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S3E2 - Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure w/ Anthony Kane
24 Plays12 days ago
Host Seth Scott interviews Anthony Kane, President and CEO of Assistant Professor of Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure. Anthony Kane is President & CEO of the Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure (ISI), a Washington, DC-based nonprofit which facilitates the Envision Sustainable Infrastructure Framework. Anthony also serves as a commissioner on the DC Commission on Climate Change and Resiliency. Envision is a rating system very similar to the IS Rating, and we often collaborate. IN this episode, we're exploring how the Envision sustainability rating works in countries as diverse as the US, Canada, Columbia, Guatemala, China, and even Ethiopia.
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
10 out of 10 times, the sustainable solution is the better return on your investment. Welcome back to Infrastructure Connections, the podcast where we explore what makes sustainable infrastructure work, brought to you by the Infrastructure Sustainability Council.
00:00:16
Speaker
I'm your host, Seth Scott, and today we're talking to Anthony Cain. Anthony is the president and CEO of the Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure in Washington, D.C. The ISI runs the
Origins and Development of Envision
00:00:28
Speaker
Envision Sustainable Infrastructure Framework, a ratings program similar to ours.
00:00:33
Speaker
Previously a research director at the Zoffnest program at Harvard University, Anthony has a background in architecture and design and also serves as a commissioner on the DC Commission on Climate Change and Resiliency.
00:00:46
Speaker
Hi, Anthony. Welcome to the show. Hi. great to be here. Thank you. So I understand the IS rating and Envision are similar and share similar roots. So tell us about Envision. What is it? How did you get involved? How is it developed?
00:00:59
Speaker
And what does it do? Who's using it? Yeah. So I actually, i like to refer Envision and i s IS as almost like cousins. We came out about the same time. ah In the case of Envision, we released in 2012, but the Institute for Sustainable Infrastructure, we were created back in 2010.
00:01:17
Speaker
through a collaboration of three major
Impact and Global Reach of Envision
00:01:19
Speaker
American associations. So the American Society of Civil Engineers, the American Public Works Association, and the American Council of Engineering Companies. They got together and they really saw the transformative impact that rating systems like LEED were having in the building side, ah but recognized that LEED didn't really apply to a lot of the the heavy infrastructure projects that our industry deals with.
00:01:42
Speaker
So they created ISI to represent all of their constituents and specifically to create the Envision rating system. We then partnered with Harvard University who was also in the process of developing the rating system. And that was my background. I was one of the researchers at Harvard and we decided to join forces and released Envision in 2012.
00:02:02
Speaker
And you started in design and architecture. What brought you into infrastructure and infrastructure ratings in particular? Oh yeah, well, it was interesting. I was ah originally a a technology person on the design side.
00:02:14
Speaker
ah But back then, sustainability often didn't have its own discipline. So sustainability and technology, we got lumped together. And I really became sort of a passionate convert after that. And then after graduating, i worked in various research roles.
00:02:27
Speaker
And that brought me even further into sustainability and and working with Envision. So what do you see as the value or
International Adaptation and Noteworthy Projects
00:02:35
Speaker
superpower of ratings programs like Envision? Yeah, well, you know, I think it's probably very similar to what you all experience with IS, which is While it is a rating system and you do get a rating and an award, I almost consider that kind of a secondary benefit. The real benefit is in the process improvements.
00:02:52
Speaker
um I know with IS, you know, it's about asking those important questions and starting the dialogue. I 100% agree with that. I'll often talk about Envision as ah a a universal way of measuring things. And we know, you know, you can't manage what you can't measure.
00:03:09
Speaker
So we need to have a consistent way of measuring sustainability and infrastructure tools like IS and Envision can do that. And that allows us to have just much more evolved conversations, much more interesting discussions, debates, and allows us to learn and to take lessons from one project and apply them to another, rather than reinventing the wheel every time we go out and try to do a new project.
00:03:31
Speaker
Roughly how many projects do you have currently under the rating? So completed at verification, we have about 200. There's about one another 150 that are in the pipeline. And these projects are spread mostly across the US and Canada?
00:03:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's definitely where we started. So ah my my best guess, I kind of say maybe
Technological Integration and Future Focus
00:03:53
Speaker
75% US, 10% Canada, 10% Italy, and then 5% in other countries.
00:04:01
Speaker
So we've been growing internationally a lot more in recent years, which is the reason for the the distribution of the percentages. In Australia and New Zealand, most of our projects seem to be roads somehow. We do a lot of other infrastructure, but that's the big one.
00:04:16
Speaker
um I understand that in the US and Canada, a lot of the roads have already been built, so there's not a lot of new roads going in, it's mostly resurfacing. Without roads, what are the major infrastructure projects that the Envision rating is rating currently?
00:04:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. Now, I mean, not a lot of new roads, but we still have new roads. So that we we have roads in the system. I would say ah the numbers are, have shifted a little bit, but roughly 40% of the Envision projects are water, 40% are transportation, 10% are energy, and then 10% are miscellaneous other, including environmental projects.
00:04:53
Speaker
So on the water side, we have clean water, wastewater, and stormwater flood management projects across all three categories. We have you know water treatment as well as water distribution.
00:05:06
Speaker
On the transportation side, yeah, we have roads, we have bridges, we have a lot of airports. So we see a pretty ah wide distribution. Now on energy, certainly we have renewable energy, solar farms and wind farms, but we also have co-generation plants and and more efficient energy generation.
00:05:26
Speaker
Interestingly, so far, we've not had any energy transmission. So I'm really interested to to see about getting some of those. And we haven't had any data centers yet, which I believe IS has. So I would love to see how we
Sustainability Strategies and Organizational Collaboration
00:05:39
Speaker
would apply on one of those.
00:05:41
Speaker
Yeah. Have you noticed an uptake in water projects because of climate change? Well, actually, water was our first adopter of Envision. And I think maybe because of that, like you said, in the water sector, sustainability is already really ingrained into what they do.
00:05:59
Speaker
So maybe they don't always think about it as sustainability, but when you talk to you know water professionals about environmental, social, and economic impacts, they're like, yes, obviously.
00:06:10
Speaker
you know So I think um it it was an early it was an easy ah threshold ah in the early days with water. And what we've really seen is in more recent years, transportation ah increasing. Like I mentioned, we've seen airports become a really quick ah growth a sector and then now more and more energy projects as well.
00:06:34
Speaker
What are some of the more esoteric projects that you've done? Well, you know, you you never would have guessed it, but the very first project was a fish hatchery in Alaska. um
Closing Remarks
00:06:45
Speaker
And, you know, if if you had said, what's the first project going to be, right, that would not have been my first guess.
00:06:50
Speaker
But it was a really amazing project. Couldn't have asked for a better one. And this is the nature of it is obviously recreational fishing in Alaska is a big part of the tourism industry.
00:07:02
Speaker
And people go, but they deplete the population. So they have fish hatcheries that produce fish and they put in the river so that people can fish and maintain the fish populations in a sustainable way.
00:07:14
Speaker
So it was a really exciting project. And that one was all about water recycling and energy efficiency. We also have aquaponics projects. farm in Hawaii ah that used the tool.
00:07:26
Speaker
um you know Sadly, I didn't get to go to the awards ceremony for that one. i was going to say, I imagine you have to visit that project all the time. Yeah. yeah So we have a few that are maybe a little bit outside ah the box. And really, many projects have some element of them that is kind of new and creative and innovative. It's one of the exciting things about sustainability is that we're trying to do things differently. So even if it's a project that you might think of as being very conventional, there's usually something in there that they're doing that's a little bit new. And maybe it's not physical. Maybe it's on the governance side or the funding side.
00:08:01
Speaker
um But I do enjoy all the the variety of projects that we see. And I understand currently you also have projects around the world, Colombia, Guatemala, China, even Ethiopia.
00:08:12
Speaker
How do you navigate adapting those the tool to those regions and that may not have the same resources, may not have some of the same products and and tools as the U.S. and Canada?
00:08:25
Speaker
What we've seen is because Envision, probably like IS, because it has to be sort of universal to all different types of infrastructure across, at least in the you know North America, across all the the US and Canada and different climates and different political geographies.
00:08:40
Speaker
It has to be fairly high level and and performance driven ah rather than prescriptive. So we don't get into the nuts and bolts of which materials you have to choose or ah which technology you have to use.
00:08:53
Speaker
And I think that does help in the international application because it it allows a little bit more freedom and flexibility on the professional side to show how they are doing better and how they are achieving the goals.
00:09:07
Speaker
um But there's pros and cons to everything, right? So the more general you are, the less specific. ah It puts a little bit more responsibility on those going through the system to then provide that.
00:09:19
Speaker
I think sometimes people would like to just be told what what we want them to do and then do it, right? Yeah. Well, one of the things we hear, especially here in New Zealand, is that sustainability tools seem to them to be country-specific, I think especially around the social issues.
00:09:37
Speaker
So with your international projects for Envision, what what makes sustainability work across those different regions and cultures? The approach that Envision takes is is often to say that the value of the infrastructure has to be a marriage with the the wishes and the desires of the community that it's serving.
00:09:56
Speaker
So there's a lot in Envision about understanding the community, understanding their needs and their history and providing solutions that address those. So I think that's maybe where the flexibility is is greater for international application because yes, while we may have different cultures and different ways of doing things, we're all still a human beings.
00:10:16
Speaker
And you know as long as we're applying that same approach of trying to understand the community and what they want and serving them in the most sustainable way, Envision can flex.
00:10:28
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. And speaking of which, you have a project in Ethiopia, a community daycare project. And i checked that out, and I saw that it is very much built to the local standards with more traditional methods of construction as well.
00:10:41
Speaker
um Can you talk about that project a little bit and how that fits in with Envision? Yeah, and I really love that project. This is the early early is early childhood education Ethiopia nonprofit that is building this school.
00:10:57
Speaker
And it's a good highlight of how we're constantly learning ourselves. So right off the bat, initially, this would not be a project that we would consider for Envision when we say it's a school, because we don't do buildings, we don't do you know internal spaces.
00:11:13
Speaker
But in this case, when we talk to the project team, they're really more like external pavilions, you know, open air spaces for the teaching. And it's a campus, really. So it is ah a little bit more like infrastructure than buildings, maybe a little bit in the gray area.
00:11:28
Speaker
And ah just like you said, they're using all of these local materials, ah traditional building techniques. They're serving these these young children who were previously sort of being taught and in something that we would maybe describe as a shed.
00:11:45
Speaker
And now they're going to have this new campus. They're going to use solar panels and renewable energy. There's no air conditioning. It's ah cat rain capture and water. So it it really checks all of the boxes that we would say of like, wow, what a sustainable project.
00:12:00
Speaker
What a project that serves the community and helps. um But what they found was when they applied a tool like Envision that says, okay, now look at the environmental studies and the climate assessments and the this study and that study.
00:12:14
Speaker
They said, well, we don't have, we don't have that. And they really struggled to meet the requirements. And so we had to go back and and talk to ourselves and say, okay, our our system, which is supposed to rate sustainable projects, is not working for this project that is clearly sustainable to anyone.
00:12:34
Speaker
ah So what are we going to do about that? And It inspired us to create our, what's called our TAP program, the technical assistance program. So rather than creating a a different version of the tool that would, you know, have lower standards, ah instead what we've done is we've worked with universities and have them teach them and train them on Envision and pair the universities with these projects in either small communities or economically stressed communities
00:13:08
Speaker
and have the universities help the projects with things like documentation studies, climate assessments and things. It's great experience for the students. it It helps kind of the the smaller communities see, you know, what we're talking about and why it might be beneficial to have these types of documents and resources.
00:13:26
Speaker
And i'm really excited about it. And on ISI side, there's there's no cost involved. We do it all for free as part of our our mission as a nonprofit. um So it also is is something that gets us excited, you know, in the morning as well to to help out with these types of projects.
00:13:42
Speaker
That's really great. It must be really interesting to see that kind of older technology as the same time that you're working on projects that have the most up-to-date brand new technology as well.
00:13:54
Speaker
How have you seen that kind of work over time um working in infrastructure? What have you seen? have you seen it change or have you seen the focuses change over the years? Yeah, it's been really interesting. So I've been doing this about, gosh, 15 years now.
00:14:09
Speaker
And one thing that was interesting, so the first version of Envision that was released, we never said embodied carbon, because at that time embodied carbon, at least in the US and stuff, energy efficiency was something that was a little bit easier to talk about and okay, efficiency in the energy of materials.
00:14:26
Speaker
We've seen that just completely change. um And now, you know, every conference in body carbon, what are we doing about it and everything and and to see the progress on that. Another one has been the concept of resilience.
00:14:37
Speaker
Now, we always had resilience and people knew about resilience, but just to see how much it's changed and how much it's become core. to the thinking and and what we're doing as ah as an industry has been really impressive as well. you know So there's been quite a lot of changes.
00:14:56
Speaker
And the one that i'm I'm most excited about is rather than being about technical solutions, right that these are solutions for communities and for people. you know I've been at conferences where they say, you know rather than describing this as 52-inch water main that has so much you know cubic feet of flow or whatever,
00:15:13
Speaker
It's, hey, this is a pipeline that's going to protect a neighborhood of 300 homes from being flooded. Right. And how we change the narrative of what we're doing. It's all still true. But which facts we choose to focus on and and the narrative that we choose to tell about the work that we do and how it benefits people, I think, is is really exciting.
00:15:32
Speaker
And it changes the ways people think as well about their work and and how they approach it. How do you see that narrative changing over the next coming years? um What do you see is next in that narrative?
00:15:45
Speaker
Well, we in the US are going to go through a little bit of a rough patch with narratives here. So ah hopefully we're we're a blip in the arc of history here. But what we're seeing on our end is having to unfortunately abandon some of the the words and the buzzwords and the things that have become politically charged.
00:16:06
Speaker
But in a way, I kind of welcome that challenge because it brings us back to core values, right? And so we can still talk about efficiency and protecting people and serving our communities and resilience and things like that.
00:16:21
Speaker
It's cumbersome, but ah you know we can focus on values. But you know I think overall, I i think we're gonna continue on this trend of looking at how infrastructure can break down silos and be more integrated.
00:16:34
Speaker
So and we're already seeing it, but transportation is gonna be all about water and energy and energy is gonna be about water and transportation. and we're going to see how these all connect and and what we call multi-benefit projects becoming, I think, the standard ah that everything is going to have to look at. How do you solve four five problems in one? How do you deliver multiple layers of value to a community in every project that we do?
00:16:59
Speaker
I see that as as the future. What are some of the favorite outcomes you've seen over the years? Well, that's maybe i've I've biased myself, right? Cause that's what I love is the multi-benefit project. So I live here in Washington, DC, not far from me.
00:17:15
Speaker
ah There's a water treatment plant that received an Envision Award where they built a regulation soccer field on top of the holding tanks. And it's in an urban area, right? So there's limited space for parks and things.
00:17:26
Speaker
And it's not unique. ah There's you know at least several of these examples that we have, and I'm sure there's more. But now, you know the wastewater treatment plant, which no one would consider to be exactly an amenity,
00:17:38
Speaker
is an amenity, right? And people go to the the wastewater treatment plant to watch their kids play and to have picnics and things and things that you just, you know, we were sold this narrative for so long that infrastructure is dirty, that it's unsafe, that it's just sort of something to be buried or put out on the periphery.
00:17:57
Speaker
And I love that we're bringing infrastructure back, right? And and seeing infrastructure as something that can also add incredible, and not only provide necessary and critical services, which it's always been doing, but also provide these amazing amenities to our communities.
00:18:13
Speaker
Yeah. And I love the concept of, oh, what are you guys doing this weekend? I'm taking the kids to the wastewater treatment plant. You know, again, in New York City, that they have... anaerobic digesters, giant waste digesters that capture methane.
00:18:27
Speaker
And they, at the top, they have a viewing platform and everything like that. And they've actually branded it. So for Valentine's day, you can go and have a romantic dinner on top of the anaerobic digesters and with a view of New York city, of course. Right. So that's the appeal you, you know,
00:18:48
Speaker
You look like you're in a movie and you're you're actually in a wastewater treatment facility on top of some anaerobic digesters. But I love that, you know. To be fair, on our honeymoon, I took my wife to the Paris sewers and I thought it was very interesting, but she wasn't impressed.
00:19:07
Speaker
And you're still together. So yeah, there you go. Well, what are the big picture trends that you see in infrastructure right now? What what are the things that are really going to shape the direction infrastructure goes in the next few years or the next few decades?
00:19:22
Speaker
Sure. Well, like I said, definitely artificial intelligence is in there. Not sure exactly what direction it's going to take us, but it's going to be high on the list of of influencers.
00:19:32
Speaker
um Here in the U.S., the ah related to artificial intelligence, but artificial intelligence is driving huge demand for data centers. Those in turn are huge energy consumers.
00:19:45
Speaker
So we're already seeing ah shift in the focus on the need for more energy generation. And I think a key thing there will be keeping our eyes on the prize of low carbon energy generation, sustainable energy generation.
00:20:00
Speaker
So I see that, you know, we're going to have a shift back to energy generation in a way that we probably in the US haven't seen. And um I'm guessing that that's being replicated across a number of different countries.
00:20:12
Speaker
And then obviously, we have we still have billion or more people in the world who are in in serious need of some basic infrastructure. And how we're going to do that in a sustainable way as a planet, and make sure that that happens is is critical.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah. And you, you touched on this a bit before about how sustainability is being challenged right now. Um, how do you sustain support for sustainable infrastructure in the current climate and how do you see that as the long game?
00:20:42
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and, um, I mean, one, that there's the short answer is like, what else are we going to do? Right. Like we we have to keep fighting the good fight. It's been unfortunate that sustainability has been caught up in the polarization and politicization.
00:20:57
Speaker
Really, it shouldn't be. um when Again, when you think about it, it's about efficient use of funds, about protecting our environment or people, about delivering basic services.
00:21:08
Speaker
This should not be a politically charged discussion, but unfortunately, it has become one. So what we're seeing is that in order to avoid the politics, there's a lot of surface level name changing and dropping of words, but no one's seems to be really fundamentally rethinking their values.
00:21:28
Speaker
So I think there's a ah silver lining despite all of the sort of terrible rhetoric and mudslinging that's going on and that I'm hopeful that sustainable infrastructure will will survive this and we'll be better off on the other side.
00:21:45
Speaker
Yeah, do we do see that, that the principles behind sustainability are still there regardless of what people call it and the the passion and the drive for it is still very much alive regardless.
00:21:56
Speaker
Yeah. Agreed. One of the things we've seen really just in the last year, I'd say, as a response to the politics is a focus on the economics of sustainability and showing that sustainability actually is a net positive and an actual capital gain for projects.
00:22:11
Speaker
um How have you seen that in the U.S. s and Canada? And where do you see how is Envision kind of starting to translate that for people? I prefer to say that it's about value.
00:22:22
Speaker
um because I i think 10 out 10 times the sustainable solution is the better return on your investment. Now, sometimes it can be cheaper too, not always, but it's it's almost always the better value for your money. And that can be where the challenge is ah because we're always strapped for money.
00:22:42
Speaker
um But ultimately we do have to get out of a cycle of trying to build the cheapest You know, we want to build the cheapest infrastructure and and yet have one amazing infrastructure. And those two things just are never going to align. Like if you want good quality things,
00:23:01
Speaker
no matter who you are or what sector we're talking about, you have to invest in quality things. No one wants to waste money, but quality things do generally cost more than cheap things.
00:23:15
Speaker
What's one thing you would encourage people inside the industry or maybe even outside the industry do to really keep that focus on sustainable infrastructure? You know, I'd say so talk to colleagues.
00:23:27
Speaker
There so many cases that where we're in touch with somebody who they're the only sustainability person in their organization, or they think they're the only sustainability person within their organization. And they're trying single handedly to sort of change the tide.
00:23:42
Speaker
So I'd say have conversations with people and find out maybe there's somebody else who's also interested and they're just flying under the radar. but connect up with them, right? And and and start trying to make some progress.
00:23:54
Speaker
You can start small. And in fact, most of the big sustainable organizations that I know, when I talk to them about how they got started, almost always it's something pretty small.
00:24:05
Speaker
um And so there's ah there's kind of a two pronged approach, right? You kind of need somebody at the senior level, to give you some leeway and some sign off. So you need like a champion at the at the C-suite or somewhere around there.
00:24:19
Speaker
But then you need people in the middle who are just have the energy and the interest to talk and get people together. ah So depending on who you are, you might be you know half of that kind of magical equation that then transforms an organization or a company to become more sustainable.
00:24:37
Speaker
Absolutely. It doesn't matter what department they work in, people are interested in sustainability now. It's good to build that team throughout the company, throughout the organization. Yeah. Absolutely. and And not only is it, it's almost necessary, I would say. We have we have organizations that they put their finance department through the Envision training so that when the project budgets come through, they understand why, right?
00:24:59
Speaker
um They have maintenance people who come so that they understand why are they being asked to do these things? Why is this important? bring them in as part of the conversation, right? Sustainability is all about inclusivity, about all of us working together, um not just saying, oh, you know, you need to do this because of this or that, and you know.
00:25:19
Speaker
So bring them in, make them part of the fold and and grow grow the cause that way. Great. Well, thank you so much, Anthony. It's been great having you on the show.
00:25:30
Speaker
Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you for listening to Infrastructure Connections. Please take a moment to follow us wherever you get your podcasts and we want your feedback. Leave a comment down below to let us know your thoughts or drop us a line at the Infrastructure Sustainability Council.
00:25:47
Speaker
Stay tuned for the next episode of Infrastructure Connections.