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Toxic Positivity And Stoicism (Episode 147)
839 Plays2 months ago
Is Stoicism just toxic positivity? No, obviously.
But what's the difference between toxic positivity and unrealistic optimism? And how can Stoics avoid the real risks of both?
In this episode, Caleb and Michael dive deep into Stoic practice and its alleged similarity to toxic positivity.
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Transcript
Misconceptions of Stoicism
00:00:00
Speaker
You suffer as a stoic when you try to skip to the end result. The stoics pursue truth, and they have arguments for why only good characters, good advice is bad, and why you shouldn't feel negative emotions. They have complex arguments for these. But this requires you to study. Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros. And I'm Michael Trombley.
00:00:20
Speaker
And today we're going to be talking about stoicism and toxic positivity or unrealistic optimism. Some of the issues that come up with, you know, interacting with other people, being stoic, but also there are also these questions about as a stoic, how do you think about issues like toxic positivity, harmful optimism, unrealistic expectations, and so on.
00:00:49
Speaker
Yeah, and I wanted to do this episode for two reasons. First, I think there's a misconception among non-stoics that becoming stoic at its worst could be toxic positivity or could be excuse ah for being toxically positive. And we'll talk about what that means, ah you know whether or not we think that's a ah relevant, even concept, toxic positivity. But there's it it's a it is a way to criticize the project of stoicism. So toxic positivity at its worst,
00:01:19
Speaker
maybe even harmful optimism, you know even if you're being more charitable, at least a blind ignorance to the bad things in the world um at your own expense. and i want to so but First, I want to address that and show why stoicism is not that and the difference between stoicism and toxic positivity. and The second reason I want to talk about this is I think there's also Even though stoicism is not those things, there is a risk that stoicism incorrectly practiced can lead to ah you know ah harmful side effects, can become toxic positivity or a kind of unrealistic optimism. And so by pulling those concepts apart and clarifying where stoicism ends and those other things begin, we can ah you know help people, myself included, clarify and avoid those kind of pitfalls that I think are common.
00:02:13
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So we have those those two prongs. There's a misconception on behalf of non-stoics perhaps, and then also the real risk that stoics might in some ways support that misconception by their own practice. that That's similar to the charge that stoicism is just about you know suppressing feelings or just about resilience, that lowercase stoic.
Stoic Philosophy vs. 'Small Stoic' Behaviors
00:02:44
Speaker
You have that same issue misconception on behalf of non-stoics where they see stoicism as just this limited project.
00:02:50
Speaker
ah But also the risk, behalf of stoics themselves, of either over-rating resiliency, or i so I suppose perhaps sometimes people might, though this is less common, do the opposite, under-rate resiliency as a way to respond to non-stoics.
00:03:08
Speaker
Yeah. ah Yeah, I think that's right. and and And then there's this thing, because I think just to take a step further, there's this idea of, well, it gets conflated with the small estosism, which is this idea of just you know not feeling any negative emotions and things like this. And then I think that the um unrealistic optimism or toxic positivity are then the Well, what's wrong with being a small estoic? Well, it leads to these things that are bad things. And then and then so that's why we don't want to be a small estoic. Not only is a small estoic wrong or not accurate, not the same thing as the philosophy, the robust philosophy of stoicism, but it can lead to these consequences. So yeah, as you said, two prongs of attack and we'll see how we go. And I know that you i kelly we were talking about this a but before the episode. I wouldn't say we necessarily disagree about this, but what we this is still something we're figuring out and actively discussing. So <unk> we'll we'll debate a bit of this as we go as well.
00:03:59
Speaker
Nice. yeah We should all have some debate detours. We'll see. Yeah. Pull ourselves back on track if we have to. um Cool. so so For the episode, we're going to talk about what is toxic positivity and unrealistic optimism, and what is the differences between stoicism and those things, and then talk a bit about the genuine risks of stoics of falling into those pitfalls, as we said.
Toxic Positivity and Unrealistic Optimism
00:04:19
Speaker
so To kick things off, what is toxic positivity and what is unrealistic optimism?
00:04:24
Speaker
You know, I'm not a psychologist and these are just, you know, these are, these are ways of thinking about phenomenon we see in people or ways that people can relate to resiliency in their emotions. And so I've put together a little definition. I think that toxic positivity, you know, as it, as it, if we're going to use it meaningfully is when you don't acknowledge negative emotions or the possibility of poor outcomes, either for yourself or for others.
00:04:49
Speaker
And this is closely related to this idea of unrealistic optimism, but I think they're worth pulling apart. And for me, harmful optimism is when you don't acknowledge the possibility of negative emotions or poor outcomes and it harms yourself. It's kind of an unrealistic, unpragmatic worldview that Doesn't lead you know, you don't prepare yourself for negative situations. You don't expect them You don't see them coming and then you're harming yourself and then I would say toxic positivity is When you go a step further and you actually start harming other people so you start forcing other people into that box about well No, you're not allowed either to feel negative things or you're not allowed to bring up
00:05:31
Speaker
bad emotions or, you know, the fact that you think something is, you know, a terrible thing has happened because that's ah you because I'm this optimistic person. Now you're pushing back against that. So I'm going to force you also to be in that box of optimism and you start harming other people or letting them down in in your the way that you're supposed to support them.
00:05:50
Speaker
So that's the distinction. I mean, the closely related, for me, I think that one is just when it starts to affect others, that's toxic positivity. And then unrealistic optimism is just whenever you're overly optimistic, and that's kind of harming yourself, because you're not seeing the world as it is. Any thoughts on those definitions? Yeah, so does it the main difference just has to do with unrealistic optimism holds you back, toxic positivity holds you back, but also it has this social aspect where you are sharing you know your thought patterns essentially with others, either shaming them, causing them to be ah positive in a way that is unrealistic, unhealthy, not accurate.
00:06:38
Speaker
Not helpful. yeah i that that That's the core of it. That's what I'm working with. i'm I'm totally open to changing these, but I'm trying to call across these kind of two different aspects. one is you know One is, I guess, a personal thing that harms yourself and the other is that something that you know becomes almost an ethical problem. You almost start letting other people down and and harming your relationships in that social way. yeah That's that's that's the what I'm working with, but um yeah flexible to changing those, but I think that's a useful distinction.
00:07:09
Speaker
Nice, yeah, that makes sense. Let's go through some of those, um some of these examples you have then here then and draw that out. So i so with these definitions that i've made that I've made up, I think that unrealistic optimism, it's it's maladaptive optimism that just harms you. It's just an unrealistic perspective of the world. um And it's not directed towards other people, as we said. So a really famous example of this is ah Admiral Stockdale's story on who broke first ah who you know who suffered the most in the prisoner of war camp, those that aren't familiar with Admiral Stockdale. He was a
Admiral Stockdale's Story
00:07:44
Speaker
member of the US military, spent I think around seven years in a prisoner of war camp um in Vietnam. and he talked about He was there with other Americans and he spoke about who
00:07:56
Speaker
You know, who was able to persevere, who was able to be resilient in this really, you know, really terrible, terrible situation. An example of kind of most robust resiliency. And he actually pointed out that the people who were not resilient ah were the optimists. And this is his quote. The people who had the people who broke first, they were the optimists.
00:08:13
Speaker
Uh, they were the ones who said, we're going to be out by Christmas and Christmas would come and Christmas would go. And then they'd say, we're going to be out by Easter and Easter would come and Easter would go and then Thanksgiving. And then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart. And so this is an example of how, you know, when you're setting yourself up with these expectations, you think you're empowering yourself because you're being optimistic. You think you're giving yourself energy, but you're actually setting yourself up for failure.
00:08:40
Speaker
um i think of this ah Another way to think of unrealistic optimism, I think is maybe the opposite of the practice of memento mori or pre-meditatio malorum. So those are those stoic exercises, memento moris, remember death. Pre-meditatio malorum is just to consider bad things before they happen, contemplate what it would be like if the bad thing happened.
00:09:01
Speaker
so yeah and the In the Stocktail example, pre-meditatio malorum is to say, consider what it would be like if you didn't get out at Thanksgiving. What would you do? How would you handle that? What if you weren't out by Christmas? What if you weren't out by next Christmas? And so you're contemplating that. You're building your resiliency for for that by thinking about it. And we can think of unrealistic optimism as yeah the person who not only doesn't do that, but almost does the opposite, almost ah feeds themselves these hopes and these these dreams without a reason to think about them.
00:09:33
Speaker
Another example of this, we can think about it in Epictetus. This is a a story I talk about a lot, but when he talks to that father who ran away from home when his when his daughter was sick because he couldn't handle ah the stress, basically, of of the possibility of his daughter passing away.
00:09:49
Speaker
And there's a lot of ways we can talk about that that story. But one part of that story, I think, is somebody who just was not prepared or resilient to or had not sufficiently considered the possibility of a terrible thing happening to their daughter, you know, burying a child before ah as a parent, just even just that that ah that possibility. And so wasn't prepared for it, wasn't resilient to it.
Stoic Practices vs. Blind Optimism
00:10:13
Speaker
So that's what I have in mind is some examples of of that's what makes the optimism harmful is it just it makes you kind of weak and not resilient when the the bad things do come. Yeah, that that story is a good example because that's a nice case, I think, of where unrealistic optimism can go wrong. Or, you know, like, what's the outcome of unrealistic optimism? You can imagine the father just didn't have, as you said in mind, the possibility that his daughter would become seriously sick and hadn't asked himself what he would do in such a situation, what he ought to do.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think you raised a good point there because because they because I think the often the criticism of of this criticism, the pushback from the optimist would be like, well, what's the harm? It makes me feel good. What's the problem? And so as you said, yeah, this is one of the problems, right? Yeah, yeah. I think unrealistic optimism is a really useful notion and something that is essentially stoic. as but I think the the example from Stockdale, famous stoic is also a good one.
00:11:20
Speaker
perhaps another way to to get at it is in the stoic view, it's assuming that something is going to happen in reality and often something that you've invested, seriously invested your wellbeing in that is external to you, or yeah you know something positive is going to happen, or that something negative is not going to happen. yeah so those those are those I suppose that's how the way the Stoic would would see it is. you have this expectation of reality that's unwarranted and you've have sort of invested yourself in that outcome. so's So I think the classic mistake the Stoics accuse us of making is you're not being robust to fortune because we are in many real senses unrealistically optimistic.
00:12:13
Speaker
I think you hit the nail on the head there. that's a really That's a really great way of putting it because it's not unrealistic optimism. I'm trying to think of not ah of a silly example, but you know if you flip a coin and you think the coin is going to come up heads, it's not unrealistic optimism. It comes up tails. You were wrong, but who cares? You didn't invest yourself in that.
00:12:31
Speaker
But when you think, oh, well, it's going to be sunny next week and I'm going to be able to have a picnic, ah um you know there's no point. you' you've You've ascribed your wellbeing or put your wellbeing into that outcome and you have no guarantee of that outcome. It's outside of your control. And so you've made yourself vulnerable to fortune. That's kind of a silly example, but we can do, and then the more intense you go. And I think what you called attention to also is this idea that unrealistic optimism is no different than unrealistic pessimism. It's like really putting your wellbeing and something outside of your control and whether that's like, Oh, well, I'm going to fail anyway. So who cares? Why should I try?
00:13:15
Speaker
I shouldn't apply for that job. I shouldn't, shouldn't talk to that person because they're not going to like me anyway. That kind of unrealistic pessimism would be the same way and unrealistic optimism is a flip. And I think the unrealistic optimism can feel good in the moment, feel a lot better than the pessimism in the moment, but it brings with it the same amount of vulnerability. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's a, that's a great point. I think they're, they're forms of the same mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
00:13:42
Speaker
Um, and then, so then, so then moving from that to toxic positivity, again, these are my definitions. There's things for us to talk about in relation to stoicism. Um, I think toxic positivity is it's unrealistic optimism that harms others. Or, you know, if you want to use stoic language, your ability to fulfill your role.
00:13:58
Speaker
So a toxically positive person, though they'll never admit that when something's wrong, they'll shame themselves for feeling negative emotions and other people, and then they'll have little sympathy or time for the negative emotions of others in a way that's bad for the people around them. So I brought up some examples. So imagine a boss who's not receptive to negative feedback or not able to have candid discussions of what's wrong with a company, a parent who's unable to acknowledge or engage with the negative emotions of their children, and so they're not able to parent well.
00:14:28
Speaker
a friend who's unable or unwilling to discuss negative situations, only ever pointing out that things happen for a reason. you know That friend you come to for advice or sympathy, and then they're just like, well, ill get over it. It's not really that big of a deal. I think what all these examples have in common from a stoic perspective is that this unrealistic optimism it this unwillingness to engage with an aspect of human existence and an aspect of human life is actually making them unable to fulfill their roles, making them kind of ah having almost an ethical failure in that sense and harming the people around them and themselves. Next. Yeah. So again, the central failure is ah or the central part of this concept is that it's social and
00:15:15
Speaker
it's a kind of optimism that's that's that treats others wrongly. yeah yeah as As you say, whether that's not responding to the contents of you know their negative feelings, negative judgments, or perhaps even it's not creating so I think sometimes people talk about creating a culture or a way of being where you're not even responding to others, you're almost exuding a kind of positivity that is fragile in a way that doesn't um doesn't allow for you know any amounts of sadness or tragedy. Always seeing that silver lining even when it's unhelpful to do so or even yeah when there may may not be one at all.
00:16:03
Speaker
Yeah, um yeah that the exuding energy that's fragile is, and I think we've all like we've all experienced that either in that form or a different form. Somebody who you're like, wow, you're not a person that I can really talk to about these kind of things, or like your you're not, this is not helpful even though you think it is. I think we've all kind of experienced that kind of interaction. and We don't need to pathologize people, but we can all kind of act this way in some points. We've all either been that like this or experienced this.
00:16:33
Speaker
um And so what I wanted to call attention to is that there seems to be a lot of similarities then between stoicism and unrealistic optimism or toxic positivity, at least on the surface. Well, should we take our first detour here and see, maybe this will it'll nicely move into what you have for similarities and differences. but
00:16:56
Speaker
I probably should have said this upfront, but I have a view on toxic positivity and it's not a concept that plays any role, I think, in my own thought when I'm thinking about my own actions or thoughts with regard to others or myself, or
Redefining 'Toxic Positivity'
00:17:14
Speaker
thinking about others. you Are they acting in a way that's exuding toxic positivity?
00:17:22
Speaker
And yeah, we'll see if, ah This changes my mind. I should say that the I think it the term is pointing at something real, but my main, some of my main objections or concerns with this term is the thought that it's relatively new. I think it was first used in 2010 or so took off at 2020.
00:17:51
Speaker
And the people, I think the people are cultures who tend to use it, tend to both use it in a wide range of ways. It's somewhat vague in a way. I think unrealistic optimism is a very precise term. Toxic positivity is not. And it's often associated with placing too much emphasis on feelings,
00:18:20
Speaker
the people who accuse others of being toxicly positive I think are often neurotic or just prefer neurotic cultures, which isn't so much of a criticism. But the use of the word toxic I think does indicate that someone is acting wrongly, you not fulfilling their roles in a way that ah may often be misguided. It may just be different preferences on you know how much neuroses do you allow in your culture and so on.
00:18:49
Speaker
um So yeah, there's, I think there's a lot there, but if I were to try to boil that, those different concerns first, there's a kind of vagueness, the term that we're going to tease out in this conversation. And the fact that I think it's associated with a culture that tends to place too much emphasis on feelings and tends to be more, uh, neurotic than, than other cultures.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm not, I'm not familiar with the cultural association. So this is something that i've I've, you know, although I feel comfortable making a podcast on it, but I'm not, but I'm not super familiar with the cultural association for me. It's just yeah what I've seen, you know, and then the brief research I did before this, I do think it calls out something and there's something we can put a, there's some, there's some aspect of the world that I want to put a box on that I've just defined as those things. Right. Which is like unrealistic optimism that's harmful to people around you.
00:19:49
Speaker
And the way that I'm i'm taking what you're saying comes like do we want to take that do we want to co-op this term then toxic positivity because it comes with a certain cultural baggage. And that cultural baggage you're saying is.
00:20:02
Speaker
It tends to be, I don't want to necessarily use the word the term weaponized, but the idea is it it can be used actually too far in the other way of like, I can feel whatever I want to feel. You can't you know you can't say I'm feeling something wrong. You can't put a box on.
00:20:19
Speaker
uh, box around me or, or tell me to feel differently or not feel this negative thing. And then the people that are using the term toxic positivity are being anti so or anti-stoic in a way, because what's those things looking to do is it's looking to, you know, keep healthy emotions, but call out and identify unhealthy emotions, passions, and rightly, maybe if not shame, maybe in some cases, shame, Epictetus certainly shames his students, but you know, maybe shame carefully and intentionally. And in other cases, criticize.
00:20:50
Speaker
ah or point out the faults with with harmful emotions and then if somebody uses while you're being toxically positive as a catch-all to justify whatever they're feeling, that's not that's not really healthy either. um That's the criticism. is there is there ah Is there another term you would use? Would you still just say, would you just call all of this unrealistic optimism then and just say, let's throw toxic positivity all together because it comes with that baggage?
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, well, i let's see. Perhaps I don't have a a good term for some of these examples. Some of you are examples where the you know the friend's unwilling to discuss some negative situation. Sometimes that's because the friend is being unrealistically optimistic. you know They say, oh, this happened. you know You try to explain a given situation. I'll say it'll turn out for the best.
00:21:41
Speaker
whatever it is and come up with some fancy story that makes things for now the best. That's totally unrealistic, totally unhelpful. you know That's unrealistic optimism in action. There is a different kind of yeah mistake though, which is like the your boss example where the boss is not receptive to negative feedback.
00:22:00
Speaker
or they are scared, we're not willing to you know have hard conversations about what's wrong with a given employee or what's wrong with the company's strategy.
00:22:15
Speaker
that's a kind of ah different Those might not be unrealistic optimism. there's a kind of In the first one, there may be some issues with ego being too personally fragile, whatever it is. In the second one,
00:22:30
Speaker
a kind of unwillingness to look at certain parts of reality or deal with certain parts of reality. And I think that' i think that that's what carves out the difference between toxic positivity, again, in my own mind here, between toxic positivity and unrealistic optimism is toxic positivity almost, there's almost the kind of anger that can come with it.
00:22:49
Speaker
or a kind of, uh, as you said, a fragility, like we can't even bring these things up. Like don't even mention the possibility of these things or I'm offended. You would even say that as opposed to, you know, the, the unrealistic optimist where it's like, you know, what happens if you fail and they're like, I won't fail. And they're kind of secure, but they're like inaccurate, right? Like they're, they don't have a reason to make that claim. So they're, they're, they're unrealistic, but there's a security there where I find the toxicity can sometimes come from.
00:23:18
Speaker
You know, whatever that means, just means kind of an unhealthy but behavior can come from that fragility. And I think those are different experiences, you know? Yeah, you're right. I think if you were to associate it with other vices, sometimes you can see pride as a vice that's associated with this. An example where someone doesn't take any feedback or what have you. I think there's another, there's probably another vice though, which is just not, and it's especially important that it's social in a social sphere is not being, it's almost just like I think a kind of cowardice, not being willing to have difficult encounters with others, being too agreeable or using positivity to avoid, you know, conflict in a way that's, you know, too conflict averse.
00:24:13
Speaker
Yeah. And then conflict a verse either in being kind of meek or agreeable, but there can also be conflict a verse in, you can be conflict a verse, but not agreeable, which is to say you kind of dominate things with the, with the positivity too. Um, sure, sure. Yeah. And then you's a good point you're, you're, you're a verse to like genuine conflicts. We were versed in not being in a position of power, um, which comes from that criticism.
00:24:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Well, I think there's certain, I think there are different kinds of vices here. So to that extent, the term toxic positivity does point at something real. Uh, but I would still, when I'm thinking about these sorts of situations, I would try to see, is this a situation that involves pride, overbearing positivity or cowardice. And I think that that's a little bit, that's more precise and it doesn't have this issue of a kind of, I think, neurotic and flexibility that you sometimes see, or at least that I sometimes see when the term, you know, toxic positivity is thrown around. Yeah. Cool. So maybe to summarize or or what I hear you saying is this, um you know, let's be specific. Maybe a heart toxic positivity can be like an umbrella term, but there's different ways it can manifest. There's different reasons it can manifest. and And maybe you can use that term, but call it out. Like if it's an issue of pride, call it pride. If it's an issue of cowardice, call it cowardice.
00:25:47
Speaker
Um, be clear on what the kind of the issue is that's leading to this inability to look at the, the hard stuff or the bad stuff in the face. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't use the term, but I think we we could go, uh, we could keep on going and and disagreements about what when you use terms, when you don't, but, uh, I think that's, that's a good gloss. Yeah, cool. Um, so.
Confusion Between Stoicism and Positivity
00:26:10
Speaker
whether you know whether or not we want to call it toxic positivity or what, we're we're we're calling out ah a something in the world, right? We're calling out a feature of behavior um and something that people rightly want to avoid and some people, other people might call you as you start to practice docism or as you continue to practice docism. And it's like, well, how do you respond to that then? you know These people incorrectly using a term. um So, and and to be fair, I guess it's ah it's a,
00:26:36
Speaker
be charitable, there's a reason people would say this. So on the surface, there seems to be a lot in common with unrealistic optimism or toxic positivity and stoicism. And these are the similarities. First, stoicism will not consider or does not consider many situations as being bad and harmful, even when they seem that way to other people or they are considered bad and harmful in traditional you know society, social expectations.
00:27:05
Speaker
including things like losing your job, getting sick, even at extremes like a death in the family. If you're you know a sage, you're you're looking at that situation differently. you're you're If you if somebody somebody gets fired and you're like, well, vice is the only real bad, sorry, can't help you here, you know you're you're bumping up against social expectations, definitely.
00:27:26
Speaker
To stoics want to eliminate passions or any negative emotion um based on incorrect beliefs. So stolen still looks don't have that kind of non judgmental acceptance of negative emotions.
00:27:41
Speaker
there They're comfortable judging ah some negative emotions, passions, ones based on incorrect beliefs, as being false, um harmful to the individual, so and and not needing kind of reassurance or validation. It's like, I shouldn't validate you if you're doing something bad. right the The third similarity, so Stoics, especially new practice in Stoics, they often have trouble immediately sympathizing with the passionate responses of other people.
00:28:10
Speaker
Um, which is to say that you can come off harsh to other people, especially someone like, Oh, you know, this just happened to me. Can you believe it? And there's almost the kind of routine they want you to play into where they want you to kind of a moat or mirror their feelings. And if you start not doing that, people will be like, well, what's wrong with this person? You know, what's going on here?
00:28:31
Speaker
And the fourth similarity is that stoics, they will sometimes use shame as a motivating factor, and rightly so. And so, you know, not only will they not feed into inappropriate grief for um some passions, but they might actually actively shame you if you're, if you're you know, feeling things like anger.
00:28:51
Speaker
uh you know or jealousy or something like this is being like you know that's that's a not only is that an unhealthy unproductive emotion it's based on kind of a nasty belief and i'm gonna call you out for that i'm not just gonna feed into it um so i think if you're i think if you're not a practicing stoic You know, the same way I don't know much about cars, two cars look the same to me. If I'm not a practicing, I can't tell the difference between a Mercedes and a Porsche. And if you're not a practicing stoic, you can counter a stoic who doesn't validate you because you're angry and a toxicly positive person who doesn't validate you when you're angry. They can kind of seem the same. They come off the same. Anything to say on on those similarities? and But i you know I don't think they're the same and I want to call out the differences, but anything to say on the similarities before we move on to the differences?
00:29:37
Speaker
Well, yeah, I think you can see why someone would accuse a stoic of being toxically positive. And in some cases, it's yeah they're going to be correct and others, they might be wrong. So it's it's interesting to think about, you know, how would you respond?
00:29:53
Speaker
to that accusation or at least perhaps even that possibility and behavior. I think, yeah, and we yeah we should get into that for sure. Yeah. So they here are the tools. If someone accuses you, you can rattle off these philosophical arguments and persuade them like a Socratic dialogue and they'll be like, of course, of course Michael, how could I not see? um and And everything will be great. If only philosophy worked this way.
00:30:17
Speaker
um so the So what's the difference? you know They seem the same at a high level, and in some ways the actual behavior will be the same, but the but you know the grounding behind the the behavior, the reasoning for the behavior is not. The reasoning you're shaming the angry person is not. So what's the difference here?
Stoic Philosophy Explained
00:30:34
Speaker
Well, the first difference is that the Stoics seek truth.
00:30:37
Speaker
So they're not willfully ignorant. They they seek truth. So an unrealistic optimist, I could say there's somebody who is not seeking truth. They're probably seeking a feeling. They want to not be sad. They want to not be anxious. They want to be stressed. And so they adopt blindly whatever perspective will make them feel that way. The prisoner of war wants to feel hope. And so they adopt the view that will make them in in the moment feel hope, even if it's long term, not the best thing for their emotional well-being.
00:31:08
Speaker
And you know that that's that's not judgmental. I mean, I think obviously it's understandable why the person would want would want that, but that's still the case of putting a feeling above the truth. And so um the the the Stoics do admit, and this is sometimes missed, because they know they say things like, virtue or vice is the only bad. But the Stoics will admit that some things are worse than others. They use the term, disproportal just prefer a difference. And we have an episode on indifference. um So they they don't use the term bad because they want to save that for a special category of bad things, which is when you have a bad character.
00:31:46
Speaker
But they do have this term, disproportionate difference, which is to say, you know, my life can go perfectly well if this happens, but I don't want this to happen. It's better off if it doesn't happen. And so there is in the stoic values.
00:32:03
Speaker
a kind of complexity about the way things are going. Some things are worse than others, some things you prefer over others. There's this line by Seneca, um you know let not the eyes be dry when we have lost a friend, nor let them overflow. We may weep, but we must not wail. And that's Seneca from his moral letters, ah letter 63.
00:32:26
Speaker
So um you can cry, you can have wet eyes, but you but you should not wail. And that's that idea of you know there's this there's this nuance to the world, there's things we would prefer not happen, there are things that are some situations that are worse than others in a sense, um but ah you know nothing nothing that is so terrible to destroy us.
00:32:50
Speaker
And all this is to say that the stomach is happier than other people because they genuinely think the world is a better place than most other people think it is. They think that there's some dispreferred things, but there's a lot less bad things than people think there are. And when they when they see it that way, they just try to align their feelings with that reality. And when they do that, they have a ah more robust, more resilient happier emotional life than other people do, not because they're trying to to think the way that will make them feel good, but just because when they think about the world, ah they will feel good because they recognize that things are not as bad as other people think they are, even though, you know, there's things that are less preferable than others. And there's some situations that are, you know, you try to avoid if you have to. And that's the that's the difference between the harmful optimist or the unrealistic optimist who tries to, you know, see the world in the way that will make them feel the best.
00:33:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think this is a crucial point and you certainly can see maybe Epictetus is most like this the most has the most toxic optimism of any of the any of the three where I think there's this this sense that things are going to turn out for the best. I ah terrible events. So Seneca has a little bit of this to something because maybe someone consistent here mentions, you know, sages facing terrible events unscathed.
00:34:11
Speaker
But at the same time, I think it's important to remember that this sort of this fundamental stoic optimism is that whatever situation you are in, happiness is possible, you know, whatever life you've been given happiness is possible. But that's consistent with recognizing a lot of vice, a lot of just preferred indifference in the world, you know, there's, if you can still recognize ah that there is tragedy in the world and no one is going to emerge unscathed. The fundamental stoic optimism is that happiness is still possible, but that shouldn't come at the expense of downplaying these obstacles we face. Yeah. and And that connects to the second point, which is just that the
00:34:58
Speaker
I think the stoic view of emotions is a lot more complex than the unrealistic, optimistic view of emotions. um so the The second difference I would say is that the the the stoics view emotions as a craft.
00:35:12
Speaker
they're not ah It's not a binary because the truth is complex. So the emotions are complex because um the truth is complex and we're always trying to correctly judge the truth. We're always trying to understand the world as it is and that's a craft and a skill, kind of an intellectual skill that takes time.
00:35:31
Speaker
and so For the Stoics, a healthy emotional life, it's like being a skilled athlete or a craftsman. It's a skill you develop over time and it requires a keen sense for the nuance of each situation, where you think of that like an artist or an athlete or a skilled carpenter.
00:35:51
Speaker
Unrealistic optimism, it's like me following the IKEA instructions. you know It's the furthest thing from being a skilled carpenter. It's very black and white. It is happy feelings are good, bad feelings are bad. So you know think whatever you need to get happy feelings. Don't think whatever produces bad feelings. That's that's unrealistic optimism. And that is um these may look the same you know if if an unrealistic optimist was like, well, I'm not worried.
00:36:19
Speaker
about losing my job. And a stoic was like, I'm not worried about losing my job. They might say the same thing in the moment. But somebody came to that conclusion as a skilled you know as a skilled practitioner of life of the craft of life who has understood the nuance of the situation and the reality of the world. And the other person has followed the three bystep and the threestep instructions where it's like, well, if I'm worried about losing my job, I'll feel bad. So I will not do that.
00:36:47
Speaker
um And that's not a complex nuance position that has like this this deep theoretical background that stoicism does. um You can't teach the nuance of soccer in a day or painting or being a good writer or being a good carpenter. You can't teach that in a day. um And then the harmful optimist is is is like that person who's taken one lesson and thinks they thinks they understand how to do something. they they can one ah one one carpentry lesson and they think they can build a house, um they they try to jump straight to the outcome without building the skill or the craft that it takes to get there. They want to be like the stoic, but they haven't put in that work that the stoic does to make sure we can get that outcome in the right way. and there's no There's no easy way around that, right? It just takes work. yeah Yeah. I think that's right. ah Another way to put that is emotions are complex because
00:37:42
Speaker
it's it's exceptionally difficult to come to knowledge. like In a way, the truth is simple. it's something A given proposition is just true or false, but in any given situation, there are yeah thousands of different propositions at play. ah you know you've just There are different ways of cutting out the world, so you could increase that or decrease that number as you choose, but you know the main point is There are so many different things at play. What you decide to judge, assent to is an exceptionally complex matter.
00:38:18
Speaker
um And then, you know, how you form that judgment on each of those propositions is a difficult matter and requires training in and of itself. I think to try and make that more concrete, you know, we've all I think been in discussions with people who are, say, better at arguing or better at debating, but clearly
Debate Tactics and Stoicism
00:38:42
Speaker
wrong. And the kind of mistakes those people might make is maybe focusing on the wrong propositions. you know That's one kind of kind of mistake. And I think it's there's a kind of perhaps maybe defensiveness that you might see people ah take when others around them are expressing negative emotions, a kind of downplaying of that.
00:39:07
Speaker
negativity because they don't want that negativity to enter into their being and that defensiveness just might immediately pick on the thing that's obviously false about what they said and miss some of the deeper truths that might be expressed or what miss what the person is really trying to say.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, I like that idea, the the idea of the, well, it's like sophistry, right? Like the person who's the good arguer, but not, but wrong. You know, it's like the person who's, who's saying the things that they, you know, almost like faking until they make it, they go like, well, I'm, you know, this is fine. This isn't bugging me. I'm happy.
00:39:50
Speaker
Right? And you're you're you're missing the nuance of the situation. You're skipping a step. And so you you look like you have the outcome, but it's not built on the foundation. And to push the carpentry example further, I guess that's the fragility we were talking about earlier. you know your Your house will fall down. It might look the same if it's made poorly, but the skilled carpenter will make one that can stand up to you know an earthquake or whatever you want to call it, and that's that's the fragility you have in those kind of conversations with someone who's unrealistically optimistic, for someone who maybe has a stoic perspective, they're they're secure in their optimism, they're confident in their optimism, where the unrealistic optimistic person or the toxically positive person can be ah fragile because they're not as secure.
00:40:36
Speaker
Yeah. I think the skill metaphor is key. I think if you want to talk, another kind of a example or perhaps is in most skills, I take martial arts. If you're at a low level, there are certain kinds of mistakes your partner might make and you might just punish them for making a dumb mistake and give them a kind of advice. In a way you're sort of responding, you're taking like the bad stoic response and why you do that. They made a dumb mistake. You're saying, do this sort of thing.
00:41:02
Speaker
uh, obviously, whereas someone with more experience like Michael would say, you know, you can actually play with that kind of mistake and suit that to your style or at the very least come up with a better explanation for the person about, you know, why that's a mistake, so what sorts of small tweaks they can take towards fixing it.
00:41:24
Speaker
As soon as you start using martial arts metaphors, I just, it i it clicks for me. It's it's making more sense. So this is the idea, like, you know, you call it, so you're sad, right? This is, and and you're grieving something that shouldn't be, griev you know, somebody else insulted you and it's making you upset.
00:41:39
Speaker
And so the toxically positive person, as the beginner, you know, they pretend like they're good, but they're just like, no, that's wrong. Don't feel that way. That's a bad way to feel. And then the the more, and they're just like, they're just shutting down your, your technique mistake, right? But the more advanced person that the stoic can be like, okay.
00:41:57
Speaker
You know, why are you feeling that way? What is that saying about your values? Okay, you care what other people think. Well, do you care what this person thinks? Or do you care what your friends think? Well, I care what my friends think. Okay, was this person your friend? No. Okay, so maybe you shouldn't care about what they think as much as you care what I think and I don't think.
00:42:13
Speaker
that insult was true. you know You can start working through, you can start playing a bit of technique with them and helping them you know use their work through their own emotions and that's a way that's that's a kind of therapy or advice that's that's still totally true to stoicism. You're not betraying stoicism by doing that. um But you're as you said, you're not shutting down immediately because you're not very skilled so when you see a mistake, you just shut it down.
00:42:40
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. No, I think that's that's right. And I think you the skilled person remembers their role. And yeah, and they think about how can I be excellent in my role in this situation and perhaps less about how can I, you know, immediately stop this person from making a mistake or being obnoxious or what have you.
00:43:06
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Well, that connects with the last difference that I wanted to talk about. Um, and that, uh, you know, talking to friend, they're talking to friend example, and that's the difference is that Stoics, um, do and can sympathize with others in a way that I think unrealistic optimists or at least or certainly toxically positive people would have trouble doing. So this, we we have an episode on this. It's our episode about dealing with non stoic people.
00:43:33
Speaker
and we go in depth there, but basically the the stoic argument, this is one that Epictetus talks about, is that your stoics are totally okay to sympathize, which means meet somebody where they're at, talk to them in a language they understand, but a stoic just needs to be careful about not empathizing. And when I when i say empathy, I just mean letting that person's anger become your anger, let their grief become your grief.
00:43:54
Speaker
So Epictetus's quote from the Incaridion 16, the handbooks, chapter 16, when you see a person weeping in sorrow, either when their child goes abroad or when he is dead.
00:44:06
Speaker
So far as words then, do not be unwilling to show him sympathy, and even if it happens so, to lament with him. But take care that you do not lament internally also." And so he's saying, you can lament with them, you can get so you can get upset with them, show that you see how much they're hurting, but don't also put that inside. um Don't let that um overcome you. And if that seems a bit selfish, like, well, you know I'll help you only insofar as it doesn't hurt me,
00:44:35
Speaker
I'll be a part of your cause only on so far as I don't have to be angry either. it's The stoic argument movie be will be, well, no, sometimes passions aren't good for you. They don't help you make good judgments. So people don't need passionate friends. They need, you know, in the stoic sense of passionate. They don't need people overcome with harmful emotions. They need, ah you know, people of sound judgment. So the the angry person doesn't need an angry friend. They need a calm friend is the stoic argument.
00:45:02
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lecture by a 1950s philosopher named Ludwig Edelstein on Equititas, and he talks about, yeah, a very nice name, classic philosopher name.
Stoic Flexibility and Compassion
00:45:13
Speaker
And then he talks about this this very passage and uses a nice, a really powerful metaphor.
00:45:20
Speaker
that I think it is useful, which is that you need to enter the water to save a drowning person, right? You need to meet them you know where where they are, and that might mean communicating with them in a specific way, or that does mean communicating with them in a way that they're receptive to, that shows that you care about them.
00:45:49
Speaker
and doing this with that while ah to the extent that you can, keeping that stoic distance between. yourself and whatever the the negative feeling or emotion is. But it's also worth remembering that the point is to save the drowning person. right It's not to stop yourself from getting wet. you It's a purpose of that, one of the main upshots of that analogy for me. So perhaps likewise, you could think when you're encountering some
00:46:21
Speaker
person who's suffering from negative emotions, you know, the purpose to the extent that you can is to recognize whatever it is to fulfill your role in that situation and not perhaps not focus as much on Epictetus advice about letting that negative emotion you know infiltrate you, as it were. um I think that that kind of advice can perhaps be mis misunderstood and might be where some of the risk comes in for for Stoics. ah yeah Does that make sense to you? No, I think that's a great metaphor. I'm totally stealing that. I mean, because the metaphor here is just don't drown as well.
00:46:58
Speaker
When you're saving a drowning person, just be careful not to also drown. and that you know yeah i think the I think where the metaphor starts to differ is you getting upset, is you becoming passionate, is that drowning? Or is that just you getting tired swimming in the water? as in is it a Is it a harm that you take on to help somebody?
00:47:19
Speaker
or is it Is it the worst thing? um And I don't know, I don't know which way the Stoics would land on that. um Maybe they say somewhere else, but I think your point is valuable, which is that it's it's okay to take on some risk. It's okay to even be harmed sometimes in the attempt to help another person. um We want to be careful not to lament internally as well, but um you know we're there to help the other person. And so if that means risking a bit of it, ah that's okay too.
00:47:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's a nice extension of the metaphor, the thought that another point is just as you shouldn't mind getting wet, you shouldn't. Of course, all you need to save the person you shouldn't drown. You need a certain level of skill to to do that, to be able to pull it off. um Great. And so those are the differences that I want to talk about. um Anything, any other comments on those differences? So if you're thinking about the
00:48:17
Speaker
takeaways from some of those initial examples.
00:48:22
Speaker
One of the main ones, i wast one of the ways I try boil it down is the stoic is always trying to see what's true. And that involves seeing some of the negative aspects of reality along with the positive, negative aspects of people along with the positive. And it also requires that you focus on playing your role, whatever that means in a given situation, ah that's often going to look like not being the overbearing positive person, not perhaps explaining tragedy in the way you would explain it to yourself, but explaining it to a way that the other person
00:49:11
Speaker
understands, maybe not even explaining it at all, but just being there for the other person and so on. It really comes down to some of these context specific type ah situations where yeah you need to figure out what's that other person like, what's my best action in this situation.
00:49:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's well put, which is to say that you know being a good person and being a good stoic sometimes looks like not just explaining your internal position, but like being sensitive to the situation and saying, what do other people need here? What's my what's my job here? um How can I help the best?
00:49:44
Speaker
Um, and if you start putting your own, you know, if you, if you're a stoic and you start being like, well, no, this is what I think. I think you're being silly. I think you're being dumb because you're not being a stoic. Well, then you could start kind of actually going to, you can go too far, even though you, you're stoic in one sense, but you're missing that important social aspect in another.
00:50:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think there's a kind of flexibility that's required. And I think one of my gripes of the term toxic positivity is that sometimes something that's described as toxic positivity might be good. You might want some, some cultures might just do better with what's otherwise described as toxic positivity and focus on the optimistic optimism. But you also want to recognize, have the flexibility to be in other situations as well.
00:50:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's like coaching an athlete. like you you need to give them You need to give them what they need. And if what they need is you know blind optimism, and and that's if that's genuinely what's most helpful for them in the moment, there there's a kind of flexibility there. um and And that's that nuance of the role. I think that's a good point. Sometimes sometimes actually being You know, everything's going to be okay. Everything's going to work out fine. Sometimes that is what a person needs to hear when you get into the messiness of things. um maybe not and And unrealistic optimism is harmful in its inflexibility as well. um And it's inflexibility positive, so you don't you don't correct with it by being inflexibly negative or even realistic.
00:51:18
Speaker
Right. Right. Awesome. Yeah. So to wrap things up, I mean, I think that was a good description. I i think that, I mean, that, that clarified some things for me, and but I want to close off here with that. There is a genuine risk for Stoics here for people that are trying to be Stoics of falling into whatever harm you want to call it in some aspect, you either being too optimistic or yeah even being toxic towards other people and and not fulfilling your roles.
00:51:41
Speaker
um And coming back to that craft metaphor, you you suffer as a Stoic when you try to skip to the end result. You fall into this pattern when you try to skip to the end result. The Stoics pursue truth, and they have arguments for why only character is good and vice is bad, or good character is good and vice is bad.
00:51:58
Speaker
um and why you shouldn't feel negative emotions, they have complex arguments for these. But this requires you to study, this requires you to internalize things, this requires you to be attentive to the nuances of situations. If you jump straight to the outcome, you try to act like a sage right away, try to force yourself to become a stoic immediately, you risk simplifying things into being black and white, ah just good or bad, and that's not nuanced stoicism, it's not the truth.
00:52:25
Speaker
Right? And it's ah it's a simplified picture of the world and it's harmful. It's like the person who learns the dichotomy of control and then immediately starts telling other people like, oh, just get over it. It's not it's not up to you. um it's you know you're You're onto something there, but you're simplifying things. you know it's It's not that easy to be ah Good stoic and so just be cautious about that recognize that it takes a long time something I work on um I think if I think if you do that you'll get ah around a lot of these problems and Then if you submit, you know, somebody accused of you of these things incorrectly. Well, then you have to put up with it like anything else no Awesome, thanks Michael. Cool. Thanks the other
00:53:10
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become more.
00:53:29
Speaker
Stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyre.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.