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Ep. 26 - The Gospel at Gunpoint: Master's Commission Was a Hoot! w/ Bianca
110 Plays4 years ago
If you spent a lot of time at youth group, chances are good that a few different Christian organizations gave a presentation about their program. Some of them were focused on the local community, some sent kids overseas for missionary work, and others were more of a Bible training program centered around the individual. They almost always had a great pitch, with pictures of exciting places and stories about incredible experiences, but as I got older, I met more and more people who had strange experiences in these programs.
Our guest, Bianca, joined Master's Commission fresh out of high school. It's a program affiliated with the Assembly of God church which describes itself as "an intense discipleship training center that challenges you to grow an intimate relationship with God and pursue the dreams God has placed before you." As far as Bianca knew, that meant two years of community service and missions work which resulted in a Biblical studies certificate offered through the church. What it actually meant was surrendering every waking moment of her life to a strict group of fundamentalists with no qualms about working teenagers to the bone, while simultaneously bombarding them with intense, and sometimes dangerous, spiritual programming. Despite the negative aspects of her experience, Bianca is able to look back on her time at Master's Commission with a degree of appreciation for the lessons she learned, and the friends she grew close to. You're going to enjoy her infectious positivity, and her take on what faith means to her, these days!
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Transcript
Existential Childhood Memory
00:00:00
Speaker
if someone points a gun at you like I remember that feeling as a kid like being told it's like a Bible verse when Jesus says like if you deny the father then I'll deny you whatever so you're like oh if that's your last minute feel like do you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord saving you're like oh no and then they then you have to like live with that and you're like I'm probably going now you either just get shot in the fucking forehead or you go to hell
Introduction and College Memories
00:00:54
Speaker
I need that line that Sam just said to be like the intro to this whole podcast.
00:00:55
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Growing Up Christian. I am Sam. And I'm Casey. And right before we hit record, we kind of started arguing about how and why Casey bailed on me when we were looking for an off-campus apartment when we were in college together.
00:01:17
Speaker
I don't remember this at all. And we didn't really argue. You just like started hurl and accusations. Yeah. Well, I could see where this was going. And so we hit record and decided to get into it in real time. So, okay. What happened was from my memory. It's funny. This kind of reminds me of the episode we did with Jesse where him and I can't recall how we met.
00:01:38
Speaker
No, I can recall how I met and this is my podcast so I can reassert myself and my dominance over him and that I am 100% correct in the way that we met and he is wrong. So that's fine. But with us, so
00:01:55
Speaker
We were on the dorm together. We didn't share a dorm room. There is going to be an episode coming out in a couple weeks, a few weeks, where I do some joking and quick reminiscing about my college roommate situation. But Casey was just down the hall from me.
00:02:21
Speaker
Every once in a while, my college roommates would go out of town. Actually, not every once in a while, every single weekend, they would go back home. So when people got sick of their roommates or were just wanting something a little bit quieter, low key, or their roommates were out of town, people would just then default to my room because it was empty. They could just not have to be involved in shenanigans if they didn't want to.
00:02:47
Speaker
My college roommates, I only just remembered their names this week because I've been just like racking my brain for it. I don't remember their last name, so you won't be able to really look them up. I've been trying to find them on Facebook and I can't. But Bill and Brian, they were identical twins and they dressed the same every fucking day in college.
00:03:16
Speaker
they were different. Like I've never seen anything quite like that any other place. And it's like one of those stories that when you tell people they think you're exaggerating or that you're making a big deal out of something that probably wasn't like as bad as you're saying it was, but these two were, they were very different. Did you ever talk to them? Did you ever hear them speak? I never, no, I never heard them speak once.
00:03:43
Speaker
Yeah, I only heard this is this is a this is the shit that was really creepy was like They never spoke when I was in the room with them never I'm Convinced they had like some sort of instant messenger thing going on there. I honestly think probably it was just telepathic transmission But hey
00:04:08
Speaker
never spoke when I was in the room. So there was a couple of times where I'd be coming back to my dorm room and I'd stop and I'd wait outside the door and I would hear them talking. I'd wait a little bit.
00:04:22
Speaker
It was hard to really hear. It was pretty soundproof. The storms weren't bad for soundproofing. Then I opened the door. The second the door opened, they would stop talking. I would open the door and they would just both be turned and looking at me from their desks. They'd just stop talking, turn in unison, and just stare at you in silence like Skyrim NPCs. Yeah. Exactly.
00:04:51
Speaker
My other, God, the other thing that really stuck with me is they both, this is, I, people don't, look, it's fine if you don't believe me. People don't have to believe me. It's the fucking truth. They both slept on their backs with their arms crossed over their chest.
00:05:10
Speaker
every night. Like vampires? Like fucking vampires. Their covers came up perfectly up to like they're just like just below their chest. Their hands were always peeking up over them and they were just flat on their backs. It was fucking weird. Dude, I could see them like turning the lights off and then in unison being like, now I lay me down to sleep. I know.
00:05:38
Speaker
And, uh, so they would, you know, they would wake up every morning who they didn't have the same class together, but they wanted, they were, they were in, they were being, they were in school to become teachers, teachers. They didn't talk, but they wanted to teach. So I don't know how that's going to work out, but the first one up would lay out the clothes for the other.
00:06:03
Speaker
So that way they could wear the same thing. And then when they walked to class, if you ever saw them walking around campus, it wasn't side by side. It was like the fucking, what's the Beatles album where they're all in a line walking. It's like- Oh, they walked one in front of the other? One in front of the other. They never walked together. It was always one directly behind the other. Dude, it just makes me like all signs point towards them being like,
00:06:30
Speaker
like aliens wearing some sort of like human suit that they signed off as someone like Earl in Men in Black or whatever. That's really what it felt like. I mean, the way the dorms are set up, I don't know how many other dorms are set up like this, but if you like walk in, you look on the left and you look on the right. On the left side is my bed and it's that loft. So it's like against the left wall, lofted with my desk underneath it.
00:06:59
Speaker
in the dead center of the dorm room was their desks facing each other. And then to the right was their bunk beds, so bottom bunk, top bunk. Because I had the lofted bed, every morning I would get out of bed and I would just like,
00:07:17
Speaker
sit up, scoop my butt to the edge of the bed, and then just kind of do a little, it was a quick, I mean, it's not lofted that high, right? So it was just a quick little like push. And it was probably like 18 inches from my feet to their desk. So I just push off, get my toes on the end of their desk and then just start my day. That's how I got out of bed every morning. And there was one morning where one of them had already gone to class.
00:07:43
Speaker
And the desk that I jumped on, the one adjacent to it was where one of my, I don't know which roommate sat at which desk. I didn't, I never knew the difference. How could you ever tell? Yeah. I didn't know the difference between Bill and Brian, but I, so he's sitting there eating his breakfast bowl of cereal. I'm surprised it wasn't like cream of wheat or something fucking blandy ass like that. But I jump off and just my toes, just the tips of my toes hit the desk.
00:08:12
Speaker
And I slip, I fall, and I land chest and face first down on the desk. The desks are pushed together. So one of them is sitting there eating breakfast, and I just flat on my fucking face on the desk. And I'm like, oh! Other people outside of my dorm room heard it and asked me what happened.
00:08:39
Speaker
My roommate didn't look up from his bowl of goddamn cereal to ask if I was okay. He was just like sitting there hoping you were dead, James. His cornflakes. Just like, thank God the outsider's gone. He didn't take a breath. I'm pretty sure I looked over and he's just like slurping his milk.
00:09:09
Speaker
There was yeah, that was a that was by far like the most bizarre People on the on the floor and there were some like characters in that dorm for sure. Oh,
Odd Roommates and Moving Off-Campus
00:09:22
Speaker
yeah. Do you remember? Jay Reed? Oh, yeah so Jay Reed was he was a great dude. He was really nice he was just strange and
00:09:38
Speaker
He was a rapper, and so he would constantly be trying to put together these rap songs, and he was actually going and recording them someplace in Lynchburg. I was the singer in this metal band, and so we get to talk it and stuff. This was uncomfortable.
00:10:03
Speaker
He says, he goes, hey man, I was wondering, you know, I'm putting together this song called Scars. And I want you to do your thing on it. I'm like, you want me to like scream on your rap song? And he's like, yeah, yeah, man, I want you to come in and like, you know, you do some like background effects and stuff and maybe a verse on this song. And I was like, I mean, that's, sure, you know, I do that, that sounds cool.
00:10:33
Speaker
And, uh, little did I know we were getting like way ahead of the crunk core trend. I was going to say, man, a lot of people tried moving into that territory. It was like the, uh, me and Jay Reed could have been like the original. Yeah, we could have been like the original blood on the dance floor or something like that. By far the most, uh, horrendous genre to like that. He on hot topic, like screaming rap. And, uh,
00:11:05
Speaker
Why did he call the song Scars? So I don't know what happened to him. I never got the story on it. Nobody did. He didn't really stream together sentences. You got one sentence out of him per topic, and then he's on to the next thing. But he would like, sometimes you have his shirt off, and he was covered in Scars all over.
00:11:34
Speaker
Like, I don't know what happened to him if they were surgical or if it was from like an accident or what, but he was coding. Yeah. I know. It was always, no one wanted to ask. I don't think in hindsight, it was like really dumb to not ask because he probably would have been like, how the fuck isn't anybody asking me about what happened to me? Like, we're all just like- I look like Deadpool from the neck down. Nobody says a thing.
00:11:57
Speaker
I'm just looking at it and he's like, just look him in the eyes, don't ask him. All I know is if my body was covered in scar. I broke my arm when I was 13 and I have a scar in my arm and forever I just wanted people to be like, well, what happened to your arm? Because who doesn't want to talk about themselves and tell about their accidents?
00:12:19
Speaker
It's like your second sentence after meeting someone is, I bet you're wondering about my arm. Yeah. And you can't see it. It's like, you really, I mean, it was, but I did every time for after it happened, like shortly, especially like the couple of years I was like,
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, probably a good two or three years after it, if I was wearing t-shirt, anytime people was like, whoa, why you got that scar on your arm? Let me tell you a story. It was interesting. I was the only kid in the history of the world who broke his arm. It was a cool break, but it was like...
00:12:52
Speaker
Just that was, that made me feel special. But people like to talk about, well, I shouldn't say everyone likes to talk about that stuff, but he obviously had a level of comfort with it because he would just walk around the door without a shirt on like everybody else. He was a confident guy, for sure. Yeah, he fucked.
00:13:11
Speaker
I think so like the song that he was doing it was like a beat that he had bought from this guy in town and it was a sampling of at the time remember like every hip-hop song was like a sample of something else
00:13:26
Speaker
It was like you take a popular song or an old song. That was like a, you know, how it started kind of thing. It seemed like at the moment, like at that point in time, like everything was a sample of another, a song from a different genre. This one was, I don't remember, who sings that song, We Were Meant to Live? I don't remember. We were meant to live for so much more. Was that Switchfoot?
00:13:55
Speaker
I think it was Switchfoot. You keep talking, I'm gonna Google.
00:13:59
Speaker
Okay, so it was a sampling of that song and he wanted me to just scream scars a bunch of times. So it made no sense in that context. Like it really didn't like play into the song at all. It was just awkward and weird. It's like this kind of like real chill rap beat him doing his awkward rapping and then me just in the background like scars.
00:14:31
Speaker
And to record it, he had this guy in town that he, and I think he had bought the beat from the guy, but the guy sold him the beats and then he would charge Jerry to come and, you know, record his raps and stuff. And so we went to like, you know, kind of a rough neighborhood, if I remember right. And hung out in this guy's house and there was a bunch of people there. And it was like, the dude had a contempt for Jerry.
00:14:57
Speaker
Oh, did he really? Oh, he did not like him. You could tell he was like, this was a this was just a money making venture for him because he was like one take. Yeah, it's good. Get out of here. Oh, you know, like it was so awkward. And the guy was really nice to me. Like he talked my leg off. And I don't know. It was. But yeah, I remember like this is like your band. You want to come record here? Do you think you guys want to record with me? Yes, our band wants to come record in your in your laundry room.
00:15:28
Speaker
It was just a microphone on top of his washer-dryer combo. But yeah, Jay Reid was proud of it. He played it a bunch. Oh, I remember hearing it. And I am going to look for that. I need to find it. If there's any way we can post that,
00:15:52
Speaker
It has. I've looked for it. I've looked for it before. I have not been able to find it. All right. Well, we're going to have to go through all our old college contacts until we get to Jay Reed and find it. You know, he still has it all. I'm like an iPod shuffle. I'm sure. I'll bet he does. Yeah. No, that was a crazy dorm. Like there was a lot of crazy stuff that went on in there.
00:16:17
Speaker
and our RA's were just chill about it. Yeah, I mean, it was, God, that was like, so anyway, we talked, when we were, I was talking about getting, getting off campus. It was after that experience of just living with the, the twins. And twins. I forgot about the, was it the, was it course? No. What, what beer had the twins?
00:16:47
Speaker
I have no idea. What? All right. Fuck it. Moving on. So after that experience, it was like a nightmare.
Liberty University Rules
00:16:55
Speaker
Usually you couldn't move off campus until you had, you know, I think you had to be like a junior or a certain age or some shit. And I was like, I sent an email to whoever could authorize it. I don't even remember who it was, but I was like, look,
00:17:11
Speaker
I was miserable this entire year. These are my roommates. They weren't fun. They made me uncomfortable. I don't have anyone to live with next year on the dorms. I am not gambling on terrible ass roommates again. I'll just leave. And they were like, okay, you can just move off. Don't tell anybody that we gave, like that you're an exception or whatever. Like, of course, like how do you not tell people you're moving off the dorm?
00:17:40
Speaker
So then, but you wanted to move off the door. And we were just talking about it. Like, we had started looking for places. And then it was like, right? It was at that time that you said you were moving it. Am I getting my timeline wrong?
00:18:01
Speaker
You must be because I moved off like the middle of my junior year. I did the fall semester in the circle and then I moved in with Tito. That's what it was. Okay, you just brought it back. I was trying to move off halfway through the year is what it was. You and I started looking for places and I was going to try to get off campus and then you were like,
00:18:26
Speaker
Yeah, sorry, I'm moving in with Tito because I forgot that that was in the middle of the year. I don't remember any of this. That's weird. You sure you weren't talking to the twins? Yeah, I was trying to get a place off campus with the twins. You don't remember, man. We kind of room together and you were just like, nah.
00:18:49
Speaker
I would have been all for it. That's when Jesse lived with you guys. And then it was after that, after I moved off campus is when I ended up living with Jesse. Yeah, it must have been. Yeah, I actually forgot you moved off in the middle of the year though. Yeah, well, both of my roommates left. They both they both left the school all together. And so
00:19:16
Speaker
I was kind of stuck. They put me in with two just random dudes. They were nice guys, but that's when I got the offer to move off with Tito, but yeah, I don't know. The rest was history. It was an awesome experience being a fifth wheel or whatever the fuck it was in that place. It's funny when you're at school, the dorm is so much fun.
00:19:45
Speaker
Until you start to decide that you would have more fun off-campus well, I think a lot of that at Liberty had to do with the fact that they had like a 10 p.m. Curfew on weekdays and you couldn't like Your girlfriend couldn't hang out with you and you're like there were so many dumb fucking rules at Liberty that like you even though you had a lot of fun on the dorms like you couldn't I
00:20:12
Speaker
You couldn't just live your life. Everyone felt like they had to move off. It's so strange to have kids that are finally
00:20:25
Speaker
you know, to the age of adulthood, they're leaving the house for the first time. And like, for some reason, you think the best thing for them would be to impose a bunch of rules that are stricter than the rules that they had at home. Oh, yeah. You know, in a lot of cases, I know, along with some of them being just stupid, like, like, not the sideburns are too long. Yeah, I got turned in on rated R movies.
00:20:51
Speaker
I can't remember if I told that story before, but somebody were out of the south.
00:20:59
Speaker
gone to Walmart to Redbox and I rented a movie. It was, I mean, I rented a radar movie and then the guy behind me after I rented it was like, I turn around and he's like, Hey man. I was like, fuck. Hey. And he's like, Hey, we have a class together, right? I was like, I'm not sure. He's like, I think we do. It's like, you're in my, uh, some Bible class. I was like, Oh yeah. Yeah, maybe.
00:21:24
Speaker
He was like, I'm pretty sure you are. It's like, you're, you're in this class. I was like, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I guess I am in that class. And he's like, Oh, well, I'm an RA and, uh, you just rented an R rated movie. So are you kidding me? Yeah, it's so dumb. He's like, he's like, I won't, I won't write you up if you just, you know, you just give me the movie and I'll return it for you and I won't write you up.
00:21:49
Speaker
give me the movie because I can't trust you to put this back because I told you to. Where is that guy now? What is that guy doing? He left the school and the framework that he thrived in because obviously
00:22:06
Speaker
like telling other dudes what to do got him all boned up. Oh, yeah. So I'm like, all right, dude, I gave it to him. He returned it. I went in my car. I waited for him to leave. And then I went back in and rented the same fucking movie because it was only a dollar. Like, of course, dude, you didn't save the fucking world.
00:22:28
Speaker
I just don't know, maybe some people mature out of that mindset. I think the rest of them must be, like I envisioned that guy being like the court urgent psychiatrist and the girl with the dragon tattoo.
00:22:47
Speaker
It's insane because, like, you don't have to do that. Like, nobody's going to recognize him recognizing me and then doing nothing about it and then tell somebody else. Nobody fucking cares. He knows, though. Exactly. And he couldn't live with those consciences. He can't live with that sin in his life. He's like he was entrusted with a responsibility. Yeah. And you know what? Hey, look.
00:23:14
Speaker
I'm with you, man. I don't agree with all these rules here, but the fact of the matter is that we signed a contract. We signed a moral code, and I'm just not in a place where I can disregard that commitment. Just like Jerry Jr., man. Yeah.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that guy is now one of those dentists that pulls kids teeth out for no reason. I remember afterwards, though, seeing him around campus, and he always tried to talk to me like, it's like he felt bad and wanted to make sure we were cool. He's like, Hey, how's it going, man? Like, it's fine.
00:24:00
Speaker
It's like, yeah, you've been good. I'm like, mm-hmm. It's like then you just leave. And he's like, every single time I saw him, he would try to spark a conversation. It's like, look, dude, you made me return a 99 cent radar movie that I just re-rented five seconds after you walked away. Like, I don't care about you. I don't need to have a conversation with you. Dude, he just wanted to witness to you so bad. It's weird that you need to be cool with me that bad.
00:24:31
Speaker
I was desperate, dude. I was desperate in college for people to like me and to be cool with me, and I was never that bad. Dude, he was trying to groom you. Yeah, I know. He groomed me to come join his dorm, probably. He's like, someday you'll thank me for this, Samuel. No, he's like, I'm going to be an RD someday, and I think I want you to be one of my RAs. That's grooming you. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, I just.
00:25:00
Speaker
I feel like there's certain times, you know, everybody has bad days and everybody does things that afterwards they regret, but once in a while somebody would do something like, have you ever had someone that you liked lose their temper at you like way too much? And from then on, like you just can't really not see them that way.
Childhood Friendships
00:25:25
Speaker
Oh my God.
00:25:27
Speaker
That there was a kid on the dorm that did that and like I really liked him But after this like he threw a fit over something that was so benign like screamed at me like dressed me down in the dorm and It was so ridiculous like from that point forward I never really hung out with him much after that because I just felt like I
00:25:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah, you showed your cards like that's, that's the guy that you are like, I don't, I just can't really be cool with you after that. I have a much more ridiculously childish version of that story. And I had this friend named Ian when I went to Christian school, I was in first, first
00:26:16
Speaker
In second grade, I would have said he was my best friend because I didn't know what friends were at that time in my life. And I would go over his house and he was the kind of kid that you would play street fighter, like Mortal Kombat at his house. But he was always an asshole, always so fucking mean to me and made me feel like shit all the time. And I would leave him like, I don't know why I'm friends with him, but then he would be nice to me in school and then ask if I wanted to come over and hang out.
00:26:44
Speaker
And then I'd come over and then he'd be like, just make fun of me. And that made me feel bad, but also like no one else was asking me to go over their house. So I was like, yeah, he's my best friend. And then this is the last time I ever saw him. Probably it would have been, I think it might've been after I was like done going to school. So maybe third grade.
00:27:11
Speaker
You remember those white poppers? They came in a box and you would just throw them on the ground and they'd snap? Oh yeah, yeah. And you used to put them between your fingers and you would snap your fingers and make them go off between them? Uh-huh. Those were scary to me because I was a baby.
00:27:30
Speaker
He had a box of them. And he was like showing me like, oh, yeah, just do it. And he's like, snap his finger and go off and be like, oh, I don't know. I can't. I'm scared. I'm not doing it. And he was like, you're a baby. And I was like, ah, I just don't want to do it. And then he started throwing them at me. And I'm like, like, you know when someone points a rubber band at your face and you just cower and you can't help it? Yeah.
00:27:54
Speaker
I would I would just do that. I'm like like cowering shivering looking away from and he's just like he's just like dance monkey dance like jokingly like he probably thought he was being funny and I was just being the biggest fucking puss on the planet and So a combination of me being wildly sensitive and him being a dick made me after that never talked to him again until it was like
00:28:24
Speaker
I had to have been 13 or 12, maybe 12. But it was, I only know it because this is when I lived on Cape Cod and it was before we moved. I was at a doctor's appointment and I came home and my brother was like, Ian came over, he lived close enough where he was like, Ian came over, like rode his bike over and like asked if you still lived here.
00:28:55
Speaker
I guess he wanted to hang out, and I was like, oh. And then I never reached out. That was it. That was the last time. He's probably wondering why I never talked to him again. Maybe he felt like shit about that whole thing. Probably not, because I think he might have been a sociopath in some way. So anyway, he showed his cards that day, and he lost a friend.
00:29:24
Speaker
Yeah, sometimes you just got to close the books on a person. Just don't need you around, man.
Bianca's Experiences with Master's Commission
00:29:32
Speaker
Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, boy. So our guest this week is a friend of a friend that I got to talking to through social media, and she had
00:29:46
Speaker
been a part of an organization that I'd never heard of. She started telling me a little bit about it. I watched a couple of videos and I was like, Oh man, yeah, we got to hear about this. So she's got a really interesting story and
00:30:02
Speaker
experienced some very strange things, but just has like a really great outlook on it. And I love hearing from people who had bad experiences or weird experiences or could justify being really angry and bitter.
00:30:21
Speaker
But they choose to like find the good things about it you know not brush over the bad not excuse what was done that was wrong or was you know in.
00:30:33
Speaker
improper or whatever, but just, you know, come to grips with the fact that like, this is these are people that are making these decisions. Maybe they thought they were doing the right thing. Either way, this was the parts of this that I enjoyed and thought were good experiences. So I think you're really going to enjoy Bianca's story. And we had a lot of fun talking to her.
00:30:56
Speaker
Yeah, so if you, you know, talk to, we're having Bianca on now, you know, a little while ago we had on Jenna who had another wild story. Honestly, if you have, I don't know, can't promise it'll come to anything. Don't want to make any empty promises. But if you have crazy stories, send them to us. If anything, it'd be super fun to read some of them if you have like a good narrative behind it.
00:31:21
Speaker
Just shoot us an email, gucpodcastatgmail.com. Tell us some weird shit and we might read it at the top of the episode.
00:31:32
Speaker
Maybe we'll have you on to talk about it. Who knows? If you were in a cult, I want to hear about it. If you were in the FLDS or the People's Temple, nobody that listens to this was in the People's Temple, but the Family International, you name it. If you were in a cult of some sort or something people describe as a cult,
00:31:55
Speaker
reach out to me because I would be fascinated to hear from you. Yeah. And lastly, please, if you can, if you can spare a few moments of your time, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or
00:32:11
Speaker
Again, I think that's the only one that takes reviews. But just leave us a review, say something nice, get some more stars up in there, some more five-star reviews, and hopefully we can keep this thing going. Do all that stuff for us, please, and thank you, and enjoy our conversation with Bianca. And we're back with a friend of a friend and new friend of me, Bianca. How you doing, Bianca? Oh, so good. Howdy, y'all.
00:32:41
Speaker
So one of my best friends is, uh, uh, we have a mutual friend in him and through, uh, you know, grapevine interactions, we kind of got to talking and, uh, you told me a little bit about your story and it sounds incredible. So we were really excited to talk to you.
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah. So have either of you guys heard of master's commission? Like, is this, is this a thing that people know about or? I have zero familiarity with it. It was a brand new string of words for me. Okay. So it was sold as like in my youth group, it was sold as this like really cool after high school, instead of going to college, cause I was going to go to Liberty actually. And I was thinking about going to a few places and I was like, Oh, what, what do I want to do?
00:33:30
Speaker
And, you know, the youth group, my youth pastor at the time, I was super involved in youth group. He was like, oh, have you heard of master's commission? It's this like intense discipleship program and you go on mission trips and you do this thing. And it was this, like they did like routines, like play routines and they did like stomp. Do you remember stomp when that was a big thing? Like with trash can lids? Like they came in and did that. Oh yeah. And it was like, cool. I was like, I want to be those people. Did they have a notable founder?
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah. So, well, sort of, there's kind of some, there's some discrepancy with that. But so Phoenix, so Phoenix first assembly of God, I think is in its assemblies of God kind of thing. But they're the ones who like kind of started it. And then
00:34:14
Speaker
Yeah. So what's his name? Lloyd Floyd. I don't remember his name. Anyways, but we would do this annual trip to Phoenix. And like it was like the Mecca, like every master's commission came down once a year to Phoenix and did like a voyage to there. Anyways,
00:34:32
Speaker
But yeah, it was sold as this like really cool intense disciples thing where you'd go on mission trips and you'd like minister to people and all this stuff and So naturally I was like, yeah, we get to go travel and we get to go do fun stuff Yeah, I want to you know, yeah, I want to do that so So yeah, it was that's that's how it was kind of sold to our youth group And then I had a friend who was going so I was like, yeah, I'm down. I'm down to go. I
00:34:57
Speaker
Is it so Lloyd and Chris Zeigler? Ziegler. Yeah, that's what it was. Ziegler. Yeah. Yeah. Those names don't sound familiar. And I think they were kind of, so the master's commission program that I went to had just been taken over by somebody new, but the person before me was really intense, like militant intense. And I think he was more, um,
00:35:23
Speaker
from what I've gathered from people who were like the class before me, it was like really intense, really traumatic, all that kind of thing, which they're looking back now. I'm like, we did some really weird stuff. Like we might've been zip tied one time. We might've been.
00:35:39
Speaker
you know, taken to in a van and we didn't know what we were doing, we might have been forced to stay up all night. And it's very cult-like. Like a lot of people look at Master's question, they're like, oh, it's a cult. And it's like, no, it's not. But I could see where people think that. But now being like, fair-minded and looking. That's what people say when they're in cult. And it just has some definitely like cult tendencies for sure, for sure, for sure. It's like someone explaining to you that they're
00:36:07
Speaker
MSM isn't a pyramid scheme. Yes, absolutely. So yeah, it's like the inverted funnel. Yeah, absolutely. And when I hear people talk about it, I'll say this when I hear people talk about master's question, because a lot of people have had bad experiences, you know, it's kind of like anything, like you don't hear about good experiences, you hear about bad experiences, you know, from restaurants and things like that, you know, so I feel like a lot of people talk about it. It's a bad experience for me. It was
00:36:36
Speaker
Looking back now, I see the bad, I see the good. I see where they were trying to figure things out. I see what they were trying to do. Was it all great? No, but I'm kind of level-headed enough to see through that. Whereas some people, I think, they had bad experiences and rightly so.
00:36:56
Speaker
So what they were trying to do was it was like, so you mentioned it's kind of like a missions thing. It was like, what was the, uh, what was like their mission statement? What was the intent of this program? I think I want to say it was to know God and make him known, which that just rolled off. So I think that was it. What is it when you like activate somebody, the U S government, you just triggered the man cherry and cut up Canada.
00:37:26
Speaker
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what just happened. So to know God and make Him not know. Like when I went to Master's Commission, I was like, I'm going to be a missionary. I'm going to like do this thing. And then it was sold as two. You could get, you're like a Berean Bible. So it was affiliated with some ways of God. So you could be like a pastor in two years.
00:37:46
Speaker
No, so you could get your Bible degree or Berean, I think is what it was called, but you can get your pastor certificate in two years. So some people just went just so that they could get their pastoral certificate and then they could move on to bigger and better things like become a pastor and go through the Assemblies of God and things like that. Are you guys familiar with the Assemblies of God at all?
00:38:09
Speaker
Yeah. I'm only vaguely familiar. I knew people who were part of it. I it's, is that, um, that one's like somewhat Pentecostally, right? Is it like charismatic and shit? Yeah. The biggest Pentecostal charismatic, like yes. Group denomination there is. So yeah. Yeah.
00:38:27
Speaker
Well, so OK, so let's let's put a pin in in Master's Commission for just a second. Can you kind of walk us through growing up? So I grew up super Christian. So my mom was part of the like Jesus movement. So when I was born, she became a Christian. It was like a whole you need to go off and do this discipleship thing. So her and my aunt like did a whole thing, went to carry the name of it. But it was like somewhere where you go off to.
00:38:53
Speaker
and get discipleship and stuff. So she did that. So I grew up literally sleeping at her church pews, going to youth group, doing the whole shebang every day, every night of the week. Well, my whole life. But every day of the week, we were at church. We were at church and we were doing a thing. And we grew up in a super Pentecostal, people screaming down the aisles kind of church.
00:39:22
Speaker
And um, is that where you learned to do backflips? Yeah, that's where I learned to do backflips Know y'all. Okay, real story one time Um, whether y'all want to share this or not, it's just funny and I just thought of it So we're at church one time and i'm like nine years old and we had just gone to this new church and my mom she is a character to say the least but she um
00:39:44
Speaker
She's at this church and she's singing in the worship band, which is a thing. She's singing in the worship band. And she had this feeling and this word from the Lord. So she's like, I need to give this word from the Lord. And it was about being transparent and honesty. Well, at that time, and still today, she wears wigs.
00:40:03
Speaker
like, you know, like wigs on your head. So she's giving this like word from the Lord and she's like, I just really feel like the church needs to be honest and the church needs to be authentic. And she was like, we need to come before the Lord like this. And she gets her wig. This is like, she's on the stage. She takes it off, right? So you know how people look when they don't have wigs on. And like that, that's my mom. She's just like, no wig, matted hair. And she was like, and everybody's like,
00:40:28
Speaker
Anyways, that is my mother. That is what I grew up with and that sums up Christianity as a child for me. It was like, but yeah. Intense. What part of the country? In Texas. I'm born and raised in Texas. I lived in the Bible Belt, which was like Northeast Texas. It was a dry county. You can't buy liquor. There's a church on every corner. It's just like what you did. It seems like a-
00:40:57
Speaker
Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. Did you have, was your dad involved in the church too? Did you have, what's the dynamic? No, okay. So that was like a constant thing in my childhood was so I moved away from my dad and it was always like, we're praying for your dad because he needs Jesus kind of thing, you know, which eventually he actually did find Jesus. And so that's been really good for him, you know, to each his own. But yeah, so no, my mom like kind of took me away and we kind of did our own thing with my aunt and then, yeah, so. Okay.
00:41:28
Speaker
It seems like that whole Jesus movement thing like it was like started in California. Yes. And then, yeah, like a lot of the extreme groups that were involved in that because that's a that's a real mixed bag. Plenty of normal, decent stuff came out of that. And then there was the others. Yeah. And a lot of them went through Texas like
00:41:52
Speaker
Oh man, there's so many children of God went through Texas, whichever one unnecessary tangent, but serial killer was Henry Lee Lucas. Henry Lee Lucas, we talk about him all the time at work.
00:42:12
Speaker
That's so funny. My aunt was a part of that California Jesus movement. Then she of course called my mom in Texas and was like, you need to come do this, blah, blah, blah. This was 1984 or five.
00:42:28
Speaker
So yeah, it was it was a big deal. So I definitely grew up Christian, you know, I was but but my mom was a single parent. So it was like, you know, we always look to the church like we were always at the church helping or getting free stuff from the church because we didn't have very much money or like we would help in there. There was this we had this building at the church that was like for the people in need. And so we were always helping there to like give people need. But then we would like Loki take some groceries at the end, you know, so
00:42:58
Speaker
We were definitely like that family. Well, I feel like
00:43:05
Speaker
if you're that family that invests back into the church, then that's kind of like the point of those programs, I feel like. Yeah. It's like you invest in the church, your time and your work and your effort and sweat. And in return, like the church helps out with your basic needs. I mean, that's like the kind of stuff where I feel like churches are at their best is when they're, it's a community that's taking care of its own.
00:43:31
Speaker
Yeah. And I agree. And that's why like, I don't have any, I'm not somebody who's like, Oh, I hate the church or I hate what it's doing. Or I think every organization, every big organization, any organization gets things wrong. And I'm human, I get a lot of things wrong. And so
00:43:50
Speaker
Yeah, do we get a lot of things wrong? Absolutely. But do we get a lot of things right? And do we care for people? And do we love people? And do we do this? Then yeah, I think I think we get that right a lot of times too. So I think you got to eat the meats, put out the bones a lot of times. So church was very important to you in a personal level too, then whole childhood.
00:44:10
Speaker
Yeah, so I, that is where all my social circle was at. Like middle school, that is, it was like church, you know, group and other church groups. And yeah, so that's how I found out about Master's Commission was through my youth group. And that was, I am very like social, if y'all haven't noticed. And so it's like, wherever that social circle was, like I was gonna be. So if it was all at church, then that's what we're doing, that's what we're doing. And if it's motorcycles or whatever, so.
00:44:41
Speaker
What was your school situation, being social and having such a social circle within the church? Did you have your public school thing and then the church, and then you had to pick between two worlds, if that even occurred to you? Yeah. I grew up in public school in San Antonio, which is a huge city, San Antonio, Texas.
00:45:01
Speaker
And then when I was nine, I moved to a very small town, Bible Belt, Northeast Texas. And that was my mom, well, my aunt was like, oh, you should put her in private school.
00:45:15
Speaker
And so of course my mom being like, yeah, we should do that. So they put me in this Christian private school. And that was interesting because I was like in this very Northeast Texas, very white, very suburban area. And I was like literally the only like Latin person in the entire school. And so that in itself was like its own own experience. And we were like,
00:45:44
Speaker
So to pay for this tuition, my mom was like, oh, well, I'll clean the church. So it had a lot of stigma on it. It was like, oh, we're like the cleaning people for the church and we went here. And, you know, like there was just like kind of all that weirdness. So and everybody that had gone to that school had gone to that school since they were like kindergarten. So and I came in at like fifth grade. So it was like, oh, hey, I'm the new person. And I'm like, not white. And this is weird. And I don't even know, you know. So but I went there from fifth grade to eighth grade.
00:46:14
Speaker
And then in ninth grade, I was like, I got to go back to public school. So I convinced my mom to put me back in public school. And that was another fiasco, because then I realized that that was just the culture of the area that we lived in, like this northeast Texas. It wasn't just the church. It was just the culture. So I went to that school, and I didn't fit in anywhere. I was like, well, the white people don't like me, and the Mexicans don't like me, and this is awkward. I don't know what to do. Take me out of here.
00:46:45
Speaker
That's exactly what it is. Yes. If you've been to Texarkana, yes, that's exactly, Casey, what it is. You guys have a great serial killer. Yes. It was before our time. Never caught.
00:46:59
Speaker
Um, I don't remember his name, but yeah, no, it's very backwoods very yeah country bumpkin Yeah, so that's that's kind of what that was like. So then when I found youth group, it was like oh I found people like I found people that actually like accept to me and my youth pastor was really awesome so of course I got really engaged just because
00:47:21
Speaker
these people I could like jive with and it was fun and it was somewhere where I could like be myself kind of so for me youth group was like the the shit because it was like I had people you know so so the worst I mean with the culture being super Christian like when you said you started going to public school and the culture was it was just that was the culture I imagine
00:47:44
Speaker
it was a pretty just religious like at least pseudo religious culture like it was like shifting from Christian school to public school everyone's still like probably involved in a church in some way or yeah it was really the same it was it's funny how everyone's Christian everyone
00:48:01
Speaker
Doesn't matter if you're smoking pot, doesn't matter if you're doing coke in the bathroom, doesn't matter if you're what you're doing. Everyone's Christian and it goes to church on Sunday. Not just as they're Christian, but they're going to be there. And that was the culture. You could get drunk on Saturday, you could do whatever you want, but then on Sunday, you better be at church.
00:48:22
Speaker
I could see Texark, like East Texas, I worked in East Texas a bunch over the past like six or seven years here. And, uh, I could see that being a really challenging to be a person who's, who's not white in those environments. Like I East Texas Carthage, you know, Carthage.
00:48:42
Speaker
Oh, I know Carthage. So if you know Carthage, that's long view, man. Carthage is the last place in my memory banks where I heard aggressive n-word usage.
00:48:56
Speaker
Yeah, that is, that's long view. Yeah. It was like hair on the back of your neck stand. We were doing a cold call. So we're there in a work context, you know, we go in to talk to this. It's two brothers that own this, uh, this like Jiffy loop type place. And, uh, they weren't from there. They were from New York or, or they traveled back and forth from New York or something. But this guy.
00:49:21
Speaker
It was bizarre man. It was two brothers. They were kind of like, kind of like Jersey Shore looking guys. Like they look like they really idolized those dudes. Same hair and all that. And the one dude was a quote unquote model. And in the waiting room of the shop, he had a picture of him.
00:49:41
Speaker
shirtless hanging in the waiting room. In his own waiting room, he had a picture of himself. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. And the guy came down and we're talking to him and stuff about all the things that we sell and everything. And he's like, yeah, well, that stuff's never going to work around here because
00:50:02
Speaker
bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep, bleep. And we were just like, oh, where are we? You're like, am I about to get shot? Yeah, it's very much. It's very close minded. It's very much if it ain't if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And and nothing changes and nothing moves and everything stays still and stagnant. And anybody who tries to start a new business, it basically fails.
00:50:25
Speaker
Because nobody likes new you know so that is that is like that small East Texas Culture so yeah, it's great. It's great
00:50:35
Speaker
So youth group, was that kind of like a sanctuary from that to some extent? Absolutely. And so when my youth pastor was like, hey, you should, you know, he was, they were super awesome. Like my, that youth pastor and youth pastor's wife, like I, I mean, even today I'm like, they were amazing people. They genuinely were like just trying to help kids and genuinely like providing a space to like love on them and
00:51:00
Speaker
And that's it. And they were just trying to be like include everybody. I'm like, those are the kind of Christians and those are the kind of people that I'm like, hey, you're doing it right. You're doing great. Like keep keep doing that because I just felt like they really did that well. But yeah, they were they were like, Oh, you should go to you should go here. You should go to master's commission. You should do this. And so I was like, okay, then I should do that. Let me do that. So so master's commission when they were actively like recruiting young people, they had like a team or something that went out to youth groups.
00:51:30
Speaker
Yeah. And so then there was like a whole application process. So there, and it's like this extensive application and you have to, and it's, and it, you know, it's kind of like applying for college or like applying for this thing. And you're like, am I, am I going to get this? Am I going to like be in? Um, so you have to fill out all this stuff and do this thing and, you know, submit it. And then you're like, well, am I going to get accepted?
00:51:52
Speaker
So I did, and I was like, oh, I got accepted, so I need to go to this. I later found out that basically everyone gets accepted. At that point, they were just looking for people to apply, and then they would take them, which I get, but they're in the application process. Do you pay for this for being in college?
00:52:13
Speaker
Yeah, so it was like, so there's no scholarships or anything. And yeah, it's like five grand. I think it was five grand. I was trying to think about how much it was.
00:52:23
Speaker
It was either five or six grand because they provided like dorms and housing and that would pay for your food and that would pay for, you know, your basic needs. But basically what master's commission like was they focused on like what you like servant leadership kind of thing.
00:52:44
Speaker
So it was housed at a church, and so the church had a dorm. And so we were kind of like workers for the church. So every afternoon, we would go do church work, and we would help with the youth group, and we would create their props, and we would help with this or that or maintenance. We would trim hedges, and we would garden the garden, and it was kind of like, hey, this is what servant leadership is. It's like a year-long domestic missions trip.
00:53:12
Speaker
Yeah, basically. And so that's kind of what we did. And then every morning we would like have to, like our schedule was like get up for prayer in the morning at eight, which I always was like asleep in. And I'm just like trying to stay awake because we had stayed up so late the night before doing whatever task we needed to do. And then it was like the Bible school portion. And then it was like help the church do whatever. And then you were assigned like a thing. So if you were assigned like the missions team or the administrative team,
00:53:41
Speaker
or the grounds keeping team or whatever the youth group team. And you would go do these different teams. So like the missions team, you would go call churches and ask if they wanted us to come and do these like skits and plays like a little like traveling circus kind of thing. We would go to these like churches and do these like performances like the stomp performance. Like there's a video out on YouTube right now of me like doing like shaking some trash can lids around.
00:54:08
Speaker
I got to see that. I know, right? But yeah, it was like that. And I think we we did that, I think, for recruiting. And that was kind of like a ministry in a way. Sort of, you know, you know who like this reminds me of, like some of this model is Pensacola Christian College. Oh, we don't know. Oh, did you? Did they ever send reps to your school or youth group or anything?
00:54:36
Speaker
So they sent reps to our youth group. And then in our youth group, we went there to Pensacola College and yeah, absolutely. Like we would do like human, do you guys know what human videos are? Do you know this? Do you know this? Okay, you mentioned these to me and I looked them up on YouTube and so uncomfortable. Like it was just the most bizarre things ever.
00:55:00
Speaker
So we would go into like high schools. So part of them like missions team, we would call schools like of all sorts, like not Christian schools. And we'd be like, Hey, do you want us to like come in and do this thing? And we couldn't, you know, like say God or Jesus or whatever. So instead we would do like these like human videos, where it would be like this cool song that was like secular, right?
00:55:23
Speaker
but we would do this like human video, like Jesus thing, cross to it. And then we'd be like, hey, if you want to come hang out with us, we're going to be over here. And we'd invite them to like this address, which would be like a youth group at a church and be like, hey, come hang with us. And it was our way of like ministering or whatever to, to like secular people, you know, trying to like win the loss as you always are doing when you're a Christian, you know? And so, yeah, so that would be like a thing we did when we like went on mission.
00:55:52
Speaker
It's kind of like interpretive dance set to a modern song. It is. Actually, we did some pretty cool ones. There's a few times because we're always trying to be edgy. I can't remember what song it was, but it was like a secular song, but we did a whole dance routine to it.
00:56:10
Speaker
And so like people saw us and they're like, oh, they're cool. Like I want to be them. I want to go find out about them. So we were like kind of always on the edge of like trying to be cool so you could kind of come be like us. But really, we were Christians. So like that bam, bam, you know, surprise. That's very Jesus movement. It's like have a traveling hippie band that performs at the beach and then you sucker people into coming back to the. Yeah, you sucker with one.
00:56:38
Speaker
Did you ever have like the people who came, did you ever have people who had no affiliation with a Christian background or like a Christian culture be like, I'm really interested in this? Or was it very much like people who had an understanding of it that were kind of like took that as an opportunity to like really just jump in? I think as far as like when we went to youth groups and stuff, is that what you're asking?
00:57:08
Speaker
Well, you said you went to like some school. Did you go to schools and stuff too? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We went to schools too. So that's what I'm asking. So at schools, people would come. Like when we would do a thing and be like, Hey, come to this thing. They would, they would come. And then they would be like, Oh, this is like a church thing. Cool. This is cool. But here, here's the downfall about that is that then we were gone the next week.
00:57:30
Speaker
So then we were like the cool kids were gone and then it was like, hey, bye, have fun. You didn't just kidnap all the ones who were interested? No, but we should have. So let me tell you guys about my kidnapping story, actually. So one morning we're sitting in like prayer. So every morning we had prayer at like 8 a.m. So we're sitting in prayer.
00:57:54
Speaker
You know, I'm half asleep because I never stayed awake. And so all of a sudden, some people come into the church because we're in the church bring, they come in with masks on, they come in with guns, they come in with everything. Yeah, this is like a real like, we don't know any different, right? No, this is really a thing. They come in, they kidnap us, they blindfold us, they zip tie our hands and they put us in a van.
00:58:17
Speaker
And we don't know any, like we don't know what's going on. And I mean, it's serious in all of our world because we're like, what? We always talk about the persecuted church, right? That's the thing. But we've never like experienced this. And so we're like in this van, I vividly remember we're zip tied, hands are zip tied, like blindfold. And like a few people are crying. I'm just like sitting there observing it. But a few people are like, like crying. And then we hear like somebody getting hit, somebody getting beat. We're like,
00:58:47
Speaker
Okay, this is intense like what's going on. Yeah, this is this is really happened. So oh my god So we we then get to this like outside area we walk in a field we have guns pointed at our backs like we're just like
00:59:03
Speaker
what is happening. And it's very real. And then they're like, then they start talking about like, do you love Jesus? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Give up your faith, right? I know. I know. I don't know. Sam everything at your reaction right now said everything. Yes. So then to come to find out the whole thing is just like,
00:59:25
Speaker
Like a play to kind of see like how are we gonna respond if somebody questions our faith? How are you gonna respond if somebody puts you in that predicament? How are you and it's just like I don't know that was the healthiest thing. That is insane. What? That is far from it's like the opposite of healthy that is so traumatizing and damaging it also if someone points a gun like I remember that feeling as a kid like
00:59:51
Speaker
being told because uh what's it's like a bible verse it's like if like when jesus says like if you denounce i don't know deny the father then i'll deny you whatever so you're like always like oh if that's your last minute feel like i do do you believe in jesus christ as your lord saving you're like oh no and then they then you have to like live with that and you're like i'm probably going to hell you either just get shot in the fucking forehead or you go to hell for all the
01:00:20
Speaker
Okay, I need that line that Sam just said to be like the intro to this whole podcast. And the fucking board had to do that. Churches at that time, and I don't know, maybe some of them still are, but they were obsessed with this idea that someone was going to point a gun in your face and command you to
01:00:45
Speaker
Deny Jesus in front of it was like they were obsessed with that Columbine story. I don't even know if that's completely factual the way it was told us and stuff.
01:00:56
Speaker
Well, and I think there was a big fear and I don't know where that stems from. I'd be really curious. So when the interview you guys did with Bethany, I don't remember her last name. Slater. Yes. Bethany Slater. That was, that was a really good one. Um, I, you know, listening to that interview, which I loved how much it, it made me as a Christian. So I, I'm, I call myself a Christian. Like today I would say like, I,
01:01:22
Speaker
love and believe in Jesus. It really made me like kind of look at myself and think about a lot of things which I loved. I'm like, I love that she's like making me think about so many things. But one one of the things is like that, like why is
01:01:37
Speaker
The way things are, why was that such a big deal? Why was it such a big deal for that time in Christianity, for people to be like, if
Extreme Experiences and Haunted Houses
01:01:48
Speaker
you're gonna be persecuted, you need to know how you're gonna stand and what brought that on. That it was so, you know, I don't know, I wanna know the backstory of that.
01:01:58
Speaker
Especially when you know, Peter denied Jesus three times and still want to do some good shit. So like I'm really banking on that Tim. So if you get three chances, if you don't do it a fourth time though, it's just getting out. You're going to hell. Did you ever read Jesus freaks?
01:02:20
Speaker
I did. I read Jesus Freak. I listened to DC Talk. I listened to all the things. By the way, The Kiss Dating Goodbye read that book. That was a good interview, by the way, also. But yeah. Man, that's one of the craziest youth group stories I've ever heard. That's just absolutely nuts. That should be a crime, right? That has to actually be an illegal act.
01:02:46
Speaker
Well, yeah, well, but here was the thing. Here was the thing, though. So it was in Master's Commission. So in Master's in the waiver you signed when you. Yeah, no, it was. It was kind of like whatever they said was the rule. There was no I mean, like we'd OK. So another thing that we did, let me tell you guys, was called House of Fear, which was this like. I'm sure you can guess this very Christian, but you didn't know haunted house.
01:03:16
Speaker
And so, yeah, Hill House, very similar, yeah. So it was like we had people shooting up the place, we had the little girl from, what's the girl, the creepy girl? The ring? Yes, the ring girl. With Samara? With Amara?
01:03:34
Speaker
Yeah, we had the ring girl we had that we I mean that we funded this right? So it's all this money we had sold tickets We got lots of poison ivy because we tried to decorate the whole building and ivy and it was all poison anyways, and so but then but then towards the end of the of the of the House of fear, you know, it's like hey if what if you died tonight and blah blah blah blah like so that was a whole thing we did like it was
01:04:01
Speaker
Yeah, and we stayed up like till four in the morning every night and then we're up at six in the morning, like doing anything. So we're just like, we're machines, workhouses. It was intense. Was there an abortion exhibit in your haunted house? Yes, there was an abortion exhibit. You know, I'm trying to remember what that one was. I think it was actually, I think it was a car wreck.
01:04:28
Speaker
No, it was like a car wreck and then an abortion. I don't know, there was lots of scenes. It was actually a pretty decent haunted house, I will say. I was pretty proud of it.
01:04:38
Speaker
But I remember, so we would have, we worked on this every night for months, right? And we would have this time where the director would say that it's like, whenever you heard, what is the name of that song? The Rocky song. The... Eye of the Tiger. Thank you. Eye of the Tiger. So whenever Eye of the Tiger came on, you had to run everywhere. There was no like we would be working, but then when Eye of the Tiger came on, you had to run.
01:05:03
Speaker
Like whatever you were doing, it was run and do that, do this fast, do this fast. So we're like getting ready for this, you know, House of Fear. And it was like, I the Tiger would come on every five songs like we learned. Because I was like, that's what would keep us awake to like do this thing. So we're very much like little workhorses. Yeah.
01:05:22
Speaker
This is a little bit of a pivot. Oh, I love this. It's just, it's a detour. It's in the haunted house theme though. Do you guys, are either of you familiar with the McKay Manor or Macamy or something like that? McKay, Macamy? Never heard of it. It's like this guy started this haunted house where he has like a, he'll give you like, it's like one person goes through the time. There's like a huge waiting list for it. You have to be 21 up. You sign a waiver. And if, if you,
01:05:52
Speaker
If you get through it, he will give you $20,000. He's just this weird rich guy. Okay. I know a little, I think, about this. It's way over the top. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's physically violent. They will actually harm you to a certain degree. What is it called? The McVee? What is it? It's McNamee or something like that? McNamee Manor.
01:06:25
Speaker
I just like, I don't know. Every time I think of haunted houses, that's the first thing that comes to my mind because.
01:06:32
Speaker
There's this feeling of, I bet I can do that. There's so few people who have this strong enough will to even, even knowing it's fake, just the feeling of even any degree of physical harm. You could just poke me with a stick and I'd think you just got me with a hot poker and I'm about to die. And it would be immediately over. Well, it's like everybody, every youth group, every school group had over the top guy.
01:06:58
Speaker
You know, you guys have over the top guy. Absolutely. Steven, his name was. Oh, absolutely. His name was Adam. Oh, he was like.
01:07:12
Speaker
Let's just say he was a couple cars short of a deck and he hurt someone at every activity. He would end up with somebody crying because he like bust him. Like one time we went to, there was this thing in Michigan called Domino's Farms and it was some sort of
01:07:31
Speaker
Domino's Pizza headquarters or something and their big claim to fame was every year they did this super extravagant Christmas-like display that you drove through.
01:07:41
Speaker
I remember we did a youth group activity there where we drove through and then we were going to have delicious Domino's pizza that's been sitting there all day. I was in the back of the church van like some of my buddies and I were back there and Adam is in like the next seat up.
01:08:01
Speaker
And we're like goofing around and stuff. I made fun of him for something. And, you know, the middle seat always had that long seat buckle with the big mass on the end of it. So he takes that and just wails me in the head with it. I mean, like, I'm surprised it didn't split my head open. He hit me so hard, like just right. I just, he's over the top guy.
01:08:30
Speaker
He's like that guy like, you definitely know that when he got married, he shoved cake in his bride's hair for sure. I could think of a few more places, but yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure his hair. The dude that aggressively dunks people at the pool party to the point where people are coughing and choking. I'm drowning. He's like, oh, let's keep going. That's funny.
01:08:58
Speaker
That's the guy I would worry about in the haunted house, though. The guy that actually skewers you with a poker or stabs you with the key. Funny you say that. We had an over-the-top guy in the haunted house. We'll just call him Paul. Paul, we were cleaning up some stuff one day and he thought, I don't know where he got this idea from, but Casey, you probably know because I feel like this is a little bit of your business.
01:09:27
Speaker
that if you light diesel fuel on fire, that it will just clean up and it won't burn anything. It just like evaporates.
01:09:40
Speaker
But that's not the case. That's not the case at all. That's not the case. That's why you're giving me these looks. It's the opposite of that. It's the opposite. It's the opposite. Yep. That's the right answer. So he put diesel all over. And then he lit it on fire because he thought that somehow it would just evaporate and go away. And it caused a fire. That's over the top guy. That happened. Did anybody get hurt?
01:10:07
Speaker
No, we we like immediately because it was like while we were like doing like setting up So I was like, no, what are you doing? What what are you doing? Like and yeah, we immediately put it out So yeah burned the ceiling carpet in the church van. Yeah, he was like, no, I thought this would clean up Somebody told me it like evaporates right up and it's like that's not how that works
01:10:29
Speaker
Um, but yeah, so wait, did you, did you guys, I don't remember. So in Liberty, um, Sam, did you go to Liberty too? No. Yes, you did. Both of y'all did. So, so in master's commission, like you could not, um, be in the same room with the opposite sex or.
01:10:45
Speaker
alone with the opposite sex alone. Yeah. No, anything. You couldn't do anything. You had to be in like groups if you were going to be in the opposite sex. But even then, if you like, like we could not date the opposite sex our whole first year in master's commission. Like that's not allowed. You're not allowed. Like more than six people, more than six. So you'd have to have
01:11:08
Speaker
You got to rule out three sums, four sums, five sums. Well, dude, three couples came together on a thing. I know. Yeah, unfortunately, that never happened. I didn't think about that till now. But yeah, so wait, you guys could date people. Because y'all were ringing before spring, right? Is that what you were trying to do? Trying to lock them heads up? Yeah, heavy emphasis on finding it.
01:11:36
Speaker
It was at the same time, it was like, don't date anyone because you should focus on God. And on the other hand, like, you should just, you should get married. Marry someone. Marry someone now. Like do it now. Marry someone when you're 19, when you don't know shit. Yes. I think we all had those friends that sabotaged decent relationships because they were, went too far that one night and thought they needed to break up and focus. Yes.
01:12:01
Speaker
Yes, and you're like, oh my gosh, I sinned. I made out too much and I'm a sinful person. Now I'm shameful about it. And now I need to break up with you because we have, we've crossed the line. Like this is not honoring God. Absolutely. I know. I think about like the guilt and the shame, so much shame, I feel like was a part of that world. Okay. So
01:12:26
Speaker
Fast forward, I got kicked out of Bible school at a master's commission because, yeah, juicy, right? You were in the same room as a guy accidentally. You both walked into like a 7-Eleven and there was you guys in the cashier and it was over. It was over. That sounds like a bad, oh no, don't make that reference Bianca. Nope, stop. Okay, bring it back. That would be too dirty. No, go ahead.
01:12:54
Speaker
Let's see where you're going to take this. I was going to make a two girls, one cup reference, which I know Casey, you can take off this whole thing. So that's fine. Oh no, this is gold. We'll keep it anyways. So, um,
Program Discipline and Control
01:13:13
Speaker
So it's after my second year, which means like a second year, you could date people. Second year, you could do whatever you want. I didn't date anybody, but, um, and so after my second year, me and a friend who I will not mention.
01:13:28
Speaker
It's like the summer, it's right before our third year. So Master's Commission was one of those things where it was kind of framed as a two-year program, but then once you got in it, you realized there was a third year and they were like the elders, then there was staff and that was like holy water. And then you can be like on staff and that was like really cool, the bread and butter. And so once you got in, you're like, oh, well, maybe I want to stay. So we're trying to go for our third year.
01:13:51
Speaker
Well, we went out and my cousin at the time owned a bunch of clubs in Austin on Sixth Street, which is pretty famous like Bar Street. So anyways, we go out, we get carried away. So we're staying at the dorm. So we come both in like drunk, like bad, throwing up in the elevator, drunk.
01:14:14
Speaker
And so one of the staff members finds us in the elevator, like puking on ourselves. And so then the next day, it's like, oh crap, we like got drunk. This is not allowed. This is definitely not allowed, right? And so it was this weird come to Jesus moment the next day, because then the director is sitting with me and he's like, hey, you are not going to be allowed back to master's commission. Like I'm kicking you out.
01:14:43
Speaker
And I remember sitting there, we're like in his car. I don't know why we're in his car, but we're in his car. And so I hope this doesn't take a dark turn. No, seriously. No, no, no, no, no. Cool dude. Cool dude. Doesn't take dark turn. We're in his car and I'm sitting there and I remember being like.
01:15:01
Speaker
Is this, is this a joke? Like, is this because I had fixated so much on like, I'm here, this is what I'm doing, this is God's call, right? So I'm sure you guys have heard of God's call, right? On your life. And so I felt like this is where I'm supposed to be. And then all of a sudden it was like gone in a second because I got drunk one night. That is, what? That is crazy. Is that real life? So, so then after that, it was very like,
01:15:30
Speaker
Oh, well, this is done. It took me a couple of years to get over that. It was really sad, but then what sucks about it is my friend who got drunk with me, she didn't get kicked out. I was so mad. Why? Because she confessed and I didn't.
01:15:48
Speaker
You thought maybe you could get away with that. I ate some bad seafood. Bring in the master's commission, you know, forensic team, and if you can prove it's my puke.
01:16:03
Speaker
And I was like, I'm just not gonna say anything. And I was like, this didn't happen, oops. And then she like, I guess the next day confessed and told them like, hey, we went out, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which back then I went by a different name. So nobody's ever gonna recognize me. So which is great.
01:16:21
Speaker
Liberty loved the loves Encouraging people to narc on each other like that was their mo they if they knew to party they'd bring you in separate and do the whole like There's like a good kind of bad cop kind of deal and like that's exactly that's exactly good cop bad That's exactly what happened and when I went in like cuz I cuz director talked to me first. I was like, I don't know I
01:16:46
Speaker
She went in and felt guilty and said everything and I was like Yeah, I think we went out, you know There was just not enough self-loathing there to keep you in the program probably yeah, and so I will say this though the directors at that time thinking thinking back now like I was I
01:17:14
Speaker
18, 19, 20. I was eight, nine 18, 19. And they were they were only three years older than me, which means they were like 2324. Do you guys know how y'all don't know shit at 23 and 24? Can you guys think of what your 2324 girls look like? Yep, I still believed a lot of this stuff.
01:17:34
Speaker
Exactly. If that says anything. Yeah. But at the same time, you didn't know shit. And so I think about them now. And I have compassion. I'm like, you were literally just trying to figure out this shit. You did not know. And you were trying to lead a group of 50 people, and you did not know. And you were just doing the best you could with what you know, which is exactly what all of our parents were always trying to do, right? You look at your fucked up childhood, and you're like,
01:18:04
Speaker
You were literally just trying to do the best you could with what you know. I get it now. I get it now and I give all the grace. Like what's the structure like above these guys? Because these guys are the ones that like they're post third year, right? These are permanent staff.
01:18:21
Speaker
Yeah. So there was one, uh, there was one lady who she had been there with the previous master's commission director who was like militant and crazy. That's the guy that people have like a lot of trauma over. Um, and she kind of was like helping. She was kind of older. She was like 10 years older than the director and she was kind of helping him because he was like 23, 24. And, um, but, um,
01:18:48
Speaker
But their overseers were like the church, but I don't know how much overseeing happened because like we would really just do whatever the director said. Like he was the guy who made the rules. And so if he said we're going on this trip, we're jumping off this bridge like we're doing it like and that's just what we're doing. So it was kind of kind of weird in that regard. But that was just how it went. And you never questioned anything like it was like,
01:19:15
Speaker
If he said something, you were never like, oh, well, that kind of sounds odd. No, you just you went with it because that was the rule. So it was like what what role did exhaustion play in like keeping everyone in line and compliance stuff? I would say we were always exhausted.
01:19:32
Speaker
Like, literally, because we would, I think Mondays was our day off, I think. And then it was, yeah, because Sundays we worked all day long. Like, it was like, because we were setting up church for the regular church. On the Sabbath? On the Sabbath, I know, right?
01:19:50
Speaker
But so on Sunday, we were like setting up for church, then doing three services, and we served in these services, right? So you guys know about like serving in church. So we did all that stuff. And then there was like an afternoon luncheon always, either like a men's luncheon or a ladies luncheon that we were like serving meals at. And then we would like do Sunday youth group after that. So Sundays were full.
01:20:12
Speaker
And then Mondays were like our day off, which was like we had barely time to do laundry or if like there was always consequences if we were late in the morning. So we'd have to do stuff on Monday, like serve more somewhere. And then the rest of the week, it was like all all day events. And we'd have like a master's commission family that we'd go like have dinner with on Thursdays. And there was just something like every night of the week that we always did. So there was really no room to just like
01:20:40
Speaker
you barely got your laundry done and then you were like trying to wake up to go to the next thing the next morning so that's like classic cult tactic yeah and then you had to make sure people hungry keep them exhausted keep them busy a hundred percent of the time yeah and then and then you always had to keep your shit clean like you still had to like you so still to this day like right now today like in master's commission we
01:21:04
Speaker
you always had to wipe the sink down when you you had to wipe your area down whatever area you used and still today like i wipe the sink down and wipe down everything after i use it because i'm like okay now it's clean now i can like continue after brushing my teeth just because like that's what we did and that's what i did for like three years or two years i guess but it just was like something ingrained every day you do so now like okay the the super militant guy who was in his early to mid 20s
01:21:33
Speaker
And it sounds like, yeah, he had a lasting effect on some people. Do you remember hearing any of the stories? What was it that made him out of control? He was insane.
01:21:47
Speaker
I think he was definitely coltastic. Oh, can I say, can I like, can I, can I, I love that word, coltastic. Yeah. He was definitely the guy that was militant and made you do this and made you like kind of guided on shame and guilt.
01:22:08
Speaker
And I heard stories of babysitting his kids all the time and doing this all the time for their family, kind of like servants for his personal family, so that he could lead the cause and make sure he was serving Jesus and make sure he was doing this thing. And I look at that and I'm like,
01:22:30
Speaker
Maybe he was just skewed and messed up, and he really thought he was doing the right thing. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, so that's a flaw of mine. But anyways, maybe he was really trying. He thought he was doing the will of God in this way, but looking at some of the things like
01:22:51
Speaker
So there's one blog, it's called My Cult Life, and that's Lisa Kerr. She has a lot of stories and a lot of things about that previous director that are on par and legit and terrible. And yeah, she had a terrible experience. Wow. Was there any allegations of abuse against this guy that you've heard?
01:23:21
Speaker
A little bit, but more emotional abuse, I would say. But definitely psychological and emotional abuse. He knew how to manipulate and he knew how to do things. But I'll say that.
01:23:38
Speaker
my director and maybe that's why they got a new director because the director that I came into I was like the first year of his like he wasn't like that like he like I'm still I follow him Instagram today just because I'm like yeah I think you were you didn't you were trying to figure it out you're trying to do the right thing I think you were
01:23:57
Speaker
following the crowd in some ways and the leadership that was given to you because Master's Commission has like an overseer network also, the Master's Commission International Network. And so I think he was just kind of following on trend what he saw them do. You don't have to run cover for the scumbag. I know, right?
01:24:18
Speaker
I'm so fair-minded and I just try to be like, well, he was probably just trying to do the best he could. I get it. I would have had maybe an issue with the type of rules that this master's thing had. Even when I was at Liberty, I was like, they go a little too far.
01:24:40
Speaker
If I was ever in a position of leadership institution that I believed in, even if I didn't agree with everything that they, all the rules that they had on people, I would have at that point been like, I just, I don't know, my hands are tied, rules are rules. Like, you know, you're not, what's he gonna do?
01:24:56
Speaker
Lee, I mean, yeah, he could leave the job. That would be nice if people came to realization that programs like that are maybe not as effective as they would like to think but I would have I could have been like that too. So it's it's easy for me to be at least a little empathetic towards that. Well, yeah, it's it's like the RAs at Liberty. You know, it was like, there was
01:25:22
Speaker
There was rules in place, you know, and and some people are just really they can't discern. They can't. They can't look at the rules in terms of like a hierarchy like, hey, man,
01:25:37
Speaker
It's like not having your bed made is not the same as like showing up two hours late for curfew. Those are not the same thing. They do not deserve the same level of scrutiny. But some people just can't look at things that way. It's like, well, this is what it says and I have to do what it says. You didn't do what it says. Well, and especially you have those people that are letter exactly like that where it's like, no, I have to follow the rules. I have to do this and I have to, you know, and if I don't, then
01:26:05
Speaker
Who am I? You know, I'm going to be this rule follower because that's who I am. So yeah, absolutely. So, okay. Maybe this is a, I don't mean this in a, in an ugly way or like, you know, I'm not trying to be unfair to, to like what those people do, but like, where's the money at in this thing?
Program Financial and Accreditation
01:26:27
Speaker
Right? So that's what I wonder. I actually thought about this recently. So we each pay five or six grand, I don't remember. Per year? Per year, yeah. And so times... And some of that's for the Bible course we took. So I think maybe...
01:26:54
Speaker
the fully accredited Bible course you took. Let me tell you guys, let me confess something. I just took those books to half price books last year. Wow, just saving them for a rainy day. I was like, well, maybe I should keep this.
01:27:12
Speaker
You should have said them to us. We would have perused those. Oh my gosh. Oh, you know what you guys would love though? I have this book called, um, what is it called? It's literally volume one, volume two, and it's like growing. It's not called growing up Christian.
01:27:29
Speaker
It's called like men's Christianity or something like that. And it's specifically for men. And it's this lesson that's like volume one, volume two, very articulately written, like following the Bible and what does it look like to be a man and be biblical. And anyways, it's interesting. I don't know why I have it, but I've kept it for you. I just think it's interesting. Henceforth and furthermore, your penis is
01:27:57
Speaker
A curse. Yes. And you should never touch it. You should absolutely never touch your penis. No. So wait, I got sidetracked. What were we talking about? You honked in your books. Okay. Money. You were talking about money. I got it. I'm on it. I'm on it. How much does the director get paid? That's what we want to know. How much did he get paid to kick you out?
01:28:19
Speaker
I don't think very much. They lived in a church house. Recently, the church just sold that house, and the Austin market's really good, so I think they sold it for a million dollars, but back then it was not that much.
01:28:35
Speaker
The ministry is no longer worth it. The ministry is definitely not worth it. That master's commission program does not exist in Austin, Texas anymore because it was not worth it because it wasn't bringing any money, I don't think. So we're paying five or six grand, but it's like we're also the church little slaves. We would help with
01:28:53
Speaker
Every men's luncheon, every women's luncheon, every... So the church that we were at was a pretty big church that would feed the church staff every day. So we would help clean up, help prep that, help... We literally were like lunch team and every day there was a different team where we'd go down an hour before and help make all the food for lunch for all the church staff.
01:29:15
Speaker
And then we go help them in their different tasks, like whether it was that finance, accounting, whatever, like we were like the helpers in that. So I feel like we paid for this thing, but we were also having to work for this thing. Right. I'd say that's like a classic model for that sort of thing. It's, you know, we can run the church basically at no cost and charge the people that were having do all the work. Yeah. And then, you know, whatever offerings you bring in or just
01:29:46
Speaker
above and beyond. That cheddar. Yeah, that cheddar. I know because you're working, I mean, you could see it from the flip side of like being a younger person getting into it thinking like this is a good training program. I'm sure it wasn't accredited, but your
01:30:07
Speaker
It's like, if it's a two year program and five or six grand a year, I mean, five or six grand a year for a room to have a place to live and eat is, you know, you spend more than five or six grand a year on that normally. So like, yeah. And I think so, Sam, it was accredited just so you know, it was accredited through the Assemblies of God. So you got an Assemblies of God, like at the end of two years, you could be an Assemblies of God pastor.
01:30:35
Speaker
So, it's not a crisis. You could be talking to them. As someone who's got pasture right now, I'm just saying.
01:30:41
Speaker
I will consider you my pastor from here forward. I didn't do that. After the two years, I was like, I'm not doing that. That's kind of like Pensacola was similar, though. I mean, you know, they operated as a college, but like it was pretty low tuition. You lived on campus. You worked on campus. Like you had to pitch in and do things around the school and stuff very similar. And when you were done, you got a degree from an institution that was not accredited and was worth nothing.
01:31:12
Speaker
Well, yeah, and that was I guess the difference with Matt, like at least you got like an Assemblies of God accreditation. They were like, that's why it's cheap. It's reasonably priced because it's worthless. Pensacola that is. It forces people to stay within the
Pentecostal Movement and Personal Faith
01:31:32
Speaker
denomination. Casey, did you ever go to the like Pensacola revival? Did you go to that? Do you know what that is?
01:31:39
Speaker
No, I've only like just heard stories about how weird Pensacola was on campus.
01:31:46
Speaker
So I went at the height of the Pensacola Revival, which is a huge Pentecostal movement thing. People slaying in the spirit kind of thing. And I don't know how much you guys know about the Pentecostal movement. I know about being slain in the spirit. Do you? I mean, not personally. It's never happened to me. Is that where Benny Hinn hits you with his sport coat? You fall over and shake.
01:32:17
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, so in 2000, I was in youth group then, so I was like in ninth or tenth grade. Our youth group took a trip to the Pensacola Revival to kind of go see what it's about, and this was our mission trip, or I don't know what it was.
01:32:37
Speaker
But we went there to kind of experience God. That's what it was to go experience God and Yeah, it was intense. It was which we'd kind of the church were a part of had that element to it But going there it was like element times 50, you know, like it was like Which you know, it's it's like with anything. I'll say this so you go to like some metal concert Casey and
01:33:02
Speaker
And you jump in and what is it like a mosh pit and everybody's getting crazy and some good song comes on and everybody's gets real crazy, right? It's the same thing. It's like
01:33:16
Speaker
people get moved by things. And so I think part of it is one thing, but part of it's just like, yeah, this song is playing and yeah, this thing is doing. So yeah, we're gonna get like into it and we're gonna like fall in the spirit and like feel this thing, you know? So I think it can happen secular or religious, like it just doesn't matter. Yeah, there's actually some interesting stuff out there on
01:33:43
Speaker
People having like these like spiritual sort of experience, you know, it's the group setting, it's the music, it's just a lot of things play into it and people have this, you know, strange transcendental sort of feeling out of it.
01:34:00
Speaker
No, I agree. And that's what that's with anything like when you have a group of people religious or not, you're going to have these like intense experiences with like, especially with music involved, like music is such a like, heightened thing. So I don't sometimes I
01:34:17
Speaker
think about how people talk about the church. And I think about how they'll be like, oh, why do they like lift their hands and do a thing? I'm like, you do the same thing at concerts. You do the same thing at fucking Kanye. Like you you do the same things. So why are you viewing it in a different lens? Like because the music is it is good. That's why. Absolutely. And I agree with that. But it's like, you know, by that.
01:34:44
Speaker
Yeah. But I agree with you. I'm making a joke. I do agree with you. I think that people are, it's very obvious why, to me at least, why people do that. Even as someone who had just a brush up with that kind of, that emotional, charismatic type worship style was like, I did have a brush up with it where for probably a year or two, a couple of years,
01:35:15
Speaker
You know, I was into it in that way. And then when I wasn't able to anymore, I actually was concerned like that I was...
01:35:23
Speaker
losing something. I started to find my identity in that to some degree. That's how I participate in this. Not even often, I think I almost exclusively confused my emotional experiences with spiritual experiences and I would try to force them in some way. The times that it didn't work, it was often maybe in my own head about it or
01:35:52
Speaker
whatever reason it didn't play out the way that I hoped it would. When I would go to those gatherings, I would kind of leave disappointed and feel like a bit of a failure. So it was a strange thing to participate in, but I 100% get
01:36:12
Speaker
if you're just participating in it and it's a way of life and it's not something you're trying to force or whatever, like just being a member in a church where the message is meaningful to you and you can get caught up in that. It makes sense that that would happen.
01:36:27
Speaker
And I think it is interesting that people do knock on it when you can really just pan across the stadium of Taylor Swift fans and watch them all just melting and yeah, and and and so so today for me like so I Haven't been to church like a traditional church
01:36:48
Speaker
Let's see. Well COVID was the thing so it's been probably a year and a half and so And it's hard for me to go to church for that reason because I'm I've so after some master's commission I actually did a church plant because I got kicked out master's commission and then I didn't do anything for like a couple years and then I helped with like a church plant so I've seen all these sides of like what it is to like a build a church and
01:37:13
Speaker
what it is to serve in a church, what it is to go to a church, what it is to have somebody invite me to a church and to invite others to church. I've been a part of every angle of that. And so now it's hard for me to go to church because I just see all the behind the scenes, you know, and I know what it takes to make up. I know the hype. I know that people are greeters on Sunday and they're just being nice to me. And I know that they want me to come back because, you know,
01:37:40
Speaker
They want everybody to come back. And I know all of that, right? So it's hard for me to go to church now because I know all the ins and outs. But then at the same time,
01:37:51
Speaker
I think, okay, that is for a certain person needs that, just like I needed that at some point. And now I'm at a place where I need something different and I'm investing in something different. I try to just love people where they're at and just be who I am and be really authentic and then
01:38:11
Speaker
who I'm around I try to be really authentic and say hey you be you like we're all just trying to figure it out and whatever wherever you're at in that just just do it you know and so um but it's hard do you do you go to church sam like a traditional church uh i don't know how you would define traditional i do go to one it has uh fluctuating number of people right now we just do it outside for this because of covet none of us really want to be indoors but um
01:38:39
Speaker
I don't know, I don't know that there's a lot of, I don't know how you define a traditional church, but yeah, I do participate. Is it a gathering of people where they sing a song and then a guy talks for a long time and it sucks? Casey, I think you don't go to church, which is why I didn't ask you. I do not. Yes, I don't think so, okay.
01:39:02
Speaker
No, that kind of resonates with me too. It's almost like you saw how the sausage was made to some extent. Yeah, and you don't want to eat it now. And I feel like I've got, part of my problem, and it's not necessarily a good thing, is I think I have this really strong disinterest in authenticity.
01:39:30
Speaker
And again, like maybe at times it might even be irrational, but when I don't like being worked and I feel like I'm being, I get the same feeling a lot of times from like the greeters and stuff at a church that I get when like, ah, like I'm working with a sales guy and he's,
01:39:51
Speaker
He's working me and I hate that. You know, I just like, just be you. And if you don't want to say hi to me, then that's fine, but don't do this. Like, good to see you, brother. Oh boy. We are blessed to have you here for fellowship. Like not interested. Yeah.
Authentic Community Building
01:40:08
Speaker
So that's that. So I know exactly what that feels like. And Casey, are you in cell? You're in cells, right? Yep.
01:40:13
Speaker
So you know what it is to be sold. So I'm also, so I get that. And that's the part that like makes me like cringe. Cause I'm like, boy, I see you. You're trying to sell me or whatever. And I'm no, like I just get done and I get turned off. And I'm like, I know what you're doing right now and fuck you. Like that's immediately how I feel. So now what I do is I don't go to church. But no, now what I do is I have,
01:40:41
Speaker
community at like my house and through the hobbies I have and all this stuff and I just try to like love people where they're at because I genuinely care about them and because I genuinely love them and because I want to be around them and I'm like and I find all these kind of misfits kind of organically that I'm like hey do you want to come over for Christmas dinner hey do you want to come over for this hey we're doing this thing if you want to come over and
01:41:04
Speaker
And I feel good about that because I'm not trying to sell them anything. I'm not trying to say, hey, come here so I can then invite you to church. I'm just saying, hey, come here just because I like you. And because if you don't have anywhere to go, you can come here. And I feel like that is the church. I feel like that is what God wants us to be. And I feel like it's just supposed to be like this love thing.
01:41:25
Speaker
and it's supposed to include everybody. I still believe a lot of really specific things about what I've learned and one of them is just loving people exactly where they are and calling them to be what they think they're supposed to be. So it's like, hey, I love you and I'm gonna support you in whatever you want. So that can be all over the place sometimes, but yeah.
01:41:52
Speaker
It's it's weird how like you're I Don't know you just say like your spiritual beliefs are like this strange mix. It's like a concoction of Faith and and community yeah, I'm like you can't really do one without the other and like I feel like that's where I ended up was I
01:42:18
Speaker
The faith was all posturing and it took me a long time to figure that out, but it was the cases like I just, this is not real to me, you know, as it like, I don't have a genuine, like, uh, uh,
01:42:34
Speaker
I don't have genuine conviction about these things, and the community's gone. It's totally missing. When I found community elsewhere, a mutual friend was a huge part of that. Huge part. I don't like to say nice things about him, but he was a big part of that for me.
01:42:54
Speaker
And that's really where because I found community elsewhere, that was when I was finally able to be honest about my lack of conviction. Yeah. Well, and I really think that community and authenticity is what God wants. I don't like everything that I've seen
01:43:19
Speaker
church that's fake and Put on it's like that doesn't bring anything It's when somebody's like raw and humble and real and like pain like all those things that's like what brings like change and realness and I you know as much as like my mom tearing off her wig in the middle of like this all-white church and
01:43:43
Speaker
I saw something in my mom that I was like, you know, she's real though and like to this day if you guys know my mom Oh my gosh, she's a fucking hoot and and she loves her son Jesus and she will tell you that like nope That's who gets me through the day. That's what does it thing and I and I saw I saw that growing up and I and I and I see it in my life today like I'm like
01:44:06
Speaker
you know, I love me some Jesus, you know, at the at the end of the day, that's like the thing that's gonna like, bring me to that's the thing that's gonna like ground me. And I don't and I and I don't understand all the logistics. And I don't understand all the
01:44:26
Speaker
Oh, the minutiae of it all. But I know that my faith is like real and it's here and it's like with God. And I don't always get it right. And I say fuck and I get drunk and I don't get it all right all the time. But I'm like, but I love me some Jesus too. I think that's the best. Yeah, I think that's really great.
01:44:53
Speaker
Like being able to, I was having a discussion with a guy in a forum the other day and he kind of had a similar sort of outlook on it.
01:45:03
Speaker
And I really thought about like, man, that's the sweet spot. Take what you need from what you got and discard the rest. If this isn't bringing you joy and if it's not doing anything good for you, then get rid of it and focus on this. This right here is what's important. Yeah. And I'll say a lot of therapy is with that too.
01:45:31
Speaker
Yeah, no, I've done it, you know, I've done a lot of therapies. So yeah, no, there was therapy. There's a lot there's a lot there.
01:45:41
Speaker
But no, I think, oh, I was going to tell you guys, there's a book, actually, that Casey, you're not going to read, but Sam, you might.
Wisdom and Personal Faith Reflections
01:45:50
Speaker
I can't remember the exact name of it, and you might have already read this. But it's What the Bible Really Means, I think. How the Bible Actually Works by Peter Enns.
01:46:02
Speaker
Yeah, did you like that? What did you think about that? You like that? It's fantastic. I thought it was pretty, I thought it was pretty good too. Well, I don't know if fantastic was the word. I thought it was like good. And I thought like, well, yeah, duh. Yeah, it is it. Yeah, but it's interesting because a lot of people might not necessarily find
01:46:26
Speaker
A lot of that is, yeah, I think it was the time that I read it, it was right after it came out and it was really helpful. He's also had, I've read a couple of other, a couple of his other books too. He's been one of the most helpful people for me in processing like my shift in understanding about the blind one. Did you give Casey the cliff notes of that one? No, Casey doesn't care. Casey, get the cliff notes from Sam. I got a general idea of what it is and it sounds awful.
01:46:58
Speaker
I mean, words on a page to Casey just sound awful. So basically, let me sum it up. And Sam, tell me if I do a decent job. But basically, how the Bible actually works is...
01:47:13
Speaker
This feels like a trap. This is a trap. No, but basically it's just kind of like, Hey, the Bible's this book of wisdom. Don't take it so seriously and maybe read it kind of with a grain of salt and maybe it doesn't have everything right. And maybe that's okay. And maybe there's some tension in it and let's just take what we can from it. Eat the meat, spit out the bones done. Was that your take? Yeah. I mean, that is essentially my take. It's like, uh,
01:47:40
Speaker
I guess it's just more it's like about understanding the the formation some of it's a formation of the Bible and why you know it it says different things at different times and it's about trajectory and how and why it I guess just how it works but yeah I think you did a great job kind of just summarizing it it does give you the feeling that like
01:48:06
Speaker
You don't have to like, you know, we all grew up with this thing that's like, you would pull a verse out of Exodus and be like, I guess that's true. What do I do with that? And it could have been something really fucked up. And you're like, I don't really know. Oh, God said to do that. That seems really dark. And it kind of was an introduction into like, it makes a shift from this is what God said to this is what people thought God was saying and how people understood God at the time.
01:48:36
Speaker
And then you can watch that shift over time, over the centuries, based on when books were written and how you can see their understanding of God change over time. Yeah, and I think even now. So I think for me now, I look at things like, gosh, there's so many things, right? Then I'm like, you know, I look at some people sometimes and go, hey, I don't know. I don't know, but I love you.
01:49:05
Speaker
And I'm gonna be here for you and I love you. And I think God loves you too. And I don't know any details. Like I don't know if that's right or that's wrong and I don't think it matters.
01:49:17
Speaker
Apologetics isn't your, uh, not your focus at, not at all. That's why I never graduated that why I loved, uh, what was her name? Bethany? Was it Bethany? Yeah. Okay. So I loved her so much. I was like, wow, she's like done her fucking research and she's gone this and done this and then this. And I was like, maybe I need to do that. Yeah.
01:49:40
Speaker
It was impressive. But yeah, so I just think like, if we just love people and be kind, and maybe that's what we're supposed to do, and maybe, yeah, that'll, that'll change the world in some small way, and build our little communities, then maybe we'll make, maybe we'll do something.
01:49:58
Speaker
Absolutely. Man, thanks for sharing your story. It makes you wonder how many of these types of programs are around that we just don't hear much about, or they were localized to some extent, or things like team missions and all of those types of deals. Or like YWAM, like Youth with a Mission. Yeah, yours sounds YWAM-ing a little bit in the way that it's constant grind.
01:50:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think YWAM is an Assemblies of God thing, I think. Oh, can I also tell you guys that? So after, during Master's Commission, I applied for, I think it was a YWAM missions thing, and I was going to go to some random country. And on the application, it asked me, do I drink alcohol? And I was like, let me be honest. Yes, I do.
01:50:52
Speaker
And so then I had this in-person interview. They're like, how often do you drink alcohol? And I was like, I don't know. At that time, it was one or two nights a month. Now it's a little bit different. At that time, it was like, I don't know, one or two nights a month. So I literally didn't get accepted into this program because I answered yes. Isn't that like- That's so dumb. That's the thing. It's like, that's so fucking dumb.
01:51:20
Speaker
They were afraid if they sent you to Mongolia, you were just going to guzzle fermented horse milk. Yeah. And it's like, man, how many people got shut down or shunned or felt shameful because it's like they answered honestly. And you stopped them from doing a thing that they really wanted to do. Because for me, that was pretty heartbreaking.
01:51:42
Speaker
Yeah, and even like I had been in contact with the guy who I was gonna like the family who I was gonna like move with it was in Georgia the country and And it was like such a big deal. I was like, oh I didn't get accepted and it was like because I answered yes Because I drank like that's a dumb
01:52:00
Speaker
They need to take a move from the Baptist, the Southern Baptist and just make you sign something saying that you won't anymore. I won't anymore. I know that's exactly actually what I said in the in-person interview. I was like, but I won't while I'm there. Like, but I, but I do currently, but I'm fine with not like, that's fine anyways. Yeah. Well, you know, when you, uh, when you find sin, do you got to jerk it up by the root? That's what I say.
01:52:27
Speaker
Okay, let me, I'm looking at my notes y'all because that was.
Humorous Reflections and Community Impact
01:52:31
Speaker
Can I just mention that Lloyd Ziegler looks like Woody Harrelson if he hadn't have bashed his nose into a wall or whatever he did. Wait, can you click on your thing so it doesn't make it so white? Oh, there he is. There he is. Doesn't look like Woody Harrelson.
01:52:51
Speaker
So I was looking through my yearbook, my master's commission yearbook two nights ago, kind of prepping. I was trying to remember like all the weird shit. There was a lot of weird shit that I wrote down. But one of the things I found was like top 10 things not to do your first year. And so it was like, number 10 was like, think for yourself.
01:53:12
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's a little on the nose. Yeah. Number nine, have anything to do with people. Number eight, right on the elevator, which I don't know why that was a thing, but number seven, thank you know about anything about your future. Number six, be in the same room with the opposite sex. Number seven, look at the opposite sex.
01:53:33
Speaker
Oh wait, number 765. Number four, sit with the opposite sex. Number three, look at the opposite sex for longer than 2.5 seconds. Number two, stand under a mistletoe. And number one, speak in tongues, as in like make out with people. Like, so. Speak in tongues.
01:53:56
Speaker
Is Mistletoe just like scattered over every doorway in East Texas? I know, right? I know, maybe, maybe. So it's just, it's funny, but oh yeah, we didn't even talk about mission trips, but it's okay. That's all that we can do.
01:54:12
Speaker
Man, it's food or seed for our return visit. Yeah. Yeah. I only do that, but, um, I would be curious to see, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of podcasts too that have all these like negative takes about master's commission. I feel like mine's, mine's not that negative, but there's a lot of people with, like I said, a lot of trauma, which is totally valid. And, um, I will say that today I still talk with my like people, the girls that were in my first year class with me, we're still, because of our.
01:54:42
Speaker
experience. We're still like friends. Like I know I could call any of them today and be like, Hey, I need this or hey, I'm going through this and they would like, just drop everything. Like we're, we're still like friends today. So I am really grateful for that. I'm really grateful.
01:54:59
Speaker
for the relationships that came out of that and we're all like today questioning like what is faith like some of them it's funny because some of them are pastors wives some of our pastors and then some of them are people like me who just like party and have fun all the time and so we're all just kind of like wrestling like with like what is faith now what does that look like we're kind of reframing it all you know kind of like we're doing right now and like i don't know what this is and i don't really have it all figured out and maybe
01:55:27
Speaker
there's space for more and maybe we just kind of look at it really humbly and go, hey, I just don't know. And that's okay. It's like the value of it is not dependent upon you knowing every minute detail about it. Yeah. And the more and more I feel like I know less. I'm like, I'm kind of okay with that. I'm just okay with like loving people and that's it. And that's not my job to do anything else. It's just to love people. So.
01:55:51
Speaker
It was such a delight to talk to you guys. I feel like I just want you guys to know that during the podcast, I'll talk back to you, but you don't know because it's a podcast and I'll be like, oh my gosh, yes, that, oh, I totally get it. Just scream at your radio, like stop interrupting each other.
01:56:06
Speaker
I do. I do. I'll say that and I'll be like, yeah, I totally have that same experience, which I can't think of any right now. But yeah, so I love that you have created this little community in this space where people can just like share their stories and you don't realize like how similar stories are. Like I can't remember something.
01:56:28
Speaker
I can't remember which one of you guys said it, but I was like, oh my gosh, y'all did that there? We did that in Texas. And I was like, what? This was a thing everywhere, all over the nation? And yeah, it was just a weird Christianity in the 90s, 2000s.
01:56:46
Speaker
Yep. All throughout. All throughout. Yeah. Good era. Good, great era. So yeah, that's all. Well, thanks again for coming on. It was a ton of fun. It was.
01:57:01
Speaker
Yeah, thank you guys for listening. Remember, we got the Discord. You can find links in any of our social media. And if you're enjoying the podcast, we would really appreciate it if you'd share it with a friend and leave us a five-star review on the platform of your choice. Thanks a lot, and we will talk to you next time.