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Gangs, Prison Guards & Lies: With Dr. Brittany Friedman
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Author, Sociologist and USC associate professor Dr. Brittany Friedman joins Unsolicited Perspectives to dismantle America’s prison-industrial complex in this explosive episode. Author of “Carceral Apartheid: How Lies and White Supremacists Run Our Prisons”, Dr. Friedman uncovers how prisons weaponize racism, from guards orchestrating gladiator fights to hidden memos proving systemic dehumanization. Learn how white supremacist groups like the Aryan Brotherhood gained power with state backing, why gangs like the Mexican Mafia became tools of division, and how incarcerated Black activists risked everything to resist. Dr. Friedman shares chilling firsthand accounts, including a former neo-Nazi’s awakening, and reveals how prisons profit from trauma.
Prison reform, racial injustice, systemic racism, carceral apartheid, and prison gangs—this episode leaves no stone unturned. This episode not only highlights the grim realities of carceral apartheid but also ignites a call for transformative change and social justice. Whether you're an activist, a scholar, or simply someone who cares about dismantling systemic oppression, this powerful dialogue will empower you to question the status quo and join the fight for a fairer future. #prisonreform #socialjustice #SystemicRacism #JusticeForAll #breakthecycle #podcast #unsolicitedperspectives
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Thank you for tuning into Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. Let's continue the conversation in the comments and remember, stay engaged, stay informed, and always keep an open mind. See you in the next episode!
🌐 Website: Dr. Brittany Friedman Official Website (https://brittanyfriedman.com/)
📧 Email: Reach out to Dr. Brittany Friedman at brittany.friedman@usc.edu
📸 Instagram: (https://www.instagram.com/curlyprofessor/)
📚 Amazon: "Carceral Apartheid: How Lies and White Supremacists Run Our Prisons"
Chapters:
00:00 Welcome to Unsolicited Perspectives 🎙️🔥💥
00:49 Meet the Truth-Teller: Dr. Brittany Friedman 🗣️🔥
01:58 From Skeptic to Scholar: Dr. Brittany’s Path to Truth 🌟🔍
06:01 The Genesis of Prison Gangs: Power, Politics, and Survival 🕵️♂️⚔️
12:50 We Don’t Want Martyrs”: The State’s Blueprint for Silence 🏛️🌀
21:41 Gladiator Fights: The Grim Spectacle of Racial Division 🥊⚠️
32:52 Echoes of History: What the Past Reveals About Today’s Prisons 📜🔗
41:47 Chicago’s Unseen War: Prisons, Gangs, and the Irish Mob’s Hidden Role 🏙️🔥
43:02 I Heard His Cries at Night”: A Neo-Nazi’s Awakening ✊🕊️
46:02 Guards as Puppet Masters: Manufacturing Racial Enemies🚨⚖️
49:09 From Cells to Solidarity: When “Enemies” Become Allies ❤️🔄
54:25 Can Hate Be Unlearned? The Battle for Minds Behind Bars 🔄🌍
59:20 Reimagining Justice: The Blueprint for a Fairer System 🛠️🌈
01:03:46 Life Beyond Bars: Alternatives to a Broken System 🚪✨
01:06:09 Hope is Resistance: Fighting Back with Joy and Evidence 🌟❤️
01:09:41 Your Turn: Will You Stay Silent or Speak Up? 🖋️🌟
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Transcript
Introduction to Prison System and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Today we dive into the hidden and truths of society's darkest corners, the prison system. Get ready to be informed, challenged, and inspired as we uncover the stories that demand attention.
00:00:11
Speaker
Let's get it
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome. First of all, welcome. This is Unsolicited Perspectives. I'm your host, Bruce Anthony, here to lead the conversation in important events and topics that are shaping today's society. please Join the conversation and follow us wherever you get your audio podcast.
00:00:37
Speaker
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for our video podcast and YouTube exclusive content. Rate, review, like, comment, share. Share with your friends, share with your family.
00:00:47
Speaker
Hell, even share with your enemies.
Dr. Friedman's Background and Motivation
00:00:49
Speaker
On today's episode, I'll be interviewing Dr. Brittany Friedman. She's the author of Carceral Apartheid, How Lies and White Supremists Run Our Prison Systems.
00:01:00
Speaker
We're going to be talking about prisons, racism, institutional racism, but that's enough of the intro. Let's get to the show.
00:01:15
Speaker
So as I said at the top, I have Dr. Brittany with me. She is a sociologist and associate professor at USC. She's an expert in politics and the dark side of institutions.
00:01:25
Speaker
She's also the author of Carceral Apartheid, How Lies and White Supremists Run Our Prisons. Dr. Brittany, it's my pleasure to have you on my show. I am really excited for the conversation that we're about to have. And I know my audience is really going to learn something.
00:01:42
Speaker
So thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you so much, Bruce, for having me. And, you know, I'm excited to to have this conversation. I've been looking forward to it.
00:01:53
Speaker
Well, I'm glad that you're excited because what we're going talking about is is very, very important. But I want to give the audience a little background on you. So can you start from the beginning for me? Can you share a little bit about your background, your upbringing and what kind of shaped your path?
00:02:11
Speaker
Yes. So it just depends on how far back, like we could go back to like baby Brittany or I'm sure people don't really want to know that far. So I will, I will start like, you know, let's start in high school, high school. I would say college is when I, I really was able to come into my own in and nurture my, my curiosity. Yeah.
00:02:33
Speaker
you know i too also I grew up having a lot of unsolicited perspectives. This is why this is perfect because I used to get in trouble for pointing out things that i noticed about people, especially if I pointed out something about an elder, i would get in trouble. for like ah for commenting.
00:02:53
Speaker
So, it you know, I really thrived, I think, in school because I went, especially when I got to do my PhD, because the PhD is all about asking whatever question you want and answering it. And you get you're actually incentivized to go on this independent journey to figure out, you know, different aspects of life. And I've always been curious about what people hide or what institutions try to hide. it a and when I read something, just like completely calling BS on it.
00:03:26
Speaker
And that's how I ended up studying in California prisons. I was like, this is just, anytime I'd read something put out, especially by law enforcement, I'm like, this is completely fabricated. i can just tell.
00:03:39
Speaker
and I need to go and investigate this.
Investigating California Prisons
00:03:44
Speaker
So what you're saying is you have a ah natural ability to see through the lies. And because you can see through the lies, you kind of fixate on, well, let me figure out what the real truth is. Let me figure what the right answer is to this question of whatever it is that they're trying to feed me that I just don't believe.
00:04:04
Speaker
Yes, I would say we all have of natural inclinations, especially to our personality. And I've just always been naturally curious yeah and trying to, you know, also bring some levity because there's been times in my life where I have uncovered things either in my personal life or professional life. And it just kind of took me under because it was so dark.
00:04:28
Speaker
And that's why, as we were kind of talking a little earlier, like I try in my regular life, have a sense of humor about my, about just as I go about my day, because if not some of the things that I have seen and what I write about in Carceral Apartheid, like it it just, it has put me in a dark place.
00:04:48
Speaker
And i realized that's not why I'm here. Like, i I'm here to, at least for myself, I'm good at i'm very observant. I'm good at noticing patterns and in finding holes in what people say or what institutions say. And so that is that doesn't mean I have to absorb what I'm seeing, though.
00:05:08
Speaker
I can observe it and make sense of it and write about it, but I don't need to take it on so that I personally am not carrying the weight of what I see. Okay, so when you say all of these things, it kind of makes sense.
00:05:23
Speaker
Because my next question was going to be, what kind of can you share what inspired your focus on intersectional race, politics, and and the prison system? But just those three topics in and of itself are always lending us to questions and digging deeper and more.
00:05:40
Speaker
But can you just explain to us specifically, was there an instance where you were like, this is where I'm going, especially in your PhD program, that you would go and focus on these three things?
00:05:52
Speaker
And what has your journey kind of been like as you've been navigating and asking these questions of these three very, very important subjects? Well, in graduate school, I first realized that I just, I have to study California prisons because I was just kind of flabbergasted. That's such a weird word, but it really was like, I was like, flabbergasted.
00:06:18
Speaker
So I was flabbergasted. I was like blown back when I think, when I saw that in California, I'm like, wow, wow. All of the four major prisoner organizations that I had been reading about in society, learning, you know, are all founded in San Quentin within a few years.
00:06:39
Speaker
Well, San Quentin and Tracy, I would say. within a few years of each other. And I'm like, how did this happen? That's an anomaly. that is It is that like all of them, and then they become these huge nationwide groups that become you know criminalized in various ways and then become what we consider a security threat groups.
00:07:03
Speaker
and what what prison officials label as prison gangs. So I'm like, this I just want to understand how did this happen? Because one, why California? Two, why so many different groups and the andg groups that are divided along racial lines?
00:07:20
Speaker
And then I'm like, this is, so just you see, like, as for my like curious mind, I'm like, just like going down the whole asking all these questions. Then I'm like, also all of them have very clear Political rhetoric, like clear political rhetoric, goals.
00:07:37
Speaker
So for me, I'm like, okay, I know that governments are saying these are prison gangs and we should be scared. But I'm like, no, one, this is an organization and you, we should think of them as organizations. And if you study the history of an organization, you can actually see a lot more because you're not blinded by the criminal label.
00:07:58
Speaker
And because of that, I was able to then really show, at least in my book, and as I kept going, I'm like, oh, the criminal label is this powerful tool of dehumanization, of subjugation, and of of basically legitimizing, torturing people in isolation units.
00:08:21
Speaker
And I wouldn't have gotten there if I started, I just believed what I read from the
Evidence of Systemic Racism
00:08:27
Speaker
outset. like I just believed it. I had to question everything and then deconstruct it. And I'm like,
00:08:33
Speaker
Oh, these are all these groups started as social movement organizations with their particular goals and ideologies. And then prison officials and and correctional officers got involved. And that journey, you know, that like it started as a student of just me asking questions, asking to make people to make introductions for me when I started to like get into building community in the West Coast. ah I was ah in grad school in Chicago.
00:09:02
Speaker
and So I'm like, okay, I got to go out to Cali. I have a family in California here like now, and I did, but still I'm like, okay, I got to take these frequent flights.
00:09:15
Speaker
yeah You know? Right. Yeah. So was that, okay. So as you're doing your research, just you saw this kind of nexus point where it's just this California, San Quentin prison, where you're seeing like all of this start.
00:09:29
Speaker
But there is no connection that you personally had to California. It was just you doing research and through your research, you stumble across, wait a minute, this is a nexus point. This is where all this kind of starts.
00:09:43
Speaker
Well, it so it's, it's kind of, it's both. it It is. So it it intellectually, it was just, it was, it was the path of like questioning and trying to understand.
00:09:57
Speaker
all of the points, right? how How do these organizations form? Why did they they kind of like transform or they ah why did they begin as social movement organizations and then the state takes such an interest In their affairs and and put them against each other in all of the racial battles. So that really that was my my questioning.
00:10:21
Speaker
But then personally, you know, I do have family that migrated out west as a part of the Great Migrations. out here and and that becomes a big focus in my book, which i I didn't know it was going to be a big focus in my book until I start talking to people and doing interviews with people who were a part of the original Black Panther Party, who were a part of various Black movements.
00:10:49
Speaker
and then ah incarcerated or not. And so I realized like that this journey with their families, especially from the deep South and witnessing the Klan and racial violence is is a huge,
00:11:02
Speaker
sactor And then I'm also thinking back about my family as I'm talking to my, you know, my parents know I'm going out there. I stay with family sometimes while I'm out in California when I was doing my field work. And they're like, yeah, like, you know, our family moved out there because of the war or because of similar reasons why people left Mississippi and went because I have family from Mississippi. And so it's just there were these connections. Yeah.
00:11:30
Speaker
that I think we find being a part of the African-American diaspora.
Intentional Cruelty and Racism
00:11:35
Speaker
Like there are these like connections of our families moving and migrating to try to flee racial violence or to looking for new opportunities or trying to create joy, like all these reasons why people are moving.
00:11:49
Speaker
around the country. And that became a big thing as I'm doing this, as I was doing my work. Cause I'm like, Oh, that my family did that too. And I have, I have family all over California and some, I don't really know. That's also a part ah part of this, that the more I spend more time in California, it's like, I live in LA and I have learned from my dad. Like I have so much family in Los Angeles,
00:12:14
Speaker
A lot of my family's in Compton, but I don't know them. and And that's something we can talk about, but it's because of like different splits in my family. Like, you know, I don't know them well. I have family in Bakersfield, like the Bay. So it it's it it's been a journey.
00:12:30
Speaker
There's been the personal journey mean i as well as like the the other aspects ah and they overlap at times. So you've brought up your book.
00:12:40
Speaker
So let's talk about your book, your book, ah Carceral Apartheid, How Lies and White Suprematists Run Our Prisons. You shed light on hidden mechanisms within the prison system. What are some of the most startling things that you found during your research, particularly regarding institutional racism?
00:12:59
Speaker
I think one of the most shocking things is that, you know, we know, i feel like as African-Americans that people in positions of power are doing things that are, I would say that like cruelty is the point.
00:13:15
Speaker
and that like are incredibly like racist and there's an intention behind it. But I was surprised to find written written evidence of this. like We know that people are having conversations. you know In the modern era, people are sending emails, but they might be protected.
00:13:33
Speaker
But I was finding in the archives, like, correspondence and internal memos between prison officials, between officials from other states, and just very just directly saying what they're going to do. So one quote that kind of just, like, shocked me, and I read it a few times. I'm going to paraphrase it, but an official in California was like, you know, we we just don't want to create any martyrs.
00:14:00
Speaker
And I was like, well, what are you doing? Exactly. That was my, what you, your financial expression was mine. When I read that, I was like, what are you doing that you are creating martyrs?
00:14:14
Speaker
Okay. So these are the types of things that would, I don't know if i should have been surprised, but I was, because i I was looking at someone who wrote this, like for instance, in the sixties and they're writing it down, like we should not create martyrs. And it adds even more evidence to narratives that I feel like we have been saying for generations about how institutions are intentionally harming our communities and that it's not, they're not collateral consequences.
00:14:45
Speaker
Another example is just written evidence of officers arming not self-identified Nazis who went on to form the Aryan Brotherhood, like saying like, well, i don't really, we don't really want to have to, you know, take a particular black incarcerated person to court for something that they did. So we just need you all to take care of it.
00:15:08
Speaker
and like and And so there's different quotes I i showed throughout the book of these this this type of environment and racist intentionality. And it's so overt that I think that it was just shocking to find very concrete evidence of it versus me like making the argument and i and I'm using all of my amazing interviews, but someone could come to me and say, well, you're only you're taking it like only from the perspective of incarcerated people.
00:15:40
Speaker
You know what i mean? Like I've had critics try to say that to me like, oh, it's only incarcerated people. And I'm like, yeah, but we should believe incarcerated people. And they're like they're like, yeah, but it's only from the it's away from one side. And then I'm like, no, look here.
00:15:53
Speaker
Look at this memo dated, you know, March 1st, 1965. The prison official said, and I quote, do do do do, do, do, like that. And so that has been very powerful. And it's why I'm so happy that I i did a project.
00:16:07
Speaker
I decided to, you know, bring the archives to life. I decided, I was like, I have to, I have to use the archives because then you can use people's own words against them. I think that's, I've learned that, you know, you can't, instead of making unfounded accusations, like, okay, it's like, a it's why I love the old, like black Twitter, you know, like black Twitter invented that meme of like miss you.
00:16:33
Speaker
That's my, fit that's like one of my favorite memes of all time. And it's, and it's because of what I study and what I find interesting of like, yes. Yeah. Is this you? Yes, it is you.
00:16:45
Speaker
You said that, you know? So when you talk about they don't want to make any martyrs, what would be labeled as gangs now, you're saying we should look at them more as organizations.
Historical Tactics and Protection of Officials
00:16:58
Speaker
They're not trying to make Black martyrs, which are essentially... are becoming, don't know, and an epidemic during sixties with the assassination of Malcolm X, with the assassination of Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers. And these people are becoming martyrs. So this is, this is direct to what's happening outside in the world saying, look, we're not going to have it in our prison systems.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. It's a direct correlation. And they're saying as much. And they're specifically saying, we don't want to have martyrs within the prison system because that is what their goal is to prevent any incarcerated Black person during this time period. And the period I look at is the 50s through, I would say really to like the 2000s.
00:17:46
Speaker
But i I pay most of my attention at the in the fifty s sixty s and seventy And, you know, they they're worried because oh there is this growing movement and a synergy between resistance on the outside and the Black freedom movement on the outside and resistance on the inside.
00:18:06
Speaker
And that's where they don't want to create martyrs. They don't want to have... a a a you know someone who is akin to mark to Malcolm X, which we know the prisons did have. right They did have ah within. And there is coordination happening like it because prisons are porous.
00:18:23
Speaker
And the prison officials know this. And that is why they are going to great lengths to prevent ah knowledge about what they're actually doing and how they're torturing people. And it's why i I talk about how clandestine control and the hidden nature of control is so important for us to focus on because This quote is doing so much. It's also it's showing evidence as well of of secrecy, of like intentionally hiding what you're doing so that the public won't be upset and so that incarcerated people won't have a person to look to to you know be upset because of the violence against them. And we know that that failed because unfortunately several self-identified Black militants were murdered by the Department Corrections.
00:19:17
Speaker
so It's in secrecy, but it's also kind of brazen as well, right? If they're if they are writing down memos that are crossing back and forth between officials in different states, it is it is they are doing this and and they don't care about being caught because what there's no repercussions for what they're doing.
00:19:40
Speaker
There's, yeah, there's no there's no repercussions. It's why our, i mean, many people point to how law enforcement on the outside are incredibly protected by police unions and by the courts.
00:19:54
Speaker
But I would argue it really is correctional officers and prisons and prison officials that are the most protected arm of the criminal justice system by courts, by politicians,
00:20:09
Speaker
attorney generals in every state, you know, the attorney general, one of their chief positions is to defend departments of corrections against lawsuits.
00:20:20
Speaker
Like, and most people may not, may may or may not know that unless you've been involved in a suit or like trying to bring a grievance, but it is like they have, you know, this the state, the it's the one of the highest attorneys or the highest attorney in the state is protecting them.
00:20:36
Speaker
And so it's incredibly difficult to get information out. And what I was able to access was spread across various archives, but again, it's archival material.
00:20:50
Speaker
If you try to FOIA a Department of Corrections now, many times, like they're they're just not subject to FOIA in the same way as other government agencies because they will claim it's it it's a matter of public safety.
FOIA Challenges and Gladiator Fights
00:21:04
Speaker
If they give you documents and it's not, no, it's a matter of, you don't want, you're worried about people rising up and like rebelling if they get the information in the FOIA.
00:21:17
Speaker
I think that's what the code word for public safety. It's like, we don't want protests. You don't want Ryan. and So it's a matter of public safety. If we release these FOIA documents to you about what's happening right now.
00:21:30
Speaker
Hmm.
00:21:39
Speaker
Well, speaking of riots, there was a major one in 2007 and involved a large number of black and Hispanic inmates that showed that there was a powerful indicator of deep racial divides within the prison system.
00:21:55
Speaker
How do you interpret this event in the context of the long history of the racialized control of American prisons?
00:22:04
Speaker
since prisons of their Since the inception of prisons in the 20th century, like in their contemporary form, correctional officers have engaged in divisive racial tactics, including setting up people to be in gladiator fights that are in different racial groups, because then that creates vendettas.
00:22:25
Speaker
right like That creates a vendetta. Wait a minute. Hold on. Yes. You telling me that they got gladiator prison fights and they've got black versus Hispanic and white versus black and Hispanic versus white and all that stuff.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yes. Many of these big riots, that's how they start. It's because officers set them up into fights and then the fight takes place and then a riot breaks out.
00:22:55
Speaker
And, but all you see on the news is like race riot. It's like, no, it's not. No. Historically when there's been a race riot, it it is, if you trace it back,
00:23:08
Speaker
You can trace it to officers and their corruption and setting up people to fight each other because it's a very effective tool of social control, especially in an in an enclosed cage environment.
00:23:21
Speaker
Like imagine having a vendetta against another person and you're like enclosed. And there's cages everywhere, right? That we think about vendettas that happen in the street.
00:23:34
Speaker
Like this, this cycle is growing and it builds and builds and officers know that because it has worked time and again. And there's so many times in my book where I am showing that, you know, especially black leaders are quite effective at trying to organize people across racial boundaries for this reason, because they know that if they are able to organize people, these setups are less effective.
00:24:01
Speaker
because they're building solidarity. and But that's right when that's when the officers strike. Anytime you see like peace accords historically in prisons in the United States, that that typically it's it's incarcerated Black people that are at the forefront of these peace talks,
00:24:19
Speaker
Officers, they use their tactic of the gladiator fights and you know, it is a, it's a real problem. I, a student of mine actually sent me today.
00:24:31
Speaker
There's a headline out. I need to read into it, but the headline she sent me is that gladiator fights, there's allegations of gladiator fights happening at juvenile detention facilities.
00:24:43
Speaker
And it's it's a headline from the Washington Post in that officers, of course, are the ones setting up the fights. And usually, at least in California, they place bets on them.
00:24:55
Speaker
That's been one of the main allegations. like They're literally sitting there placing bets on people's lives. And and i I talk about that ah toward the end of Curceral Apartheid because someone I interviewed, he survived a gladiator fight.
00:25:09
Speaker
He survived his setup. So it's like... it's It is a systematic problem. It's not a one-off issue. Wow. A prison fight club being instituted by...
00:25:24
Speaker
The guards. Wow. To create racial division. So in, in your studies, you said San Quentin was like this point of where all these organizations grew.
00:25:38
Speaker
Can you tell me what those organizations were and, and what racial lines is attached to each organization? Yeah, absolutely. And I think I'll kind of start as to like why San Quentin too.
00:25:52
Speaker
You know, San Quentin has like a very dark kind of evil history, which I trace in chapter two called adjusting problem inmates, because that's what they argued that they were doing in this Orwellian
Experimentation and Racial Targeting
00:26:06
Speaker
way.
00:26:06
Speaker
They're like, we're readjusting people. But what they meant was, for instance, the chief surgeon of of San Quentin from 1913 to 1951, he did over 10,000 experiments on incarcerated men under the guise of adjusting them and fixing them and claiming that they were behavioral problems and that he was going to use his eugenics needs you know, psychiatric science to fix them.
00:26:36
Speaker
And so this is why like, it's like when we talk about the formation of these groups that comes within like a decade later, it's like, this is the environment that incarcerated men were surviving within.
00:26:49
Speaker
So if we think of it in a functionalist perspective, it's like, yeah, it makes sense that you would form an organization. And especially during that particular time in American history, that your natural allies would be your racial your racial group.
00:27:03
Speaker
when we're talking about 50s and 60s. so he retires in 1951. And then a couple of years later, prison officials are like, well, we need to create a committee ah for the treatment of intensive problem cases.
00:27:20
Speaker
And it really, you know it transforms this notion of who is a behavioral problem, who needs to be isolated and treated. and fixed. And who the who is are people who are Black, who are suspected of being aligned with the civil rights movement at the time, or aligned with the Black freedom movement.
00:27:41
Speaker
It could be, you could you could even just have like, say your loved one gave you a newspaper that's like, has a speech maybe printed, or like a an African-American newspaper, that's enough to get you sent to the adjustment center, which is ends up being what they create Once this basically, you know, eugenic surgeon retires, they create adjustment centers in his place.
00:28:04
Speaker
yeah And so as that's going on, that that insanity, right, from the state is happening in the background. Incarcerated Black people are being disappeared into these adjustment centers.
00:28:16
Speaker
They were take removing people of other racial groups, but but specifically really targeting the Black population and political activity. At the same time, officers are very concerned because the the Black population is increasing in numbers. first Before we get to like mass incarceration, the Black population was already increasing in California, like significantly during this period.
00:28:43
Speaker
And so they start to, you know, ah plot these setups. These setups of incarcerated black people where they would put them on the yard with a bunch of Nazis and Because this is like pre-Aryan Brotherhood, which formed in the mid-60s. They consolidate.
00:29:03
Speaker
But this is pre-Aryan Brotherhood and put them on the yard with a bud with a big group of Nazis and a lot of people who identify Chicano. and just let them be annihilated. And then sometimes shoot.
00:29:17
Speaker
Because people are fighting at this time. You have, legally, they had the right to shoot at them. But they would shoot only at the Black people. And that's how you get murders because they, there's that's, and that's what I mean when I say there's a setup and then a murder, it's it's taking place in that way. That's the pattern or the playbook.
00:29:36
Speaker
And so, As this is going on, the areary in brought the what becomes the Aryan Brotherhood grows stronger because they are aligned in this way with corrupt correctional officers.
00:29:47
Speaker
And prison officials are turning a blind eye to this. So they are getting stronger and stronger politically, economically, through smuggling. And the only way you smuggle things it is through officers. like That's the only way that you you really truly get enough bulk that if you're going to start mass selling is through officers.
00:30:08
Speaker
even though they try to it seem like it's otherwise, like it's loved ones, it's officers. So, They formalize themselves into the Aryan Brotherhood in the mid 60s San Quentin, in this environment.
00:30:21
Speaker
And ah you know the Mexican Mafia ah in ends up forming in Tracy, actually, like in Tracy, a different prison in California, but gains a stronghold in San Quentin because San Quentin is like, it's the main battleground, at least between the racial groups.
00:30:40
Speaker
It's one of the main epicenters. So the Mexican mafia unites the Southern half of California ah for people who are of Mexican, Mexican American or Chicano descent in a California prison.
00:30:56
Speaker
If they're from the Southern half, they are aligned with the Mexican mafia at were otherwise known as Southerners or Souranos is how so the term in Spanish here.
00:31:07
Speaker
And they become aligned with the Aryan Brotherhood. It's a very, you know, it becomes like a very natural alliance of the time because the anti-Black racism is so high.
00:31:20
Speaker
And also because officers are very, they're not too dumb, right? Like theyre and they understand basic politics of war that like it's easier to annihilate your enemy if you make allies with other groups that hate your enemy.
00:31:37
Speaker
It's like the age old. And so this is what I am arguing that this is a this this entire scene that I have set from the then basically like eugenicist surgeon leading to, you know, the the formation of ah groups in the wake of these setups and fights.
00:31:56
Speaker
This is why it's this is why California, when we're talking about the emergence of the Mexican mafia, Aryan Brotherhood, and then the Black Guerrilla Family, which is the consolidation for incarcerated Black people who are you know basically putting their cliques together in one organization.
00:32:19
Speaker
Because in the words of a co-founder I interviewed, he said, I'm paraphrasing, you know, He used the word incumbent. I remember that verbatim. He's like, it was incumbent upon us to organize ourselves in face of these attacks by the prison administration and then also from other inmates.
00:32:37
Speaker
And the other inmates, he's talking about yeah those who were allied with the white supremacists or the Mexican mafia. Wow. Okay. So I have couple of different follow-up questions.
Prison and Societal Racial Dynamics
00:32:50
Speaker
One, it seems like the prison system is absolutely mimicking what's going on in America during that time, because you had the FBI and COINTELPRO that COINTELPRO was originally used to fold up the Klan. They turned it on Black power groups, such as the Black Panther Party, ah the Nation of Islam, things of that nature. So it seems like The prison system is mimicking real life or not real life, the outside world.
00:33:18
Speaker
and Would you agree or disagree with that? Yes, a hundred percent. It was actually 19, I think it's, it's 1958 is when I was able to find the oldest bulletin that was like first identifying a black militant group for segregation and surveillance. And it was the nation of Islam.
00:33:41
Speaker
And, and the MO is called, you know, special procedures for Muslim inmates. And then it's outlining how the nation of Islam is. They were saying that it wasn't a real religion, that they were anti-white, that they that they were actually racist against white people. So it's like all of the language we are hearing right now in society that is attacking the EI, that's attacking people who are simply stating just facts, truths about race, how it functions in America.
00:34:12
Speaker
The same exact thing was happening to incarcerated Black people if they were found to be a member of a group that was promoting anti-white, that's what it was called, anti-white racist ideology. And then they were they were they were surveilled.
00:34:28
Speaker
It would follow them in their file if they were ever released. That was a key part is follow them into society. And ah and while during their incarceration, they would be removed and isolated into solitary society.
00:34:41
Speaker
cells in adjustment centers. And so I think there's a parallel to today that are obvious, but then a key point is, well, what is the current administration gearing up to do? Because if the first step is to is to call all of our major social movement gains reverse racism against white people.
00:35:03
Speaker
Then the next step, at least according to my book, is to expand the surveillance infrastructure, begin spying on populations of color. And then the final step is removal and containment.
00:35:15
Speaker
And that's what my book shows is the historical pattern. So it is, it's like when I'm watching it happening, like, okay, You know, history does repeat itself. And so we, we gotta, as the original use of stay woke, that's actually what it means. And I'm forgetting who he was. I forget. I wish I had his name off the top of my head.
00:35:35
Speaker
Do you remember his name? The man who said stay woke, like that where that's traced back. It's like, this is what he was talking about. And he was talking about paying attention when things start to shift and like, you might be subjected to state violence. And he was like, stay woke.
00:35:50
Speaker
That's like where the quote comes from originally. I know it wasn't, I know Childish Gambino used it, but I know it was, he wasn't the original quote. Yes. It's like from the day. Like it's like our, it's like from our elders.
00:36:03
Speaker
That's where that, and that's what he was talking about. He's talking about what we're seeing now. Yeah. I had that debate with somebody earlier this week about woke and what the definition was. And they're like, well that's not what it means. i'm like, no, that's exactly what it means. But so I'm curious,
00:36:21
Speaker
Chicano Mexican, Mexican mafia, if it had not been for the interference of prison officials and white supremacist groups like the Aryan Brotherhood or before they were the Aryan Brotherhood Nazis, would there been conflict between the black prisoners and the Hispanic prisoners in the prison?
00:36:44
Speaker
If it wasn't for this outside interference? I don't think there would be. And the re and there the evidence for that is one, historically on the outside in California,
00:36:55
Speaker
Law enforcement and white civilians have been in their like white supremacist actions have been very influential in stowing division between black and brown neighborhoods.
00:37:07
Speaker
Like that's that's something that's like left out when you see on the news, it's like, oh, there's fighting in black and brown neighborhoods in l LA. And it's like, but historically, how did the fighting the fighting start? Historically, it started because white supremacist civilians who were backed by the LAPD and local police would go into black and brown neighborhoods and literally beat the, I don't know if I can curse, I'll say beat the crap out of in assault.
00:37:35
Speaker
people of Mexican descent and and people that were African and American in their communities and create infighting, like create fights. That's where it starts. Same thing in California prisons.
00:37:46
Speaker
The same, it's it's it was mirroring because it's the same time period too. When all of these beefs are starting between neighborhoods on the outside, a lot of these beefs are also getting carried from the prison into the neighborhoods.
00:38:01
Speaker
So because of the the what the hit the Aryan Brotherhood and officers have done in fueling a racial divide between two big populations that you might think potentially could be aligned instead.
00:38:16
Speaker
You know, when people get out, it's like they're they remember, no, I'm I'm anti black. I'm on this side. and it carries into the beefs because in reality, you know, as things progress historically, many of many groups are actually running the street.
00:38:32
Speaker
But things change here and there, like power changes hands, but for several years and decades, prisons are running the streets. So this what the Department of Corrections has kicked off They're the real cause.
00:38:47
Speaker
They're the real cause of what we see in the prison and what we see in neighborhoods. And so that's, that's something that I, I argue also, like when we have conversations about reparations and mass incarceration and child slavery and Jim Crow in the U S like,
00:39:03
Speaker
we need to include this conversation about what prison officials and officers have done in creating racial vendettas and racial warfare for decades. prison that We need reparations for that too, because that has spilled over into our community for decades.
00:39:21
Speaker
Wow. Wow. Okay. So for your book and for your research, you interviewed a lot of former gang members.
Influence of Gangs and Police
00:39:30
Speaker
What personal stories or insights helped you understand the impact of these oppressive systems on both individuals and communities involved? Like you kind of hinted to it that these beefs that are starting in prison are carrying out to the streets.
00:39:46
Speaker
And that's kind of the reason why we are having these racial wars. I don't know too much about California, but I know in Chicago, Big, big problem on the streets with black and brown just going to war. And it starts with the Mexican mafia infiltrating the drug trade in Chicago.
00:40:09
Speaker
And so, yeah. So what were some of these stories or insights that these former gang members told you that kind of just stuck with you? Well, something I will say first about Chicago too, it's like, we don't ever hear about the and invisible hand of the Irish mob and the fact that for years, so this is what I mean about how there's in my book, there's key historical patterns that I argue we see across in the United States.
00:40:41
Speaker
And so in, in Chicago,
00:40:46
Speaker
For injury, the Irish mob and Chicago, ah the white members of the Chicago PD have been heavily aligned. And that like secret, not so secret, but i I'll just say secret, well kept, like, you know, under the radar alliance has been crucial for Chicago colonies.
00:41:08
Speaker
It has been crucial for funding of particular like public works in Chicago. And it is crucial to the drug trade in Chicago. Because it did who really runs the drug trade in Chicago?
00:41:20
Speaker
The Irish mob actually ran a considerable size of the drug trade with the assistance of Chicago but PD. But the only reason, oh, there's infighting. It's like, well, but if you look at the bigger picture, that's why very I'm very, I'm always interested in like zooming out, just zoom out, kind of take the perspective of like a bird, like zoom out, look, and then think about, okay, who benefits from what I'm looking at?
00:41:45
Speaker
Well, in Chicago, who benefits when there's infighting between the the different street groups of color? So same thing, you know, in and it's like, you shouldn't say that out loud.
00:41:59
Speaker
I'm like, that's what I mean. Like, I've been told that my entire life. You should not say that out loud. But it's very, I just think to myself, but it's very obvious. Like, doesn't it bother you to just like see that and then, and then, and then like move forward like you didn't see it.
00:42:13
Speaker
Some people aren't bothered because and we'll get into that later, but some people aren't bothered because it doesn't really affect them. A lot of people, when it doesn't affect them, they say, yeah you know, what's the difference?
00:42:23
Speaker
But the difference is, is destroying communities. And then it actually does affect you.
00:42:37
Speaker
So was there any story from these former gang members? You talk about the one incumbent. It was incumbent upon them to join together. Were there any other stories like that, that really you just, it either touched your heart or broke your heart or created an, elicited an emotion that maybe you didn't know that you would feel during this process?
00:43:01
Speaker
You know, I think my interview with Andrew, which is in chapter three, in ah in that chapter, I call it White Above All, that interview kind of, it shook me. shook me when I first interviewed him. We interviewed over the course of a few days because i a lot of my interviews are very long like that.
00:43:21
Speaker
But, you know, Andrew's story was interesting. So he actually, he he grew up, In his childhood in Chicago, he was white. He identified as like a poor white. He said he was working class and he had friends across like racial and ethnic groups. And then his family splits up and then they they moved to California. So there's again, this story of migration, like many people in my my book, they they came with their families, like a lot of people that moved to California during this time period.
00:43:51
Speaker
And, you know, Angkor, after a ah series of events, he ends up incarcerated. And the story that he told me in particular about what solidified for him that, that joining a white premises group and being in having that like Nazi affiliation and he had all the tattoos all over his arms and hands when ah we were interviewing was he he witnessed a a horrific setup that happened where
00:44:24
Speaker
sir a young man who grew up in a black neighborhood, he just, when he was incarcerated, he thought, you know, he's naturally, he was gravitated, he gravitated toward the black population.
Trauma and Ideological Transformation
00:44:35
Speaker
it was a huge no-no for everything that we had described. You know, cause it's just, it's not just a California story. This is also, this is a West coat. This is actually, that's not even true. This is really, it's an American story. Cause I can, we had time. I'd go into so many other examples of what I'm about to say right now across like other state prison systems.
00:44:57
Speaker
So basically this young man that Andrew sees, he's like, oh, like he had a bad fear and he's like, well, this is not going to end well for him. Like somebody should tell him, you know, and you we kind of see these scenes in movies, <unk>s right? When watch movies about prisons where there's like people who so take it upon themselves to kind of school someone yeah and try tell them like the way of the politics.
00:45:22
Speaker
And so similarly, Andrew describes Someone tries to tell the young man and he's just like, no, oh it's cool. Like, these I'm just like, I'm just talking.
00:45:33
Speaker
I'm not doing anything, which there's certain things you're not supposed to, like you're take food from another racial group. You're not supposed to take things like that, very strict. So basically, long story short, this young man gets like brutally assaulted because officers set him up to be brutally assaulted to make an example of him.
00:45:56
Speaker
for crossing the racial line. And it it tells you two things. One, it tells you that people, it's not just that people are coming in with with racist attitudes and then they're gravitating towards white supremacist groups. It tells you that the officers are taking an active role in in policing people of their own racial group who do not fall in line.
00:46:21
Speaker
And so Andrew, as as and as I'm interviewing him, he's up, he's pacing because he was reliving it as we were talking. And I had to do different strategies to like bring the energy down because i could he was reliving it. And he just kept saying, he's like, I never wanted that to happen to me. Never wanted that to happen to me. Never wanted that to happen to me.
00:46:42
Speaker
He's like, he's like saying, you know when i I ended up in Pelican Bay, which is the super max here, where you're in your cell 20 today, he's like, I couldn't even, I couldn't sleep.
00:46:53
Speaker
I used to hear his cries at night. do And that was like years late. And so that just, it tells you like the the level of how like trauma is embodied and how white supremacy Like, you know, in racist intent, there is an embodied nature to it where it's through experience that people come to see and accept a particular ideology as true.
00:47:22
Speaker
Because over time, he was like... like you know, over time I came to believe it was true that we were superior. So he told me were superior. It was us versus them because I saw not just just that, like I saw the fights that would happen between, and then I participate in the fights.
00:47:39
Speaker
And so it's very much, I liken it to how someone describes war, right? Like someone who's a veteran bri and described bodied
00:47:52
Speaker
versus them that you take on when you're fighting someone on the basis of them being different than you it's like it stays with you and you feel you need because what andrew told me when you know the end of our interview i asked him i said we'll see you now you're volunteering like I see behind you, like all those men behind you, there are different racial and ethnic groups.
00:48:17
Speaker
Some of them were aligned with groups that if you were inside, you wouldn't be allowed to stand next to them. And if you got into it, you would try to kill each other on sight.
00:48:28
Speaker
And he said, ah just, it I will never forget what he said. He was like, well, out here, we don't need it. And I was like it's like, it was like just a simple phrase. It was like when I saw the presidential memo of like, we don't want to create martyrs.
00:48:42
Speaker
Like there's these key moments in writing my book when the puzzle piece, the missing piece would just be added. And when Andrew said to me, I'm like, yeah, that's what it is. It's like, dad's that that's just, that's it.
00:48:58
Speaker
It is initiated intentionally. And that's the world that they have to live in in order to survive. Yeah. Yes.
00:49:09
Speaker
So with Andrew now. And during that interview, because you said during the process of being incarcerated, he started to believe it. And now he's able to just be around people from different walks of life and and not immediately get into it because he doesn't have to.
00:49:27
Speaker
Does that mean that his ideology changed back to what he was before going into prison? Or does he still hold some of these beliefs that he is a part of the superior race?
00:49:40
Speaker
So for Andrew, you know, I do, but some people, obvious like some people definitely when they are, when they get out of prison, they do bring with them their white supremacist ideology. And it just continues on, you know, because there's what's happening in the prisons. It spills onto the street and it's a cycle.
00:49:59
Speaker
But with Andrew, what I found interesting is that during the later part of his incarceration, he got it involved with an organization for lifers and the organization on the outside was you know, run by formally incarcerated people, but in community with formerly incarcerated people that had served life sentences and that were released for various reasons.
00:50:25
Speaker
like in terms of having their sentences commuted, like all these different things that happened. So basically he started to receive like letters from who were part of this program on the outside that that understood his experience, that were trying to help him in terms of like, this is what you need to do to prepare. Like, this is how, like helping him with this case, helping him with various things that, you know, are are do or die for you when you're in a cage.
00:50:56
Speaker
And you have a life sentence. So he was saying, he's like, you know, they didn't have to help me. They didn't have to help but me. Like he's like pointing back to someone. He's like, he was like when he was on the street and when he was in inside, i like he was a blood.
00:51:12
Speaker
Like they're like a sworn enemy of us, but he'd have to help me. He helped me figure out, you know, but if I get out, where am I going to live? Where am I going to go? Like what job? And he's like, they gave me a job.
00:51:24
Speaker
And he's like, they're my brothers now. And and in saying that, he said it again. He's like, I realized I like, we don't need it out here. Like all that stuff, like he's called it stuff. He's like, that's like,
00:51:36
Speaker
the prison like that's like your basically your prison jacket like that's what you're wearing because you have to and you and you do legitimately come to but over time you know how could you not because we're embodied human beings so but He was like, they help me. They're my brothers. And that's what I do now. Like, that's the job they gave me when I got out.
00:52:00
Speaker
My job is i I help other men who are inside that have life sentences. And i read I write them letters. I help help with like programming. So it just, it was the the power of community really.
00:52:15
Speaker
I think in Andrew's case, the power of community, of being a community with men who shared his life experience, even though they were on other sides of the of the battle. it was There was something very healing about coming together around this notion that they were once a part of a prisoner class.
00:52:34
Speaker
Like they were all prisoners. first and foremost. And that's quite frankly what the Black Guerrilla family, as I show in my book, that's what they were trying to organize for.
00:52:45
Speaker
And that's why they became criminalized as a gang, but they were a social movement organization. And that's what I show. It's like they formed as a social movement organization to protect black people from all of these setups, from isolation, from and everything that the the administration was doing.
00:53:05
Speaker
And they also were very successful. but and organized racial boundaries. And as I said earlier, every time they they they were able to evoke this like prayer consciousness ah amongst people, then that's when officers with the gladiator fight.
00:53:22
Speaker
that's And you're forced, right? You have to do the fight or you will get beat to ah by the officers if you don't fight. Or they might shoot at you and say, oh, they're fighting on the yard so we shot.
00:53:35
Speaker
You know, know so it's that's that's kind of the through line in my book through Andrew's awakening and through what incarcerated black people had been fighting for and and arguably what made them the most dangerous.
00:53:52
Speaker
It wasn't just that they were trying to protect themselves. It's that they were trying to get the racial groups to see what was happening and it's to see that the the prison officials were against each other.
Engaging Resistant Audiences
00:54:04
Speaker
and And that's what made them dangerous. ah So Andrew makes this transformation because even though they're on the inside and they're against each other, unfortunately, they're part of this brotherhood fraternity of being incarcerated.
00:54:24
Speaker
How do we get people that are listening and watching that were turned off because we said white supremacy like 75,000 times to emphasize that's what's going on in these prisons.
00:54:41
Speaker
Or they're turned off by the fact that we're talking about what, quote unquote, they would label as criminals. What can we do to reach these people to make them care, to make them stop, listen, absorb what you're saying?
00:55:00
Speaker
and really try to go about to make change.
00:55:05
Speaker
What I would say is the first thing I would say is that, well, if law enforcement and is on the right side of history, why did they make it so difficult for us to access information that should be publicly available?
00:55:23
Speaker
I feel like that's kind of like me tossing a softball. That's like a nice one. Like, that's just start with this very basic premise. And think that, you know, I'm an educator, right? So when I, when I try to, I ask people, even the students as I'm teaching, when I teach about prisons, I ask students questions that are very simple, but them to do the critical thinking to like think through think through it for themselves.
00:55:55
Speaker
This way, I'm not like preaching and I'm not not embodying the same sort of controlling energy that I'm describing.
00:56:06
Speaker
Because for me, it's like, I do truly believe in freedom. And I have hope that when people really think for themselves, like how Andrew did, right? Like you see for yourself and you think through it for yourself. You're like, oh, that's like, that's like, oh, can I say a curse word? it Yeah.
00:56:27
Speaker
Like that's all bullshit. Like it's bullshit. You know what I mean? And so i I think it's why being able to, if people are are able to talk at have conversations with people because then they start to break down their own, they realize that they're just in like a big illusion. And, and that's how I approach things is, you know, if somebody comes at me all like, well, you said this, this, and this, and these are just violent criminals. it's in debt And then I would say, well, you think about the fact that like, you know, there have been this many officer setups where the officers are setting people up to be the,
00:57:10
Speaker
rape or to be killed, do you think that that meets the definition ah of a violent criminal? And usually people will say, well, yeah, but it's like one-offs. then I'll say, but but what if I were to tell you that it's actually so bad that the Department of Corrections has been sued more than once by brave families who've lost loved ones because of it.
00:57:35
Speaker
It's like just slowly breaking it down. People realize like, and then i i try to say things like well don't you want to be free like don't you want your mind to be free you say you believe in like freedom america right but that's you what your mind to be free or do you want to be just like plugged into some bullshit but like i just try and talk to people and then if they don't want to hear me i'm like okay go be gone stay asleep i try but I go be gone.
00:58:08
Speaker
I go be gone. um yeah I talked to you. I tried. I just held that. You're still asleep. Like in the matrix, like you still, you took that by. Okay, good.
00:58:19
Speaker
And I'm over here Morpheus. no going here You're going over there and just go get or get plugged right back in. That's cool. but I feel like we that's how we also protect peace.
00:58:33
Speaker
You do what you can. Can't force people. people I think Andrew shows that people have to come to the conclusion for themselves. People have to be free themselves in in sense of like like people who are racist. like They have to free their own mind from that shit.
00:58:51
Speaker
That's what I like. They have to free themselves. We can't do it for them.
00:58:57
Speaker
Free your mind and the rest will follow. That's what En Vogue said. oh
00:59:04
Speaker
Okay, Dr. Britt, what changes do you believe are essential for dismantling these oppressive systems and what state steps can policymakers and activists take to create a more just and equitable institutions?
Reform and Resilience
00:59:19
Speaker
The first thing is we have to abolish the Prison Litigation Reform Act. And a lot of people don't know what it is and that's on purpose. So yeah, it's on purpose because The Prison Litigation Reform Act, basically, it came about in 1996 at the federal level.
00:59:39
Speaker
And that law made it so that incarcerated people had to exhaust the prison grievance system in their institution and within the Department of Corrections before they could move forward and sue.
00:59:54
Speaker
for all of the heinous things that I have described and more. And what that did is if you look at a map of it, I'm gonna pull it up for myself. So as soon, so leading up to that passing, the reason this was passed is because the prisoners rights movement, which really sees its heyday from like 1970 to about like, you know, the the early ninety s
01:00:24
Speaker
it was It was gaining traction and they were having success. Like courts were on some key areas ruling in favor of incarcerated people because the evidence was just so strong.
01:00:36
Speaker
What this law did is it slammed the courtroom door as like prison policy calls it. If you look at prison policy as an amazing and it's free to access prison,
01:00:47
Speaker
infographic which shows like it shows the lawsuits are like rising rising rising and then when that law happens it just completely goes down so it just slammed the door and made it it so that so people have to ask their abuser and go through their abusers policies before they can try to say like go before a court and say this is what the department did to me and i think a lot i think it's it some public doesn't generally know about. like Like, prisoners' rights advocates obviously know because it slammed the door on their lawsuits.
01:01:22
Speaker
And, but it is, it was just such ah an effective tool and it's at the federal level. And I think that if that's abolished, then that opens back the door for the courts to hear these cases because,
01:01:41
Speaker
You know, law enforcement doesn't reform itself. We see that with police officers on the outside. Anytime we have big changes, it's because of some ah egregious action or murder. And and there's a successful lawsuit.
01:01:56
Speaker
And there's like, there's force, there's force change also at, at the, you know, the, the circuit court level. That is something that this prevents for incarcerated people who are victims of law enforcement violence on the inside.
01:02:10
Speaker
And so it's like, if we really champions for police violence, like we have to get that abolished. Everybody should know about that law. Everybody i should know law exists. And that would be, that's my, that's my like, you know, hill that I climbed up on and I'm standing on top of it. I'm like, abolish this.
01:02:33
Speaker
And why, why did they institute this law, this policy? Because there was just too many lawsuits. and but They were just getting flooded. Incarcerated people were flooding the court system with lawsuits and winning because they, they were able to get the evidence like out to their attorneys, because that's something that, you know in my book, I show how draconian the system is and how successful it is at silencing people.
01:03:00
Speaker
But one thing that you still have access, even if you're in solitary is your attorney. Like you could still, and so if you can get things out ah to your attorney, you could still get, ah get your case before there your attorney can get your case before a judge and to get things moving.
01:03:17
Speaker
And this, this has made it incredibly difficult for attorneys to do their job on behalf of their clients when there's no other way. How else are you get the prison system to move?
01:03:30
Speaker
They're not going to fix themselves. Right. no They don't want to be regulated in the way that they should be. They shouldn't even exist. that's That's like... Hold on. You're talking about getting rid of the prisons altogether?
01:03:44
Speaker
Well, I think that there's other alternatives. Like but there's other alternatives for people who who have caused harm in their communities.
01:03:55
Speaker
We see other alternatives, especially in other countries in Europe on how like alternatives to what we think of as prison United States. It's like, we're just feeling grateful truly to think like that's the only way.
01:04:10
Speaker
And it's just not true. And is it even effective? Like, do we even feel safer? No, because crime doesn't go down when the when our incarceration rate goes up.
01:04:22
Speaker
and And people don't feel safer. and does the And does something like, if someone did something egregious to a community or to a person, Like when they come out of prison, did, were they rehabilitated like that? Or, or did they suffer all of these extreme abuses that I'm documenting, which literally just like destroys people.
01:04:43
Speaker
So then where, are what are we left with? So yes, I think, you know, as, as it, as our prisons stand in the United States, they shouldn't exist.
01:04:54
Speaker
they don't They're not self-justifying. We have to do something different. And you know I stand by that because there's proven evidence. People have been for the past several years studying alternatives that are successful. It's just our prisons make too many companies so much money.
01:05:12
Speaker
They make state governments money through different types of fees and fines that in our economic system, there's no incentive to get rid of them. There's no incentive to change to another bull for the punishment system.
01:05:28
Speaker
Yeah. I can't remember if I saw it, whether Norway or Sweden, Denmark, it's one of those places where their prisons were just basically like dorm rooms.
01:05:42
Speaker
And they send their violent criminals there, but dorm rooms and people don't reoffend because you treat them like human beings. I always said that you could take a nonviolent person.
01:05:55
Speaker
If they go to prison, they have to be violent in order to survive. So you've just taken a person who was nonviolent and turned them into a violent person. So, yes, it's a broken system.
01:06:08
Speaker
Dr. Brittany. Before I leave you, before you leave us, is there anything that you would like to leave us with? Because you've given us so much already, so much to chew on, so much that we learned from this conversation.
01:06:23
Speaker
Do you have anything else or any any parting words for me and my audience? I would like for people to leave with a sense of hope despite all of the darkness that we described.
01:06:38
Speaker
yeah And the reason I say that is because this system of control of carceral apartheid, it's designed to kill the human spirit and it's designed to thrive off of chaos And that's what we're seeing now in our society.
01:06:55
Speaker
And so it is our job to document what we see and to maintain the evidence of what we see so that it can be transformed, not so we can absorb it and become overwhelmed because that's what they want.
01:07:09
Speaker
So I would like to leave people with hope and and think about, look in your own families, in your own communities, or if not, look to history, even yourself. We are resilient people.
01:07:21
Speaker
We have survived so much and we continue to organize, create, innovate, build joy in spite of this. So if we hold that vision, we can continue to create the alternative unities that we've been doing for generations, right?
01:07:37
Speaker
Every generation has people who, who they left the system and they created their own community. And i i think that hope is what we have to maintain because our hope, that's the currency, move us forward. Like true hope, true joy,
01:07:56
Speaker
That allows us to resist and then create alternatives. And that's what I would like for people to be left with and think about what can you do? Like, what gift do you have that you can bring? Because we all have gifts. Otherwise you wouldn't be born.
01:08:10
Speaker
Everybody's born gifted. That's why I don't like that phrase gifted and talented or whatever. That's just like some co European colonialism rhetoric actually, but we won't get into that because I can be long-winded, but yeah.
01:08:23
Speaker
because Because I don't agree because I am gifted and talented. no yet but I mean, like, you know, giving the right watering, if you think of human beings like plants, which i do because I love plants.
01:08:35
Speaker
So it's like with the right watering, right soil, everybody's gifted. Everyone has the particular gift. And that's what I'd like to leave us with. like like What is your gift? Right. For you, Bruce, obviously, like you're nectar.
01:08:48
Speaker
like an ear and intellectual and you use your voice. I also use my voice and I'm an observer. I think that everybody has something. So. I love that. Dr. Brittany, thank you.
01:09:01
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you once again for coming on the show. This was a really dope conversation that I know i definitely learned and I know my audience will definitely learn from it as well.
01:09:12
Speaker
So thank you for coming on the show and just blessing us with your knowledge. Thank you. I appreciate you, Bruce. And you just, you know you brought out my like joking side, even in the midst of this. So thank you.
01:09:25
Speaker
Hey, we talk about serious stuff. Would you got to have a laugh every now and then smiles and cries. That's what Denzel said in training day.
01:09:34
Speaker
Not at LA refs too. I got to keep throwing them out there. Once again, I want to thank Dr. Brittany for coming on the show. And enlightening us with all of her research and her work into how the prison systems are institutionally racist.
01:09:53
Speaker
Some of this stuff I learned about today, kind of blows my mind. i didn't know they were having gladiator stuff in prisons. Like, I don't know. Most of y'all might be too young remember. But there were these movies that came out back the day called Penitentiary.
01:10:07
Speaker
penitentiary one two and three where they had like boxing fights and and fights and stuff like that in prisons i didn't really think that stuff was real come to find out this stuff was real like it came from somewhere ah was it wasn't like somebody came out there let's have gladiators in prison no it came from somewhere and it came from real life and that's just absolutely crazy when you think about it but Before I wrap up, i before I conclude, I just want to extend something out to you guys. I want to ask you guys a question or leave you with a question.
01:10:37
Speaker
If our prison system is intentionally dividing and dehumanizing people, how can we as a society continue to turn a blind eye to it? Today, Dr. Brittany basically broke down everything that was happening and gave us a stark reminder of how these systems are actually broken.
01:10:57
Speaker
and how they're functioning exactly how they were designed, right? Like they're broken, but absolutely functioning exactly as they were designed.
01:11:09
Speaker
And stories like Andrew give me hope, that just because there's division that's being created in these prison systems doesn't matter doesn't mean that necessarily it's gonna reach to the outside, but we still gotta find a way to fix the system so that these divisions are created in the first place.
01:11:29
Speaker
Because as Dr. Brinkley pointed out, The streets follow prison. So what's going on in prison happened out in the streets. And I mean, anybody that's grown up in any project or any rough area, trailer ah homes, whatever they have, any poor area, you know, what's happening in prison is going happen in the street. There's a whole television show based on this.
01:11:52
Speaker
ah the The mayor of Kingstown, watch that show. What happens in prison determines what's happening in the street. That's real life. So once again, i pose a question.
01:12:04
Speaker
If you didn't know about this before, you know about this now, what are you going to Are you going to turn a blind eye to everything that's going on?
01:12:15
Speaker
Or are we going to work towards building a society that's rooted in justice and not division or no longer be rooted in division?
01:12:28
Speaker
That it be rooted in justice. And let's remember, prison is ah punishment. but you're supposed to be rehabbing who you are as a person. You're supposed to be getting better.
01:12:41
Speaker
And as the conversation between me and Dr. Brittany alluded to, nonviolent people can go into prison and they become violent because you have to adapt to your environment or you get swallowed whole.
01:12:55
Speaker
So are we creating more violent people by sending them into prison? Yeah. And without the programs necessary to help them have a better life when they get out.
01:13:07
Speaker
What do you think? You think that violence just stops there? freedom Once again, what happens in prison freedom over fame goes to the streets. So you might not, you might think that this does not affect you, but it absolutely does.
01:13:21
Speaker
So just think about it. Really, just think about it. And on that note, I want to thank you for listening. I want to thank you for watching. And until next time, as always, I'll holla.
01:13:37
Speaker
That was a hell of a show. Thank you for rocking with us here on Unsolicited Perspectives with Bruce Anthony. Now, before you go, don't forget to follow, subscribe, like, comment, and share our podcast wherever you're listening or watching it to it. Pass it along to your friends. If you enjoy it, that means the people that you rock will will enjoy it also.
01:13:56
Speaker
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