Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back to another episode of Gender in Focus. Today we're talking about something that a lot of people in our comments section have questions about, which is multiple pronoun use. That is when somebody uses more than one set of pronouns for themselves. So he, they, or she, he, or whatever it is, I'll use more than one pronoun. um This one's a little personal for me. i use both she and they pronouns, so I've got some skin in the game today. i am joined as always by Kai, going to get into what it actually means to use multiple pronouns, why people do it, how to get it right, all of the big ones. So how are you doing today, Kai?
Speaker: I'm doing great. Yeah, super stoked. And how about you? How are you doing? I'm doing really well, actually. Have you noticed my giant chair? Anybody who's watching, I've got the comfiest chair in the world.
Speaker: So I haven't stopped talking about it. I need to up my game. Look at this. You do, look at that boring chair. Uncomfortable and boring. Mine feels like I am sat on a sofa. I am cuddled up. When it's winter, I can't wait. And also, if you're watching this and you see here in this area of the screen,
Speaker: some ears popping up it is because i have a guest today amazing dog my one of my dogs has joined because my jet and my chair is giant basically your royalty and now have proper throne i really feel like that and as somebody who is a kind of an anti-monarchist it feels a bit sick but here for it here for it full circle full circle oh let's talk about pronouns then kai Mm hmm.
Speaker: Let's. um Okay, well, let's start at the beginning, I suppose. What does it mean when somebody lists multiple pronouns? Like, for example, for me, I use she, they. Why might somebody use two sets or three sets or however many sets more than just one?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is such an important thing. And just to establish the basis on which I am sharing, it's, you know, obviously i I know many people, yourself included, who use multiple pronouns, but we've also done quite a bit of extensive research research. So we conduct surveys among trans and non-binary folks, and we do ask about what pronouns people use and or what they would like to use, but maybe are a bit hesitant at work. So we've kind of got this ah sense of where people are going and what they're doing and what they would like and whatnot. So that's where that's coming from. You know, thousands of people that we've talked to about this through surveys. So what are multiple pronouns? You mentioned an example such as yours, but essentially it's somebody who uses two or more sets of pronouns. So what we mean by a set is like my set is he, him, his, et cetera, right? There's different variations, but it's on the same theme. But those ah but folks such as yourself use a combination of them. Now, why people do that, that's always a bit of a mystery to folks. One, they're surprised that you can do multiple sets. That's a bit of a... People didn't know that that's a thing that folks do. And then the second question is, like, why do you do that? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Often people want to understand before they execute, and I'll invite folks just to listen to these reasons and know that one or more of these are at play for folks. So the first reason that we've heard, again, from research, is that people are either bi or polygender at one time, two or more genders at one time, and they want to represent those two or more genders, right? So if somebody... is a non-binary man, they want to reflect their two ah gender identities by having he and ah they pronouns as a way to reflect that.
Speaker: So simple example. There are also folks who are gender fluid, so have different gender identities at different times, and so will want to move between those ah two and have others be able to do that as well by having two or more genders.
Speaker: There are folks who are, from what we understand from the research, integrating both their past and their current identities. So um there are folks who like, I grew up as a boy, but I'm a woman. And so I accept he and she pronouns as an example.
Speaker: There's a really sad reality as ah another um reason that people actually want, say, they-them pronouns. But since society isn't really understanding, receptive, or set up that way, most people don't use those pronouns at first go.
Speaker: And so rather than have people make a bunch of mistakes, um they want to tell somebody what they're the the of the two options the binary options of he and she they want to kind of say this is less hurtful to me so it's not their proper pronoun but they won't feel as hurt by one versus the other and so they're trying to signal that so i hope that one falls away as we get better in society about if somebody just truly wants one set but um
Speaker: and doesn't have to adopt and kind of um pretzel themselves in this way. The last one, and I'm in no way suggesting that cisgender people do this, but I did want to reflect some very small percentage of cisgender folk that are trying to be in solidarity with folks who use gender neutral pronouns and may adopt they, them in addition to their actual pronoun. as a way to give people more visibility for this pronoun and more ability to practice it.
Speaker: So again, not suggesting that people do that. There's a bit bit of mixed review among non-binary folks, understandably, about that strategy, but it it sometimes can be the case.
Speaker: there's a lot of myths around why people might do that. You've given some examples of the, some among many other reasons that people might use multiple pronouns. um But there are a lot of misconceptions and myths around why people do this too. And a really, really big one that we see a lot in our comment section Transfocus. And also I've been on the receiving end of a fair amount of this too, is that um people are just desperate for attention.
Speaker: And so they're using these multiple pronouns to be different or to stand out in some way. Where does this come from? Why is that such a prominent idea? Why? If I want attention, there's so many ways for me to get it. Oh my gosh, right? So many better. And you find other avenues, surprisingly.
Speaker: Yeah. People are usually... nervous about their own sticking out and then need to put that on somebody else rather than just owning that I don't want to stick out or I'm not the whatever their thing is it's not usually about pronouns but some other thing that they would stick out for they're like I'm not willing to take on that cost and nor should you and kind of want to tamp down folks and you know there's a bit of control and whatnot so there's There's weird dynamics when it comes to that.
Speaker: But they also miss entirely like this gift that's being given to them, the gift of clarity. It's like somebody has already sorted out or figured out to the best extent possible at this moment. They're ah gender identity and they're clarifying with you by giving you specific instruction and you don't have to think about do any like except for do the thing that was requested um like i don't know it's just like things are being served on platters to folks and they're just like never mind and you're like what um and they they kind of totally misread the situation in ways that are more about them and don't understand what is being given to them that can make things so much smoother and easier for them and for the other person. So what about you? What do you think it's about since you're on the receiving end? and I think there's just such a misunderstanding about what it means to someone and just the the impact of it as well when when asking or when making that request. Like to understand, especially if I'm talking as a non-binary person, it takes such a lot to find that you're non-binary or to figure that out because we don't have this...
Speaker: um set up at all we don't have like a like a clear definition of what um non-binary is so you grow up or at least for me I grew up thinking something was off and I couldn't quite figure it out I didn't know what it meant and it took me so long to figure out that I was non-binary and then on top of then figuring out that you're non-binary to figure out okay well what is right for me then like what does that mean because there are times where she, her feels fine, but there are times where it doesn't. And there are times where they, them feels off, but there are times where it feels great. And so it's it's just like figuring out this,
Speaker: it's confusing and then when I first heard somebody else using multiple pronouns I was like oh this that's me that makes sense and it it takes such a lot to find it and then once you have there's a relief and then there's a sense of like oh god I'm gonna have to now bring this up with people and it's hard the there are so many other ways to get attention if that's the misconception is that I'm looking for attention I could do anything literally anything else it's so personal or at least to me it feels my gender is very personal and so having to request it actually takes quite a lot and took a lot for me even amongst trans and non-binary people who in my mind would get it it took a lot for me to request that from them um it's
Speaker: for someone at least again speaking for myself that is a little shy when it comes to being perceived in in that kind of level of vulnerability it's just it takes so much and to dismiss it and reduce it down to oh you just want attention is just like oh it's so disappointing and it's so frustrating because you're missing everything that it took for me to get there does right does that make sense Absolutely. It's like heartbreaking in a sense, because like, there was such a big journey to get there. And then you're offering what I characterize as a gift, and they're rejecting it.
Speaker: And not just rejecting it, but then casting their own story on it. And It's such a reduction. That's the thing. Like, this thing is so important to me and you're dismissing it as this sort of childish want for attention. It's like, this is such a core part of me.
Speaker: You know what I mean? Like, it feels very reductive and very just, you're turning something that I'm happy and excited about into something gross. That's so tragic that that happens so much. And I'm sorry that happens to you because like I wish for so much more in in our society where people can really be with each other and see each other, um especially if people have taken the time and energy, obviously just like for yourself primarily, but then of course it involves others as well, right? So, yeah.
Speaker: You mentioned a little bit earlier about how people often feel that they need to understand everything in order to now use it. And I i really want you to unpack that, that you you have previously said on other episodes, too, you really don't need to and to fully understand someone's reasons for the pronouns that they are requesting for you to respect them and use them.
Speaker: It's a bit counterintuitive. Sometimes people are of the mindset, okay, if I fully understand everything, then I'll be able to execute perfectly or well or right.
Speaker: So I do know for most people it is coming from a good place. It's not always like super nosy or like even like an inquisition of like or an interrogation of like why. It's more like why.
Speaker: But really the question is how. So I think that's a different type of question and the why won't necessarily get you the how. And so it's being a little bit more intentional about that.
Speaker: But the thing is that if people know that somebody is, for example, bi-gender and their pronouns are reflecting that, that doesn't materially change how you do it. Or how you speak it. And so it's just a matter of doing it. And so that's where I think the why, well, if you're, you know, deeply connected to somebody may come up naturally, and you might get that reason. But it's really important not to prompt for it because unfortunately, as I'm sure is your experience, Elle, people ask a lot of questions and that in of itself is exhausting and actually dissuades people from sharing because
Speaker: as i imagine you've experienced you're like i'm anticipating this deluge this this wave of questions um somebody is like nervous and i'd rather that they just do it um and yeah maybe there's some things that need to be gently nudged right but um if there was a misunderstanding But it's really important that, and we hear this in the research too, people ah may not share because they're anticipating all these questions versus people just being like, yep, got it. Thank you for for sharing. a brush Breath of fresh air, right? It's like, ah finally I could just be. And it not be a big deal and not be a big hubba-loo and whatnot. So those are some of the dynamics that might not be readily apparent to folks who are the ones practicing because they are not the ones hearing the questions ad nauseum. So those are some of the things that we want to prevent that. It's not that we want to bar people from information. It's just like it doesn't materially change how you do it and um it spares that person or people those common questions.
Speaker: I was at a party once. It was like a Christmas party. And I was asked six times, what does that mean? Why? ah But you look at the way I express my gender is still very feminine. It's not the androgyny that people expect from non-binary-ness. And they're not small answers. that If I'm going to answer, they're they're quite, well, not lengthy, but it takes, and it's very it's quite personal as well. And I think maybe that's also another thing that people don't realize how personal those questions are, because for cisgender people, their gender is just obvious by looking at them in theory. You just look at me and you know what my gender is, but that's not the case for me. Or it's not the case for me sometimes. And so that it's it's quite a it's if it's coming from somebody who doesn't have a concept of this and just doesn't have a clue what I mean, the answers are not simple to give. And I'm having to answer. I'm just trying to I'm also wanting to be at a party. I want to ask nosy questions to people about their dogs and their lives. And like, instead and I'm meeting somebody new and they're asking me, And then by the end of it, I ended up not sharing my pronouns in the end or just saying she, her, because i just couldn't be bothered to do it, ah to deal with it. um and The other side of that, though, is that at the same party, somebody said, I'm really curious about that. um And would you mind if I asked you about it? And that was a totally different thing. It wasn't this entitlement to let me just throw questions at you. It was like, oh, I i haven't experienced that before and I'd love to know more. I said yes and the questions that they asked were so thoughtful and it was ah it was framed in a way of I'm wanting to get to know you better as opposed to like wow that's a weird thing about this person in front of me that I just am fascinated by the concept it was more like I would like to get to know you better and so the questions were more around
Speaker: me as a person that happens to use multiple pronouns I don't know how I can't think of a single example now of the difference of the question so I'm hoping you might understand what I mean by that oh but it it was a totally different uh framing of questions and um access to to to me than feeling like I was spotlight on let me just grill you about things does that make sense Oh, absolutely. I know exactly, maybe not the exact topic that you're talking about, but the the feeling of it, like the interrogation vibes of like, i I'm owed this information because you're weird.
Speaker: Like, maybe that's not what they're intending to say. That's how it feels. and Yes, it does. Yeah. versus like, I would like to get to know you. i I don't feel like I'm owed this information. It's a gift if you give it, and I'm thankful if you do, but I'm going to ask for permission to see if you're in a headspace, heart space to do it right now. You know, just appreciating that maybe you've already got a lot of questions and maybe your spoons are out for the evening. You know, like just just gives a lot more room for somebody to be human almost, right? Mm-hmm. there have been other situations much later on, you know, this that was quite early on to, into my, into me coming out, but there have been situations where I've just shared my pronouns and people have gone, okay. And carried on. And that, oh my God, the difference, it felt like it was such a nice feeling. and it also didn't feel like I was such a freak, you know, like I didn't feel like a weirdo when I was there. i mean, I did for other reasons, but yeah. It wasn't like, let me share this thing and like brace. And there is a level of bracing yourself for um questions that didn't come. And I could be like, oh, I can actually just be at this event like everybody else and it not be a thing. Oh, so nice. And it's such a huge difference. And that's actually when you ask people, trans and non-binary folks, like, what's your vision for the future? What would you like to experience? People like, I just want it to not be a big deal. Right. I don't want the intention that you're telling me I want.
Speaker: i want it to be normal and nothing. Yeah. So let's look at the sort of practicality of it. And if somebody like myself has said, hey, I use she, they pronouns, um how does someone use that?
Speaker: Yeah. So we've heard a few different misunderstandings. Yeah. Obviously, it somebody might provide additional instruction and you want to listen to that. So obviously, anything I say is within context of that. Always the person, the individual takes the lead. But broadly speaking, some people misunderstand and think they have to use the two pronouns at once.
Speaker: right? So if I'm speaking about you and the third person, people think we're going like, she, they went down the street with her, their dog, right? Like that's too much. Unless somebody has provided an instruction for that, that is generally not the case.
Speaker: What ends up being the case is that you can alternate between yeah within one or more sentences of what you're saying. um you know She is walking down the street with their dog, right? That could be a sentence. um You could decide just to use one pronoun Now, again, i would listen carefully to any follow-up instructions in case somebody, like one of our colleagues, uses she, they pronouns as well, but then also follows up and says, I prefer, i would like they, them, right? They're okay with she, her, but would like more they, thems than she, hers, you know? And so that's important to listen to. um But I invite, unless there's any other instructions, that people focus on a pronoun they're less familiar with.
Speaker: And this gives you opportunity, like in a pronoun gym, to work out with this pronoun. yeah um With yourself, with colleagues, with the individual, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: And really build a capacity for that pronoun. Because what often people do is they'll choose the binary version of it and like overdo that. um Maybe it's not fair to say overdue because it is the one one of a few that one or of two or more that somebody has indicated, but um we already know how to do that pronoun super well. So might as well go for something else. So that there's just take a little opportunity. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: Here we go. But you can toggle between the two or just choose one and use that. Mm hmm. From a ah workplace lens, what should organizations be considering when it comes to making room for multiple pronoun use, like forms or systems in HR, things like that? Multiple pronoun use is not like people are just about making space for they them. But multiple pronoun use? Holy. What is going on It's so true. And, you know, when we're doing strategy sessions regarding systems change, especially information systems, we often find there's really good intention, but not quite to the level that's needed for the different types of pronoun usages that exist.
Speaker: The most common ones that are overlooked is usually the form only allows one selection of pronouns. So cool, I can select he, him, but you know, what about you?
Speaker: you want to share, not possible. You would either only be able to do she or only be able to do they. And that's like an awful choice to have to make when both apply. Yeah. So just making sure folks either like a fill in the blank, which I know sometimes IT t doesn't really like because people can go wild with it, or i check all that apply. So in that case, that makes it easy for you.
Speaker: The other thing that's overlooked is no pronouns, right? So usually people just assume some sort of pronoun or combination thereof, but there also needs to be space. And we have an episode all on that, which we can put in the show notes in case people are curious about no pronouns.
Speaker: But those are some of the things. And then also as part of introductions, you know, making space for people to either share themselves or part of their bio to make sure that there's space for multiple pronouns there. And also to be prepared not to be surprised.
Speaker: And listening to this episode is ah is a helpful step towards that. But, you know, people can have their facial expressions of like, oh, yeah. Oh, I've had a lot of those. Oh, dear. It's like we don't need the facial expressions. It's not to say that you could be surprised, but you can do internally, you know. um a And also to equip managers to be ready to help team members with that type of adoption. They might need a little coaching, just some of the hows and redirecting them from I need to know why before I can do job.
Speaker: um So just little tips, things like that to help the team to be like, we don't need to know why, we just need to do how, here's a few tips on how, how about we practice, you know, things like that, that can make the adoption that much more smooth and not totally on the shoulders of the trans or non-binary person with multiple pronouns.
Speaker: So just a few tips there. My last question for you then is um if someone listening takes away just one thing from this episode, what should it be? what is your advice for someone who is nervous about getting it right as well? Yeah, I appreciate why people are nervous. It's unfamiliar.
Speaker: It's new to that person, right? It's not a new thing in general. it's just new to that person. And oftentimes people want to get it right. And because it's new, it might take some practice. And that's where leaning other other people, not the trans or non-binary person, but other people in your midst to be like, let's go practice this together because I want to make sure I get it right. And or find the rhythm of it, right? There's sometimes like a rhythm that people need to find. And sometimes only in practicing it do you find it. but And so that can be a really helpful tool to just
Speaker: anything new, you're going to have to practice it, right? Like a new language, a new skill, and this is kind of no different. And so inviting folks who are nervous to spend that time with other folks to to make that possible. um And I think that would, it would be very touching for that individual who has multiple pronouns to know that somebody is making the effort taking it seriously. And um also, again, this is a kind of more general reminder that even if you make a mistake, um you know, by using the incorrect pronoun, you can always quick apology and a correction and carry on, right? So it's not the end of the world if you do that, but practice definitely minimizes those amount of mistakes.
Speaker: I think I would absolutely melt if I knew somebody was really safe cute. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a little pronoun gem, like, Yeah, they could use any pronoun for me if I knew that they were practicing and they got it wrong and said something completely off. I'd be like, you know what, the fact that you're practicing is all good. Wouldn't recommend getting it wrong for for anyone. is saying But not the fact that I would know that somebody is trying so hard, the actual error itself is less important when I know that there is a significant effort being made, you know. this we hear time and time again in the research and I think people don't understand that about or many people don't understand that about trans and non-binary folks we have a lot of capacity for error obviously there is within reason um but really the the focal point is effort you know people if you make effort it's like so touching because we often experience the opposite which is like dismissive um denying just ignoring
Speaker: Yeah. yeah So yay to effort. o Well, thank you so much for this, Kai. This was great. And hopefully it was helpful to those who are trying to better understand multiple pronouns, which is something that is is increasing. And we see that in the data as well, as people are trying to better reflect their gendered experiences in the world.
Speaker: Great. Well, we'll see you next week. Thank you so much. Bye for now. Bye-bye.
