Transcript
Speaker: When workplaces want to become more trans inclusive, a lot of the work isn't just knowing what to do, it's actually making it happen. And that's what we're talking about today, helping a workplace take an idea and turn it into something real. And it's something that Transfocus works really closely with, with a lot of clients on. What I will say Kai is that I feel pretty confident when it comes to the cultural side of trans inclusion like the language and the awareness stuff but the more structural workplace stuff goes straight over my head and I don't feel so confident with that so I feel very lucky that I get to work with you and pick your brains on this because ah this is very much more your area of expertise I'm very excited so how are you doing?
Speaker: I'm doing well. Any day we talk about the systems side, i get very excited. I'm a big systems thinker. It's how things fit together and flow. And um yeah, because these are underappreciated aspects or just not on some people's radars. And it's good to talk about them, even if maybe they're a bit perplexing at first. But yeah, we take out the mystery.
Speaker: For sure. There's so much that I didn't know about. Like, I mean, there's no reason for me to know it because I wasn't working in this industry before I joined Chance Focus. But at the same time, there's so many little details that I really just had no idea about when it comes to how this works on a structural level. So it's really cool that I feel like I get to learn on the on the job as well. Absolutely. Yeah. As do others, too. So it's cool. Mm hmm.
Speaker: So when we say implementation support, what do we actually mean? Absolutely. So ah typically when we work with clients, they're like, just tell me what to do and then ah we'll go away and do it.
Speaker: And which is fine. That's a totally perfectly good model to to do. ah But sometimes some clients, maybe even ah many clients come back and are like, so how do we do this? Right. it's like Right. Figured out the what, but it's like the mystery is still like how. And it can be daunting, especially if it's something new to usher that through an organization, particularly in this time where unfortunately trans issues have become a flashpoint. Yeah.
Speaker: Certainly in the United States, but also here in Canada, ah just people have all kinds of misconceptions or opinions, and those can kind of complicate how you bring something into an organization. So we're just able to accompany folks on that journey. Having done so much implementation, we can kind of help them it deftly maneuver around you know things that could be complicated.
Speaker: um So what's usually the very first step when a workplace comes to Transfocus and they wanting to make, they've got an idea of what they want to change and then they want to figure out what the next steps are, rather than just like knowing that they should make that change, what are the the very first steps?
Speaker: Yeah. So it's really good to have a plan, an idea of what to change. There are usually a handful of things. So sequencing them or prioritizing them, all of that's great. um You know, sometimes we're involved, sometimes we're not in that process. But then it's like, OK, we're going to do X um and now we want to figure out how to do that.
Speaker: Typically what we do is, you know, we're involved in developing communications. Sometimes organizations are a little shy. They don't actually want to talk about changes they're making. They're like, hopefully you could do this in the quiet of the night, you know, just switch over to something and people won't notice. So that they don't want to communicate it within their workplace.
Speaker: They have like a change in mind and they don't want to share with others that they're doing it. They just want to make the change. Oh, I see. Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I appreciate why organizations do that. number Number one, they don't want to toot their own horn or it feels like they're tooting their own horn. like being performative.
Speaker: Yeah. It's like, look how awesome we are. And it's like, yeah. Also, they don't want to stir up controversy because so much discourse um and, ah you know, acrimony and hostility and, you know, things go all kinds of different ways on this topic. And so people are, organizations are reticent to do communications about this and hope that, that trans people will just figure it out and who will just chance upon whatever change they're making. Right.
Speaker: they just stumble across an all gender washroom. Yeah. like oh Cool. Amazing. ah And so there's that hesitation. There's also just the practicality of what are the tasks needed in order to achieve the goal. So it's like kind of project management type stuff, like where you kind of like, okay, we need to do this set of things first and then this and, you know, so forth.
Speaker: And who's doing what? Like maybe we're doing some aspect, the clients do another aspect. How are we coordinating between the things, like the the typical stuff, right? and There can be changes is along the way, right? You have your initial idea of what the plan is, but then you realize, oh, because of some IT t limitation, maybe we can't do it exactly how we imagined. So how are we going to pivot together? What's the alternative? Are there creative solutions that we can implement? ah And so this is a really important thing to introduce. Then it's also about collecting feedback along the way as well. So...
Speaker: understanding how people are experiencing the change that hopefully you've communicated about to let them know it's happening. um And then, you know, if there is a change needed based on the feedback that's provided or just an adjustment or maybe you have to tweak things. So these are all things that's kind of implementation is very dynamic. And so it can be helpful to have a trusted guide along the way that has done this before, knows when you don't need to freak out and also what the options are.
Speaker: When we were planning for this episode, we've got like a couple, like some bullet points of things that we wanted to make sure we covered. And ah I was like, yeah, I guess we'll talk about implementation. Sounds boring. But the way that you've talked about it is actually, I didn't realize how move, like how many moving parts there are to it and how it's very, um it's very responsive to like what's happening around you.
Speaker: Yeah. And really helpful for folks. Because the thing is with clear communication, and especially if somebody is not trans themselves, they're like, why are we doing this? Doesn't make any sense. It works for me. So what's the big deal? And as soon as you break it down, they're like, oh, okay, that makes sense. And I want to be a part of an inclusive community. environment and so they're motivated and maybe even a little excited or see the benefit in that change for themselves right so because of course changes don't just benefit trans folks so it's just like bringing people along there could be people who pump the brakes and are like nah I don't want truth of anything though right Yeah.
Speaker: And but that's also part of communications is, you know, dealing with the naysayers because they will be there or could be there. And it's just being like not being surprised when they show up and having communication to help them understand as well. And some people will never understand. And that's a part of the process as well.
Speaker: I really want to go back to what you were saying about communication and how a lot of organizations are hesitant to to communicate changes that they're making because of that ah pushback or whatever it is. Like, why is it so important that they need to be communicating that kind of at the even before it begins? Yeah, ah mainly because we have come in after there's been no communication and things blow up.
Speaker: And that's unfortunate because usually if it's well explained, most people come along and are not going to pump the brakes or throw things in the way. um But when people are not brought along, they can react from fear. They can react from disappointment from frustration um from like being uncertainty like where is this going what are we doing you know and there's actually a broken trust unfortunately even if it's not intended as that it's perceived as such and sadly it actually backfires on trans and non-binary folks
Speaker: Right. Time and time again, people are like, it's because of you that this happened and right you have too many needs. It's special. It's above and beyond. You're too much, you know, so they get that thrown in there and everybody's in their own corner, hurting, afraid and frustrated.
Speaker: And it's not a good situation. it it sort of sounds like by not communicating in order to avoid backlash, you actually create the backlash that you were trying to avoid. It like creates, it's like counterintuitive.
Speaker: Yeah, it is. i'm I'm consistently surprised by it, but unfortunately, given where we're at in our society on the topic of gender diversity, it just is a flashpoint. And Organizations unfortunately kind of need to account for that and incorporate that into their strategy, their approach and how they go about implementation. And communication is a huge part of it and addressing it head on um in a gentle and supportive and understanding way can make a huge difference and avoid, I would say, 75% the backlash.
Speaker: Interesting. ah One of the things, okay, I'm finding this way more interesting. i thought yeah I'm getting implementation supporters here. I was literally before we hit record, I was like, ah not in the mood for this.
Speaker: Okay, now I have questions I hadn't prepared for. So one of the questions that's popped up in my head is the way that you've spoken about this is um really being super flexible with what you're coming across, like on ah on a moment by moment basis, I guess. And so you mentioned about how...
Speaker: realistically things don't always go to plan even if you have a plan in place things don't always go the way that you were expecting and so what kinds of unexpected issues come up and how do you like how does trans focus and and yourself handle that or like support a workplace when it when it does happen Yeah, absolutely. So we know a lot, ah but don't know everything. And so if we're involved in creating the plan, it's like we have a few, you know, we we try to be as detailed as possible to help with the implementation. But there's just things that as um IT t systems evolve or you know might might be an um a limitation in the infrastructure for creating washrooms that we weren't aware of. I mean, one very ah kind of specialized thing is in buildings, there are load bearing
Speaker: walls, right, that you can't get rid of. And so if you're like, well, just combine these two washrooms and create an all gender washroom sounds great. But then once you get detail, you're like, oh, wait a second, we can't remove this wall. um So we need another approach, right?
Speaker: And so that's where we can pivot to perhaps a backup, a plan B, or we can think of creative ways of working with the wall, right? So that's a kind of a very specific example. But there's all kinds of IT limitations. And we know kind of the main systems, especially human resources systems, information systems.
Speaker: but you there new ones coming online all the time and perhaps they have better functionality than we expected and so maybe we're able to go further so it doesn't always have to be a negative example it can be just like okay we we were able to do this much better right um perhaps the uh you know the need for two name fields um and allows more for more functionality than we anticipated and We want to be able to leverage that much better than we had originally imagined. And just to be able to talk it through and be like, okay, this makes sense here. Maybe we do it differently over there. And, you know, so it's just like thinking it all through.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. So there's sometimes that and then also sometimes it's just drilling down into the detail, right? You have a high level plan and then we're going to go deeper in terms of what kinds of tasks are involved in that and kind of coordinating between different folks. So there's that kind of adaptive, flexible approach and things can change and just needing to pivot there.
Speaker: You've just been talking about physical spaces and and changes that come up with that. um And I never thought I would say this, but I would really like to segue into talking about policy. so Wow. Plot twist.
Speaker: So I'm curious about that gap when it like when it comes to like the difference between having a policy and then implementing one. And like a workplace can write a really beautiful policy and then have it sit in a binder and do nothing. And so that implementation is the difference between a policy existing and then actually changing someone's day to day experience at work. And so I'm curious about how that shows up and and kind of what that looks like.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, that's such an important thing. And sometimes people think that just making a policy effective or maybe even a toolkit or a guide, like just putting it out there, that's it, we're done, you know, and then people will kind of magically find it and use it or, yeah, understand what it is. um and so that's where there's a big difference between having a policy or a toolkit and And activating it essentially. Right. And that's where the implementation part is so key. It's like letting people know that it exists, um explaining why it exists. Why now too? That's a big question. People are like, well, if this has always been an issue. why are we doing something about it right now?
Speaker: and just kind of explaining the the history, the story of this coming about and, you know, having people buy in because oftentimes they're like, this has nothing to do with me. You know, don't don't bother me, essentially.
Speaker: And especially if an org has a lot of policies, people can be a little annoyed that there's more. And so I can imagine.
Speaker: So we're just coming on scene and people are rolling their eyes, you know, so just like, if you have a strong case, and break it down for folks have a life session, um where you explain it have people ask questions. um have micro learning opportunities, right? Where you you know pull little tidbits and put it on you know a TV screen that gets prominently displayed or there's screensavers, right? There's like all these ways to kind of in um integrate it into the everyday so that when there's a need for it, people know it exists and they actually use it. um Particularly like coming out ah tool or toolkits that support coming out processes.
Speaker: We've worked with orgs where we just ask the question, you know, how how often is this used? And one, most organizations don't know, which is like, yikes. um Right. and then right And then when we do ask ah employees, they're like, I haven't heard of this. I don't even know what you're talking about. You're like, yeah.
Speaker: And then maybe 10% have used it, right? And so it's like, you're right. It's like what you said, it's sitting on a shelf um when it actually needs to live in the organization.
Speaker: I am putting you on the spot a little bit here. So don't worry if you don't have an answer, but I'm curious about whether you have an example of ah like work that you've done or clients that you've worked with where a policy that looked good on paper kind of wasn't working and it actually needed real implementation to actually function. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, that's come up quite a bit in um a trans inclusion policy and sport more generally. I'll speak generally rather than a specific org, right? Because that's very powerful. It's really important. And oftentimes... we We've done some research on this too to see, okay, what's happened? It's been five, 10 years after ah one sport or multiple sports quote-unquote implementation of the policy. And really it just...
Speaker: It's not not gone anywhere. um and Versus we have which worked with some sports um organizations that have been very intentional about educating their ah you know volunteers, their directors, their provincial leads, et cetera. And it makes a huge difference because they're able to talk to people, especially if they have concerns, to be like, this is what's going on. This is what we're doing. This is not what we're doing.
Speaker: And they feel way more confident. They're not having to go to the national level at every little question, right? They're able to handle some of it on their own. Obviously, some they do need to go. And so it just makes it so much easier for everybody involved. And there's less need to freak out about some of the aspects, right? It's like, actually, we want people to participate. And this is what it's for.
Speaker: We talk about change rooms and, you know, just go through all of that. And then have people and answer their questions because more often than not, people are just kind of like curious, you know, maybe a little befuddled and have a lot of questions and no place to get those answered. So part of implementation is just getting people to think about these things in a deeper way.
Speaker: if if an organization or somebody from an organization is um listening to this and they've got the drive but they don't know where to start what is one thing that they could do to like move forward from like having an idea to actually implementing it see Yeah, a really good ah first step is identifying who needs to be involved in these, right? Because sometimes it's almost cross departmental, right?
Speaker: Oftentimes it sits with ah HR and they're like, okay, it's just ah HR that needs to be involved. But actually, say we're updating information systems, IT t needs to be involved and they need to be brought up to speed to be like, what is this all about? to understand the nuances so that they can be a part of creative problem solving and to coordinate between HR and IT and maybe a communications person needs to be involved, right? So it depends on the size of the org and the different types of departments. Right.
Speaker: But getting everybody in the same room, on the same page, up to speed, um is really helpful. And of course, IT t doesn't need to be involved in everything. They've got their own things that they need to work on. um But just knowing kind of who needs to be in the room, when, for what, and just kind of mapping all of that out is really helpful.
Speaker: And I think what I tend to recommend is one person is responsible for the overarching, the whole plan is what ends up happening is, you know, be like, Oh, I thought you were doing that. No, I thought you were, you know, and so everybody's confused, nothing's getting done. So we have stepped into a lot of situations where we gave them, you know,
Speaker: however many recommendations. And we come back five years later where maybe not everything is going to be done, understandably so. Some take some things take time. But maybe a quarter is done.
Speaker: And then we kind of dig a little bit deeper. And it's because it kind of broke down and people thinking that other people were doing the things when right they were responsible but kind of got stuck and then didn't go to anybody else to get unstuck.
Speaker: Cool. Thank you so much, Kai. The last thing i I want to say is that we are planning for podcast episodes for next year. So if you have topics that you want us to talk about, or if you have any feedback or thoughts ah about the podcast so far, um we'd be super grateful if you could fill out an anonymous survey that we have linked in our show notes, along with the implementation checklist as well, all in the show notes.
Speaker: um We'd be super grateful if you could fill that out. It just gives us a good idea about how we're doing and where we're headed. I love data. I love hearing from folks. I'm sure as does Elle. And it's just really great way. Not quite as much as you.
Speaker: And they'll be beautiful graphs.
Speaker: I do love hearing, but Kai will collect it all. And you make me think of a magpie, you know, collecting bits of silver. but your Shiny objects. the date of The data magpie. Exactly. That's cute. I love it.
Speaker: Cool. Well, thank you so much, Kai. And we'll see you next week. right. Bye for now.
