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S3E11 - Road Ecology w/ Ben Goldfarb
35 Plays1 month ago
๐ช๐ต๐ฎ๐ ๐ธ๐ถ๐น๐น๐ฒ๐ฑ ๐ญ๐ฌ ๐บ๐ถ๐น๐น๐ถ๐ผ๐ป ๐ฎ๐ป๐ถ๐บ๐ฎ๐น๐ ๐น๐ฎ๐๐ ๐๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ฟ ๐ถ๐ป ๐๐๐๐๐ฟ๐ฎ๐น๐ถa?
Ben Goldfarb found that roads are "the leading direct human cause of vertebrate mortality on land." More than hunting, wildfires, dams, and urban habitat loss combined.
The costs are enormous.
According to the @Insurance Australia Group Limited (IAG) animal-vehicle collisions cost Australia $7 billion every year through:
โข Vehicle damage
โข Towing and insurance costs
โข Human hospital bills
โข Almost 150 human pedestrian deaths each year
โข Road repairs
But the real damage to animals and the environment is invisible.
โข Lost access to breeding grounds
โข Lost access to food sources
โข Impeded migration
โข Biodiversity loss as seeds fail to cross roads
โข Reductions in fertile females
โข Starvation
โข Functional extinction
โข Species extinction
There is good news. Australia is increasingly leading the world in wildlife crossings, building:
โข Arboreal bridges
โข The Crab Bridges of Christmas Island
โข Koala log bridges through underpasses
โข Flying squirrel poles.
Road ecologists continue to find ways to reduce the impact of roads on our environment. ๐ง๐ต๐ฒ ๐ฐ๐ผ๐๐ ๐ผ๐ณ ๐๐ต๐ถ๐ ๐ถ๐ป๐ณ๐ฟ๐ฎ๐๐๐ฟ๐๐ฐ๐๐๐ฟ๐ฒ ๐ฝ๐ฎ๐๐ ๐ณ๐ผ๐ฟ ๐ถ๐๐๐ฒ๐น๐ณ.
๐ We'd love to hear your feedback, share your questions or comments below.
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๐ Keep up to date with the Infrastructure Sustainability Council:
Website: https://www.iscouncil.org/
LinkedIn: / infrastructure-sustainability-council
#infrastructure #podcast #infrastructureconnections #sustainability #crossings #roadecology
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Transcript
The Impact of Animal Collisions
00:00:00
Speaker
The first thing to establish is just how dangerous and expensive collisions with large animals are.
00:00:14
Speaker
Imagine this. You're on a road late at night in a rural area and you see the road is moving. I don't have to imagine it because that's what happened to me in Oklahoma.
00:00:26
Speaker
Oklahoma, for those who don't know, is like the Australia of the United States. There are snakes that fall out of trees like drop bears. There's giant tarantulas. So I was a little nervous.
00:00:37
Speaker
looked like a snowdrift covering the road, but it was in the middle of summer, so I knew something else was happening. I pulled over the car, I got out, and I looked behind me.
00:00:48
Speaker
And in the morbid glow of red taillights, I could see this line stretching out behind the vehicle where my tire marks had been. And it was entirely made up of tiny squished frogs.
00:01:02
Speaker
Scientists call this a mass squishing. It was a frog migration that they'd all decided to cross the road at the same time. Quite tragic. I feel bad. And that's what we'll be
Introduction to Infrastructure Connections Podcast
00:01:13
Speaker
talking about today. Welcome back to Infrastructure Connections, the podcast where we explore what makes sustainable infrastructure work, brought to you by the Infrastructure Sustainability Council.
00:01:22
Speaker
I'm your host, Seth Scott, and today we'll be talking to Ben Goldfarb. Ben is an independent conservation journalist. He's the author of Crossings, How Road Ecology is Shaping the Future of Our Planet.
00:01:35
Speaker
The New York Times named it one of the best books of 2023, and I have to agree after having read it. He writes for National Geographic, The Atlantic, The Guardian, and many more publications. He joins us from Colorado.
00:01:49
Speaker
Hi, Ben. Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks a lot for having me. So what is it about writing about nature that inspires you? You know, i've I've always loved wildlife and and ecology and just being in the outdoors. I grew up ah fishing, especially. I spent a lot of time around rivers and lakes and streams and ponds, which became ah a gateway to to hiking and backpacking and and bird watching and just, you know, coming to care about all really all all creatures, all all all nature. And so these days I write about ecology, about conservation biology, and increasingly about the ah impacts of of infrastructure on the yeah ecosystems and and wildlife that I care about.
00:02:31
Speaker
So you wrote the book, Crossings, How Road Ecology is Shaping the Future
What is Road Ecology?
00:02:35
Speaker
of Our Planet. What is road ecology and how widespread is it? I would describe road ecology as a ah relatively small but very fast-growing field of science that looks at all of the different ways that roads and really all transportation networks and systems interact with with nature. You know, I would say that road ecology really starts in a lot of ways with, you know, the most conspicuous or or obvious interaction, which is that, you know, that That road kill, right? The dead animal by the side of the highway. ah But, you know, road ecologists increasingly work on ah other maybe subtler impacts of roads on nature as well from habitat fragmentation, the barrier effect, you know, the fact that animals can't cross busy roads to complete their migrations or find mates. to the impacts of tire particles on fish on fish populations, to the effects that road noise pollution has on songbird migrations. ah So, you know, roads have this really vast ah and and in some cases, I would say, surprising or unexpected series of relationships with with nature and road ecologists are...
00:03:50
Speaker
interested in in investigating those relationships and I think really importantly figuring out how we mitigate and and manage them, how we solve the problems that roads create
Inspiration Behind 'Crossings'
00:04:01
Speaker
for nature. So in that sense, it's a really applied science.
00:04:04
Speaker
Well, I read the book while I was on a road trip and there was something very meta about reading about roads while riding in a car on a road. What inspired you to write the book in the first place after your book on beavers?
00:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's funny. I get that reaction a lot from people, especially people who who listen to the audio book while they're you know driving around and they're always like, yeah, you you know you ruined my road trip. I was having this totally lovely time and then I listened to your book and I couldn't stop noticing dead deer. so that's ah a pretty common experience. um you know I would say that this this book really emerged in a lot of ways. In 2013, I was in Montana writing ah a series of articles about habitat fragmentation. and about you know the fact that of course, ah animals, especially large animals like the ones who inhabit the Northern Rockies in the US, animals like grizzly bears and elk and wolves and wolverines, you know they need to walk long distances to survive, to find mates and food and all of the things that all organisms need. and And of course, walking long distances in the US, the country with the world's largest road network, generally entails crossing highways.
The Role of Wildlife Crossings
00:05:14
Speaker
And, you know, in the course of of writing these articles about habitat fragmentation and the need for for connectivity between these different environments, I had the chance to take a tour of some wildlife crossings, an overpass and some underpasses on Highway 93 Montana. that had been built on the Flathead Reservation, the land of the Confederated Salish and Kootenai tribes, ah you know, who basically insisted that the government include these these crossings when they rebuilt the highway so that the animals that the tribes cared about could could safely move back and forth over and under this highway. And it was just ah this incredibly...
00:05:53
Speaker
inspiring experience for me to see these these wildlife crossings and actually to stand on top of this overpass. You know, we do so much on this planet to make animals' lives harder and more dangerous. And, you know, here was this multi-million dollar piece of infrastructure we'd built to make their lives safer and easier. And I so i found something really beautiful in that. And I was also inspired by the intellectual challenge of road ecology and of wildlife crossings, right? To build ah a wildlife crossing that that gets used by a mule deer or a black bear or a bobcat. you know you have to be able to think like those animals to some extent to put yourself in the the hooves or the paws of other species and you know try to imagine how they experience the the human built world. We all have those stories that you can't drive for very long without actually hitting an animal or or some kind of creature. And so, in fact, there was one rabbit fatality on that road trip that was talking about. I guess when we drive, we justify it to ourselves and we say, oh, you know, it's just one rabbit. There's thousands
The Roadkill Crisis for Endangered Species
00:06:59
Speaker
out there. Yeah. You know, what I think that's ah that's an important point, too, that that, you know, I do think we have this way, maybe sometimes subconsciously, of understating roadkill's conservation impact, right? Because as as you say, you know, just probabilistically, the animals who are killed most frequently are the most common animals, right? So here in the U.S., you know, you see lots of dead animals. squirrels and raccoons and white-tailed deer. And you know I think we kind of say, maybe again again, maybe subconsciously, well, you know yeah, it's sad, lots of squirrels are being killed. That's a bummer for those individual squirrels.
00:07:33
Speaker
But you know there are millions of squirrels out there, right? But you know actually there are dozens of of, you know, threatened and endangered species here in the U.S. and, you know, i' I would say certainly hundreds worldwide where, you know, roadkill is the primary source of mortality, right? You know, I mean, that take Florida panthers or ocelots or Hawaiian geese, you know, all of these, ah these Again, endangered species, you know, that are largely threatened by by roadkill. You know, Florida panthers being a good example. There are, what, a couple hundred Florida panthers out there. ah And, you know, road mortality is, is you know, at least 20% of panther mortality every year. It's the, you know, the the leading source. And, you know, as as you say, I mean, roadkill is just, you know, kind of the tip of the iceberg.
00:08:22
Speaker
Your book had a great quote, which I'm going to read. it's cars hijacked their victims' own biology, subverting evolutionary history and rendering it maladaptive. You talked about how animals have poor defenses against cars because they weren't biologically designed to deal with cars in the first place. So talk about how most animals seem to have a stand your ground or proximity approach towards danger, which just doesn't work with fast moving vehicles.
00:08:48
Speaker
Yeah, certainly. You know, one of the animals that I always think about are turtles, right? You know, turtles being, you know, the kind of the one of the ah unfortunately really obvious or iconic roadkill victims, you know, I mean, animals that were really driving to extinction in in many cases. you know both here in the US and you know certainly in in in other countries as well, including Australia. And the reason for that, obviously, is that turtles have this you know brilliant stand your ground defense mechanism, which is the shell, right? And the shell was incredibly effective ah for hundreds of millions of years. Of course, turtles are organisms you know that that predate the dinosaurs. And you know if your if your predator is here in the US, a wolf or a coyote or you know a mountain lion, right withdrawing your head and limbs into your shell is ah is a really effective ah strategy for survival. The problem is that when your predator is you know ah a Ford F-250 truck barreling down the highway at 80 miles an hour, the worst possible thing you can do is withdraw into your shell, right? you know And you get, of course, you get crushed. And so we see these catastrophic turtle mortality events along you know many ah many American highways. ah you know ah i mean you can You can name a million animals you know who basically have evolved to kind of stand their ground. And ah you know that's, again, the worst thing you can do in the face of a vehicle, unfortunately.
00:10:24
Speaker
yeah And you said birds judge the distance between themselves and the threat. And of course, a car traveling fast enough, they don't have time to fly away when they realize that distance has been passed. Yeah, that's exactly right. you know I mean, i mean that's of course, like the the car is just so much faster than anything most organisms would have encountered in their evolutionary history, right? There's just there's there's no way of really comprehending an 80-mile-an-hour vehicle you know when your habitual predator is a fox that you know doesn't move more than, let's say, 20 miles an hour. I was driving in South Australia and the roadkill there was so bad it was about one one kangaroo per kilometer. They were practically kilometer markers. They were so frequent on the side of the road.
00:11:09
Speaker
In your book, you talked about gap acceptance, which deer follow, which is where they have to have a certain amount of distance between two threats before they'll bother it to cross the road. Deer, that could be 30 to 60 seconds, whereas humans, it's five seconds.
00:11:23
Speaker
Yeah, and that's, you know, i'm I'm glad you mentioned that that gap acceptance work because I think it's it's really important work. And that was a scientist named Corinna Reginos who basically filmed roadsides and in Wyoming and just watched deer interact with cars and and figured out exactly what you said, which is that, you know, it it really takes, ah you know, a minute or more for deer to feel totally comfortable, you know, safely crossing highways. And, you know, a car every minute is an incredibly, know,
00:11:53
Speaker
lightly trafficked highway, right? The vast, vast majority of highways globally, you know, are are much more trafficked than that. And so, you know, that really tells us that, again, there's this huge barrier effect problem, this fragmentation problem, right? That it's not just roadkill. It's the fact that, as you say, you know, deer who are frustrated time and again and trying to cross the road eventually give up uh and you know we we see in some cases you know starvation rates of 40 percent in some uh deer herds in in winter because they can't cross highways to get to that really good uh kind of low elevation snow-free uh winter range and and so the only way to get animals safely across the road is basically to create you know this physically separated track for them, right? Again, ah an overpass, a bridge essentially, or an underpass, ah a tunnel essentially. you know We have to separate them from the surface of the physical road itself.
00:12:51
Speaker
And what I thought was interesting was it isn't just the road itself or the danger of the road itself. It's the road noise that can last up to three miles away to
Beyond Roadkill: Non-lethal Road Impacts
00:13:00
Speaker
deter wildlife. So there's this great experiment called the Phantom Road Experiment that was conducted in the state of Idaho by these researchers at at Boise State University. And basically what they did was they they They audio recorded traffic and then they played that traffic recording through speakers in ah an unroaded part of the forest. So you're just, you know, you're you're stripping out the single variable. You're isolating the variable of noise. You know, there are no, there's no road present. There's no, there are no vehicles present. All there is, is the the noise of the road. And what they found very clearly was that migratory songbirds generally avoided that area where they were playing the road noise through speakers. ah And, you know, I think really tellingly, those birds who did still hang out in that that vicinity actually had ah much more.
00:13:54
Speaker
sort of They were in worse body condition. They gained less weight. ah And that's basically because, you know, if you're ah a little songbird, you know, you have to constantly listen for your predators, right? you know, the flap of ah of a hawk's wings or, ah you know, a bobcat creeping through the underbrush. ah But if you...
00:14:13
Speaker
If you can't hear your predators because those subtle acoustic signals are drowned out by road noise, you have to look around for your predators instead. And you know every second you're looking is a second that you're not feeding, right? And so you know you don't gain as much weight and that potentially makes you less fit to complete your your migration. And so in that sense, you know, road noise is this, again, kind of subtle, non-lethal, or at least non-directly lethal ah impact of the road that can, you know, nevertheless really add up and, and you know, have these these population level consequences.
00:14:50
Speaker
This all sounds horrific. So let's let's talk about the solutions because that was a big part of the book as well. And um in sustainability, we find it useful to translate some of the sustainability initiatives like carbon into dollar values, which is something that most people can understand a little bit more clearly. And rotocologists were successful by doing the same thing using a cost benefit analysis to determine the value of animal crossings to society. Tell us about how they came up with that and how successful that's been.
Are Wildlife Crossings Economically Justifiable?
00:15:22
Speaker
Certainly, yeah. you know and I think that look the the first thing to establish is just how dangerous and expensive collisions with large animals are. right you know if i mean If you hit a deer here in the US, you know the average deer collision costs society more than $9 million dollars in hospital bills, vehicle repairs, insurance costs, tow trucks, on and on, you know, hundreds of drivers are killed every year. These are really dangerous collisions as as well. And, you know, certainly nobody in Australia wants to hit a kangaroo either, right? that's ah That's a large animal that can mess your car up as well. I'm not sure if the costs of kangaroo collisions have ever been quantified, but, you know, I bet they're they're pretty steep, right? So, you know, if you can build infrastructure that prevents
00:16:09
Speaker
Many of these collisions every year as as wildlife crossings and fences along the road, ah you know which keep the animals off the highway and kind of direct the animals to the crossings, you know those wildlife crossings and fences in many, many cases you know prevent a number of collisions annually and and thus recoup their own construction costs pretty quickly. There have been you know plenty of plenty of published case studies out there of wildlife crossings, even you know multimillion dollar networks of crossings and fences you know paying for themselves in a decade or two, you know certainly much faster than their design life, which I think is is typically considered around 75 years. um So, you know there's ah look, there's always a little bit of sticker shock ah you know within transportation agencies and public and the public when you talk about the costs of these projects. right These days, you know the average ah wildlife overpass you know here in the U.S. is probably going to start at $10 million. dollars And you know the average underpass is you know certainly ah you know ah ah million dollars or up.
00:17:14
Speaker
So that sounds like a lot, right? we're Really? we're We're going to spend millions of dollars helping antelope cross a highway? That's kind of crazy. ah You know, it seems frivolous, ah but, you know, when you when you really do the math, ah You know, these these projects are are actually incredibly thrifty. So what kind of animal crossings are you seeing built? What are kind of some of the varieties that you've seen around the world for different kinds of animals? The underpass is sort of like the standard thing, right? You know, you can imagine a big box culvert or, you know, kind of a stream crossing. You know, any animal that's walking along that stream, ah you know, can basically follow that that you know that water course under the the roadway. there There is this really amazing diversity here in the the US and you know Australia has these as well. you know We've got overpasses, right effectively a bridge. um And then you know the other the other really cool trend that you know we see yeah in in Australia and a number of tropical countries are are these canopy crossings in places with...
00:18:16
Speaker
our Arboreal animals yeah like squirrel gliders are kind of the famous Australian case study where, you know, you've got these little arboreal marsupials and, you know, their their territories are split by highways. The challenge for them is that, you know, they're not going to descend to the forest floor to use a conventional underpass, right? So you really have to reconnect the They're isolated arboreal habitats at the level of the treetop. And and so, you know, you see these these networks of rope ladders, of of of bridges, essentially rope bridges, and in some cases, you know, what they call glider poles. ah so the gliders can actually glide from you know from pole to pole across the highway. And now you see these you know these these sorts of canopy crossings ah for primates in Brazil and sloths in Costa Rica and and really ah you know all over the all over the tropics.
00:19:10
Speaker
So again, you know just thinking about the unique ecology and biology and habitat requirements of you know whatever species you're mitigating for us is so important. Well, that's one of the things I found i found fascinating is and we often think of roads as a horizontal barrier to animals when we think of it at all. But it's also a vertical barrier to animals. So even birds can have to worry about roadkill.
00:19:33
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. You know, and I mean, look, bird collisions are a huge unsung problem. You know, I mean, hundreds of millions of birds, ah you know, get killed by cars every year. i mean, i'd I would say globally, you know, it's really behind only ah cats and window strikes as ah as a cause of bird mortality. So it's a a huge problem and, you know, a really tough one to solve. But, you know you are there are solutions and things. as you alluded to, right, just, you know, creating some kind of barrier that forces birds to fly over traffic rather than through traffic can be really helpful. There's a ah a ah case study that I mentioned in the book as well, similar along similar lines, this causeway, you know, over the ocean, essentially this, you know, kind of elevated causeway in Florida and all of these turns. And I think pelicans were getting hit by cars as they flew through, kind of across this causeway. And they basically added a bunch of poles, ah vertical poles to the to the causeway just to create this kind of visual obstruction that forced birds to fly over traffic rather than through it. And that that dramatically reduced ah turn collisions. um So, you know, again, bird, bird collisions, insect collisions, all of these you know these flying animals, are you know tough tougher to mitigate than the mammals ah for sure, but you know we've got we've got some options. It's amazing that the solution could be that simple, just putting up some poles and then that's enough to deter them.
00:21:00
Speaker
It was interesting, you described cars as super predators. It's an amazing way to think of it when you're just on your Sunday drive, you're actually the super predator on the i on the ecology ladder.
Vehicles as Predators
00:21:10
Speaker
You know if you think about a natural ecosystem, a natural population, let's ah you know imagine ah a herd of deer and a pack of wolves, you know, those wolves are taking out the least fit members of the population, right? They're targeting, you know, the the older, sicker animals or or you know maybe the you know the the younger ones you know who haven't yet become you know breeding adults. um So you know those wolves are kind of weeding out the sick and the old and the young, ah but you know they're they're really generally not targeting the most fit adult breeding animals who are so important for the the maintenance of that deer population. right
00:21:51
Speaker
Whereas roadkill is this totally indiscriminate predator. You know, ah ah ah an 18-wheeled semi-truck doesn't care whether, you know, you're ah an important, a demographically important adult female breeder. It doesn't care if you're young or old or healthy or sick. It's just totally...
00:22:12
Speaker
indiscriminate. And I, you know, I think in, in that sense, it's, it's hugely problematic because it's, it's ah you know, again, it's taking out ah not just ah the old sick individuals like a natural predator would, but also the healthy ones that, you know, the, the, the, the The breeding females, especially, ah you know, you see that, i mean, I've mentioned turtles, but, you know, turtles are another great example of that where, you know, oftentimes it's it's the female turtles who are getting hit because those are the ones who are venturing out onto land, you know, to lay their eggs and and have to cross roads in the process. And so, you know, we see this this dramatic change.
00:22:50
Speaker
skewed sex ratio where, you know, where lots of the, the reproductively important females are, are being killed. And so, you know, you might look at a pond and, you know, see a few turtles in there, but, you know, those are the males, ah you know, who, ah who have survived. Meanwhile, the females are unfortunately flattened and the the population has no future. And so, you know, the ways in which, yeah, roadkill is this, again, totally undiscerning predator ah that, you know, takes out the animals that,
00:23:21
Speaker
populations need the most. I think that's really pernicious.
The Aramocene Era
00:23:32
Speaker
But those turtles being males are functionally extinct. And even if there's enough of them to breed for a while, they're still functionally extinct. And that's that's kind of frightening. One of the most frightening terms in your book, I felt, was the word the Aramocene. mean, we've all heard about the Anthropocene, where we can see in geological time the impact of human beings on this planet with plastics and and oil. Yeah.
00:23:55
Speaker
But the Aramisene is that age of loneliness that we'll have to live through as we are increasingly the last species on the planet. And um i thought I find that haunting. I actually do see it when I go snorkeling. I don't see many fish. I don't see many plants. It just seems like a desert out there. I see it when I go into the forest. And even though I'm in a forest, it's a forest of pines planted by humans. And there's no bird song because there's no birds in the forest. It's quite terrifying.
00:24:23
Speaker
ah How do you see that? You're out in nature all the time and you write about nature. how does that kind of guide what what your thoughts are while you're out there?
00:24:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's that's ah a sad but um you know really poignant question. And I you know i think it's ah it's it's it is a really important point, right? It's you know it's a term coined by by, of course, the famous biologist E.O. Wilson. ah And you know i think I think one of the things that it it it captures is that you know it's not just extinction, right? I think that the the bigger problem and and you know certainly the problem that changes our experience of the world more dramatically ah is defaunation, some people have have put it, or biological annihilation. you know The fact that even formerly common animals are becoming rarer and rarer. you know i Like you, I feel like
00:25:19
Speaker
you know, i mean I think about like some of the ponds that I grew up, you know, fishing at and catching frogs and salamanders and turtles at. ah And, you know, they they were these places that were teeming with life with, you know, with snapping turtles and leopard frogs and spotted salamanders, right? And now they're just they're just they're just kind of dead. and And, you know, and those species aren't going to become extinct anytime soon, right? There are lots of snapping turtles out there. You know, they're they're not an extinction level threat, but they're just much less abundant on the landscape they were in there and they're much less part of our daily lives. And I think i think that's what that that term really gets at is is that there's this
00:25:59
Speaker
Along with with biological extinction, there's this extinction of experience that we're all suffering through, that we we're just in much less contact with wildlife and and nature than we ever were. and you know And part of that is that we're you know increasingly indoor animals and screen-addicted animals. But ah you know part of it is also that so many of the the common creatures that surrounded us are are ever rarer.
Human and Wildlife Parallels in Road Ecology
00:26:28
Speaker
I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that road ecology doesn't just study flora and fauna. It also studies the road's impact on humans as well. um Can you talk a little bit about that? For example, the noise pollution and how it affects us?
00:26:41
Speaker
One of the things I tried to do in in in the book was draw some of those parallels, you know, because because I do think that road ecologists, you know, they do they do tend to be fairly focused on wildlife and quote unquote natural ecosystems. And meanwhile, there's this whole other You know series of parallel fields like pedestrian science, ah you know, that that that look at infrastructure's impacts on on humans. and And, you know, in my book, I really tried to draw some of those parallels and, and you know, and and encourage those.
00:27:16
Speaker
disparate communities to interact more because in you know in some respects they're really studying the same thing. right i mean the The fragmentation of ecosystems ah you know in road ecology and you know the fragmentation of human communities you know is increasingly concern of urbanists and and planners.
00:27:32
Speaker
It makes sense. Humans are natural creatures and we're part of nature. and so We're also getting run down by cars and we're also impacted in many of the same ways. Well, I really appreciate having on the show. it was fantastic. So informative. And um I think I'm definitely recommending your book to as many people as I can. i hope the listeners also check out the book. There's a lot more information in there than what we covered here.
00:27:54
Speaker
So yeah, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks a lot for having me. That was great.
00:28:00
Speaker
And thank you for listening to another episode of Infrastructure Connections. Please take a moment to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd like to hear from who you'd like to listen to.
00:28:11
Speaker
So please let us know down in the comments who you'd like us to interview next. Until then, stay tuned for the next episode of Infrastructure Connections.