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S3E9 - Modes of Mobility w/ Melissa Bruntlett
33 Plays22 days ago
Do you take cars for granted?
What if you learned they were responsible for an increased sense of isolation?
A lack of trust in the community?
A source of stress throughout your day?
Even where you spend time in your home?
Studies show all this and more, yet we often fail to see cars as anything but urban solutions. Today we're speaking to Melissa Bruntlett, Co-Founder of Modacity Creative.
She’s a well known cycling advocate, working worldwide to bring cycling to a city near you. She’s written a wealth of knowledge into three books, Building the Cycling City, Curbing Traffic, and Women Changing Cities. She most recently appeared in The New York Times' Women in Leadership Special Report.
Find out how simple it can be to improve a city, one bicycle at a time. To make AI more useful, maybe it should tell us who to call? Right now it sends you to a website or Reddit. We need to make people a priority, and that means people who know.
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Transcript
Encouraging Bicycle Use
00:00:00
Speaker
There is potential to develop a network to encourage people to shift at least one of their trips to a bicycle.
00:00:15
Speaker
Welcome back to Infrastructure Connections, the podcast where we explore what makes sustainable infrastructure work, brought to you by the Infrastructure Sustainability Council. I'm your host, Seth Scott, and today we're speaking with Melissa Bruntlett.
00:00:29
Speaker
Melissa is the co-founder of Modacity Creative. She's a well-known cycling advocate working worldwide to bring cycling to a city near you.
Melissa's Cycling Journey
00:00:37
Speaker
She's also an author who's written a wealth of knowledge into three books, Building the Cycling City, Curbing Traffic, and Women Changing Cities.
00:00:45
Speaker
She most recently appeared in the New York Times Women in Leadership special report. Hi, Melissa. Welcome to the show. hi Glad to be here. Thanks for coming on.
00:00:57
Speaker
So you earned your degree in fashion and apparel design, and then you worked in graphic design, and then you shifted into this new passion for alternative modes of urban transport. Tell us about that journey a little bit.
00:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started out with very creative ideas in mind and did work in the fashion industry for almost 10 years. But there was an overlap there after moving to Vancouver in 2007, where The way I moved around the city began to change. And then for myself, my husband, Chris, living with two small children, finding ourselves working within cycling distance from our home and daycare not too far away. And so, yeah, we started making our daily trips by bike using a bike trailer for the kids that were one and three at the time.
00:01:42
Speaker
And really seeing how our understanding of the city began to change, how the kids' relationship with the city was changing, and even our relationship with each other. It was a much more social way to move around. We could talk a little more easily with the children. um Everyone was just a little bit more at ease. And I think what happened was over the course of, I'm going to say probably about two years from 2010 to 2012,
00:02:10
Speaker
as our social circle with parents started increasing, we were fielding more and more questions about how on earth we were moving around the city with two kids on a bike and how do we make that work? And it was sort of this aha moment for both of us to be like, maybe there's stories that we can share for myself as a mom moving around with two kids. you know how do How do I make that possible? um And what does that mean for us? But also why is it important for the city to be making these investments?
Cycling Culture: Canada vs. Netherlands
00:02:40
Speaker
So you went all in with this passion. You moved from Canada over to the Mecca of cycling, the Netherlands. What was the difference between the two cultures when you when you moved there and you saw the cycling there?
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, the big thing is that it's just so normal ah where you see children as young as three, four cycling on their little bikes next to their mom and dad on the bike paths, where you see older adults, you know, people, our parents' whose parents age are older. cycling around for social activities, going into the polders for, know, weekend cycle ride. um But for me, ah especially even um as a woman on a bike who was defiant enough to to cycle in skirts and heels um in Vancouver, seeing here that it's just so completely normal. And it's not because the Dutch are somehow superior when it comes to their cycling culture. It's just these decades of, investing in cycling has made it so much more comfortable and easy for people to move around for all their trips. So, you know, not just going to work, but also taking kids to school, to doing groceries, to going to yoga class, which is part of my my week, twice a week at least, you know, just these very, very normal ways of moving around in a mode that isn't a car suddenly makes, you know,
00:04:02
Speaker
what you wear and the types of bikes that you ride and the way in which you ride a lot more easy and comfortable and yeah, just nothing spectacular.
Dutch Inspiration: Building the Cycling City
00:04:13
Speaker
um But to us, it's still spectacular that it that it exists in this way and it's what we're trying to you know build elsewhere. It's great to see that. And you've now become a major advocate for cycling. And you actually wrote a book about it called Building the Cycling City, the Dutch Blueprint for Urban Vitality. And I have to admit, I have read your book. It was fantastic.
00:04:34
Speaker
But unfortunately, I had to drive halfway across town to find it at the library because my bicycle has had the same flat tire it's had for eight years. So... Don't gotta get out as much here.
00:04:46
Speaker
But um I especially liked how you started your book with the Netherlands in 1973, introducing a car-free Sunday. And um it reminded me, i lived in Minnesota for a year and in the middle of winter, no one drove. And I used to walk down the four lane highway in the middle of the evening. And I just felt like the emperor of Rome. I owned it all.
00:05:07
Speaker
So what made you decide to write this book? Yeah, for us, it was um we traveled to the Netherlands in 2016 with our kids for five weeks, you know touring around. We had been advocating for cycling by then for the better part of six years, had having started Modacity in 2014 as this content creation firm to share stories, photos, videos, videos. And so that became the basis of the pitch to Island Press for building the cycling city ah to really dig deeper into these historical and cultural moments in Dutch society that have led to them being the cycling nation that they are.
00:05:48
Speaker
Because what we find and part of the reason for the book is to start dispelling these myths that, oh, it's the Netherlands, we can't do that here. And we still hear it. You know, it's been eight years since we wrote that book. We still hear that every time we're talking about the Netherlands or at a workshop, you know, talking about Dutch principles. Well, that's all well and good, Melissa, but, you know, it's flat there or, um you know, they've been cycling. The Dutch are born on bicycles. You know, we can't do that here in XYZ, North American or otherwise city. And our whole purpose with the book was really to say
Adapting Cities for Cycling
00:06:24
Speaker
that we can. It doesn't have to be copy paste, but there's so much that we can learn from what's happened here that we can apply in other places.
00:06:32
Speaker
But your book pointed out that the Netherlands wasn't always and a cycling country. So how did that start, starting with that 1973 wake-up call with the car-free Sundays and and also, I guess, right after the war as well?
00:06:44
Speaker
Yeah. So, I mean, just like everywhere else in the world, starting in the nineteen late 1940s, early 1950s, Dutch City started to retrofit very much for the car. The car was seen as this tool of the future, just like it was in US cities, Canadian cities, cities around the world. And you see this mass adoption of this new tool for moving around. You see plans to demolish parts of Amsterdam to create a highway that connects the the main part of the city with the north. ah You hear about Utrecht, for example, the um building of a motorway by filling in one of the historic canals and not too far from the central station. And all of this is this movement towards modernity to create this new auto or sorry, car focused utopia, so to speak. And then 1973, you have these car free Sundays that happen as a result of the OPEC oil crisis, where the national government in the effort to conserve
00:07:48
Speaker
the resources that they have said, okay, no one is driving on Sundays, we're implementing car-free. And suddenly you have people coming out onto the streets and seeing them in a whole different way. You know, for the last, let's say, 15, 20 years, they've seen the number of cars on their streets start to increase, the congestion increase, the hostility in that space increase.
00:08:09
Speaker
And then on these Sundays, suddenly these streets are massive public spaces where people can come out They can cycle and roller skate along freeways. They can have picnics in the middle of the street. And it really opens Dutch people's eyes to what they were starting to lose with the mass adoption of cars. And at the same time, you have ah this road safety crisis that is reaching its peak around 1972, 73. where you have thousands of people dying on the streets in road crashes, particularly young children that sparks a movement called Stop the Kinder Mord, or in English, Stop Child Murder, where parents, healthcare care workers, teachers are all coming together to protest to the national government to demand that streets become safer again for kids. And so these two inflection points are sort of this moment where the Dutch realized
00:09:04
Speaker
We need to be doing something different. There's a couple of pivotal leaders, or not a couple, a few pivotal leaders that decide to be brave and try something different. And that's when you see in Groningen the adoption of the first traffic circulation plan to remove the free flow of cars in city centers. You see here in Delft, the first Vonaire for Living Street, where cars are removed from the equation to create essentially a living room in people's front gardens.
00:09:32
Speaker
And then you also have also here in Delft, the adoption of the first bicycle network, this idea that if we want to get people on bikes, we need to create a network that connects them to all the places they need to go intuitively and in a way that ensures they don't necessarily have to think about where they're going all the time. And this is when you start to see the shift from what would be a city ah not unlike Brussels, Paris, Rome to something that now people see in Amsterdam, in The Hague, in Rotterdam and everywhere in the Netherlands of these wonderful cycling cities where you know people of all ages, abilities, backgrounds are on a bike for all of their trips because it just makes the most sense.
00:10:15
Speaker
As you pointed out, one of the things we often hear from urban planners and civil engineers is that the city's built already and it's built for cars. So it's quite spread out. There are huge parking lots in front of malls. Everything's a long distance away from itself. And that grid is already locked in.
00:10:30
Speaker
How do you then adapt that to a bicycling lifestyle? I understand how it would work in ah in a city, especially in a denser city or the the central city, but how does it work in the urban sprawl areas?
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, the the biggest thing we often point out to people in the place that I know most of my more technical colleagues will start is to ask, um what are what is the length of trip that most of these people are taking on a daily basis? ah The challenge in a lot of cities outside the Netherlands is, and even here sometimes, is everyone is so focused on the commute to work, ah the distance and number of kilometers, miles, roadways you need to use to get from home to the office and back again. And we want to make that trip as efficient as possible.
00:11:17
Speaker
It's also the longest trip. most of us take in our day. Very few of us live within a five minute walk of of our office or, you know, 30 steps downstairs in my case. Unless we're lucky enough to work from home. yeah Exactly. um But what we when we focus so much on the commute, we actually forget all the other trips that we take that are usually under five kilometers in distance. And so starting from that point with cities of saying, okay, well, what is the distance from these a journey
00:11:48
Speaker
start points to a destination that is a school or a community center or the local grocery store. and mapping those out and starting to realize they're all within this five kilometer radius, which is very easily cyclable within 10, 15 minutes, depending on your speed. And even that one kilometer radius for for walking.
00:12:07
Speaker
And once you actually start looking at the grid in a much smaller way, then you can see how perhaps in an urban sprawl suburb, there is potential to develop a network on the street or through trails,
00:12:22
Speaker
and otherwise to encourage people to shift at least one of their trips to a bicycle. And then from there, you can start to say, okay, we have this grid, let's say in this neighborhood, how do we now connect another neighborhood, another node, and then find those connection points. And eventually you have an entire network for a city. But what's really important is it's not just about building separated bike lanes, which is important ah depending on the speed and volume of cars on these streets. But you can use neighborhood streets, which is very much the approach in a lot of North American cities. It's the approach in Vancouver of how can we calm the neighborhood streets where our speeds are 30 kilometers an hour or less in a way that it makes it more comfortable for cycling, that it becomes an option for people. um Instead of having to have that fight of building that bike lane on a major arterial, maybe there's opportunities to build out our neighborhood cycling network as well.
00:13:19
Speaker
I still argue that we need that separated infrastructure on arterials because those are the destinations that people want to get to. And we need to ensure that the the cycling network connects them to those important destinations as well. um But it's not about building bike lanes everywhere. It's about this sort of complimentary system of bike lanes where they need to be, where, i like I said, the volume and speed of cars is too high to have that mixing between bicycles and automobiles because the the results of a crash will be catastrophic with a network of you know traffic calm streets that allow people to cycle within their neighborhood and in their community you know in a shared environment, but where everyone's moving around much at a much more human pace.
Impact of Cycling on Community
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I don't ride a bicycle is because I'm i'm afraid in my car of hitting other cars. I'd even more afraid without a big steel box around me. Exactly. Creating an environment that allows that safety while you're riding, it's it's definitely a plus.
00:14:21
Speaker
Mm hmm. We really want to and we need to understand that, you know, how we feel in traffic or how we feel in our cities is going to influence the behavior in which we move in those spaces. So, you know, if we want to encourage people to walk and cycle, we need to create environments where they feel comfortable doing that.
00:14:42
Speaker
Yeah, in one of your books, you'd pointed out that streets with less traffic or slower traffic tended to have more people crossing the street to go back and forth between businesses or friends, and that that was actually measurable that the more car traffic there was, the less safe people felt and the more uncomfortable people felt in that area.
00:15:00
Speaker
Yeah, in Curbing Traffic, which is our second book, um we look at the study from Bruce and Donald Appleyard, one that was done in the 70s and then ah updated a little bit more recently to understand um people's relationship to a street depending on the volume of cars. And what they found, even in the 70s, was on streets with a light traffic volume, people were more willing to be outside to take care of the street because that stress and hostility of cars moving through very quickly or at high volumes um was lower. There was less noise and they felt more willing to connect with their community. And so the heat map that we show in the book shows these like, yeah, like you say, these constant crossing points or these social gathering points on the street that are very high volume.
00:15:50
Speaker
And what we know from that study is as the volume of traffic increases, The frequency of those crossings begin to stop, the care for the front streets, the stoop begins to lower and people are less likely to care for front gardens or clean up garbage that might be there.
00:16:09
Speaker
These kinds of things. But interestingly, they also begin to, in their own homes, move their activities to the backs of their homes. And if we think about this in sort of this um more urban sprawl or city living, people value their back gardens because it is these quiet they are these quiet oases where they can be away from traffic, away from you know noisy street life and have their own space. But really, you know when you ask people what they value, they value this idea of community connection, this this idea of knowing who your neighbors are. and We can only do that if we create street environments where the traffic is much lower so that you can hear your neighbors if you're having a conversation, but you also begin to trust your neighbors more because you are in the common space together much more.
00:16:58
Speaker
It's interesting that people respond so much to the street even within their houses. And in fact, you mentioned that well-designed cities incorporate walking, cycling, and staying. What's the staying part of that?
00:17:10
Speaker
Yeah, the staying is, I think it's an important ingredient. It's something that a lot of us in this space are now really starting to focus on is how do we create public spaces that are enjoyable to stop in, not just move through. And if we think about this in the context of people taking, you know, holidays to Italy and spending time in the piazzas and enjoying a coffee, you know, there are these wonderful sort of squares that people want to spend time in. And that's the staying part is creating space spaces where it's it says a place that you're happy to stop, to have a conversation, to maybe sit down at a table and enjoy a conversation or a coffee with a friend or a beer, if you're going to do that. um And it's this idea that we're lowering the stress to make that space much more enjoyable. And these can be, you know, they can be very simple activations or they can be much more, you know, permanent. But we see great examples around the world of this happening. Of course, in the Netherlands, we have the big market squares that in the last, well, in our case, in Delft, in the last 20 years have shifted from being parking lots to now being big open squares where they have our weekly markets, where we have festivals and all these kinds of things where traffic is not moving through. in terms of car traffic, but people traffic are moving through and staying.
00:18:33
Speaker
um But then also in places like Barcelona with the super blocks, these, you know, former intersections and neighborhoods being transformed into public squares where people are coming and enjoying time together and and staying simply because the environment is much more welcoming and inviting to do so.
00:18:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's creating a a healthy environment for people, which I was interested in the research that you're doing on the health of people. um You'd mentioned, for example, that we might have that increasing problem of isolation and loneliness and dependency, especially with the elderly and the children, because they're dependent on cars to get them to other people.
00:19:14
Speaker
I was fascinated to learn that our current modes of transport can impact that. So tell us about how modes of transport reduce isolation and dependency. Yeah, well, when we're when we're able to cycle and walk um and we create the spaces that are safe to do so or safe and comfortable to do so for more than just um the fit and the brave, so to speak, or in some some places they might refer to them as mammals, middle-aged men in Lycra. But when we create an environment where
00:19:46
Speaker
it becomes more comfortable for children to cycle or for older adults to cycle. um You're basically opening up the environment for more independent travel. And what that means when we're looking at children is that as we're seeing a generation become more and more dependent on mom and dad to move them around in a car, ah they don't have ah an understanding of their community. They don't know the street network. They can't find their way in the same way that Those of us who would have grown up walking and cycling to school or to friends' houses would.
00:20:18
Speaker
And that dependence closes the world off to them, and they start to feel like the only way they can leave their home zone is with mom and dad taking them around. If we flip that and say, okay, we're going to create traffic-com streets in your neighborhood to get you to school, playgrounds, sports clubs, et cetera,
00:20:37
Speaker
ah comfortably on foot or on bike, um or, you know, create a street grid or a city grid that allows them to travel a little bit further, parents suddenly become more comfortable because they know their children will be a little bit safer when they move around. Of course, there's some travel smarts that are required, but you also see kids thriving in this. And that freedom is important for children. i think it's something that Those of us, I'm going to age myself, but those of us that you know grew up in the 70s, 80s, and 90s got to enjoy at a much different scale than kids nowadays do.
00:21:13
Speaker
ah They learn their street grid better. They have this connection to their community. They'll see that old neighbor and say hi to them as they pass by. um And there's ah a visual connection that happens that they wouldn't have if they were in the backseat of a car. um But also they're learning about risk and they're learning where are my limits if I make a mistake. you know, how do I learn from that and adjust so that as they grow up, they those lessons help inform their view of the world. But also with those moments, parents are less worried that they're going to not come home if they happen to fall off their bike on their ride to and from school, which is a very normal occurrence for most kids.
00:21:54
Speaker
And the same sort of goes for older adults is that, you know, with these safe infrastructures, with these slower streets, for a generation that is aging out of driving safely, we're saying to them, you have the right and the access to still be a part of society. For people where their mobility is getting a little more challenged, we've created these comfortable environments where you can do so, where there's seating if you happen to be walking.
Noise, Health, and Cycling Benefits
00:22:17
Speaker
the cycle paths are nice and wide and comfortable for you to continue moving in a way that um makes sense for you and allows for people to still maintain that connection um without worrying about being trapped in their homes or reliant on older adult children to move around.
00:22:37
Speaker
You'd also, with the health aspect, mention noise. And it's something that i only noticed during COVID. I like actually live in an area that has three major highways on three different sides of me.
00:22:49
Speaker
And um there's a constant background hum. I hear it most especially at night, which is odd because I guess it's drowned out by other things during the day. But during COVID, it almost disappeared completely. And it was so incredibly quiet that it really made me recognize what that background hum sounds like and how loud it normally is. How does that affect people in general and their anxiety and stress levels? Yeah, I mean, noise is something that a lot of um cities around the world are starting to come to grips with. And the World Health Organization has now set what they believe is a suitable decibel level for people to ah not experience extreme negative health impacts. But at the very basic, if you've got this constant background noise, it sets your brain into this constant fight or flight mode.
00:23:35
Speaker
um which, I mean, of course, that puts you in this high alert stage, which sometimes we need in our daily lives to know that we're maybe not in ah the safest environment, that we need to be more aware. But if that's constant, then our stress levels are constantly higher. It has an impact on our cardiovascular system, our mental health, of course, because we're constantly like something might go wrong. But And over time, prolonged exposure does mean that those health impacts become much more severe.
Transition to Sustainable Transport
00:24:06
Speaker
And that's, of course, when you're moving around in the day, but at night, it also disrupts sleep patterns, which has an effect also on our physical health, not just our ability to rest. And so
00:24:17
Speaker
what most people experience during COVID is this like, oh, I can hear the sounds of life in the city again. and And there's a correlation there because we had more people working from home, less people driving on all of our highways or streets. And there was ah a recognition that a lot of that noise that we hear in our cities is actually due to the cars moving through, not just the engines, but also the rumbling and the friction of tires on streets, moving around. um You hear it actually quite um quite starkly here when you have even an electric car moving along a cobbled street. It's very loud when you hear that that rumbling noise because the cars are quite heavy. And so, ah you know as people were more walking and cycling through their communities, suddenly things were quiet and you know we need that. We need those restorative moments for for our wellbeing.
00:25:12
Speaker
It's interesting with electric cars because now we're seeing that people have range anxiety where they won't buy an electric car unless they think they can go four hours in that vehicle. yeah Like you said, most people only travel five kilometers on average for most of their trips.
00:25:26
Speaker
Who's managing then this transition and how is it progressing and how are they doing it? I think the places around the world and from the advocacy perspective that are approaching it from an understanding that not everyone can cycle. And that is the point is that we need to be capturing that 70 to 80% of people in most cities that are interested in cycling, but are too afraid to give it a try or don't feel like the network connects them to where they want to go. It's not going to solve every trip. So they're not quite willing to give it a shot. The cities that recognize that the advocacy that recognizes that are the ones that are approaching it in ah in a much more holistic way that will allow a more nuanced approach. It's not going to happen overnight. ah This is a 50-year journey here in the Netherlands. Our hope in our work is that with all of these lessons that ah can come from places like the Netherlands, all the mistakes that they made back in the 70s and 80s can be learned from to expedite the process elsewhere.
Empathetic Mobility and Public Space
00:26:30
Speaker
um But yeah, it's really about you know thinking beyond who we might assume are the people that cycle to all the other people that might choose to get on a bike if we just understood how they feel in traffic and how we can make them feel much more comfortable.
00:26:48
Speaker
That was one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, how long do you think this is going to take to really improve, especially downtowns of major cities in this way? I know that's a tough question. And like you said, it's been a 50 year journey for the Netherlands. Hopefully with all the examples that have been set, it can be a much shorter time period. But um with the cities that you've worked with, what's the time frame that you see that really turns this around?
00:27:14
Speaker
Yeah, that is a difficult question because it is it's different for every city. um But i think it it starts with leadership, either from the advocacy side, well, a combination of leadership from the advocacy side and from ah the civic ah civic society as well is yeah, a bravery to do something that seems unpopular, but is actually quite popular for most people. And once you have that, then you can start to move a little bit faster. And so, you know, I got started in this living in Vancouver in Canada that in 2003, let's say before I moved there had, you know, virtually they had a neighborhood bikeway network, but virtually no network. And in the span from 2007 to when we moved in 2019, a lot more places in the city suddenly became accessible by bike, including the downtown, including other neighborhoods and the waterfront.
00:28:11
Speaker
But this all comes from this connection between understanding who is using the system, who we want to use the system, and then designing for it and recognizing as with Enhidalgo, as in Montreal with with Valerie Plant, as in Barcelona, as in New York, as in Vancouver, it might seem unpopular because the loudest voices are telling you they don't want this, but the people that do want it, don't they're not coming out to all the public meetings. They're not making it known that this is what they want. But once it's there, they begin to start using it.
00:28:43
Speaker
It seems like that ties into what you called empathetic mobility. And I really liked what the phrase that you used to describe it was that it was a translation from me to we. How does that work and how does that help that society adopt this?
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah, like, again, it comes to this, you know, what I was just talking about in terms of this thinking of thinking about what seems to be popular or unpopular. And most of the time when we are talking about creating places for walking, cycling and staying, we're talking about changing what we understand of a public space of a street.
00:29:17
Speaker
And um it's really about shifting the idea of what the street is used for. It's not just meant to be one person in a car by themselves going from home to work. These are meant to be our public spaces where we come together. And that's, that is it. That is civic leaders, um advocacy, understanding that all of these changes are about ah creating spaces that invite people to be a part of the communities in which they live, in which they travel through and visit. It's about understanding that my
00:29:54
Speaker
ah my needs, the way I move through a city are going to be very different from yours, different from other people in the
Conclusion and Engagement Invitation
00:30:01
Speaker
community. And with empathetic mobility, it's it's understanding all that and bringing all those perspectives to the table so that we can create a solution or unleash the potential of a street that better meets everyone's needs, that creates spaces for play for children, places for rest for older adults, smooth areas to move through for our disabled communities, safer environments where, socially safe environments where women feel comfortable to travel at different times of day. And really, um yeah, shifting our thinking to much more community-based a collective approach as opposed to an individualistic.
00:30:41
Speaker
think that's fantastic. You know, i i think we could talk about this for three more hours. I noticed I've only gone through about half of my questions, unfortunately. Half of my questions is not enough, but I guess the good news is that you have three books that people can read to get on top of all of this. um So I'll definitely put the links in the comments below. So I really enjoyed having you on the show. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for this great information.
00:31:05
Speaker
Thanks, Seth. And yeah, if you ever want to answer the rest of those questions, just let me know. Will do. Thank you very much.
00:31:14
Speaker
And thank you for listening to another episode of Infrastructure Connections. Please take a moment to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. And we want to know what you think. Leave a message in the comments below or drop us a line at the Infrastructure Sustainability Council.
00:31:28
Speaker
Stay tuned for the next episode of Infrastructure Connections.