Transcript
Speaker: When people find out that somebody is trans or non-binary, ah there's often a sense of very strong curiosity. And trans and non-binary people are often asked all sorts of bizarre questions that most of the time there's no bad intention behind them. But I would say most of it is often people may not realize how intrusive a lot of those questions actually are. And so today, kai has given me free reign to ask...
Speaker: All of them. What was the thought behind this episode? Because it was your idea, even if you don't remember it. Yeah, I think it's just really important to have people have an experience of those questions. Because I think sometimes when people in person ask the question, it's the first time and they haven't really thought it through and just kind of comes out. right And they haven't kind of Yeah.
Speaker: it well before the spontaneous response is explaining why ah for each of the questions. Trans and non-binary folks are not really wild about responding to these questions, how it puts them in an awkward position, or just go through the detail of for each question, there's kind of specific nuances that I'll explain. And then i will either spontaneously, and Elle does not know about how I'll respond, oh god answer either answer or
Speaker: I might decline and say, you know, a whole number of things, but then you can see how somebody might decline as well. So there's a few different angles to this that I thought would be really interesting for audience members. And so hopefully that's an interesting and compelling episode.
Speaker: I feel, I was telling Kai ah before we started recording this, I feel really shy today about this. I think it's because ah I'm asking all the questions that a younger version of me would have been desperate to ask.
Speaker: First of all, first of all, ah if if somebody if somebody had stood in front of me and said, hey, I'm trans, ask me any question you can think of, I'd have been like, ka-ching i've won the lottery yeah so ah but yeah i'm feeling a little bit shy maybe it's going against my instincts so um i don't know how i'll react either but funny that i don't know the answers to them or i don't know what answers you're going get at least i don't either too right now oh really i'm gonna make it spontaneous for me it's gonna be so interesting
Speaker: Okay, so the first question I have to ask, Kai, this is the question that everybody who wants to know. How have you had the surgery? The surgery. The, singular, just one. And that's it all time. Yeah, so I'll explain first why this is...
Speaker: Probably the top least favorite question among trans and non-binary. Not that we've done extensive surveying, but I've heard people say that this is, they got on repeat.
Speaker: I also have received this question on repeat, especially early days of coming out. People are very curious. um And for many cisgender folks, gender and body are just intertwined. They're almost interchangeable, right? A woman is this because of the body she has. A man is this because of... So, you know, I know where it comes from, but... um For a lot of trans and non-binary folks, they're either considering surgery and waiting for it. Maybe it's really pressing and it's difficult to talk about it. Others are not going to take have any surgery, and this is not a part of their plan, and so it's very presumptuous of somebody to expect somebody to have surgery. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: um There's a whole variety of things. It's a very personal, very private matter um that entails sex organs, right? And it's just not everybody's cup of tea to talk about that with people that either don't know well, maybe even strangers. Like I've been asked by strangers about my genitals. That's crazy. That's bananas, right? So yeah. So this this is part of the background of have you had the surgery? Now, also one other last thing, the, there is no one surgery.
Speaker: right There's many different types of procedures that are available to folks, upper and lower surgeries, hormone replacement therapies, of facial feminization, laser hair removal, et cetera.
Speaker: ah etc We could go on. i'm right Yeah. And so I think many people are curious. um and I think many people when they get education from myself or other facilitators that are trans, they almost expect us to go into this kind of detail. And perhaps are a little hesitant to attend because they're like, we don't want to talk about bodies at work, right? Yeah. And so i will say, given that we're in a workplace context, that I'm going to decline responding to that, mainly because it feels very personal to me. And also, interestingly enough, while very important to me, is a little bit more distant. It's not something I actively think about day to day. Like I've had this surgery and therefore I am. It's like more like. Right, right, right.
Speaker: I'm comfortable in my body. It's amazing. I'm so exciting. i have had procedures. Maybe that's the extent to which I'll speak to it. And they have made me feel really good. And in my own body, I feel at home. And they were very important to me. So I think I'll keep it at that. And I think there's ways to kind of respectfully decline too.
Speaker: Now, Not everybody might be respectful or or have the capacity to decline and may feel a bit on edge or frustrated and may respond in a more strong way. And that's okay too, because it's understandable, given how private that question is.
Speaker: For sure. I think a lot of the time people don't really register how private that question is. And and we have a podcast episode dedicated just to that one question because it comes up surprisingly often, whether you're in work or not. And also, ah there's so many layers to what is being asked with that. So yeah, we've got, I'll link that in the show notes as well, because some people are nosy. Fair.
Speaker: Of course, already made the point that there are multiple surgeries that people can have, but usually people are mostly focusing on genitals. And so with that, people then will immediately leap to, how do you have sex?
Speaker: Oh, yeah. And people ask this in all contexts. Oh, yeah. I think some people are like, are you sure people would hold back, right? And just certain settings if they really know somebody well. No, complete strangers. Yeah.
Speaker: It's wild. Anywho, so yeah, ah sexuality and how you have sex, like those are very common questions. People want to know kind of people sometimes are mechanical, right? Okay, like, how does is this all fit together? and um want to be able to map things onto folks so that they have a clearer idea.
Speaker: i This, as you can appreciate, or most can appreciate, is very personal question. Like, just imagine if you're not trans yourself, getting that kind of question asked of you. And maybe you have. And it's like, felt you felt the deep inappropriateness of it It's like, how is this relevant? Why do you need to know?
Speaker: what's this for, right? um and you know sometimes people say in the name of understanding, wanting to, but unfortunately just because somebody is in front of you that could answer this question doesn't mean that you need to ask this question to them specifically, right? I think people sometimes confuse that a bit and just saying, yeah, it's okay to be curious, but where do I direct that curiosity a really important secondary question. um So we're not dissuading people from being curious. It's just like, there are proper places to get this information, right? um
Speaker: And people will have varying levels of comfort in responding to this. Some are quite open about right their sex life. And, you know, if somebody else is interested, off you go, right? Like, um No problem there.
Speaker: ah In terms of, for me personally, I tend to obviously not talk about mechanics, because that's something between myself and my partner. um But I will talk about sexuality. like That's, I think, really relevant for folks to understand that just because I don't have certain anatomy doesn't mean that i'm not that or that I'm not a particular sexual orientation. So, for example, there are trans men who are gay, so they are attracted to other men. And I think some people just that can't quite fit that together, because they're getting stuck on the anatomy piece.
Speaker: or what they were born at at birth to as well, right? Even if they've had gender-affirming surgeries. And so I think it is important. Now, I'm not a gay man, but I'm bisexual. And that's where sometimes people get confused that when I'm with a man, some people have misinterpreted that as a straight relationship when actually it's a queer relationship. It's between two men, right? Right. And then when I'm with a woman, some people misinterpret that as me being in a lesbian relationship. And so this is where there's a lot of conflation happening. And I'm really happy to talk about sexual orientation and how I experienced that and, you know, how it's evolved to. And sometimes gender, at least coming out, can be part of that process of of understanding of of who I'm attracted to, you know, and who I'm inclined towards. So, yeah, that's what I'll say about that. And I'll skip the ah the how how do I have sex question. everybody the details. I know. I was like, meh. Give us all the juicy deets. I want to put it in my next romantic novel. No, that's on the Patreon. no at And that's the thing, though, that like there are people very keen to talk about it. If you go onto YouTube, there are plenty of people who are very, very open to discussing ah how they have sex, the mechanics of it, like in a lot of details. So being presented with a trans person in front of you isn't the opportunity to go and dive into that because you can get... more
Speaker: ah more information than you could ever dream of on YouTube. Oh, and people are, know, kind of sharing it in multiple videos with many different aspects. You know, people wonder, okay, how do you handle this situation? What about that? And, you know, there's all kinds of devices that can support trans and non-binary folks. and of course cisgender folks too in that and so this is chronicled actually in in ways that are really insightful and can kind of expand our understanding of what's possible with bodies and i think that's a really beautiful thing and i'm glad that people have shared that and there's a time and a place for that and i think if people are really interested in that they can find it on youtube in a way that's thoughtful it's not like the sensationalized you know porno adjacent thing it's actually really instructional and educational so uh-huh i think that's the one that really threw me and i was in a previous relationship of mine i was with a trans guy and i didn't I knew that that was a question people asked, but I didn't quite grasp how often it was being asked and in what detail people were expecting answers. And then the sort of surprise that you might not want to answer in detail. it's just i really That kind of threw me when when that was going on. so That's so uncomfortable like in those situations where you having to decline. And you make a good point that many people feel entitled to the answer.
Speaker: And that's a really big alarm bell when people kind of insist on the information um and can really put somebody, kind of back somebody into a corner where it's like, yo, I don't want to get into this. Like,
Speaker: now or ever, right? um Or maybe at a different time, like just the graciousness of being like, you can, I mean, i advise people to be sensitive about the questions they ask, but if they do ask a question somebody declines to respect that decline, because there's probably a really good reason for why somebody has just declined, right? And it doesn't mean that you're a bad person. It's just, that's the capacity or that's the, as far as that person wants to go. Well, sort of in the same theme then, a lot of people are very curious about dating, being trans and dating. Oh, this is a good one.
Speaker: Yeah. and Yeah. Again, people are curious. They want to understand how things happen. um Appreciating that it's maybe not, it's not on everybody's radar as they're dating. And so how do you navigate? When you disclose that you're trans?
Speaker: You know, how do you take steps to engage people and, Et cetera, et cetera. So there's a lot to it. And ah sometimes I would say, you know, we I don't know have stats on this, but I get the sense that some people are open to talking about it. But for the people who it's uncomfortable with is that part of the reason for it is it can be quite difficult to date being trans, right? There's not a lot of understanding. People get caught off guard. And in that, being caught off guard can have very negative reactions, sometimes violent, right? I would say, particularly for trans feminine folk, right?
Speaker: They get these very violent responses, particularly from cisgender men um for whom there is a, you know, struggle with homophobia, which they're misinterpreting, but that's where they go.
Speaker: And so there's just can be a lot of trauma related to to dating for folks. And so this can be a difficult question to answer and one that people don't want to get into because like how do you convey all that difficulty? And to be kind of replaying it, being reminded of it just adds to the stress that people already experience. So they may not want to go go into that detail.
Speaker: For myself, I'm happy to share about dating. I think it's interesting. I'm a social scientist, so I can't. He's a nut. know, pretty much.
Speaker: I've had a lot of dating experiences relationships. I tend to almost consider it as a bit of a puzzle, right? Something I have to kind of crack. um You know, ah hopefully we can get it to a place where we don't feel like we have to go through a maze to get, you know, a positive experience.
Speaker: um But I do date um as a, I'm a bisexual, i mentioned before, in terms of my sexuality. So I am attracted to men and women, no matter cis, trans, etc. And I find, you know, it's interesting to date cisgender women, because oftentimes, it's not on their radar. um They don't quite understand trans or maybe haven't had much experience. And so it can kind of recoil. And so that's not a lot of fun. And then there are queer and gay men that, you know, I have also dated. And there, there's at least understanding for the most part. But there can be a bit of hesitation. And so just kind of working through that could be really interesting. um People kind of ask, well, are who who are you more attracted to? i don't have that. i'm I'm pretty equally attracted. And so that dating experience has been really rich, but also very challenging in that regard.
Speaker: That's fine. Can I ask you to talk about, you can decline it. Data. Yes. I want to talk about your data that when you were dating. Nobody's going to date me after this. I don't want to be a stat. Sorry, i'm I'm ruining Kai's dating life by bringing this up. But he mentioned that he's a nerd and he's been quite coy about that because he's not just a nerd. He's super an uber nerd.
Speaker: ah Indeed, i am. Yeah, I mean, i i because I have quite a big experience with a people who decline, and I'm not here to say people have every right to decline in the reasons that they have. So I'm not... you know commenting on that. But of course, ever wanting to create understand patterns and what's at play and you know what are the dynamics and what should I disclose earlier or later or you know um do I provide certain information that would make it easier? you know like I'm constantly thinking about how to improve things, change management in my own dating life.
Speaker: um that i was like okay well let's let's collect a little data here and you know a little spreadsheet some graphs you know just to get an idea of what's at play and so you know this is a few years back now i don't do it anymore but i did realize that it's better to come out as bisexual ah as a first go that kind of weeds out a lot of people um I would say mainly among cisgender women, some cisgender women just not into dating bisexual women. We could have a whole thing on that.
Speaker: That's a whole nother topic. um And rather than disclosing that I'm trans on top, like there's too much. So I kind of sequence it. So I go, bye. And then if we chat and have a few dates, then I'll go into the the trans aspect as another topic. But if people are okay with dating bisexual men in particular, I find that the trans thing is a little bit easier or they're a little bit more knowledgeable. And that seems to work out much better.
Speaker: So, yeah. Mm-hmm. yay data yeah it's so funny to me that you sort of dropped that really cash though when you were like yeah you know just a couple of spreadsheets a couple of and like oh yeah like we all have that don't we we all have our dating spreadsheets what i really like also is kai's kind of my like i'll go to kai for my dating woes And I'm like, should I make one?
Speaker: I'll get you to look over it for me. Yeah, yeah. Like I'll help with like it'll be a master class dating spreadsheets, how to leverage the patterns for optimizing your dating experience.
Speaker: New idea. Is that a new branch for Trans Focus? Yeah, absolutely. Got to help the people. Well, thank you for letting me ask that. Well done. need to overcome your nervousness. And now you'll just start to ask that everywhere. You're like, I'm comfortable now. Thank you.
Speaker: um One of the questions that comes up a lot, which I think can be maybe seen as um sort of politely showing interest, is ah how did you know that you were trans?
Speaker: Yeah, also a really important question to look at. Of course, it depends on how much you know somebody. Obviously, the closer somebody is and you know the more that this person is sharing with you, that there is a place, a time and a place for that type of question. So it's not always going to be universally disliked, like perhaps have you had their surgery. and But for some trans and non-binary folks, it can be an uncomfortable question, especially if they don't know somebody very well. um It can be very, it could potentially be a painful story for them to share. with trauma mixed in there that depending on time and context, they're just not wanting to go into all of that storytelling. And also for some, it can be quite complicated, right? Because societal expectations, it takes long to kind of un- wind everything and reassemble it to where one is fully authentic. And for some, it might not be finished either, right? They may have clarified some aspects, but there's still some lingering questions. And so this type of question can feel kind of loaded for them. And so that's some of the context for being a little bit more cautious or sensitive around this type of question.
Speaker: For myself, personally, I feel comfortable answering it because I know you very well, Elle, and just pretending we don't have an audience. If it was just you one-on-one, I'd be more than happy to go into that. And even with an audience, I'm happy to share um that, you know, for me, i was about nine or 10. So just as I was starting to approach puberty, I started to fully more fully understand myself and Now, did I have the words trans boy and transgender? No. But I knew that I wasn't in the right body. And also, I would have dreams about being a boy or older ah being a man. um You know, not just dressing different ways, but like being ah fully embodied as a man.
Speaker: And so these things came up early. i also wanted to dress in different ways and, you know, mostly had um guy friends um and also ah just the types of activities I was in. Of course, those independently don't make somebody a particular gender, right right? Any gender can participate in those things and, or be those things or dress in those ways. But for me, that was what I was reaching for through expression or activity or, you know, whatnot. So it showed up pretty early for me. But given where society was at, it was very hard to express that. And so it took me a lot longer and
Speaker: Especially with messaging from society, you should be this way. I tried my hardest. it Didn't quite make it, but did try my hardest. I also think that question can almost delegitimize a lot of trans people's experiences in the sense that for you, you knew when you were quite young, but a lot of people really don't know until they're much later. Maybe they get a sense that something is not quite... yeah right but they don't actually know until until they're much older even in some cases um and just because of societal expectations and messaging and all of this not having the language not having the experience not seeing it represented so for someone to say oh they knew from a very young age it's like oh that counts but maybe if somebody didn't notice when they were or didn't realize until they were much older sometimes that answer is, it almost delegitimizes some people's experiences. If you're if you're not getting the answer you, in quotes, want or is the correct answer.
Speaker: Or expect, right? You know, because there can be a kind of a predominant narrative that's in society based on movies or TV, but that doesn't capture the range that exists. And but depending on what context this question is asked, if it's, you know, a quick question kind of,
Speaker: You know, that people want to soundbite. Like, how much could you summarize about, for me, 46 years of experience? It's just really hard. Even in this right know little bit, I was like, okay, what parts am I going tell? going to put together. Right. You know, like it kind of puts somebody on the spot versus if it's part of a larger hangout and you have time to kind of go into the detail and maybe you have a few goes at it so that somebody can flesh that out. I think that puts a little bit less pressure on the individual.
Speaker: h That's fair. Well, my next question is one again that comes up and well, definitely from trans people that I know is asked all the time. um Again, sort of framed as a like a polite interest in someone, but again, is it can be really tense. And so that question is, when did you transition?
Speaker: Yes, another good one. It's like how, where, when, why, what. We're recovering all of it. So yeah, this is also a really important one to take a closer look at. And it seems benign on the surface, like we're just yeah inquiring. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: yeah, we're we're we're wanting to get to know somebody. And for sure, some people, that's no problem and no issue to to answer that kind of question, especially within the context of a deeper relationship.
Speaker: um But for many, the when, i think you were already, you you kind of pointed at it in your last response, Elle, in that some people, it takes a while to figure all this out.
Speaker: And the when question is loaded with, Like, you know, especially if somebody responds later on in their life, it's like, well, why did it take you so long? And then if somebody comes out really early, it's like, whoa, that's true. That's way too early, right? So the when can just like, elicit these responses that can't. can be awkward to handle if somebody thinks it's too early or too late or whatnot. It's just like there can be a lot embedded in that. Even if somebody doesn't intend to create that kind of expectation or pressure or whatnot, it's just when it's loaded. Um, and like, from my own experience, I mentioned that I knew from an early age, but it wasn't until I was 33 years old that I did anything with it. So there's this huge gap, um, that for many might be baffling. Like, how could you not do anything until, you know, decades later, like what's going on? And some people can question, like, are you really trans if you didn't do anything earlier? Not realizing that there's just so many layers. For me, there were religious layers that I had to unpack, the societal messaging that I had to undo. There's just really strong expectations to be the gender that you were assigned at birth, full stop.
Speaker: And Some people are able to manage those easier than others, but that's not to discount their identity at the end of the day. So that's where the when can really be complicated for folks. Also, if it's okay to add on the when thing, is that people um maybe sometimes look at transition as like one specific point that you then reach. And then so you like, oh, I transitioned on the 31st of o October, October. and then I'm done like it's sort of there isn't really well at least for a lot of people that I've spoken to there doesn't seem to be like a point where we can say okay i have now transitioned past tense like it's that complete and done and so there is that too of like what do what do you say then you know
Speaker: You're like, I am an ongoing creation. So so check back in a few whatevers um and we'll continue to talk. But yeah, you're right. It's just, it's not a definitive moment. um You know, some people might create definitiveness by saying i came out and told my family or, you know, I started h r t ah hormone replacement therapy, right? Right. So people can anchor into different places and that's for them transition. But you're right. For many, it's a continuous evolution and or it's a continuous coming out process, I would say, particularly for non-binary folks for whom. in our society we sadly don't have as much awareness context and practice and so that then forces that person to continuously have to disclose to get any sort of recognition or respect so yeah definitely part of it so when yikes there's a lot there yeah so definitely proceed with caution but You also sort of hinted at another question, which was when you talked about ah the things that you were unpacking with religious background and things like that.
Speaker: And the question that a lot of people ask is, what was it like to transition? And again, it seems on the surface a pretty harmless question. Yeah. And the presumption usually is like, it was awesome, right? And it's not to say that it can't be, but it's usually ah ah mixed bag of things and can tip towards the traumatic, give it societal stigma that we still unfortunately have and in some places is increasing. And so this, what was it like, you know, while an open-ended question, which is lovely, and we do support open-ended questions, it can bring up all this stuff. And sometimes, you know, trans people and non-binary folks will kind of focus on one aspect of it and just share what what they want. and leave the rest as more of a private matter. So people can make their own decisions or just completely decline to respond to the question at all. um But I think it does put an expectation and a weight on that person. And if somebody, the person who asked the question has particular notions of what it ought to be, and that's not what they hear, then that can create a another dynamic that can be tricky. um
Speaker: But in terms of answering it, so I explained why some trans people may not be excited about it. But I am certainly happy to respond to that one in that for me, um you know, there were difficult aspects of coming out to the people in my life. And for them, they it wasn't on their radar and they were caught off guard and You know, it took ah a beat for them, maybe even more than a few beats to wrap their answer in. I know. It's very vague.
Speaker: Years um to to kind of come to terms with that. And what I mean by coming to terms is you know using my chosen name and pronouns. Some people, it's very easy to do name. The pronouns was a bit more of a struggle. um And certainly some of the choices I made around how i was going to change my body were alarming ah to some and were hard to digest and so i think it was hard to to witness that i understood given how you know perhaps they didn't have as much time to process as i did how it could be alarming to them and also because they're comfortable in their own bodies right so yeah It doesn't make sense to change bodies, but they don't live in my body or in other trans and non-binary folks' bodies to be able to understand that distress that one experiences, myself included. And so there was that challenge of, you know, being with people who are having, in some cases, difficult responses and none that I hold against them, right? Like I i actually get it Um, and some people felt like they had to have like a a funeral for me, right. To, to let the old person kind of go away, even though I'm still the same person. And do you mean that, do you mean that literally or figuratively? Literally. Yeah.
Speaker: he I mean, i I don't think they went through with it, um but, you know, they did want kind of grieve the person that they had imagined. How about that?
Speaker: And so there was that talk. wow But what was it like ah kind of setting that piece aside? For me, personally, it was a like and still is a euphoric thing.
Speaker: So it was fantastic. a complete release of something that I had kind of tamped down, held close to my chest and, you know, kind of forced down. And once you finally release it, I had so much extra energy. Finally, i was able to show up fully at work and with my friends and family. And, um, i i think I've already told this story many times now. I don't know if it bears repeating, but so much joy. i needed to exclaim in music. I was going to prompt you for this. Unprompted. Don't worry. i had to make My favorite Kai story. Right. had to make awkward trumpet sounds. I learned to play the trumpet because I just needed to get out all this joyful energy. And yeah, it was it was a very, very special moment in my life and ah has been huge change for my mental health and well being and whatnot. And yeah, as I said, I finally feel at home in my body as well.
Speaker: So very, very beautiful. That's so great. And you you talked about there about ah sort of requesting other people to use your chosen name and pronouns. And so that leads me on to the next question that is often asked ah from a point of ah curiosity, which was yeah it was it's sometimes framed in several ways. So what was your previous name or what was your what is your real name?
Speaker: Yes. Ooh, that's a good one. It's um one that ah trans and non-binary folks really struggle with. And again, I don't think people mean ill will usually. i mean, there can be some um kind of hostile players who are trying to provoke. um But for the most part, it's just people who haven't thought it through. It's very akin to um adopted people or people who are adopted and people saying, who is your real family, right? Right. um Right.
Speaker: usually ah people who are adopted feel that their real family is their current family the ones that adopted them and so very similarly ah for trans people their real name is their current name and and Also to go and ask about somebody's past name, the one they were given usually at birth, is can be a fairly painful question. um Oftentimes the misunderstanding about what somebody's gender was tightly interwoven with somebody's first name is where the problems kind of began, right? Right, and right.
Speaker: If you think about how many times we use somebody's names, I mean, by the time somebody figures something out about their gender and needing to take steps to adjust that, um their name has been, their past name has been used thousands of times, right? More, who knows, maybe millions. um So,
Speaker: that's where that discomfort comes. That it can be for some distressing to talk about their past name or even have it referenced by other people. So, and definitely it's not their real name.
Speaker: Their real name is their current name. So there's a few things there that are interesting. less than ideal and certainly this is not my leading question to trans and non-binary folks i generally take the lead of the trans person some trans people like want to share their past name but they feel neutral towards their past name and don't feel any distress and so we'll share you know it used to be this now i'm that um famously in newspaper articles um this is a big favorite right of like Used to be Tom is now Tanya kind of vibes. So as a way to say this is a trans person rather than just being like this trans woman goes by, you know.
Speaker: Anywho, for me personally, in terms of answering this question, it is something that I am uncomfortable with. So in this instance, i I am going to decline to respond to that question. I will add one little tidbit. In choosing my own name, I did decide to keep the first two letters of my past name as a way to honor that and then finished my own with the i um So i there is part of my past name incorporated into my current name as a way to honor that beginning that my parents gave me. So um that was like a thoughtful thing that I wanted to do. ah So there is some aspect of my past name for within my current name.
Speaker: You've given us a sneak peek there. Yeah, but just exactly. Chop the end off so nobody knows still. It'll be a mystery. It's good to have some mysteries in life.
Speaker: That's fun. um Well, thank you so much. The last one, I don't really, the last one, we had a kind of list of questions that I was going to bring up, ah just like the common ones. And the last one that we have written down is one that I don't really know how to lead on to.
Speaker: So ah I will just throw it in there, which is a lot of people are very curious about what goes on in washrooms. They're curious about whether or not you're using the men's washroom, whether or not you're using the women's washroom, whether or not it was difficult or what that process was like for you doing making the switch um if you made the switch I guess ah for whoever we're talking to or about um so yeah I was wondering if you could go into that too hu So I'll start with the preface of why some trans people won't want to answer this question or there'll be some sensitivity to it is that perhaps they're still in the process of figuring that out.
Speaker: That's a really tough one. um I would say particularly for non-binary folks, people are really curious, like, where do you go? What's up? What's going on? And they kind of want to know even as a way to direct them to the proper one. Right. So it's like it's it's kind of like a lot to rather than just offering all the options and they go wherever they need to. Hopefully you your organization or you as an individual have options available for them.
Speaker: Now, ah what other reasons might someone not want to just, it's a personal thing. And it's kind of like, well, what does that, how does that functionally change things? It's not a really a practical matter. I mean, the only one is if people think they need to direct folks, but they don't need to. Yeah. And the other one, there's, again, similar to what you said, there's tons of YouTube videos where people go on about their experiences with washrooms. um And just washrooms are a bit of a flashpoint right now. So people can be a little bit exhausted about this topic in general. It's like,
Speaker: first I'm just a human. I'm trying to go somewhere, you know, like, can I, can I do it in peace? Right. So I just want to be sensitive with this question. For me, very briefly, i am happy to answer this question because i think it's a really important one where it can shed differences between two, the two washrooms. But also for me, what I want to convey is that,
Speaker: People often think, oh, it's just really easy to go into any washroom. um And actually, there's this invisible societal line that's been drawn that you can feel it. Like the first time I went into a men's washroom, I was like...
Speaker: I so you know felt like I was breaking the law. you know say And it's not because I didn't feel like I fit in there. it just, I felt like you know the police were going to descend SWAT team and ta-da-da-da, something bad was going to happen because of this like mental thing that we have created, that there's this division. um and so it's it's enforced. like It's solid. And I think people think people can just easily do it and it's actually not the case. I have a really, really strong memory of when I was in school and our friend in my friendship group went to the wrong bathroom by accident, didn't realize, went into the men's washroom, went, used it and came back out again. And we were all collapsed in laughter because we couldn't believe how hilarious it was that that she'd gone into the wrong washroom. And so it's this like, there's nothing actually inherently funny or weird about it. She just went and used the washroom and then left again. But we have created this such rigid, like who is supposed to go into that, that for us as like, you know, 14 year old yeah girls, it was the funniest thing you could ever imagine. And we found it hilarious. So it's just like so rigid about where people belong and where people do not belong.
Speaker: Yeah. And enforced in such strong ways. Right. In this case, it's kind of hilarity. Other cases, people can be, ah you know, really out of sorts, uh, about it. And, um, I just, I found that really powerful. Obviously that's not at play for me anymore. Right. Um, and yeah, it's no big deal.
Speaker: Change rooms are a little bit different, um, uh, for me, but, um, people also are often interested in how people use washrooms you don't need to go into that we haven't put that as a question if you don't want to but there is a lot of like curiosity in the mechanics of pretty much everything regarding trans people and so it's always interesting when that comes up too with water washrooms Yeah, true. Like whether it's the what kind of features or how one does it, right? Like people don't think about the difference between standing and sitting to urinate, right? And so that's kind of kind of people curious about that, right?
Speaker: And sometimes can be a bit of a backdoor question to so to surgery and or bodies, right? us for to the first question, yeah. Right? There's a lot of ways people will will reach that question. That is the number one question though, no? Yeah, yeah, we gotta know. Everyone wants to know what's going on down there.
Speaker: yeah That's so funny. There's a lot of different, very creative questions out there, but not all of them are fun to answer. Well, I'm really grateful for you answering them or declining to answer them so graciously today for this episode. and Hopefully that's given a little bit of a flavor as to why some trans people are not interested in answering or feel uncomfortable about answering them. But also, even if they do answer them, why those questions are not ah maybe advisable to ask. yeah Yeah, not starting with it. That's for sure. lead with the Don't lead with the genitals. Come on. No, no, no, no. Much further down the line, if at all. um
Speaker: But yeah, hopefully people can also appreciate the kind of witnessing of a decline as well, right? It doesn't have to be a big moment. And to graciously receive that information and not make it a big deal.
Speaker: We do have a resource on invasive questions and sort of like a mini guide as to to that topic, um which I will link in the show notes. And we also, we've been doing this podcast now for a little while. And so we're super curious about what people think about it. If you have any feedback, if you have any other topics that you would like us to cover um or just your general thoughts, we're really curious about how it's being received. So I have a link that I'll add in the show notes as well for questions. a survey a really quick survey that you could do we'd be so grateful if you could do that it would really give us a good uh kind of measure and guidance to next steps with our pod yeah we we would be so grateful and excited i love data so give me data it who Cool. Thank you so much, Kai. Yeah, thank you too. I know that was a little bit more of a stretch there to ask those some of those questions. Well, I would word them differently if we were not being watched by others. so i like feeling shy about it.
Speaker: I was way more sensitive, conscientious than was depicted in this episode. Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker: Yeah. Bye for now. See next week.
