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The WebWell Podcast, Episode 13 - "99 Reasons For A Redesign But A New Marketing Director Ain't One"
39 Plays1 year ago
In this episode of The WebWell Podcast, we dive into the intriguing world of leadership transitions within companies. Titled "99 Reasons For A Redesign But A New Marketing Director Ain't One," we welcome guest Colby Schlicker, a seasoned expert in the field.
As organizations bring in new leadership from outside the company, a common phenomenon emerges. It's the desire for a dramatic makeover, often manifesting as a website redesign. But is this always in the best interest of the organization?
Join us as we unravel the motivations behind these changes. Is it a quest for more impact, a generational shift, or something else altogether? We'll explore the forces at play and offer insights on how to make informed decisions when considering a website redesign in the midst of leadership transitions.
Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the dynamics between leadership changes and website redesigns, and discover strategies for ensuring these transformations align with your organization's goals and values.
Learn more about Colby - www.agencyxpartners.com or on LinkedIn.
Follow us wherever you listen to podcasts!! We'd also love to hear what you think... please share your questions and comments with webwell@cascadewebdev.com
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Transcript
Introduction to The Web Well Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Web Well podcast brought to you by Cascade Web Development. I'm one of your hosts, Simon, along with Ben. And we can't wait to dive into all things internet, tech, web development, and web design.
00:00:20
Speaker
We'll also be discussing how we balance work and life and exploring the fascinating world of internet innovation. So whether you're a tech enthusiast or just looking for some entertainment, join us on this exciting journey as we explore the ever-changing landscape of the web. Thanks for tuning in and let's get started.
Episode 13: Guest Colby Schlicher's 99 Reasons for a Redesign
00:00:40
Speaker
Welcome everyone. Web Well Podcast, episode number 13. I'm super excited to be joined as always with Ben and our guest today is Colby Schlicher. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be on the show with you guys.
00:00:57
Speaker
Yeah. I'm excited for today's topic. I'll, I'll spill it a little early and then we'll do some intros. But, um, again, playfully, as we were talking offline, uh, 99 reasons off of a Jay-Z song. So 99 reasons for a redesign, but a marketing, a new marketing director ain't one. So that's today's topic, but first let's start off with some intros. Ben, what's going on? Introduce us to a Colby and, uh, we'll go from there.
00:01:25
Speaker
Sounds excellent. Yeah, Colby and I've been friends and working together in a variety of different capacities for gosh, it feels like well over a decade and just love our the origin story of our friendship. It's another one of those reminders that the women in our lives are usually responsible for so much of our success. So Colby, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to find yourself in this industry.
00:01:45
Speaker
Yeah, thanks.
Colby's Career Journey
00:01:47
Speaker
You and my wife worked together at one point in time and I was looking for a new gig and she introduced me to you and you introduced me to Lewis and Clark Bank and that's where my marketing career took off in 2008. My first day on the job was a website meeting at Cascade Web Development back in the day. I've been in marketing since 2008. I was at Lewis and Clark Bank, which was a startup bank and still one of the youngest banks on
00:02:15
Speaker
West Coast as far as I know from back then and was there for almost seven and a half years. Eventually moved in with my agency of record at the time Watson Creative and was there for about five years and was you know director of growth there also ran a strategy. Sold a lot of websites and brand work during that time and then during the pandemic left and started my own consulting
00:02:43
Speaker
which I've been doing since with a quick stop at Migration Brewing, which is an excellent business here in Portland where I was the marketing director there. So I'm honored that you guys have invited me on the show where we can talk a lot about the bills and stuff that we've been in together. And I'm sure you've seen a lot of things, a lot of projects and experiences that are similar.
00:03:08
Speaker
Yeah, excellent, excellent. So tell us what are you up to now these these days now, Colby? Yeah, I'm currently running my own consultancy firm.
Running a Consultancy Firm
00:03:17
Speaker
Just me fancy way of saying just me but you know, I've got a number of clients here in Portland. And I'm trying to you know, I think the fancy model name right now is a fractional CMO or fractional marketing director type role. And I've got a couple clients here in town where I'm spending time with them each week, sometimes helping them out with strategy.
00:03:38
Speaker
sometimes helping them out with production. You know, in this point of time, in this environment, it's just really trying to get scrappy and get my hands dirty and try to build something. We'll see where it takes me. But right now, I'm just really enjoying being hands on with a few clients. I find that very rewarding. And, you know, in the sort of remote world,
00:04:00
Speaker
Uh, right now it works with my family, but I am itching to kind of get a little more, a little more in-person work with folks. So I'm kind of looking forward for the world coming back and me spending a little more time face-to-face with people too. So we're trying to navigate all that, trying to build up the business a bit, but, um, you know, a wide range of things, uh, wide range of projects, you know, some of it digital and some of it just, you know, high level advice. And I really enjoy that work too.
00:04:27
Speaker
Well, I bet your clients really appreciate it too. Like you said, with this environment, the ability to pull in that kind of generalist expertise and then have you source the work that maybe is not within your initial sphere of expertise and really help them move some initiatives forward while managing their costs. So it sounds like a pretty good place to be operating from. Yeah. And kind of reminiscing a bit back to 2008 when I first got in at the bank as their marketing director and
00:04:57
Speaker
thinking about where websites have gone in that time and just kind of where digital marketing and the digital space has gone in that time has just been, I mean, I feel like we've seen everything in a little bit, seen it together in a sense during that time, everything from like, you know, websites that can move to the size of the screen in which they're on to Facebook and social media coming on and display advertising.
Evolution of Digital Marketing since 2008
00:05:21
Speaker
And I think really one of the big trends during that time, which
00:05:27
Speaker
I hope we can talk about today too, just the level of storytelling and purpose-driven marketing that has really penetrated the priority of dollar spend in a lot of ways too, more than it ever has. And so it's been fun to just kind of preparing for the show today, thinking about all the things that have happened since 2008.
00:05:50
Speaker
in that digital space. It's like it's really hard, you know, you've been in sort of that specialized spot. I've kind of been generalized and feel like I've got a flavor of everything, but it's hard to just kind of nail down one specific thing in my mind. So, you know, I do like to provide some general advice for my clients and then I can bring in experts like you guys to come help get certain things over the finish line or, you know, do a much better job at something I can't do.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, you bet. You bet. No, it's exciting. Well, great. Well, Simon, maybe I'll hand it back to you and we can dive into today's topic. Yeah, I want to reflect real quick on a couple of things he was talking about, talking about from 2008, the changes in marketing, both needs
00:06:37
Speaker
industries, all that. As you were talking there, Chloe, I pictured this like, build it and they will come marketing strategy, isn't the case. I don't think. It may have been back when print was like, let's just put out a beautiful big print ad and we'll get what we want out of that. Where now, like you're saying, you have to be so much more strategic and very deliberate with messaging, with branding, with that message to spear.
00:07:06
Speaker
your little sliver, if you will, of audience where back in the day I, and again, I wasn't an advertiser back in the day, but when I was going to school, like you're talking about some of those changes when I was going to school, we talked about print ads, right? Like I was, I was designing print layouts, you know, and, and I say that jokingly, I love layout and I love print, but like, it's not what it is now. Like it's changed drastically. So yeah, that's, that's a cool, at least
00:07:36
Speaker
great perspective seeing from 2008 as a round number to now, just how it's like moved through time, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And as you were talking about that, Colby, it got me thinking, you know, like the profession is a practice, right? Cause we're trying a lot of stuff on and we think things are going to work. And so that in my mind, it's like, well, what we learned real quick there is metrics, you know, how can we measure effectiveness? Cause we can't guarantee results.
00:08:04
Speaker
But boy, you want to find that right cocktail of efforts that will drive the user to hopefully convert and do what we hope they'll do and find love and connection with the effort. So obviously there's a whole bunch of folks that are in the world of metrics and measuring results because we are. We're kind of practicing and trying things on and dialing certain things up that appear to be working and other things down that aren't. So it's a pretty fun process.
00:08:33
Speaker
Yeah, I would, you know, if you don't mind me continuing on this a bit, like, you know, as, as I said, from the agency where we say, okay, so as we sit on the client, as we say client side, like, you know, so much of it, so much of it, you know, you need to find your ROI, and you need to, you need to kind of fight for budget, you need to do that. And then on the other side of the coin, when you're that, when you're an agency, and, you know,
00:09:01
Speaker
You're trying to educate and you're trying to kind of bring people into this knowledge that you have. And in both parties, whether you're a marketing director or an agency, you've got to just kind of really work your ass off to get those key stakeholders who are cutting the checks to believe in that. And like in an ever changing world of digital, you know, it's going to change so fast. You know, it's going to change so quickly.
00:09:28
Speaker
And so to try to make those folks happy and to show the success of your work is an ever is an ongoing challenge all the time. Yeah. And you just got to, got to keep plugging. And, you know, I've been lucky in a lot of ways to in my career, um, work for folks that understand that, um, they have courage to market, you know,
00:09:55
Speaker
They have courage to invest in brand. They have courage to invest in their digital strategy. And so, and I've seen when people don't and that's tough. You know, so sorry about that tangent, but that was just like, you know, it's, it's a, it's just, it's been a roller coaster, man. It's been this marketing world has been a roller coaster. Um, but it's great. Well, I think that segues well enough into this topic of 99 reasons for redesign. And again.
00:10:24
Speaker
If your listeners are keying in on this part, redesign, we're typically talking about a website, but we could say a redesign, a brand, a redesign of messaging, all of that being the same. We'll say we're talking more specifically website, but
00:10:41
Speaker
99 reasons for a redesign, but a new marketing director ain't one. And why, Colby? I think you're perfect for this is because you're the marketing director. You're that guy. But you're also not that guy. It's us kind of coming to you and saying, we've seen a certain trend, and I'll better explain it in a second, but we've seen a certain trend where turnover is causing a new marketing director to come in and they're thinking,
00:11:08
Speaker
And I'll say it, a certain demographic age, possibly being that demographic, are coming in thinking, I need to make a name for myself.
Impact of New Marketing Directors
00:11:18
Speaker
How do I do that? And then use this to springboard my career to the next position, maybe, or new fancier job, or that one job that they serve, have cereal in the kitchen, you know, all day long, and I can go snack or whatever, you know, like,
00:11:33
Speaker
There's that and then you, Colby, are kind of in this position too. You're like, okay, you're coming in. How can I make an impact? But I think what's unique about you and what I've known of you in the short time that we've chatted is that it's not the name for yourself. You're actually needing to make the name for the client. And I think that's the key differentiator.
00:11:56
Speaker
between a new marketing director, someone that's coming in to springboard to the next job, and then someone like you that comes in, like, I'm really holistically looking at this client and their needs and saying, is the redesign the best choice or not? Is it a facelift? So let's start with defining it. What does this mean? So if you're, again, marketing director coming in,
00:12:23
Speaker
Maybe you could speak, Colby, what are the first things that you're looking at? Again, new in the role or you're looking at a potential client where you're coming in as the CMO. What are you looking at when it comes to, we'll say digital space more specifically? Is a redesign your go-to? What are your go-tos? What are the things you're looking at to really analyze your next step? Yeah.
00:12:53
Speaker
I like to kind of look at this through like almost like a product lifecycle perspective in one sense. And like, what's the brand lifecycle at this point? What does that digital presence lifecycle look like? Like is it stale would be a question. You know, does it feel dusty? Does it feel out of
00:13:13
Speaker
era, you know, those are some obvious things, but you know, when you're kind of talking to C suite type folks, like that may not necessarily be the right angle to take on that. I think like you want to be talking about the business life cycle in itself. Are we preparing for a growth phase? You know, are we ramping up sales efforts? What are the things that need to be behind that revenue that will help drive
00:13:43
Speaker
revenue growth. Really, it's that funky, it depends answer where that business is at in its growth phase. If it's like, okay, hey, we can keep this thing where it's at for a while and let's just throw some fresh content on it, that'll do the job. But is it, hey, man, we look 10 years old, we got to
00:14:13
Speaker
you know, we got to really kind of shape things up here. I think those are some of the obvious things. You know, sometimes there's cultural stuff around a business that, you know, maybe there's been a big change in leadership, maybe there's made a big change in business direction, and you've got to really just kind of reposition yourself. You know, the website is really the
00:14:36
Speaker
the keeper of the brand in a lot of ways, like almost all your key assets are going to be on the site, your identity, your brand promise, all those things should all be told on a website. You know, if someone comes in new at the top, you know, that's a good time to possibly rethink that. But, you know, as a marketing director, there is a bit of that ego, there is a bit of that, like, I want to come in and make waves.
00:15:03
Speaker
And I think maybe when I was younger, I certainly felt like that with certain opportunities of like, hey, I want to come in and change stuff up and kind of put my stamp on things. But I think as the older I've gotten and maybe the more people I've worked with, you know, I think it's just really kind of analyzing where the money's at, you know, and as a marketer learning to speak a little more CFO language than CMO language and kind of talk that
00:15:32
Speaker
talk and be like, what's going to actually make an impact right now? Sometimes that is a new website, but sometimes it's let's invest in content, which we can then deploy, um, on the website, the existing website and new channels. Maybe we just need to tweak a few, make a few new landing pages. Maybe we need, you know, so that's just kind of a broad answer there. But I think like, uh, in terms of that.
00:15:59
Speaker
marketing director mentality that does exist because in tough times, or when you're changing jobs, the marketing director or your marketing dollars are the first things cut, you know, or you need to, when you're going and interviewing for a new role somewhere, they're going to be like, tell me about your work in the past. And, you know, a new website's a sexy item that you can point to and be like, this was
00:16:30
Speaker
big thing. But what I think is actually, as I've gotten older, it's the numbers, if you can prove ROI in general revenue growth for the company, I've been lucky to be part of some fast growing companies with the bank, with the agency, with the brewery. Some of the ads had to do, I would say the bank, a big part of that had to do with our website. And that's a project we worked on together. And that was really part of that time was when
00:16:57
Speaker
as a community bank, we really kind of broke a mold in terms of website storytelling. And I was really proud of that project. But as I went to the brewery recently, we kicked that website down the road as much as we could, because we had to focus on sales. We had to focus on point of sale. And what are those events? What are those quick decision-making
00:17:25
Speaker
opportunities for beer buyers, you know, a website is not necessarily going to turn that right away. So, you know, one other thought that pops up as I'm thinking about this is like, you also need to understand your customer a bit too. And I think like if it's an e-commerce type business, you might need, that priority may need to be much higher in terms of dollars and frequency being invested into an online store. You know, if that's your main
00:17:55
Speaker
space. But I'd say the majority of my experience has been B2B type business where it's a much longer sale, much higher price sale. And a website in that sense is more about vetting and understanding your partner in a complex industry. So that brochure just needs to be tight. You have great content.
00:18:26
Speaker
on there and I think that has a longer shelf life in general. So yeah, it depends, Simon. I think every client's different in that sense and it's really just kind of understanding the money of the business you're in and what's gonna help you drive.
00:18:47
Speaker
Yeah, as you were talking about that in there too, I was thinking totally that the industry thing like you just said, e-commerce, that is the tool. So maybe it is a full refresh. It's a look at the customer journey on that experience because you have them for a short time where like you're saying a B2B bank, for example, it's vetting, it's instilling trust, it's bringing in all of that stuff as well into that. Ben, what are you going to say?
00:19:17
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess the other thing that comes to my mind as you're talking about that Colby is the distinction between the backend of a website and the front end of a website, right?
Approach to Website Redesigns
00:19:27
Speaker
And how much could be leveraged from what's been learned up to that point with the backend of a website and then reflected, and then reflect that new energy, that new excitement on the front end. And obviously there are some ubiquitous
00:19:44
Speaker
platforms out there, the Shopify is on the e-commerce side, the WordPress is on the messaging side, pushing all sorts of different directions. I think a lot of people have this perspective of like it's one thing as compared to no, you know, depending on how it's built, perhaps we just reskin the front end, add some new features and then, you know, a fairly light lift, a small amount of time, small amount of budget can have the same impact as a full redesign, which has all of the weight of, you know, interviewing people.
00:20:14
Speaker
you know, vetting them, determining are you the right, not only the right people, but backed up by the right technology. And then going down that very long process of building out a website. And I just wonder if there's probably more work that we could do on the agency side to, you know, not only be front and center with our point of contact and their team, perhaps as below them, but also maybe up a rung to the extent that we can have a strong relationship there and send a clear message that, hey,
00:20:44
Speaker
you know what, when and if you do have a transition, there's so much that we've learned and we've got this investment in this backend. But yeah, if you want to mix up the front end, let's do that. It's just assuming that we're not blowing it from your perspective, then let's get that fresh design energy, that fresh content energy in and reflect that on the site at a lower cost. And I think that's one of those areas where sometimes you kind of like,
00:21:07
Speaker
Oh my gosh, like everything was going so great until one person decided to exit stage left. And now this whole organization, which was talking about not having a lot of resources and wanting to do all these things, finds themselves in this really expensive, you know, time and money endeavor to read you the website. And then sometimes you see those results and you're kind of scratching your head saying, wow, it doesn't feel like that. Check very many boxes. So I guess from your perspective to you, generally as the perspective band that a website is,
00:21:35
Speaker
is one thing and is not necessarily separated front and from back end? I just feel like that's all about resources in a lot of ways and bandwidth if I was in that marketing director seat. Lots of times, in my experience, I've been the one person, as you're saying, if I were to go, there's nobody
00:22:04
Speaker
There's nobody there to understand that. I don't know, Ben, I think, like, if, if there's multiple people within a marketing department, then it's going to be much easier to, to double up, uh, you know, um, who knows what on the back end of that site, you know? And if not, if there's only one person, then, you know, you're my best friend. You know what I mean? And I've got to just kind of have regular,
00:22:35
Speaker
regular meetings and contact with you. So yeah, it can get a little tricky there, you know, in terms of resourcing and who does what within a team. And a lot of my experience has, I've only had a couple where I've had people underneath me that I can kind of delegate that to. Most of the time I've got the whole, I'm spinning all the plates, right?
00:23:02
Speaker
Totally makes sense. Yeah, you're the one who's just convening all that expertise and delivering on them that one thing. Yeah. And one, one conversation I've had over and over again with my key points of contact, mainly with them. And sometimes they're a little taken aback because like, what, what are we talking about is to say, Hey, you know, we want to be a, we want to be, you know, a source of stability for you and your organization. And we want you to feel that when you decide to make a decision or someone else,
00:23:26
Speaker
makes it for you, that you're no longer going to be here, that this is something you can feel really good and say, I'm leaving this place way better than I found it. You've got a really strong website. We've solved a bunch of stuff. And now you can do small things to have a huge impact versus having to knock it down and start over and then potentially like, gosh, I can't believe
00:23:44
Speaker
a joker that was our previous marketing director to let this in such a terrible spot. Nobody wants that, right? And I think about the positions I've been in with on boards in the past and the proverbial Tupperware box, like, all right, you're the new chairman. Here you go. And you're like, what do I do with this as compared to this really well-operating and well-functioning tool?
00:24:05
Speaker
That doesn't always play out the way we want to, but I think that's, that's one of those areas where, you know, a, a web team, a marketing team worth at salt can really, really support an organization in that time, instead of it being something where they're like, we don't know what to do with you and we're going to start from scratch. So that's, I don't know. Well, in kudos to companies like yours and just in general, even the squarespaces and the.
00:24:34
Speaker
you know, Wix companies or the world. They've made the back end much easier in the past for if, you know, someone were to leave, someone could at least understand. I mean, I know your tool's always been intuitive and that's been a great thing to see change since 2008 too, really. It's just like some of the ease of picking up some of that stuff where, you know, at least someone can get in and do some stuff, but like in general, keeping a close relationship with
00:25:03
Speaker
You, your dev team is, is critical. Yeah. Yep. So Colby street, right? I mean, that's as much on us as, as on the client that we're reaching out and that we've got, they know where to, where to go if they have a problem and it's not just one person. So yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. So Colby, you, you had mentioned you needing to put on like the CFO mindset.
00:25:27
Speaker
which which I find really interesting, especially in your your role where it's kind of like, you're the advocate for whatever you're presenting, you know, to the client and saying like, you kind of have to sell it to them. And the best way to sell it to them is the ROI is like, okay, if we do this because of the numbers I'm seeing now, we make this change, it costs x, but it's going to get you
00:25:49
Speaker
Why? Right. Um, what are, what are some other reasons you would say, what are some of the key red flags, if you will, that you would present to a client in addition to ROI? Yeah.
Identifying Red Flags for Redesigns
00:26:02
Speaker
Um, I'll start. I'll start with just another ROI discussion though, from that CFO thing. Cause I think it's important cause I've, it's helped me communicate a few times, which is amortizing that cost of a new website too.
00:26:15
Speaker
over time, where I think like, if I were to ask you guys to give me the price for a website and you sent me, you know, X amount of dollars, if you looked at it as a one time cost, you know, that might be a little bit of a, you know, like, but if I know that website is going to last me three to five, maybe sometimes longer years, I think a real good way of CFO can look at that as you amortize that cost over the lifetime of that site, it becomes a much more digestible number.
00:26:44
Speaker
And it makes sense if you were to look at a year's worth of business versus like, oh, I got to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a site in one year. That's going to depend on the company you're talking to. But I do think that a good CFO will understand that. But in terms of red flags, I think some of the biggest things
00:27:08
Speaker
Lately certainly is like, does it adjust to mobile? Is it a mobile first design? It's crazy how you can go out there and still see designs that are laid out like it was 2008. And you still got to pinch and zoom to find the links. I mean, there's still a lot of that out there. And there might be organizations that has a great sales team and their folks are out there crushing it and they're still doing well.
00:27:38
Speaker
You know, and so they don't, they say, I don't really need this, but it's like, you know, you want to kind of get them into the next era. So like one of the points of discussion there is like, Hey, we've got, you know, millennials are now the like biggest group in the workforce. Now, like people like my son are now going to be entering the workforce. Like.
00:28:03
Speaker
They, you got to be preparing for that next wave of folks, right? So I think just really the functionality and kind of being mobile first, I think is a big red flag. You know, I think one of the things that is also a red flag, I think was a trend in the past was just too much information. Just, I think, you know, people used to just put everything they possibly could
00:28:33
Speaker
on a site and you're serving the master Google for search, but you're really overwhelming your customers with choice in a lot of ways. So like really trying to focus in and slim down a site I think is a philosophy I like to recommend and abide by as much as I possibly can. And I see that a lot in sort of the B2B banking or professional services space where they want just like
00:29:04
Speaker
get everything out there. I think you're taking away talent from maybe taking away opportunity from some of your sales staff by losing the prospect of curiosity when exploring a site. I think a good brand strategy, a good storytelling strategy kind of takes you up to a certain point, and this is where a site can really kind of lead you up to a certain point where you're interested and like, okay, now I want to learn some more, but not too much information. Those are a couple.
00:29:34
Speaker
that I think come off and just really like, for me, you know, having worked in a creative agency and worked with some really great artists and writers, you know, how, are you giving your content the best opportunity to shine? You know, visual and verbal content that just, you know, pulls at the heartstrings or cuts right through to the,
00:30:01
Speaker
That is just makes me melt when I think about a project and what, you know, drives success. Like, um, so like, does the site present your story in the best way possible? And like, let's say you spent 20 grand on a couple of videos, like does your, do you have the space to do that? You know, so like sometimes, you know, I've recently been in business where we spent money on content, you know, where I put it.
00:30:30
Speaker
You know, I can push it through social a lot or, you know, and I just want people to see, I don't want it to be out there. And that, those are sometimes hard conversations with the C-suite to get them to spend money on it. Cause you're like, where is it going to go? So, you know, those are the types of thoughts and all that takes strategy. All that takes some, takes some time to work through that. So I'd say those are some three red flags there.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's pretty interesting. You know, I think back about our history at Cascade and how we for the longest time were so focused on the development side and the design side wasn't a priority, which was where the state you found Lewis and Clark came is that we started down that path. And they're like, we're not quite feeling this. And that's when we brought in Watson and and all of their magic. And in the way that it struck me at the time was like, it doesn't matter if your house has got the best framing possible.
00:31:24
Speaker
If they botch up the drywall and the exterior trim and the windows and the roof and all the stuff you can see none of that stuff underlying is, is that valuable on the flip. Oftentimes you'll see that people will put all of their energy or so much of their energy on the front end, the design, the content, the assets, and it'll be, it'll be propped up by a super lightweight platform that isn't intended to, to be pushed in those directions. So finding that balance can be really tricky.
00:31:50
Speaker
And, you know, again, it comes down to where do you want to put the resources so that the, the, you know, the chassis is strong enough to hold up all this stuff you're trying to, to put out to the world. Yeah.
00:32:02
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Colby, when you're talking about like spending 20 grand on videos, I just, and we, Ben and I, we always go to like the house reference and foundation when the videos I just picture being like a beautiful front door, but they put it on the second floor. So like you're approaching the house and we can't even get to it, right? That's just what I picture is like a lot of people will do that where their money was spent on X, but how they deployed it, how they used it, how it's implemented is not accessible, you know?
00:32:31
Speaker
And I'm not talking about like accessibility when it comes to, you know, is it easy to read is, will a screen reader, you know, adapt to this and all that. I'm talking about like, it just didn't deliver. It didn't hit home. And so, uh, I really appreciate you almost start going into my realm of creative director and feeling the feelings part when you said it, it makes you melt when that message and the imagery is like all.
Focus on Content and Imagery
00:32:56
Speaker
that sharp point and getting to where you wanted versus all these other directions. I think that's appealing too. As far as redesign, let's talk about the other side of this is just a facelift. What would you say if you go into, again, a client where it's like, well, the backend is actually pretty solid. It's pretty modern. We can work with it.
00:33:23
Speaker
Where do you focus then on just a facelift? Is it images? And I really hope you're just going to say content is probably some of the key part, but what would you say on facelift? Definitely content. I generally am attracted to short, punchy content and beautiful images with plenty of white space. And if there's a brand refresh,
00:33:50
Speaker
that happens and let's just swap out some of the key landing areas with the new stuff. I think that's what I would call a site refresh. Or let's just invest in a couple of new templates on the site, a couple of the key landing pages or something. We don't have to blow the whole thing up. And I do think trimming down, as I mentioned before, is a great way to refresh too.
00:34:19
Speaker
You know, let's, let's, um, keep it simple, you know, um, and short and some of the, yeah. Yeah. I like that. Uh, in your experience, when you look back on the last, you know, two decades or so, um, talking about brands that have redesigned, can you think, uh, just the top of your head, uh, think of brands that redesigned full facelift or just a full from ground up?
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah. You know, when I was in banking, I think the company that everyone always looked at was Umpqua. You know, I think they've done a really, really nice job with their home pages. And they've done their websites several times, but, you know, they're kind of the OG of breaking the mold and storytelling and banking. And they still do a good job of that.
00:35:15
Speaker
And certainly have led the way in terms of Pacific Northwest style, you know, professional services kind of going on. I kind of want to be like, like on the claw. And I, you know, so they're, they're, they're great. You know, in terms of others, I feel like there's a lot of clients I've worked with that always point to Apple, you know, and I hate saying it, but like, you know, they're behemoth, but they really set this, you know, just in terms of clean,
00:35:45
Speaker
white space and highlighting some really quality images, you know, there's them. You know, I would like to just say every client that I've worked with, I always think 2.0 has been better than their first version. And, you know, I really can't think of any of that jump out unless like, you know, brands you would know.
00:36:16
Speaker
But, you know, like I can think of a few clients at the agency days, like Oregon Blueberry Farms and Nursery is one of the ones where I just really loved how, you know, you took sort of what was an unknown business in a digital space to a fantastic story with some strong images and a site that complemented all that content. That was a great project.
00:36:47
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah, you know, again, like, I think a website is successful when the content shines and supports the business. And yeah, I don't have too many others to specifically I'd point to. I just kind of look for those key elements. Did we check? Did we do a good job on making the content shine and the brand shine as as styles and looks that I like?
00:37:15
Speaker
So Colby, so like you're coming in as, as from a leadership perspective, what can they hand off to you that best equips you to help make those decisions? If it's going to be a full redesign or just a facelift, what information could they hand you? Got it. Yeah. I, you know, I think that a marketing director or a marketing consultant, whether during the, during the get to know you process, uh, we'll figure that out.
00:37:46
Speaker
there will need to be a lot of conversations to make that a successful handoff. Certainly I would want to know, you know, what were some of the key major investments in the past? I would want to know, you know, the history of the website, the history of the brand, what is, you know, all the basics, but knowing what their pain points are, knowing what,
00:38:14
Speaker
they determine will be a success for the marketing department going forward is the most important bit. If I were to be interviewing for a company as their marketing director, I would want to know what resources I'm working with and what are the pain points of the C-suite at that time. And I think I'd be able to kind of figure out what I need to move forward
00:38:45
Speaker
Um, and now, cause I don't want to come in and start proposing to blow stuff up. If I know that's going to just be a, it's going to end in failure. So it's kind of more in the roles position to really equip that information or at least gather that information versus the company side of saying here, this should equip you to make decisions. It's more your role coming in and knowing how to ask and find that information then. Yeah. 100%. And I appreciate you just distilling that, uh, for me, you know,
00:39:14
Speaker
There's a lot of folks in leadership that don't know a little bit about marketing. They don't. They might be operators. They might be CFO minded, which is what drove them to the top of their organization. Investing in marketing or hiring a marketing director may have been a big leap for them at that time.
00:39:44
Speaker
you know, they might just be, we just need to save money or they might be less invest in sales more. You know, and that's the same reason why when times get tough, you know, the marketing dollar, the marketing dollars shrink a lot, you know, because it's, you know, it's, it's really hard. Here's the interesting thing. As a marketing director, you've got to fight every day for your budget. It is a,
00:40:13
Speaker
It is a ongoing battle in just about every experience that I've had. You know, even with the most pro-marketing people in charge. It's the first thing on the table, right? And I understand it. I get it. If I was in that seat, I might be making a similar decision. Right. But, you know, I think there's that famous Rockefeller quote as well, which is like, hey, when there's blood in the streets, you should be buying.
Battling for Marketing Budgets
00:40:41
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:40:43
Speaker
So there's, there's some, some people retract and get more conservative. And some people are like, Oh, let this time to go. It's time to double down. You know, that's, so that's when you're, you count your blessings as a marketing director. If you're kind of with the double down folks, you know, let's go in and, and go, but yeah, it's just, it's, it's always a battle. It's always a battle to, to prove your, to prove your worth, um, and, and bigger investments in brand.
00:41:12
Speaker
bigger investments in content and bigger investments in websites. Those are tough decisions. You've got, you know, if you're on the inside, you are fighting for that project. And, you know, you've got to sell, sell, sell internally. Yeah. To win those, to win that work. And, you know, that's, that's tough battle sometimes. But I really appreciate your perspective on that.
00:41:36
Speaker
Colby, in looking at 2024, what are maybe some things that I think companies should be looking out for when it comes to redesign? What are some areas that companies you think are kind of targeting for this coming year? I think from my experience, I think we're near the bottom of the trough economically.
00:42:06
Speaker
Um, I think, uh, I think there's a lot of marketing departments that have been, um, crunched. I think you've probably got a lot of, uh, marketing leaders that are now their roles have been expanded, uh, to include lower level activities. And, you know, so I think there's a lot of companies just squeezing as much juice as they can.
00:42:35
Speaker
out of their marketing teams. I think to your question, companies should be finding out where they can start alleviating a bit more stress from those marketing teams and what vendors they can bring in or what head count they can bring in to make their teams a bit more robust. And I've seen that all over the place in my professional network.
00:43:05
Speaker
myself is like, you know, to be thinking about what are the opportunities from an activation type standpoint and what channels and I don't think that's the conversation right now. I think the conversation is let's get some help to some dollars to whatever your marketing department might need at this time. That's the opportunity. Because I think most folks, at least small to medium sized businesses that I've experienced
00:43:35
Speaker
Personally and through my personal network, they're feeling crunched. They're overwhelmed with a lot of resources. And they're going to need help and tools too. You don't want to be the laggard when this thing starts to take off again, right? Because it is. It's all a cycle. The market's going to bounce back. We're all kind of hoping for it all to take off.
00:44:03
Speaker
If you just got one person there who doesn't have enough resources and good luck. So I would say like this, you know, right now we're in budgeting season two in October here for the new year. Do you have, can you add a couple more percentage points to that marketing budget wherever that is? That would be my message to clients out there.
00:44:30
Speaker
You still just need to keep it tight.
00:44:34
Speaker
I know that little sound bite right there of you saying that will just be music to the ears of a lot of our listeners. And I know specifically probably a lot of our clients are like, Oh Lord, please. Yes. I could just use a little notch up here. Uh, so I can take a day off or like you're saying skill set. I'm not, I'm not supposed to be doing this content. I'm supposed to have someone else helping me. I'm just big picture, you know, and being able to step in and support, you know, which.
00:45:01
Speaker
in a lot of ways is kind of, I think our role with a lot of our clients is supporting that. However, we know that internally, like they're seeking budget approval too, like we're sitting here. And I know I just I had like two emails that go out this morning, where it was kind of just I'm giving ammo to these poor people. And they're pitching it up the line, like trying to like, I'm giving all the ammo to like, this is this is really what you need this little take. And then they're going to bat for it, you know, because they want it, they need it.
00:45:30
Speaker
They know the value in it, you know, so that is definitely music to the ears of a lot. I'm hoping a lot of our customers or clients and listeners. Yeah. So it's been an overwhelming flash three, four years, you know, just in terms of trying to, you know, push, make the sausage and, you know, get it to market. If for one person marketing teams or small marketing teams that, um,
00:45:59
Speaker
need help, you know, I think that is the, and you just kind of trust them, trust them to produce, you know, that would be my recommendation. So in a dream world, Colby, we're looking again, 2024, what kind of projects, what kind of clients, what kind of work are you hoping to do more of? What is kind of that dream scenario for you? I love doing like a prospective brand positioning and strategy.
00:46:29
Speaker
One thing I like to say about the sort of strategy and consulting type work that I do is I usually encounter my clients in their most ambitious state. When I meet with them, they're ready to tackle something. They may not know what it is or specifically
00:46:55
Speaker
what's the best solution, but they're ready to attack, they're ready to go. They're now an ambitious state. And so the value that I like to bring, and that really makes me feel good, is helping them coalesce all those thoughts, research behind it, and sharing with them the findings and making recommendations on what goes forward, right? And then I can hand off
00:47:25
Speaker
beautiful plans and put together a team for them or help them manage it. Those are the types of relationships I want to where I can guide a person through some strategy, whether it's a brand refresh or a marketing, you know, what are we gonna do this next year? And then I can bring in my most talented friends to execute that stuff.
00:47:55
Speaker
That's a pretty cool feeling when you work with folks and at the end of it, like you said, you deliver something to them. Do you get a sense of their achievable? Don't they feel like we achieved this? Because in a lot of ways, like you're saying, you're getting to know them.
00:48:13
Speaker
You're trying to create this persona, this brand. And a lot of that is coming from the heart of those folks in leadership, right? Like of who they are. And so they pour themselves into it. And at the end, when you can take all the noise and distill it down to this thing, however it's delivered, do you just get that sense of achievement from them, right? I mean, when the strategy and the creative all comes together, that is the best feeling for me. And when the client understands that as well, that is the best feeling in the world.
00:48:43
Speaker
uh, I'm not going to lie or, or gloss over the fact that that can be a very painful process at times. Uh, you know, to go through, it takes a, it takes a change in people or you have to change their understanding. Or like we've alluded to a bit in this conversation, the ROI isn't immediate. So you might go through that stuff and set the plan and be like this, that feels good when you're, but the ROI might take a little bit to get it back. And so.
00:49:12
Speaker
I think there's always that phase where like, are we doing, you know, there's a little bit of buyer's remorse or, you know, you've got to get them to trust the process. You know, so, you know, it's never, it's never like, yes, we did it right off the bat. I think there's a lot of ambition. The process is there's a lot of ambition. There's bringing the team together around the plan. There's launching and then there's like,
00:49:43
Speaker
Come on, stay with it. That's what it's about. That's what's fun. Do you have any thoughts or ideas for the listeners about tips for managing those expectations? Just as much of that conversation of what we just talked about up front and understanding having a good sense of that ROI.
00:50:11
Speaker
If you're investing in a brand or a website, you know, your ROI might be a couple years out. The big win might be, you know, are you working with a small business that's trying to build and sell? Right? An ROI in the short term doesn't mean as much as building a brand that you can sell, building a book of business that you can sell. That's the big win.
00:50:35
Speaker
But, or are we doing a marketing campaign where I need to see click through numbers. I need to see web traffic. I need to see, you know, engagement. I need to, I need to track the hot zones on the website and make sure, you know, that's a diff, that's a whole different conversation than, um, we're building this thing to. So, you know, it's just kind of trying to, you really understand your customer and trying to get as much of that conversation out the way.
00:51:01
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I agree. Having those metrics that you can kind of point back to and kind of the down in distance, if you will, in the immediate term, but then also keeping an eye on the long term goals there and and not not getting off track when, you know, things don't necessarily go your way. That can those can be tricky conversations again goes back to that courage and I think to your point over communicating. And sometimes I find you got to ask some kind of person like probing questions around
00:51:28
Speaker
what does success look like to you, right? That's one thing I always I find myself asking a lot is, what do you care about? What does success look like? Okay, let's track to that in a variety of ways. So that you know, we don't, we don't feel that buyer's remorse, we don't get impatient, and not give it a chance to be successful. Because we've had some experiences over the last 25 years I've been doing this where you look back and they ran out of patience, they they stopped funding
00:51:54
Speaker
the effort and then all of a sudden or, you know, then all of a sudden thing pops in three or four months and the relationship is soured and you're like, man, let that one get away. And yeah, that can be tricky. Yeah. You know, an example recently is with my friends over at Migration. You know, we're investing a lot of time and money in building some new beer brands, you know, designing a new label, renaming a new beer.
00:52:21
Speaker
figuring out what's going to take the place of another beer and kind of putting together this big plan. And we understand it takes time for a new product to grow. And so that's a full-on team understanding that, hey, we're tracking this thing grow over time, right? We're watching the life cycle of another brand that might be kind of running its course. And we all understand that, but hey, if I'm running a weekend event,
00:52:50
Speaker
We got to look at how many people are going to come in. How many, what are we paying on that? What's, what's a, what's a quick turn ROI on that? And then we'll know that success. Those are two completely different marketing related projects. You know, you got to be able to do both. And I think it's just really communication of expectations all the time, meeting a lot, having those, you know, what's it look like to you? Uh, what's a win look like to you? Um, so.
00:53:21
Speaker
Yes. Cool. Colby, I appreciate your time and sharing some of your stories. This is kind of this topic as well as your input. I think it'd be fun to have you back, you know, episode number 50 or something. We get a few more in there and bridge this topic again and go from there. But Ben and I really appreciate you joining us. My pleasure. This was a lot of fun. I'd be happy to come back. It's good to be around you.
00:53:50
Speaker
Awesome. All right, Colby. Appreciate it. Thank you listeners. As always, please don't forget to like, follow all those normal social cues, but also if you have any questions or topic ideas, please email them to us at webwell at cascadewebdev.com. Appreciate it. Thanks guys. Thanks Colby. Adios. Adios.