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The Chaotic Beauty of Heavy Rain || Quantic Dream Month
52 Plays10 days ago
Two content creators. One blackmailer. And an ultimatum so devious it'll shock you to your core. Join Satsu and BadGamesJules as they battle through four of David Cage's most popular games. Which ones have held up the best? And which ones were better forgetten? Let's find out!
In this episode, Satsu and Jules discuss the meme, the myth, the legendary game Heavy Rain. At the time, Heavy Rain was revolutionary in using video games as a medium for storytelling but does it still hold up 16 years later? What problems does it suffer from? And why is their favourite character an FBI agent in sunglasses?! Grab your origami kit as we discuss Heavy Rain!
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Transcript
The Blackmailer's Game Begins
00:00:03
Speaker
Jules, Jules, Jules. What? You've been yelling my name for the past hour. Also, why are you carrying a big X button? No time for that. I've got good news and bad news. The good news is we survived the first demand of the blackmailer. The bad news is we have three more games to go. So what's the next game then? Well, all I've got here is a sheet of paper and instructions on how to fold it. That should give us our next clue in no time. A few moments later. I don't know, Satsu. I don't think that's what the blackmailer had in mind.
00:00:34
Speaker
Whaaat? What are you talking about? Clearly you wanted me to create this majestic paper airplane. Ooh, look at it go. Oh, hold on. I've got a call coming in. Uh-huh.
00:00:46
Speaker
Oh, that's what it's supposed to be. Oh, right, right. Okay. Okay. I'll tell her. Right. and Okay. Okay. Bye bye. Who was that? Oh, that was just the blackmailer. It said that we're supposed to be making a paper crane that spells out heavy rain. Oh, that makes sense. Wait, did you say you just spoke to the blackmailer? Oh, yeah. Friendly guy. Very French though. Wait, a French blackmailer who wants you to complete Quantic Dream games? You do realize what that means! Oh my i god, you're right!
Introduction to Quantic Dream Month
00:01:14
Speaker
The blackmailer could be a podcaster. What? No, it means… Forget it. Welcome to Quantic Dream Month.
00:01:23
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the second episode Quantic Room Month. My name is Satsunami and joining me today is none other than the origami master herself, is Jules. Jules, welcome back. Thanks for having me back. As of course you know, I am the origami killer, I mean master. i didn't even have to say anything, you just folded under pressure, ironically. I see what you did there.
00:01:47
Speaker
but um bunch know probably you're going to jail for a long time. Oh, and I've run out of time for this podcast. I gotta go. I was gonna say you're channeling your inner shepherd there. I should go. I might have to clean some fingerprints.
00:02:02
Speaker
have to return some videotapes. Why is that the second episode I've made that reference? Anyway, side, how are you doing tonight? Ah, I'm doing fairly well. You said that with such confidence.
00:02:14
Speaker
but Channeling my inner Scott Shelby. Yeah, you're I have all my umbrellas next to me in case it starts heavily raining. That's true. Which of course, I don't know if you know, but when this game that we're going to be talking about today released in Scotland, they had to rename the title as just Normal Day. um Ah, weather jokes in Scotland. Whatever will he think of next? Yeah, when this released in the United States, if you got it while you were in the desert, it just said fantasy game because it never rains over there.
00:02:45
Speaker
What, Phoenix just crying right now? Phoenix in shambles? What is in Fahrenheit? Minus 60 to the mental health well-being. They're just wrecks right now. But anyway, sorry. People who yearn for the heavy rain
Impact and Legacy of Heavy Rain
00:02:57
Speaker
aside. Yeah, today we are of course going to be talking about the third game and David Cage's game-mography. I suppose is the right term. That of course being Heavy Rain, the game released in 2010, conceptualised in 2006, which I didn't realise, but kinda makes sense considering how much is put in this game. Yeah, before we dive into this one, because we've got some juicy facts about this game, honestly I'm biased, I love this game.
00:03:24
Speaker
Same. It's one of my favorite games of all time, unironically. It's a terrible mess. It honestly is. It's messy, it's got weird things, but it's about like, you know that Simpsons scene where it's like Apu saying, there goes the worst employee I've ever had, but still somehow the best? Yeah. It's about like that. It's like, they had terrible controls, dodgy animations, plot that made no sense, but there goes the best damn story-driven game I've I don't like Deathly Premonition, but that's fun and fun of course. But before I go on and say how this game changed me in more ways than one, yeah, what is your history with this game? Did you play it at the time or was it one of these ones that you played later on? So I remember PewDiePie playing it, I think this is around 2012, 2011. And I started watching him play it, but I didn't finish because I wanted to solve the whole mystery myself. So I paused his Let's Play halfway through, ordered the game myself, and then I played it. One of the best gaming experiences ever.
00:04:23
Speaker
I genuinely love this game. And did you get it for the PlayStation? Yeah. Yes, I got it on the PS3. Oh, God. So did I. This is how sad I am. Did you know that I actually got this game for my 18th birthday?
00:04:35
Speaker
What a beautiful present. No, I'm not even joking here. And no, it wasn't wrapped in origami before you say it. Well, it was this weird game. So I was on holiday with my family. It was really just like a holiday down south in England and we had driven down and everything. And just by chance, it coincided with my birthday. So while we were down, there were two games I wanted that year. Would you believe? Two games I wanted. One of which was Heavy Rain and the other one was Red Dead Redemption. The original one.
00:05:03
Speaker
It is such a tonal shifter. I'm not going to lie. Both amazing story-driven experiences, mind you, for different reasons. All I could think of was when I was down there that I was so desperate to play them. But obviously, because we were across the border and everything, wasn't going to bring my PlayStation down. So I couldn't wait to go home and play it. Long story short, that was one of those holidays where I was violently ill when we were traveling back up because I ate something dodgy. So I couldn't play this game until much later. I was so, I mean, obviously between throwing up, I was like, oh, I don't want to play it again. because I'm too ill. And eventually got round to it. And at the time, I saw this as an absolute masterpiece. I absolutely loved it. I thought, 10 out of 10, no-nos. This game is the best one ever. Growing up and, you know, getting a bit more life experience, you do start to see the cracks drop.
00:05:57
Speaker
Oh yeah, this is a game that we joked about this last week, but the fact so of how when I put out the tweet of, oh, what does everybody think of Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain? And of course, everybody that contacted me were like, I love Heavy Rain, it's amazing. Fahrenheit, other than the one person who managed to get his thoughts in at the last minute. Yeah, other than that. There was crickets about that game. So Heavy Rain, would it be right to say, Jules, that Heavy Rain is one of those impactful games of the gaming community as a whole? I would say so, because it definitely still is only one of one of its genre. Yeah. Yeah, you didn't really see anyone try to replicate it at the time when it released. There truly wasn't narrative experiences like that. And then a couple years later, Telltale, I guess, would be the closest that started coming to like that narrative, adding quick time events kind of genre to it as episodic games started to rise. But I feel like Heavy Rain was truly pioneering, focusing on narrative rather than gameplay. yeah and i have to say the gameplay in this one is certainly better than fahrenheit that goes without saying isn't it simon says versus contextual prompts actually this is something i haven't confessed to you but remember how i was saying last week when we did the fahrenheit episode that i tried playing fahrenheit in the steam deck and i couldn't get it to work because it wouldn't let me put in my damn name i killed it so i got a little bit further with heavy rain but i had to stop playing and you want to know why what one reason i had what did mr cage put in the game to kill it you know how he loves to use the entire controller yes
Gameplay Quirks and Mechanics
00:07:36
Speaker
including when you have to shake the controller to brush your teeth so i got to the scene where i went to brush my teeth so you can't skip this you have to go for a shower because david cage doesn't like stinky boys so he wants you to go into the shower and show your cheeks and everything and once you have that shower scene which no doubt will be the I mean, I think it's the second Shivers scene of the Quantic Dream universe, the David Cage Cinematic Universe. Yeah, the scene where you have to brush your teeth and you have to shake the controller. I don't know if you've ever played on the Steam Deck, Jules, but... No, I have not. So the controller's built into the whole thing. Oh, so it's like the PlayStation portal. I have one of those. So yeah. Oh yeah, it's exactly the same, but it also has like the gyro scope thing. So it's like where you move the console will affect what's on the screen. Did you know that in order to get by that, you have to shake the whole thing? So I was sitting in bed with my partner, right? And imagine this and I'm playing it and I thought, you know what? I'll get a little bit in before we do this episode. Yeah.
00:08:34
Speaker
but that's it i thought maybe if i just gently shake the controller nope didn't work so i had to i kid you not i grabbed this with two hands and i'm going up and down like that and then of course david cage says no no you're too stinky you have to brush sideways as well so i am throwing it side to my full body side to side my partner's looking at that me as if i've been possessed by a man god listen to last week's episode but She's looking as if I'm possessed going, what are you doing, Satsu? And I'm like, I'm trying to brush my teeth. So I gave up. Absolutely. I gave up. I thought it's not worth it. It's not worth playing this game on a Steam Deck just to shake the whole controller. So yeah, that was fun.
00:09:14
Speaker
um I also have a fun fact about the showering. Oh, do too. So years ago when I was doing a replay of it, I somehow accidentally discovered a speedrun way of skipping the shower. And I got so many comments on that because it was just like a short that I did. And people were like, no, you faked this. I was like, one, I have no reason to. some small YouTuber. What do I gain from this? And then two, I don't speed run either. So like I have nothing to gain from faking this either. So yeah, so yeah I got a couple of comments that were like, no you spliced this together. So I linked the full stream because they didn't have the feature at the time for shorts to put like the related video. So I linked the full thing and what happened, I somehow went into the shower and then he just like immediately got out. So it looked like I spliced it because it looks like it's two different clips, but that's just what happened. I was so confused. I've never tried to replicate it and I don't know if anyone ever else has tried to, but I somehow skipped the whole shower sequence on my latest replay of it. That is crazy. it Was that in the PS3 or the PS4 one? That was the, I believe it's the PS4 version, but I played on the PS5. So it's probably the PS4 version. Hmm, that's interesting. I mean, I'm not to go and replicate it. I don't know why I'm saying that. with i gun yes
00:10:22
Speaker
Speedrunners, go ahead, try it for yourself. After this, I'm immediately hitting the shower. It's like, a great job, guys. Yeah, I have to say the different versions of this game are just baffling to me because I had it the PS3, much like yourself. I hated the way that they did the controls because, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that in order to move, you had to hold down the R2 button. and you had to move. So see, when I played it again in the PS4 and the PC version, I was like, oh my God, they got rid of that. Thank God. Because I was so scared about breaking my controller because you know the way the PS3 controllers have those dangly L2 R2 buttons. And I was so scared that i was just going to break the hinge on it because I was pressing it so much, but I don't get it. That was definitely a choice of all time to be like, okay, Mr. Cage, we're going to just program it to walk normally with the control stick, right? No, no. No, no, no. No, no, this is my vision. um
00:11:14
Speaker
You have to hold the R2 button. Just like in the real life. It's like, what? Mr. Cage, are you okay? No. Bob has left me. Again, if you don't know who Bob is, listen to the last episode. i don't have time for the David Cage lore.
00:11:29
Speaker
keep up yeah ah a keep of guys. gimmer Yeah, Heavy Rain is an interesting one in terms of development because, once again, i think someone's messing with me, by the way, because somebody else said that this is another 2,000 page script. I'm like, what does David Cage do that he's just writing 2,000 page scripts going, oh, this is my vision of Ellie Gold 2? 2,000! Again, it could be classified as a blunt instrument. Do you think to protect his home, he just has the Heavy Rain script behind his door nobody
David Cage's Creative Influence
00:12:00
Speaker
can get in? just you're like i don't get it as i said the game itself i'm pretty sure it was inspired by i don't know if you've seen it before but it was a short called heavy rain the casting i don't think i have no so it was the woman who played lauren winter did that and it's kind of like a monologue she does where she's talking about she was part of an abusive relationship she took the gun and shot him and everything and When you watch it nowadays, it looks a bit janky, but i think for the time, and I think that's what really captured me personally, I don't know if you're the same, that when you saw the motion capture and the graphics at the time, this looked practically realistic, didn't it? Oh, for sure. I still think to this day that the graphics hold up really well, especially considering that this game is, oh gosh, 16 years old at this point. That's crazy, isn't it? But yeah, I feel like that's the first thing you notice with this game is that the graphics are extremely impressive. At the time, it's still, like I said, now I'm still blown away by how good it looks. There's some genuinely impressive moments in this game, but yeah, yeah I can see some moments, you know, like when they zoom up to the characters faces and you're like, oh, you didn't need that close up.
00:13:11
Speaker
Especially in the beginning credits. That's a little jarring. Yeah, but it's like, oh look at this. look at the phases because I have to say Heavy Rain as you said as well it's one of those games that means a lot to me because not only was it a game I played when I was a fresh-faced 18 year old thrown up apparently but also my very good friend Adam and I when we started doing the podcast back in 2020 2021 especially 2021 we did an episode on Heavy Rain and in case anyone's curious to see what my thoughts were back then feel free to go ahead and listen to because we did a full playthrough of the game and it took us i think 17 weeks worth of content we got because we had like 16, 17 episodes including one where we went through know all the bonus features and bo honestly it is one of the best things I think I've ever done in my life I'm not even exaggerating it is just laugh a minute I don't think there's a moment where we aren't laughing about it or just absolutely cackling what's going on in the screen if anyone's curious about what the cake we actually got up to you can check it out on our let's play channel chats who plays where we've got the full compilation video and we've also broke it into bite-sized chunks as well but it's one of those ones where you think oh yeah you know maybe a couple of minutes worth of content we'll be able to get up into youtube you know how long could it be anyway it's like nearly an hour and a half and The whole thing is like there are so many moments where I'm like, how did we get so much content? But yeah, if you want to listen to our thoughts previously, go back to season one of the podcast. And yeah, we talk about it in depth there. And again, when I was listening back, I didn't really feel as if my thoughts have changed on the game, which I know is not very good five years later. to be like yeah i think the same really but it's honestly baffling how much of an impact this game has made because as i said before i put out a couple of tweets to ask what people thought of this game before we dive into what we think are you ready to hear a couple yeah and as i said last week i'm so glad you said yes Because that would be all we're saying, yep, roll on the episode. The first one comes from our friends in the Game Club pod who said that they did an episode on Heavy Rain last year and they had some thoughts. Dot, dot, dot. Do you want to guess if it's good or bad thoughts? I'm going to assume good thoughts because Heavy Rain the best game of all time. Close, because they gave it a five. Truly gave it the highest score with a five. i hope That's out of five and not out of ten or a hundred. Followed up by Cryptic saying, isn't Heavy Rain the game with the Shaunine?
00:15:45
Speaker
ah Oh boy. And Wonko following up saying, and Jason. And Ebony saying, oh, I love Heavy Rain. Which, there is a lot of love for this game. So Wonko clarified, he had to send me a message to be like, I've got to get my thoughts out here. And is someone who, he is an expert in France. more than me, I have to say. He would kill me if I said otherwise. So he said, I guess I can give you Wonko's insanely bad take or reaction to comment on No. Could it be said that Heavy Rain is actually David Cage's best game simply because it's the most grounded in reality and not as completely batshit and insane as all of his other games? That is true, we will touch on that though. Is Heavy Rain the definition of wasted potential and how close does it come to being good? Apart from a long long shower and ingesting near lethal quantities of alcohol, how should the player cope after playing all the sections as Madison Page and the deeply uncomfortable situation she is put in? again we will get on to that that's going to be the catchphrase we will get on to that one of the things that i do want to point out see just before we get into this is just the development of heavy rain because as i said after 2006 they said that they were working on it and everything and did you know this was supposed to go to microsoft initially oh that's interesting guess why they didn't want to
00:17:05
Speaker
game Take a wild guess. I'm really excited to hear one. My out there guess would be because somehow Microsoft's American and this game is not good for Americans. So we're going to Sony. and Close. It's because of things of child abduction.
00:17:22
Speaker
Oh, yes. No child abduction happens here in America. I can guarantee that.
00:17:27
Speaker
no no no land of the free and all that yeah no yeah that was the thing they looked at the script and said what is wrong with you it's like you know that sitcom trope where it's like i have an idea it's just him sitting on the curb being like that was a terrible idea so yeah sony decided to take it on and yeah thank god because otherwise wouldn't have I think what's funny though is that the child abduction part's not okay, but the child dying to a car crash is. Well, what's funny as well is, and it's been years since I've read this fact, but I'm pretty sure that David Cage actually wanted to show the child getting the Oh my god.
Heavy Rain's Emotional Core
00:18:06
Speaker
But yeah, because of Sony being like, David, what the hell? We should have listened to Microsoft, but we're in too deep now. So yeah, obviously they changed it to Ethan Mars, one of the main characters, grabbing his child and getting hit in the back, which when you think about it, when you look at that at the very beginning, it does look as if, well, you know, you can buff that Ethan, you're fine. Yeah, I never understood how Jason died to that to this day. Every time I rewatch it, I'm like, Ethan takes most that. Did Jason die like a heart attack or something? It's like Goku all over again. But yeah, no, that's why. Because he wanted to show the full nitty gritty. And it's like, Jesus, David. I mean, you killed a bunch of kids in Fahrenheit by setting a bunker on fire. Have you no shame, Mr. Cage? Oh, it's just a car this time. Yeah, and you nearly drowned one and performed shoddy CPR on him. I mean, and of course the tagline being, and I love the reason for this, at the beginning of the game where you go into the mall and you lose your child purely by accident, but you lose your child and he's got the survival instincts of, I don't know, like a dodo and a dinner plate. He's got no survival on six at all. He's like, Dad, oh my god. I somehow made it to the other side of the road without getting hit by a car. Let's do two for two. I'm feeling lucky tonight, Dad. And then, yeah, of course, I landed on red. The true lesson is to always teach your children how to cross the street and be lucky about it. But what loved is, apparently that was inspired, and don't know how true this is, but really hope it's true, that he said he briefly lost his son in the mall, which made him reflect on what it means to love your son. This then led on to the tagline, how far are you prepared to go to save someone you love? I said this to you off mic, that when I was younger, I also got lost in like department store. After that whole traumatic experience, I never once thought, I should write a book about someone getting tasted by a van, you know, it's like, The mind of this man was just... It took me losing my son in store to really appreciate my child.
00:20:07
Speaker
a Yo, before that, he was dead weight. You know, it's like, wait, I can use this as an idea. Do you think this son was Bob? Oh, for sure. bob has to be inspired. It has to be an inspiration in every game. i can't remember what film it is but you know the one where it's the guy screaming going i've abandoned my child abandon i jacob is david cage god i've abandoned ah bob i've abandoned my son mr cage are you okay mr cage is right there he's a mannequin he can't physically move you don't know that again when i was doing research i had to look up the wikipedia page and what i was howling at was the fact that When he's talking about the inspiration that came from real life events, he apparently researched serial killers by reading books and, you know, while weird, it's not the weirdest thing David Cage has done, so i can give him a free pass. Yeah, at least he did experiment being a serial killer to write one. Oh, I mean, he's like Jared Leto. Nearly levels of method act in the air is like, put on the more cancelled. I don't want to put it on. But just this line in Wikipedia, it says, he based the finger amputation scene on a childhood accident. And I'm like, there is no way that's real. The most vague accident.
00:21:20
Speaker
Baffling. it's just like yeah sure why not it's one of those things that's like i can't really get into the source i'm like is it real is it not real i'm like it's david cage of course it's going to be real see without any further ado will we i was going to say dive in but you don't want to dive in in heavy rain while we take a modest roll in the rain and see why this game is so well i would say beloved I say at the very least appreciated. So yeah, we will be right back of course after these messages. Welcome to Chatsunami, a Scottish variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and general interests. Join me, your host, Satsunami, as well as the rest of our Chatsunami team for our takes on these very important pop culture topics. Sir, it's clearly a trap. I accept your pain! That happens three times in the film. Every time that general goes, don't do this one thing, he goes, do you know what I'm gonna do? It's the exact thing.
00:22:18
Speaker
He does as well. She had the pointy teeth. What was that about? She looked like Bilbo when he wants the ring back. she t and I just want the lightsaber one more time. Parasite says, no, you will get back into your office and work. No, says the man in Zoom. yeah Trousers are for the working man. You're bursting into your hotel room. Honey, we need to go.
00:22:41
Speaker
Leave the kids. We can milk an audition. Oh.
00:22:49
Speaker
That's the worst thing you've ever said on any of the episodes. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out at our website, chattsunami.com, as well as all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:23:05
Speaker
Stay classy and have banana. This has been chattsunami. I'm sorry.
00:23:15
Speaker
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00:23:36
Speaker
Each episode of Serial Napper features a different true crime story told succinctly the way that it happened. Just the facts, ma'am. My focus is on unsolved crimes that need more attention, cold cases, and wrongful convictions.
00:23:51
Speaker
While true crime shows can sometimes be graphic in nature, I ensure that the story is told in a way that is respectful to the victims and their families. Now when it's time for bed, you can look forward to 30 minutes of well-researched and detailed case files while you get your beauty sleep.
00:24:08
Speaker
Find Serial Napper on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Sweet dreams. You know what, I'm not gonna lie, those messages were a bit soggier than I imagined, but yeah. It's the perils of a David Cage month. Oh, sorry, and we're back. So, let's talk about David... David Cage? Let's talk about David Cage! I was about to say, well, let's talk about David Cage and his relationship with Quantic Dream, but yeah, let's talk about Heavy Rain. So, oh, where do I begin with the plot of this? Ha! Is there a place you can start? The whole plot about a well-meaning father called Ethan Mars who, as we mentioned in the intro, he tragically loses his son and obviously he's not got the best luck in the world because his second son gets abducted by a serial killer.
00:24:54
Speaker
You're almost batting 0 for 2 as a father there. Yeah, 2 for 2, much like Jason's odds. It's like, as this family has got no luck. It's the trend of being a dad named Ethan. Well, yeah, Ethan Mars, Ethan Winters. It's 2 for 2 here. If I had a penny for an everyday... And so on. It's just as absolutely baffling. But yeah, no, that aside, so he is hunting for his son. And during that adventure, he comes across other characters who are hunting for the same serial killer, such as Scott Shelby, who is a private investigator who has been hired to try and find the origami killer. You've got Madison Page, who is a walking damsel in distress. slash investigator. Trust me, I'll get onto her character. And last but certainly not least, you have Nam and Jaden. Nam and Jaden. The FBI, just amazing man.
00:25:45
Speaker
That should be his official title. FBI amazing man. Amazing man. I wish I was Nam and Jade. Minus the addictions and everything, but beyond that. Oh god, yeah. and that and So they're all hunting for the origami killer for different reasons. So as I said, Ethan wants his son back as Nam and it's his job. Madison, she's just curious and she has insomnia. We'll get on to that. Scott, he's just doing it for the love of the game. See, overall when you first played this, what were your thoughts on the story overall and the characters? How did you feel about the whole thing? The whole package as it were? When I first played, I think I was like a freshman in high school. So I was like 14 when I first played it. I thought it was genius. I was like, whoa, so you're these four different perspectives and you're all trying to find this one goal, but everyone has their own thoughts on it. There's even a dedicated button to hear the character's thoughts on the situation. And I just thought that was so cool because there's nothing really like that at the time of telling a narrative story of all these different characters and then them interconnecting at certain parts of the story. Yeah, I thought creatively it was a masterpiece. Now, as a 28 year old, I'm like, yeah, it's a little cheesy and a lot of it doesn't make sense. There's some plot holes here and there. but I still think it was really creative to tell the story from these four different perspectives and from one of them being the killer in the game, but you don't realize it until later on. I think that was, to me, one of the more creative parts. And I really like that aspect of that he didn't get like in Indigo Prophecy where it gives away who's the killer, but he learned from this one to keep that a secret until the end. I really loved that aspect of you don't know who the origami killer is until you start really and connecting the pieces together. Fahrenheit's more like Columbo, where they tell you the person at the beginning and then Carla's going around going, one more thing, I see you're reading The Tempest.
00:27:35
Speaker
The person's like, oh no, Nietzsche, your writings have become my downfall. Whereas you're writing this is more like CSI. yeah as you said you have to put the pieces together and be like who is it and it's weird because when you first play this game you genuinely think oh this is really interesting it's a really cool idea that you get to play these four characters see how they interweave with one another but replaying it once you know the twists and everything you're like there's not a lot of replayability like you can if you want to be a sadist and kill them all okay openly say I've probably replayed it about four or five times just to like try to get all the different endings and stuff. Because I just curious how much your choices actually affected it. Because like comparing it to Telltale games where yeah, in the grand scheme of things, your choices don't really affect how the main
Replayability and Choices
00:28:20
Speaker
story goes. But I would say David Cage did a pretty decent job of the story branching off into different paths into it doesn't feel like the same playthrough every single time. Because it feels different if you truly do choose different choices throughout the playthrough.
00:28:34
Speaker
It'll start to feel samey after about the third one, but yeah I think it did a really good job expanding on, well, what if this happened? What if that happened instead of it all eventually branching into the same thing? Because that is something interesting that David Cage has brought up in interviews when he was asked about the concept of the game over screen, for example, and how he hated that in games. And I can kind of understand that to a degree. But then, of course, he asked the question, well, how do you get around that? Because game over screens are a quintessential thing, don't video games you know it tells you whether you're doing good or bad and if you get too many game overs it's like well yeah you're probably doing terrible just mario kart you know but what he wanted to do in this game and i do find it really fascinating is he wanted to take this idea and then say you know what what if we didn't have a game over technically you have a game over in the sense of you can't play as those characters anymore but it doesn't stop the story from going on and it has a wider impact on the world as a whole and I thought that was fascinating both at the time and even nowadays I think it's really cool that that is a thing although then again I say that but I tried playing this on the PC back in 2021 and it kept freezing so maybe my action score It was a bit more damage than I was expecting, but i was like, oh God, here we go. But that idea of the quote unquote butterfly effects, thinking, oh yeah, I'm not going to do this, or oh I'm going to do this, and it has an effect on where your characters go, what they're doing. I mean, for the most part, genuinely, at the time, and again, this came out the same year as Red Dead Redemption, but That is a relatively linear game, although you can approach it and do it at your pace. At the same time, the ending's always going to be the same, whereas for this, it gives you a lot of options. Now, do some of the options make sense?
00:30:24
Speaker
Probably not, I'm going to be honest. Yeah, i was going to say the overall... who the origami killer is doesn't make sense in retrospect. Like if you actually analyze the actions of like, well, this doesn't actually add up. I feel like your first playthrough is always going to be magical of because you simply don't know. So you're not overthinking of like, well, does this make sense? As you said, it's a magical first experience. It's They'll be enraptured with Ethan Mars and Madison Page and so on. Speaking of which, will we go into the characters of this game and talk about what makes them both impactful and maybe not impactful as
Character Highlights and ARI Glasses
00:31:01
Speaker
it were? Because I've got ask, who is your favourite character of Heavy Rain?
00:31:04
Speaker
Oh, by far, it is Nam and Jaden. Yeah. yeah I expressed that from the jump when we were talking about doing this whole thing. Oh, Norman Jaden is my favorite. I don't know. There's just something about one. His accent just gets me every time. I don't know what accent he's trying to do. is it supposed to be Boston or something?
00:31:24
Speaker
That's what I thought. I was like, what kind of accent is he doing? But it always fascinated me. I was like, Nam and Jaden, FBI. He's the, I would say, the most disconnected from being personally invested in the thing because it's just his job yeah as the FBI agent. Because Madison gets herself personally involved. Ethan, of course, his son is involved. And then, you know, with Scott.
00:31:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get to that. Love of the game. but But it's interesting coming from the perspective of he has zero personal stake in this, but he's so determined to solve this because i don't think it's just his job that he wants to do this for. It's just, he just loves solving the mystery of it and his relationships with people. If you play him as a sweet guy, or you can play him as he just flies off the handle. I remember when his partner, Carter Blake, when you go into the apartment of the religious guy, ah you you just start yelling at him like, Blake, that's enough. Blake, you can just start punching him and stuff. The levels of his character are so fun. And I love the glasses. Ari is his glasses system. I don't know where that idea came from, but I don't know. I love that idea. But also, side note, my best friend's name is Jason. So when I was playing through this, in my phone to this day, his name is still press X to Jason.
00:32:37
Speaker
Amazing. But every time I play this game, I'm like, Jason, and I know that he's side eyeing me every time. I mean, to be fair, I feel as if this is one of the games that did damage to the name Jason and Sean. Oh, Jason and Sean. Yeah, just completely killed it. It's like, yeah, don't want to name my child Jason or Sean. on anymore. Oh, yeah. Fun times for Jason and Sean. Yeah. It's actually baffling how thinking about how technology has evolved since and how instead of having the ERI glasses or the ARRI glasses, we have metaglasses. Yeah. Which is now only used by creeps to film people without their knowledge. Where's the cool FBI glasses? Right! you know What were we promised by David Cage? David Cage constantly is like on the pulse of things that are gonna happen, like yeah the AI in Indigo Prophecy taking over and now metaglasses kind of concept, but he's not on the right track of what it's gonna be used for, which is kind of funny. I mean, it's the same with Detroit Become Human, where it's like, oh, buy your own Android for $700, and it's like, ah, yeah, that'll never happen. Yeah. More like $700,000. Yeah, no, it's like, or maybe she can hire it for $700,000. But I was looking at it being like, that seems oddly cheap for an Android Android replay. And I'm like, is that on loan? What's going on? How is it cheaper than an iPhone? Very optimistic about the economy in 2050.
00:33:57
Speaker
in detroit as well is like i mean come on guys it's a fascinating insight but yeah there's a lot of cool technology like when you get to scan the crime scene which is something that i think he actually carried over to detroit become human where it's like you can press a button and it scans your vicinity and it's exactly the same thing it's like you can walk around and scan for clues and i did find that really interesting although it was annoying when you went up and it's like oh yeah i found tire tracks but that means nothing for the investigation i'm like well Why? Although embarrassing confession of the night when I played through it with my friend Adam, we scanned everything, but we forgot to scan the body and went to leave. And then we looked around like, oh yeah, there was a murder here. Whoops.
00:34:39
Speaker
Whoopsie doodle. We better get back. was like, oh God. Is the murder suspect really important finding the murderer? Yeah. Well... It depends, you know. I mean, I'm only the FBI. But I do find Norman's story really interesting because, as you said, he's the one with the most objective take in this whole thing because, as you said, he's an FBI agent. It's just his job. But he's also struggling with an addiction to... Is it tryptothane? Something like that. It's like, bet, trypto, you know? or Yeah. David a Cage, wow. What a genius. Yeah. Yeah, let me take this drug cold. Some purple stuff.
00:35:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, let me take this other drug called withdrawal. It's like, wow, well done. But yeah, he takes that to balance himself out and everything. And he's really shaky otherwise. And you can decide whether or not to, because if you take too much of it, then you start hallucinating at the end. Like you see all these tanks going. They're gonna shoot you like what's going on here? Whereas if you don't take it then he kicks the addiction and everything and it's really fascinating and again I love the idea of it because as someone who owns you know the oculus VR headset one of the older models and I remember the first time I was in that and it genuinely felt as if oh my god you're in another place. place in a room it's like you knew you were but your brain wasn't really connecting the dots you know you were like i'm in a fake place but this looks so real and it looks so lifelike and it feels like that see because i mean you've probably seen them but they're chunky headsets yeah you know they're massive so it's like where are they are ones where i can be on mars doing my work or i can be on under the sea or whatever i think it's mars the sea and the jungle i want to say i think so yeah it's I mean, it's such a cool idea, but as you said, it's his relationship with Blake is probably one of the most stereotypical things Cage has done, where it's like, oh, it's the FBI. They hate the police and vice versa. And it's like, oh, God, here we go. And Blake's, I'm sorry, Blake's just an arsehole, isn't he? Oh, absolutely. It's like, how do we make the most unlikable person ever? And then double it and give it to someone else. Right. Because, I mean, as you were saying before, they break into the house of someone. And I say break in Hey, I'm warning here. And, you know, he's like, no. Breaks down the door. Oops.
00:37:00
Speaker
Yeah, he's like, whoops, here we go. So he goes in and they find out he's just like a religious zealot, but he doesn't really seem like the origami killer. But there's a scene where you can decide whether or not to shoot Nathaniel. And the reason I remember his name is because you look at the compilation video, I actually did a Smash Bros. edit. And to this day, I have no idea. ah You know, like the so-and-so joins the battle. I've got no idea why that edit or that joke came to mind. I was just like that would be hilarious to say 2021 satsu but Nathaniel again a great representation of mental health from David Cage oh of course and of course we get that with Ethan Mars where it's like oh how do you feel when you're supposed to say to your therapist and you say yeah again it's that old trope of video games where it's like oh I'll just say I'm sad or depressed and then he literally turns around he's like I no longer wish to live like what god yeah
00:37:54
Speaker
but I feel like this game gets taken so out of context for like memes and stuff. I feel like there's so many memes with this game. there's hundreds. I feel like other than Detroit, maybe, this is the most memeable game. Oh, by far. There's so many good dialogue choices just out of context. Whereas for the other ones, see off the top of your head, can you think of a single thing you would meme in Fahrenheit or Beyond even? The only thing I would think of is just the first part of the dialogue of where Lucas is like, and that's how my story ends. like That's the only thing I'd probably... Slept in a bar of soap, that's how my story ends. But with Beyond, i don't think there's a single thing I'd really be able to take from that because it's just so drama heavy. Yeah, the only thing I suppose is the line delivery. You know, that infamous level, which again, next week, we'll get on to that game. That scene where she's yelling at Wollum Dafoe, saying, treat me like the other girls. And he's saying, you're not like the other girls. And then she turns around and goes, ha! Like, screaming at her. And it's like, what? Say that again? Yeah, like, Paige, did you not get another chance at this? Or what was going on?
00:38:57
Speaker
We have one take. Yeah, you had one take and you blew it it's baffling it honestly baffling anyway so again that's next week but yeah heavy rain is just so rich in those and even with nam and jaden i know people might be cringing going it's norman jaden you're millennial that he pronounces it as nam and jaden nam and jaden again it's so fun to say nam and he's coming oh he's gonna get the origami killer he's gonna get a philly cheese thing yeah don't know i don't know what to eat i think you It impresses me that no one ever corrected David Cage on the pronunciation of origami the entire time. Genuinely, there's a compilation video out there ah where it's like several different ways to say origami, so it's like origami, origami, origamo. Origami killer. Origami. There's one scene where i think it's Gordy is his name. Yes. When Scott Shelby and Lauren, and we'll get into that, but they confront the son of a rich businessman who is being shielded because he killed a child and they think he's the origami killer. And he's taunting him and he goes, you lied. I'm the origami killer. I'm like, I'm sorry, you want to say that again in the booth? Was that the best take? Because if it was, Jesus Christ. No.
00:40:13
Speaker
Yeah, there's not really much more to Nam in this there. No, it's just interesting how invested he does get when he has the least invested into it. And I mean, that leads on, of course, to the next character, Ethan Mars, who is the, I would say he's the primary, he's the catalyst. Yeah, I would say he's the primary protagonist. Yeah, but you would never know based on the cover. I'm not talking about the original cover. You know I'm talking about. David Cage's interest in women and tank tops and pants, let's just say, which happened in Fahrenheit and for some god awful reason that happened again. But yeah, Madison Page, yeah, is basically in her underwear and the front cover. Definitely a choice. It is a choice and I will rant about that later for sure. Yeah, putting a pin on that, putting a pin on that, because, yeah, I'm sure Wonko is listening out there going, answer my damn question. Yeah, going on to Ethan. Ethan's there. The thing that my friend Adam and I, we were howling at was after tragic event where he loses his son and he gets divorced from his wife and they take Sean home for the first time. And it is the most depressing place I think I've ever seen in a video game. Right. it's like the most depressing apartment he's literally got a room that's just full of bleach he might as well have a room that's full of duck soup at this point again i know why they do it as an artistic vision let's just say for legal reasons but it's like they make it so depressing where he makes a whole pizza but then he cuts his son a tiny slice of it and he watches his son sadly the pizza there's literally a moment where you can just sit in a corner and just stare at your son watching tv and it keeps zooming into him he like why doing this david is this your regular routine with your son like yeah is this your regular routine with bob you can only have a little slice of pizza david bob you're getting too fat you have to how you say the pounds lose the fahrenheit david that makes no sense he's just got psychosis at this point bob's talking back to him Anyway, that fan fiction
Ethan's Trials and Consequences
00:42:18
Speaker
aside. Yeah, Ethan is probably in spoilers ahead, but he is one of the two characters that can technically die in this game. The other one being Scott Shelby, for reasons that we will get into. If you haven't realized spoilers ahead, yeah, spoilers ahead. But yeah, I think it's because he died early on, there wouldn't be a game, you know? So I can understand why, basically throughout the game, he gets all these kind of saw-like challenges. The first one, hey, you ever driven on the wrong side of the road? Drive like a British person in America. So he gets him to drive on the left hand side and yeah, ends up winning. Depending how you play it, you can win it or lose it, but you can't really die. Right. And that fun fact as well, that was the scene that I realized, at least in the PC version. And I don't know why this happened. But when I was playing it, I was playing it with a controller. And for some reason, it's like a semicircle prompt where it's like you go to the right and then you go down halfway. fact, it's not even a semicircle, it's a quarter circle. It's like that kind of movement. For some weird reason, that would not work when I was using the controller. Yeah, had problems that too. Yeah, so had to use the mouse and keyboard whenever that popped up. But there were some really weird instances where it would work when later on you go to the club as Madison and you have to tear your skirt. Yeah, that worked. So I was like, is that perfect? I want to say no, but I'm genuinely curious. So anyway, I learned because I had to do that so many times before I realized, I'm going have to use the missing keyboard that the mechanic you talk to is called Roy. Fun fact. Yeah, he's called Roy because I was sitting there for about 10 damn minutes and I was like, get out of this. Roy, help me! He doesn't have a wiki page. Shame. At least I don't think he does. But anyway, so you do different trials. You're driving the wrong side of the road. I would say the butterfly one, the next one after is the most infamous because it's the electrical one. Yeah, it makes no sense either. Because, mean, not only the fact that the origami killer somehow set up this tube that was filled with broken glass. Right. And don't get me wrong, I won't reveal them yet, but I don't believe the origami killer could have fit in there and then put all the broken glass. I call bullshit in that. Right. And what I also call bullshit is, and again, when I was playing it, there's video evidence of this. I genuinely could not see a thing. And you know, my friend was like, oh yeah, I can see everything because it was brighter than his end. But for mine, honestly, I was in the dark. I was like a mole under
00:44:45
Speaker
ground was like where am i going and they do this stupid thing where it's like you can strike a match right it's supposed to be where the flame's pointing that you're supposed to go yeah now initially i thought you know if the wind is blowing one way then it's going to blow the flame the other way the flame's not literally going to be pointing that's the exit so yeah i had some very choice words to say about that i wonder if mr cage tested that irl to say I wouldn't be surprised if he brought his own broken glass, to be quite frank. How far would you go to save your own son, Bob? I am coming.
00:45:18
Speaker
Now Bob, place the glass in the tube. Damn you, Bob, giving me the silent treatment. I would love to jump in the mind of that man. But anyway, that's another story. Yeah, after that, you've got the lizard one. cat Is it the chameleon? Is it lizard? Yeah, one of those two. Yeah, it's some kind of reptile. Yeah, where you have to chop off a finger, which again is apparently based on David Cage's long lost childhood trauma. The fact that he gives you so many options to chop off your finger. What did you choose out of curiosity for that? i think I chose the knife. I think I was boring and just chose the knife. But I think I've tried so many of the other ones too. And it just I think there's a saw. That one's the worst one. Yep, it is. I can say from experience that is terrible because Adam goaded me and was like, yeah, saw it off.
00:46:04
Speaker
I don't want to. And I tried it. And again, it's because you saw it, but it doesn't go all the way through. So you have saying it is brutal. It's really brutal. And then I was so angry because not only was the evidence under the table the whole time, but it was that quarter circle prompt as well. So I couldn't even get into it. I was raging at that one. But fun fact, apparently, if you don't cut off your finger, then when you're trying to escape with Madison, a police officer shoots off your finger. Oh, I did not know that. Yeah. So either way, you're going to have a missing finger. So it's like, again, that kind of crumbles when you realize the illusion of choice. And you're like, is it the illusion of choice? I mean, that is because you're not really given this choice.
00:46:47
Speaker
Because, yeah, the characters have to be in certain places. And then I think the final one is the final one, not just the white room, like John Lennon's white room. There's another one where you have to shoot the father oh a different yeah yeah of a different child. Oh, yeah. I suppressed that memory and because I got the quarter circle prompt again with a gun. The true enemy of the game. David Cage is f***ing.
00:47:09
Speaker
but like cap but i dont like it i think my worst one was always the gentle twisting the controller one because i'd like half turn it and then i'd be like okay i'm gonna turn it a little more and it's like oh too much i had to do the you know when you were younger and you were playing a racing game and you physically moved your body with the controller but it did nothing that's what it felt like you're throwing it like yeah go go go but yeah as you said you've got the warzone version of that we are running through and not getting shot by the guy very stressful and then yeah after that you get john lennon's white room we yeah imagine haha yeah will you imagine for your son yeah yeah
00:47:46
Speaker
Well, I mean, David did, clearly. But yeah, then you take poison, quote unquote. Quote unquote. Yeah. And yeah, that's where his story ends before we talk about the finale. But I'm going to let you do your own adventure here. Who would you like to talk about next? Scott Shelby or Madison? My God, I'm going to rant about this page.
00:48:07
Speaker
i'll talk about our girl here as as a woman let me give some good representation for madison yeah i mean as a woman i've gotta ask how do you feel oh terrible i'm not gonna lie it's rough but yeah it's not great out here for us women but the initial sequence
Madison's Role and Evolution
00:48:27
Speaker
of him introducing her to it's like who is this woman she's in her apartment she can't sleep she's got no blinds She's i not on these. Her apartment makes no sense. Like that step that she has to do every time to like go up to her couch is so massive. It's like, girl, is this not a hazard?
00:48:44
Speaker
But yeah, the initial introduction is like, oh, she needs help. She's not an independent woman. It's like, oh, great. Right off the bat. She imagines getting kidnapped by these two guys, but oh it wasn't real. All right.
00:48:55
Speaker
And then you learn she's a journalist investigating the origami killer. And for some reason, she's like, well, I have bad insomnia. Instead of going to a doctor about it, I'm going to go to a hotel. No, no, no, no, no. Not a hotel. Come on, backtrack here. A motel. oh my, yeah. The sleaziest motel ever. He's like, are you going to sign the book? but like You paying like cash or card? Here's the key to your room. you know what really messed with my head in that scene, other than the fact he is a total creep and I genuinely thought he would have a smirky, is when he went, Madison Page, 27. And I'm like, oh my god, i played this game when I was way younger than Madison Page. Right!
00:49:35
Speaker
I'm now at the stage where I am older than Madison Page. I had that same moment too when I replayed it, I was like, oh my god. there's no way you're 27 that's what i call shenanigans yeah that's the craziest part is david cage like yeah she's 27 like if there's something i can't believe in this game yeah there's a lot that is one of them but that one's up there i mean between that and ethan keeping these plates you know you keep some in the living room or something and it's like i know that's such a nitpick but i hated that i'm like why would you keep your dishes and this cabinet right beside the table. Anyway, sorry, that I'll be ranting about that for generations to come. But going back to Madison, I think what the tragic thing about her is, other than the facts that we're going to lay out soon, that apparently apartment and the initial conceptualisation, it was David Cage and the other CFO of Quantic Dream. They wanted to make this female character that was very independent and could handle herself. And you can kind of see that par but yeah there was an attempt not a good one but oh no there was an idea i know and's come on now because the thing that really baffles me as the way she was supposed to be introduced was that she was a war correspondent oh did you not know this by the way No, I did not. This is the first time hearing it. Well, this is why she has insomnia, because she's got PTSD, being the war correspondent and everything. And fun fact, she's also the only Heavy Rain character to have her own main Wikipedia page. And i j that baffles me because I looked it up being like, oh, haha, bet you now Ethan Mars, Nam and Jayden, you know, Scott Shelby, they all have their own pages.
00:51:14
Speaker
No, just Madison. yeah That makes sense. No idea why, but okay, Madison page. Yep, 27 pages. 27 years is all I can spend. Oh no. Channel a man or Wesker there. ah Resident Evil David Cage game coming in 2028. Oh God. Capcom are scared. They fear what he can get.
00:51:33
Speaker
Give him Wesker solo game and it would be the best experience of all time. Well, it would just be him falling over Rebecca Chambers for whole thing. And it'd be a basketball minigame. be like, David, come on. You move past this. Come on, man.
00:51:46
Speaker
Yeah, she was supposed to be a journalist and apparently there were levels where you could have gone into the news office and everything and collect clues about the origami killer. That would have been really fascinating. Right. But what we've got instead is, and again, you're completely right, the first introduction is a woman who wakes up from a sudden dream.
00:52:06
Speaker
She is in a tank top and pants. And you go around and you see these shadowy figures running around. And what's even worse, and I genuinely didn't know this was a thing. I don't know if it's maybe been censored in the console versions, but definitely not in the PC. Where again, you can go and take a shower. And I remember going and thinking, and again, i was playing with my friend I thought, okay, I'll just go take a shower. You know, it'll be like Ethan where they take the shower from the perspective of the back and everything. Nope. I mean, other than the obvious part, you can see everything. If you watch the compilation video, I've had to blur out the whole screen. This is just baffling. I was like, you've literally just made a nude model of this person and just slapped her on there. And I thought, you know, maybe David would learn in his next game, Beyond Two Souls. But that, of course, is next week's discussion point. I'll leave that to simmer on your head, Pandalonians. Yeah, so it's very exploitative and I really struggle to see how it's part of, I don't why the French slipped out there, part of the artistic vision. I don't see how it's part of the artistic vision because you've got a woman who is vulnerable, alone, got insomnia, and again, they never explain it's because she was a war correspondent, they just say, oh yeah, I'm
00:53:17
Speaker
Madison Page. Beyond the first level, I personally, I don't know, obviously, this is me from a male perspective, but I feel as if a lot of her levels are very exploitative. Oh, I agree. She comes across three different serial killers. Right. I mean, twice as a coincidence. Three times. Come on now. Because in her levels, other than trying to rompy-pumpy Ethan, which I think we brought this up last week in the Fahrenheit episode, but if you romance Ethan with her, again, it's one of those fade to black you don't really see much, but You still do the taking off the clothes aspect on the dirty sleazy motel floor. Yeah, they literally do it on the motel floor rather than the bed that's right beside them. Also, so what's funny as well is, I know it was realistic for the time, but it's, you know, the physics for the clothes? Oh, yes, it is the funniest thing. It looks like they've been starched to hell. the Rosa. Yeah, they do the deed and everything. It's like, oh, yeah. But beyond that, you're like, well, what does Madison do in between going on the motel floor and getting hit on by creeps?
00:54:16
Speaker
Well, I'm glad you asked, Jules. yeah What happens to our lovely protagonist, Madison Page? Well, I'll tell you what happens to Madison Page, who has her own Wikipedia page. Wikipedia page, you should be called now. Yeah, the page in Page to answer for Wikipedia page. That's her middle name, Wikipedia. Madison Wikipedia page So I'm trying to remember what happens to her because she goes to a doctor that she suspects is the origami killer. He's not the origami killer but it just turns out that coincidentally he's a psychopath. Right. Depending on how you play it either he drugs you or he knocks you out physically and then he ties you up in his basement and goes to drill you. It's very violent and it's very- You have option to scream.
00:54:58
Speaker
Just mash to scream too and it's like why was this even an option? Yeah, but that's the thing, though. The screaming does nothing. I'm not like radioactive, man. My eyes, the goggles do nothing. It's like the X button. My screams do nothing. Yeah, you just keep mashing it, and yeah, then you quote-unquote escape if you manage to. Because there's a really weird, horrible scene where it's like he thinks you're dead, and he's dead and sneezing, and it's not a good time, is it?
00:55:24
Speaker
No, it is it's like, who is this for? Genuinely, who was like, you know what would be a great character developing scene? Because you've got that one. You've got Paco, who's like a sleazy guy. And that's the one where you have to, and again, as I was saying, that's the only time the prompt worked, and I absolutely lost my shit over that. But the fact you have to sexualize yourself, so you go in with a modest blouse and a modest skirt and everything, and then you basically rip it. Yeah.
00:55:53
Speaker
Pull out your boobs. Yeah. Put your legs That's it Do some dance dance revolution In front of these Sleazy guys And then you have to do A lap dance thing for him Because he points a gun at you And then again It's like I think this is where They thought They were doing the right thing By saying oh she's not a damsel in distress Because she's getting out Of these situations But ah she gets herself Into these situations Quite a lot Right. And like the solutions just, oh, well, she just happened to free the ropes of the doctor and then she runs away. And then for Paco, there is the option. But I feel like you have to play it multiple times to know what exactly you have to do to prompt and not take off your clothes. But most of the time when you're playing it the first time, you're going to have to take off clothing items. Yeah.
00:56:34
Speaker
And it's like, who thought this was empowering? It's oh, yeah, she does hit him with the lamp eventually. But who thought that this was an empowering sequence here? and you have to squeeze his balls with a four button prompt. which that was baffling to me when I was like, there is no way this game has a four-button prompt to squeeze somebody's testicles. And it's like, oh yeah, there is. Thank you, David Cage. This is what gaming was missing. But speaking of what gaming was missing, other than that horrible image, and the fact that they zoom in on their face as well at that point, you know what, David, what is wrong with you? Speaking of her meeting serial killers, did you ever see the DLC for this game, The Taxidermist? Yes, I played it, but I have the vaguest memory of it. Yeah, so for anyone who doesn't know, there was supposed to be DLC for this game, which I'm kind of sad there wasn't more DLC, but it was called Heavy Rain Chronicles, I think, and it was supposed to be chapter per character. So the first one was supposed to be Madison Page, and she was investigating the origami killer, and she comes across, again, another serial killer, who arguably, I'm throwing this out here, arguably is a worse serial killer than
00:57:43
Speaker
the origami killer the origami killer at least had i mean it was a terrible ideal and moral code but at least they had some kind of code this guy as the name suggests is a taxidermist and he goes around kidnapping and murdering women and stuffing them it is horrifying it's really creepy and everything and it makes me think that but david cage probably could make a horror games yeah i was gonna say i'm surprised he's never he's always dipped his toes into the horror genre in his games of like trying to put some scary stuff into it but he's never fully tried a horror game and i would love to see him try one as someone that likes horror games i would love to see him attempt one i was gonna bring up for this game the aspect of characters dying and staying dead there's a game from 2004 four, I believe, called Obscure, where you have these five characters and they can stay permanently dead if you do kill them. But it's not the same aspect of Heavy Rain where there's major story implications with these character characters. But I wonder if he did play that game and was like, oh I can have multiple characters and then if they die, they stay dead. Weird game that I know being called Obscure, weird game, but it's one to check out if you've never heard of it. So survival horror kind of game. But I would love to see David Cage try a horror game because he has all these elements to make a scary game. It's just he never fully goes into it. Because I feel as if that is the downfall with a lot of his games. that It's not just that he commits to one idea. It's that has to have several ideas. It's a bit like in Detroit. Detroit become human, you know, you've got that scene where one of the characters is thrown away into a garbage pile and it just basically looks like a death pit androids and they're all zombified and yeah crying out for help. Yeah, no, that messed me up when I played that the first time. I was like, whoa, this is freaky. So it's like, he can do impactful scenes like that, but it's just, I wish someone reamed him in at times, and I think they did for Detroit, that's why it works so well, whereas the other games, it's like, yeah, we'll see where David goes with his crazy machination of the day. But yeah, for this one, again, it is really terrifying, and it's creepy, and again, you can either get the good ending where you escape, you can get another ending where unfortunately perish. But again, this was the only DLC, and do you know why this was the only DLC? No, I mean, I was gonna say maybe they couldn't get all the actors back, but I remember they replaced Madison's voice actor in the DLC. Well, funny enough, you know the guy who plays the taxidermist? It's the same guy that plays Scott Shelby. Oh, right. I forgot about that. No, it's just that I was honestly cackling because I was like, he does sound familiar. And then I looked up and I was like, yeah, man, it's not the same voice actor. Oh my God. Scott, what are you doing here? Scott, my man. So the reason that they didn't do any more was because of the PlayStation Move.
01:00:30
Speaker
Oh. Which, for those of you who are too young to remember, and I can't believe that, but probably there are people out there listening going, what the hell's a PlayStation Move? I had one. Did you? Why? I did. Yes. I've thought about replaying this with the PlayStation move eventually. It was like a fun concept to do because I i know I played around with this game with the PlayStation move, but I never did a full playthrough way way long ago. But yeah, I'd still have my PlayStation move somewhere, but very, oh gosh, the concept of people not knowing what it is. Hey kids, you remember the Kinect? Yeah.
01:01:02
Speaker
you remember the 3DS? The 3D what now? Do you remember the Wii Fit board? was like, oh no. I actually found that the other day. I was like, oh my God. Yeah, I still have mine too. It's like a relic of a bygone, know. still got, and oh God, this is like a whole rabbit hole here, but I've still got, you know, the instruments for rock band. Oh yes, same.
01:01:21
Speaker
I still have some of mine. I've still got the drums and the guitar. Oh, so good. I'll have to stream that sometime so I can get banned from my terrible singing. But anyway, apparently, again, for those who don't know, the PS move was like PlayStation's answer to the Wii, I suppose. It was like motion controls, but it was more responsive and everything, apparently. i never had it personally. I would say, yeah, from the little that I played of it, because I also had a Wii in the Kinect, so think I have a decent comparison. But I remember it was pretty responsive because the sensor on the top of it somehow was just better than the Wiis. But was there any really good games for the playsation move no i think you i could be wrongnky but think dead with premonition hard i believe yeah yeah the PlayStation move? was like, is there any good game? Yeah, you're right. It's like, is there any game worth buying to play with it? I mean, it's a bit like the Kinect. When was the last game that you played that you thought... probably just dance or whatever dance central that was the one that was on the connect yeah i mean i played four dark dreams i played that as well oh that's a forgotten memory oh it's so good well no good it's terrible but it's amazingly terrible I'm surprised David Cage wasn't involved in that game. Well, ironically enough, it's the guy who made Deadly Premonition that made it. Ah, I see. So that makes sense, yeah. It's a different level of weirdness.
01:02:40
Speaker
It's not quite David Cage weird, but yeah, it's another level. But yeah, that's why they never did any, because I think the next DLC was supposed to be Nam and Jaden's, but yeah, they prioritised the motion controls for future iterations of Heavy Rain, and yeah, the rest is history. We never got any more DLC. Oh, give me the PSVR version.
01:03:00
Speaker
Somehow remake this game in VR. Oh, God. What an interesting. Imagine this game in first person. That would be crazy. You have to dive in front of the car for Jason. Jason.
01:03:12
Speaker
just, I don't want to see Scott Shelby's like mug in my face. I'm going to be honest. I don't know how feel about that. think I need therapy. And speaking of Scott Shelby. Yeah, that might be the best place to move on to.
Scott Shelby: The Origami Killer
01:03:23
Speaker
He is an, and spoilers ahead, he is an interesting character, I have to say, because you play the demo of Heavy Rain, they give you his first level. Oh, interesting. Where he goes to this really run-down apartment block and a sketchy part of the neighbourhood, of course. Yeah. And he knocks on this woman's door who's doing sex work and things, so she invites him in thinking he's a client and he just puts the money on the table and asks her questions about her son being killed by the origami killer. So she eventually tells him to bugger off basically after she answers some of his questions and then you get into a fist fight with a thug that knocks her door, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it's a weird one. The only way I can describe the fist fight is it's like heavy rain meets the raid. it's like rotund scott shelby fighting that's like really muscular guy it's like you know the joke you get in those reels and things where it's work strength versus bodybuilder strength it's a bit like that and he just beats the you know what out of this guy feel as if there is a lot of poignancy with that moment i will admit how did you feel about see that introduction with scott shelby how did you feel the game handled it As far as all the characters' introductions, I think Scott has the best one. Because you're okay, you're this private investigator. You're going around interviewing. And it sets you up really well. You're in this sleazy apartment, like you said. And it shows a very good system of, okay, you're asking the questions, but you have limited questions to ask. you've got to really think about this. But your time is ringing out. I have to compliment David Cage on that. It's like he does build this environment of stress. A lot of your decisions like, oh, gosh, I have to do this. have to do this. But I think it's a really good introduction. When you get to the fight, I was like, oh, did David Cage watch some? I mean, I'm a wrestling fan, but I was like, did David Cage watch WWE and was like, OK, we have this big fat guy, but also this really big muscular guy who's going to win this fight?
01:05:15
Speaker
And the blue corner. Oh no. That's the thing though. This isn't the first fight he gets into and I get why he's supposed to be the ex-policeman who's like a grizzled private eye now. He's like a less endearing Columbo to be honest. He's got the jacket and everything for him. And he has asthma too so it's like you're trying to make me believe that this is big guy this portly gentleman can go toe-to-toe with everybody in this city because there's a scene where remember when he goes to the shop and it's like oh sorry mr shelby i can't help you yeah armed gunman comes in what are the odds like oh and then a guy called and this is how much i played the game because know the guy's called andrew and immediately i thought man my co-host did not take not coming on this month well But, you know, it's like you fight against him. I'm trying to think of what else. I mean, you have a shootout at one point and it's like you are literally headshotting every single person. Yeah, but got John Wick over here. It is, it's like Scott Wick. Yeah. It's insane. Oh, I mean, his KD ratio is incredible, isn't it? It truly is because it's like, I understand he's an ex cop, but like pinpoint accuracy. The section I always remember is going into the shop with the typewriters, Manfreds. That is the most stressful part of that game because you're like, oh, I have a minute to wipe down all the fingerprints of everything I've touched. Oh crap, Lauren touched things too. we have to wipe those down. Yeah, I missed one the last time I played it. I swear I always miss one. It's a pain in the back. I hate that level. Because there's always, oh yeah, we've been arrested. I'm like, goddammit. Yeah, no, you're completely right. Again, do you think it's because this game is a lot more realistic that it adds to the sense of tension? Oh, for sure. For sure. I think because David Cage somehow did not have any Mayan spirits or any other supernatural things happening in this one, it just puts you into the game more because you could imagine yourself in these types of scenarios like, oh, this is what I would do. This is what I want the character to do. But the tension is more believable because it's a believable scenario for most of the time. Some a Madison stuff, it's like, okay, I'm not going to get myself into it. a serial killer situation, probably. But for a lot of their so scenarios, it's also just the time limits. You don't know how much because there's not like a timer on the screen or anything. It's like, oh, you have this amount of time. So you're really just like, OK, I have to do this. I have to do this. i have to make sure that I do this. I really liked the tension in the game. Especially, mean, even on more playthroughs of like, okay, well, now I have a better estimate of how much time. It's like, you still don't know what is more important to things. But yeah, in hindsight, though, with that being the most tension-filled scene, it's also the most plot hole filled one looking back on it because it's like, well, how did the origami killer come in here? And then Lauren didn't notice anything. And yeah. So you go back to that one. It's like, OK, this is where the game kind of falls apart as well. But the first time you're playing, you're not thinking about it. You're just like, wait, Manfred's dead. What? How did this happen? You had one job, Lauren. One job. Right. No, you're completely right, though. There are some moments where you do have to suspend your disbelief. But speaking of supernatural elements, do you know the story behind that of what could have been for Heavy Rain 2? I think you've told me a little bit about it. So you know how Ethan has the blackouts and everything? Yes. That was supposed to be a lot more substantial. Apparently the the reason they left him in to begin with was just because they left it too late really and the developments They couldn't really take them out without the game making no sense. yeah So what apparently it was supposed to be was Ethan was supposed to have a psychic link with the origami killer. There would be scenes where when you blacked out, your whole house would be flooded and you'd have to swum through it to get to Sean and Sean would be this round child model floating towards you and everything. And it was really horrifying. Yeah! But what's actually really interesting is, and I was watching one of those, it was like beyond the borders of the game, and everything, they break where you're supposed to go. If you zoom out of Ethan's house in that level, well, I say his house, he's Shaq.
01:09:18
Speaker
to press that track. zoom out of that, apparently, you see underneath there is a whole pool of water there. Technically, they still have the resources from that scene, but they just never use them because that whole sequence was cut. So, yeah, it's just baffling that they were going go in that direction. When I was younger, I will admit, when first heard about this, I genuinely was like, oh, man, that would have been so cool. But see, looking back on it as an adult and playing these other games, I am so glad they didn't do that. Yeah. Are you in the same boat in that one? Oh, 100%. I would have been like, this is not making any sense. No, I mean, it's true though.
01:09:56
Speaker
But I mean, considering this is a game that you know, is focused on catching the origami killer, there's a lot of killers in this game because there's one guy that forgot to mention and I can't remember if his name's Mad Jack. Yes. Yes. who nearly kills Nam and Jaden in a car, which is actually a really horrific scene, because I accidentally got that game over, quote unquote, just the scream there. It's terrifying. And again, you're sitting there going, how many serial killers are in this city? Because, you know, there's Mad Jack, there's a doctor, there's Paco, there's... There's the origami killer. There's the taxidermist. Whether or not Paco is a serial killer, but I mean, he's probably killed people before. He has five people right off the bat. I mean, technically six, depending on whether or not that guy that you chase through the supermarkets in Armin is a serial killer. I don't know, probably. Yeah, it's just baffling. But speaking of baffling, will we just rip off the band-aid and say who the origami killer turns out to be? Yep.
01:10:53
Speaker
Let's address the elephant in the room. Oh, that's cruel. That is cruel, Jules. Jesus. As a big person myself, I can say it. I know. Same, same. We can say it. Yes, of course, the origami killer turns out to be none other than Scott Shelby.
01:11:11
Speaker
ah That's crazy. I know, isn't it? It doesn't have a middle name. I was going to make a joke there. It's not like Leon Kennedy. Scott Leon Shelby. yeah oh scott le shelby yeah I'm glad we're on the same wavelength there. Yeah, it turns out he came from a broken home slash trailer park and his dad let his brother drown instead of helping him because he was too drunk. Can't remember what his mum was doing, if his mum was in the picture at all. oh Um, I think that she was at work, so it was only the dad there. And yeah, because of that one incident, he decides that he wants to test other people's love for their children by putting them in saw traps somewhere. And it's like, was he doing this in the same places? Did he have unlimited cars that he could just say, oh yeah, I've picked up this car, driving the wrong side of the road, or do you think there were different challenges? Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing I'm thinking about is like, what was the access that he had? I know that he was an ex cop. So like, I guess there's some leniency there. But I want to say maybe some of the challenges were the same because I remember there's like a line somewhere about, oh, for the car. I remember he was like, it's been sitting there for a while or something. So maybe some of the trials, if they do them, then he retires them. But others, he just keeps going with them until someone does them. I feel like with the security lockbox, that might have been another one where they mentioned like it's been sitting there. But I think the car was the definitive one where he's like, oh, but this has been sitting here for like years or something. It's like, oh, thank God. Somebody's taking this car away. Oh my God. There was a thought process there, wasn't there? Because as I said, there is no way he was fitting through those tunnels. Like, 110% even when we played through it again were like yeah there's no way he was fitting through he paid someone five dollars to go through it and just like okay just put some glass in here it's like oh this isn't suspicious you know if it was Detroit Become Human they would have sent like a Roomba in there to sprinkle it but yeah it was just some of them was baffling and again i don't get the white room either because it's like where did he find a white room just to be like yeah this is my magrim opus for this nobody's got this far I'm gonna hire it out for the day It's like, you're shooting a film him here. Yeah, you could say that. Would you say his motives are, again, obviously it's not justified, but would you say they're good from a story perspective? I would say so. It's not unrealistic that childhood trauma would make you not think this clearly, but like the extensive planning, because I think they mentioned he became a cop so people would trust him with like their kids and stuff. Yeah. like the extensive planning, because this happened when he was so young. i think he was like 10, I believe, when his brother died. But like this is brewing inside of him for that long. It's a reverse Batman situation of like, oh, this is my villain origin story. Yeah, it makes sense. But with how much planning that needs to go into this, it starts to make less sense. It's like, okay, maybe we should have sought out therapy before doing this. Oh, he's definitely got, you know, one of those lit journal things. He definitely plans them out with stickers and everything. Yeah, because i did think that was a really clever twist that because he was an ex-police officer that he managed to lure the kids into a false sense of security and that's how he weak them up and everything. And, you know, that idea was clever, but everything else, again, you're right, don't know it reminds me of, and I don't know, I've got Silent Hill in the brain. But it's like, you know Silent Hill 2, where it's like it's someone processing their grief and everything? Yeah. My dude, you could have gone to therapy over this. There was no need to have a manifestation of your deepest, darkest regrets here. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. No, I'm not joking. For legal reasons, that's a joke. Don't go to BetterHelp. It feels a bit extra, but obviously a serial killer, so you can give him a bit leeway there to be like, yeah, he's not a nice person.
01:14:58
Speaker
it's it And I mean, there's so many weird moments. The one that really gets me is when Lauren shows up to his house and they become a somewhat duo together. Right. And they're trying to solve the case of the origami killer, unbeknownst to Lauren, of course, just standing right beside him. Yeah. I think there is an ending there. If everybody else dies or gets captured, then she finds out that he's the origami killer if she survives. And she shoots Scott at the grave. I believe so, yeah. Or in the middle of the street, sorry. Yeah, she just comes up and goes, you're the origami killer. And then, poof, that's it. Bam.
01:15:31
Speaker
Good night, Vienna. You can tell I've played this game many a times, that's clearly how it happened. Oh, of course. On it west, God shall be! no offense to the actress, she does a good job, but I genuinely cannot- Again, it's like Nam
Plot Complexity and Player Challenges
01:15:43
Speaker
and Jaden, I cannot pinpoint her accent. It's almost bordering on Tommy Wiseau kind of accent. I did not shoot him, I did not. Oh hi, origami, hello. You know, you're like, it's not- That would be the team-up of a century if Tommy Wiseau and David Cage made something together. oh god, I wish.
01:16:02
Speaker
the room 2. What, the video game version of the room? Press X to throw the ball. Press X to say hi Mark. Oh, hi Mark. Oh, hi Mark. Oh, hi Mark. Oh, hi Mark. Oh, hi Mark. Mark. Mark. Oh god, if only. One day. One day, Mr. Cage, please, if you're listening to this. If you haven't trimmed out already, do please. We need it. Make this game. But yeah, sorry, as I was saying, you're putting yourself as the origami killer unbeknownst to the player, you're putting yourself into precarious situations, including pissing off Gordy's father, I think. Can I remember but if Gordy is the dad or it's the man that... Gordy's the son. But yeah, Gordy has killed a child accidentally and they think because of that he's the origami killer but no, it just turns out the rich person making a stupid mistake but because he's rich he gets away with it. So there's this weird drawn wick scene at the end and it's really bizarre because he storms the... In fact, sorry, even before he storms it and this is something i noticed which again, when that happens twice you do perk up and go where in the Mad Jack section Naaman has his hands tied to the steering wheel and he's going to get crushed in there but then in Scott Shelby sections he's also got his hands tied to the steering wheel and I'm like was this a specific mandate from David Cage or once as a one-off yeah I get it but twice to which i also made the mistake of confessing my love for Steve McQueen instead of Lightning McQueen If anybody who has no idea what i'm on about there, please watch the compilation because, I mean, it doesn't make as much sense there, are but it makes a little bit more sense. But yeah, the point is, it's kind of a weird coincidence. But yeah, you basically go John Wick after that, don't you? Even though you're in really wet clothes, you're basically sodding. Yeah, I'm going to just shoot all these guys in the head. And you do. And you decide whether or not to give his dad his heart medication, isn't it?
01:17:51
Speaker
Yes. That doesn't end well, does it? No. No, not particularly. Of course, that leads up to the finale if you get everybody who's alive or if you get all the characters to the finale alive. Yeah, what did you think of the final confrontation? I remember, I feel like the adrenaline of finding out that Scott's the killer. So like all of your choices are coming back to haunt you somewhat. And then the final showdown, if you've been doing all the trials correctly and you go to the right location. And then you're trying to open up the sewer that Sean's locked under, but then Scott comes in and he's just like, uh-uh, Ethan. No, no, no
01:18:27
Speaker
You still haven't won my game. It's like, come on, dude. No, don't do this. Yeah, I do hear that after but when it's like, oh, you went through all my trials, but you still don't win. That's like, oh, bullshit, dude. Come on. Yeah, sorry. Go on.
01:18:42
Speaker
yeah And then I think it's Norman that tackles him and they have that whole fight scene on the trash compactor whatever. That is such a weird, sorry to interject, that is such a weird scene. Because there's a scene where it's like he climbs up the ladder after Shelby and he's on the, what even call that? Like the conveyor belt kind of thing? Yeah. And he's standing there like, oh, where is he And somehow, again, I know we've made this joke before, but he's a return guy. Like you would hear him coming, even in the heavy rain, you would hear this guy tumbling towards you and he sneaks out of nowhere and tackles you to the ground. It's like, how is he so nimble on his feet? That's what I want to know. But yeah, sorry, Colin. And then you have the police convinced that Ethan is the origami killer and you have to be Madison. i I remember Madison driving her motorcycle in there. It's like, how did she not get shot for messing with an investigation? It's funny because if you feel that she gets arrested and then they shoot Ethan on site, even in front of Sean. That's crazy protocol. Oh, he has his son. Shoot him anyway. What i found really weird as well was see when Ethan comes out at that moment, he turns around to Sean and is like, I'm going to check if the coast is clear.
01:19:51
Speaker
And he pops his head out the door and they're like, shoot to kill. What the hell? And of course, it's Blake who's the head of that. Yeah, he's like, it's over, Ethan, you son of a bitch. I'm gonna get you. Is this because we jumped off a motel roof?
01:20:04
Speaker
That chase scene is crazy. Oh, that is insane. That is so stressful because I pressed the wrong button. I was like, yeah, I want to jump off. And it's like, oh, you want to surrender yourself? No.
01:20:15
Speaker
There's just so many moments like that where it's like, yeah, i want to um i want to go the very moral path. And yeah, have long story short, you end up in a therapist's office as you're watching Blake beat the hell out of That's not what I envisioned my life to be in 10 years. I'm not going to lie. Yeah. This was not in the plan. See, when you first played it, did you get the happy ending where everybody, well, except Scott Shelby? Yes, I did. And like you pointed out now, with the apartment being the same apartment as Lucas's from Indigo Prophecy, I'm not going to be able to unsee it. Oh, that messed with me because I remember someone mentioning it years ago and I was like, yeah, sure, there'll be an Easter egg or something. But I mean, I sent you the screenshot. Yeah. pulled up the picture and i was like oh my god that is the indigo prophecy apartment and nathan's like yeah it's a friend of a friend who's sold this apartment and this is something that i really don't like and maybe this is just a me thing right i don't know how you feel about this but something that kind of irritates me is you know when you get fan fictions right trust me i'm going somewhere with this but
01:21:16
Speaker
You know you get fan fictions where it's like someone will take two characters from completely opposite shows, like for example, let's say the Simpsons X Game of Thrones, right? And it's like if the Simpsons character characters were in Game of Thrones, they'd immediately just be killed off. There's no two ways about it. The same with a Game of Thrones character being in The Simpsons. It's things like that that it just it doesn't mesh with me. You know, I just I can't see how those two types of properties can coexist. Now, the reason I bring that up is because the implication there is, of course, that Lucas Kane is in the heavy rain world. And there's also a reference in Beyond Two Souls when you're playing as Jodie and she's sitting on a bench and there's a guy beside you reading a newspaper that talks about the origami killer and i'm sitting there thinking so is this just david cage's cinematic universe i just i don't see how i mean as we talked about last week all of that bat shit and stuff you know there's the purple clan there's the orange clan they're running about somehow while the origami how much running about yeah scott's actually in the organization 13 i mean how do you feel about that i think it's weird because it just they all feel like their own separate things and then imply that they're somehow in the same one it's just like that's just doing too much considering the different supernatural entities within undugo prophecy and beyond two souls i would love to see madison or ethan's reaction they're reading the newspaper and like oh the president of somalia has just been assassinated right It's like, hmm, I wonder who
Emotional Impact and Visuals
01:22:50
Speaker
did that? And, you know, it's Jodie Holmes running, going, damn, damn, damn, damn. raises more questions. Because, again, going back to one of the questions raised, that this definitely feels like one of the more realistic David Cage games, I would say, where they don't feel like superheroes, do they? No. There'll be someone out there saying, being a dad's a superpower. It's like, yeah, okay, I get it. All right. Yeah, but i mean, you're not flipping over train cars and everything. It's like, come on. Yeah, it feels more realistic. And I think that for me personally is why it resonated with me. Because I mean, obviously when I was 18 years old, I wasn't a father and I still aren't as of record. in this episode but it's quite an innate response isn't it for parents to want the best for their children and if their children are under threat then obviously they're going to try and figure out ways to protect them or you know i mean it's like every film in that genre i mean between the last of us and taken for example is that kind of fantasy of if your child was abducted or whatever what would you do to protect them and you know usually the answer is oh yeah i'd grab a gun and i'd hunt them down and it's like you live in the yeah uk where are you gonna get a gun. like okay they're being but I mean, if it's America, it's like, yeah, I owe three Walmart. I mean, tell me I'm wrong, Jules. Sorry. of i cant
01:24:08
Speaker
Phew, thank God. This is why I've got you on for the episode. Phew, thank God. America expert right here. Yeah, it's that kind of semi-relatability. I mean, again, I'm not a depressed dad either. It is that relatability with the characters that you see the struggle of Ethan who went through this tragic incident and everything. And as I said last week, the musical score in this is absolutely fantastic. I think I've listened to, you know, the main theme of this episode. so many times growing up and I mean as I said the bits that don't work just really don't work with Madison Page and everything and bits of Nam and Jaden's stuff and obviously the Scott Shelby stuff but yeah what do you think though do you think the relatability is the thing that grounds this as one of David Cage's best games I would agree that it's the relatability to it makes it I would say it is the best game. I think that's my stance on it is that it is the best one. You could see yourself into at least one of these characters in some circumstances. I feel like everyone's always thought about if their loved one, it doesn't even need to be their child but if their loved one was in danger how far would you go and you could have this power fantasy even if it's not realistic but I think you'd still think about going as far as Ethan and does for his son or like you have that cool fantasy of like oh I can solve crimes I think what really made me love this game too was I'm pretty sure I played L.A. Noire before this game and I loved L.A. Noire because of the detective aspect So like getting that and then also having it be choice based kind of just made me really attached to this game. and And Detroit tries to go for that relatability, but because it's set in the future, you can't relate to it as much as Heavy Rain. Yeah, I mean, you're completely right. Although he is as subtle as a sledgehammer through a glass window when it comes to his, well, like his narratives about systemic racism and things. And it's like, oh, but there's Android. It's like, oh, you just read a book about Rosa Parks and you that's why you've caught them in the back of the bus. Yes. Oh no, David. And again, in a couple of weeks, we will be talking about Detroit Become Human. What a game. But yeah, for this, although there are heavy, ironically enough, Heavy missteps. At the same time, what works in this game genuinely does work.
01:26:24
Speaker
And I do think at the time, it definitely looked better at the time compared to games that were adjacent to it. But even nowadays, as you were saying before, i don't think it looks bad. It's definitely janky, but it definitely doesn't look as bad as some games of the time. You know the way some younger generations are joking with that, where they go, oh, it's like a PlayStation 2 game. And it's like, you weren't even born with a PlayStation 2 game out. Zip it. But it's definitely a game that I think that, I mean, obviously if you're into that genre and you're curious about this game, it's one of the ones that I would recommend for David Cage's series, as it were. And fun fact as well, I don't know if you've seen this, but I think this is a game as well where we're in the bonuses they have a short film for Kara, you know, the android. Mm-hmm. which is baffling that came out so far back. But yeah, it was that idea of her androids getting built up and becoming sentient and then deciding she didn't want to die and everything. i mean, you looked at this and went, wow, is this going to be the next David Cage game? And technically we had to suffer on two stone Before we got onto that masterpiece but I mean going back to something we spoke about last week that if I was ranking the games, to see it in nostalgia I would probably put Heavy Rain at the top as well. this is gonna sound such a sentimental reason but those several months that I spent playing it with my friend Adam, it's some of the most fun I've ever had in a video game. and going back and re-watching those videos and everything, and you still laugh every time. There's not one time where I've gone back and gone, oh, that was a bit cringe, or that was a bit this and that. It was like genuinely, I was just laughing minute. was like crying laughing. i Honestly, I don't think I could say, mean, granted, we only go halfway through Detroit, but I don't think I would be able to say the same thing about Detroit, and maybe it's just recency bias, but yeah, honestly, I think, see, mechanically, i think Detroit is the better game. i agree. But in terms of... the story the emotion and everything although as we said it has its missteps i do think that heavy rain does a great job i mean except that one scene where he's in grand central station or whatever yeah he starts knocking down people that was about like oh that was a thing mean i completely forgot about it until there i was like oh yeah Yeah, forgot he does that. Or he keeps collapsing in his motel room. And one of the other things I pointed out was, see, when he's got the box and he flips it over, he's got a loaded gun in it. It's like, do not do that. Although, speaking of which, that is, of course, another game that you can indeed use the toilet in, which is now two for two in the David Cage games. Hell yeah. You can use the toilet. I'm like, oh, fantastic. um
01:28:59
Speaker
I'll be on to be able to do it. We'll find out next week. But yeah, sorry. Dropping that on to you. What are your final thoughts of this game? It is definitely number one for me. It's genuinely, I would say probably 15, if not top 10 favorite game of mine. Every time I've replayed it, I've had fun. The most recent was I replayed it for a friend.
01:29:19
Speaker
She had never heard of this game. So I think that's the best experience to me is seeing someone who doesn't know anything about the game experience it. I was playing it for her, but she was like telling me what to do and stuff. And having her try to work through it and see her guesses of who the origami killer were. It's just such a fun experience seeing someone try to figure it out. Meanwhile, you're just like, I know who it is. But i don't know. It's just one of those one of a kind experiences that can't be replicated. And it's such a good experience that whenever I think of my favorite games of all time, it has to be up there for how many good memories I have with it. Oh no, i can totally see why though. That's the thing as well. See if you were recommending people to play this. So would you recommend the PlayStation 3 version or the 4? I'd probably recommend the more updated version. Personally, I just prefer the PS4 and PS5 controllers to the PS3 one. But it's it's mostly personal preference on which controller you like better.
Personal Connections and Conclusion
01:30:13
Speaker
i mean, I would personally say.
01:30:15
Speaker
The PS4 one. I do think that the PC version's a bit janky, at least for mine. And mine's is, mean, I've not got like a super hyper mega PC. That's a technical term. That can run them at a thousand frames per second. But at the same time, it's a decent enough PC that for a game this old, should I run it but it kept freezing at times and there was some technical issues and it was really janky so if you're going into this game if you can play it in the PS4 but if you can't and you have to play it on the PC then go for it because usually it's quite cheap isn't Yeah, usually it's on sale whenever there's Steam sales. I think it's generally, isn't it usually 20 bucks anyway? So it's not super expensive, but yeah, it's usually on sale. Because I think, did they not sell 50 million copies or something recently? Well, it was more for Detroit, mind you. And that is insane that people are still interested in these Quantic Dream games, even beyond the memes and everything. And I think that's why lot of people are so fascinated, because you've got that infamous glitch, you know, at the very end where find Sean. Yes, I love that clip. You keep spamming Sean, but there's times when it doesn't go away. So the origami, I was like, yeah, this is my father. Sean! Sean! Sean! Honestly, it's a guilty pleasure, this game. And yeah, if you haven't played it, definitely. Yeah, what are you waiting for? We've already spoiled it. You might as well play it. Yeah, you should have played it two hours ago. Yeah, come on. What are you doing, guys? But honestly, Jules, thank you so much for coming on this episode. And yeah, not only talking about Heavy Rain, but just sharing your adoration for it. Thanks for having me on. I love this game and I'm looking forward to talking about one of the other games. The other one, it'll be an experience. Oh, can't wait. That'll be like the 10 hour super cut. I won't spoil which game I'm thrilled and which one I'm not thrilled. You'll have to find out. So what you're saying is you're beyond giving not one hint, but maybe two hints. It's either on the tip of my tongue or the sole of my feet. They might never know with that subtle hint. On that very subtle note, of course, where can the amazing Pandalorian listeners find your content? All my socials are badgamestrolls. Twitter, Twitch, YouTube, Instagram, all of them the same handle, just badgamestrolls. Honestly, I envy you. I say this every time, but I envy you for having just such a simple... Thank you.
01:32:53
Speaker
like access to exclusive episodes, early access, behind the scenes, as well as Jules and I playing through this game on the PlayStation Move, for legal reasons that last one's a joke. Well, it is a joke for now. Then you can indeed check us out at our Patreon page, patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. This podcast is a proud member of the PodPack Collective. For more information, check us out at Twitter slash x handle podpack collect. But until next time, next week, we are indeed two souls going beyond Ashland. We'll be talking about that game. Probably our least favourite, I'm going to be honest. But yeah, is that right in St. Joe's? I would say so.
01:33:30
Speaker
Yeah. But until then, stay safe, stay awesome, stay hydrated. And if you want to share in our misery, yeah, you can play Heavy Rain first, but yeah, play Beyond Two Souls. Bye, guys.