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The WebWell Podcast E18 - Navigating Shifts in Digital Marketing
45 Plays8 months ago
Navigating Shifts in Digital Marketing: Mike Terry’s Journey from Retail to Marketing Ninja!
In this episode of the Web Well Podcast, Ben McKinley and Simon chat with special guest Mike Terry about the ever-evolving landscape of digital marketing. Mike shares insights from his extensive career, discussing the transition from traditional marketing roles into the digital space and his experiences at various agencies. They explore how personal and professional growth is vital in adapting to changes in the industry, and how continuous learning can help navigate the challenges of business development and client relationships. Join us for a candid discussion on making the most of opportunities and the importance of staying current in a rapidly changing field. Tune in for practical advice and stories from the frontline of digital marketing.
Email: Mike.T@CoreDigitalConsulting.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pdxadman/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coredigitalconsulting/
Please send your questions or comments to webwell@cascadewebdev.com We look forward to hearing from you!
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Transcript
Introduction and Reconnection
00:00:09
Speaker
Welcome back everyone to the Web Well podcast. I'm joined here again, as always, with Ben McKinley and our special guest today, Mike Terry. Welcome. Thanks. Good morning. Thank you, Simon. Yes. Excited to talk a little bit here with Mike. Invited him to the podcast several weeks ago when we reconnected after some time and really enjoyed reconnecting.
00:00:32
Speaker
and exploring, you know, what he's been up to as well as how we might collaborate to serve some clients in the future. So Mike, yeah, thank you for joining us here on the well-built podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited. You know, I feel a little jealous. My background isn't as well curated as both of yours, but that's a working process.
00:00:52
Speaker
There we go, there we go. Yeah, this was, I've shared this, I think already, but this is an overbuilt garden shed in my backyard that during the pandemic, we kind of updated from just a holding location for yard implements to some study space for the girls. But at the time, while they were still working and doing homework here at the house, we didn't have very reliable internet. So they pretty much never used it. And then it was built in sort of a Bohemian she shed vibe.
Career Beginnings and Transitions
00:01:21
Speaker
uh according to their their uh particulars and then as they went back to school I found my way out here and it's been a great place to work um you know get away from the dining room table a little bit in our our work from home realities here so yeah it's uh it's been fun to kind of dial this thing in uh but Mike let's talk a little bit about gosh our relationship I
00:01:42
Speaker
I think that you came on my radar when you were running sales with Anvil Media and Kent Lewis. And I noticed in taking a look there at LinkedIn that you'd been there for about nine years. And then looking back on your history, I noticed you kind of started off on the client side of things with
00:02:03
Speaker
unified grocers and then jumped into the agency side and kind of made your way through a variety of folks before landing and kind of locking in for an extended period there at Anvil. But I'd just like to learn more about your story. You seem very much like a Portland area guy. And I noticed you went to Portland State. But why don't you just take a little bit of time and share with us your story and how you found yourself in this digital marketing business development role.
00:02:30
Speaker
Yeah, you bet. Thanks for asking, Ben. I'm Portland born and raised in Portland, Oregon. I actually grew up in Gresham. And anytime people hear of Gresham, they're like, oh, a little cringy. But I grew up towards Mount Hood in the shadow of Mount Hood Community College on the very east side of Gresham, growing up out there and graduated from Gresham High School. Everything has changed a lot since then. But when I was going to college,
00:02:59
Speaker
I was working at Fred Meyer Grocers and when I was going to school and putting myself through school, working the swing shift three to 11 at Fred Meyers. And so when I graduated from college, I think the most humbling moment of my life was, okay, here I just graduated from Portland State University.
00:03:17
Speaker
I get double majored in marketing and advertising management. Thought I was like, hey, I'm super smart. I'm thinking this of myself. And I wasn't like, hey, here I am. But the next day I'm at Fred Meyers and I'm counting bottles and cans. And I'm stocking the shelf. And it's like, there's the humility of what real life is. So I still had rent to pay.
00:03:40
Speaker
And I had goals to eventually get into the agency world, but the jobs available back then in the late 90s, the best opportunity for me was client side working at groceries.
00:03:56
Speaker
Yeah, well, that's cool. It reminds me of my experience a little bit. I grew up in Southern Oregon and went to South Medford High School, but I ended up at Lewis and Clark College, played football and pursued my interest there. Kind of a lot of unnecessary abuse to my brain for four more years. But I remember when I got ready to graduate, I went over to the
00:04:15
Speaker
I walked into the career services office and I'm like, all right, check me out.
Navigating Marketing Careers
00:04:19
Speaker
I got this piece of paper. I graduated career services. Where do I go? What's what's next for me? You know, put me in touch with some folks. I want to do some interviews thinking I had like a booking agent or something. And they looked at me and thought, well, you can go to the school of.
00:04:34
Speaker
education, you can go to the law school, you can go to this, you know, social services graduation program, et cetera. And I'm like, oh, you're just trying to grow your customer here. I'm ready to get out and do some things. So I can relate to that, that kind of rude awakening of, you know, you have this perspective going in that when you come out, it's going to be all these opportunities and, you know, company cars and, and, uh, you know, all these budgets that you can work with and then, uh, to be released to the wild. Sometimes that can be a rude awakening.
00:05:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's not like I'm a D1 prospect from high school and it's like, Oh, I got three hats in front of me where I'm going to choose where I'm going to go, where I'm going to work. I'm like, Oh, I'm going to choose Intel or Nike or, or Columbia sportswear. It's like, no, you got to pound the pavement.
00:05:16
Speaker
Back in those days, you had to mail your resume and work hard to get interviews. That's how I ended up on the client side at the time. It was United Grocers. It has been acquired many times and it's unified Grocers now, but I was advertising manager for Thriftway Supermarkets. It's bizarre. I'm helping doing grand openings for stores.
00:05:38
Speaker
i'm twenty four years old i'm i'm head of the ad committee of the all these. Grizzled store owners who you know hate me because i'm young hit me because i am college educated and i call you don't have any experience my cake you know what. I was working for five years at stock and shells the grocery stores i know how to build in caps i know instead of having doritos on your end cap if you sold your own private label and.
00:06:01
Speaker
Merchandise around it. You're gonna make more money on your on your sales and and it's my job with with coupons and sales to bring people to your store and you merchandise around it to make your money and Some of them were first generation. They get it. They got it. They had the the you know Firepower to try and get these things going but some of them were second and third generation like ah Then my dad did all this stuff and it's like out there doesn't know living off of what they had done. So I'd seen generally generationally how
00:06:30
Speaker
People can lose their fire if they just inherit the business versus creating it from scratch and that was that was interesting and then and then when i was there for about a year and a half you can only sell no thanksgiving turkeys one or two years ago get this is done there's nothing new to do here so i'm always kept an eye to the ad game.
00:06:51
Speaker
and then up getting my first ad job in the late 90s at Grady Britain as a project manager. And so I'm like, okay, if, you know, out of the focus of the camera here, everything looks great, but I got things all over the place. So, you know, being a project manager wasn't an innate skill. Obviously, you got to go through hoops to go through college, but I became on as a project manager for the Freightliner account.
00:07:15
Speaker
And that was an interesting experience. So I had to interview with the agency president, had to interview with my supervisor. And I also had to interview with the client. Interesting. Because they were trying to create kind of a retail flyer, similar to what I was doing at Thriftway for the truck industry. And so I was bringing that experience, which was odd, I thought. But I came on board and helped manage that project.
00:07:41
Speaker
for a year and a half. And then as things continue to evolve in the ad world and in the Portland ad world, then the dot coms came on board.
00:07:50
Speaker
And I was recruited to work at a branding agency working on San Francisco.coms at around 2000 and then working at a B2B agency. So learn, okay, what's the difference between working with deep B2B and consumer.coms and then working at the design agency and a direct mail agency. So as I was going through, I'd stay at a place about a year and a half and then get recruited out, but I'm learning things along the way.
00:08:18
Speaker
And part of my path was when I was in college, the professors would say, here's the text. I'm like, OK, but I'd be reading Adweek when I'm a junior and senior in college, reading their recommended books. So I was always trying to read up because I had a passion for it. I loved it. Just being able to do marketing was great. And I remember when I was in elementary school,
00:08:42
Speaker
My mom would give me my lunch money. And so on my way to school, I'd stop at plant pantry, take my lunch money, buy all of all the candy. And then I then at lunchtime, I'd sell the candy to my classmates to make money. And then and then I would profit and and buy my lunch. And so I did that for a number of time. And I never shared that with my folks. So I had kind of an entrepreneurial marketing spirit. And so it just carried on. And so that's how I kept doing that.
00:09:12
Speaker
Well, tell us Mike, I guess that's really interesting to hear about a couple of things. One, the one question I'd start with is, you know, as you mentioned, and I observed this in LinkedIn, that there was kind of a year and a half, less than two years at a lot of these stops along the way. And you mentioned getting recruited out. That's one thing that Simon and I spend a fair amount of time discussing is, you know, oftentimes when there is a change in leadership in the marketing department, or if it's a technical person,
00:09:41
Speaker
that oftentimes that new leader comes in, the CMO, let's say, chief marketing officer and one of the first orders of business is like, get rid of the website, we're doing a new project. Partly, I don't know, maybe it's a little disparaging, but it's almost like they create this project that has a year and a half runway
00:10:01
Speaker
year runway and then, you know, kind of like protects their position.
Job-Hopping and Agency Dynamics
00:10:05
Speaker
And then it's so rare anymore that people do stick around for more than two, two and a half years. But you're saying in your situation, it wasn't so much that, I mean, I don't know how much of that did you feel like, you know, you didn't want to kind of collect moss in any one location, need to keep moving as compared to the opportunities kept presenting themselves and they were too good to pass up.
00:10:24
Speaker
Well, that's a great question. It's interesting because in that day and age, you didn't have an annual review. They wouldn't say, OK, here's your annual review or here's your six month review. Oh, here's how you're doing, Mike. Here's your goal. Here's how you can achieve a new salary level. So that never happened because these are independent companies. These aren't corporate structures where sometimes at an Intel or Nike, you'll be structured and you'll get these, you know,
00:10:50
Speaker
annual raises. It wasn't like that. These are independent companies. So in order to get the next rank on the account service team or to get a raise, I would say, hey, you know, I've been, you know, be able to close this business, been able to do this type of work. And then they're like, oh, okay, well, we're not going to have a raise for you. Oh, okay. So then there'll be other people who were like, okay, well, I see you're killing it on this when you want to come work for our agency. And I'm like, of course, because that's the opportunity.
00:11:18
Speaker
So in order to get the next rung on the ladder or to get a promotion or get that raise that you've been working hard for, you had to jump ship. And so it was actually, my thrift way days, there was an account manager who worked at Gerber Advertising, was my account guy when I was a thrift way, he's probably 15 years my senior, he eventually became a director of account services at B2B agency in town and he recruited me. And it was like, hey,
00:11:47
Speaker
I need a senior AE. Why don't you come on board?" I'm like, done. And that's how it was, and that's how my career progressed. And then I was working at a design firm and they're like, hey, you can come on as account director. I was like a senior AE at the time. I'm like, great. But you know what? You need to close a lot of business for us.
00:12:08
Speaker
I'm like, okay. And one of the, you know, here I am, you know, bright eyed and bushy tail, like, yeah, I can do that. Well, I didn't know what their actual revenue was. I didn't know that the goal that they had achieved was like 125% of what they made the previous year. And so, but I had, um, I had a bonus structure where if I hit this number, I would, I would hit a nice bonus, which was, uh, almost equal to my salary. So I'm like, okay, I'm young and dumb enough. I'll go and do this.
00:12:35
Speaker
And so rolled up my sleeves, did the outreach, did lots of re-engagement, find out exactly which relationships they have with existing clients. So they have open POs without any of the open giant corporations in town, and let's re-engage. And so I helped them. We brought on some new brands. We won some RFPs. I hit that goal. I exceeded that goal. And then at the end of the day, I didn't get my bonus. And so I had to take off.
00:13:05
Speaker
wow that doesn't that's so well that's interesting because ben you and i have this theory that like it's uh it's an age or demographic thing right like we were saying it's like millennials they coming in and jumping from job to job to climb that ladder but what i'm hearing mike say it's really industry it's like it's it's just marketing it's it's design it's it's that kind of field where it's like
00:13:30
Speaker
They're looking, I don't want to say direct poaching, but they're they're looking at building teams and developing this. So they take someone that was here that was doing really well and just kind of like transitioning them into another role or another position where you and I are thinking it's like an age, right?
00:13:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the other way that I'm interpreting that is that, you know, I've got obviously a lot of humility of how challenging it is to run an agency. And I've seen plenty of good folks leave and I didn't really know why. But the other thing I heard Mike say is that there wasn't like this path that said you're here and you can move in these ways.
00:14:07
Speaker
continue to expand your capabilities so that so instead if you're feeling like ma'am in project management role i'm not get any feedback whether it's twenty twenty or twenty two thousand still feedbacks great and i'm not getting any of that and if i'm gonna make some moves myself i've gotta go somewhere else because there's there's nothing here for me.
00:14:27
Speaker
And that's one thing I've learned in some cases, the hard way in other cases, it's just like, there's only so much you can do when you're a, you know, a five, 10, 20 person agency in terms of creating those opportunities for someone who's, you know, upwardly mobile and motivated to get there. And then certainly if they're making promises, they're not keeping on something as core as the transactional nature of compensation. It's hard to breed any loyalty whatsoever in those situations.
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing that you're always trying, you got to keep an eye, look over your shoulder is where's the agency's business and how are they managing it? How are things going? So the dot coms obviously came and went. And so that, you know, devastatedly hit the agency that I was working at. And that was a great agency. I would be working there six months like, oh, here, Mike, there's another raise. I'm like, what?
00:15:16
Speaker
Oh, here's another six months. Here's another race. And so that went well, but then until dot coms didn't exist anymore. Right. So, you know, as you progress and you, you know, try and understand exactly where is the business going. So that would always keep my head on a swivel to say, okay, focus on helping these clients. But also, you know, I got to make sure I'm going to be gainfully unemployed and being in an account management role.
00:15:41
Speaker
I always read Adweek, I always read David Ogilvie, Confessions of an Advertising Man, which I think is a great book to read, very inspirational, at least it was for me. And one article that I kept in a folder for years, probably 15 years, was an article in Adweek was about the most important account you will manage is your career.
00:16:01
Speaker
and talked about, you know, that was kind of my, my North star is to, okay, here's what you need to be looking for to make sure you're progressing in not just, you know, taking care of the clients, but, but learning and bringing more value to that relationship. And that started back in the old days of a freight liner, where we'd look at the industry pubs. And back in the back in those days, putting my grandpa hat on, you'd, you'd fax over these articles, you know, before there were hot links to email them.
00:16:29
Speaker
But you're trying to add value and say, here's what your competitors are doing. We should see what we can do to add this program to be in the same space because they're all going from the same target audience. And so that's, as I was recruited to these agencies, eventually I ended up working at Anvil. Again, back to a relationship with Kent where we worked together at a B2B agency in 2001, 2002.
00:16:55
Speaker
And when the time came, he's like, hey, I need a VP to help with operations, help mainly with new business, maybe help bring and retain talent. And he gave me a call and we went to lunch, went to dinner, actually, and signed the contract and went off to the races.
Business Development Strategies
00:17:13
Speaker
Wow. I imagine that was a nice culmination of all of those previous roles because I presume that there was a fair amount of incentive-based compensation with that role as well as, you know, like you said, operations and then being able to dive into some of the specific disciplines as well within the book of business. Yeah.
00:17:35
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I never really noticed when I had the one one job where I was account director, business development director at a design firm, I always had my always looking to say, hey, I want to get this client. I want to work with this client. And in order to work with that client, you need to make contacts and to understand what the business is, see what's not getting served and then make contact. And I always had that curiosity like I want to work for that brand. I want to work with that brand. And why aren't they doing this? Why aren't they doing that? So I always had that natural curiosity.
00:18:05
Speaker
And didn't realize that that i was in hunting mode for as a business developer that i want to do this and you know going back to my days the first agency i come across things i would send it to my boss. And then when when he eventually left the agency he went through the windows new business folder like hey look this is emails from mike.
00:18:27
Speaker
You know, those were his leads, were things that I sent him. So it just, that continued to progress and realize that it's a relationship, relationships you make and this the outreach and to generally try and help somebody. And so I never see myself, I never saw myself as, hey, I'm a sales guy.
00:18:45
Speaker
because I'm a marketing guy. I went to Portland State, got these fancy degrees, but I'm all about trying to solve problems for clients and be upfront. Hey, if I can't solve your problem, then I'll recommend you to someone who I think can and be more authentic to that.
00:19:03
Speaker
That's interesting. So as you mentioned that notion of hunting, we use that comparison a lot, hunting versus farming. And so, I mean, I think it's tough to farm much in this business unless you've successfully hunted, right? But I don't know, where do you find, I guess, do you
00:19:23
Speaker
do you consider yourself more of a hunter or more of a farmer? And I don't know, there's been a lot of discussion over the years too about the, it's a different mindset that's out there hunting as compared to farming. And I get the sense that you're pretty effective at both.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, you have to do both. You can't just farming, you know, you have to build up your reputation, your business, your backlinks, your history, where then you're farming. So inbound is coming in. So like, okay, I don't have to go and hunt because I've done all these projects. I've made all these relationships. Some of these things are more organic. I'm getting inbound. That's really hard to establish.
00:19:59
Speaker
You know, just to start your business, you have to go hunting. You know, I read where the suckers moon, the story of widening Kennedy and they started their business on April 1st, 1982 and Nike gave them the opportunity and they seized it and then they went out and they pitched Honda scooters and they, and they won that business. And then as they progressed, they went and they pitched and they won Subaru.
00:20:20
Speaker
Because they were an unknown entity. They had to go and hunt. And that's how you create your own destiny. David Ogilvie, he was a door-to-door salesman. He worked in a French kitchen in France. And so he learned these things over time. And then he said, OK, well, I'm going to get Sears, because I'll wear their suits. I put shell gas in my car, so I'm going to go get Shell as a client. He went and did it.
00:20:47
Speaker
You know, he hunted, he didn't say, well, I'm just going to sit back and maybe they'll notice my advertising. No, he went out and over time, you can say he was farming, but he was hunting and he got those accounts and you need to do both. And, you know, there's a lot of attention put on social selling.
00:21:04
Speaker
whether it's on LinkedIn or whatnot. Sometimes people see that, sometimes don't, but I've never put out a piece of content and all the times I've used LinkedIn and someone says, here's a PO, let's get working. It's part of the farming process. Some of them might say, okay, over time, but you have to ask for the business.
00:21:20
Speaker
No one's going to give it to you. And that's what people seem to think, like, oh, well, they've seen my, they opened my email, they clicked on my link. They liked my post. So why aren't they giving me business? Because you have to ask for it. And well, first you have to give them a reason and then you have to earn it. And then you have to ask for it. And that's never going to change.
00:21:41
Speaker
Right. Interesting. Well, that's really cool to get your background and learn a little bit more about Mike Terry. So thank you for sharing some of that information. I guess I'd be curious. You've alluded to some of this already, but when you think back about how it started, I know for me when I started Mounted Software with my partner who was 16 years my senior,
00:22:03
Speaker
and took interest in me and said, hey, I can build websites. I'll keep teaching you how to sell because I used to work underneath him at a technology trade show company before I graduated college.
00:22:14
Speaker
And we were off and running. And fortunately, I saved a couple thousand bucks in the bank. That was it. I had a $14 a week food budget. I had less than $300 a month rent that I had to pay and was living lean, totally dirt bagging it. But it was smiling and dialing out of the yellow pages, the actual physical yellow pages on a computer that was donated to me from Tigard High School, where I was the ski coach. So very humble beginnings and just not really strategic.
00:22:43
Speaker
And then to think fast forward to today and no longer using fax machines and a whole lot more of these types of remote meetings as compared to getting in the car and driving around town and sitting with people. I guess I'd be curious to hear what your unique approach that you've kind of landed at now.
Starting Core Digital Consulting
00:23:04
Speaker
So yeah, fast forward. I guess let's first take a step back.
00:23:08
Speaker
You were at Dexia for nine plus years. Dexia, previously Anvil, merged or sold to Dexia. And then talk to us about how you got from that role at Dexia to starting Core. Okay, well.
00:23:22
Speaker
That's an interesting story. Obviously, the agency was sold to Dexia in March of 2022 and then with that transition, I think this is an opportunity for me to see what else is out there.
00:23:38
Speaker
I stayed at anvil for nine years. One, I appreciated working with Kent and the challenges and the solutions that we kept providing, but also it was stable for raising my family. I was able to, raising four boys, I was able to be a baseball coach, I was able to be there for almost everything they ever did in school because of the flexibility that
00:23:59
Speaker
You know, Kent gave me and so I'm forever grateful for that. And that was, you know, a deliberate decision to stay there to be the best father I could be and to be there and present for him. So I saw that as that opportunity came with the sale, like, okay, well, let's see what's out there. And so we're coming out of COVID and remote work is a real thing.
00:24:19
Speaker
And I wasn't sure what I was going to do and I reached out to some recruiters and all of a sudden someone with 15 years of digital marketing experience doing a business development, I had multiple offers and opportunities to work remotely for other agencies. And so I ended up working with an agency based out of New York while I was working remote on the business development team.
00:24:42
Speaker
And in a role where I was a sole contributor, just mean it was just me. I was contributing to others. I didn't have a team underneath me. I didn't have an executive role. And that was how to give me a lot of freedom, you know, just to like, OK, then I'll focus on what I can do and what I can do best. And that was I relish that opportunity.
00:25:01
Speaker
As they were going through on their side, on the account side, they kept continuing to lose clients, which was unfortunate. So the agency was downsizing and downsizing and I lost my direct supervisor, then I lost the SVP. And so it turns out it was myself and one other person on the business development team.
00:25:20
Speaker
And the replacement they brought in was several years my junior was just like, OK, I'm looking at the right on the wall saying, OK, I'm closing deals, but I'm probably have a different compensation package than the new team. And so I ended up closing a really good sized deal. And then I got out of nowhere. Oh, hey, Mike, let's have a one on one tomorrow. I'm like, oh, OK.
00:25:48
Speaker
I know what that means. And so you've all seen the meme probably with Joe Pesci from Goodfellas when he's like walking into that room. It's like, oh yeah, when you get that invite from HR and your boss. And so that's what it was. And so I ended up leaving the agency in the middle of June last year to June of 23. And then I thought, OK.
00:26:10
Speaker
what should i do you know this is an opportunity for me to do hang my own shingle which i've always thought about doing and then i started getting clients and former clients and referrals coming to me say hey we want to work with you we want to do some of these projects and so i'm like okay i
00:26:27
Speaker
So let's put a pin in that I got to create a business first and then went on a six week cross country tour with my wife who's a teacher. So we had the summer off to drive around the country and then kind of clear my head not worry about jumping on a zoom call or whatever I had to do and then got back in August and you know created the brand and started started working.
00:26:48
Speaker
And it's
Consulting Approach and Management
00:26:49
Speaker
it's been it's been awesome it's been challenging it's been frustrating but it's it's continues to go on with you know you gotta you gotta keep working hard you gotta those days off as an entrepreneur as you know.
00:27:04
Speaker
Just reworking relationships with networking and doing everything i can to okay let's see what value i can do and i have more meetings where i'm like okay this is what you should do but here's a free solution you know it's there's more opportunities for to pass on wisdom and good advice to prospects.
00:27:23
Speaker
Like here's what you can do for now because yeah, we can do a website or we can do this or we can do that. But there's some other things you can do, which will be more affordable now. And then when you get to the stage, then maybe we can work together or maybe you can refer someone to me in the future. It's just, it's not about the now. It's about creating that relationship and then maybe it'll cultivate. So maybe it goes back to that farming analogy.
00:27:46
Speaker
but it's all about trying to make good on those initial relationships and make a good connection so that, okay, well, maybe in the future they won't work with me now, but maybe they can send me a referral. Yeah, absolutely. That's something Simon and I talk about. Well, we do a lot of audit services for mainly our existing clients, but also we found that's a nice way to initially engage with the new prospect is just to, hey, let us kind of get eyes on what you got.
00:28:13
Speaker
Give you an honest assessment of third party objective assessment of where you stand relative to security or accessibility or google page speed insights and and even designing content which is a little more subjective but you know oftentimes we're in conversations like what what don't they need right like that i find that that's a such a great way to build trust is like.
00:28:32
Speaker
hey, here's some things either A, we've identified it, we don't think there's really anything to do about it, or B, instead of giving them some kind of a paid opportunity, instead, like here's some actionable insights that you can run with. And like you said, transfer that wisdom over, empower them to do some things. And it's amazing how being genuine in delivering value without, you know, any reciprocity expected. I mean, that's just Relationships 101. So
00:28:57
Speaker
Right. That seems fascinating to me. Well, you know, that's a nice segue into the next topic here, which is just exploring your unique approach. So with Core, I mean, I know how tough it is with six of us here at Cascade and our various functions to deliver, you know, reliably high quality solutions, but talk to us as a
00:29:17
Speaker
you know, as the the I believe you're essentially a solopreneur there with with core and then you've got this network of providers. But what does that balance look like in terms of, you know, what your role is with a project as I think about, you know, the business development, the account management, the project management, you know, building the teams, managing the teams, you know, deploying the solution, etc. I'd love to hear how you how you balance all those priorities.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah. So that's a great question because you've been through it, you've done it, you're doing it now. And, you know, as a solopreneur looking at, you know, how do I run these things? So going back to that first job that I got at, you know, Grady Britain on the, on the agency side was a project manager. So I know how to run projects and, you know, having 20 plus years of account management, I'm always working with either five to 10 to 15 clients in my role at, at,
00:30:11
Speaker
Anvil or Dexia, you know, I was doing business development I was no so you have your pipeline of 10 to 20 leads that you're having in constant contact with plus I know I was We'd have turnover so I would try and manage accounts when they landed so we could get payouts So that you know, it's make them stickier. So I'm managing five to ten accounts. So
00:30:32
Speaker
So then when I open the doors for core, I'm like, I've been doing this for years. I've been doing this for decades. I've been running projects. I've been managing accounts. And now it's like, okay, what about the work? What about the SEO work? What about the design work? And having worked at all these different agencies over the years, I have awesome relationships with all the creative teams and tech teams that can do this work. And so through those relationships, I'm like, Hey, you know,
00:30:57
Speaker
know, XYZ or, you know, here Jane or Joe, you know, is this here's the project I have? Is this something you can do? Give me a scope of work and then, you know, send that out. Get an SOW signed and they're, they're at 1099 and I'm running it on point like I normally always have, you know, giving them, giving the client a brief for whatever that is.
00:31:18
Speaker
And that's just an innate skill. And then running those projects to completion, always the challenge, my challenge is the bookkeeping part of like, okay, make sure I'm sending out my invoices, make sure I'm getting paid. But running those, and then there's probably at least one day a week, I don't just dedicate one day a week, but a couple hours of each day during the week.
00:31:40
Speaker
Where I'll go and do business development where I'm you know, okay I'm intently putting together content for my for core. I am you know reaching out to try and get contacts I'm going and networking in person and you know doing the things that I had always done and was successful doing you know, I went to a Business journal power breakfast once when I was working at a brand ad agency where small firm five to ten people I went there and
00:32:08
Speaker
It was a, no. Business Journal Power Breakfast, Sid Dabour, the owner at the time of Lithium Motors, was giving us, he was the key speaker. And so afterwards, I went up there, hey, Mr. Dabour, I'm Mike Taram with Magneto Brand Advertising. Here's our book. We would like to work with you.
00:32:24
Speaker
And he's like, well, I'll have my, my VPN marketing contact deal. I'm like, okay, I've heard that many times. Um, but I got a call the next day and, and they gave us, I think it was a $6,500 project to run. And I'm like, okay, my, my power breakfast for the rest of my life are going to be paid for it because they're like 30 bucks a pop. So, right. Right.
00:32:45
Speaker
And again, reassured that you have to ask for the business, you have to put yourself out there. And like many times I've talked to many people and they're like, okay, thanks, I'll send something to you and they don't. But that's, you don't boo-hoo about it, you keep moving. And that's the thing about being in business development, being in advertising, whether you're on the creative side like you are Simon, you create a concept or you have a great idea and the client is gonna go for it.
00:33:14
Speaker
And so you're like, okay, well, then let's make sure we're focusing on what are the core objectives and we'll do something else. But you got to keep persevering and moving on. And that's the way, you know, just from my mindset of to be doing it and to keep doing the at bats. You got to keep moving forward and not get discouraged because it's a numbers game at the end of the day. You got to keep swinging the bat or you're not going to get that hit.
00:33:40
Speaker
Yeah, interesting. A lot there. But I appreciate hearing it. It sounds like certainly time management, you know, being very intentional about how you chunk up your week and your day. So you make sure that you're not only focused on the here and now, but you're keeping an eye on the future to make sure that you've got that that work coming back, whether it's in farming mode, taking care of existing clients or getting out there and trying to find the next clients as attrition happens. I guess I'm curious, too, you know, over the years,
00:34:07
Speaker
You hear a lot of agencies and i think by definition an agency is not someone that's got everybody on w two is it someone that works on your behalf to bring together resources in many cases and plenty of agencies out there are are eager to appear bigger than they are you know relative to the number of full time employees they have.
00:34:27
Speaker
And so I guess I'm curious, we've always kind of gone with being overly transparent of like, here's what we do, this is our sweet spot. And then we've got, you know, this collection of providers that are adjacent to us in complimentary that we bring in our projects as compared to trying to claim, hey, these are all of our people. So I guess I'm curious, are you finding more success or do you tend to go
00:34:52
Speaker
hey, we're, you know, core as an agency and kind of white label stuff, or is it a little bit more like, hey, this is a subject matter expert they've been doing as long as I have in this narrow field and letting them run a little bit more, you know, client facing.
00:35:06
Speaker
It's a little bit of both because I'm transparent in that, okay, I have a team on my website. These are guys and gals I've been working with for 10 to 15 years and they've been doing these projects with me. Like Zach and Michael, I've been working with them since 05. I've taken them to like four or five different agencies that I've worked with and so I've legitimately worked with them
00:35:27
Speaker
for 19 years. But they're subject matter experts. And so I'm like, okay, here's the core team because I don't say overtly they're 1099s, but I'm like, these are the people I bring to the party. But when I'm having one-on-ones, I'm like, well, I'll reach out to my network. I have plenty of XYZ experts. And because you're working with me, you're not paying full agency rates. I'm in my home. I'm not renting space.
00:35:53
Speaker
but it's not a value cell. It's like, hey, I'm going to bring the best solution from these experienced people that have been doing this for 20 plus years. And so I'm transparent and like, hey, this is too big for me. I'm going to refer you to somebody else. Or this isn't really my area of expertise. I will refer you to someone else. So I am someone who's been doing this for a long time. I know
00:36:16
Speaker
through my own opinion and my own filters, who's good at all these different facets of marketing. And I'll get that client to the right place where they're gonna be happy. And that's the end goal. And if I can get some business, that's fine. But at the end of the day, they're struggling to find some solutions. And I'm not gonna say, well, hey, I can fumble through this. No, I'm not gonna use chat GPT or any of these other tools out there that can be wielded for good or evil. I'm gonna put them in the right place for someone who can take care of them, because that's what they want.
00:36:46
Speaker
And we've all been through this collective thing called COVID. We've been through enough grief. I'm not there to put anyone else through any other grief. Yeah, that's interesting. I hear a number of things there and certainly that notion of being honest that you don't carry a lot of the bloat, so you can certainly offer a higher quality service. But I've also positioned it in the past and
00:37:12
Speaker
and it served us well where we don't have all these subject matter experts that are on a W-2 because gosh, then all of a sudden you say you see yourself putting forward in front of the client services they might not need because you've got to pay you know that person's salary and their benefits and you know try and get them to their bonus that year as compared to focusing on that core and then having those other
00:37:34
Speaker
you know, relationships available. And of course, at the end of the day, the client cares, it's not really their concern, what kind of incentive situation you have with your partners, they just want to get that value done. And I also hear a lot of clients saying, gosh, I don't want to manage a bunch of different contracts and a bunch of different contractors. Like if I trust you, Mike, and no, you're going to bring, you know, the the skills to bear when I need them. Fantastic.
00:37:57
Speaker
Um, and I guess one of the question we've, have you have, have you ever experimented with the idea of not only white labeling folks, but in some cases we've experimented with some clients and said, Hey, you need paid search. Great. I hear you now. Um,
00:38:12
Speaker
I've got do you find yourself saying here's who I recommend or have you ever experimented with here are two or three providers that are all slightly different why don't you go talk to them I mean I think that gets more into like the direct handoff mode as compared to building a team and delivering a solution itself but any thoughts there.
00:38:30
Speaker
Yeah, so there's a couple options. So, you know, coming right out of anvil dexia and code three where it was all digital marketing for the last 11 years. So I'm well versed. I know everyone who can do all these things and they've all spun off and are solopreneurs or entrepreneurs. And so I have the option to either can white label them or can just hand them off. And so if someone is saying, hey, I just need this one thing.
00:38:53
Speaker
I don't need any of the marketing strategy or the development or messaging that you can provide, Mike. I just need something. I'm one of this one-off solutions. So I'll go. I'll make intros. Here are three people that I work with. I have great confidence that can help you achieve your goals.
00:39:10
Speaker
And here you go. But if we're going to package things, then I'm like, okay, then we'll white label it. But you're going to be working directly with Nick, or you're going to be working directly with Sally. And they're under my umbrella, they're my team, but they're going to have a different email address. They're going to provide their expertise. But the value to you is you're getting this robust, super experienced team
00:39:35
Speaker
and not paying huge agency prices. And I'm more than happy to set endros so that clients are okay, but clients have enough challenges on the client side that they don't want, to your point, they don't want to manage a bunch of different contractors.
00:39:49
Speaker
And at the end of the day, they want this all to roll up. So if it's a PPC or paid social, it's like, OK, well, we can create a core dashboard. And we can just roll it under there. And you can roll that dashboard up to your superior. So that's easier to manage. I also had an example recently where I was referred a client that was going through a challenge. And they're like, hey, we need some copywriting. We need some web. So we need all these things. I'm like, OK, well, let me know when you're ready to go. And we're going back and forth. And I'm just like, you know what?
00:40:17
Speaker
this, I don't have the extensive time available to troubleshoot all this. So I'm just going to give you the context rec. So here's the here's a copywriter who is awesome. Here's the web person who was awesome, worked with them directly. And, you know, they'll take care of you. And they're like, Oh, wow. Okay. And they've been two months off to the races. And they're doing their own thing. And so under my model, I'm like, well, I could have kept them under my umbrella and did some markup and white level them. But
00:40:43
Speaker
the client has been through enough. So I'm like, these are some awesome people that I know will will kill it for you. So here, you know, take this and hopefully your life is better because you don't need to deal with the agency bloat, which you said was I love that word. Awesome. Simon, I think you had a question in there somewhere.
00:41:01
Speaker
Yeah, Mike, so I just picture this. So having recently built a home, you're like a GC, right? In a lot of ways where like, you're a general contractor, you have your subs under. And I think from a client perspective, and maybe you could speak to this, a client perspective, quite frankly, I didn't care who the subs were. I just trusted and put my trust and faith in the GC.
00:41:27
Speaker
that they trusted their subs, right? So I think my question ultimately is one, I applaud that model. I think that's awesome. I think that works, right, to avoid the bloat or excess.
00:41:43
Speaker
folks on a call. I mean we've been on calls with like 15 people for a project and like it just it baffles me when we have like five total employees. What are what are some of the barriers though with having I'm going to use the word subs right subcontractors under you or 1099s. What are some of the barriers that you faced you know just with communication or project
00:42:07
Speaker
timelines, anything like that. What is something that you've kind of had to overcome with that too?
00:42:16
Speaker
I think the biggest overcome isn't the communication because doing account management, when I talk to a creative team or to a dev team and they're like, oh yeah, I'll get it by Monday. I'm like, okay, I tell the client they'll have it by Friday. And then see where it is and nine times out of 10, Monday turns into two, zero Wednesday. And my original timeline of telling the client Friday hits. And so I've kind of a sixth sense of that. And if it was gonna move further, I would communicate that with the client.
00:42:44
Speaker
and never work with the timelines I'm given with anybody on my team. So the timeline hasn't been an issue. Setting up for client meetings is an issue, but it's the change orders and the time overages is an issue, where as an agency, everyone's running operations like, hey, this project, you need 10 hours. And like, oh, well, we spent 12 hours on it or 15 hours on it. Well, the agency will go, well, we'll either ask for a change order or we'll just write that time off.
00:43:12
Speaker
because someone has to fill out their timesheet and timesheets are fudged all over the world. But when I'm working with subs, like, hey, this was 10 hours, I told you it was 10, it's 15, and they tell me after I've already built the client, then there's a communication problem that I'm trying to navigate and see, okay, how is this going to work?
00:43:32
Speaker
Did I build enough margin in there? I'm not nickel and dime in the client because that's one of the reasons that they hired me in the first place was if there's a major change, there's obviously a change order, but I don't want to nickel and dime anybody because I hate that. It's a bane of my existence. That's the challenge of working with my subs or my 1099s or my team is like, tell me how much time you think it's going to cost and put in some buffer so that I can make sure I have a buffer on it so that
00:44:01
Speaker
These issues don't come up. And so that's more of an operations issue than than any type of communication. You know, I would say I'd give myself an Olympic gold or an Oscar or whatever just for my ability to navigate gymnastically. All of the challenges clients can throw at you and then also anything on the back end.
00:44:20
Speaker
that can go wrong.
Personal Life and Professional Influence
00:44:24
Speaker
I've worked at agencies where they just fired the whole dev team and the whole web team and they're like, hey, you got to go to this client and go sell the website. I'm like, but who's going to belt it? You don't have to worry about that. Your job is to sell it. I went, I sold that project and then I'm like,
00:44:41
Speaker
Then I left that agency because you have zero integrity. If something's happened, I've seen it. I've experienced it either in life or in the agency world. That's a long answer to your question, Simon. I think it's more on the operations side is where I have my shortfalls. That's him.
00:45:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting. I've told that story a number of times where, you know, I really enjoyed the game of football in high school and went on to play in college, but I realized, you know, and reflecting upon it, like I didn't ever know what the team was doing on a given play as an offensive lineman. We're supposed to be the smart ones, right?
00:45:22
Speaker
And i just i knew what what a certain number in the call meant for me to do but i know everyone else is doing around me and then fast forward all of a sudden i'm i'm in more of a quarterback role within the organization and seeing my team were asking them for for hey what's your eta i'm getting this back.
00:45:40
Speaker
and then having Simon and I talk about this a lot. It's like, oh, when you said Friday, did you mean Friday at 5? Did you mean Friday at 9 a.m.? Did you mean Friday at 7 p.m.? Because if I tell the client your time, and I don't, and I'm not specific, and then it turns out your Friday turned into a Monday at 5, and then I've got to manage those expectations, to your point earlier, like, okay, we've got to build in that buffer in terms of timelines. You got to build in that buffer in terms of budgets.
00:46:10
Speaker
And another big challenge we've had over the years is what a friend of mine who was in the SEO space for years used to call the retriever syndrome. He's like, Hey, Ben, you and your team love you. You got the tail wagging your tongue hanging out. We got you. We can do it. But then, you know, how are you, if you're overly optimistic, you're the one left having to deal with not enough time, not enough budget to, to sustain. And so, you know, how are you going to manage that stuff going forward? So.
00:46:37
Speaker
Yeah, trying to avoid those situations where you over promise and under deliver, those can be some some tough lessons learned for sure. Yeah, so I'm curious. So I played when I was in high school, I was not a good football player, but I did play I was a left guard. What did you what did you play? I played offensive. I played left tackle, which was pretty important because every time the quarterback sacked, it was usually around my around my end.
00:47:02
Speaker
And then I played defensive end. And then in college, I played just on the defensive side of the ball. Always loved the idea of being a tight end, but I couldn't catch a cold. So that was never for me. And then my senior year, the three guys I played with the first three years graduated, so they moved me inside. So then I was messing it up with the, uh, the real big boys that used to just terrify me. But I really enjoyed that because once I, if I was successful in getting through the line, I had no responsibilities in terms of the end.
00:47:28
Speaker
I could just get in there and, you know, cause as much grief as possible. So yeah, really fun, fun memories, but it's hilarious now having raised two daughters and just being such a fan of doing things myself. I'm a pretty terrible football fan anymore. And it really does feel like literally and physically a lifetime ago.
00:47:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, because, you know, I, you know, started my junior year every game, but it was like, it was, it was awesome. I knew we had a running game and just being a pulling guard on the left side, it was awesome. You know, just, you know, running and hitting someone who didn't expect to see it. I just loved those days and just always had that mentality of, you know, you know, you have to have a certain mentality to play football and, you know, especially on the line. So that was one thing I enjoyed. And I think maybe that aggression, maybe that mentality
00:48:19
Speaker
maybe a little bit seeped over into doing biz dev i don't know yeah yeah well great well hey um that's a great segue into some some more stuff on the personal interest side uh raising four boys um talk to us about that as you mentioned you you coached uh you coached baseball for a number of years but did those boys find their way to the football field as well
00:48:39
Speaker
Um, no, they did not. I mean, my oldest, um, so backstory on my sons, you know, my wife and I, when we were, um, in our late thirties, we're trying to have kids and we could. And, um, so my wife's a kindergarten teacher and we said, well, maybe one day we'll foster.
00:48:57
Speaker
And so, you know, fast forward to 2012 and there was a group of four boys that were at her school that were about to be separated. And she's like, Hey, she's like, Hey, let me, um, you want to talk to their, I can talk to their counselor, um, their DHS person and see if we can adopt them. Um, she's like, should I do that? I'm like, sure. She's like, but there's four of them. I'm like,
00:49:17
Speaker
At that time, we had 10, 11, nieces, nephews. I'm like two, four, whatever. It's all the same. So she reached out to him. He met with her that day after school. And then I met with him the following day just with litany of questions of what you have to do. Long story short, we had to become foster parents before you could... And then we had to foster to adopt. So our goal the whole time was to adopt them. And so
00:49:44
Speaker
That's what we did. That started in March of 2012. They moved in in 4th of July weekend of 2012. So 4th of July is really special for my family. So when they came up, when we adopted them, there were seven, eight, nine and the boys, they're all boys and the boys are eight. So getting to your question, you know,
00:50:05
Speaker
much more athletic than I was, and him and just different body types. So, you know, they're more in agility sports. So track, tennis, baseball, my youngest played football, but, you know, super fast. But you know, this day and age, you know, when we played football, like, okay, you're big, you're big, kind of slow, you're offensive lineman. They're with them, like, hey, you're super, they're super fast, you can stop all the wide receivers. And like, he's like, No, I don't want to play defense, I want to be a wide receiver. And so then he quit.
00:50:34
Speaker
But they all turned into be awesome hand-eye coordination. Phenomenal baseball players played varsity three years each. When I was on the agency side, I was a softball coach for all the athlete teams I'd coached.
00:50:55
Speaker
Many times would be like 12 and one because of, you know, I played pickup or I played other leagues. And so I'd bring in my regular friends along with the agency friends and we'd always get to the finals. We only won once, but I loved coaching softball. And then when my oldest son became a junior, so he was actually a freshman, he was 13, 14 years old.
00:51:16
Speaker
They didn't have a coach. I'm like, oh, coach. And that was awesome. Most fun, I think, I've ever had in my life coaching that team. And that was a high school team? No, it was a little league team. But the junior age level was 13, 14-year-olds. So the year before, they only won one or two games. And so we turned around and we won 10 or 11 games. It was just stealing everything. It was awesome. He had probably had
00:51:45
Speaker
five or six home runs, probably had 30 stolen bases. We were just relentless. It was all about aggressive and just the numbers, all the analytics. I just loved it. Coach, all my voice through that. About six years, I was their baseball coach and I loved every minute of it. Then for a hot minute, I got to coach the high school teams for a tournament because they fired their baseball coach.
00:52:10
Speaker
The guy running the tournament's like, Hey, Mike, I love your style. Can you run this team? I'm like, absolutely. And so all three of my sons were playing on that team. So that was a father's day weekend. That was awesome. Wow. So yeah, so yeah, coaching baseball was totally awesome with them. And now that they're all out, we're going to look at two, you know, tackling the city softball league. So it's not, there'll be an epilogue.
00:52:34
Speaker
Well, that's a beautiful story, Mike, about fostering and adopting those boys. That's a way to turn something that, you know, we had quite a bit of trouble with our second born. And it just gave me such a huge level of humility and empathy for others that, you know, struggle when it comes to making a family, but way to turn that, you know, that disappointment and all the feelings into such a positive thing and creating that life for those boys.
00:52:59
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's it's one of those things where I just didn't think about we just did it and you know just because and it wasn't for you know, it was as well waiting for us as as it is for the trajectory of them and
00:53:14
Speaker
We just love them. They're just like our kids and never thought anything of it because when I was growing up, my bio dad died in an accident and so I was adopted by my stepdad when I was nine. Just a really weird blended backstory of my family, which is too much to share. I'm similar but different. To me, it was
00:53:41
Speaker
No thought at all. Just yeah, let's just do it. And so it's been how long is your how long has your wife been a elementary school teacher? Um, since 1999. So 25 years. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. My wife was was first and fifth.
00:53:58
Speaker
over a five-year span in the Canby School District before she came to work with us and we started our family. And yeah, it's been fascinating for her having very much this like DNA, this like wiring of a teacher, very non-risky, you know, risk averse and not one to really put herself out there in many ways, but
00:54:21
Speaker
but then also incredibly detail-oriented and just keeping everything really tight and so perfect for that controller role. But boy, without the guaranteed, it's not a big income, but the guaranteed benefits and income of her world when we were getting started, there's no way Cascade would have gotten off the ground given my capabilities and our willingness to take on risks. So it's really interesting to see how those different jobs can complement each other and create opportunities for families.
00:54:50
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, she now she teaches third grade this year for the first for the first time, she's always been a K K one teacher. And so that's been a change for her. But yeah, we're completely different. You know, we've I've been married, it'll be 28 years this year. So, you know, high school sweethearts, they're in each other forever. And just, you know, everything's been bulletproof, bombproof, you know, everyone has their ups and downs. But
00:55:14
Speaker
totally compliment to me where I'm more an extrovert and can be gregarious and she's very, you know, gives to herself, introverted, sweetest person you'll ever meet, but perfect compliment. And, you know, I think she would die in the world that I work and I think vice versa. It's like having to write, you know, daily plans and do all these things that she has to do on a meticulous level would just
Continuous Learning and Professional Advice
00:55:41
Speaker
drive me nuts. So we're a perfect compliment.
00:55:43
Speaker
Yeah, well, I mean, on the other hand, if you're up there having to perform every day in front of kindergartners and third graders, that's something too, I looked at my level of exhaustion that Christie used to come home with, you know, having to be on, you know, be up for that every day and then being in a community like Canby where there's a very significant migrant community.
00:56:03
Speaker
of Latinos and, and Russian community and, and seeing the very different cultural ways in which, you know, kids are treated. Um, that was one of the things that she, she had a little bit of hard time leaving behind each day, but it's really cool stuff. Well, cool. We'll kind of in looking to wrap this up in respect for your time here today, Mike. Um, you've mentioned some of your inspirations along the way with Ogilvy and that widening Kennedy book, or do you consider yourself still quite a reader or what, what do you do to continue to stay sharp and inspired in your work?
00:56:31
Speaker
I try and catch a webinar a week, maybe two or three a month just to see, okay, like right now with AI, what is AI? Everyone's panicked about AI and AI is a tool, not something to be feared, at least not yet. It's like, okay, the internet. Oh, the internet was the same thing. Everyone was afraid of the internet. Well, the internet just made everyone pivot. AI is going to do the same thing. The government will eventually get around to putting some guard rails on it.
00:56:59
Speaker
make it worse but in the meantime it's a tool that can be used and so trying to see what that is is all i know it's the buzzword it's been the buzzword like big data was buzz buzzwords seven eight years ago and big data has always been there and they just threw big data as the term on it and ai has hasn't always been there but there's always been something in the back that's similar to ai
00:57:20
Speaker
And so I'll go to a webinar a week or a few months and I'll try and read books. One of the books I'm reading now was moving them over was Book Yourself Solid, which is a Michael Port book where it talks about how he was an entrepreneur. Book Yourself Solid, weed out clients, try and make
00:57:44
Speaker
meetings that are important, right? Well, okay, whether I can work with this person or this person can be a referral, maybe just adding someone to my network, just being conscientious about using your time to build relationships. And so, you know, that's one of the books on my on my on my mantle now that I'm reading. And then also, I just read a bunch of subscribe to a bunch of email newsletters.
00:58:06
Speaker
see what's going on. And then try and stay off the general news, just trying to focus on, you know, business and marketing and marketing trends and seeing really what's going on. Yeah, yeah, I find myself every now and again, going down that general news rabbit hole and just feeling terrible. So it's like, keep the world a little bit smaller areas that I can control, try and create some ripple effect that's positive. But yeah, sometimes that new cycle can just consume a lot of time and headspace that is not that productive.
00:58:35
Speaker
Right. Well, I think, you know, the term doom scrolling came from the news that then made it into feeds onto social media. So yeah, interesting. Probably goes deep and dark.
00:58:46
Speaker
Well, I guess in closing, love any advice you might have for professionals of all ages in the ad space with the, I understand that there's, you know, certainly that the industry is advertising, but it seems like business development and account management and whatnot is a common thread as well. But love any, just kind of closing advice you might have for anyone along that career arc that is trying to get a little bit better every day.
00:59:11
Speaker
Well, I would always encourage no matter what age, so I'm 52. I've been doing this for 26 years and you got to be continually wanting to learn. It's not at once that I sit back and say, I know it all. I don't need to do anything. When I was at Anvil in a leadership role, we had to share articles every month or every week as a leadership like, here's what's going on.
00:59:32
Speaker
Yeah, sure. I've been to the digital marketing or a design firm and a B2B firm, but I didn't know everything and you got to keep trying to continue to learn because there's something you can learn from everybody no matter of their age and to keep yourself up to date as to what's going on so that you're marketable. So if I like, okay, I was in the .com days. Well, I'm just going to stay there. Well, then I wouldn't be in the industry anymore. You have to
00:59:56
Speaker
you know the industry shrinking the knowledge base is getting deeper and so if you want to stay in the game you have to continue learning you have to continue to read read books you have to continue to go to webinars you have to continue to network in person and
01:00:11
Speaker
branch out and get to know people. I was on a Zoom call earlier this morning with someone who's an entrepreneur, solopreneur, 27 years old out of North Carolina. He's doing some design stuff. He's doing some AI stuff and just talking to him about what are the tools he uses, sharing the tools I use. And he was like, okay, what about a value proposition and talking about the
01:00:34
Speaker
principles of marketing, and so I'm helping him with that. And he's like, well, have you tried this AI tool or something like that? So you can always network and build relationships with people and continue to do that. And once you like, this is work, I don't want to do this, then pivot and get out and do something else.
Closing Remarks
01:00:49
Speaker
That's great. Yeah, what a great, great note to end on. I, I think the one of the keys, two keys I take from that is one curiosity, which is one of our, our core values here at Cascade and two is just the hustle. You know, it's like you don't be sitting back and resting on your laurels. That's a, that might work for a short period of time, call it vacation. But, um, but you know, it just takes that constant, uh, commitment to the craft to, to stay sharp and, uh, and stay engaged.
01:01:17
Speaker
Absolutely. Because I always saw myself, if you're on the agency side, you have to know or bring more value than if you're on the client side. Because a client is working on one product, maybe doing product launch a year, going to a trade show. They're more singular in focus. In the agency, you need to know different verticals. You need to know different seasonalities of different products, services. And you're not just working on one client unless you're widening, maybe you're working on Nike.
01:01:40
Speaker
I'm working on a healthcare client, I'm working on a trucking client, I'm working on a startup and you have to be able to bring value to all of those and there's different types of marketing that's needed for those. So you need to be on your A game on the agency side as you both well know. Yeah, excellent. Well, Mike, I'll tell you, I'm really pleased that we had an opportunity to reconnect and spend this time together and I look forward to continuing our conversations and seeing how we might be able to help each other out in the future.
01:02:10
Speaker
Thanks, Ben. Thanks, Simon. I appreciate the opportunity to be on the podcast. Absolutely, Mike. Yeah. Hey, if anyone wanted to get ahold of you or follow you, what are some links? LinkedIn, Facebook, or your website?
01:02:26
Speaker
Yeah, so on LinkedIn, I'm PDX Adman, old school. I'm also on Instagram at Core Digital Consulting, and my website is Core Digital Consulting, trying to steer away from some other social media channels which are under bad management, so.
01:02:47
Speaker
Yeah, perfect. All right, Mike. Well, thanks so much for joining us, listeners. If you have any questions, we'd love to hear about it. Questions, comments, or even topics you'd like us to bring up in future episodes. Make sure you send those to webwell at cascadewebdev.com. Awesome. Thank you, guys. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot.