Transcript
Speaker: At Transfocus, we help organizations build workplaces that are truly inclusive for trans and non-binary people and hiring is one of the places that can often get really overlooked. So I am delighted as always to be joined by Kai to discuss what trans and non-binary candidates actually experience when going through the hiring process and some little tips as to how we can improve that.
Speaker: So ah hello Kai, how are you doing? I'm doing well, how about yourself? i'm Doing so well, thank you. I'm feeling a little bit scrambled because Kai's just dropped a thing on me.
Speaker: Surprise element. He's dropped a surprise a bit of work on my plate, which I'm happy to take on and it's going to be cool and I'll be fine. But I'm feeling scrambled now. I wasn't expecting it.
Speaker: ah So ah i'm my brain is not quite catching up with my mouth. So let's see how we do with this episode today. Mm-hmm. um So I wanted to start off with maybe like a common scenario that you've seen when it comes to hiring trans and non-binary people because I can imagine that there's a lot of things, there's a lot of elements that maybe HR teams wouldn't have even considered when it comes like i I can imagine the thought process is, oh we want to hire trans and non-binary people so let's just hire and trans and non-binary people without actually going into what that looks like and what that means and all these other steps that are probably necessary. Yeah, this is good to kind of get in the headspace of a scenario, right? Because virtually it can be kind of theoretical to folks who are listening if they're working in ah HR or in some sort of leadership capacity. But just imagine you're in either hiring committee or
Speaker: You're an ah HR and a qualified candidate comes to you and they're doing a background check, which in some instances is a routine part of the hiring process. It's part of due diligence. It's totally understandable. But they tell you that their current name doesn't reflect what's on their government issued ID.
Speaker: And so... As part of the background check, the the provider that does that, it's usually not the company. It's maybe a police department or a background check provider, and they don't know how to handle the situation.
Speaker: And you're kind of caught in the mix of it. And you're like, okay, what do I do? And it's just asking yourself if you're part of HR or leadership, if you're ready for that type of scenario, for how to handle it, to navigate it, to provide options to support the trans or non-binary applicant.
Speaker: yeah I can imagine that must really throw a lot of people is that something that in the work that you've done with trans focus has that come up a lot or is it something that um maybe like sorry what I'm asking is about preemptively like are people considering this before they come into the hiring process or is it like this has happened and now they're like oh god I don't know what to do I wouldn't have thought of this Right. Typically we find when we ask organizations and of course we don't ask everybody, but depending on the context, we're inquiring about this kind of thing. And typically we find organizations that is just totally not on their radar. Right.
Speaker: Perhaps people listening to this, they realize, oh, wait a second, I don't even know how to handle this situation. And they're caught off guard. And that's the problem. like People really want to be like intentional and inclusive and supportive. But when this situation arises, they're just stumped. and right Not a great place to be for anyone involved if there's no preparation or things put in place to ensure that there's a smooth process around this unique occurrence, right?
Speaker: I feel like you might have just answered this, but I wanted to ask anyway, just in case there's an extra layer to the question, to the answer, sorry. But you've just said there about how, like a lot of organizations really come into this with some really good values. They really want to be inclusive. They have inclusive policies. they're very well meaning when it comes to recruitment and would never intentionally harm a trans person in in this process and yet still end up putting trans people in a really difficult spot when it comes to that application process and so how how what I wanted to ask was how that happens and
Speaker: Like what it means when we say that having the right intentions just isn't quite enough. Yeah, that's the thing. I think most people think, oh, I'm i'm inclusive. My organization's inclusive. We're we're done. We're set.
Speaker: And whenever somebody comes in the door, then we'll, um you know, treat them respectfully. And that's fantastic and is certainly an important part of it. But unfortunately, just because you think inclusively or have a, you know, inclusive minded approach doesn't mean that the kind of real life practical things that need to be in place aren't in place and then cause some of those troubles um one of which we mentioned as kind of a scenario to start us off with um but that's where it's really important to understand some of the cultural dynamics in terms of how we interact with and on another from the organizational kind of the systems pieces the spaces and those often are missing from
Speaker: people's awareness or even any preparation towards that. So you can have all the inclusive values and policies, but if you're not kind of haven't thought through the hiring process from start to finish, then likely you will have a few things that act as barriers, even though that's not that's not intentionally set there for them, but it just by virtue of how things have been set up um comes to bear.
Speaker: So you've you've mentioned that, you know, a lot of the time organizations don't really think about this until a trans or non-binary person is in front of them and has hit upon a snag, I guess, or is confronted with with an issue. But you've also said that a lot of applicants, trans or non-binary applicants, are coming in, kind of assessing whether or not an organization is prepared for them in the first place. And, you know,
Speaker: This is before an organization might have any idea that they are trans or even before a trans person even the hits send on their on their application. And so what what are trans people picking up on or what are trans people looking for when they're looking to see if a place is inclusive?
Speaker: Yeah, there's so many different things that trans and non-binary applicants are absorbing when determining whether an organization is inclusive or considerate of their unique needs. And it could be a whole set of things, maybe some very subtle things, and then perhaps some more obvious things that kind exist along a spectrum. And people are really, whether it's, you know, um, a toolkit or an inclusion policy or whether benefits are provided or mentioned at all and that include gender affirming care. Also things like education sessions on the topic of gender diversity, whether they have inclusive washrooms that have been
Speaker: you know shared, not just that they have them, but that they also describe them so people can prepare properly if they're coming in person to interview. And so, um yeah, it's not just um whether an or whether they want to work at an organization, they're having to assess the safety of that organization and are grabbing for any little clues and to to determine that and that can often be a part of yeah whether or not a trans or non-binary person applies to an organization at all if these things aren't at play.
Speaker: So when when Trans Focus goes into an organization to figure out where things have been breaking down, where are some sort of common places that these problems tend to show up, I guess? And and what can HR be asking themselves to see if they're ready to be handling a trans applicant?
Speaker: Yeah, we definitely encourage organizations, whether they do their own assessment or, you know, get support with an assessment, is to ask themselves whether they're ready for a few different types of scenarios. Usually we find find those show up in five different areas. But, you know, some hiring related questions can be things like, does the application form that Trans applicant fill out have sufficient gender information available enough categories for folks to respond to in a comfortable way. Does the information system distinguish between ah somebody's legal name versus their chosen first name those that
Speaker: Oftentimes trans people have two different names and the one that they want to be referred to is their chosen name, not the name on their legal ID. Communicating with trans applicants is really important to think through, especially the use of titles. Mr. Ms. Mrs. Usually don't have a gender neutral option like MX. programs and procedures, how applicants feel that they can address issues that arise in the hiring process. Who do they talk to? How do they bring these things up? Will they be received well? um And then finally, ah it's very practical, but you know, when somebody comes to an in-person interview, what kinds of facilities in terms of washrooms are available to them? So these are some of the questions you can ask. Do I have all these things? And if not, or if you're not sure, then this is a very important thing to think through to make that a smoother process.
Speaker: Okay, let's go back to what you were talking about at the beginning with the background check as and as an example, because um I think there's a lot in that. And you mentioned how most organizations are not really doing those background checks themselves. They're hiring either an outside company to do it or the police or whoever it is to to do those background checks. um What specific things can go wrong there for trans and non-binary people, but also what people who are working in ah HR may not have thought about and then who's handling that backlash, I guess?
Speaker: Yeah, so the scenario I started with is a really good example of just some of the the challenges that trans and non-binary folks face that are just not on people's radars, um including folks at age in hr And basically, if somebody's legal name is different from their chosen name, which is high percentage of trans and non-binary folks, then any situation in which they go to a third-party provider um to do a background check, then they encounter
Speaker: you know, systems where they're not prepared to interact with them in a respectful way. And typically what ends up happening is that that gets reflected, like the the reputation of the company gets dragged into that. Because usually, especially if the company is prepared, they're doing things well, right? They're respectfully using...
Speaker: the chosen name. and But then when they go to the police department and they're not ready or they're not trained, unfortunately that person gets misgendered. They can typically get misnamed. um ah They could even, if somebody says, this is actually my name, there could be instances where now they're a bit suspicious of this person, right? And things can go downhill pretty quickly. And I would say there's also intersectional issues, especially with background checks. There is fingerprinting um that happens often, especially at the police department.
Speaker: And of course, that's part of it is running through the criminal check and whatnot. But unfortunately for some trans and non-binary folks, particularly i would say people of color who are trans, they have had you know awful interactions, discriminatory interactions with the police. And so that kind of having to take that background check is actually a huge effort and can cause emotional distress to to go to a police department. And so these are some of the things that are at play that oftentimes companies are just completely unaware of and don't understand the sensitivity of what they're requesting. I'm not suggesting that you don't do background checks, but just to be even aware that somebody could be distressed by having to take this step um can allow for either a few different options available to them or for somebody to take advanced steps to smooth that pathway to make simple.
Speaker: intrusive, ah ah less intrusive as possible or least intrusive as possible. For sure. Yeah, that must be a lot. And it kind of, don't know, it makes me think about how this is true of kind of every aspect that trans and non-binary people are facing or everybody's facing, I guess, when it comes to the hiring process. Like you're not, like a candidate isn't just dealing with one person when it comes to this. They're going through the job postings, the applicant, you know, those tracking systems for applicants. They're recruitment. maybe a recruiter a hiring manager an interview panel references background checks I don't know like payroll whatever it is there's so many people and then if you've got like a sort of chain where everybody's getting it right and it feels really great and then in one aspect whether it's in in any of those it can really just throw the whole system and just change the whole process for the person who's being who's in this orderly yeah
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. And that's the kind of ah another area that we have found, kind of the issue of handoff. If you've got a multi-step process that, you know, much of it you have worked on and refined and made more inclusive to trans and non-binary applicants through, you know, a thoughtful process, but then you're you're only good as the weakest link, right? Right, right, right.
Speaker: if you're passing it off to a third party provider that you don't have insight into their process, that's where it could falter among other steps, right? So it's really understanding kind of the the chain of that different steps or people that an applicant interacts with to to better understand how to, you know, have each step understand what's at play for trans and non-binary folks and also to reach out to providers to see how well they're equipped or ready for that. Perhaps they are and that's fantastic. Perhaps they aren't and are like, whoa, we've never thought of this, which is a very typical response, unfortunately. So so I can imagine.
Speaker: I wanted to ask you about this court case um from Quebec. I think it's it's Lucky Bar 7. So this is where someone wasn't hired because the employer was concerned about how customers might react to a trans employee. And so can you walk us through what happened and like what what we can take from that? Because I don't think it's not just discrimination is illegal, because I would imagine most HR people know that already. But there's there's so many layers in that.
Speaker: Yeah, in this particular case, um I think some employers would almost agree with this person's approach, right? That out of consideration or concern for a trans applicant, they didn't think that this environment would be conducive to a supportive environment for trans and non-binary folks. um But that's actually kind of ah the the important way of thinking about it is that all employers are responsible for creating a safe environment. And that's where the judge ultimately landed is that it's up to the employer to create that culture within both their clients and their employees to better support people. And so This is where there's a kind of a bit more nuance there that organizations should be aware of and that this has already been tested in court. So again, we're not going to go into a long legal lecture, even though I'm big legal nerd. But yeah.
Speaker: It's just important for ah HR and employers to understand their legal responsibilities as part of the hiring process. And that has already come up in the courts. That concern is not enough, right? Right.
Speaker: Kind of employers need to go beyond concern. and actually look at the underlying culture and or the structures or systems and work on those. Even if it takes time to develop those, it's still, concern's not the end of the story, right?
Speaker: And i can appreciate that, you know, certain settings are a little bit more difficult for trans and non-binary folks, but that's not the end of the story. It's kind of like, employers can say well that's that's it right yeah you need to invest in change yeah right I see so this this trans person wasn't hired because the company was trying to in theory look out for them and say like our clients are not gonna get it they're not gonna react well to seeing a trans person and instead of doing something about that
Speaker: They just didn't hire the trans person. Yes, right that's exactly it And, ah you know, they were worried about the clientele misgendering this visibly trans person um or getting verbal abuse or, you know, a whole number of different things, which could have very well been a a fair assessment, right, of the clientele, because I'm sure the bar owner knew his clientele quite well. yeah sure yeah um so But the the underlying ruling was that everyone deserves a safe workplace. And so that would require the employer to work with the clientele in order to make that a safer environment that just not hiring somebody is that's discriminatory. not a solution. yeah No. Even if it wasn't discriminatory, that you know doesn't
Speaker: It is kind of ah a lazy response to bigger issue. I can imagine that listening to this episode, people who work in HR are thinking like, oh God, i haven't thought about any of this. And now I don't know what to do. And so what would you say are some questions that um listeners or people who work in that environment can ask themselves to see, a you know, whether or not they're ready for for hiring trans and non-binary people?
Speaker: Yeah, it's really good to be able to check in to see where an organization is and to kind of have an honest assessment of where things are at before somebody comes into the door. I mean, waiting until a trans person arrives, that puts the onus on them to have to identify or make their way through these challenges. So here are kind of four rapid fire questions that you can ask yourself in your own time privately, unless you want to do a little investigation. um but basically, um what are you going to do if somebody comes with a current name that is different from what's on their ID? So where in your system is that an issue or how people refer to that person? What information are they drawing on to use their name? um Are you looking at what's on the resume versus what's put into the intake process?
Speaker: and How do you handle reference checks that are connected to a former name? Do you have options available to candidates based on that? um What should you expect from a third party background check? I know we've talked about that situation and just being ready, especially if there's kind of a chosen provider, you already have an established working relationship. Should be fairly easy to check with them, see what their process is. um What should an interviewer do if an applicant discloses that they're trans during the hiring process? What's the response? What's the and next steps beyond that disclosure? And so these are kind of four areas that you can think of as you look at your hiring process to determine if you're ready and you're ready. maybe even already have received trans applicants, which is wonderful thing. Or if you're unsure or perhaps you're not ready at all, then there's a few things to to take care of to make that a better process.
Speaker: Amazing. So if somebody is listening to this and gone, okay, I can see that I haven't realized that there's so many layers to this. And now what? We have a course that is, has recently been launched. And um I'm really excited about it. Kai and Nico, our other colleague worked so hard on it. And it's really, really cool. And I think it answers some really ah important questions. And so Kai, I was wondering if you could go into a little breakdown of what is in the course and yeah, what people can expect.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm also really excited about it because um there's just so many things that have come up in over the 10 or so years we've been working on this and people are really wanting answers and we've got a few requests from from clients for this information. So we put together a course where we go through all that, whether it's on the recruiting side of things or in the you know application process um and the kind of vetting and handling of documents. um
Speaker: And then finally, if somebody comes out during an interview process, kind of mirroring some of the questions that we had, we go through and answer those and provide not just helpful tips for how to handle in the situation, but also options to provide to the applicants because it's not just about saying, okay, this is what we do. It's actually sometimes about saying, well, you could do x y or zd um you know, what is best for you and your situation? Because of course, this isn't a cookie cutter way through it. And we want to equip organizations with the options. Some of them fairly creative and trying to help with workarounds. Others are perhaps a bit more limited, but still useful and helpful. And then also just how to cultivate sensitivity to some of the challenges that may not be familiar to somebody if they're not trans, but still to bring that sensitivity to the interaction will help unlock a lot of trust or establish a lot of trust with the applicant and actually motivate them to want to be a part of the organization even more by demonstrating those that knowledge, that awareness, and that sensitivity. And for, you know, everyone, they really appreciate the confidence that they gain from this type of course, because now you won't be caught off guard, you won't be wondering, you won't be kind of making up a a solution, kind of in it. ad hoc and quickly and kind of a little bit messy. So um yeah, I invite folks to to check out the course and I'm happy to answer any questions about it. And we also have a discount code too. So for the folks who are kind of trying out the course, yeah, we want to support them in their learning process. Well, I'll add the link in the show notes if you want that discount code that Kai mentioned for the course. It's really exciting. I'm really, I think this will really help a lot of people. So it's really cool. Did you have anything else you wanted to add before we go, Kai?
Speaker: Two things. There's also an accompanying inclusive hiring guide. So this is like a free resource for you to explore this content a little bit more, give you some sense of what's in the course as well in case you just kind of want to kind of investigate a little bit further before taking that step and then also we're very interested in hearing how people who listen to this podcast what they think of it and we're doing this kind of very brief anonymous survey that folks can fill out and that will also be in the show notes but we're just curious from hearing hearing from our audience members in terms of what works what you'd like to hear and what we could improve upon we're always taking notes from folks and we'd love to hear from you.
Speaker: Sweet. I'll add that all to the show notes. And thank you so much, Kai. Thank you so much. And bye for now. Take care. Bye.
