Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
The Failure of Beyond: Two Souls || Quantic Dream Month
42 Plays3 days ago
Two content creators. One blackmailer. And an ultimatum so devious it'll shock you to your core. Join Satsu and BadGamesJules as they battle through four of David Cage's most popular games. Which ones have held up the best? And which ones were better forgetten? Let's find out!
Disclaimer: This week’s episode will be touching on themes that some listeners may find upsetting such as abuse, poor depictions of mental health and self harm. Listener discretion is advised.
In this episode, Satsu and Jules discuss David Cage's rather peculiar entry Beyond: Two Souls starring Elliot Page and Willem Dafoe. Despite a star studded cast, why did this game fail to impress the podcast duo? Could this be one of his most offensive games yet? And why did it garner so much controversy when it released? Well get your ghosts ready as we dive in!
This podcast is a member of the PodPack Collective, an indie podcasting group dedicated to spreading positivity within the podcast community. For further information, please follow the link: https://linktr.ee/podpackcollective
Check out all of our content here: https://linktr.ee/chatsunami
Website: chatsunami.com
Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/ChatsunamiPod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chatsunami/
TikTok: tiktok.com/@chatsunami
Patrons:
Super Pandalorian Tier:
- Battle Toaster
- Ghostie
- Cryptic1991
Red Panda Tier:
- Greenshield95
- Danny Brown
- Aaron Huggett
Free Members:
- Middle-aged Bodcast
- Rob Harvey
- Aaron (Super Pod Saga)
- Billy Strachan
- Sonia
Use my special link zen.ai/chatsunami and use chatsunami to save 30% off your first three months of Zencastr professional. #madeonzencastr
Create your podcast today! #madeonzencastr
Stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, stay hydrated!
Recommended
Transcript
Sensitive Topics Advisory
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello Pandalorians and welcome to another episode of Quantic Room Month. While we usually like to keep things light here, this week's episode will be touching on themes that some listeners may find upsetting.
00:00:11
Speaker
These themes include abuse, poor depictions of mental health and self-harm. Listener discretion is advised.
Blackmail Scenario and Ghost Costume
00:00:21
Speaker
Come on, Satsu, we're halfway through the trials, only two more to go, and... Why do you have a bed sheet over your head? Well, the blackmailer demanded that one of us dresses up as a ghost, and, well, this is the only thing I could think of. That seems oddly specific. Wait, why are you the ghost?
00:00:38
Speaker
Because the other person has to play through the next game while the ghost provides moral support. And I couldn't think of a better person to play this one. Well, I guess it can't be worse than the last two games. What are we playing this week?
Skepticism and Initial Impressions of 'Beyond Two Souls'
00:00:51
Speaker
Beyond Two Souls. What? I said Beyond Two Souls? Oh hell no. Come on. It can't be as bad as we remember. I mean, nothing with Elliot Page and Willem Dafoe can be that bad. Uh-huh. And what else do you remember?
00:01:06
Speaker
What I remember? I remember tons of this game! A unique psychological action thriller delivered by A-list Hollywood performances by Elliot Page and Lilam Defoe. Beyond Colon Two Souls takes you on a thrilling journey across the globe as you play out the remarkable life of Jodie Holmes. You just read the Steam description, didn't you? Welcome to Quantic Dream Month, everyone. Woo, I'm a ghost.
00:01:41
Speaker
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the third episode of Quantic Dream Month. My name is Satsunami, and joining me today is none other than the ghost hunter herself. It is Bad, colon, Games, colon, Jules. Jules, welcome back.
00:01:56
Speaker
yeah Thank you for having me. I am so sorry for that. You can call me bad ghost jewels for this specific episode. That is so much better than what we're going to be talking about today, I'm not going to lie. But yeah, how are you doing today? Doing great. We're going to discuss my totally favourite Quantic Dream game today. oh yeah, the absolutely wonderful, fantastic, flaws whatsoever. David, please put down the gun. um Yeah, I'm going to be honest, I'm not looking forward to this one. I'm looking forward to recording this with you, but I'm not looking forward to talking about a game that I have since repressed. in The game, of course, we're going to be talking about. Let's just rip off the band-aid here. The game is Beyond 2 Souls. And if you tuned in to listen to Detroit Become Human, that's next week. If you tuned in for Heavy Rain, that's last week. And you've missed Fahrenheit by about two weeks, so yeah, we've got couple of weeks back. Yeah, this game is probably the textbook definition of disappointment, failure, and sheer bafflement of the human spirit. I honestly can't think of more words to describe how baffling this game is, and it might be a bit weird for me just to jump for the jugular straight away in this, but before i go on to explain why this game is so soul-crushing, no pun intended, too soul-crushing you will... Yeah, what was your experience with this game?
Replaying the Game and Realizing Flaws
00:03:20
Speaker
See, when it came out, were you in the same position as Heavy Rain when you were looking forward to this one? or Oh, absolutely. I was obsessed with Heavy Rain. So when I saw that there was a new game coming out, I pre-ordered it immediately. i was so excited to play it. My first playthrough, deluded myself and I was like, wow, this wasn't that bad. I think the internet's being too harsh. And then I immediately replayed it without having the deluded rose-tinted glasses on. i was like, yeah. Yeah, no, this was really bad. And I just don't want to admit I spent $60 day one price on this. But no, it was so disappointing, especially compared to heavy rain. Yeah, I am in the exact same boat as you. The same sinking boat as it were.
Fragmented Narrative and Mechanics Discussion
00:04:04
Speaker
hopes and dreams i remember as well back in the day i was also you know we talked about this last week i was also a really big fan of heavy rain and as soon as i heard about this game i was like oh my god they've got elliot page wall on the floor can't wait for this game i genuinely was excited because i mean i think wall and defoe is a fantastic actor oh absolutely elliot page yeah
00:04:25
Speaker
Some good performances, some bad, you know, but I mean, it could be said with Willem Dafoe because that is cruel. We can't balance these two souls as it were, but anyway, that's not why the game's called Beyond Two Souls, by the way. In case anyone's like, oh, right, okay. Wait, it's not about balancing Willem Dafoe and Green Goblin? Damn it.
00:04:43
Speaker
wish David Cage just did a Spider-Man game of the heart, Norman. ah Go for the heart. Press X to heart. Oh my gosh. Oh, I wish. If only. But anyway, sorry, my spiral insanity has saved you. Yeah, yes so I saw the cover. I thought, you know, he's got some amazing actors coming into this project. As I said, was in Rapture by Heavy Rain. I thought, I cannot wait to play this. And I was a bit like you that I finished the game and I sat there and I kind of mulled it over and I thought, huh, this wasn't as good. And I thought, no, no, no, no. Maybe it's just I'm not as mature back then. But thinking back to it, if it was 2013, oh my God, I would have been 21. Jesus Christ. Yeah.
00:05:28
Speaker
Yeah, surely I'm not understanding the nuances of Monsieur Cage, you know? Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, I think my scepticism was warranted, because this game sucks. I feel as if, and spoilers ahead, but I feel as if this just takes a lot of step backs from the previous two entries. Do you feel that way as well? Oh, absolutely. feel with Indigo Prophecy, as much as we clowned on it, there was so much potential there and it's of the time period. So I can cut it way more slack and there's way more moments in it that you can get a pass of like, oh, this is funny, even though it's
Criticism of Narrative Balance and Trauma Usage
00:06:06
Speaker
bad. And then with Heavy Rain, like we said, 10 out of 10 masterpiece, no notes, Mr. Cage. This game, it suffers from the problem of not even being so bad it's funny. It's so boring that it's bad, which is unsalvageable in my opinion. If you make something funny bad, that can be recovered and like, oh, play it because you're going laugh. What's the selling point for it? Oh, there's Willem Dafoe in it. Yeah, that is the worst sin for me personally, that if it's funny bad, as you said, then at least you can get a couple of friends over, play and go, ha ha, what joy we're having, what fun! This, if you invited your friends over to play this, you would not have friends at the end of that experience. They would just be like, what the hell is wrong with you? Why? Did you invite me to play Beyond Two Souls? Which, ironically, was going to say, is the only co-op game that David Cage has made is this one, and it's the most boring one. It's so bad, isn't it? The whole story about this game is follows the life of a young girl called Jodie Holmes, and she has a ghost that's attached
David Cage's Controversial Obsession and Spiritual Elements Critique
00:07:08
Speaker
to her. You don't know why, but she has all these powers, and she has a fragmented memory so david cage thought you know what i like memento i'm gonna make a game because i love elliot page oh my god we'll get into that the controversies honestly just you know my hope for humanity mean it's at rock bottom already as of 2026 but with this game it wasn't doing me any favors seeing how you really obsessed
00:07:38
Speaker
he was with Elliot Page yeah it was everything I saw coming out about obsession with Elliot Page and just the weird stuff that was coming out I was just like uh this is just horrible yeah because how do I describe this not even normal weirdness David Cage weirdness, where it's like he had photos of Elliot Page's childhood, there was a controversy where he created a naked model and put his head on it, so when you had the shower scene with the female character Jodie Holmes, that's that actor's body who didn't consent. There is so much all that. Honestly, we will get into it later, but you have to wonder why some point. I'm laughing because if not, I'd be crying. It's just so baffling because don't get me wrong, you had elements like that in Heavy Rain, but I feel as if with this one, you not think they took all the bad elements of Heavy Rain and they just cranked it up to 11? I could see that happening because like you mentioned, they wanted some spiritual elements and heavy rain, but they decided not to. So for this game, David Cage is like, no, we are having the spiritual elements this time. I want them this time. And it's like, David, no, this is not making any sense. No, no, no. It'll make sense. I promise. What helps it not make any sense is we haven't even talked about how the game is purposefully out of order. And you just jump around from different points in Jodi's life. In the more recent versions, you can play it in chronological order, but at release, you were just jumping around. It's like, this makes sense, right? It's like, I guess. Why am I a child?
00:09:11
Speaker
It's like you go from a child to a CIA agent to, I don't know, spiritual. To emo teenager that wants to escape. Oh, we'll get to that. As the disclaimer says, we'll get to that. If you want to fund my therapy pills, patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. if you double it, I'll give half to Jules.
Chronological Order vs. Original Order
00:09:33
Speaker
Because out of curiosity, speaking of the out of order, but you see when you replayed this game, did you play it in order or did you play it as David Cage intended? So I did not play it as David Cage intended on my recent playthrough. So I needed to refresh myself because I had not played this game in probably nine years. So I was like, oh, all right, for Chronic Dream Month, I'll replay this. It can't be as bad as I'm thinking it is. Oh, it was. But I asked my chat. I left it up to them. I was like, do you want the chronological or the new way? So I had never played it in order before. So it was different experience for me. I think it fixes a lot of the problems of the story. But I
Timeline Confusion and Character Dynamics
00:10:11
Speaker
see online that people disagree.
00:10:12
Speaker
But I liked it a lot more in chronological order. But I remember when it first came out, I was just like, why did you do this? This doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, I played it in the way that David Cage intended, and it was just as bad as I remember, because literally the opening scene is her going full-on, I don't even know, there's so many films I watched. You know, she goes full-on chronicle on these police police officers, and it's like, oh, why is she being chased by the police? Oh, why is she bald? Oh, this and that. And then it goes back to her as a child in the beginning, and you're like...
00:10:48
Speaker
Huh. Oh, right. Okay. That's the flash forward. We're going to go back. We're going to see that point. And then immediately after that, we go from young girl to CIA operative in Saudi Arabia. And it's like, huh. You're probably wondering how I got here.
00:11:02
Speaker
record scratches like hmm i don't know it's oh god right honestly let's see without any further ado while we just jump into it and see the good the bad and the downright david cagey-ness of this game oh let's dive in yep and we'll be right back after my therapy session Welcome to Chatsunami, a Scottish variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime
Promotion of Chatsunami Podcast
00:11:29
Speaker
and general interest. Join me, your host, Satsunami, as well as the rest of our Chatsunami team for our takes on these very important pop culture topics. Sir, it's clearly a trap. I accept your page! That happens three times in the film. Every time that general goes, don't do this one thing, he goes, do you know what I'ma do? It's the exact thing.
00:11:50
Speaker
It doesn't well. She had the pointy teeth. What was that about? She looked like Bilbo when he wants the ring back. She did, didn't you? I just want the lightsaber one more time. Parasite says, no, you will get back into your office and work. No, says the man in Zoom. your Trousers are for the working man You're bursting into your hotel room. Honey, we need to go.
00:12:13
Speaker
Leave the kids. You can milk an audition. Oh.
00:12:20
Speaker
That's the worst thing you've ever said in any of the episodes. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out at our website, chattsunami.com, as well as all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:12:36
Speaker
Stay classy and empowered that. This has been chattsunami. I'm sorry.
00:12:47
Speaker
Hello, Twisted Humans. Do you find yourself wanting to know more about the latest murder, conspiracy, cult, or haunting? Then this is the podcast for you. In 1952, there was a record high of UFOs reported. 1,500 sightings. There has been evidence of human sacrifice, devil worship, and it is haunted by more spirits than can be counted.
00:13:14
Speaker
A family of two adults and two kids reportedly saw a giant flying thing with glowing red eyes. And a meanwhile, the family's nanny that helped Veronica to care for her and Lucian's children was found bludgeoned to death in the basement of their family home.
00:13:30
Speaker
I'm Alicia. And I'm Sierra, and this is... Twisted and Uncorked. Well, you know what? I feel quite refreshed after that
Fragmented Storytelling and Aiden's Role
00:13:38
Speaker
therapy session. Unfortunately, we're going to have to dive back into Beyond Two Souls, which will just reset it. But yeah, the things we do for the podcast, It's diving. We can recommend Bob as a therapist. Thank you, David Cage. Yeah, he's a good listener, you know, and a good hugger, according to David Cage. But yeah, I don't want to test that. I'm just going to say.
00:13:56
Speaker
but Yeah, so as we were saying there, the story of Beyond Two Souls is a bit of a fragmented experience. And I can see what he was going for at times. But see, the first time you played this and it was out of chronological order. How did you feel about that? Were you happy about it? Were you confused?
00:14:16
Speaker
I was just disoriented. I was just like, okay, so I can see how this is like an artistic vision, I suppose, we're going to sprinkle in important events and it's not just back to back. Maybe he thought it was too monotonous if you were going in chronological order. So it's like... bam, you're here, bam, you're keeping the gamer on their toes, I guess, so to speak. But i don't know. I felt like I preferred it in chronological because it just made the story make a little bit more sense, especially when you're trying to learn about what is happening, like what Iden actually is. I feel like I had a better understanding with that as opposed to like, oh, here's different points. Iden's just kind of this bad entity that haunts Jodi. Yeah, because it's like in the very first level, that's where we get introduced to Aiden or Aiden or origami. What a choice that the name Aiden is pronounced Aiden throughout that whole game. I've never heard that name pronounced like that in America, so it's just like, okay. It's actually pronoun pronounced Aiden, you know.
00:15:16
Speaker
It's French. You uncultured swank. I For legal reasons, that's a joke. Jodin Aiden. Jodin.
00:15:26
Speaker
He would as well. Sorry, I'm just looking at my notes and I've got a hilarious picture of Willem Dafoe and Elliot Page acting all for one another. And it's just David Cage looking menacingly at both of them in the background. Yes, this is going to make me tons of money.
00:15:43
Speaker
It's like, I can't remember if it was The Onion, but you know the comic where it's the guy at the window and he's got Sicko written across his t-shirt? And he's going, yes! It's just David Cage, like, wee, wee! Oh no!
00:15:59
Speaker
But yeah, the first level is called The Interview, where you play as a young Jodie Holmes and she is basically testing out her ghost powers. It's like a child version of, you know that opening scene in the Ghostbusters thing?
00:16:12
Speaker
ah yeah trying to predict the tarot cards and everything then you get to grips with Aiden, Aiden, whatever you want to say. The thing it reminded me of was Stranger Things. I know Stranger Things came after but I was like, wow, this is very similar to like L in Stranger Things. Isn't it?
00:16:31
Speaker
I didn't realize just how similar they were until were playing and did the Duffer Brothers play this game? And they were like, you know what would make a great series? Well, after watching the finale, I can see why they watched this. they definitely Consulted David Cage on the finale. And then Eleven goes into the beyond with a Native American Navajo granny.
00:16:55
Speaker
and It would have made the finale better, I must say. Yeah, it were true. but That's what we were missing! But yeah, you get to grips with Aiden as the Player 2 character. And I've gotta ask, say when you say it's a two-player game, does that mean there's like a split screen? Or does it mean like when it switches over to Aiden, Player 2 takes control? I've never played the full thing with a friend because I couldn't torture my best friend like that. I'm still best friends with him. So that wasn't the final
Co-op Mode and Gameplay Criticisms
00:17:25
Speaker
straw of our friendship. Thank God. But I remember when we played, basically one of you has control of Jodi. And then when there is Aiden sections, they take over. If there is sections where you're controlling Jodi, but Aiden can also be controlled. It's basically one of you sees as Jodi. And then the other is just like, it basically switches over to Aiden when you can and I think that is the weirdest way to have a co-op set up compared to like all the other. I love how this one, though, he was like, OK, I'm going to try out co-op, see how people like it. And then everyone's like, we don't like this. OK, I'm never doing co-op ever again. yeah it's like finish the script first. Yeah.
00:17:59
Speaker
it yeah It was so weird to try. i don't know if you've ever played any of the Super Massive games like Until Dawn. Yeah. Where at least in those, most of the time, either you switch the controller or you both play as two different characters. David Cage was pioneering of, okay, we're going to do co-op, but you play basically as half of the character each. What a wise man. Going back to Ethan Mars cutting the pizza, you can have one small character and you can have the big one. This is my main character. It's the definition of giving your little brother the third party controller. oh yeah, the mad cat's controller. Yeah. I mean, it's true, though, because I have to say, and it's something I mentioned in the intro there, but the gameplay for this, and there's a lot of people laughing, going, what gameplay in the David Cage game? But the QuickTime events, it feels as if it's going to step back, because not only do you have all your favourite QTEs and whatnot, but you've got a really weird thing where there's some action scenes throughout the game where you have to guess where the game wants you to point towards. So it's like they say, oh, look at Jodie punching straight ahead. So it'd be like, oh, you have to go right. But it might be she's going to kick and you go to go right. But like, oh, no, no, no. It's actually southeast. You have to point. and like, how would I know that? Right. is It very unclear. But something else that really baffles me, and it's something that he's brought up in interviews about Fahrenheit, where he talks about the idea of the game over screen in games. Something that was interesting there was, obviously there are game over screens, as you found out, of course, with Lucascaves. Eddie's addiction to duck soup and alcohol, but yeah, it was like if you got your mental state in a low enough state, then that was it. You were done. You couldn't continue further. But in Heavy Rain, it was like if you died, you could still keep playing the game, but that character was out of the game for good. Whereas in this one, you can probably fail everything and nothing really happens to jody no because jody has to be alive throughout the whole game because david cage was like oh i could make several characters but but i paid so much for elliot page to be in this game sole focus yeah i mean i would have played as well before to be honest i wouldn't have minded where's the dlc it's like you know when people murder and it's like they swap the character models Yeah, where's the Wollum Defoe mod running around? That's a weird thing as well with David Cage games. There's not a lot of mods. And I think probably the reason for that is it must be a nightmare. I can only imagine. Yeah, I mean, I'm no expert in coding games and
Inconsistent Powers and Genre Confusion
00:20:33
Speaker
things like that, but I can only imagine how complex it must be to root through and be like, you know, we're not going to have Shrek as... Scott Shelby or something. Someone write that down. David Cage, if you're listening, go But yeah, the gameplay is just awful because you've got that side with Jodie and her ambiguous directions. But then you've also got Aiden who basically floats around and really does what the plot needs him to do. You know, it's like, oh, he has to possess someone. oh he has to kill someone. Oh, no, actually, he can create force fields. And you're like, can you just pick like a handful of powers? No, no, you're going to just choose everything. Oh, I can flick away angry ghosts as well, which is really weird. It was weird for me because i could see the vision of what he was trying to do of, oh, you're going to have this supernatural entity instead of just the supernatural stuff happening to you. And instead of just being like, oh, superpowered in Fahrenheit, it's more of a second thing that you can control, but Jodi can't control it. And it's up to you. It's basically like a morality kind of meter in a sense because of how much Aiden can either mess with Jodi or if you just choose to do nothing. But to be honest, if you choose to do nothing, it's way more boring of a game. It's like, oh, Aiden's on his best behavior the whole game, you're kind of just not even really playing the game that much. I mean, there is one scene I will come on to later, but yeah, if you do nothing with Aiden, then it's a very uncomfortable scene. What was the term I used in the Fahrenheit episode? Ghost cuck?
00:22:04
Speaker
That's all I'll say for now, but yeah, that was interesting. I don't mean that in a positive way. Again, there's no real substance to it I mean, there's action scenes, which I can't believe I'm saying that in a David Cage game, because ironically enough, what I will say is I think Detroit refined it better and did the action scenes really well. And even in Heavy Rain, they did it well. But yeah, for this one, it's like, oh, great. We get to be a secret agent. Yay.
00:22:33
Speaker
Jodie, are we the bad guys, Holmes? yeah Here's an interesting quote that i found right from David Cage, and bear with me here, it's not as terrible as you might think. So something that David Cage spoke about when he was talking about Fahrenheit was his desire to make something a lot more mature. in video games because a lot of the video games that he was playing wasn't really maturing alongside him you know he was getting older but the video games were still just as immature and just as kind of juvenile and he came away with this quote and it's a quote that someone brought up as well in the section of this game that he said if this industry wants to mature and evolve then we need to talk about emotions and and work on stories that appeal to all people, not just hardcore gamers between the ages of 15 and
Mature Storytelling and Overuse of Trauma
00:23:22
Speaker
17. We have a much wider market out there just waiting to interact if we can go to them with the right ideas. Yeah, they missed the mark on this one, didn't they? I was gonna say, was his demographic in mind edgy Tumblr girls at the time who could be like, I'm not like other girls. I have an anomaly that follows me around and messes up my life. I don't use this lightly, but it's such a fan fiction character, isn't it? It truly is. In case you're listening at home, and spoilers ahead, by the way, because we're going to be diving deep into spoilers, but there is a lot of trauma in this game that basically borders on misery porn, and... It's something that, I don't know if you've noticed this as well, but it's something that there was a few games that were around the early to mid 2010s, where if they had quote-unquote strong female character, the way that they would make them a strong female character was by putting them through an obscene amount of horrible situations or trauma. The ones that come to mind are, of course, this game. You have Madison Payne. Age in Heavy Rain, you had the Tomb Raider series, that was crazy, and then you had Life is Strange. It does feel as if David Cage has kind of picked up, again, I'm not saying these are the reasons why he made Jodie the way she was, but see from a female perspective, do you feel as if this whole game is just, for lack of a better term, a misery factory? Oh, yeah. From my perspective, I would say it really feels like it's the trope of suffering builds character. yeah And oh, because Jodi's a woman, we have to show how emotional Jodi is. And Jodi has several mental breakdowns throughout it, but it's all justified, in my opinion, because imagine you do have this thing attached to you that you have no control over. And then you also have these people in your life that just aren't helping you in the slightest. They're actually making everything worse. So so I would say it's complicated because I can understand Jodi's emotions throughout. Like I completely understand it. But at the same time, it's like, could we not have any sections where Jodi's having any sight of a good time? Because she goes to the bar as a teenager and even that she's getting assaulted by the end of the section. so it's like everything that she tries to have fun in life, it just gets ruined. And it's like, why did we not have any sort of fun for Jodi throughout the game? But also fun fact, I just looked it up. There are only 70 fan fictions about this game. 70? Only 70. I mean, that's still a lot of fanfictions. Yeah. I'm assuming it's like everything after the game because they don't want to touch the actual game with a bot. Yeah. The first one I see is a supernatural crossover so can take that as you will. Yeah, I can see it.
00:26:02
Speaker
I don't agree with it, but can respect the vision, you know? Yeah, the whole game is just trauma after trauma. And again, it reminds me all of, you know, the old days when people made an OC or something online and it was like, oh, look, my character suffered through all this trauma and they've been beaten and they've been assaulted and things. Oh, but they've also got all these cool powers and they're strong, they're resilient and Again, there's nothing wrong writing certain characters in that way if you know what you're doing. But with this game, it is honestly such a whiplash because it goes so back and forth between what genre David Cage has decided on that
Gameplay Inconsistencies and Out of Place Levels
00:26:43
Speaker
day. Right. Because some days it was an action game, some days is a young adult rom-com. Right. Right.
00:26:50
Speaker
The genre slicing back and forth is, like you said, it is very whiplash. Because just to give context here, there is a whole hour long section where you're in a war zone trying to kill what you think is a war criminal, but turns out is not. And then right before that, though, you were on a date with someone and you were like cooking dinner. Like it was a date simulator. so So the whiplash is extreme as to what is quote unquote gameplay in this game. Because, I mean, even at the very beginning, and if you play it as David Cage intended in the fragmented storyline, then you go from, as I said before, you go from that intro where it's like, oh, you're at the police station, and all of a sudden you've killed all these ah police officers, and then you go to Jodie as a young girl, and you think, all right, okay, we're going back to the beginning, and, you know, we're going to build up and everything, and then all of a sudden the horror forward to oh yeah remember when jodie was a cia agent in the middle east is like ah what it's like beg your pardon yeah yeah she's in saudi arabia and yeah it's just a baffling scene because that whole section never comes up again and again there was controversy because apparently and the ps4 version because of the lighting the skin of the guards was lightened and david cage said it was because of the better lighting and whatnot, but of course there was a lot of allegations towards racism, which honestly added to the queue of the Roman David Cage. Yeah. And then of course you've got the big sleazy chic and everything. One thing I found quite weird and funny at the same time was when you wander about the party, I wandered up to the band that we're playing, and of course it was all a bunch of men that were playing, and as soon as I walked up, they all stopped, and they just stared at me, and I was like, is this a game bug or is this a change in the world?
00:28:35
Speaker
like oh I don't know, it's like, you spend the whole time in the toilet, you're just playing as Aiden trying to get in, but what's funny is, see if you come out of Aiden's ghost state, as it were, you're just stuck looking at Jodie with her eyes rolled back in the toilet and her nose bleeding, and you're like, wow, this is in this is uncomfortable. this section nothing of consequence happens in that that level could have been cut out and you wouldn't have missed anything oh 100 because i don't think it even builds any relationships or such because it's the first time you're introduced to her colleague and i'm calling him colleague who's like 10 years older than her very uncomfortable he becomes a love interest like later on and i don't know they've got the chemistry of lukewarm toast I would say. Yeah, I don't know what either see in each other because they're just both so awkward around each other. It's like, what do we have in common? Oh, well, I did steal you away to go be in the CIA. Yeah, that's like, oh, that's a very uncomfortable considering. i think she's meant to be in her early 20s when he finally comes out and says, oh, you're joining the CIA. But there's a scene later where he's like, yeah, I used to be married. It's yeah i've been divorced and you're like you're venting to someone that's 10 years younger than you like i know age gap relationships for adults exist and everything but there's also a power dynamic there because he's essentially more of a boss than on the same level as her so it's just i don't know what david cage saw in this i know it's a staple for him at this point to put questionable relationships But I feel like at least with Ethan and Madison, there's some sense of plausibility there of that working. But with this one, I'm like, where? How? In what universe does this work? Because he's one of the love interests and the other one is just a random guy called Jay in a Navajo reserve.
00:30:23
Speaker
but Yeah. That honestly shocked me. i had to do a double take at the end because when the game ends, you can choose...
Romantic Choices and Deleted Scenes
00:30:30
Speaker
I actually chose him my first time around because I did not like Ryan. I was like, you know what? I'm going to go live in the desert because I do not like this dude. And know I'm jumping way ahead, but it's like, where could you go? Oh, you could either end the game alone. You could go with Ryan. You could go with Jay or you could go with the homeless people that you meet earlier on in the game. And it's like, this is really weird choices because nothing other unless Ryan dies or no one's right. That's it, unless Ryan dies or the homeless person dies, then there's nothing significant you can do to change that outcome. But it's so bad, isn't it? Yeah. There is something disgusting about that, which, again, when we get to that level, we will talk about it. something that does influence your romantic choices and that's something that happened to me in the first time i played this game but yeah that's what we're saying the whole game can be split up into three or four sections you know you've got the childhood of jodie you've got her cia years you've got the on the run years and then you've got the son of a bitch yeah Back in the In the child years, apparently there was a deleted level for this where you could technically play as her as a baby. Oh. I have no idea why. i don't know why they had to go that far back. But yeah, apparently it's in the game. David, I'm glad we didn't get Birth Simulator. Thank you for that one. Actually, we did deliver a baby at some point, so. You do. But at least we weren't the baby.
00:31:58
Speaker
Ah, David, you son of a bitch, you swindled us again. Let's talk about the whole childhood aspect, because some bits are quite interesting. You know, you've got the foster parents of Jodie because they realise that she's got all these powers and everything, but she's trying to deal with them. The parents aren't really coping with having a supernatural child. It's quite heartbreaking seeing this poor wee girl be taken to this military base and told, okay, you can share a room beside Lucas Kane.
00:32:29
Speaker
as it were. it's quite heartbreaking. There are some moments that are quite good like that. I think what made me more upset was they knew that she was going to be a supernatural child when they adopted her. They weren't just bamboozled like, oh, she has powers. I can understand to that extent of like, oh, this is very hard on us because we didn't know. so but They fully were aware going into it, which doesn't mean that it negates being frustrated, but you'd think you'd have a little bit more empathy because the dad just straight up, I was done with him from the jump because he's just like, Jody, why can't you just control these powers? Why do you have these? and it's like, dude, you were part of the adoption. Unless your wife just adopted and you were just unaware of how this was going to go. what do you mean, Moronamawaterbis? Where are we?
00:33:11
Speaker
Dude, look around you, man. He just signed the paper and didn't even read it. It's like, honey, can I? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm watching the big game. Wait, who's this baby? Why we have a baby now? Yeah, he was just a dick. There's a lot of characters like this in the game where it's like, what's your job? Okay, you're a dick, you're an arsehole, and you're a prick. Okay, fine. Come through. Come through.
Character Relationships and Narrative Pacing
00:33:35
Speaker
Wow, you're so multi-talented.
00:33:38
Speaker
what we're looking for yeah i mean it is quite tragic in that sense and i do like the relationship that jodie builds with willem defoe's character which says a lot i'm calling him willem defoe's character and not his name completely forgot his name i'm like trying to remember it too without googling nathan dawkins that's yeah dawkins wikipedia huge shout out Oh, yeah, it's Nathan Dawkins. See, I like that relationship and side tangent here about what I do like about this game. I think the whole idea about Nathan losing his family was done relatively well, except for the scene where he's like, look at them, they're so happy, and it's these screaming ghosts. But I do you find that quite poignant when he gets a phone call when he's at work and his wife and daughter are in a horrible car crash. And Jodie becomes a somewhat surrogate daughter almost to him. They're obviously duties profession, but as well, he always looks out for her when he can. I thought that aspect was interesting. They obviously shat the bed at the very end when he just goes to Green Goblin. i wish they kind of focused on that more but they do this really weird thing in the jumbled up version where they add the reveal that he's lost his wife and child at the end of the game or near the end of the game rather than at the start of the game or near there and i find that really weird that they save that as a oh look it's a surprise he's no got a wife and daughter and you're like that would have been crucial information yeah i think If there is something to compliment about this game is I do like Dawkins and Jody's. Like you said, Jody's like a surrogate daughter to him. And I did really like the section where you do get the phone call and Jody becomes like a spirit medium in the sense to give Dawkins his final goodbye to his family. I thought that that scene was played out really well and you can just feel the emotion in it. If you've lost someone, you could just feel how broken someone is just finding out that news and then Jodi trying to give them that closure. I really liked that. That section of the game I thought was probably the best of any of the sections, which is a pretty high praise for how this game goes. But yeah, I wish we got more of their relationship as Jodi got older, but they did unfortunately basically lose touch as soon as Jodi got to the CIA. And her whole relationships at that point was just Ryan Clayton and she had no one else to really talk to. And then when she goes to the homeless group, I did like that section. You can see her trying to bond with people after just not really being socialized because she's just been around adults her whole life. That's a fair point because she is quite awkward, even when she's younger, thinking back to, you know, the birthday party scene where... Oh, man. Yeah, she doesn't know how to interact with them. And for some reason, there's a random British boy there, but he speaks. And you know that really weird, oh, we need a British accent. And it's like, a say no more, fam. Oh, right. Okay. I'm British. And it's like, oh, for fuck. Oh, Jodie, where are you from? yeah.
00:36:36
Speaker
Oh, God blimey. Yes, they put a 45-year-old British man. I'm not that old. Come on, then. I meant the accent.
00:36:49
Speaker
Britain has two accents. You have young you have young British lad and then 45-year-old British lad. Young teenage heartthrob or Dick Van Dyke. There's no one between. Those are the two stages of life. It's like there's no one between. It's just one day you wake up and your back hurts. You can't go down the chimney like your you used to.
00:37:10
Speaker
Anyway, sorry, my broken dreams aside, that scene baffles me, because on the one hand, know, they're acting like normal teens, being like, oh my god, I don't like this music, oh my god, what is this moldy old book? And you're like, oh, that's a teenager. But then they do this stupid thing where they're like, oh my god, she's a witch, let's purposely mess with her. Right, like, what did you think was gonna happen? like, what did you expect? And yeah, I tried to burn them, but unfortunately they got out in time. Right. I was like, God damn it. Satsu approves of child burning. No, I approve of witch burning. There's a difference. No, sorry, let me rephrase that. I approve of, if I don't want to finish, for legal reasons, don't want to finish your sentence. Your honour. We approve of arson around here. Yeah, we approve of predetermined revenge. But yeah, it's like, what did you expect was going to happen? It's like, oh, ha ha, isn't it funny that we decided to lock this person in this cupboard? I was like, oh my god, you guys are idiots. It's David Cage. It's like, oh, David, you are a genius. You know, you're like, oh no. But the thing is, I thought it was interesting before that she had a relatively normal childhood, obviously other than being in that room. But also what was interesting was the only time she was really in danger was when the spirits attacked her. And then eventually she had to come to terms with Aiden protecting her and everything. Now I thought, okay, right, that's all fair and good. That's why she's so awkward around people. Also, fun fact in that, party And I think I text you when that happened, but I remember I was in the kitchen part of it. One of them offered me the devil's lettuce, let's just say. Right. I didn't see it. I just saw the pizza boxes and I thought, hell yeah, I'm hungry. Just pile some pizza up on me. And then suddenly brought out the joint. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. No, it's a doobie. This is the weirdest pizza I've ever seen.
00:39:03
Speaker
so small and smoking. Now why am I hungrier? This pizza doesn't satisfy me. But yeah, I find it so weird that no matter what you do in that level, whether you kiss the Dick Van Dyke boy or...
Illusion of Choice and Superficial Development
00:39:17
Speaker
or not. They'll either call her a slut or a witch or whatever and then lock her up. It doesn't matter what you do. This is predetermined. It's like, oh, right. The power of choice, David Cage. Thanks for that. And then after that, it just, it goes downhill to be quite frank because ah this is probably the best place to talk about that level like other girls where i think if you choose revenge and attack them, then that's why you turn out to be quite goth, emo kind of... like makeup clothes and that level but if you decide just to walk out you go out dressed relatively normal your hair's not dyed or cut or anything it's not a phase is that a phase mom it's who i am i don't know why that's her voice sorry i don't know yes me jody holmes it's like no no how do you fellow kids how do you do it played by steve buscemi That would be amazing. Anyway, David, write that down.
00:40:12
Speaker
If you're still here, write that down. Yeah. Other than the fact you get one of the most hilarious line reads in the game where she asks to go out and the Green Goblin essentially says, You're not like other girls. She says, yeah, you have to stay in. And she does this thing where she screams at him. And you know how normally teenagers, they'll throw a safe hat or whatnot scream and go, ah, but that's exactly how she says it. She goes, ah. And you're like, Elliot, my man, the page master, you want to take that again? Exactly. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. David, what is the scream context here? Just scream. Don't worry about it. ah
00:40:48
Speaker
Scream like a Bob is no longer in the bed. Like a, ah. Oh, okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. Thank you, Master Cage. Lovely direction. Oh, God. And speaking of direction, this is where we get a bit serious for the moment. After Jake Paul's in his bed. Yeah. But yeah, this is the infamous level of the game. And weirdly enough, it influences a lot of the choices later on in the game. so So basically the premise of it is you're a teenager and for some weird reason, I don't know how there's a chapter missing here because she's like, oh, I want to go out and party with my friends. And it's like, okay, first of all, you weren't even allowed off the base for one. And second of all, what
Assault Scene Criticism and Narrative Impact
00:41:29
Speaker
friends?
00:41:29
Speaker
No, I was so confused by that. Like, what for no offense, but what friends? Bob. Bob. I am coming, Bob. It's I, Johnny Holmes. Mr. Cage, please. Get out the mocap. So, yeah, that plot point aside, if you play your cards right, you manage to basically possess one of your caretakers and get out of the facility. And once you get out the facility, you go to this sleazy random bard in the middle of nowhere. I don't know why they agreed to meet there because it's like okay right oh you want to go out to like a cool bar or whatever be rebellious yeah pop off whatever but this place is literally in the middle of nowhere isn't it and what's even worse as the actor who plays tod from Detroit Become Human he's in this bar as well and he is not a nice man neither of them are and this is probably the worst scene of this game there's a lot of terrible scenes that kind of root from this but one of the horrible moments is where you go into the bar and there's these two guys at the bar and they basically are sleazy over Jodie now in the game you can go to the bathroom And if you use Aiden to spy on them, they basically say like really vile and horrible things about this literal 15 year old girl, this child. And the game never says or never really prompts you to say, oh, I should probably leave or, oh, this is a bad idea. Oh, I've left the oven on, you know, put on any excuse here. But they don't really give you an out unless you physically go to the door. But if you're a first time player, I remember the first time I played this, I just stayed because I thought, oh wonder what. happened Nothing good. us all'll say but what ends up happening is of course the kinderanggo into playing a game a pool and then they get very handsy and basically they assault jody on the pill table to which you take control of biden and then you
00:43:20
Speaker
basically it Depends how far you want to go, but i think you can essentially just kill them. Like some kind of weird power revenge fantasy thing is really bizarre. And what's even weirder is, see if you're trying to romance Ryan later on. See the scene where it's like you go to bed. If you get that outcome where got assaulted in the bar, then you can't romance Ryan because she has PTSD flashbacks to that moment. And I don't know, just, doesn't sit well with me. Yeah, what were your thoughts on that level? Because just, it's not great, is it? No, I wish there was some sort of other outcome. It reminds me of the Madison section when she's in the club with Paco. Yeah. Where after like a couple of play-threes, you can kind of figure out a way to not take off her clothes, but like still the scenario happens regardless. And it is very uncomfortable. David Cage did not handle just an assault thing properly because like you said, her just constantly being traumatized after that, like not saying that trauma doesn't stick with you, but i don't know. It's sending the message that you can never get over it or that you can never move on from it because it's just going to constantly stick with you. But yeah, it was a really icky section of the game and I did not like soon. And what's even worse, and I feel as if I have to point this out, was that when I was doing research for this game, i found out that apparently there were some data miners that looked into cut content for the game, and one of those was of course, as we were talking about before, the baby Jodi level and everything, but one of them was that they found both audio and unused scenes where there was a possibility that if you didn't intervene as Aiden, then they just, I don't think there was anything obviously graphic shown on the screen, but just the possibility that you could just allow it to happen. as Aiden and that could be an outcome and the fact that there's recorded lines for
Forced Trauma and Ethical Concerns
00:45:07
Speaker
that the thing is right if you're gonna have a character that's gonna be traumatized by something and it's a core part of the character you obviously have to handle it with care and everything but I feel as if with David Cage not only is this just a run guy that's deciding oh I'm gonna traumatize her because it'll make her a stronger character it's the fact that this is just one and a very terrible one but one in a series of trauma after trauma in this game because as we said she gets traumatized at the birthday party she gets traumatized by ghost zombies she becomes homeless at one point and that whole section I don't know how to feel about that because I do agree I think the character interactions are really nice but again it links back to david cage's weird perspective of saying and again i'm not saying oh all homeless people aren't noble or whatever but it's like they're always portrayed as the silent heroes and things you know like in fahrenheit for example where it's like it's the same thing oh they're a secret organization whereas in this it's just more people who have fallen in hard times and everything and Again, there's another scene in that where Jodie gets propositioned to perform oral sex on someone for money. There's two opportunities where you can attempt to commit suicide or self-harm. It's just, you sit there and you do think it goes beyond, I don't know, it just goes beyond trauma and having this as an integral part of her character. It just feels as if he wants to write a CV of trauma at this point. Right. One thing in like a TV series, because you're not personally affecting it, I think where it comes down to with this kind of stuff is as a player, you feel some sort of responsibility for what happens to your own character. And it's like, why would I want my character to suffer this much? You know what i mean? It's one thing like in a cut scene where you see a character oh like Leon S. Kennedy suffering through the zombie apocalypse. You're trying to get through it. But with this kind of scenario, it's like, well, it's your choice whether Jodie suffers or not And it's like, well, why would I want her to? And the fact is the game actively stops you from doing that in the first place. So you're like, well... Yeah, why even have it then? I mean, we could ask David Cage a lot of questions of just why.
00:47:15
Speaker
Yeah, that is the main question of this game. It's just like, why? Because, yeah, it flips back and forth and you have the CIA stuff and whatnot where life relatively seems to be going all right for her. Minus the deposing a legitimate head of state. Yeah. There's another whoopsie doodle in the long list of whoopsie doodles, but yeah, it's like, also, let's have group of YouTubers set fire to a house where homeless people are staying, which don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's plenty of evil people out there who would do something that horrible, but yeah, again, Jodie at the very end, although she saves them, or actually, fun fact, you can leave them to burn in the building, so at the very end, if you choose the beyond ending where you go to the afterlife, they're all waiting for you it' Like, oh, that's awkward. Yeah, that'd be a little awkward. Yeah, well well, it's better than my ending because I only had one Navajo old granny in a wheelchair and this, like, white void. I was like, oh. Come and join granny. She was honey. I was like, no. Oh, I just, I genuinely couldn't believe that when I was sitting there going, oh.
00:48:22
Speaker
like hope that's as awkward is awkward. It's like, well, good news. i'm only killed off one person, but you can't save that person. But after you save them, of course, you get beaten up. And what I find really weird is after you get beaten to a coma and then you get taken to the hospital, then you read a newspaper or something. that It's like, oh, yeah, the homeless people are fine now. They all got jobs and roofs over the head. Oh, OK.
00:48:46
Speaker
and Everyone lived happily ever after, except for Jodie. Except for Jodie, she's still got trauma. But let's see, what else can we add to her trauma? Oh yeah, her mother's catatonic. As well. That's delightful. And you have the option to provide assisted suicide, which again, David, you're not qualified for this type of storytelling.
Navajo Level and Supernatural Elements
00:49:06
Speaker
We hate to tell you, but... yeah I'm sorry, but no. You go to the desert, where my least favourite level in gaming is... It is such a bizarre, why was this even included level? Oh, I hate it. Like, there's some fans of this game, and you are a fan of this game, whatever, that's absolutely fine. But I've heard people say, oh my god, this level is beautiful, and it's very scenic and things. And it's like, yeah, if it's scenic, I'll put on a scenic game, you know? I'll play Red Dead Redemption. Exactly, yeah. Which I got with Heavy Rain, of course, but... You know, I'll play Red Dead Redemption, as you said. I'm not going to ride a horse for like 10 minutes through the desert. And it's like, oh, did you know the Navajo have all these things? And don't get me wrong, I'm sure the Navajo have a rich history and everything. And yeah, sure. But why was it in this particular? keep on game again it's like david cage has an addiction to the supernatural where he had it all throughout fahrenheit and then we got to heavy rain and he wanted it in heavy rain and they went no no no let's not add it they'll be too convoluted so he decided to kick the habit you're like okay great david what are you gonna have for the next game it is all gonna be supernatural It's like, he's just relapsed into this. I'm like, oh no. Okay, so it's just ghosts and things. That's fine. What's going to happen next? And it's like, oh yes, we're going to a Navajo reserve and everything. And you're like...
00:50:30
Speaker
I was crying. And there's this big spirit monster that you have to help dispose of. Yeah, and you have to draw a symbol in the sand, and you have to summon the other good ghosts that, for some reason, keep with you.
00:50:43
Speaker
In the game! They're like, ooh, look, I'm a scaredy! It feels so out of place with the rest of the game. And it's so long as well. it's Yeah, it's over an hour. Yeah, it's like, oh, help us with the ranch, and I'm like, do I have to? i don't I really don't want to. I got lost at one point and I was like, I just broke down. I was like, I don't want to play this anymore. And David Cade just sitting there with a gun going, you will finish this. Bob wants to see you finish. Bob's in Z-Con there.
00:51:12
Speaker
Wants to see you a linesy hossie. I was like, I don't want linesy hossie. It's so boring. Again, I'm not one of these people who need subway surfers or family guy cuts playing underneath a game, but it was just, it was so random because I think the level before, it was like you were in Somalia and everything and you had these high octane set pieces and everything and you go from that to you want to learn about the Native Americans. It's like, hmm. No. You want to do farm work? No.
00:51:41
Speaker
You want to dig through the sand? I'm not built for Stardew Valley drills. I And then again at the very end it's like oh look you can go with the hunky boy and I'm like who is this man?
00:51:54
Speaker
You spent what a week most at this reserve? Even if it was for a month right? Even if it was for a month.
Odd Romantic Choices and Mundane Tasks
00:52:00
Speaker
That is not long enough to build up a relationship like that where you decide at the end of the game yeah I'm going to live on the farm. easily like I hated What? I think in my opinion, I would rather choose the farm with the boy I knew for a month than the man who was like, yeah, we're going to go kill a war criminal. But oops, I lied. Actually, he was not a war criminal. And I just needed you to kill this man. But I knew you wouldn't if you didn't know the correct information. And then he's like, hey, ah we so we're still good, right? You still love me? oh
00:52:30
Speaker
look ah Bestie. No, none of that. you jumped out of a helicopter to escape me? You still have feelings, right? Oh, playing hard to get, I see. yeah That's how David Cage interpreted that. Like, oh, she's just playing hard to get. wonder what part of David Cage's life that was inspired by.
00:52:47
Speaker
Sitting in a helicopter like, and this is my latest game, Fahrenheit. Where are you going? Ah, mademoiselle, I will chase after you. Bob, but no. Non-Bob.
00:53:00
Speaker
Yeah, bloody city escaping out the helicopter. Oh, sonic references aside, though. No, that whole section is baffling. know what else is baffling? Not China. like Why do they have of a fake country that clearly is China, but it's like, oh, but it's not China. I can't even remember. yeah i Back to Wikipedia. David Cage was like, yeah, war with the Middle East. Yeah, we can talk about that. Mentioning China. No, no, no, no, no. So I double-checked Wikipedia to see what they say, and someone's just typed in, Jody and a CIA team led by Ryan destroy an underwater facility housing a Chinese-developed condenser before it's used to attack the US. It's like, no, no, no, not China. Yeah, they make up this fake country, don't they? And it's like, oh, it's not, but clearly is. And like, ugh, why? Why? I don't get it. And again, something that we haven't actually brought up of talking about this game is halfway through the game, the Green Goblin gets you out of bed. And I'm laughing imagining myself in Jodie's shoes here. Where it's like, imagine you're sleeping, right? You've been dealing with all these tests and things. And all of sudden, the Green Goblin wakes you up and is like, Jodie, I can't believe you're up. The condenser! The condenser's not working! know, you've got Dr. Octopus like, it'll stabilize! It'll stabilize! Oh no, there's all these. I love doing that voice. There's all these evil ghosts coming out of here. gotta stop them, Jodie. You gotta stop them. And they're like, okay, this is the action part of the game. And I was howling. See, the first time you see the scientist who's alive, it's like, oh, gosh, we gotta get out of here. gets presented like, we gotta get out of here. You little bitch. He just starts to punch it. And it turns into like Resident Evil. But what I love is, see the animation they do with the head jiggles and Everything is like, okay. I immediately killed it for him. I was like, okay, this is the game now. Are we nearly done with the game? Can we be done? No, Jodie. You have to choose. Play my games, Jodie.
00:55:03
Speaker
Play my games. Ride the horses. Ride the horses. just came away from me yeah see that level see no seriousness i actually really like the ideas in that level the idea of oh my god this condenser has broken all these ghosts are coming out jody's the only one that can stop it i love that idea so much and then all of a sudden it was like oh yeah enough about that jody's in the cia no Would you want to cook chicken curry or do you want to get a takeaway? don't care.
00:55:32
Speaker
I did with cake wine. The hardest decision was what to make for Ryan. yeah, and go for a shiver. Yeah. You had to pick out what outfit you were going wear. Hashtag relatable girl things, am I right? You know, mean, you went far off and you said, it's made for all the Tumblr girlies out there. You know, it's like, maybe. Just girly things when your imaginary powerful spirit brother chucks a bottle of wine at the window and you don't clean it up. Yeah, that's gonna stain for that. I couldn't believe that. It's like, what is it about David Cage games and not cleaning up your messes? Yeah, I was like, oh, let me just have some fun. Why not? Throws the wine bottle. Neither of you are gonna go clean that? Okay. I hear that level as well, because again, it's like you're trying to prepare and Aiden is just purposely messing with you. And I'm like, oh, I keep calling them Aiden. I'm doing the same thing. Aiden, okay. Aiden. Aiden. Aiden. It's like, no, it's Aiden.
00:56:29
Speaker
Damn it, David Cage. I mean, if this was Australian, it'd be Oiden. Oiden? Oiden! Oiden, you've got a license for that! Next David Cage game will take place in Australia where we rock kangaroos. How much is Chris Hemsworth?
00:56:45
Speaker
I was like, hey, you want to see me deal with my thoughts on the Australian Aborigines, David? Oh no! Please don't, David. There's plenty of desert in Australia to go to, too. Maybe I'm being insensitive here, but there was a bit in that Navajo level where, see when you had to bury the granny, she made Sanny, I think.
00:57:03
Speaker
like couldn I got to that bit I was like Jesus Christ this is not over yet no you have to climb through a hole go to an ancient burial ground I'm like I'm learning so much yet so little in this game oh my god could you not have done that in a cutscene Why'd you have to branch? I can imagine when they gave you the choice of like, do you want investigate further? No, bye. Get me out of here. Like the detective Pikachu. Get me the hell out of here. Shaking the bars on my torment.
00:57:31
Speaker
Of course, that is the scene where you go for the David Cage TM branded shower. Yeah, that was pretty bad, I'm not gonna lie, because that is the one where David Cage decided to, well, I'm not saying he did it personally, but the developers ended up programming the full naked body of Jodie. Again, you can see nothing.
00:57:51
Speaker
That's the crazy thing, you can't really see anything in and the game itself. So it's like, why they did that in the first place, you know, it's just, Again, David Cage being David Cage is the most. And again, i don't mean that in a flippant way. I mean, seriously, David, get help. But yeah, that whole sequence is just so uncomfortable because you can either choose to sabotage the date as Aiden you can choose to let it happen. I have never been more uncomfortable in my life at a David Cage game. Yeah.
00:58:17
Speaker
Because if you let it happen, as I said, I'm not joking when I say ghost cuck, because it's like, oh, obviously they don't show anything graphic, but they're just kissing and they're on the bed and they're canoodling and whatnot. And I'm just like a judgmental, as I said, judgmental ghost cuck in the corner. Like, and I should go. It's like, why? There's no option to end it early either. I was spared. i mean, you could turn it around, but you can still hear it. So you're like, why would you put this in the game? Or, you know, you can just mess with them. Yeah, that's not great. Also, I forgot to mention that he does turn into Solid Snake at the end of the game.
00:58:52
Speaker
Well, technically, if you let him get his eye gouged out by the not Chinese later on, yeah, gets an eye patch. And at the very end, he's like, kept you waiting, huh? Yeah. It's like, oh my god. But Sonic, going back to the condenser thing, I've got a question for you, Jules. How do you weaponize a ghost that doesn't listen to you?
00:59:10
Speaker
Well, now it's supposed to magically listen to you after all this time. It just took a while. You know, you had to build up that trust, aka you had to decide to stop f***ing around. yeah but it's like, in the game, they're like, oh, they're not Chinese. They're going to weaponize the condenser and they're going to throw ghosts at the US. And I'm like, how? How? We didn't think about that. Well, I didn't think that far ahead.
00:59:35
Speaker
It's a bit like getting the world's most poisonous, I don't know, scorpion, let's just say, right? And then they put it in a glass jar and they go, ah, we did it. We've got the world's most poisonous scorpion. How are you going to get it to work for you?
00:59:47
Speaker
Oh, we're going to drop it in American soil. Okay. And what if it A gets destroyed or B decides to procreate and then come right back at you? Ah, we'll deal with that problem later. Yeah, we'll deal with it as it comes along. You know, it's not like a bomb or something where it's like, okay, right, you're throwing that and it's going to go boom. Okay, I get get that. But you can't throw a ghost, David Cage. You can't yeet Casper into the US and be like, oh, this is our weapon. No weapons of... And again, it's like, oh, it's supposed to be like a small rogue nation that doesn't exist to start It's like, i just that whole
Predictable Twists and Dangerous Endings
01:00:22
Speaker
sequence. Again, it's like, oh, I'm doing one more job and then that's me out of the CIA. And yeah, no, it turns out that the CIA director is suddenly evil. And yeah, no, imagine that. but Whoa! i't
01:00:37
Speaker
What a twist! What a twist! Oh my God! And it's like, yeah, we're going to kill... The only person who can stop the ghost. And then later on, the ghost, I'm afraid, is like, save me from the ghost. only The only person who can save me. I could have never saw this coming.
01:00:51
Speaker
This is the one thing we didn't want to happen. Oh, just the whole game is baffling. It's also baffling that suddenly they've got portable condenser things. Yeah, and then after one hit, they're just useless. Yeah, they look like, you know, in Dune, the shields that they've got. Yes, I haven't seen it, but i've I've seen them, yeah. Yeah, it's like those where you press the button. It's exactly the same. They press the button on their belt. Yeah. covers the whole body. I was like, this is just dude. David Cage, were you watching dude? Great film, but still. Oh, it's just a baffling, baffling, baffling. Did I say baffling? Sorry, I meant baffling game. Baffling two souls, aka us.
01:01:29
Speaker
buff and Baffling us. Beyond baffling, as it were. Honestly, I can't think of much more that this game could disappoint me in. Yeah, is there anything else that you can think of off the top of your head that we haven't covered yet? I will say that... the actors given what they were working with the game was acted fine nothing and was off in heavy rain and fahrenheit some of like the scenes did feel a little awkward but the awkwardness in this game was on purpose and elliott page as an actor usually plays those kind of awkward roles so jody just felt natural for him to play but I gotta say, yeah, I mean, you did spend the money getting these actors and they did act really well in the game. So if there is a positive about it, it would be that. But everything else, yeah, baffling is just the one word to describe the whole experience. Yeah, honestly, I do agree with you. I do think for the most part that the actors in this are, I mean, they do have the wobbles and the kind of, yeah, they're all right. But for the most part, I do think that for what they were given, Exactly, what they were given, it's like they they tried. Yeah, and I mean, for all the interviews, and granted that is part and parcel of being an actor, that even if you're in the most terrible thing, unless it's irredeemable, you know, you'll say, oh yeah, it was a great experience, it's all about empowerment and blah blah blah, and I'm like, is that the same game?
01:02:51
Speaker
i get the wrong copy but yeah no the actors are fine you know i don't think they were terrible or insufferable but i feel like they were hiding a power level you know what it reminds me of actually i feel as if there's a lot of shouty acting going on here do you know what i mean like especially with elliot page and his acting where it's like i'm an angry the teenager ah yeah word for word ah what's the first letter of the alphabet ah what's the answer to this question ah
01:03:21
Speaker
what would you rate this game? F. Ah, too cruel, but you know what, screw it. For the most part, a lot the characters are serviceable, and I think when it gets to the end, that's when it just goes off the rails, you know, after you go to the whole underwater base and you fight the, again, not Chinese, who are going to weaponise Casper. I mean, i haven't heard a more confusing plot point since Jurassic Park did it, where they're like, we're going to weaponise the dinosaurs. Why? How are you going to control a dinosaur? We'll figure that out later. We're going to weaponize the dinosaurs. like Oh, okay. Anything else? Nope. Okay. But yeah, while I'm the foe, by the end of it, he just goes absolutely bat you-know-what insane. Because as I said, there is a hilarious moment where he's got this, it looks like a hologram of his dead family behind him. And it's like, ah, Jodie, come look. It's my wife and my daughter. There's that there with a face of fear and screaming and everything. And then it's like, you don't need a spirit medium to say, yeah, they're not happy. Look how happy my family is. ah
01:04:28
Speaker
Ah. Ah. Played by Jeff Goldblum. Ah. It actually reminds me of, I don't know if you've seen that meme, but it's one of these memes where it's one of those bags that's got the bubble on it at the back so the animals can be in it, but then look out. And there's this cat inside of the bag looking out of the bubble. And the caption is, oh, look, he's so happy. And it's just this cat screaming.
01:04:51
Speaker
it's like That's how I feel about that. What a happy little lad. What a happy street urchin stuck in the great beyond. Because they never really talk about the beyond. It's like either the ghosts are the nicest people you'll ever meet or...
01:05:04
Speaker
ah just elsema there's no one between and of course you know she relays the message that jesus christ they're in pain they want to go and he's like you're lying it's like no no we're not lying mr defoe then he goes crazy and he decides to turn off the big shield that's protecting everybody and what i find funny as well is the guards have zero weapons that can actually hurt the ghost like oh no our bullets are useless it's a ghost it's like What did you expect to happen? been what Were they firing silver bullets? I was like, you were dead, that's for werewolves. What is going on? oh And then, of course, you meet them. And this is, again, putting on my serious face for a moment, this is where you get one of the more disgusting moments of the game beyond the one we talked about earlier. And that, of course, is at the very end where you have to run into the big machine and you're like, oh, no, I got to shut it down. And Green Goblin's like, I can't let you do that, Jodie. Of course, it ends up either you stop him or you talk him down or whatever, but the outcome's always going to be the same, that he shoots himself. And when he shoots himself, he is immediately reunited with his family, he looks round, both Jodie and Nathan seem very happy, and he disappears into the great beyond with his family. Now, I don't know about you, Jules, but I think that's a pretty f***ed up message. yeah No, I was about to say, it is... What was the intended message there, Mr. Cage? Um... That is completely tone deaf. I mean, don't get me wrong, this whole game is tone deaf. Right, but yeah, that there, it's like, I don't know what you're trying to convene here is what you're really trying to convene here. It's just baffling, to be honest. this And again, baffling is the word of the day, but it's like, why would you think this is acceptable to say, hey, if you're struggling with the loss of a loved one, yeah, don't worry, you can reunite with them if you do that. One simple step, yeah. Doctors hate this one simple step. It's like, God's sake, Mr. Cage. Oh, mental health is not question. Yeah, please do not take mental health awareness advice from David Cage. No, never. And again, it goes back to this quote, right? See this quote that he's talking about, he wants to make a mature story and everything. It feels as if it's like a teenager writing a story, doesn't it? Yeah.
01:07:15
Speaker
It doesn't feel as if there's any sense of maturity about it. That feels like a teenager mentality of I don't have other options. I'm going to, you know, and it's like you could have had a more complicated relationship there of like he is struggling mentally, but Jodi helps him realize that one day he will be reunited with his family, but he does doesn't need to do this immediately. There's more things to do for him. Like he has more to live for. But nope, he's just like, oh I'm going to go with the easy. don't want to say easy, but yeah in David Cage's, the way he's portraying it, it sounds like, oh, you want to be reunited with your family? Oh, you're sad. Just do the quote unquote easy method. And it just it gives off such a wrong message for people that are truly struggling with loss. You know, I genuinely think he was watching Kung Fu Panda when he wrote that scene. He saw Master Ugué go, my time has come, you must go on without me. And they thought, that would be great for my game. Oh, but I've wrote everything. Hmm. know. And then the rest is history. Yeah. And then what's even worse is at the very end, it's like, hey, player, do you want to die or do you want to keep on living? Oh, my God. you.
01:08:21
Speaker
Oh, I was just having a mental breakdown at that i point. i'm like, you know what? Screw it. It's like, what are we doing? Because if you decide to go on to the great beyond, and it literally is just very on the nose, isn't it? It's like, oh, here's a white wall. Look, it's all welcoming and warm. And you see that old granny from the novel. And as I said, she was the only one who died in my playthrough.
Awkward Storytelling Moments and Game Endings
01:08:46
Speaker
So she's just sitting there on her own. It was so awkward. I mean, how awkward would it be? You pop your head through and you're like,
01:08:52
Speaker
No. You know that scene in The Simpsons where it's Grandpa Simpson going on a date with Marge's mum and he brings out the wrong old woman and it's like, that's not my mother. I'll be back in a jiffy. And the old woman goes, can I come too? And he overrolls up his window. That's how I felt. It's like, are you coming to the afterlife? Roll up the window. No, no, no, sorry. I'm going to go live with Jay. If you want to live, it's like a big black curtain of fog and it's like, wow, you didn't make that look appealing at all, did you? Right, that was also confusing to me. why is living seeming like the worst option here? And it's like, oh, because I'm living with Ryan Clayton. Yeah, that seems like a bad option.
01:09:33
Speaker
You see, if everybody dies or not, it's like the Brady Bunch when you go through. Oh, look, it's Ma. Two Navajo people. And all the homeless people. And Ryan. Oh, I'm going to live.
01:09:45
Speaker
And yeah, that's where you find out the quote-unquote twist that Aiden, Aiden, gentleman, is your brother that died in the womb, I think. Dun, dun, dun! I was sitting there going, hardly the origami twist does it. Not only does it make it awkward that the first time you see him, he's a naked man towering over. and Yeah, that was so awkward! I get it. Obviously, you know, he wouldn't have clothes in the womb and things, but they're all on a toga, for God's sake. Something. Or, like, the intro, you know, put a sheet over your head and go, ooh, I'm a ghost. Yeah, and then it's very uncomfortable that Aiden has been very possessive of Jodie. At times, you know, he's looking out for her, but then in other times it's like, like yeah, why are you watching your sister?
01:10:34
Speaker
Yeah, makes so much of the game just feel even worse in hindsight. It's like, ugh. No wonder he was trying to ruin every date. Yeah, it's like that Star Wars twist where it's like, oh yeah, Luke kissed his sister. Never gonna love that down, are you, George Lucas? Neither are you, David Cage, for this one. Maybe he was watching Star Wars and he didn't... He's like, hmm, I'm inspired. Wow, this is a great idea. The game comes out, this was a terrible idea. It's like, oh, this is awful. Just try the... I think as well. Yeah, for the ending, as I said, you can either choose to end it with Ryan G, the homeless community that you meet because one of them had a baby, so you kind of look after the child there, or you just go at it alone. The one where you, because I did the Ryan ending so you didn't have to, Jules, I took one for the team.
01:11:20
Speaker
Thank you. The Ryan one is so weird because it's like, you go to his house unannounced and he drops all these nondescript groceries. Duck soup, if you will. But he drops all of that. And then it's like, later on, you're on a yacht and you're riding through the ocean. And it's like, here's the shorts and cheese and the bikini and everything. And you're like, again, David Cage, why?
01:11:42
Speaker
It's like, I just know that the ghosts are going to come back one day. And I'm like, yeah, okay, but why are they on the speedo? What? Come on. Very vital to the game. Vital to the plot. The artistic vision. Yeah, you've got that ending. You've got the one where you go with Jay. You've got the one where you go alone. And then you've got the one where you... Basically, it all ends up in the same place where if you live, then they do like this sequel baiting thing where the world's been overrun with ghosts and things and you've got this suit of armor and everything and the condenser around you. And it depends whether or not you go at it alone or you take the homeless woman's baby with you who's grown up at this point or it's just her and Jodie's her Iden it's weird isn't it yeah I was so confused why we were sequel baiting when David Cage famously does not do sequels he just puts things into his multiverse of madness ironically enough in the homeless chapter you see someone reading a newspaper talking about the origami killer and on the one hand you think oh that's a funny easter egg but on the other you think David oh no David are you creating your own multiverse here again I don't like that. I'm going to be honest. I don't like that one. No. I ranted about it a couple of weeks ago, but I just, I don't like the idea of having Lucas Cain, Ethan Mars, and Jodie Holmes in the same universe. It makes no sense.
01:13:03
Speaker
Because it's like, what was Lucas Cain doing? the photo when that's And we know he exists because Ethan Mars has got his apartment. So yeah. Maybe he's on his own ranch in the desert. well With the Navajos. Yeah.
01:13:15
Speaker
like Come on, Carla. Found prime real estate. Come on, Carla. Ride the horsey. No. Get away. Oh, here's Tyler or Taylor. I don't know. Yeah, when are we visiting Florida to visit Tyler? Florida who?
01:13:29
Speaker
I think we've covered the baffling experience. yeah Has anyone followed along to how perfect the storyline is? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. There is action, there is romance, there are convoluted plots and there's nothing but trauma in this game. This is is the one David Cage game that I would recommend you just watch instead of play. If you want to fall asleep, if you're if you have insomnia, this would be the perfect game for you. What, ASMR? Jodie Holmes going, ah! You know there's like 10 hours of white noise, but randomly Jodie will go, ah! I've given someone an idea there. Right now they're creating the video like, that's a great idea, oh my god. It's a convoluted mess, and if you're morbidly curious about this one, yeah, go for it.
01:14:11
Speaker
We can't stop you. Bob will be outside your window wanting to watch you play. Playing Careless Whisper or something.
Comparison to Other David Cage Games
01:14:18
Speaker
the boombox above his head that nightmare fuel aside yeah i just don't get this one i have to say because as we spoke about last week and the week before heavy rain for me personally is so nostalgic and it's got its flaws and everything that is so janky but it's just so endearing at the same time and has that sense of relatability that at least you can pardon a lot of the faults not all of them but i few and with Fahrenheit as well you have that sense of that although it didn't hold up in a lot of regards that was quite revolutionary for the time of the game and landscape that was all very much oh action games and such and I mean you had your RPGs and whatnot but there was nothing really like Fahrenheit at the time I think it's something you brought up in the Fahrenheit episode but at this point David Cage had two games under his belt technically three if you include Omicron but he knew better and yet he decided this was the direction that he was going for mean spoilers but this is at the bottom of my tier list for this month same i have to say the same it was going back and forth between indigo prophecy and this one for me but ultimately i feel like i still had a better time with indigo prophecy than this one i could not see myself ever replaying this game I forgot to mention, but this is probably the most linear David Cage game because you're going to keep going through the same story beats no matter what happens. Unlike with Heavy Rain, where if characters do die, the story beats change a little bit. But this one is just super linear and you don't really get anything by replaying it. As we said before, at least you could excuse that with Fahrenheit because the technology wasn't really there. Right. considering what they did with Heavy Rain and the branching narratives, I'm not going to pretend that these are easy games to program in comparison to others, but Jesus Christ, you know, you're completely right. It's like, it doesn't matter if you fail missions or you fail this and that, the outcome's still going to be the same. And for someone who hates game overs and things, I feel as if he's looked back to the other side, where it's like you physically can't fail this game. You can't die in it, you have to keep going and everything, and it's just... tiring that's the thing it's just it's tiring to play this game and have to deal with david cages utter nonsense at this and it does it's the only game that i think evoked a visceral reaction from me and i don't mean a positive reaction i mean a reaction where i was like this game it's terrible and if you enjoy it all power to you yeah i'm not going to criticize you for it if you like it absolutely fine if you're one of the 70 authors on what pad on this game That is also fine. But I just, I think between the scandals that this game brought out, again with the nude model, with the mishandling of trauma and such, he's just so out of touch with this game, I feel.
Cultural Representation and Upcoming Content
01:17:05
Speaker
Yeah, you can leave this one right where it is. I don't think anyone is really trying to defend this game. Because what's weird as well is, think Elliot Page got the rights to make a TV series of this. I heard about that. But it's never come to fruition, and I can... kind of see why in some regards, but I just, I don't get where you would go with it. It would make a better TV series, I will say that, but do you want to do that? Yeah, that's the question is like, yeah, it would be a better series than a video game for sure, but it's like, what do you gain from it being a TV series necessarily? What storytelling elements is this going to add to in a sense, improve it, because how far worse can we get? What retelling in a different medium actually going to gain for anyone? And I don't see any way that it would. And again, as I said, if you're morbidly curious about this game, definitely check a playthrough something. Because at least if you get bored in the Navajo section, you can skip through it.
01:18:00
Speaker
You can not skip through Let me go back to my streams and put timestamps on when to skip that part in particular. I mean, go watch Joseph's, like, vods and things. But as I said, it's not a great experience, to be quite frank with. Have we stressed that enough? Oh, no, I'm saying that again. It's not a good experience. And again, between the mishandling of stuff and the Navajo section, because again, i don't think he intentionally was trying to be racist with us But it does seem weird that he does introduce a Navajo family that are into their spirituality and they're dealing with this problem and all of a sudden they've got a white savior that comes in and is like, don't worry guys, I'm here to fix your problems. Yeah, very weird connotation we're trying to throw onto that. But the thing is, I mean, maybe he was malicious with it, but I don't think he was. I think he was just stupid. To be like, oh yeah, look at how cute Judy is. It's so hard to tell with David Cade what is just genuine stupidity. Would you like to see my binder of photos of Elliot Page? is like no No. this is why bob left bad david go back to developing detroit become human which of course is a perfect segue to say that that is indeed the game we will be talking about next week so yeah jules i'm gonna end the nightmare thank you so much for enduring this game again playing through and yeah coming on to talk about it with me tonight course i'm looking forward to talking about non-humans what you mean david cage come on then That's cruel, Jules. Come on. No, we haven't talked about Bob enough.
01:19:33
Speaker
Oh, we haven't. No, that'll be next week's episode. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, before we wrap up, where can these amazing Pandalorians listening at home find your content? So all of my social media is Bad Games Jules. Twitter, Twitch, YouTube, Instagram, all of it under the same handle, Bad Games Jules. And if you want to listen to more episodes from ourselves, as well as more Quantic Dream Month episodes, then indeed you can check us out at our website, chatsanami.com, as well as all good podcast apps. I also want to thank our amazing Pandalorian patrons, Robotic Battle Toaster, Ghosty, and Cryptic 1991. Thank you so much for supporting the show. And if you would like access to exclusive content, as well as... I can't even think of a funny segue for this. The games just depressed me. Yeah, check out at patreon.com forward slash Shatsunami. There's some great content there. I wouldn't even joke and say, oh yeah, we've got some Beyond Two Souls content there. No, we've got none of it. None. Zero. Nada. Nilpoir. It's a beyond two souls safe zone as well. But yeah, of course, this podcast is a proud member of the Podpack Collective. For more information, check us out our Twitter slash X handle at Podpack Collect. But until next time, when we talk about David Cage, I mean, Detroit become human, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. Oh, and don't release any ghosts because, I mean, that's not idealism. No.