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S3E6 - Transport Resilience w/ Cathy Bebelman
27 Plays5 days ago
Host Seth Scott interviews Cathy Bebelman.
Cathy is the Chief Scientist: Head of Science and Sustainability with Auckland Transport in New Zealand. Cathy has an extensive background in the environmental impacts of infrastructure and transport networks, working as a researcher and consultant in the public sector for over 25 years.
She advocates for a holistic approach to the management of climate and the environment. Auckland Transport made changes to their approach to transport after the 2023 Auckland Anniversary and Cyclone Gabrielle storms.
This month they published their Climate Adaptation Framework and Action Plan 2025 - https://at.govt.nz/media/iqebfs0r/at-climate-adaption-framework-and-action-plan.pdf
The storms caused 2,000 landslides across the region at a cost to repair of $360 million. Cathy discusses how they worked to resolve this as well as how their budget might need to change to incorporate climate related storm damage to come. That hasn't slowed down AT's electrification efforts.
Aucklanders now enjoy a fully electric train system, the largest electrified bus fleet in the South Pacific, and new electric ferries on the water.
And there's a lot more to look forward to.
👉 We'd love to hear your feedback, share your questions or comments below.
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Transcript
Alternative Transport & Sustainable Infrastructure
00:00:00
Speaker
walking around your neighbourhood, cycling to school, cycling to work where it where it remains viable, um looking at but getting on the train, getting on um the buses, using the ferries, and car sharing where you need to, means that the road network is available for those who really do need to use it.
00:00:26
Speaker
Welcome back to Infrastructure Connections, the podcast where we explore what makes sustainable infrastructure work, brought to you by the Infrastructure Sustainability Council. I'm your host, Seth Scott, and today we'll be speaking with Dr. Kathy Bebelman.
00:00:40
Speaker
Kathy is the Chief Scientist, Head of Science and Sustainability with Auckland Transport in New Zealand. Kathy has an extensive background in the environmental impacts of infrastructure and transport networks, working as a researcher and consultant in the public sector for over 25 years.
00:00:55
Speaker
She advocates for a holistic approach to the management of climate and the environment. Hi, Cathy. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Seth. It's really cool to be joining you.
00:01:06
Speaker
Great to have you on.
Impact of Cyclone Gabriel on Auckland
00:01:08
Speaker
So let's set the scene because I know a lot of what we're going to talk about today has um a starting point of Cyclone Gabriel. A national state of emergency has been declared as Cyclone Gabriel causes destruction right across the North Island. Meteorologists say a month's worth of rain fell on New Zealand's largest city in the last 24 hours alone. The Prime Minister here has called um this weather event the most significant one we faced this century. Cyclone Gabriel remains as an intense, powerful and very broad weather system So that was 2023 when Auckland got hit by this major storm and caused a lot of disruption to Auckland Transport and other systems. So tell us about that.
00:01:47
Speaker
What did it do to Auckland Transport's networks and infrastructure? Sure. There were two storm events um pretty close together. So we first we had the Auckland anniversary storm event on the last weekend of January, followed a fortnight later by Cyclone Gabriel. So the impact of Cyclone Gabriel was probably a lot worse because of the storm events we'd had a fortnight earlier. So the combination of those two events led to an excess of 2,000 landslides across our road network, um substantial flooding across the region, but really it was focused um particularly in the north and west of Auckland. And has has that changed the way that Auckland Transport looks at the work that they're doing around future storms?
Cost-Effectiveness of Prevention vs. Rebuilding
00:02:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's provided us with an awful lot of data. Typically, our response has been to to any disruption like this on the network is um everyone wants us to build back better and open the road quickly again, of course. And so our road corridor maintenance teams get out there and um clear the slip. For example, um clear any drains that have been blocked by debris that have shifted in the rainfall, that kind of thing, so that the road and operations can resume as fast as possible.
00:03:07
Speaker
But what we've learned from that is in our haste to build back and recreate those networks and access ways for people, and sometimes we are are ah building back in areas that are going to remain susceptible to risk in the future, particularly from substantial storm events.
00:03:25
Speaker
And we're starting to question the cost of that. And we've done a lot of work now to understand um what that cost looks like in terms of prevention versus building back. And we can talk a little bit about that.
00:03:38
Speaker
But it's starting to um help us understand that sometimes we might want to build back differently in those areas or provide alternative access routes rather than just constantly relying on one route.
Funding Challenges & Need for Resilience Fund
00:03:53
Speaker
But on the other hand, you have mentioned that it's better to spend that a little bit extra upfront now rather than have to rebuild the infrastructure when it's completely wiped out later. how did understand you've done some studies on that. How does that work out percentage-wise?
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, we've used um the data that we got from that Cyclone Gabriel Auckland anniversary events, and we've done some really detailed case study assessments now on a dozen or so locations where we had really serious underslaps So an underslip is where the road falls down the hill. An overslip is where the road above falls onto the road. That's easily cleared with diggers, for example. But an underslip is where the land falls away. And building back in those areas is really expensive because the land no longer exists.
00:04:40
Speaker
And so we're having to either buy new land um or um work magic in terms of bridges, et cetera, and retaining structures. So the studies we've done have really focused on some of those underslip areas where we've learned that the cost of um reinstating that road network is typically um on simple ones around a million dollars a slip.
00:05:03
Speaker
But for between 15 and 30 percent of that cost, we probably could have prevented it. And that prevention includes things like understanding the overland flow path, where the water might go during heavy rainfall across that road, um looking at the condition of the pavement, understanding the integrity of the retaining wall that may be holding up that section, for example, that kind of thing. And by ensuring that those things are in sound condition, there we could have gone a long way to preventing that stuff.
00:05:36
Speaker
So that cost of sort of 15 up to 30% in some instances um is what we would refer to as an opportunity to prevent rather than paying to recover.
00:05:47
Speaker
So how would you compare budgets before the storm versus budgets after the storm? How much are you allocating towards that extra 15 to 30% to make sure current assets survive versus um the the budget that you allow for replacing assets if there's another storm tomorrow?
00:06:05
Speaker
We're not funded in that way. So the way AT is funded is is not as simple as just going, oh, I'm going to set aside a whole lot of budget now in case we've got another storm event.
00:06:16
Speaker
um it It doesn't work like that. So we get our funding from about 50% comes from NZTA and about 50% comes from council. and they um And in addition, we receive the fares from public transport. But if I'm looking at our private, I'm sorry, at our main funding sources, it's NZTA and Council.
00:06:39
Speaker
So where central government has um changed policy or approach, for example, with the new um government policy statement for land transport now diverting roadpe funding through to building roads of national significance, um repairing potholes, it's reduced funding on things like walking and cycling, public transport, for example, and while it talks about resilience, there's no funding pot for resilience.
00:07:07
Speaker
And so we're guided or or we're constrained, if you like, by the funding buckets that NZTA has been given by central government. And we're funded on an annual basis. So we while we have a three-year program, um it's on an annual basis and we don't get to retain funding year upon year to build up a big pot like you might for your household, for example. where you put some money away each week to save for a rainy day.
00:07:35
Speaker
That's not how we work. And so we have to spend the money that we get every year. um And then we get a new budget for the next year and then we carry on. So it's kind of complicated and slightly weird.
00:07:48
Speaker
But funding for resilience is not part of that mix unless we're able to do it as part of a standard renewals and maintenance program. It's interesting you don't have a rainy day fund for literal rainy days.
00:08:03
Speaker
and No, not at all. And I think one of the challenges we have is you know, when we had Cyclone Gabriel and those as the storm event the fortnight earlier, um it cost us around $360 million dollars to build back the damage to that road network.
00:08:21
Speaker
And that came um with a lot of assistance from NZTA and Crown Infrastructure Partners, so from central government. they had they've coughed out with a big pot of money. And central government has since indicated that you know local government councils can't keep relying on central government to cough up funding.
00:08:42
Speaker
So central government also funded Auckland Council to buy out a lot of the affected residential properties um from that storm event as well. And so that signal coming now from central government is, well, that rainy day fund has kind of run out, people. We're not coming to the party. you need to do it yourself. And so that's a really hard conversation we need to start having.
00:09:05
Speaker
And what we're doing at Auckland Transport, um through some of the case studies and detailed assessments of the the storm events we've had, is to say, hey, for 15% of the cost, roughly, of recovery, we could have prevented this. Hey, central government Why don't we start looking at those funding tools and mechanisms that you use, say through NZTA, to look at how we could set up a resilience fund for New Zealand.
00:09:34
Speaker
ah Every two years, roughly, we have major storm events. It might not be in Auckland, but Te Rāwhiti was hit. Now we've had the Tasman district, the Ashburton area has gone underwater. We've had them in the Invercargill and Southland.
00:09:48
Speaker
You know, it's not isolated to Auckland. Northland in previous years has been wiped out with floods and cyclones. So New Zealand as a whole needs to be having this conversation on how do we make our networks more resilient?
00:10:05
Speaker
Because those storms seem inevitable at this point and they happen
Electric Transport Developments in Auckland
00:10:08
Speaker
frequently. frequentlyly They're not going away. They're not going away. yeah During the storm, I remember I was walking down Queen Street. I i walked up queen Queen Street to see it. And the Waihautu, which usually runs under Queen Street in the traditional river that still runs underneath the city, was running on top of Queen Street. It was pretty amazing.
00:10:27
Speaker
It is pretty amazing to see. And I think we were seeing the flooding across the region um was phenomenal. And there's of course, there's lots of footage you know of cars being caught on the road network, for example, and things like that. But the thing about flooding is that those waters do recede.
00:10:46
Speaker
They tend not to hang around for weeks um and then we're left with the resulting damage and cleanup. And it's a little bit different to say landslides where the damage does just sit there until it's removed.
00:11:00
Speaker
And so there's different costs and implications associated with that. I think one of the very forward-looking things that AT is doing is electrifying everything, which has been great. Auckland has electric trains. It has electric buses in the fleet.
00:11:17
Speaker
Now we have electric ferries on the water. i know there have been a few setbacks, but what's the overall feeling around electrification of transport? Oh, really excited. Really excited. You know to have electrified the train fleet is huge, but we've also got the biggest electrified bus fleet um in the South Pacific. and super excited about it.
00:11:39
Speaker
And we've got a map now that's walking us towards a fully electrified fleet by 2035 this point. So that and offers an enormous improvement um even to, say, human health through the improvements to air pollution. And people don't think about the the wider benefits of that electrification. So from a way that Auckland Transport is looking to transition to a low-carbon resilient network, those are a big part of what we do. And we've summarised a lot of this work in the Auckland Transport um Climate Transition Plan. It's available on the website. So really exciting to see now that all documented and modelled out to 2050 so we can really understand what
00:12:29
Speaker
um part electrification of a public transport fleet plays in reducing the emissions on our network.
Public's Role & Infrastructure Adaptation
00:12:37
Speaker
Well, I'm glad you brought up congestion because you were a panelist on Carbon Crunch and you made a good point. You said that people need to understand that they are the congestion.
00:12:47
Speaker
Yeah, so to my point, behind that exactly. So every time you're sitting in the car complaining that, you know, you're stuck in a traffic jam or you're parked on the Southern Motorway, you're part of the problem.
00:12:58
Speaker
so um I think it's about understanding that, yes, we're a very car-centric city at the moment, but i'm I'm seeing that starting to move as we get back to our pre-COVID passenger numbers on our public transport network, for example, um as more people take up walking and cycling and um other ways of getting around Auckland.
00:13:21
Speaker
um ah Again, it comes back to the comments I made on that autonomous vehicle. You know, every time we add a new car to the road, we're adding to that slowdown. um of congestion. It would be really cool if the road and cars and, you know, that's freight services as well, if that roadway was available to the people who really needed to use it um and the people who had an opportunity to use public transport or an alternative mode took that opportunity up.
00:13:52
Speaker
And what are those alternatives right now or plan to be? Well, we're looking at things like um improving walking and cycling. It's not flavour of the month with central government at this point. And we saw that clearly signalled two years ago with the government policy statement on land transport, um removing funding from that space. um But ultimately, walking around your neighbourhood, cycling to school, cycling to work where it where it remains viable, um looking at getting on the train, getting on um the buses, using the ferries, and car sharing where you need to means that the road network is available for those who really do need to use it.
00:14:31
Speaker
We have the existing fabric of the city that's kind of standing in the way of new developments or new routes. How does AT strategize around that existing fabric literally standing in the way?
Balancing Infrastructure with Urban Development
00:14:43
Speaker
We've got a few examples now across the region where we don't have enough lanes. um Redout Road in Manukau has been done in the last couple of years where There are a fixed number of lanes. There is a fixed road width.
00:14:56
Speaker
But we recognise that um in the afternoon peak, we want more traffic going this way. In the morning peak, we want more traffic going the other way. And so by using lighting and signals, um we can um add extra lanes. You see it on the Harbour Bridge all the time where they're moving that central medium barrier just to accommodate those flows um to improve the efficiency at different times of day.
00:15:20
Speaker
And I think we've got enormous opportunity to look more carefully at that space before we go knocking over rows of houses. I've seen that on several roads. I thought it was very clever. Exactly. and But it's it's a serious win-win because it requires less infrastructure. um It's a whole lot cheaper. It reduces the carbon emissions associated with the build.
00:15:44
Speaker
um It's quicker to do. So there's less disruption for for average traffic users. um I can't see any negatives about it. So I understand right now that the government is trying to increase densification in the cities, especially around the transport hubs. How does that change the strength the transport strategy for AT?
00:16:07
Speaker
No, I think it plays right into it. So we're really excited now to see that transport-orientated development happening, say, around the new CRL station locations. where we can start building and intensification of housing um and just where people live, and being very accessible to those transport solutions.
00:16:28
Speaker
It means not everybody in the house has to have a car. um what What an unusual idea that might be. And, you know, less less parking required.
00:16:39
Speaker
So it allows people to live and work and move around a whole lot more easily. So that plays exactly into the direction that we're heading.
00:16:50
Speaker
Where we see that challenge play out is where we've got that greenfield sprawl happening. And where, ah in contrast, we're turning into l LA and we all hold up l LA and other cities around the world as a horror of concrete highways and congestion. And we go, oh, we don't want to be that.
00:17:11
Speaker
But this constant sprawl around the fringes and using up that green space makes it really hard to um put in effective infrastructure.
00:17:22
Speaker
And I think there was studies done by the Productivity Commission in Australia recently where they identified the cost of um to productivity of greenfield development versus brownfield. And so brownfield being the already built environment being redeveloped and intensified.
00:17:43
Speaker
So there was a massive cost in infrastructure requirements associated with that greenfield space compared to what's required with redeveloping what we already have. Yeah, that's interesting because I'm thinking of Warkworth, which is 60 kilometres away. Some people don't realise how big Auckland really is and the amount of spread and sprawl that we're seeing, which is quite large.
00:18:06
Speaker
How are you ah tackling people who live that far away or those developments that are coming online as far as the public transport sector goes? Yeah, it's it's a real challenge um in terms of providing fast, frequent and reliable public transport services. um In the north, we rely a whole lot less on trains, for example, um and Walkwith, of course, um but doesn't have ferry access. So we're we're delivering bus networks in that space.
00:18:35
Speaker
And so you you put on a bus service and that's what we've done. But if you were to actually focus on the transport nodes, which is where we'd like to see that further, greater development to accommodate more Aucklanders, That is where you get a better bang for your buck in terms of people being able to move around more easily.
00:18:58
Speaker
And it's good that Auckland Transport has that electrification aspect to it because I know that as the sprawl continues, we get more car use and that car use results in a lot more pollution.
00:19:10
Speaker
um How does AT t look at health as a benefit to the community based on what the transport decisions that AT makes? Yeah, think you'll find Auckland Council has done um a series of studies and they release data every year or two on air quality in Auckland and recent data from them is still indicating, you know, hundreds of premature deaths in Auckland every year from air pollution.
00:19:36
Speaker
And we're finding continued increase in um the parameters that we monitor or council NZTA and NIWA monitor things like NOx, NO2, particulate matter, and we're looking there at PM2.5. So the really small microscopic particles that um cause the most damage in our lungs.
00:20:01
Speaker
And that kind of, those particles and parameters are monitored continuously um through monitoring sites by Auckland Council, and that data is publicly available. So we can see where we've had an impact on air quality, for example, by shifting all the buses and that that run through that area um to electric buses.
00:20:22
Speaker
That's great. And access to transport also impacts equity. How would you describe those impacts? Yeah, equity is about recognising that not everybody has the same um ah access or opportunity to access our transport network and or options around the way they move around. Equality means everyone's got the same um opportunities, but equity takes into account that some people may have fewer options.
00:20:55
Speaker
And as we transition, I think, to a low carbon and more resilient transport system in Auckland, we need to think really carefully around what that equity lens um looks like.
00:21:11
Speaker
And i think it's something we've been looking at quite closely say, around um cap the transport pricing where we may look at um making the motorway, for example, have a ah ah pricing cost or congestion cost which will push people into local roads.
00:21:30
Speaker
But that has an impact on people, say, driving from south or west Auckland who may not have transport options available to them at the time they need to get to work. And so they're forced to drive through that and that becomes a penalty.
00:21:44
Speaker
for them as as a cost factor. So there's lots of ways of looking at it. um One of the real challenges we have is around say our bus operations and many of our routes are insufficiently patronized. That means there's not enough people using the bus to pay for that bus service on a commercial basis. And so we get subsidies from NZTA to run those services, which is ah good and proper and appropriate.
00:22:13
Speaker
But the challenge when money gets tight um and those subsidies are reduced is to look at, say, some of those services that are perhaps into lower socioeconomic parts of Auckland and go, well, not enough people use it, so maybe we'll take it away.
00:22:30
Speaker
And that becomes a real equity issue for those communities in that they are forced back into using a car and we take away those transport choices.
Political Influence on Transport Projects
00:22:40
Speaker
So it's a really challenging discussion. around how do we provide choice for Aucklanders. If you live in the central Isthmus area, you've got heaps of public transport choices.
00:22:51
Speaker
But as you go further out, it gets fewer um and it gets more expensive for us to deliver. So it's really understanding those trade-offs. And of course, talking about equity brings up the elephant in the room, I think, which is politics. I know recently recently you spoke with the panel and you mentioned the fact that um we all around the world we are dealing with polarized governments right now. And there seems to be a flip when one government comes into place. They have different policies than the last one.
00:23:20
Speaker
Here in New Zealand, unfortunately, um we're very proud of those electric ferries that have come out, but the current government has decided to move away from that and went back to diesel ferries, which is not very climate friendly. um how do you How do you get through those swings in in politics and how do you see kind of the silver lining on the other side of it?
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think being sustainability professionals, Seth, I mean, you're working in this world as well. um You kind of watch and listen to some of the political rhetoric, be it within New Zealand or even internationally, and you just go, really?
00:24:01
Speaker
But I think you've got to remember that we operate within a political world. And those political cycles for New Zealand come every three years. And I kind of like to think of it as a wave and the waves crash on the shore every three years. And it's about learning to ride those waves and not get bogged down in the rhetoric.
00:24:25
Speaker
I think, though, when i I tend to treat personally, I treat that political stuff as noise. Because when I'm talking to say corporate New Zealand who are ah manufacturing and exporting into that international market, they're just doubling down on a lot of the climate requirements such as understanding and reporting their emissions, building resilience into the way they um manufacture and deliver because of the climate hazard and that are intensifying. And so despite the political noise,
00:25:02
Speaker
New Zealand businesses often are just doubling down and getting it done. I think they're talking about it less, but no one's stopped.
Vision for Sustainable Urban Infrastructure
00:25:12
Speaker
That all sounds very positive, but what do you see are the biggest challenges facing infrastructure today?
00:25:19
Speaker
I think the biggest challenge is is that it's ageing. um that we've built infrastructure over the years and we've done it really well. But, you know, we might have built it with a 50-year design life and now we're sitting on 46 years, for example, um and we're coming to the end of that life and we hadn't set aside funding to actually renew it um And that depreciation funding was swiped for something else.
00:25:43
Speaker
So the biggest challenge is is looking at our ageing infrastructure in New Zealand and wondering, um what are we going to do about this? But I see a couple of things that that would have helped us along the way.
00:25:56
Speaker
Firstly, whole of life approach would have been a better outcome. So rather than just building stuff because we've got capital money to spend, we need to build stuff that we can afford to maintain and maintain in ways that are not going to be onerous or hard to access or require just very bespoke solutions.
00:26:18
Speaker
um New Zealand is too small to constantly build bespoke infrastructure. There are people in places around the world for whom stormwater networks, water networks, roads, et cetera, are bread and butter. Let's learn from that and build this cocky cutter stuff that doesn't require bespoke, expensive maintenance.
00:26:41
Speaker
What do you see as the potential infrastructure of tomorrow? What excites you about it? Oh, I see the opportunity to integrate nature. into our infrastructure, to actually take that bigger picture lens, to look at where we build and how we build and how we can integrate nature into our urban environment, to look at reusing and repurposing the assets we currently have rather than just assuming we've got to keep building new stuff.
00:27:12
Speaker
I see a really cool opportunity to now build that urban fabric in the way we'd like to live. that's That's what makes it really exciting. And to do it in a way that provides a cool environment for um the people who live there, who who don't get to see nature every day. We can bring nature into them through green roofs, green walls, street trees, rain gardens.
00:27:41
Speaker
um in that kind of way.
Benefits of Public Transport
00:27:44
Speaker
That's a fantastic vision. Keep walking in that direction. That's right. We've got to work towards it.
00:27:53
Speaker
Well, going to end on a very serious note with a serious question. How bad are human drivers? Because it seems like... ah It seems like the one problem with the network of transportation that we have is the human element, of course, and and the driving especially. And wouldn't that strengthen the argument for more public transport and mode shift?
00:28:15
Speaker
Of course it would. ah Of course. But you know what? If you go and ask New Zealand drivers who the best drivers are, it's always them. Who are the with worst drivers? It's always the other people. Well, I would agree with that.
00:28:28
Speaker
Of course.
00:28:31
Speaker
But if you look at our crash and deaths and serious injuries rate um on a world standing, yeah, we're not too flash. So clearly the other drivers are at fault. Yeah, setting aside climate and congestion and all the other issues, I find that to be one of the best um impacts of public transport is just the fact that you ah have a reliable source of transport that doesn't depend on the whims of human drivers. Very good.
00:28:57
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate it, Cathy. My pleasure. was nice talking to you. Thank you. And thank you for listening to another episode of Infrastructure Connections. Please take a moment to follow us wherever you get your podcasts and we want your feedback.
00:29:14
Speaker
Leave a comment down below to let us know your thoughts or drop us a line at the Infrastructure Sustainability Council. Stay tuned for the next episode of Infrastructure Connections.