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The WebWell Podcast, Episode 12 - "How does UX impact a Brand and build Trust?"
39 Plays1 year ago
Welcome to the WebWell Podcast! In this episode, we have a special guest, Wyatt Gaines, joining us for a deep dive into the powerful relationship between User Experience (UX) and Brand. We'll explore how these two elements should collide to create trust and a lasting impression.
First, we'll introduce Wyatt and learn about his design background and what exciting projects he's currently involved in. Then, we'll share a little about how we know each other, with a nod to our local brewery experiences.
Our topic of the day is how UX significantly shapes a brand's image and fosters trust. To make sure everyone's on the same page, we'll start by defining UX and Brand, and we might throw in some simpler terms to keep things relatable.
Wyatt will share his experiences in using UX to support Brand, complete with some real-life examples. He'll also provide insights into how UX is evolving and what businesses should consider when strengthening the bond between UX and Brand.
As we wrap up, we'll discover what Wyatt is currently working on and what he hopes to tackle in the future. Plus, don't miss his shameless plug, where you can connect with him on Instagram at @wyatt.g.dsgnr and explore his portfolio at www.wyattg.com.
Stay tuned for another engaging episode, and remember, a seamless and thoughtful UX isn't just good design—it's the foundation of trust. This is the WebWell Podcast, and we're thrilled to have you with us.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Web Well Podcast
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to the Web Well podcast brought to you by Cascade Web Development. I'm one of your hosts, Simon, along with Ben, and we can't wait to dive into all things Internet, tech, web development and web design. We'll also be discussing how we balance work and life and exploring the fascinating world of Internet innovation. So whether you're a tech enthusiast,
00:00:29
Speaker
or just looking for some entertainment. Join us on this exciting journey as we explore the ever-changing landscape of the web. Thanks for tuning in. Let's get started.
Meet Wyatt Gaines and Cascade Web Development
00:00:39
Speaker
All right. Welcome, everyone, to the Web Well podcast, episode number 12. We're excited Ben and I are hosting today with our guest and friend Wyatt Gaines. Wyatt, how's it going, man? Well, thanks so much for having me. Welcome, Wyatt. Yeah.
00:00:58
Speaker
I think ultimately let's introduce you, get some background, right? So what's going on? How did we meet? What have you been up to? How'd you get there? I know that's a load of questions, but figure out which one you want to answer first.
00:01:13
Speaker
Yeah, sure. No worries. No worries. Yeah. I was introduced to Cascade Web Development during my time at a local Oregon brewery. We had engaged with them to create a website and it was a pretty awesome partnership. I looked back fondly on that project and just really became rather friendly with this team. So there you have it.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, and if I remember correctly, when we started, that was that predated Simon. So you're working directly with Michael, and then Simon jumped on board and you guys got to do a little more riffing back and forth on design and brand. But yeah, it was a cool engagement that evolved as the team
Creative Process and Challenges
00:01:56
Speaker
members kind of evolved.
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, I look back on actually that specific instance why I don't know if you knew this, but just the brainstorming session that we specifically had for the one need. And I went down this whole rabbit hole in the back of my head. And then finally, it was like, Simon, what do you think? And I just got a chance to spew it out, which is if any creative knows is like,
00:02:18
Speaker
angels are singing, the lights on you. It just, it's so good to just have an idea. It's not necessarily even that it was the one we chose or executed on. It was just that like, dude, I've got this solution. I think this would be sick, you know, and to be able to deliver it and you guys like even you why you're like, yeah, I like that. And then we could do this as a creative, just that spit ball is just like so fun. That's what we wake up for, right?
00:02:44
Speaker
for sure. Yeah, it's at times can be a performance job. Absolutely. 321 perform. Yeah, I mean, what's more on that? You know, it's it's hard being a creative, right? Because you're kind of like, Oh, I need to listen more. I need to recommend more. I got to say no more. I got to say yes more. You know what I mean? It's like, where do you find that balance? So yeah, 100%.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, I know. I think Ben does a pretty good job in just letting me, like, again, we just got off a call about an hour ago, and I don't really give much input the whole time, just because I'm sponge. I'm sponge mode. I'm just listening, absorbing.
Wyatt's Journey to Freelance Design
00:03:24
Speaker
And then if I'm lucky, it's like, all right, Simon, go ahead. What are your thoughts, right? Right at the end, it's like, okay, this is what I was thinking, you know.
00:03:32
Speaker
It's, it's fun that way. So, so leading up to the last job at the brewery, what design specific or, or even correct career background, why, what, what led you to that and what are you doing now? Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah.
00:03:48
Speaker
I'm an Oregonian born and raised in Beaverton, Oregon. I found design at a really young age. You know, I'm talking like founded in high school. We had a graph design class on those multicolored Macintosh computers with the clear plastic, you know, the whole thing. I mean, like pretty much as soon as I sat down in front of Adobe Illustrator, I knew this is what I wanted to do.
00:04:13
Speaker
And I've been with it ever since, right? And so I went to school in Portland. I got my BFA in graphic design. That was all jolly good and whatnot. After that, I ended up in the responsive web design world. So I basically entered the job force at the same time. Responsive web design was really shaking things up, OK?
00:04:35
Speaker
And this is the era where we're like, OK, we've got to teach everybody what a media query is. We got to comp every single page in three different viewports, extensive stuff. And this was a time where we didn't have Sketch. We didn't have Figma, let alone Figma, rather. And so yes, that was really how I started my career. So I'm humming along, and that's going well and all that.
00:05:04
Speaker
I was actually laid off from a web design company right when, I remember like one of the last things I did was like lead a team meeting about like, this is sketch, these are components, this is how we can bring this in, and this is gonna free us from like, you know, hours and hours of redundant Photoshop work and whatnot. And then like a week later, I was let go. So I was like, wow, that was really interesting. So basically, like any Multnomah County resident, I fled to Deschutes County, okay? I fled to
Trends in Craft Brewery and UX
00:05:33
Speaker
the more scenic version,
00:05:34
Speaker
Oregon and I found this really I mean I didn't really move here for career reasons there's more of a lifestyle choice you know and I found this job at a weekly tabloid so this is a free newspaper you go to it for
00:05:50
Speaker
events, music venues, you know, uh, uh, back page ads, things like that. Right. So this was a pretty neat experience cause, um, I got to, you know, I was, I was kind of living my dream of working in print. Right.
00:06:06
Speaker
I was working alongside journalists, learned a lot of transferable skills from journalists, things like how to ask great questions, how to investigate, how to get to that root of a problem, which is a design thinking ethos. This is great. I'm loving this. In the town of Bend, craft beer is arguably our main industry. A job opening popped up in craft beer and I jumped on it.
00:06:36
Speaker
And so I was really excited about this cause it was a way to start with, with consumer packaged goods in the CPG industry.
00:06:45
Speaker
And boy did I ever, this job basically had me in the driver's seat on really complicated print projects. You got multi pieces occurring at once in order to launch a beer. And then on top of it, you're marketing it as well. And so that was great. And obviously, craft beer is really going through a lot right now.
00:07:11
Speaker
uh rather flat so they're trying some new things and I find I found myself you know I find myself uh within a new path and that path is freelance graphic design. Nice so as
The Role of UX in Branding
00:07:25
Speaker
freelancer I don't I don't think it's even in our notes but as a freelance just real quick trends wise what you're seeing even even specific to maybe the brewery craft brewery
00:07:37
Speaker
industries. What do you see just being a big trend on focus? Like where are people putting their money when it comes to design and marketing? Yeah. You know what, what I'm seeing right now. Well, you know, there was, there was some pretty wide sweeping layoffs towards the beginning of the year really affected, you know, media or design related jobs heavily. Okay. And I see like these people.
00:08:03
Speaker
You know, basically they're not really going to go back to the way it was before COVID and such. And, and I see so many people forging off and doing their own thing. Okay. And I see a lot of DTC. I see a lot of self-employed individuals right now.
00:08:21
Speaker
And really I'm just taken with like the DTC movement, you know, these folks, it's like whatever industry they were spun out of via COVID, they're kind of like acquiring something from that industry and packaging it and selling it themselves.
00:08:37
Speaker
Yeah. DTC. What's an acronym down to contract. Thanks. Thanks for DTC is direct to consumer, right? So this is what it comes down to more often. Not as a Shopify store. Okay. I mean, shot, that's a dirty word and e-commerce brand. And, and you know, these, these folks, their goals are just set up on like, I'm going to create a website. It's going to make money in the background. It's going to be my idea. That's going to be my thing.
00:09:07
Speaker
You know, yeah, yeah. Well, I think again, that was my, my attempt at a good segue to today's title for our topic today. Today's topic specifically to brand, but it's how does UX impact brand and even more specifically, how does it build trust?
00:09:30
Speaker
if you want to just start off the gate, what would be a good response for that question? How does UX impact brand and build trust? Yeah, that's great. I mean, I have a metaphor that I like to rely on quite a lot. So kind of if you think about a vehicle, I mean, most people in North America are familiar with driving vehicle, right? So I kind of look at brand as the engine, right? It's this human designed, complex,
00:10:01
Speaker
interwork, interconnected. There's a series of processes. They're all working together. And it does this amazing thing, which is move a vehicle down the road. Meanwhile, you have user experience. And this is basically everything that the user does to your engine and your vehicle, from picking up the keys off of the kitchen counter table to getting in the vehicle, understanding the dashboard.
00:10:26
Speaker
wink, wink, nudge, nudge, operating the vehicle, maintaining the vehicle, uh, you know, even to end of life cycle where, where they're done with this vehicle and they're moving on. If they make that determination. That's, I've never heard that analogy, but I really liked that. And I'm totally going to steal that. I know for, for what we do, we use like building a home, a foundation, right? And it's more probably specific to our process, but I liked that.
00:10:54
Speaker
We always use the word intangible,
Building Brand Credibility through Websites
00:10:55
Speaker
right? So apart from a motor being tangible, I think one of the, one of the things you said there that I liked about brand was it didn't start. You didn't start with saying it's when you put your foot on the gas pedal, right? It wasn't when you opened the door. It was all the way back to grabbing the keys off the counter, right? That is all part of that, that user experience.
00:11:19
Speaker
to said brand or motor. And I think that gets overlooked often, right? Like here's a product, here it is, it's, that's it, right? That's your experience with it. No, it has to do with all those feelings you had to finding your keys, knowing what they look like, the jingle as you pick them up, the buttons as you push them, you know? And I don't want to get into interface when I talk about the buttons, but it is part of that whole experience.
00:11:47
Speaker
So let's define UI or excuse me, not UI. We're not touching UI. Let's define UX and brand. So you, you add a killer analogy for brand UX wise. Uh, some people swap words out pretty synonymously, but a user experience. How would you define that?
00:12:08
Speaker
And I think let's, let's make it easier, easy for you. Let's use it just websites, since that's kind of RMO, right? What would be defined for user experience on a website? Gee whiz. I mean, yeah, where do I begin there? If you're going to have a trusting relationship with the brand, you need to legitimize the brand. Okay. So.
00:12:34
Speaker
You know, as long as we're talking specifically about websites, you know, website is the number one way to legitimize your brand. Say that again, just for all the listeners. One more time. Number one way what? The number one way to legitimize your brand is going to be through a website, you know? So it's like, okay, so social media is everywhere, right? We're constantly using social media. It's like 90% of our time spent interacting with a device.
00:13:04
Speaker
You know, like if you're still in a spot where you're saying like, oh, we don't need a website. We have a Facebook. Like I just, I really don't trust that. Okay. You got to look at cybersecurity. You got to look at what's going on with scammers. People are scammed on a day-to-day basis. Do you think that like a scammer has a legitimate website? Right. No. No.
00:13:29
Speaker
you're saying yes they have a legitimate no they don't I mean they're gonna have some really they're gonna have someone crappy I guess so so actually to that point interesting story last summer
00:13:40
Speaker
I was pool shopping. Okay. Super classy. I just wanted above ground, a big above ground pool. I have a decent amount of property. So I leveled out this cool spot. So I started shopping and we all know the brand in techs, right? Like it is, it's like when you go to Walmart and you buy an inflatable, like an inner tube to go float the river.
00:14:00
Speaker
It's that company, right? So, they build pools and all that. They build the ones that are rebranded. They say Coleman on it, right? I mean, it's one company that's really doing all that work. I found a website that sold the pool. We'll just hypothetically say it was $2,000. Sold it for 500 bucks. I was like...
00:14:20
Speaker
what it's like on sale. And I was like, all right, so here, this is this is web development. This is what I've learned in my tenure. So I stock the website. I'm just I'm peeling through it trying to find misspellings. I'm trying to find broken links. I'm trying to find like the footer information about right. I'm going through it. I'm like, man, this could be legit.
00:14:43
Speaker
And so I add a couple to my cart. I was like, you know, I'm going to buy two of them and I'm going to sell one to pay for mine. Right. That was my mindset. And then before I clicked submit, I realized, okay, I'm just going to double check this. I called my credit card company. They said, Hey, I'm about to make this purchase. Uh, if it's false, like if it's, if it's fake, are you in my cupboard? And they're like, yeah, of course. I was like, done.
00:15:07
Speaker
it's worth the risk for just a split second. So I submitted it and I realized it ended up going to some dude's PayPal account and the email was like whatever his name was at Gmail.
Leveraging UX for Brand Adaptability
00:15:19
Speaker
I was like, yep, that's probably not this company, right? But what I admired, this sounds terrible, I admired that the site looked legit.
00:15:28
Speaker
Like it is a dead copy of what that pool company's website should look like. They just didn't do it, right? So like you said, number one way to legitimize, right? Is that website and people like us that are maybe savvy enough to go find those things, the abouts, go through to look at service, warranty, like is it all there? Is that information there? But it looked just like it. So that's, that is interesting.
00:15:56
Speaker
What was that? I said sucker. That's too bad. He got bit. But yeah, at least you checked all your bases and, and then the pool at the end of the day. No, no pool. Didn't get it. It was all fake. You didn't get that one, but I've seen the pool. Oh yeah. I got a pool. I, yeah, I had to splurge and pay retail. Um, but yeah, I, I ended up getting that all claimed. It was fine. And apparently I was not the only one and I don't want to say sucker, but
00:16:21
Speaker
You know, I, I knew going into, I was like, this isn't true, but screw it. Like I'm, I'm covered. I just want to see, but anyways, what it, so what are some ways why that, uh, that UX could support brand and even more specifically, what are some examples to use maybe on a daily? And I think we even were kind of talking about it before Ben got on, but what are ways that a UX support brand? Gee.
00:16:50
Speaker
I'm blanking guys. Sorry. Is there a question? Is there a question I should be referencing here? Like a number one, two, three, or four. No worries. So it's in the topic. If you're in there, I'm on it. You had highlighted it, but talking about, I think you put brand is, let's see, I get a lot of DT C client. I don't have numbers on this. It's up in the topic still up above. Oh my God. We're not even in the numbers. Jesus. All right. My bad. My bad.
Cultural Connections in Branding
00:17:17
Speaker
You're good. All right. I'm going to re-ask that question.
00:17:20
Speaker
Magic and post-production, if you don't have an answer, I skip it. But I'm just thinking of, yeah, we'll get to there. Okay. Play. So by, I'm gonna start that again too. So Wyatt, what are some ways you've used, that's probably the key part to this question. What are some ways that you have used UX to support a brand? Gosh, I don't know if I have an answer for this. I really don't.
00:17:51
Speaker
It's like, I don't know if I have clients that are that good, you know what I mean? I can't, I haven't really been able to like reach holistically in and like do like full blown like multi-channel experience where it's like, you know, we sell them a product, the box looks really great, we follow up with an email, you know what I mean? And then we like, and then we figure out some sort of ploy for them to tell somebody
00:18:18
Speaker
And then, and then get us a new customer, you know, like in my head, ideally that's how it would go. You're talking about the whole, the whole circle, the whole cycle then is part of what you're referring to when it comes to the UX for a brand to support the brand. It'd be from again, the keys on the counter, the introduction to becoming a lifer, being a loyal, uh, follower, if you will.
00:18:43
Speaker
Right. I mean, like, okay, I guess one thing does come to mind. Uh, I have a client, I have a DTC client, go figure. And basically we're trying to create culture goodies for that, that accompany their product. Okay. And our tactic that we're utilizing for this is a sticker. The reason why we chose a sticker is this is a product that's used by a construction or electrician professionals.
00:19:11
Speaker
And there's a culture of helmet stickers, okay, in regards to this user group. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to basically push brand adaptation through culture, lensing our product. And the tactic again is stickers. Yeah, I like that. And I think that's that shoot stickers are
00:19:34
Speaker
seem to be a pretty universal, depending obviously on the industry. But like, I know why you Mount bike, Ben's big skier, like stickers are an, yeah, an MO for, for a lot of our fellow, if you will, industries. That's clever though, incorporating that into an industry, which I wouldn't have, like, if you said, guess the industry, I wouldn't have pictured that.
00:19:57
Speaker
Sure, sure. I mean, like I learned all kinds of weird stuff by talking to my client, right? We all do. I mean, like, okay, so think about a construction site or a job site, you know, this environment.
00:20:11
Speaker
It's not church. It's not a networking event at a sophisticated bar downtown. These are real people doing challenging physical labor. As such, the humor that they employ really reflects that. Again and again with this client, they're just like, how do we tap that? How do we tap that?
00:20:37
Speaker
you know, these sort of, this is kind of like culture lensing opportunities are what I'm really hopeful for in regards to just kind of bringing back the product to the product's use.
00:20:53
Speaker
i.e. brand to the experience that the brand is providing. Yeah, I think that kind of segues to what I had as the next question, but talking about what some ways the UX is changing and how should businesses consider their own relationship between those two. I think that was a prime example, I think, of it, is an industry or company saying, hey, how do we change our normal MO? How do we change our normal approach to
00:21:21
Speaker
Promoting this topic or this brand or this product and how do we tap into that that vein? If you will a commonality within the the user ship, right? Well, and I think too if you think about even like so with a lot of these companies now They're doing a better job of saying hey, we're not going to show up like Punky Brewster and everyone's looking different
00:21:40
Speaker
You know, we're going to have the same shirt, same pants, same, you know, safety vest helmets. But the helmet is one of those rare places where they can sort of express themselves. Right. And so you see that in sport, whether it's maybe they got, you know, they're doing some sock or shoe doping with their special shoes and socks or tattoos, obviously. And then on the work side, I think that is one of those areas where if they're given a little bit of license, yeah, this is an area where they can express themselves. So you can tap into that prime real estate and have them desire to associate your brand with
00:22:10
Speaker
that small little bit of individuality that's a that's prime real estate seems like a real smart move. Yeah that's great i mean just just please brands for the love of all that is you know just be more human right. Social media introduced the viral thing to us the viral topic to us.
00:22:32
Speaker
Viral topics are human topics. These are emotional connections or reactions that folks have to this. And they work. They take off. They get shared. Harness that for your brand. Get
Enhancing Branding with UX Strategies
00:22:45
Speaker
more sales like that, right? I love it. It's great. And it's just like part of a bigger shift too, right?
00:22:53
Speaker
As a culture in the marketing industry, we're really focused on performance marketing. This is data data all the time, sponsored posts all the time, market data all the time. You can introduce something hilarious or something heartwarming or something with actual real human culture behind it. And all of a sudden, you're blowing through your demographic. You're reaching new demographics across the whole spectrum. And so it's a great time.
00:23:24
Speaker
Are you familiar based on just exactly your answer right there? Are you familiar with jobs to be done theory? I'm not, no. It is data, right? But it is data that identifies and tracks the feeling, the why, the internal need, right? It's an interesting approach to gathering that data, gathering that information.
00:23:51
Speaker
to really find out why a consumer does a thing, does a purchase, signs up for whatever.
00:23:58
Speaker
because it rewinds all the way back to the original emotion. It's pretty interesting, but it helps formulate some of what you're talking about because you can then take, this is my market, identify that and name it as a persona, if you will. But then you can actually see these other outliers that you maybe couldn't have seen, if you will, because you were so focused on this. You're like, whoa, I could actually, with all of this, gain and build on that persona, that demographic.
00:24:27
Speaker
Uh, it's pretty cool. Yeah. I love that. Thanks for the recommendation. Yeah. So user experience. Uh, when I put these notes together, um, listeners, uh, you've heard me reference notes, uh, with some of our guests before. So obviously we have to do some homework in this podcast. We can't just sit down and talk.
00:24:48
Speaker
naturally or organically. So we have to build on it. So what I did is put together kind of an outline. I call it additional notes and whatnot. So I wanted to define kind of the elements that build up some of that UX for brand. And I used AI to help me do it, admittedly. I admitted it to Wyatt and Ben. But basically we kind of boiled it down. And I say we, like it was another person. It was just chat GPT.
00:25:17
Speaker
We boiled it down to kind of this list and I wanted to kind of methodically just kind of go down that list with Wyatt and get his take at your take. I was referencing the listeners just then. So talking about user experience significantly shaping brands, image, and trust, right? Cause again, the key part in here is building that trust. Number one, consistency in design.
00:25:47
Speaker
You want to talk about that a little bit? Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah, you have to. You must be consistent in order to present, you know, a professional and reliable brand. The biggest brands in the world are extremely good at this. Okay. And folks, guess what folks do? They interact with these extremely large mega corpse, uh, way more often than you. Okay. So they're used to really good brand marketers. Okay. You need, you like, you
00:26:17
Speaker
Essentially, you have to acquiesce that if you're even going to be a blip on these folks' radar. Yeah, I just realized too, as you said, that we, the little guys, are definitely competing for that little sliver of attention. Right. And what I thought you were about to say, which I just kind of feel like is my own projection of this, is
00:26:41
Speaker
You may be interacting, I'm just going to choose Nike since it's a Portland kind of thing. You may interact with that company and there's just this mega organization, but that interaction somehow, if they do their job right, which they do pretty well, feels personal, right? There's that personal connection, like I identify with that. Ben and I talk about that connection like all the time.
00:27:05
Speaker
outdoor industry appeals to it, the brewery industry appeals to it where it's just like, that's me, or that's who I want to be, or that's what I want people to think of me. But talking about consistency, and I listed out design elements, right? If you start to go off on a tangent with your designs that just doesn't feel consistent with the brand, it's going to alienate people. They're just not going to feel like, whoa, where's this guy going? And they're not thinking, where's this guy going?
00:27:34
Speaker
What is Nike? What is the brand doing here? Fonts, colors, visual styles, all of that kind of helps bring together that cohesiveness, right? Sure. Sure. Yeah. On the one hand, you're like, Oh, they're speaking directly to me without speaking directly to me. They're actually speaking to everybody that they can, you know, provide, you know, create revenue with.
00:27:56
Speaker
However, yeah, if you're gonna go on a tangent and break consistency, you're no longer speaking with them, okay? You are just confusing them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so number two, user-centered design. So this
Client Feedback and Design Cohesion
00:28:12
Speaker
kind of goes back to understanding client, understanding their need or audience, understanding their preferences, again, colors,
00:28:24
Speaker
photos, the photos you choose to put on this design. This one specifically, let's go back to that little project that you and I cascade and Wyatt helped put together. The concept was that we had to figure out where this user was actually engaging with this label. So it was a design and you could speak to it, Wyatt.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, actually, why don't you describe kind of that and then we'll talk about how we kind of came up with where the user physically would be at when he engaged or she. Yeah, no worries. No worries. Yeah. So we worked on a retail activation together. Okay. This is a QR code activated event, marketing event that would occur to our customers.
00:29:13
Speaker
And it happened to them in the marketplace. So basically what we did is we repackaged that context to the user. And I feel this is really powerful because we were able to cut through and say, look, we know you're facing a decision right now, which is you're trying to figure out your product in a really crowded environment. And by us extending a hand and just being there,
00:29:43
Speaker
in that time of maybe like choice paralysis. Yeah. That we all suffer when we go to the grocery stores, a busy place, right? Right. We're going to assist you with that. So that was really the beauty of that engagement, in my opinion.
00:29:58
Speaker
Yeah, and it doesn't even have to be a busy place, but I find myself doing this way too often. This sounds terrible. Sounds like I'm an alcoholic, but I basically just stand there and I'm like, which one do I want today, right? Let's be honest, there are some staples that you just always, I'll grab those, but there are new flavors, there's new brands, there's new seasonals. They make it, those industries make it pretty tough.
00:30:25
Speaker
right? To just like, go in, grab that one in like, Whoa, what did I just see? And then you're reading it, you're learning about it, right? And so it's not only tough on it's not only tough on themselves, but tough on the consumer. I think you're speaking to the consumer, but for them, right? And I've got I've got some friends in that realm as well. And they're like, how far off the reservation do you go with this stuff? You know, they've got all this breadth and
00:30:48
Speaker
It's, yeah, it's a confusing marketplace and determining how, you know, how creative you want to get versus, you know, stay into your, your core is, it's a fascinating thing to observe. Yeah. Sure. I mean, that also really speaks to me about like consistency as well. Right. So innovation is great. Right.
00:31:10
Speaker
man, you can really fat, you can found your brand on innovation. You can found your brand on tradition and heritage. At some point you, you know what I mean? You have to really commit to either of those paths. Totally.
00:31:23
Speaker
All right. So number three, clear communication. So I wrote a effective graphic design and UX ensures information is presented clearly and intuitively when users can find or excuse me, when users can easily find what they're looking for and understand the content, it reduces frustration. What we're just talking about and increases trust in that brand's competence. So that's a hundred percent what we were just, what you guys just said.
00:31:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, when I read this prompt, it also really reminded me of the importance of testing, okay? You know, so like a UX principle is test early, test often. So I love that, you know, for just reminding ourselves of what's really real here, okay? And that is gonna be your user. And how do you, what are some of the ways in which you test that, Wyatt?
00:32:17
Speaker
Yeah, I don't. I mean, I don't right now, you know. Yeah, I mean, a better question is where do you find the budget for that? Gee whiz, you know, at this point, I'm basically like one half psychoanalyst, one half creative thinker. Okay, and and I do my best based on my experience.
00:32:35
Speaker
to intuitively guess at again and again. And there's no follow-up testing, let's face it. Yeah. I mean, we can relate to that as well. We do the best we can. And that's where every time I hop on a prospective sales call, it's like, we're all going to do the best we can in the room. You're probably going to want to put your resources towards building the best thing possible. But are you really going to talk to six people?
00:33:00
Speaker
you know, bank your this brand initiative on six people whose opinions are, how valuable are they? But I
Accessibility and Performance in Web Design
00:33:08
Speaker
think the benefit of doing, you know, digital deliverables like ours is then we can do some, you know, do some metrics on the backside and say, how's that working? And where do we want to tweak that moving forward? But yeah, I find the same challenge when I'm talking to, you know, our clients is like, we'd love to test this. But how much value do we get out of that? So that that was, I guess, similar to our experience.
00:33:30
Speaker
Well, it kind of also goes back, Ben, we've talked about like just getting it, getting a project to stand on its own and then figure it out. Like, don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting putting out a crappy product, a crappy website, crappy marketing, right? But to some extent, like let it stand.
00:33:47
Speaker
And then figure it out too, you know, there's a certain layer of that, you know, in granted, granted budgets aside, if you had the biggest budget, why testing all the time, right? Of course, testing after you launch it, testing after it's delivered and executed, of course. Right. Long-term. Yeah. So next, next one, uh, brand personality. So graphic design choices can convey the brand's personality and value.
00:34:15
Speaker
I was kind of curious on this, Wyatt. Throughout your career, choosing a brand, one of, I think, a gift.
00:34:24
Speaker
success, there we go, a gift that successful graphic designers and marketers have. And I'm, I'm grouping in marketer because you kind of said it, that you kind of have to have different hats. You playing different roles as a freelancer, right? Um, I do it. I feel like all the time where I'm getting to know a new brand we're bringing, we're brought on board and I have like crash course and have to embody, have to personalize that brand. How do you do that? What are, what are maybe some steps that you do that?
00:34:53
Speaker
to become familiar with the brand? Yeah. Basically, grill whoever is the brand manager. If they don't have a designated brand manager, this is going to be your founders. Maybe they're still at that level. Man, so many people that work on the brand
00:35:15
Speaker
really are brand managers. Okay. So we're going to grill those people. I have a couple of different exercises. Okay. So sometimes I'll say like, uh, give me three adjectives that describe your brand. Okay. So I'll start there. Okay. And then from there, what I'll do is I'll extrapolate maybe like seven more adjectives. I'll figure out the opposite of the adjective. I'll put it on a sliding scale and we'll sit there and we'll sliding scale this thing. Okay.
00:35:44
Speaker
I've done that a couple of times. What we found is really it is just the original three adjectives. Okay. And then we go back to that and we say, okay, like,
00:35:53
Speaker
In regards to design motifs, I think I know how to accomplish these. Is there a way I can maybe subvert the typical design motifs that we associate with set adjectives while still supplying that attribute? Can we do that and really create something different and interesting and unique? Is the client going to be comfortable with that? More often than not, your client is not comfortable with that. A dream client is. And this is what we're searching for.
00:36:23
Speaker
That's cool, I've done that exercise a few times and it seems tedious and I've been in the other shoe, I've been in the client shoe where I had someone, an agency come in and do those exercises
Ensuring Mobile Responsiveness
00:36:39
Speaker
and you're like, what the crap is this for? Like I don't get it. And then later on, it's kind of this big reveal of because we decided these things, it's informing all of this.
00:36:49
Speaker
Now we understand this personality. Now we have this intangible. We can, we can live through this now. Uh, it's a pretty interesting experiment. Number five, visual hierarchy. Maybe you can speak to that real quick, uh, as well. And we'll cruise through the rest of these.
00:37:07
Speaker
Yeah, man, I mean, so this is really like foundational graphic design to me is figuring out, you know, the order in which folks need to process information. What's going to be most important to the success of the project? Excuse me, a little whistle going on.
00:37:29
Speaker
You know, more often than not that's conversion, right? Okay. So you can't, obviously you can't lead with conversion. Okay. So do a little bit of the work, gain their trust and then convert. That's a fine hierarchy technique. I love that.
00:37:45
Speaker
Again, I'm a traditionalist. When you talk about hierarchy, that is maybe like day one in a traditional graphic design education. I love that for websites especially. A technique that I rely on is there's a CTA at the top, there's a CTA at the bottom. This one's pretty simple. Don't make people scroll all the way back to the top.
00:38:16
Speaker
Yeah. You, I think hit it right on the nail. I use that word pretty often. I find at the beginning of any kind of engagement with a client when they're, we're talking about brand and establishing these rules, right? Is like, do you understand what the word hierarchy means? One, two, do you understand it's, it's affected visually, right? Like size.
00:38:38
Speaker
colors, weight, all of those things can produce that hierarchy of what should come first. And they're often like, well, is it right here at the top? I said it may be, but it's what your eye is being drawn to first. You know, it's that attention and then it funnels in.
00:38:55
Speaker
It's, it is design 101, right? Uh, and even let's rewind pre-web, it was, it was print, right? It was the Z. Remember the Z on the page where it was like left to right down. Like you could, you visually did it with photos, right? Yep.
00:39:12
Speaker
Early on, so like you, my mom taught photography and did your book in my high school. And so of course, what did I do? I took photography as like a freshman and then became TA because I thought it would be a breeze, which was not at all the case because my mom would make me go in on Saturdays to help layout. And so.
00:39:31
Speaker
We had little Nikon, little scanners, so I'm scanning film, putting it in, and I had to figure out hierarchy, right? I'm doing layout on print pages to get attention. You couldn't... Yeah, so that's always been one. It is 101. It is basic, but it is something that comes into play on a daily for design.
00:39:54
Speaker
This
Wyatt's Current Focus and Conclusion
00:39:55
Speaker
reminds me of another experience I have. So you're educating your client, right? I think that's kind of what we're talking about. Another idea we're talking about. Educating your client, what is hierarchy? Oftentimes, I'll come into a situation occurring with a client or prospective client, and there's no hierarchy, right? So I'm able to explain this by saying, when everything is bold, nothing is bold.
00:40:20
Speaker
Okay, so everybody look out for that one, because you'll find that more often than not, if they're not working with a professional, they're going to head down this route. Yep. Yeah, I just want it bigger, bigger, always bigger. That actually takes me back to the way back days of the early 2000s and the late 90s, where we used to allow for font and color administrative controls with our content management system.
00:40:47
Speaker
And we always joke about like, keep Vegas out of your website. Cause it's pink, it's yellow, it's green, it's blinking. And it's like, just cause you can, does not mean you should. So to this day, unless they really press for it, some of those things are locked down. It's like, we just need some consistency for you. There's plenty of places where you can push the envelope, but some of those core elements, that's not the way to do it.
00:41:09
Speaker
Nice. I'm going to add that one. Keep Vegas out of the website. That one's right behind. If everything bold is, nothing is bold. That's right. I'm going to put that in the show outline in the description. See why it's notes. Of course, of course some clients will be like, but I love Vegas, right? Yeah, exactly.
00:41:32
Speaker
All right, next one. So one of the services, I'm trying to think if we work together on any of it, but one of the services that we're starting to offer and finding really good success and value for our clients is audits. So we'll go through a website and provide kind of this, we hope that it's neutral information about said website in different categories. One of those categories is accessibility. So accessibility being,
00:42:02
Speaker
readability, right? So contrast and colors. Is it easy for someone with motor skills to be able to click on or touch or navigate through? What if they can't see? What if they're blind? Like are they're going to use a screen reader is, is it going to be read both accurately and in order appropriately to what they're used to or need?
00:42:23
Speaker
So speak a little to maybe some of your experience or at least what you can think of when it comes to design to address needs for accessibility. Yeah. I mean, the, the accessibility is a great thing. Okay. It's so wonderful. So again, these are, these are all just touching on fundamental design theory. Okay. You need enough contrast for so-and-so to be legible.
00:42:52
Speaker
you need a clear presentation of your data to all folks. I really enjoy it personally. Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't even realize it. They're like, I want this giant image here. So again, specific to websites, but shoot, it's print too. I want this beautiful image right there. And then I want this catchy phrase right over it.
00:43:17
Speaker
And you're like, but it's such a light image and you want white font, white text over it. Like no one can read that. I can't read it. Right. So thankfully there's a ton of tools, free tools for, for listeners out there. There's free tools that you can go scan it and help determine if you have issues or you can just hire us and bring us to do it correctly. But
00:43:39
Speaker
fundamental design. I feel like a lot of what we talk about with UX is just elementary design, if you will. It's what we were taught or should have been taught day one or two, right? When it comes to being able to read stuff. That's awesome. Yeah.
00:43:56
Speaker
Well, if I could jump in on that, just to celebrate that perspective that you're both bringing, because I think about things like dietary challenges, accessibility. There's lots of things in our world today that we weren't necessarily expected to be considered around for some of these...
00:44:15
Speaker
these minority groups in our population. And I think about some folks like, oh, you have dietary restrictions. I'm not here to play with that. Where others are like, no, I got you. Let's do this. This is going to be great. What a great challenge. And so just celebrating that openness and that desire to really make it work for the audience versus making your jobs easier as designers is
00:44:38
Speaker
is something that, frankly, I feel like we don't see enough. So I think just keeping that curiosity and that desire to embrace those unique challenges versus, again, just trying to keep your world small and your filter set of considerations small in the world we're living in, that doesn't play very well these days. Yeah. It's like, imagine how much better your life would be if a designer had just pointed out that the food you've been eating for 20 years is giving you really bad inflammation, okay?
00:45:09
Speaker
It's like, and you know, all these things are like so much easier said than done. Cause of course, of course, when you think about a compelling visual on a website, you think about a great image with text on top. Okay. Easier said than done. It's really, that can go South quickly. Okay. Please hire a professional. Two things there. One kudos for mixing metaphors there. Why it between a creative design and dietician, uh, needs there. That was good.
00:45:40
Speaker
But also, I think moral of the story, like you just said, Wyatt, is hire professional. Like, this is what we were taught from day one, you know? Like, this is what we have eyeballs for.
00:45:52
Speaker
to help identify and shoot as Ben will attest with some client testimonials, potentially save you some major lawsuits. I mean, that's a reality. And I think the idea of hiring a professional is like we are all stuck in our areas of focus. And if you're not thinking more broadly in how the world is changing around you, but just this is what I know and I'm gonna stick to that. Yeah, you're gonna expose yourself to some liability in sort of a financial worst case, but you also might just turn away your core audience
00:46:22
Speaker
and completely destroy your brand without even knowing it. So a lot of benefit in continuing to think about what are these various filters we've got to run this through today that maybe we weren't considered of as much 5, 10, 20 years ago. Yeah. All right. So next one on the list is performance and load speed. So again, topic, how does UI or excuse me, how does UX, I keep saying that, how does UX help build trust for a brand?
00:46:52
Speaker
This one hits home to me because I'm out in the booney. Well, I say boonies. I'm out in the woods. My internet, it slags. It gets a little slower every once in a while, so I have to boost it. But load speeds are a big one because our attention span, especially now, especially youngins, is this long. Like we are done. If a page is not loading, I'm out, right? What's the point? So load speeds. The one tool
00:47:18
Speaker
We just implemented it again. This is not to try to boast or anything. This is us just continually evolving.
00:47:25
Speaker
is adding in tools that help take photos and make them smaller. Because as a designer, I want that photo to be huge. I want it to look beautiful, right? The issue is most people are looking on this, not this big screen that's over to my right. So does it need to be that big? So talk about that and maybe some of the efforts that you, Wyatt, make in just helping be more efficient so that pages load faster. Yeah, great. Yeah, I'm happy to.
00:47:55
Speaker
I've ran into this problem a lot. I mean, the first blocker to seeing a website is seeing a website. So you're not seeing a website if the images aren't loading. So this is literally table stakes, a mandatory requirement in order to capturing literally anybody. So I love that.
00:48:22
Speaker
You really have to focus on what's going to be critical to communication. Oftentimes, this is not the beautiful 4K image.
00:48:32
Speaker
Okay. So just, just step back from that. So yeah, like if we want to talk about specifics, 960 pixels wide. So this has been a dimension that's been thrown around for a very, very long time. And I still use it today. Okay. You think about like a laptop, like a 13 inch Mac book or 13 inch, whatever, uh, HP, right?
00:48:55
Speaker
You're maybe at 1440 if the browser is completely open. You got a wrapper on that. Maybe there's another wrapper on that. At this point, you're in the 1280, 960 range. 960 on the safe side because it's smaller and it's going to provide less strain on your connection.
00:49:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I'd almost, I'd almost trade off that quality, especially when we're talking about image, we're talking about video that they're sitting there and watching, right. And consuming. We're talking about an image that's, that's a quick glance to help display brand, to help communicate that message for whatever that content is. If it needs to be, if, if your website is, is like a photography portfolio, fine. One image, huge. That's fine. I guess, you know,
00:49:49
Speaker
Yeah, so that's an interesting one. The next one is feedback and error handling.
00:49:56
Speaker
enough with the self-promotion, but I wrote a blog specific to this, why I think you would contest to one of the issues, one of the tools or mechanisms that we as designers have to create what I call guardrails. And that's literally, it's called feedback guardrails or whatever. I think it was the blog post title, but it's those rules of engagement, if you will, for feedback, error handling,
00:50:23
Speaker
Um, it's getting that, that feedback from the client, from the audience, from whoever it is, is providing that and understanding how that builds that trust. Right. So with clients is tell me what you think. I'm a designer, unlike maybe some other people you've worked with. You won't hurt my feelings. Like I'm good. Let's talk this through. I want to know what you saw. Right. How, how are some ways that you've handled that in the past?
00:50:50
Speaker
Jeez, yeah. As far as, you know.
00:50:54
Speaker
gathering user feedback. I don't know if I've ever really gone too near that. I think what really connects with me is not actually it as a feedback gathering tool, but more as a feedback mechanism. So I think one thing that I see a lot as I'm using websites these days is you'll perform a certain function or action, such as I've completed so-and-so tasks.
00:51:24
Speaker
Basically from there, you're taken to a screen and there's nothing on it except for two things. And those two things are going to be a cute graphic in a branded style. And then maybe two lines of copy that explained that, you know, they've received your feedback, which is you've completed a task. Okay. A way you could expound on this is like, what are the next steps? Okay. Uh, provide them with, provide them with the path away from this towards more usefulness, towards more fulfillment out of your experience.
00:51:54
Speaker
That's really good. I wasn't even thinking of that path, but that's totally true where you need that validation and confirmation that I was heard, right? That the user was heard and listened to. I think that's great. And again, going back to the topic UX building trust for brand, you know, like that is a hundred percent that.
00:52:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting too. I feel like sometimes when we throw out requests for feedback that I think what I heard from Simon was trying to like narrow down the kind of feedback we get because sometimes you'll have folks that like come in late stage and it's like, oh, okay.
00:52:34
Speaker
I'm gonna run roughshod on this thing. I don't like this, I don't like that from a UX, like an actual user experience perspective versus how the brand's being portrayed. And so sometimes we find we have to say, okay, now let's refer back to what we agreed to in terms of some of the brands, you know,
00:52:52
Speaker
style guide core elements, here's how these are reflected here. How do we like that to try and like reinforce, I heard you and this is how I'm translating that. And then certainly on on certain elements in terms of function, where let's say certain members of the team made a decision, we all agreed to it. And then a new member comes in, it's like, Oh, I'm supposed to provide value here, I've got to give them feedback, or I'm not I'm not doing my job. And so I think sometimes we've had some challenges.
00:53:18
Speaker
again, just like really focusing their feedback so that where we are going, you know, incrementally more specific towards that point we're all trying to reach versus, you know, getting sidetracked or sidetracked on certain topics. We're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, rain that back in. So I don't know if you have any thoughts there where you feel like folks aren't necessarily honoring the work that's building toward this design piece or, you know,
00:53:45
Speaker
element that you've created, but that's one thing that I'm always looking for creative ideas to shepherd them in the right direction. Not hear what we wanna say, but have everyone honor the work that led up to that point. Yeah, Gee, I've discussed this with like other folks in your shoes, Ben, you know, they're like a service agency owner. And basically one ethos I've heard is just, you know, give folks very specific things to actually comment on.
00:54:14
Speaker
Okay. And it's, you know, you're creating an environment where it's like, we're just discussing three things here. It's like, you're almost only permitted to speak on three things right now, which is difficult to do. It's extremely challenging to create the environment to anybody successful with that.
00:54:34
Speaker
Yeah, you want it to be flexible and ultimately get what we're trying to get. And it's not always completely linear. But on the other hand, it's like, we had that conversation three weeks ago. We had this conversation. We were moving into this phase. Now we're going back. We want to go back. And that can be tricky. But no, I appreciate hearing that. I think that's right, is really focusing the specific feedback you're seeking instead of allowing them to just drop all of their emotional baggage on you at that moment.
00:55:02
Speaker
which can be uncomfortable. So like my hat off to you for like facing that day in and day out. Cause yeah, that's, that's, that's a tough one. You know, there's the work itself and then there's all the work that actually alludes to the work. Right. And I think that's what we're talking about here. So I love that. I like, I'm actually drawn a parallel, Ben, between what, what we were originally kind of thinking with guardrails and then even what, why it brought up as, as almost like the user or the front end, the end, uh, the end user.
00:55:31
Speaker
is that little bit of feedback that you said there, Wyatt, where it's like you get that screen and nothing's on it except some branded little cute image and a thank you, we received it. That to me is kind of that confirmation of the guardrails. Like I, end user, submitted something to you. I fulfilled my obligation. Now in turn, your obligation is to confirm that you heard me, right?
00:55:56
Speaker
That's, that's kind of that like end user version of that very simplified, obviously, but, but that's interesting. All right. So the last one on today's list, believe it or not, I was not going to include because when I say it, it's kind of just stupid that we have to say it. Mobile responsiveness, like.
00:56:17
Speaker
Again, Wyatt, this is specific to websites, but like this is just the norm. And yet even today we're still having this conversation with clients of, okay, mobile responsiveness. How many clients do you have? How many, how many people visit your website and they're on a mobile device or what is that priority? What's the task? What are they trying to do? And just point blank, like it just should just be the norm is mobile responsiveness, right? What's your experience on that one?
00:56:48
Speaker
Yeah, man, this requires so much self-awareness, okay? And this is challenging. Obviously, anybody knows that being self-aware is challenging, right? I mean, if I look at it from my perspective, which you kind of have to do, you have to get outside your own head in order to become self-aware. I'm sitting here, I'm on my workstation. Guess what my workstation is? It's a desktop experience, okay?
00:57:13
Speaker
I'm on a path to completing a job. I have to be able to basically pry myself away from that and, and really just grill this thing on a mobile device before I can put that forward. Okay. And you know, you got to look for this quality in your service provider. Maybe we have listeners out there on the client side there that are, uh, uh, hearing this right now. You know, you really have to be aware of how self-aware your service provider is in this way.
00:57:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's in, I know specifically it's in our contracting, it's in a lot of our description of services and stuff, but, but again, it is, it is that conversation that we continue to have is, is, okay, now what's it look like on mobile? And in our developers, we're fortunate.
00:57:58
Speaker
That's like the first thing they ask. And me as a designer, of course, I'm designing it in this beautiful situation where it's like, everyone's on a desktop, this huge screen. And then Michael's like, uh, what's it look like on, on mobile? And I was like, Oh crap. I have to go back and change it all. Right. And then
00:58:15
Speaker
Oh, go ahead. And then that whole experience is even different, right? Because I love hovers. I love those interactivities, those, those whiz banks, right? Of extra little fun things. You know, that term is, uh, I want some of that fun. And on mobile, you don't get that. And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's, it's degraded. It's, it's down lower. It's just a different experience.
00:58:40
Speaker
Yeah, and it seems like, you know, I've been doing this since 1998. And you'd see folks that came understandably from a print perspective. It's on lock, oftentimes is big and wide, making cram a bunch of stuff in there. Then you then you get to a digital environment. It's like, hey, inherently, this is anything from a smaller screen to a much larger screen.
00:58:59
Speaker
What are we doing there to respond prior to smartphones and then we fast-forward to the what late aughts early teens and then like mobile first design But but do we do that? So I I find that we communicate with our clients first. We're gonna do the home page in desktop
00:59:19
Speaker
That's what I want your feedback on. Now, let's talk about how we take that top grade design experience, user experience, and cram that down into smartphone environment, which I think worked quite well for us. But yeah, I don't know that we fully adopted mobile first, even though in a lot of cases our clients are, majority of their clients are there. But still, you have all this space to work with. The designers in you and within organizations are like, let's make something rad.
00:59:49
Speaker
It's so mobile first, so I've done that before, right? I created a website mobile first. It still looked like a mobile website on desktop. It did not work out for me. I can say that with authority. That website does not exist anymore. The client moved their product to a different marketplace. They abandoned that design.
01:00:10
Speaker
And so that was, you know, things like that happened, right? And you got to learn from them. So, you know, it's crazy. It is a bit of a hybrid approach, right? You make a lot of caveat for your desktop experience in regards to your mobile experience. You really do. You really do.
01:00:31
Speaker
I was actually just gonna ask you why it like, it'd be just fun to have a little contest of like, okay, design it on mobile, design it for mobile, and then reverse that whole normal engagement of let's approve this. And then, okay, now I'm gonna see what I can do on desktop using this. And you just actually, I don't want, you discouraged me from that contest. I don't think I wanna have it now. But like, that does not sound like fun, actually.
01:00:59
Speaker
Well, if you know that, if you know that that's a pitfall, potentially you'd be able to avoid it. However, that's my number one qualm with mobile first and such. So me, I've adopted a hard grilling. I just grill that mobile. I am rather focused on desktop, but I am going to grill mobile.
01:01:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good one. I think you and I shared it back and forth. I use Adobe, so it's XD, so making those versions, testing it over and over, and then obviously when it's deployed and when it's live, and then making sure we're opening it up. I think some of the beauty in having a little team
01:01:42
Speaker
Uh, I don't know what iPhone you have. I assume it's an iPhone, but whatever phone you have, why, if you need me to test it, I have a little iPhone 13 happy to send it over to me. But the beauty in our developers, I think Michael still is not on an iPhone. So it's like, just send it to Michael having, he's the outlier, right? Um, non iPhone, right? So, but yeah, cause that, it makes a difference, you know? Yeah. Why, man, that was an hour. We killed it.
01:02:10
Speaker
I just wanna thank you for joining. We have three closing questions, not really questions. So it's on the top of the notes that we were talking about. What is something you're currently working on you're allowed to share?
01:02:24
Speaker
Yeah, gee, so I mean like we're talking, the freelance world is insane, right? So you could be working on something that takes three months and then meanwhile you'll get like a week-long project and like a few of those within that. I'm literally, I'm wrapping up a week-long project right now that is literally, so this is editorial content because I got a little bit of that in my experience. And these are blog posts about AI generated by AI.
01:02:51
Speaker
Okay, so I'm there. I'm living it right now. I'm living the future of touch up to AI work and it's happening. And you know, I'm allowing it right now because it's contextually, it's a great fit.
01:03:07
Speaker
Will I continue to allow for it in the future? That remains to be seen, but it's occurring. I've actually been in a spot where I've been relying on AI for foundational work in other projects that aren't even AI related. That's what I'm working on right now. I'm working on mentally coming to terms with that as well as literally employing it. Wow. That's good. I like that.
01:03:33
Speaker
the meta in that of using AI to write AI. I like that, that's fun. I don't know how much AI the blog author wrote, just to make that clear, or utilize rather. Nice. Yeah. So you mentioned editorial. What is something that you hope to work on more? Again, dream budget, dream client. What does that picture look like for you?
01:04:03
Speaker
Jeez, yeah, I was talking about it in the beginning of our conversation, but I'm really enjoying working with other enterprising individuals that have done the corporate thing and are doing something on their own.
01:04:19
Speaker
I think the DTC revolution is actually really exciting. I'd love to see more of that. Not to mention I'm getting faster at that one and I would just love to continue and grow in providing these DTC experiences. I'm going to say DTC one more time. Another great opportunity for user experience. I've had the opportunity to work on some really detailed
01:04:47
Speaker
mailing boxes. And this is that one where the flaps kind of slip into these little pockets on the side. And these are so cool because you can make the box and experience. You're working with all of these different panels, obviously. You're working with the physical act of opening it, seeing the inside. Perhaps we're wrapping up some culture elements that come along with said goods.
01:05:15
Speaker
So that's what I'm really enjoying right now and hoping to do more of. Yeah, package design is kind of, yeah, that's the unicorn for designers is I would love just experience on that, you know, of the texture. When you meet another designer that hands you maybe like their resume or their portfolio or whatever, and you start to both nerd out on how it feels, then you know, like, yep, all right, I like that, that's good, you know.
01:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, and I really enjoyed checking out your leave behinds too, Wyatt, that you're promoting on LinkedIn and other places. I imagine that's just such a fun pattern interrupt for people like, who's this guy? And wow, that's pretty cool. And the tactile feel of it, especially if you're so used to
01:06:00
Speaker
You know, a lot of these companies, they're just marketing companies. They're just propping up the DTC website. And then they're, you know, having stuff direct shipped and they might not even be touching it or experiencing the products that people are so excited about. So to, you know, to have some of these more tactile leave behinds and enforce people to think outside of the digital realm, you know, hopefully that's working well for you. But I always respected that investment in creatives, you know, trying to chase down work.
01:06:26
Speaker
For sure, yeah, thanks so much. Yeah, if listeners want to see what Ben's talking about, pop open LinkedIn, plunk my name in there. Wyatt Gains, W-Y-A-T-T-G-A-I-N-E-S. You can see what Ben's talking about and more. Of course, you can find all of my work at www.yatg.com. And finally, I'm on Instagram, believe it or not. So my handle on Instagram is yatg-designer.
01:06:55
Speaker
And that's D-S-G-N-R. I cleverly removed all the vowels for that. And yeah, you can enjoy all the kitsch that I share. You can stay up to date with new projects there. So thanks so much, guys. I really appreciate you having me. It's a pretty delightful conversation. Great to talk with other creative folks.
01:07:17
Speaker
Yeah, I just really enjoyed learning from both of you. Really fun to catch up with. All the best. All right, I appreciate it. Thanks for your time, bud. We'll be in touch.