Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to another episode of Gender in Focus. Today we're talking about self-determination. So in a lot of countries, for a trans person to actually transition, they have to get approval first from a doctor, a psychiatric panel, or even a court sometimes. That approval process can take years and it can mean interviews where you're expected to almost argue your case or prove that your identity is real or meet a certain set of criteria that have absolutely nothing to do with what you as a person, as an individual, actually need. um So today we're talking about that self-determination, the idea that people should be able to define their gender identity on their own terms and take their own path without that kind of sign off. So it's it's a highly debated issue in trans healthcare and trans rights. And because it sits right in the intersection of the medical process, legal recognition and basic autonomy over your own body and identity, it's really, it's a really big deal. So that's what we're digging into today. I'm so happy to be talking about it with Kai. How are you doing, Kai? I'm doing well. How about yourself?
Speaker: I'm doing really well, thank you. I'm a little um hesitant about this topic for some reason, maybe because I don't know a lot about it, maybe. So I'm pretty excited to be asking you questions today. Thank God. Thank God I'm asking you questions about this. I thought you were answering all of them. I'm like quaking, like, oh God.
Speaker: But it's so it's a really, like, it's one of those topics that... needing to sort of go through a certain process in order to be actually trans in quotes, if you're listening rather than watching, um is something that a lot of people just assume is how it should be, right? Like it's, it's this idea of self identification is quite controversial outside of the trans community.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's kind of surprising to many trans and non-binary folks. Obviously, some welcome a process because sure as with anything, exploration, understanding oneself takes time, right? um But that aside, like how much involvement from government or the medical community is another bigger topic that...
Speaker: Adds complication to the matter, to the matter, to the mix. And sure I guess for just inviting cisgender audience members to think about what we're about to share from your own perspective. So if you as a cisgender person had to quote unquote prove your gender,
Speaker: how would that feel for you in the ways that we're going to describe? Because I think some of these are a bit surprising yeah to cisgender folks. And so it's good just to kind of imagine and feel into that to better understand the depths to which trans and non-binary folks can be frustrated on this topic.
Speaker: For sure. It's sort of like the process seen as necessary in order to make sure that people are, quote, making the right choice, but actually... that in theory there's that, but then how that actually plays up into people's lives is really invasive and actually pretty ludicrous. and So yeah, I'm excited to dive into it. And actually that's where I maybe wanted to start just um right at the basics, how you would define self-determination in the context of gender identity and what how that differs to how a lot of other places um set this up.
Speaker: Yeah. Self-determination. It's a big word. um some For some, it might even seem kind of confusing. Like, of course, we determine ourselves. Who who else would? um right but There's like a really complex set of layers involving society, what we expect for genders, what we've established as what we think is quote normal, right? So there's all this stuff just kind of swirling around just for anyone, um but particularly for trans and non-binary folks while they're trying to figure themselves out. and
Speaker: as soon as they go beyond you know themselves and their friendship circles, um family, and start to interact with the rest of society, and especially institutions, that self-determination piece becomes a bit fuzzy and more challenging.
Speaker: um where, quote, more proof has to be brought to bear. And it's not just any proof. People don't consider knowing oneself as proof, oddly enough. It's like got to be like independently verifiable, quote unquote, truth or, you know, objectivity or something like that. And that's where The medical profession often positions itself as that objectivity of like, we can know from the outside by measuring certain things that people are who they say they are.
Speaker: And was going to tell who isn't. And... um Yeah, I think there are things that people who have been in this profession long enough who have worked ah along alongside trans and non-binary folks, they may know some more things to be aware of to provide questions or thoughts or ideas for people to consider. That's not what I'm... That's okay. I think there's a time and a place for that. But it's when it comes to what we call gatekeeping um that it becomes problematic and... where people are prevented from taking next steps that they think are important for them, that they've had, you know, in a persistent, consistent manner.
Speaker: So um I don't know if you want me to go into examples or, but that's just kind of the broad framing. Yeah. For sure. I was hoping if you don't mind walking us through like what a typical pathway would look like where self identification isn't the norm and what um that heavy gatekeeping looks like and and what it's like to experience for trans people.
Speaker: Yeah. So I can speak a little bit from personal experience, but then, because I was kind of, I'm both a a cusp of generation, like between Gen X and millennial. We were just talking about that before we started the podcast. But I'm also on this cusp ah between, you know, this kind of objective approach um in heavy air quotes. It's not objective. uh to the self-determination so I was right on that border so I got both treatments um but not to the extent that I would say people who are older than me who are trans that came out earlier right so I know from storytelling and stats and and research and all that for a deeper view on that but what used to be the case or still is the case in say um places like the United States or around the world um
Speaker: that is different from self-determination is requirements for things like real lived experience. That's, it's the case in my country, in the UK, you have to have two years of real lived experience.
Speaker: Two years. Yeah. That's bananas. um It's so cool. It is. And some people are taken a bit aback. They're like, but wouldn't somebody want to kind of see what it's like, right?
Speaker: And it is positioned as something kind of thoughtful or of of concern for trans and non-binary folks. um They want people to be able to maintain employment and, you know, remain independent and et cetera, et cetera. And so this real lived experience, whether one to two years is supposed to emulate that.
Speaker: ah But what does that actually mean is vastly different and people have different objectives. Some people might not want to change their appearance, but through this real lived experience, it really means if you're a trans woman, for example, you will act in feminine ways, present in feminine ways, and You know, ah yeah,
Speaker: it's a very narrow definition of what a woman ought to be. And if she doesn't conform to that, there are questions. and um And if she doesn't, quote, fit in and she has troubles, that's considered her fault because she's not living up to these standards that society has, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: i'll give I want to give an example of my own friend who is a trans guy who came out, has always had extremely long hair, but I think this maybe had a haircut twice in his whole life and has incredibly long hair. And through the process of having to have um two years of lived experience, was told that he would need to cut his hair. And he didn't want to cut his hair. And so in the meeting, because there was other things you have to go through, you have to have psychiatric like meetings and you have to have a sort of panel conversation. He brought a picture of Jesus with him to prove that to prove that men can have long hair.
Speaker: Isn't that so good? Go to the source, you know, like when in doubt. It's is so funny. So cheeky. But um so that's what he did. it But but if he hadn't, you know, it's really scary to so sit in front of people and and persuade them that you're who you say you are. And so if he hadn't had the sort of arrogance that he has, you know, Maybe that would have been a thing to prove that he isn't who he is because he has long hair. It's so narrow. What does it mean to have lived experience? It's crazy.
Speaker: it's it's wild and it's being prescribed by people in power. There's a power difference, right? The the doctor or the professional healthcare professional has the power of the pen to say yes or no to this person. So in some instances, like your friend, they're able to self-advocate. In other instances, they're kowtowing to whatever it is, we'll do the song and dance, whatever it takes for me to get what I need. they'll, they'll comply, which is awful.
Speaker: Has its own trauma. It's horrible. Yeah. Yeah, ah to to go into something that is not true, especially after having lived not truly up until that point, right? It's just like, anyways, I could go on and on. Unfortunately, this is not just within the realm of medical access. This also is for access to services and things like shelters.
Speaker: We have worked with organizations that had that as a requirement. You had to have completed the two years of real lived experience, air quotes, and to get access to the shelter. And this is in people with high needs. And to put that kind of barrier in place is just awful.
Speaker: And so we were able to talk them through it. They realized what kind of, they just wanted to have some sort of measure in place. Um, But self-determination is far, far, far easier and also less harmful.
Speaker: Anyways, real lived experience. I'm sure we could do a whole podcast on that in and of itself because it's so, so, so harmful. Because neurodefinitions for a long time, and if things go wrong, it's that person's fault, not the system. What do mean that?
Speaker: ah So if, for example, if somebody is fired from their work, then that could be grounds for not to transition or to to allow them to transition because they can't hold down a stable job.
Speaker: And I'm like, no, that's because of discrimination right against trans people. like it's So to have the victim be blamed is like another layer of harm beyond being denied access to gender affirming care. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: um And, you know, some medical professionals are sympathetic and supportive of trans and non-binary folks. Others are not, especially in the past. They had a huge amount of biases that they leveraged against trans people in a very hostile, harmful way. So this is not kind of, um yeah, the the healthcare profession has a lot of things that it's done to trans people over the years.
Speaker: So there's that. ah The thing that I've heard from people who are older or much more into transition or transitioned earlier than me um is that, I think you mentioned it, the kind of a panel that you have to... um a There's a few different versions of this. So there's the like the panel of people who are interviewing you, which is very intimidating to talk about very personal things in front of a lot of people. But there's also...
Speaker: what used to be like group observations where people, a bunch of trans people met in a circle and then they were being observed behind like a ah dark, ah what's it called? a mirror or like, like interrogation style. What are we at the police office or police? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And, you know, psychiatrists taking notes about people's behaviors and their interests and, um you know, weird things like they're not weird, not that sexual proclivities are weird and of themselves, but that people want to know about them in relationship to gender is weird. Yeah.
Speaker: um So what are you going to get from that? Oh, I just feel so good. Like these people are in this room, being of knowing they're being observed and knowing that their future, their entire future is based on how they act and they don't know how they're supposed to act in order to, like what hoops do they need to jump through in order to get the thing that they need. Like it's horrible. What?
Speaker: yeah All determined by what somebody else deems appropriate for the gender that they are. Yeah. It just, it's crazy. know. It's so, like, I think in the future, will hopefully in our society get to a place where we like, we did, can't even believe what we used to do with trans people. like, you when we think about 100 years ago, what they used to do, like cut people open. Yeah, like lobotomize women because they didn't like their husbands. Yeah. Diagnosed as hysteria. It's like, what? crazy.
Speaker: Because they didn't want to be treated poorly. What? Shut up. One thing that I experienced and some degree still exists is a bunch of psych tests. um I think it's less – they're still interviews, but they're a little bit less invasive. They're kind of like, what are your goals? What what are your needs? What are your interests? Kind of – and like look exploring the options and look matching things up for folks, which is a lot more supportive of a stance versus what I got was an interview with then like, ah like I can't even remember how many, it was like 15 pages of questions of in psychological in nature. They're wanting to identify depression and, um you know, schizophrenia and bipolar and various other things. And then for those folks, it's even more hoop jumping because then they're suspicious, right? Like, what if this is a manic episode? um Not ah kind of ignoring the persistence and the consistency of this
Speaker: you know, felt experience. But anyways, I digress. um And what I found very peculiar beyond the psychological questions, which were quite repetitive, um but I guess that's the nature of them, ah is there were a lot of questions around sexuality.
Speaker: And I really didn't understand how those related at all and how giving that information would inform any sort of picture for them of my gender, right? And so it just felt very gross.
Speaker: Like, why do you need to know that? And those are personal matters that I can talk with my partner about, but I don't feel like i need to share with you as a healthcare professional. So, you know, it just felt really beyond the hoop jumping. it just felt really gross. Yeah.
Speaker: and like prying eyes and ah people but they they can't even explain why they need that information but somehow it's a part of their assessment anyways And then I had like psychologists write very bizarre stuff about me where I'm like, what? ah Because they give you the letters because you then pass them on to your surgeon and whatnot. But I'm just like, you don't know me at all. If you're writing. You don't have to go into like what they said specifically about you, but more just like in general, what do you mean? like one One interesting tidbit, just so you have a sense, and it's it's kind of a a funny one now, but back then was like a big a bigger deal for me. um
Speaker: ah One psychologist, she wrote um that i'm I'm a meek man. And I was like, what? Yeah. What are you talking about? what And I'm like, based on two meetings, you're able to, and I think she was trying to explain why it took me, quote, so long, 33 years, I guess is too long to figure something out. And... And i was like, what and that's probably why it took me so long because I'm meek and I'm like, okay, sure. Whatever you say, whatever you need to write. But then also how does that tie to gender identity? I don't know. It's so bananas. Anyways. But also like it's a power dynamic and you might be a little quieter anyway because you're trying to get, rent listen to you knowing that you have all of this stuff to jump through. That's kind
Speaker: I don't. Ew. I know. Ew. That's a good caption for this whole thing. o So just like, and this is the thing, like the the I mean, this is mild in comparison to other things, right? And so I always want to contextualize there are many more hostile, awful things so that people have experienced. But this gives you some flavor of just like, yeah.
Speaker: weirdly incoherent and wildly irrelevant things that, you know, get kind of like painted all over trans people willy nilly because people don't frankly have a clue what to do.
Speaker: um Right. Rather than how about just believe trans people, which in thankfully in Canada, most provinces now we have gotten there, but took a while. One last thing i want to note, actually a few more things. ah In the past, and in some places still the case, that you actually have to transition to a, well, you're already the gender that you are, but um you need to transition so such that you are straight.
Speaker: So somehow- Yes, going to ask you about this. yeah sexual orientation gets woven in there. And in fact, which might come as a bit of a surprise to some folks, in in certain places, very conservative places even, um transition is supported as long as you're going to be straight.
Speaker: Like... that is the gig and that becomes complicated we don't need to talk about that part but um yes with sexual orientation but um all that to say is you know that tells you just how strong these norms are of being cisgender and being heterosexual Like you can't be a gender other than that.
Speaker: So if I had come out and set like it back in the day and I'm like, no, I'm actually bi people like no you can't transition. You've got to only date women as a man.
Speaker: Yeah. Wow. It's very, very, it just puts trans people in this impossible place where they have to adhere to criteria that have nothing to do with their experience in order to get the the help that they need or the support that they need. And it's just like, who has, who says, who says that trans people have to be straight?
Speaker: Cis people don't have to be straight. it's right It's crazy that you have to leap through these things. these hoops. It's just ludicrous. that And it's still the case. And I wanted to ask you kind of historically what has been the case with Canada because, for example, I've been reading a book at the moment that described an experience of a trans woman who had no choice but to go through surgery in order to be accepted as trans. and That was a while ago, but ah like she wrote a book last year. So it's still very much in the... it's not It wasn't that long ago. So, yeah, I wanted to know what...
Speaker: And that's true of many countries that are, in theory, supportive of trans people. Yeah. I mean, if you have to, because in many cisgender minds, gender is located in the genitals.
Speaker: right Like, I'll be that frank. it genitals equals Gender equals genitals, right? And so in people's concept, if you're going to update your ID to be that of a different sex, you have to have those genitals.
Speaker: And so that used to be the case. Like, in order... ah for you to be accepted as the woman, the man, you know any other gender. Actually, back then they didn't have a concept of non-binary folks, but um you had to undergo lower surgery, even if it's not what you wanted.
Speaker: Actually, most trans people don't want lower surgeries. Like, I think that comes as of a bit of surprise to folks. of Obviously, it depends on the procedure, the than the levels of access. But all that to say, not everybody is wanting that. And so to force that um to kind of comply, force cisness on trans trans people is, like, deeply harmful. And um for for trans people, there isn't that kind of interweaving of one's anatomy with one's identity.
Speaker: It's such a ah violation of your own body autonomy, that you like bodily autonomy, that you have to you have to undergo such a ah huge surgery that may not even be what you want for your own body just to appease some higher power to let you be who you are. It's um shocking a movie and, yeah, it's outrageous that trans people would treat it that way.
Speaker: No longer the case in in Canada, I will say. That's not a requirement is based on just self-determination. What you say is who you are. And there's not the kind of having to take hormones or s surgerygeries do surgeries or whatnot. um Back in the day, ah used to to be able to compete in the Olympics, you had to have undergone lower surgery. Even though there's no connection to right competition, to whether you have one or the other or a range of genitals. You know what I mean? This is like... this cra What? Sorry, you want to play tennis, so you need to have lower surgery. Sorry? Yeah.
Speaker: What has this got to do with it? That's... This makes me so sick. This topic makes me sick. ah ah It's so gross. Well, and that's why, you know, many contested it. And I think it was Chris Mosier who was successful in that kind ah contest, ah contesting it and was able to remove that as a criteria, but not until very recently, like too recently.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We mentioned about um this sort of these wait periods that of like real lived experience what um and needing that in order to get even an appointment or like just to get yourself on the pathway of the care that you need. And so I i wanted you to describe, if it's OK with you, the what that kind of delay can actually do to somebody's life. Mm hmm. in this sort of like both practically but also kind of emotionally what that does that you have to sit you'll sit through that oh yeah waiting is awful the thing is that it takes so long for some not everyone so long to figure oneself out right so much energy so much kind of wringing of one's hands and thinking through scenarios and then when you find you're like okay
Speaker: this is it. This is who I am. um Maybe people have tested things out, you know, whatnot, like gone through their thing. And then if, especially if they need some sort of adjustment in their body in particular, and then there's yet more things to do, um that delay is actually torture for many. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Right. It's, it's not just like a simple, okay, yeah, minor ache in your hand or something like, no, this is baseline everyday torture, um just there all the time. And the uncertainty of when you get access, depending on how many hoops or, you know, curve balls in the road where it's like some doctors power tripping and um has laid some sort of curve ball in the, in the mix. like or some document delay, you know, you just never know. and so it's totally out outside of one's control.
Speaker: It can take, depending on the the the surgery or access need, can take anywhere from a few months to five years. Obviously lower surgery is the the longer wait time.
Speaker: And that for some is wait time. too much, right, ah for them to bear. and in some instances, although not everyone, um there can be attempts on their lives, right? Like that's the level of despair that we're talking about. It's not an easy thing to carry around.
Speaker: um particularly if you know one has come to a better understanding of oneself, and now society has a hard time being able to accept that or embrace that or to see that even. And these delays preventing one from getting there to be fully accepted is just...
Speaker: I'm sure there's much more I could say on it, but that gives some texture. And, you know, certainly real lived experience is some aspect of waiting, but the especially within socialized healthcare care here in Canada, wait times still persist in a very deep and real way.
Speaker: Where like what we're waiting one to two years for top surgery and, you know, two to three, maybe more years for lower surgery. That's bananas. for For sort of reference on how bad this is in the UK, where we have the two years lived experience, two years of lived experience in order to get an appointment, in order to be referred. So you have the two years and then after you have the referrals, it's six to 10 years before you can even start, for example, HRT. Unless you go through a private route and that's not surgeries, thats which is a whole other thing. This is just to get hormones. And so it is horrifying- Just hormones? so Just HRT. No, no, it's terrible. And it does depend on where you are, but like that's not great either that it doesn't, it's not consistent. So um yeah, for for British trans people, two years lived experience, then five to 10 years or six to 10 years. I think at the average is six years wait on top of the two years lived experience in order to just start hormones. It is agony for trans people.
Speaker: And that is only getting worse because... Yeah. For the various, a lot of reasons that we don't need to go into, but it's, um, it's a horrifying prospect for, for them. Wow.
Speaker: That's, that's really awful. And then what happens is that, like you were saying, it's this two tiered system where if you can afford it, you get access to the care, but if you don't have the means, you're, you're forced into this torture.
Speaker: Like, so it's like an economic thing. or you're forced to do it illegally as well which ah which is which does happen where people will access for example testosterone um through uh illegal means and then they don't have support that they need they don't have the like checks they don't have like there are a whole ah lot of things that that um they're sort of put in a position of this life-saving care or doing something illegal. And it's just, it's horrifying. Dang.
Speaker: That is so grim. And the wait times are just the staggering. And again, that's where I invite cis audience members to think about, you know, others not seeing who you are for that long and not having access to the body that you have now.
Speaker: Yeah. That's, um, that's no small thing. It's really, really, really awful. um One other thing I wanted to add into the mix, it's one other thing that can happen. And particularly I would say down in the United States, um you mentioned at the outset is having to go through courts to say who one is. And this is after the rigmarole of the medical, if that's what people access, is is a public um declaration that you have to put in the newspaper.
Speaker: to see if somebody objects to you providing your new name and gender marker. What? Like outing oneself? That's wild.
Speaker: Yeah. no no Nothing can ever happen. Nothing ever bad would happen in that instance. But also, what do you mean if somebody else reject like it denies or like has an objection to this? What? I don't know. Somebody somebody else. I've not heard situation. Yeah, somebody else can say no. naw But I don't know what they do with that information.
Speaker: Right. Like their opinion has any say and like has any sway. Sorry. And then also the danger that that comes from that. And and
Speaker: it's so cruel. It's it's like the point is to be cruel. Almost. It feels like it. Yeah. Yeah. When you kind of lay out all these things where you're like, what are you what's the objective here? Yeah. And some would say is like due diligence so that, you know, from the government's perspective that they said they went through a process and if, you know,
Speaker: people have objections later on, it'd be like, well, you could have said that something before and that was the window, you know? So it's like, like just buck covering. idea if If we can, ah, this makes me want to scream Kai. Sorry. It's infuriating. What has it got to do with someone else? That's ludicrous.
Speaker: Ew. So you mentioned that there is this meaningful difference in how hormones versus surgery should be approached. And so I was wondering if you could explain that line and where do you think sort of some level, like you mentioned that some level of process is reasonable, but where it versus where it clearly isn't reasonable at all.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think with hormone ah replacement therapy, um there is some amount of light monitoring that is necessary. But in terms of accessing it, um given that many of the effects are reversible, it seems that self-determination is a great tool. And in Canada is the case, right? Where people can be like, I would like hormones. You have a bit of conversation around it Talk about the effects, um you know yada, yada, yada. And then within pretty short order, um people and you know you sign an informed consent form saying we went through all this stuff and here's some of the negative things, here the benefits and all that jazz. Cool.
Speaker: um versus surgery obviously is a bigger step um lower and upper surgeries or or facial feminization surgeries vocal cords yeah that's when you want want to take a few more steps um you were you know ah maybe some questions about alignment and needs and Yeah, that's where you could understand a little bit more in there. Again, we don't want it to the extent where it's so restrictive that very few people get through this kind of gauntlet, but enough to you know give people the time um and to process this type of big step, right? So that's where I think there's a little bit better situated. There could still be aspects of self-determination so that you don't have to have so many hoops. um But that's just kind of some of the differentiation, ah particularly to healthcare. care But it could be other areas too, thinking about how to
Speaker: applies self-determination versus a little bit more of ah a process for people to go through and what which one like the self-determination if isn't that much involved why why not right so to to end this um episode then i was wondering if you could go into ah a really great example of just how much scrutiny is involved in this. And that is Janet Mock's interview that I will link in the show notes.
Speaker: Oh yes. Please watch the whole thing. It's very insightful. So yeah, Janet Mock is a famous trans author, um, director, writer, I think at one point she was a model. ah She's done a bunch of things in her storied life. um And she's brilliant. She has ah a book that I highly, or actually a few, I think, that I highly recommend. Anyways, all this to say, she did this clip with a cisgender woman.
Speaker: And basically, Janet was the interviewer. And the cis woman who was the interviewee. And Janet applied the kind of same style that she typically gets in all of, or many of her interviews, um especially in the past about how people ask about her gender, Janet's gender. She applied that to the cis woman.
Speaker: So just like, went full, full force in a way that kind of rocked or shook the cis woman because Janet went into, you know, what do your labia look like? You know, like, like went into the specificity that Janet gets on a different, in a different way, but still that is kind of shows the cis woman just how microscopic and, um,
Speaker: you know, just totally ah misaligned with where trans people are. Also, so invasive. It's so invasive. It's so, and it's so gross. I know we've said that a few times, but it's just like kind of so fixated on this very narrow, very small aspect of one's person. And, um, and it just kind of just mines that to death. Right.
Speaker: And in interviews with trans people, you can take a look at a few, The topic of surgeries is like always very frequently number one topic right out the gate, like no warm up, no nothing. Just like, do you have a penis or a vagina? Let's get into it. Whoa.
Speaker: Dang. It's crazy. Like I'm a person here in front of you, yeah you know, with so many interests. And this is the one you really want to hone in on. Okay. And like not even the thought as to why that might be uncomfortable or inappropriate because you're, yeah. Yeah. yeah So anyways, this, this woman got pummeled by Janet, uh, with these kind of gross, weird questions and, at the end you hear the cis woman and reflecting on that interview experience and she's like i had no idea like how awful and disgusting this is and it's totally shifted my thinking on everything and so i was like whoa okay sometimes you gotta get a bit of that experience to understand why trends and non-binary folks are are upset like understandably so absolutely
Speaker: Anyways, I invite you to go take a look at how Jenna expertly grills poor cis woman. Well, I'll, I'll link that in the show notes. Um, but yeah, is there anything else you wanted to add before we go?
Speaker: No, this has been a great topic just to to reflect further on how self-determination and autonomy are so important, obviously not just for trans and non-binary folks, but certainly um can doing a little bit of a deep dive on this topic allows us to see just how much, is especially in the past, but even even in the present in some places that still persists, that that concept that others know trans people better than themselves and can dictate what they should or shouldn't do.
Speaker: cool thank you so much kai uh for blowing my mind in this episode today you absolutely yes and it well yeah it was good to to walk it through just to illustrate that for others hopefully it creates more understanding hope so cool well i'll see you next week okay bye for now bye
