Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The WebWell Podcast E17 - The Journey of an Entrepreneurial Attorney, Bill Pierznik
36 Plays10 months ago
Join us on The WebWell Podcast as we embark on a journey with Bill Pierznik, a trailblazer in the legal field and an entrepreneur at heart. From opening a law firm in the tech-fueled days of Portland, OR, to holding key leadership roles at companies like Jive Software and Act-On, Bill shares his incredible journey, insights, and the lessons learned along the way.
Dive deep into Bill's beginnings, from his college days to the decision of starting his own firm at a young age. Hear firsthand accounts of the fast-paced environment at Jive Software, his growth at Act-On, and his latest venture with Dave Hersh at the innovative startup law firm, Macro Law. Discover how Macro Law is redefining legal services through technology, automation, and a unique business experience, including the adoption of membership-based pricing.
But there's more to Bill than law and leadership. As a franchise owner of Restore Hyper Wellness, Bill explores another facet of his entrepreneurial spirit. He also shares his personal growth mantra of adding one new skill each year, ranging from swimming to Spanish, and his passion for Mesoamerican history, Mexican food, and long day hikes.
Bill offers invaluable advice for aspiring lawyers, entrepreneurs, and anyone interested in starting a services business in today's rapidly changing world of AI and automation. He emphasizes the importance of humility, networking, flexibility, and the art of knowing when to pivot.
This episode is not just about the professional milestones but also about finding balance, continual learning, and the individuals who have inspired Bill's life philosophy. Tune in for an inspiring conversation filled with actionable insights for navigating your path, whether in law, business, or personal growth.
See what Bill's up to online:
@billpierznik
www.macrolg.com
www.restore.com
Please send your questions or comments to webwell@cascadewebdev.com We look forward to hearing from you!
Recommended
Transcript
Bill's Career Journey
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the web well podcast brought to you by cascade web development All right, welcome everyone back to the web well podcast I'm joined here with host Ben McKinley as well as our special guest bill peers Nick. Welcome everyone. I
00:00:26
Speaker
Wonderful. Well, thank you very much, Bill, for joining us today. I've been working with Bill going on a year now with his new law firm, Macro Law. And I've been watching Bill's journey since the late 90s, early aughts from afar. We met a couple times along the way through some mutual friends and really excited to dive a little bit deeper. But thank you, Bill, for joining us. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
00:00:52
Speaker
You bet. And so Bill's background includes started working in some large law firms, starting his own small law firm. My understanding is going in-house perhaps with a fast growing tech startup in Portland, moving through a couple of different tech companies in Portland and Silicon Valley and more recently starting out his own law firm yet again, Macro Law.
00:01:18
Speaker
as well as having a startup in the fitness and wellness business as a franchise owner. So lots of stuff to cover today. But Bill, typically what we like to do is start off by just inviting our guests to share a little bit about their story, their background, and kind of what led them to their professional journey.
Early Life and Education
00:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So I grew up on the East Coast. I was born in Philadelphia, grew up about 30 miles outside of the city. Brother, sister, mom and dad, you know, typical suburban, you know, early 80s household watching Miami Vice and, you know, and silver spoons and the like. I was the first person in my family to go to college. So I went to college right outside of Philadelphia, a small little liberal arts school called Haverford College.
00:02:06
Speaker
And then law school started in Philadelphia and then transferred to UCLA and finished my law degree at UCLA. I had had a stint for a couple of years working with a professional sports agent, thought that that was what I wanted to do, was not for me for a number of reasons.
Silicon Valley Experience
00:02:28
Speaker
Luckily at the time,
00:02:30
Speaker
This was the late 90s. Everybody in Silicon Valley was kind of hiring, you know, anybody with a pulse. And so I had a lot of friends from the, from law school who had taken jobs at some of the bigger firms in law firms in Silicon Valley. I interviewed and got a couple offers. And so I joined a law firm there named Cooley. It was called Cooley Godward at the time. It's now called Cooley. And that was, that's what kind of set me off. That was 99. And so, you know, we had,
00:02:59
Speaker
I think that was that year we had, we had represented the highest number of IPOs in the country. So if you think about like, you know, the internet boom, we were doing all that we were doing all the, you know, ton of M&A. It was a real fun but crazy time, but a great way to start off your career like you would work.
00:03:16
Speaker
You know, eight to six, you'd put in your, your, your dinner order, you go work out, you come back, you get your dinner, you worked on nine, maybe have a beer with a friend, go home and wake up, rinse and repeat. Um, so, uh, not a whole lot of free time, but an incredible way to kind of cut your teeth into space. Wow. Wow. And so, yeah, it seems like a lot of times, uh, you hear about folks starting off in, in various places and migrating to Silicon
Move to Portland
00:03:40
Speaker
Valley. And in a way you did, but how did you find your way to Portland?
00:03:44
Speaker
Yeah, so I was at Cooley and my now ex-wife is a physician. So she matched her residency. She was at Stanford for her internship and she was trying to match her residency in radiology and we were trying to figure out where to go. And this is telling, we didn't want to stay in the Bay Area then. This was like 2001 because we thought a house in Mountain View or Palo Alto priced at $700,000 was just crazy.
00:04:09
Speaker
So we're like, that's way too much money, we got to get out of here. So that was one of those decisions I regret. But we ended up deciding just to try out Portland, had visited here, really liked it. We really didn't have a network here. And we figured, well, our residency is four years. And if it doesn't work out, we can always pick up and move somewhere else.
00:04:28
Speaker
you know this was 2002 and we moved in and you know we moved in here during the summer and it was like what are people talking about the rain this is great and kind of you know got the bug and just kind of felt lived downtown and fell in love with the city and haven't left.
00:04:42
Speaker
Wow. And so for you, did you stay with Cooley or did you, what did your path look like there?
Joining Stole Reeves
00:04:49
Speaker
Yeah, so I left Cooley and started, came up and worked at a firm up here called Stole Reeves, which is a big Oregon, well, it's sort of geographic, it's a regional law firm, but it's HQ is in,
00:05:03
Speaker
Oregon, it's one of the bigger firms in the Pacific Northwest. And so I kind of came in with this pedigree of background working with tech startups in the Bay Area, as well as the I worked with Cisco and eBay and Yahoo and a bunch of those companies back in the day. So I was able to bring a lot of that kind of sort of know how to stole Reeves and had an interesting practice there. Usually when you go into a law firm,
00:05:27
Speaker
you kind of specialize like, hey, you're doing corporate law, or you're doing IP law, or you're doing employment law. And I've had this kind of great background working with all these startups and Stoll gave me the opportunity to say like, hey, instead of working in just one practice area, why don't you just work with startups generally?
00:05:45
Speaker
So I got this great experience and be able to work with startups and kind of do soup to nuts on the business side for them. And anytime I needed something, some specialty help, I had a big firm behind me to go work with. But I did that for four years and it was a lot of fun. And then I kind of got to a point where
00:06:02
Speaker
It was, hey, you're going to be making the run for partner and I probably was going to get it.
Founding Alto Law Group
00:06:07
Speaker
But I was, I kind of got to the point of, I saw all these entrepreneurs, people, Ben, you know, Ben, people like you and, you know, people that we know in general, you know, in the early 2000s kind of starting these companies. And I was thinking like, Hey, I want to go do that. But I don't know anything about product whatsoever.
00:06:22
Speaker
I know about law and I had this kind of cadre of clients who followed me from the Bay Area up to Stoll and then ones that I picked up at Stoll and my whole philosophy as well. If I leave, if I just do the math and I leave and I don't have the overhead of a big law firm with, you know, mahogany walls and, you know, a view of the mountains and I just kind of operate like a startup, I can probably make some pretty good money.
00:06:47
Speaker
So I was really scared. But kind of somebody told me one time, like the wall you're about to run through is just a paper wall. And that kind of stuck with me. And so I stepped out and started a law firm called Alto Law Group then and ran that for six years and grew it to five or six attorneys and a bunch of startups who represented, you throw back in the early 2000s, like, you know, E-Roy and
00:07:15
Speaker
urban airship and jive and JAMA and puppet and kind of, you know, you name the list of the Jan Rain, like the list of companies in the 2000s. We weren't doing all their legal work, but we were touching them in some ways. And I think a lot of it was just the approach that we took was not just, hey, we're going to issue spot. It was like, hey, we're a startup too. We understand we have to get deals done. How can we quickly get things through the pipeline for you guys? And I think the founders we worked with really appreciated that.
00:07:40
Speaker
That's great. I remember we, uh, after you had left Alto, we, we met with, uh, uh, one of the partners there, Josh, seemed like you guys had a very strict hiring height requirement. You guys both are, are, uh, rather tall. Yep. He's five. I'm six four. So yeah, we were twin towers.
00:07:59
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But it resonated with me as well. It definitely was a cool message and a lot more refreshing than some of the, you know, walking into a place like Stoll where you're just small and scrappy and you're like, wait, what? I got to cover all this overhead. So that's cool. So how did how did you go from from being a partner there and deciding that you wanted to get a little closer to the action?
Chief Legal Officer at Jive Software
00:08:23
Speaker
Yeah. So it was, um, I have a little bit of a, you know, self admitted FOMO all the time on things. It's sort of like, Hey, that what I'm doing is cool, but like, look what they're doing. And so Jive was one of my clients at the time and I became really good friends with the founders. Uh, and, uh, just, we represented them, not in all their work, but a lot of their work as they just scaled. And, you know, for people who don't know Jive was a company, you know, kind of in the,
00:08:49
Speaker
Was one of the first companies to take a lot of the social social media concepts and bring them into enterprise software. So things like blogs and wikis and collaboration and the like. And so Jive really took off during the 2000s and we were early 2000s. We were fortunate enough to be a part of that.
00:09:07
Speaker
And in 2010, they were thinking about going public. And so they were thinking, well, it's time to hire a general counsel. And so they approached me and asked me if I wanted to throw my hat in the ring. And at first I was like, yeah, sure, I'll interview. And then I
00:09:23
Speaker
was then kind of kept making it through the process and they kind of made me the offer. And I had to make this decision. Well, I have this really profitable, really fun kind of, you know, services business going, but I also have this opportunity here. And that was kind of one of the first times where it was like, hey, let's, it's not about the money. It's about the experience. It's about the growth. It's about the learning. And so we reached a deal with Josh, my partner, and kind of sold him the business and jumped in as the chief legal officer of Jive pre IPO.
00:09:54
Speaker
Very cool. Yeah, maybe that's something we could come back to on two points, actually, both that that idea of being a partner in a law firm and then going in house. That's always something I found interesting, as well as the notion of a service company. And again, I think maybe we can come back if we have some time on that. But that's that's always something I found fascinating as I look at product versus service, you know, cascade, mainly service. We did that brand live product experience. And wow, what a what a different path that was indeed. But
00:10:21
Speaker
Very cool and gosh jive like it's like, you know, as I'd mentioned before we started recording Media darling lots of attention. They deserved it. They really helped, you know create that that excitement around the Portland tech scene Do you have any fun stories about about some of the action that you saw there or or pivotal moments?
00:10:40
Speaker
There's
Jive Software Work Culture
00:10:41
Speaker
a ton of them. The one thing, I was just talking to someone yesterday who I worked with at Jive and everybody's gone their separate ways, but one of the things that people always kind of, whenever people get back together, everyone talks about, man, wasn't that a ride? That was crazy. It was intense. But what you realize is when you spend as much time on the front end of hiring as Jive did, I mean, it was
00:11:07
Speaker
pretty brutal to get through almost any role to get into Jive. And that was, I credit Matt and Bill and Dave Hirsch at the start. That's how they built the business to start was like, hey, this is our baby. And if you want to be a part of it, we're going to really make sure you want it. And we're going to really vet you.
00:11:24
Speaker
So what that did was the people who were there, one, you had to really want to be there, but two, you had like just amazing people. Just if you look at kind of the, you know, and there's a lot of companies that are like this, but if you look at kind of the DNA that Jive has put out into the world, I mean, there's CEOs, a billion dollar companies now who were product managers at Jive back in the day, literally.
00:11:44
Speaker
And so, you know, that's kind of the overall vibe I get from it. It was a great learning experience. It was the place where, you know, there's always healthy friction between different departments. And, you know, we learned and that was the place where I think I learned the most in terms of legal. How do you actually be an accelerator for deals and process and the business rather than being the speed bump?
00:12:07
Speaker
And so there were times when the CRO and I would get into yelling matches all the time, but then we would hug it out. And so one time he actually almost got thrown out of a hotel because he was yelling so loudly at me on the phone. And then so the security came by and told him he had to be quiet. And so he comes back, he's like, hold on. So he comes back and he's like, that was security. And so then he starts whisper yelling at me.
00:12:32
Speaker
the whole time, which is pretty funny. So anybody who knows this guy, John McCracken, you'll love the guy. He's amazing. But, you know, so the stories from there were a lot of like, we're all in the boat together. And this is what the CEO who took over for Dave, you know, the way he approached it was, look, you've gotten through the interview process, which means you're capable in whatever your skill set is, right? So I know you can do the legal. But my question is, are you in the boat with us? And by that, what I mean is,
00:13:02
Speaker
You know, we're all, we're a startup. You know, at the time Jive was still a startup. We were going against IBM and Microsoft and, you know, we're all in the boat rowboat together and we're all rowing, trying to take the Island and everybody has their own weapon, but now the person next to you gets taken out. And now, you know, you're now rowing for two people. And, you know, can you kind of leave your ego at the door, but bring your soul and bring your energy. And so that's, that's what I remember a lot about that time.
00:13:29
Speaker
Wow, that's really cool. Really cool. And I, I think about that too, in terms of some of the organizations I've been a part of where you then you reflect on like, where are they now? And it's so cool to see those, you know, those types of force multipliers in different industries that really help to, you know, change many landscapes, but kind of where are they now stories are pretty exciting. Sounds like there's plenty of shares with Jive.
00:13:52
Speaker
for sure. Very cool. Very cool. So how did how did the transition away from jive into act on look that was that kind of the next step?
COO at Act-On Software
00:14:01
Speaker
Yeah, well, there's an there's an intermediate step there a JAMA software. So basically a jive, I ran the legal department. And then I just kept one of the things I always do is just want to learn and do more and how can I grow kind of what I'm doing? I don't I don't I'm not a very good
00:14:18
Speaker
a creature of comfort type of person. And so for me, it was a jive. It was like, well, how can I get involved in more than just legal? So eventually I ended up taking over corporate development, which was M&A. So we did a bunch of M&A transactions. We had to integrate those companies into jive. And then I took over business development and ecosystem, which then helped me partner with a product team. And so it was always kind of just, how do I make the concentric circle of my kind of expertise and knowledge get bigger?
00:14:46
Speaker
And so I left Jive after about four years. It was kind of a transition time. The CEO had left that hired me. I decided to leave. I went over to JAMA, where a good friend of mine, Eric Winquist, was the CEO. Got there, spent a year there, was running legal, but then also helped run the sales department for a little bit, just because I was helping with deals so much and they had had a transition. So I kind of stepped in and did that.
00:15:11
Speaker
And then the opportunity of Acton came on, came up, and I took that role. Initially it was VP of Legal and Biz Dev, and so I was doing a bunch of partnerships and the like. In 2018, Acton, we underwent a pretty big restructuring in the business, and that's when I stepped into the COO role. And so I stayed in that role for what, four and a half years, where I was responsible at various times for the product organization,
00:15:40
Speaker
uh, engineering, customer success, help, you know, with marketing for a while. So that was kind of my foray into kind of the broader scope of a, you know, multi multi-million dollar, uh, SaaS business. Right. Yeah. I think that's where I first met you. Was it a, an event that, that Ryan hosted at eRoy and, and, uh, you guys were, you were in it and it was really exciting to, to see that organization as well. Very cool. Very cool. Well, so, um,
00:16:09
Speaker
And then I guess more recently you teamed up again with Dave Hirsch down in Silicon Valley again. Is that right? Mobilize?
Mobilize Project with Dave Hirsch
00:16:17
Speaker
Yeah. I think our HQ was down in the Bay Area, but we were remote first even before the pandemic.
00:16:26
Speaker
And so I was at Act-On for a while. And then again, for me, I can't stay too long in one place doing the same thing. And so I was ready for something new, left on really good terms, still close with the Act-On team.
00:16:41
Speaker
And at the time, Dave has sort of a private, his own little kind of private equity fund that he's, you know, one of the things he's focused on is trying to restart startups, basically take startups that have had, you know, a good, you know, maybe good product market fit, or maybe a good product fit, but maybe that didn't really execute well on the go to market. And how do you actually take something that the world can still use?
00:17:03
Speaker
and kind of take, maybe redo a capitalization, recap the company, maybe take out the VCs who kind of pushed you to kind of grow at this breakneck pace and just get it back and retrench it into a profitable business. So he's done that with a few companies. And one of the ones that he asked, the company asked me to help with was a company called Mobilize, which is basically, it was communities, so external communities,
00:17:30
Speaker
but focused primarily in the association and non-profit space. And so it was more of a project. He asked me to come on board and try to help him figure out what to do with it. He had been working in there, I think for five or six years, and he was kind of, hey, I need some fresh eyes on this.
00:17:48
Speaker
So came in there and spent about six months in there and we decided that, hey, we either need to go raise a bunch of money or we need to find probably this, we need to find a different space, a different home for this, maybe, you know, some part of roll up. And we were fortunate enough that we found a learning management company that was looking to pair the concept of learning management with kind of associations. So the idea being, hey, if you're, you know,
00:18:15
Speaker
if you're part of the National Realtors Association and you want to grow in your career, you not only have this learning management system that can help you with certifications and trainings and know-how, but then you also have this community wrapper around it where you can actually collaborate with people that you've either gone through these courses with or your other cohorts. And so we sold that business in 2023, in May of 2023, to a company called Forge, which has now kind of wrapped it in as part of their overall offering.
00:18:45
Speaker
Oh, good. Yeah, I'm sure he was glad to have you on the on the in the network that he could pull into to give it some fresh perspective and help find the way. Yeah, it was a it was a good, you know, Dave's my best friend. He was the best man at my wedding. So, you know, it was the opportunity for us to work together again. It was it was a good, short, but but but meaningful time for both of us. Right on. And so now you're what, maybe a year into macro law? Is that about
Launching Macro Law
00:19:11
Speaker
right?
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah, so what happened was we knew we were going to sell, mobilize about this time, January of 2023. And so then I started thinking, well, what am I going to do next? And I started...
00:19:23
Speaker
thinking about things a little bit differently. My whole career, I had been kind of like, hey, what's next? And how can, you know, this time I was like, let's take a pause and step back. And I knew at the end of 2023, I was turning 50. And I was like, okay, so rather than think about what's next, like, how do I want the next 10 years of my life to look, right? Let's reverse engineer what I want to be in 10 years. And let's reverse engineer back from that.
00:19:47
Speaker
so that was one thought the other thought was like being inside of the and this is really the big genesis of macro was like two things one is i loved growing my own business with alto like i love practicing law but i really love the business of building the business around the services kind of like you guys are doing at cascade and so the idea was like how can i get back to that and
00:20:07
Speaker
The question was, okay, that was 2004, 2005 when I started Alto. If I was going to go start it today in 2023, what would I do differently? And it's not only like, well, what's changed in the legal space, but I had also had all of this, you know, 10 plus years of experience inside the tech companies. And I'll tell you, like, yeah, sure, there's bloat inside of tech companies. But if you look at particular departments, like if you look at engineering teams, high functioning engineering teams,
00:20:34
Speaker
and high functioning customer support teams, they're pretty lean, right? And so how do they punch above their weight all the time? It's a combination of, you know, you got to have really good people for sure. But then there's also there's process, automation, and technology, right? And so I started thinking, well, like, I would watch, you know, our engineering teams
00:20:54
Speaker
work on a project, you know, would get prioritized, they'd work on it, something else would come through and they'd reprioritize and shift everything around. It was kind of this, it was a little bit of like, you know, the duck on the lake where like, you don't really see what's going on under the water. There's about, there's a lot of chaos. But the reality is, you know, people don't always get it right. But for the most part, there's defined processes that work. And that's why people follow them. And so I started thinking, well,
00:21:18
Speaker
Why can't a law firm operate that way? What's the difference between a support ticket and a contract red line? And why are lawyers doing customer success work inside of law firms? Why are lawyers being account managers? Why do you have a whole bunch of admins who are doing things that you can automate on the back end through tooling?
00:21:40
Speaker
And so I'd had this idea in my mind, that was my pet project during the pandemic was building out this concept of a new law firm. And then when I knew Mobilize was going to sell, I started like, okay, that's what I want to go do. And so I reached out to a woman named Bonnie Page, who's been in, she's been in Portland for a long time. She's been GCs of a bunch of Smarsh and Brand Live and a bunch of other companies.
00:22:05
Speaker
And I reached out to her. She had her own kind of firm at the time and had always gotten along with her. And people who worked with both of us were like, you guys should work together. So I approached her about this time last year and she was like, yeah, let's do it. And so that kind of kicked it all off. And so while we were selling Mobilize, we were kind of in the big beginning stages of thinking about launching Macro. And so we launched it officially in June of 2023.
00:22:29
Speaker
Very cool. And so as you've attempted to integrate some of this automation and intelligence technology, what are some of the elements that you look at and say, man, that's working better than I thought it would? And what are some other areas where maybe it hasn't quite worked out as you might
Legal Automation Attempts
00:22:48
Speaker
have hoped?
00:22:48
Speaker
Yeah, so our initial idea was, well, one of our philosophies was like, this is right when chat GPT had just blown up and everyone was talking about generative AI and hey, everybody's gonna be out of a job soon. And like, and you know, we're definitely not the first people to say this, but we believe this. Like the robots are not gonna replace the lawyers anytime soon, but the lawyers who know how to harness and use the robots are gonna replace those that don't, right? That's, and I still believe that to be true. So we said, well, let's build a law firm
00:23:17
Speaker
where we can leverage technology to do the work as much as possible so we're not doing it. So we spent a ton of time, I would say the first three or four months, we actually hired an AI engineer for a while as a consultant. And so what we were trying to do was trying to find AI tools, generative AI tools that could do the work that a lawyer would typically do. And I'll give you an example.
00:23:40
Speaker
So we have a lot of clients who are, you know, SaaS businesses or services companies or software companies that have their form agreement. And then, you know, they send it off and they're sending it selling to a big enterprise company and the enterprise company says, Hey, we like we so we got your email with your, you know, your five page
00:23:57
Speaker
you know, agreement, that's really cute. Like here's our 65 page procurement agreement, right? And so then startup gets it and they got to send it through the lawyer and then it takes six hours, seven hours to redline it. And then you do some back and forth internally, you send it over. And our thought is, well, like, eventually if you have a form agreement and a playbook with fallback clauses and some rules, some rules governing kind of, if then,
00:24:22
Speaker
then when that procurement document comes in, the robot should be able to do the first pass on that. And then say, recommend, here's a recommended red line for you. And then the lawyers or the contracts people or the paralegals are doing the QA on it.
00:24:37
Speaker
So that's what we really wanted to do. And there's a bunch of products out there that are starting to do that. But what we realized pretty quickly was it's not it's like a lot of the generative stuff. It's not there yet. Right. Like it'll get there and you can kind of see promises of it. But we weren't comfortable enough where we were like, OK, that we can put that into production. And so and funny story, one of the vendors told us
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah, you know, we're about 85% accurate. And it's like, dude, we're law, like, you can't be, you can't be 85% accurate. And, you know, the funny thing is, like, the first time they ran a red line, it would be 85% accurate. The second time was about 85% accurate, but it was different accuracies and different
00:25:15
Speaker
and different risk tolerances and the like. So we kind of pushed pause on diving deep into that. And instead, what we've been doing on the contract review side is using paralegals and sort of non-lawyers who are, frankly,
00:25:33
Speaker
more cost-effective, to do the same thing that we want the AI to do in the future. So we build out playbooks, we go into a client, we ask them for their form agreements, we build out like, how far are you willing to go on this clause? What are the fallback clauses? And then we build a playbook that our team on the back end can actually use to actually review and redline the contracts, and then we do the QA before it goes out. So the goal is for us to get that, we get comfortable with that, our clients get comfortable with that, so that eventually when the technology
00:26:03
Speaker
can be there, the technology will just make all that a whole lot faster and a lot more efficient. And the nice thing about that is, if you can really do that, and you can take that, you know, six hour red line process that I talked to you about that I mentioned earlier, turn it into 15 minutes. Well, now the Bilbo hour really makes no sense.
00:26:20
Speaker
Right so now you kind of go into the times up book and thinking about what's the now you start talking like a product company. What's the value to you customer. What's the ROI you got out of this not how long did it take me because that's that's irrelevant right. What's the value to you on this. So that's one area that we've been kind of focused and playing a lot on.
00:26:40
Speaker
And then the other area is you don't need the generative AI stuff to automate internal processes and workflows. Again, if you think about a ticketing system, if anybody has ever logged a support ticket with anybody, you get that automatic response that says, hey, we got your support ticket.
00:26:58
Speaker
your request for support, you're in the queue, here's a little information. And then that goes into a workflow in the back end that then gets kind of assigned out to somebody to go work on. So what we're building is kind of the automation on the back end to be able to not only ingest kind of projects, but also do things like ingest clients. So for instance, there will be a point in time pretty quickly here where if we're on a Zoom call together, there'll be special language in the invite that says potential client representation or something like that.
00:27:28
Speaker
When the zoom call ends, I'll get a slack notification that says how the conversation go with Ben. Should we send an engagement letter? I write back. Yes, here's the detail and I push, you know, enter on this on slack. That's kicks off a whole workflow that sends you an engagement letter, captures all of the data I need for the CRM captures all the ACH and billing information I need.
00:27:49
Speaker
that comes all the way back around, populates everything in our system, creates all the files automatically. And then the nice thing about that is I don't have to hire admins to go do that. And what we tell clients is when you're hiring that lawyer and they're telling you they're 900, 700, 1200 bucks an hour, it's not just them. They've got the whole team behind what they have to pay for. So we can automate all of that. We can also keep the per hour rate a lot lower than it otherwise would be. So those are two areas that we're looking at now. We hired a firm that's building
00:28:18
Speaker
kind of customizing all this on the back end for us on top of air table, which has been really good so far.
00:28:24
Speaker
Okay, okay. Well, that's slick. That's, you know, I appreciate the update. Because remember the when we first started talking, I believe last summer, you were discussing a lot of that stuff. But but we run into similar things where it's like, how do we plug AI into our business in a meaningful way, right? Not just feeding the hype machine and it's kind of junk, but but where where can we add real value. And that can be a little bit tricky. And you know, we've been at this now for I guess,
00:28:50
Speaker
23 years with cascade another three and a half year prior to that. And it's like, man, we don't plan on going anywhere. And so we're not interested in just that meteoric rise, and then we're gonna, you know, get sold or acquired or whatever. So we don't want to just, you know, succumb to the desire to chase the money when there's not the value proposition, but similar, similar steps along the way for sure.
00:29:10
Speaker
Right. Well, that's where I mean, one thing I would tell people is people to your point around the hype cycle or on AI, I wouldn't get too worried around that. I would start playing with stuff even if your own personal life. I think the bigger things that are available today that people aren't taking enough advantage of are just the automations and the integrations. So, you know, your ability to kind of connect up different systems and workflows and how do you get data from over here into over here without doing the manual cut and paste.
00:29:37
Speaker
A lot of that is available today. It's not available in every system and every use case, but a lot of stuff is available today to actually just make your day-to-day life on the back end easier, even if your clients aren't seeing it. Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm diving in as much, but I know Simon's got himself a new chat GPT intern. What's his name again?
00:29:56
Speaker
Steve. Steve. Yeah. So Simon's got Steve and of course our tech team, they're using all sorts of different ways and we're looking at ways of integrating into our content management system. But even thinking about like, you know, translation technology, right? So instead of paying someone to take a body of text and then translate into another language and then go back and QA edit that, instead we're like, man, if we could get IA to AI to
00:30:26
Speaker
to translate it and then you simply have the person go through and make sure that all those translations make sense technically etc like those are really meaningful steps forward that i think again it's a different conversation on that value proposition than just you know trading hours for dollars so it's it's an exciting realm well that's cool to hear you're disrupting that realm as much as you are and finding some traction there
00:30:47
Speaker
Um, and then of course you got, you never, never satisfied, uh, is the theme here. You got this little, I don't know if I can call it a side hustle. What would you, what would you call your, uh, your franchise ownership with, uh, with the restore
Franchise Ownership in Wellness
00:30:59
Speaker
hyper wellness? What's going on there? Yeah. So I, uh, I was an athlete growing up and you know, like a lot of people, as you get older, your body just starts to break down. So I, during the, during the pandemic, I developed, uh, arthritis in my lower back and just prevented me from doing a lot of things. And I'm pretty active.
00:31:16
Speaker
So I tried everything. I went orthopedic, one of the trailblazers, orthopedic surgeons, physical therapy, chiropractor, all that stuff. Some of it was a little bit helpful, but none of it truly worked. A friend of mine had been going to this franchise, Restore.
00:31:32
Speaker
doing cryotherapy and red light therapy for awhile. And she's like, you got to try this. So eventually I tried it and literally like day one, my back was like, Hey, this is actually pretty good. So I started going religiously. And, um, you know, the cryotherapy is basically like standing in a phone booth, not too different than why I'm here. And, you know, it's basically cold plunge, but with air. So they dropped down the temperature, depending on the machine, 220 degrees below zero, you're wearing gloves and hats and boots.
00:32:00
Speaker
And you're in there somewhere between one to three minutes. So I just started doing that, and it really worked. And then my buddy and I, my business partner and I, we're trying to think about, we're trying to buy a business during the pandemic. We looked at little startups and looked at Amazon businesses. And then when I started going to restore, I was like, hey, there's something here. I totally believe in this. He started going, he started buying into it. And so we started talking to restore about franchise opportunities.
00:32:27
Speaker
And so we own four territories, most of them in Central Oregon, one in Washington. And we signed the lease, signed the loan documents on Friday to open our first store in Eugene in May, which is going to be really exciting. And so Restore Hyper Wellness is the name. It is a combination, it's kind of kind of three big picture modalities, but it's about health and longevity and wellness.
00:32:52
Speaker
And so there's core services, like I said, there's hyperbaric chamber, there's red light therapy, cryotherapy, infrared sauna, there's nurse practitioner services, so think of IM shots, IV drips, and the like, and then there's esthetician services for things like hydro facials and cryo facials and cryo slimming. And so this is just a way to think proactively about your health and be
00:33:18
Speaker
to try to be healthy and having it all under one roof. A lot of places will have, hey, we have a cold plunge. But to be able to do multiple modalities under one roof in one setting was pretty appealing to us. Interesting. Very cool. And so is Portland one of the regions that you have rights to? No, Portland is owned by another guy that we were friends with. So you basically, if anybody buys a franchise, you kind of buy the territories. Got it. We bought Bend.
00:33:47
Speaker
Oregon, Bend, Eugene, Salem, and Tri-Cities Washington. And Eugene just happened to pop up as a spot with one massive opportunity in terms of very healthy lifestyle, not a lot of competition for this there now. And we actually found a great location to go into with a really good partner as a landlord. So that's why we picked Eugene first.
00:34:09
Speaker
Got it. Yeah. That totally makes sense to me. You know, track down USA, lots of people running and being active. So man, that's cool. I look forward to hearing more about that and maybe even check it out myself. Cause I can relate to some of those ailments. Yeah. Well, we'll have you down for the, or do a grant. We'd do a big, big grand opening in May, uh, right before the NCAA track and shield field championships down there. So we'll make sure we invite you now. Oh, fantastic. Fantastic.
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah, Bill, like I said, I think we didn't push record yet, but you were asking about kind of the lens we look at. I think ultimately for me and in reverse for Ben, getting to know partners, friends, clients, and your whole perspective on what I'm gonna call work and your fulfillment in what you do is super intriguing.
00:34:59
Speaker
There is a kind of this model that Ben and I have been tracking when it comes to creative directors within agencies that get hired and then they job hop, right? I don't sense that from you, even though we just talked about how like you went from here to here to here, you said these keywords of like, I left it and we had good relationships, I'm still friends with those. I think that's one of the differentiators, but then two, that it's not that you get bored, but you really thrive.
00:35:29
Speaker
on that startup that the whole, what I look at is like, okay, there's these obstacles we have to overcome. So like complete problem solver is really what I see you doing. And then also the fact that you're going into this restore hyper wellness, like at the tail end of the conversation you just had like,
00:35:48
Speaker
You care about it. This is something you'd like and so so you're doing that. I think that's super intriguing I love hearing that what what do you see then for your future? What do you see for the next five ten years you mentioned? Your ten-year plan if you will What do you see coming up for the next five ten years
Continuous Learning and Growth
00:36:07
Speaker
for yourself?
00:36:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think, I think, you know, one of the themes is, well, first of all, I totally agree with you on and this is advice to anybody. I always tell people, everybody is worried about how they enter into a new job, right? Like, what do I, I got to show up the right way and I got it, you know, my first impressions matter. I would say last impressions matter too. So my advice to people is always,
00:36:28
Speaker
it's just as important how you leave an organization as to how you started there. Because you will run into those people in some capacity. So I agree with you, or at least the sentiment of making sure that you enter, you leave on just as good of a note as you've entered. For me, I think
00:36:46
Speaker
The theme I want to continue is just growth and the journey. For me, it's not about an end state. As an athlete, I think as you get older, I'm never going to be as good as basketball as I used to be. I'm never going to be as good at most things, which is why I think a lot of people like golf because you can actually get better at it as you get older.
00:37:03
Speaker
So what are the other things in life that is actually a challenge to you as you get older? So, you know, for me, the next five to 10 years is just, I want to build this law firm, we want to build this differently, we want to, you know, be able to build this as to something that's truly kind of disruptive. But I also want to do it in a way where I can actually not just live my life through the lens of one thing, one passion. I think, you know, when you're younger, you can kind of tend to do that as you get older, I've got kids, I've got a wife, I've got
00:37:30
Speaker
you know, another business. And so the question is, you know, how do you just make time for it all? And so for me, the next five to 10 years are, what do I want the, you know, age 60? What do I want to be? I'm starting to get a sense of that right now, but it's still a little early.
00:37:45
Speaker
But during that, it's like, what can I do along the way that I learn and grow? And that's, that's the number one thing to me. So like an example is, every year I try to pick up something new. So I just try to learn some new skill. So a few years ago was swimming and I did my first triathlon hired as coach. Then it was, Hey, I'm going to take up Spanish. So I've been taking Spanish lessons ever since. Then I went to play pool. I want to learn how to play pool. Well, so I've
00:38:11
Speaker
picked up that. This year was going to be, hey, I want to learn how to play cards really well. But my wife challenged me to take up dance lessons with her. So I'm six foot four. I am not I am like the gawky giraffe. But it's going to be fun to learn how to do this with her. So the next 10, five to 10 years, I want it to be, yes, I want to make money. Yes, I want to be successful. But I want to enjoy it more than anything else. Because there's gonna be a point in time where I can't do these things anymore. And that's the most important thing to me.
00:38:40
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah. No, I, I think, uh, Ben and I both, uh, connect with that really well. I think that is definitely why we wake up every day, uh, without dreading like, Oh, it's just another day. Right. Um, well, maybe we can, uh, we can go ahead. Sorry. No, no, I'm good.
00:38:59
Speaker
Maybe then we can actually dive into some of what you were talking about, personal passions. What are things outside of work? You talked about playing cards or this year dancing. What else do you, between your family and community, what are you doing outside of the work?
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah, well, I'm fortunate enough to be married to my best friend. So we have, we do a ton of adventures together, which is great. My kids are now 18 and a half and 16 and a half. And so they're fun, two boys. And everyone says this, but it's true. Like just when they start getting cool and stop being super freaking annoying, like they're about to leave. So the next year, year and a half is going to be spending a lot of time with them before they kind of, you know, ride off to their own kind of next journey.
00:39:47
Speaker
My other passions outside of work are I try to stay, I tell everybody it's in everybody's best interest that I work out because if not, I get really cranky and it's better for me to take it out on my own body or on weights or a punching bag rather than not be able to do that. So I try to be very cognizant of finding time to be active.
00:40:10
Speaker
I'm a big, randomly, I was a history major in college. This was not a focus for me, but I've become really, really, really interested in Mesoamerican history. So everything from Mexico down to Guatemala, the Mayans, Zapotecs, the Aztecs, I've dove deep into that over the past few years.
00:40:27
Speaker
I just turned 50 in December and we did a trip. We hired an archa-anthropologist to take us around to Oaxaca and, you know, take us to some ruins down there. That then led into become a big fan of Mexican food and Mexican cooking. So spent a lot of time making mole and different types of, you know, off the beaten path type of Mexican food.
00:40:51
Speaker
And then every year, my buddies and I try to do a long hike. So a couple of years ago, we did the Enchantments, which is a 25 mile one way hike up in Washington State. Last year, we bit off almost more than we could chew. We did the Timberline Trail, which is the trail around Mount Hood. The route we took, it was like 46 miles. And we ended up, we did that in one day. So it was a pretty long day.
00:41:16
Speaker
But, you know, those those are things that I always like to be training and getting better at something. So if I have a goal that it's easier for me to train for. So all that stuff keeps me out of out of trouble. Yeah, that Timberline Trail is a humbling trail indeed. Yeah, beautiful, though. And did you start and end? Which way did you go? We started just before Timberline and we went counterclockwise.
00:41:38
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. That's the way I've always gone to. It always feels like once you get up to Narl Ridge, you're kind of going downhill for like 25 miles to the Sandy. But then that last 10 miles and 3,300 feet sure is a kick in the teeth to finish the day. 100%. 100%. But the Narl Ridge is, it is gnarly. It's well named.
00:41:55
Speaker
Yeah, indeed. Well, a lot to join forces. I've got similar interests there in terms of taking lots of steps in one day. And I always found like, as much as I love the multi-day stuff, and I think there's desire to go further in that direction in the coming years and, you know, mess around with light packs and the like, but a lot of it too is just, you know, with full schedules, like how much can you cram in from, you know, sunrise to sundown and maybe even encroaching some darkness to
00:42:19
Speaker
to get some fun in. But I also like the hiking piece because I feel like with my wife, a lot of my other activities have some risk, some real risk and the hiking, you know, obviously there's risk there, but it feels more manageable than, you know, traveling at high speeds on bikes or, you know, under power of internal combustion engines. So
00:42:37
Speaker
Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. If it's not, you're not doing it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, I guess with that, you know, thinking about like the balance of all that, right? Do you have any insights or suggestions on how you have you how have you sort of learned and perhaps gotten better at at at blending all of those things and feeling like there's there's some measure of balance?
Balancing Ventures and Personal Life
00:43:00
Speaker
I don't. I have no advice for people on this. And I think a lot of people who do have advice are, it's kind of bullshit, pardon my French, but I think a lot, you just make it work, right? So you just got to prioritize and you just know, hey, if I want to do all this stuff, I'm either, I'm not going to have time to spend time with my kids or I'm not going to have time to sleep or I'm not going to have time to do this. And so,
00:43:27
Speaker
For me, there, I don't, there's probably three days a year where I feel like everything's in perfect balance. And then like now, like, you know, you were talking like, I've got the macro thing. I've got the restore thing. I actually have another kind of little small business I'm working on. And there's probably four times a month where I look at my wife and I'm like, what am I doing? This is stupid. Like I'm so frustrated. But I know like, board me is way worse.
00:43:49
Speaker
them overstressed me because that will pass over time. So I don't have any good recommendations for people on this other than everybody's a snowflake on this and everybody's just wired differently. And if you start trying to march too much to somebody else's drum, maybe take in all the advice. That's great. But at the end of the day, you're the one who knows how you feel. Do you feel like getting up at five in the morning and going to work out at the gym?
00:44:14
Speaker
If you don't feel it, you're gonna be able to do it for a while, but it's not sustainable. So you got to figure out like, yeah, this works for me. And what works for me probably doesn't work for everybody. And what works for me today probably won't work for me in three or four years. So I don't think there's any advice in there, just more empathy with for what everybody else is going through, which is, you know, there's no such thing as work life balance. It's just life, you know, like you just you just figure it out because you have to.
00:44:41
Speaker
embracing the messiness a little bit, right? Totally. Totally. That's right. And there's, there's no easy way through it. You just gotta, you just gotta get through it in one way or another and know that it's not the fault of anybody around you. Most of the time we do this to ourselves. And so, you know, I think that's one thing I've learned is there's no benefit in taking any of this out on anybody else. You're the one who did this to yourself. So, you know, point it inward and just get through it because it will get better. Everything will get better over time.
00:45:07
Speaker
Indeed. That's great. That's great. Well, let's see kind of coming to the end here. But and towards the end, we always kind of like to just, you know, hear if you've got any any inspiration or advice that you can share. And one of those areas that's always pretty exciting is particular individuals who have greatly influenced or inspired your life philosophy.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah. First is probably my dad. So my dad was a pretty blue collar guy growing up. And like I said, I was the first one to go to college in my family. And I had the opportunity, I transferred law schools that I had mentioned. And I wasn't sure if I was going to do it because my whole family at the time lived with like extended family all lived in like a 35 mile radius.
00:45:51
Speaker
So I had this opportunity to go work in California for this sports agent that they would eventually leave me to transfer to UCLA. And I had coffee with my dad one day, and my dad was like, do you know how many times I said in my life, what if? This is a what if moment. You got to go do it. And so he kind of set me on this journey. But he's always brought a blue collar ethic to things, but also humor. He's a pretty funny guy, which I tried to adopt as much as possible.
00:46:18
Speaker
Another person that sticks out in mind is my high school basketball coach because again, he was just he was the first person who I remember one practice Saturday morning, seven, eight o'clock we were all kind of dragging and he was like, I don't want to be here. Do you think I want to be here, but I'm here. We got to be here. If you're here, you show up and you do the work and you got to put pride in what you're doing.
00:46:36
Speaker
So for some reason, you know, you have these quotes in your life that kind of stick with you. And that's what that's one that has always stuck with me. And then my wife Bree is probably more recently, so I got divorced in 2014, remarried in 2020, right before the pandemic. And Bree's been a great emotionally
00:46:57
Speaker
inspiration for me of just kind of how do you bring soul to the world and everything doesn't have to be you know zero sum game like how do you make everything kind of a win-win and how do you find the commonality in humans. So that's been a pretty good learning experience later in life for me.
00:47:14
Speaker
What a cool compliment. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. And I hear you on coaches, I hear on all three of those, but certainly coaches, I think they serve such a valuable role in my life. And I'm 28 years in the, in the coaching ranks, trying to pay it forward in some measure. But those, those, those individuals, those key times in life, and it's so much bigger than the, you know, blocking and tackling type stuff. It's, it's those bigger life elements that really resonate and hold weight over time.
00:47:41
Speaker
And one thing I would say to that is like, I once in a while, I go back, I just send my high school basketball coach, a note used to be a written letter. Now it's an email or now it's a, you know, Facebook message, and just kind of thank them for what they did. So that's one piece. Like, people don't know the impact that they have on your life unless you tell them. And there's people I'm sure all of us have run into 20 years ago, 10 years ago, whatever. And it's really nice to be on the other end of those things to know that you made a difference longer term.
00:48:08
Speaker
100%. You know, that was one of the best things, if I reflect on social media is that I got to reconnect with these coaches that I hadn't been in touch with. And just like, how are you, man? Or, you know, females that were amazing coaches and just the opportunity to just like, make them uncomfortable by letting them know you had a huge impact. And and it's been really phenomenal to see those responses. And I certainly love receiving them as these athletes have gone on and come back and I see him and whether it's high fives and hugs at the resort or
00:48:36
Speaker
you know, otherwise hearing from them getting invited to, you know, key experiences in their lives, graduations, weddings, etc. Like that, that's huge. But I think communicating that is key. And those folks that make those contributions, man, that's far better than whatever else they hope to gain from their experience investing in other people.
00:48:56
Speaker
And that can be a coach, that can be a teacher, that can be a counselor, a boy scout, girl scouts, like whoever those people are in your life that help shape you and get you to where you are. One, see what you're doing. So kudos on you for paying it forward, but also pay it back and go thank them.
00:49:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that's one thing I noticed is some of my ski coaches, you know, they were they were just really struggling to stay in the game and skiing is obviously very expensive and maybe life didn't have as much other sort of upside. But to come along and share that with them and one of one of these really meaningful coaches of mine, I ended up seeing him and he was renting tools at this tool rental place in Portland. And it's like the last place I would have expected to see him. But it's just like, dude, none of that matters.
00:49:41
Speaker
You've made huge investments in my life. I'm happy to see you and catch up and those are great opportunities for sure. Cool. Let's see, any advice you had offered individuals interested in going to law school or starting their own business?
00:49:56
Speaker
Yeah, the law's going to be interesting over the next few years because I do think as AI comes along, it is going to change, disrupt law, regardless of what the success of my firm. But over time, these tools are going to automate a lot of the sort of day-to-day, like lower level tasks that, frankly, people who are starting off their careers are doing today manually.
00:50:20
Speaker
I think my advice would be go to the biggest, most expansive law firm you can to start if you have the opportunity to. Because one thing those places do that none of the rest of us can do is train. They train extremely well.
00:50:36
Speaker
And the knowledge you'll pick up there, it's, you know, maybe, you know, it may be rough, it may be kind of soul, you know, soul sucking, and it may be kind of not the most rewarding thing you'll ever do. But man, that training you get those first few years, it's really hard to replicate. And then once you have that experience, you can decide, do I want to stick it out here? Do I want to go in-house? Do I want to go start my own thing? Do I want to go to a small boutique?
00:51:00
Speaker
So it's always easier to go from the big, it's probably true in every services business, right? It's easier to start at the McKinsey's of the world and then kind of go to somewhere else. Same in law. So that would be one thing. And then, you know, let make sure that you're thinking about how technology is going to be disrupting this because I truly think that the people who are coming into law school today are going to be teaching the rest of us.
00:51:26
Speaker
the stuff that we just haven't figured out yet. And hey, here's this piece of technology that wasn't built for a law firm, but we could leverage it this way. And I think the younger generations, it's true, they're always going to be more technologically advanced than us. And if you're able to kind of show up with one working hard,
00:51:46
Speaker
to the experience of being in a big law firm. And three, kind of this, hey, let me show you how to leverage the tool sets that we're not currently leveraging. I think that's going to be really valuable in the future.
00:51:57
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, that's one of those things that I've reflected on many times when people have asked me, how do I start my own business? And it's like, boy, maybe go to work for someone else, learn on their dime, figure out a lot of that stuff and how things get done. But certainly the idea of asking for help, reading, you know, trying to find that network that can educate you, whether that's your boss,
00:52:20
Speaker
or if you are self-employed to go out there and find other fellow travelers that have been there, done that, because there is a ton to learn and trying to figure that out in a vacuum is pretty futile.
00:52:30
Speaker
Yeah, that would be my advice to anybody who's starting a business generally is be humble. There's no such thing as stupid questions. Ask. There's some type of tribe around you in some way. Leverage those people because everybody's been in your seat. Nobody had it figured out to start. The people who do the best are the ones who admit that right away as fast as possible and are a sponge for everybody else around them. And then figure out, based on all these things people are telling me, here's what I think I should go do.
00:53:00
Speaker
So if you're starting something, be humble, be inquisitive, know that you're gonna get it wrong more times than you get it right, particularly to start, and then also kind of know when to quit and whether that quitting means pivoting the business or maybe, hey, you know what? I tried this. It's okay. It didn't work. I'm gonna go try something else or I'm gonna go back into the corporate world for a while until I figure it out. All that's okay. It's all part of the journey. There's no wrong decisions on those things.
00:53:27
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. It feels very stoic or Buddhist in the sense that it's not right or wrong. And I also, I think my wife turned me on to this podcast that was by Abby Wambach's wife, who was talking about quitting and how it had this really negative connotation in American society today.
00:53:44
Speaker
But the origin of the word, the etymology of that word is much more about freeing yourself up for the next thing. And if you're not making space for that next thing, how are you going to move beyond certain impasses? So I think that's really strong.
00:54:00
Speaker
Really, that's a great, great point to end on, Bill. Again, I really appreciate this time. I know for myself, we've had quite a few interactions over the last year. I can certainly let you know, Bill is not only does he do good work, but he's very efficient with that. He'll say, you know, set expectations and then always come back usually later that evening and have some work to review. And I've really appreciated that in providing the service that you provide and just getting a chance to know you better and find some other fun things for us to discuss and
00:54:29
Speaker
perhaps see how many steps we can figure out in a day, sometime in the future would be a lot of fun. Yeah, that'd be a lot of fun. And I'll turn it back on you and say, you know, you've worked with a lot, I've worked with a lot of companies over the years, and you know, it's always about the partnership. And so, you know, there's, there's times when you and I kind of push back on each other on a particular topic, and that's the way it should be. And then at the end, you know, we reach agreement on something and we kind of move forward. And so I appreciate the business partnership on your end as well. Well, thank you very much, Bill. Alrighty.
00:54:58
Speaker
Thank you, Bill, for your time and joining us. And if anyone has any questions, please reach out webwell at cascadewebdev.com. We'd love to know what you think. Any future questions or topics, please send it there. Again, thank you. Yeah, I would just say finally, Bill, why don't you let us know if people are interested in learning more about your various ventures, where can they find you?
00:55:22
Speaker
So I'm on LinkedIn, Bill Piersnik, P-I-E-R-Z-N-I-K. MACRO Law, M-A-C-R-O-L-G, so L-G stands for law group. MACRO-L-G.com is the law firm. And then RESTORE.com is RESTORE Hyper Wellness. So that'll take you to the franchisor page. And then from there, you can navigate to our location in Eugene, which will be open in May. Fantastic. All right, well, thanks again. Until next time, everybody.
00:55:54
Speaker
you