Transcript
Speaker: people think about trans and non-binary people, pronouns are usually the first thing that comes to mind. We all know she her, he, him. A lot of us are getting more familiar with they, them now. um And maybe you've heard of neo-pronouns too, things like zeezer. But sometimes people don't realize that there are folks who want to go by the pronoun it. And for a lot of people that can feel quite confusing or uncomfortable. So today Kai and I want to talk about that and what it means when someone chooses it or why they might choose it and how the rest of us can show up for that choice, even if it takes some work to get there. How are you doing, Kai?
Speaker: I'm doing fantastic and really excited about this topic because it's fresh on our minds and in our experience. So yeah, it'll be good to unpack it. It's very timely. How are you? Oh, thanks for asking. I'm great. No, I'm good. I'm also looking forward to talking about this because as you said, it is very timely for reasons that we'll get into later. um And it's a topic. Well, it's ah it's something that I've had to work through and i've I've been feeling that discomfort that I mentioned and have been ah very recently working through it. So it's really cool to talk about it. And I can anticipate how confusing a lot of people might find it. So it'll be cool to kind of get into it a bit.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. If you can hear, usually my microphone doesn't pick up on it, but you may hear some quite loud rumbling. And one of my dogs, for whatever reason, is sleeping upside down. And it' noise. So like like upside down with legs everywhere. You know, like i feel like their legs just sort of grow like three times. They're just all over the place. That's cute.
Speaker: I can imagine it. Yeah. I mean, hey, when you have all your needs met, you feel safe and you're relaxed. Can you imagine the life of a dog living with me? I treat them like they're royalty.
Speaker: Best life. Literally. Anyway. These dogs, they've had a long walk this morning because I was up really early. They've eaten things they shouldn't be eating, which they found on the floor. They've chased two squirrels. They've had their breakfast. They had a little treat of cucumber because they looked cute, so I had to give it to them. And then and now they're passed out, like unconscious. so That's like most of the day activity for them, in packed in ah and a few hours. More could you possibly need.
Speaker: Yeah. and then they're gonna sleep on my bed later because ah i can't resist so cute anyway these dogs are spoiled cause my own problems by spoiling them we should do a whole episode on dogs well because there is a connection there uh sure trans and envy we can find one All right, let's talk about it pronouns then. um What do we mean when we say that some people like to be referred to as it? And like, how would that sound in an interaction? Yeah, so just kind of establishing the basics first before we launch into the nuances and, you know, why somebody might use it and, you know, how and whatnot. So yeah, what it is it? It's essentially, you know, we, when we're talking about somebody in the third person, you were mentioning the common pronouns of she and he, and now more increasingly, they, them for one person. And
Speaker: you know, that's, people are wrapping their heads around all of those. And then there's a ones that are being used in new ways. And we call those neo pronouns, even though it has been around, but people are using it for themselves as humans. And typically in our society, we use it for objects, sometimes even animals. But Now, humans, some humans are asking to be referred to it in the third person. And usually doesn't come up one on one when we're just with individuals. Like if I'm talking to you, I'm using you, right? Right. or nos so that's the second person not the third But then when we involve other people and you're going to refer to somebody, whether they're there or whether they're not, that's when we shift to the she, he, they, and now we're going to talk about it.
Speaker: So that's just context. How would it be used? You know, it is walking down the street with its dog, right? Like that's a, that's my famous sample sentence. Always have somebody walking down the street with a dog. Yeah. Hey, if dogs can help with pronouns, my two are ready. Right. I mean, sometimes you have cats that go on leashes, so maybe I should, you know, spruce it up a bit. I'm going to interrupt here. I saw somebody walking two ferrets in my neighborhood. Two ferrets? Two ferrets on a harness and leash walking around my neighborhood. I have never seen that before. And I just, I was a creep staring watching someone walk. Of course, yeah. It was amazing. So I think we need to update your... your sort of template there with uh it is walking with uh it's two ferrets down the street that's awesome i love it and there's like ferrets are so spry and very rambunctious so i love it bouncy and they were bouncing around they were in the time of their lives loved that
Speaker: Okay, sorry, I interrupted you. So what would make someone choose those pronouns over more common pronouns like they, them, or even neo-pronouns as well, which offer an alternative to the pronouns that we used to, too?
Speaker: Yeah. So it's really important to listen to the people who use those pronouns. It um sometimes they're just on their own. Some other times they're combined to have multiple pronouns. So they'll say, I use it, they, and she pronouns, right? That could be an option. Or people to say, I use it and its pronouns. So Now, there's so many reasons why that we've heard from folks that use it and its pronouns. And basically, some people feel disconnected from gender or the expectations around gender or the roles that they're asked to assume. And so it's almost like a rejection of that.
Speaker: I've heard others really beautifully explain that it's actually in solidarity with other beings that are referred to it. Right? So yeah animals, plants, these are all beings that have, you know, ah they're they're beings just like us. And so they're like...
Speaker: if it's good for them, it's good for me. And so that's ah one way of describing oneness with the the environment or universe around them. So I thought that was a really beautiful one. my gosh.
Speaker: Yeah, that's so lovely. I thought, I was like, these are very thoughtful. and that's usually, um you know, we're we're explaining reasons and sometimes people will be okay to describe them. Other times they just want people to adopt them without having to explain. um But sometimes if they're willing or open to explaining, you'll find some very nuanced um reflections that people have, um you know, explored pronouns and figured out that this is the one that's right for them for a variety of reasons.
Speaker: ah The last one that I've heard, the kind of most common one, is that it just feels right. Like, so similar to same then he feels right. Right? Yeah. You just try out a few different ones and then you're like, nope, that's the one. And that's the one where I'm going to go with. And maybe there's not a deeper explanation past that. That is sufficient. Right? Yeah.
Speaker: who Yeah, for sure. Now, there are some people who find this pronoun really difficult to get their heads around. And I will say ah i was definitely one of those people or I'm one of those people kind of currently trying to overcome that discomfort around using ah it as a pronoun for someone. Not yeah because I don't want be respectful of the pronouns someone uses, but it's more of an association of um using it to be objectifying or dehumanizing. And so before we get into why that isn't the case, ah could you go into what people are thinking or or like, why is this so uncomfortable for people?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. ah Well, there's a good reason for it. And most people who use it pronouns know that this is at play. Yeah, sure. That this can be uncomfortable for folks because very similar to the term queer in our you know community, people...
Speaker: who, especially in older generations, who experienced that as a slur um launched at people to hurt them intentionally or to ostracize them. um It can feel really jarring to hear that word because it has been used to dehumanize trans and non-binary folks. It was an imposed pronoun on them um as a way to reject them as were kind of treated as subhuman, essentially. yeah And so that residue, i mean, it's still active today, right It's not like it's some thing. We've received it on social media. We've received it, especially on YouTube. We've we've received that comment. So it's very prevalent.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's still here. And, you know, it happened in the past. And so some people just feel that, that history or that, you know, active use of it in a harmful way. And so it's very understandable that it's like, okay, I know that logically that this person has asked for it. And I want to respond respectfully. But I still have this lingering response.
Speaker: Maybe I've personally received it or maybe I know of a friend or a family member. And so it's just hard to kind of round that bend um when somebody has asked for that. For sure. This is something that I really had to work through with myself. ah I think it kind of feels like I'm being disrespectful or dehumanizing to the person I'm speaking about. And yeah, I i totally get why people struggle with it. um I really had to like, I had to work with that.
Speaker: You said something then about imposed pronoun, like I really had to work with the difference between imposed pronouns. dehumanization and a request from someone to really see them and um like how like how they want to be referred to and it's it's like it's intention and consent and using the pronouns somebody has requested is actually like a huge act of seeing someone's humanity even if it feels counterintuitive um in the way that they've requested it. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that's something that was on lot. way distinguishing it and kind of parsing it through for yourself so that it helps the mind and the heart, you know kind of follow suit. You're right, because it is consensually requested and this is a response to that request, right? Now, I will say an added nuance is that some people who use eat ah it pronouns, Um, you know, they can, for the most part, distinguish people who are using it in a respectful way as a response to their request and somebody who is using it in a harmful way. And that's another thing that hopefully people feel a little bit more confident stepping into it, um, is how you approach it makes a huge difference. Right. Um,
Speaker: Because there are some people who, even if somebody has requested it can also use it harmfully. Yeah. Which is such a tricky path, right? For folks.
Speaker: Yeah. Do you have any advice for someone who wants to get this right and find the comfort or maybe lose the discomfort, um but finds it like a really genuine mental block?
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's really important ah to go online and read the stories or the explanations of people who use it pronouns, because that's where you start to see there's actually a huge amount of, in my mind, beauty around how people have figured it out for themselves, the journey that they've taken and where they've landed And, you know, one example is, you know, people don't feel have a sense of gender. And so this is a way for them to express that um and to honor that. And, you know, I mean, among other reasons. And so and then that oneness with other beings, like, I don't know, there's just so much. That's so beautiful. What a beautiful way of seeing things.
Speaker: complete sense, right? When you think about it. And there's more, know, stories of understanding beyond those, you know, kind of three main categories that I mentioned. And so that understanding piece is helpful. Of course, we don't need to fully understand to do the to to use the pronouns.
Speaker: Another thing that's really helpful is practice. So some people are like, I'm uncomfortable, end of story, right? They won't use it. Right. But, you know, we experienced a discomfort and then we actually used it.
Speaker: Right. And we made it like we're going to be uncomfortable and we're going kind of like flounder about um with this pronoun. But that's, you know, apart from the individual. Right. We're not floundering in front of them if we can't help it. Right. Of course, if we make a genuine mistake, no problem. to Quick correction and carry on. Right.
Speaker: But I think there's something to be said about practicing, like getting our tongue and our mind to collaborate and do the thing. Right. And of course, that applies to any pronoun. I think it would be especially for this pronoun and to do it with somebody who also wants to practice and OK with, you know, just, you know, going to mess up. And so What I found when I was doing it as I kept toggling between it and they, like I was yeah so primed to do they. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. That's what I found. Or I would say something like, um, people who want to use it pronouns, they would have a hard time. I don't know, blah, blah, blah. I like, I would do that all the time. Like I would switch to, ah to if I'm talking about maybe not an individual, but I'm talking about people who use it pronouns more generally, i'll will then switch to they. I would do that switch all the time in my, I'm very primed for that. So yeah, that was one I found too. And I want to touch on what you just said about it's, it's fine to have a reaction or to feel that discomfort. when somebody is requesting and it like to use it as their pronoun. Oh, I just did it then. That's, yeah that's the example. It as its pronoun.
Speaker: That's awesome. Great example. But yeah, it's, it's, normal or oh it's okay to feel that discomfort but you so there's you don't need to perform ease that you don't feel but you also need to not have your reaction be that reaction is yours to sit with and it's important to avoid handing that discomfort to the person whose pronoun it is So true. That's a good, good point. I think people want to demonstrate that they're trying. And so, so we'll kind of do the floundering in front of the person um as a way to demonstrate, but actually that creates more discomfort and it,
Speaker: it's difficult for that person to see it usually. i mean, everybody's different, but for the most part, folks kind of are like, ugh, you know, a lot of people are struggling with it and i get it. It's different from what people are used to and they're comfortable. But I think ah a good thing to do is to try your best. If you make a mistake, correct it. And then if you need to emotionally process, do that separate from the individual.
Speaker: Go with a friend and who who understands these issues and won't be like, yeah, don't use that pronoun. But somebody who gets it and they're like, yeah, I struggle with it too, but I'm still super motivated and, um you know, we can get through this. um But yeah, these are some of the nuances that you find in the journey, but still sticking to, you know, doing it and trying it, right? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Are there alternatives if someone truly cannot get there and cannot get get past their discomfort? Yeah. So if you keep trying and practicing and practice doesn't do it and understanding doesn't get you there and you're still stumped, then there definitely are all alternatives. Now, this is alternatives for any pronoun. It's not exclusive to it um its pronoun. But essentially, you don't...
Speaker: there's the alternative and not using any pronouns. um So this does also take practice, right? So it's not ah like it's not an easy out. ah And basically, you know, we're just saying this person um or using this person's name. See right there. I wanted to automatically go to they, but that's where you would have to pay attention and really slow down your speech almost. to be able to catch when you're about to do they, she, he, any of the ones that were primed to use instead of no pronoun.
Speaker: And, you know, this person is walking, um this person's, uh, Two ferrets down the street, right? So for me, when I think about definitely can do the alternative, it still takes probably the same amount of effort. And so I would almost think to respect and honor them, especially if I'm close to them, I would really go lean into the it pronoun.
Speaker: and make the effort right um just because it's about the same effort so might as well for sure yeah of course this is as we've alluded to ah super timely for us because we just ran our pronoun initiative pilot and this is where people signed up with a name and pronouns that they were considering using but hadn't quite committed to yet um we recorded ourselves using their requested pronouns so that they could hear what it sounded like and see if it fit see if they liked it or not and so um that was I think it was last month that we did that and one of the participants that we had asked for a few options and one of those was it which meant that it was the first time either of us had you actually said or certainly me I don't know if that's true for you I think you said it was yeah yeah I think I've read it and there's a difference between reading and you know speaking out loud
Speaker: Yeah, no, for sure. I've read it as well. I just, yeah, I'd never used it as a pronoun in that way. ah That was my first time doing it. So i I was curious about what that experience was like for you, given that it was your first time too.
Speaker: Yeah, I was just really grateful and excited that we had that opportunity. Because usually, you know, it's it's a mixture of other pronouns, occasionally a neo pronoun like z and zur, which I now have practice with, thankfully, given some folks in my life. ah But they the it pronoun, given some of these mental bare blocks for for myself and and yourself and others, I was curious about how that would translate into a conversation. Also, I found it was ah just like a different rhythm.
Speaker: um It is shorter. I know she and he are also the single syllable, but it is just feels shorter than that even. Mm-hmm. And so I found I had to figure out kind of the the cadence of the speech almost for myself.
Speaker: And that was interesting. I didn't realize that was going to have to shift. and But I did do all the tricks that I talk about, right? So sometimes people think you know trans and non-binary folks were just fluent with these things. And sometimes we are. And in cases some cases, we're not. And we're having to apply the very same things we talk about.
Speaker: slowing down my speech, you know, I had a little sticky to help me practice to visualize, right? So I found those to be really helpful. And the practice with you in a safe place where I know the mistake wouldn't harm ah the person involved. yeah What was it like for you during that initiative?
Speaker: and Not as difficult as I thought. i remember having, i probably because we were prepared for it. You know, we had written a script out because we were trying to make sure that the conversation had a certain flow and was a certain length for the individual who was receiving the the recording so we had a script written out already so it was a bit different to it wasn't like a supernatural but at the same time i did catch myself so very I had to do the same thing slowing down and really thinking about because I was so easily defaulting today especially because this individual used multiple pronouns so it was almost like it was easier mentally for me to slip into ah another pronoun that I knew that it wanted And so having to go, no, no, we're here for a reason. And also this is a a great opportunity to practice.
Speaker: Um, it was, uh, a really cool, I just, I feel very lucky that, that, um, it reached out to, uh, give us that opportunity. I was so generous with everybody who was part of that pronoun experience. So I was sort feeling very lucky. One of the things that I really got from it was that you can be uncomfortable and do it anyway. Like discomfort isn't a reason to opt out.
Speaker: And it's usually a sign of having space for growth on something. So feeling that discomfort was like, yeah it's, it's not a reason to not do it. Yeah, it's just accompanying you for a bit, and then it drops away. And it does drop away quite quickly. That's what what I found is that maybe the first little bit was uncomfortable. But then after that, I still had to think about it because it wasn't something that I'm used to. But it wasn't, it wasn't this gut wrenching, oh, God, I'm being dehumanizing in the way that I had Right.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we can kind of sometimes get it in our own way. Well, you know, that's my thing. I'm always in my own way.
Speaker: But yeah, it's so important to to understand kind of the dynamics and the way that the mind works and will work. default to the status quo and kind of want to keep us in how things were. um But that with a little discomfort practice, you can get to the next level of this practice. And it usually is not as arduous as one imagines, which is the case with a lot of learning. It's like you just got to so jump in.
Speaker: So yeah one thing I did want to know that was really interesting for me is that it I needed to be clear. We had a script, but it was sometimes confusing to me when we were referring to it as something else like, you know, ice cream yeah versus the individual. And that can come sometimes come up with they, the singular, and they for a group of people. So i found myself having to repeat the name just before using it for the pronoun and then repeating the item if I was using it for,
Speaker: you know, that object. So that was a bit of a having to be a little bit more conscious so that people didn't get lost in what I was talking about. If I was referring to an object and the individual in the same sentence.
Speaker: Yeah, I found that too. But it's, it's cool that it, it just requires like an extra step. It's not this like impossible thing and like, oh my God, we're all going to be confused. It's just like a little extra step and then it's easy enough to, to go through. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. But that's the power of doing it is to understand some of these nuances. One, it's not that hard. You know, you might have to adjust the language a little bit, which, you know, um we're speeches ad hoc generally. And so this is where having a bit of practice will allow us to be like, okay, I just need to be conscious of this aspect. or other aspects that we haven't addressed here to be able to do this in a fluid way.
Speaker: So it's good. Yeah. And to talk about it, right? Like we did it and then we talked about it, right? Yeah. Debriefed. Yeah, we debriefed. As as needed sometimes.
Speaker: Well, we are going to be running another pronoun initiative in the future. So if you're somebody listening that, and you want to hear more about it, the best place to keep an eye out for like an announcement for that is probably Instagram or maybe TikTok, but probably Instagram. So we're um at Transfocus Consulting on Instagram. So you can give us a follow if you want to keep an eye out on what we're up to and when that next is coming out. And lastly,
Speaker: uh we're planning for podcast episodes for next year so if you want to contribute um if you have topics you want us to cover or if you have any feedback or thoughts that you want to share then you can do so by filling out our anonymous survey that is also linked in the show notes below as well Yes. Please give data to me. I love it so much. The data nerd is requesting more data. If you don't mind filling that out, we'd be eternally grateful. He hasn't had enough data apparently in his life. No, one no. Can never have enough.
Speaker: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Kai. This has been super interesting and it was such a great experience to ah muddle through learning it pronouns or feeling more confident with it pronouns with you.
Speaker: Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much for unpacking with me. Sweet. See you later. Bye.
