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Authentic Networking and Using Your Voice
160 Plays13 days ago
Candace Williams, security leader, joins the show to talk about what ACTUALLY matters in networking and professional development in cybersecurity. No BS, just real talk from someone who's lived it.
George K and George A talk to Candace about:
- Why your internal barriers are often bigger than external ones
- The truth about transactional networking (spoiler: it doesn't work)
- Why chasing certs and being a “paper tiger” might not get you the job (and what will!)
- Why preparation beats perfection when opportunities arise
Candace drops some serious wisdom about building authentic relationships vs just collecting LinkedIn connections. Whether you're starting out or leading teams, this episode has something for you.
P.S. And no, she won't look at your resume if the first time you reach out is to ask for a job
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🇨🇦 We’ll be setting the stage on fire with the opening keynote at SecureWorld Toronto on April 8th. And…we’ll be closing out the show with our signature event, the Cyber Pitch Battle Royale!
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Transcript
Speaking Up: Adding Value to Conversations
00:00:00
Speaker
One of my mentors, who's still a mentor, always told me to speak up and use your voice. Never go into a room and and you're in a position of either authority or you have something you can say and you stay silent.
00:00:11
Speaker
So he always said, speak up, um because I would. I go in a room. It could be an assessment, and it's an outbrief. And they go around, and I don't say anything. And it's not to say stuff just to say stuff. But there is truly something I could say to add value. He said, never stay silent. Just speak up. Use your voice. um And don't be afraid of that. So that was something that stuff stood out to me. So anytime I can think and have an opportunity to say something that adds um Valuing a conversation, I'm going to do it. um And I'll brief and brief weekly meeting, whatever it is, I'm going to use my voice.
Podcast Introduction: Human Side of Cybersecurity
00:00:48
Speaker
Yo, yo, yo, this is the show. This is Bare Knuckles and Brass Tax, the cybersecurity podcast that tackles the human side of the industry. We are talking trust, respect, and everything in between. I am George Kay with the vendor side. And I'm George A, a Chief Information Security Officer.
Guest Introduction: Candace Williams
00:01:04
Speaker
And today, at long last, we have the one, the only, Candace Williams. We've been talking about getting her on the show for a long time. The stars have finally aligned. She's here and she brings the fire. We had the extinguishers nearby and I'm glad we did because ah this was just amazing.
00:01:22
Speaker
She is arguably one of the most technically diverse and experienced individuals we've ever gotten to interview on the show. And we really didn't get into any of the tech stuff. This was all about good career advice. This is about being a good person. And this was about the guidance that I think a lot of folks are looking for, especially if they're mid career and trying to understand how do I get to that next level? Can this is crack code?
00:01:45
Speaker
Very respected cyber leader, highly experienced military veteran and just like content creator extraordinaire. She and I were talking before taping and she's very honest, like she does it for herself. She's a creative person at heart. I think you can hear that. And
Building Career-Advancing Relationships
00:02:01
Speaker
ah even though she says she's an introvert,
00:02:04
Speaker
She's got a lot of advice here for how to get out of that shell and talk to people and build those relationships that are going to get you to the next stage of your career. So enough of us. Let's turn it over to Candice.
00:02:18
Speaker
Candice Williams, welcome to the show. Awesome, awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Glad to be here. Yeah, George and I were talking, and I think we have been more or less talking about getting you on the show since season one, and we have finally gotten our shit together.
Effective Networking: Beyond Transactions
00:02:34
Speaker
The stars have aligned. And and you are here. You are a huge deal, Candace. Thank you. um No, this YouTube. I use YouTube. You guys are the deal.
00:02:46
Speaker
So we're going to just jump right in. So we're talking about networking a lot and not the information packet networking, but the professional networking. so Candace, my question to you, this is the bare knuckles portion of the show, which is kind of the airing of grievances. What do people, in your opinion, get wrong about networking and their own professional development? And I want to frame it two ways. I think there are sort of the external adversaries, you know, the system, and then there's the stuff we do to ourselves, the internal adversaries. Right. So I'll give that to you and and you do with it what you will.
00:03:25
Speaker
External
Overcoming Networking Barriers
00:03:26
Speaker
and internal adversaries. Okay. So I'll start with the internal adversaries when it comes to networking and I'm going to use this lens because I am an introvert. Most tech professionals claim introversion all the time. But when I would go to networking events, I would be petrified to go inside and talk and connect and build relationships. I mean, seriously, I would literally Like be in my car, like, should I leave? Should I stay? Like, what am I going to say? what So for me, I was my biggest barrier. And it wasn't until I kind of gave myself this, it was like a quota to just talk to one person, like just go talk to one person and just introduce yourself. Then you can go and let it be that. That was when I kind of start feeling like it's a little easier and people really just want to get to know you. um And so as I did that, I kind of built it up and like, I go and talk to more people. And then now I'm i'm good, right? Because I,
00:04:20
Speaker
recognize people's people and they just want to connect and they just they just are who they are. um I was younger than I was in my 20s right now I've had way more experience in my career so I don't care I'll talk to anybody doesn't matter but that was a barrier at that time was just me internally being afraid thinking that people make look at me some kind of way or you know not realizing we all put our pants on one thing at a time. I mean, I had a friend that told me that when I would get nervous about meeting execs or meeting like people who have big titles, they'd be like, yeah, Candace, we all put our pants on the same. Just calm down. like It's okay to talk to them. So that was it for internal. External, I would say, um I don't like to be,
00:05:04
Speaker
um asked when something's like transactional like I don't like that feeling when someone comes to me and they want to meet me and they want to get to know me or whatever and they send me their resume or they just kind of ask me something or just want something from me without getting to know who I am. I think those days are over. Really just trying to you know drop something in someone's inbox and just kind of, yeah I don't want a job.
00:05:27
Speaker
Candice, so great to meet you. Can you get me a job at Raytheon? Yeah, don please don't do that to me. I will ignore you and I'm 100% honest, I'm gonna ignore you. I will i may give you a thumbs up, I may point you to a wreck, but I'm gonna ignore it. So I think that's one of people's biggest mistakes is is I would say waiting until they need something and not having time to build a relationship with people and then wanting something and that's how you network. um Because it's not transactional, right? i think Yeah. Like I said, those days are over. So get to know me, ask me a question, pay attention to what I say, what I talk about, like do that with anything, like just be open to it. And yeah, it's not a transaction. though Yeah. I think the common misconception with the mentor, quote unquote, is that that person's going to help you find a job. And that's like just for the listeners, right? That is a sponsor.
00:06:21
Speaker
But a mentor is something else, and that's a two-way street. if If they're going to help you with something and they're going to ask you to do something, they might give you homework. I think the best mentors do, like, please go consider this or do it. And you have to go do it. you can It's not just like avail yourself of their career and experience. And OK, cool. ah Just find me a job.
00:06:44
Speaker
And you said something though, George, sponsorship is different. Like I take sponsorship seriously because if I'm going to put my name on you and I'm going to put you in front of somebody else, you need to be doing your thing already, right? Like I've been, you know, sponsored and supported and I've supported others, but I'm not going to put my name on someone and, you know, have that tie to you and your trash or you don't represent yourself well, because that means that's going to take my name and my brand. So.
00:07:14
Speaker
sponsorship is a, it's a sensitive thing in my opinion. I get so many people trying to bother me for references, trying to bother me to like get them hooked up with this or be a referral for that or same thing. And you build, you Candace are amazing at building a professional brand. Like you should honestly, if you haven't written a book about it, you should.
00:07:36
Speaker
um But that's you put in years of effort in that and you're putting that on the line. And it's like, I have think i think some people, especially if they're more thirsty, they don't understand that. They can't look at it from your perspective. And I think that's kind of, would you not think that that's probably part of the problem?
00:07:52
Speaker
I would because they don't, they don't understand that. They don't know branding. They don't know again, how reputations can go like that. Some of you are young, right? You spend all your time building it up and it could be one thing that just knocks it all down and you spend again more time trying to fix it. So yeah, no, they don't think so. I don't think so.
00:08:10
Speaker
so So, I got to ask you, I'm going to shift gear a little bit. um I took a study of you because I love researching our guests, and um you're amazing in many, many ways. I'd say that to a lot of guests, but I was like, for you, I was like, holy shit, can I work with her? Can I poach her somehow?
00:08:25
Speaker
um
Air Force Experience: Discipline & Networking
00:08:26
Speaker
How did your experience, and speaking to you, like I'm a veteran as well from the opinion army, how did your experience in the Air Force influence the decades of a brilliant career at Raytheon and the communities that you've built? How did it provide that influence? And I mean, you worked in technical roles from day one, but your mentality, in my honest opinion, like as a troop,
00:08:50
Speaker
is effective at the level that I would trust you to lead troops in combat. That place you have the highest regard based on what you've done, what you've put out there, what you've demonstrated. Tell us about your leadership growth journey, man. so First of all, thank you. but I appreciate that. um I would say the Air Force. so I spent six years in the Air Force. I didn't retire. I just spent six years in the military.
00:09:14
Speaker
um but I think from day one, I knew I wanted to be in in some kind of tech role and some kind of computer role, whatever it was. And that was my focus. like my My initial goal for the military was going to school, like really kind of getting myself together. I didn't have you know anybody helping me through high school to get me into college. I didn't have any of that. sort That GI Bill, right? The good old GI i Bill. that's i So I was like, OK, well, I'm going to, yes, I'm joining. Yes, I'm serving my country. But I'm also going to make sure I'm setting myself up for my
00:09:45
Speaker
career. So that's what I did. So the military just taught me to discipline. like when my um When I first got deployed, that's when I just started school. So I literally was in Iraq taking college classes because I had the goal of getting my degree before I finished. So I think I just
00:10:04
Speaker
I wanted to do it, I had the knack for it. The discipline was easy when you go through basic training and you see you have this rigid schedule, like this is who you are, this is what you do. um so think it's just a I don't know, it was a military just, it's kind of osmosis, right? The discipline, at least for me. um But when I got out, I think the biggest thing that I learned was just your network was your network. Like literally every person I met in the military at some level, I'd either still connected with them or they helped me with that next step to get into the, you know, to get into Raytheon and get that first job. So it was just discipline with the military. um I don't know.
00:10:44
Speaker
I don't know anything beyond that one. Yeah. Like discipline. Um, just just just it's the, it's the, it's the, what the, what the military teaches you and empower us with. And then I think you're, what you're saying is you've taken that and by opportunity, by opportunity, you've kind of like manifested this whole thing that you've built. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say to George, like I don't i never wait for the opportunity. Like I,
00:11:13
Speaker
Before I left the military, I said, I want a degree. I want i won at my MBA. I think this is what the next step looks like. so Here's what I think I should do to make sure that they're open. Literally, when the opportunities came, I already did what I need to do to be selected. like It wasn't like, oh, this is coming. Let me run and do this now because opportunity came.
00:11:33
Speaker
Your visualization was on point. Yeah. I always said, OK, well, you know, we didn't have all the career niches we do now back then in 2008. We didn't have that. So I just Google. Well, they had Google. I Google stuff like what do other people outside of the military do? And, you know, business or what does this look like? And that's how I picked like my degree path. So simple and so brilliant. That's what I did. And then I.
00:12:00
Speaker
Sometimes the simple things are the hardest to execute. um I'm sure the listeners are going to tire of me invoking Seneca for like the umpteenth time and even my co-hosties too. But oh gosh you know, luck is what happens ah when preparation meets opportunity.
00:12:18
Speaker
and So that's ah that's still true today. So ah that's a great segue because you talked about you you wanted a technical role, you kind of had that mindset and that goal. And i I really liked what you had put out recently about failure and adapting, right? You talked about sort of just missing the mark on the technical portion of your first cyber interview, but what you were talking about was OK, I totally flubbed that portion of the interview, but they gave me a chance. And when I had that opportunity, I just went full bore like I want you to talk a little bit about that. But I but I bring it up because the context is I think today when I'm talking to young people trying to get in, they really get wrapped around the axle, search this search that CTF this got to be top three percent. They I feel like they're
00:13:17
Speaker
aiming for a level of perfection that is, I mean, you could just keep aspiring to these things and like never get a foot in the door. And at some point you just kind of got to start and not be afraid to fail. But so I want to give you that space to talk about that. It's true. I think I made a post before about people having a million certs and feeling like that's enough. Right. I think before maybe, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight years ago, maybe because, you know, things were still you know It was that time you had to set plus and how to assist, you're pretty much golden. That's not that's not what it is now. so I encourage people to know what you want to do first. I mean, everybody says this. Anything I say, like these are the same steps every professional says. Know your why, know what you want to do, be focused, and get things that actually matter. so If you do decide to
Prioritizing Relationships Over Certifications
00:14:06
Speaker
get a cert, I don't know, you wouldn't be a pen tester and you want to get that certification.
00:14:09
Speaker
Get that cert. Don't do too many things because at the end of the day, it's about the relationships. What industry do you want to work in? Do you know people in that niche? like like You have to build those relationships to be able to get opportunities like that because it's not like you know you get these certs and you're like doing a shotgun blast and applying to all these places and you're going to get selected. It's not that simple. so I think when it comes to the certifications and kind of um um having that yes to be set up for the opportunity, but not letting that be the end all be all. You gotta, you know, kind of do what I did. Like the way I got the interview was because I had a pastor at the time and took me out to lunch with his the first lady and like, I told him what I wanted to do, kind of gave him the spiel, like, hey, here's where I am, I'm scared. and i don't know is I don't know what to do, I don't know what works for me, right? And he was like, I think I might have something for you, right? Like there's these new openings, you know, let me see your resume.
00:15:06
Speaker
And I gave my resume and I got the opportunity to interview, which is probably part of the reason why I wasn't as prepared because I wasn't, I didn't know, I didn't go for it and seek it out. It was something that came to me because I opened my mouth. I had a network. I let them know what I was doing. um And I came from a different space, right? So I will like defense military for me was different than Even if it's still in the same industry, it wasn't the same um work. and It wasn't as technical in that role. It was more policy, more governance, more, yes, audits and software management and license management and like technical solutions, not auditing, which is what that role was, like getting into the system and looking at event codes. and I didn't do any of that. right so That's where the disparity was. It wasn't that I wasn't capable. It was just I didn't have
00:15:52
Speaker
that set of skills just yet. So um it was just, yeah, the foundation, but then my network that got me the opportunity. And so when I got it, I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna show up. I may not know everything, but I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna come dress right. i you know Smile, because I always do this big old Cheshire cat smile that I talk about. It's just me, right? And so we then me and the interviewer, we vibed. He was a great guy, very personable, very open. And he saw that it she may not know, right, the answers that I missed, you know, but she's capable. Clearly, she's capable. um Driven, curious, self-starter. Yeah. I think people underestimate vibes. Facts.
00:16:34
Speaker
I'll throw it as ah as someone who hires people, I'll take vibes over certs and day I don't give a shit about certs. Like, you know you know, I jokingly call people with like 15 certs in two years of experience, like cert monkeys. And like anytime I experimented with like a couple of them trying to get them through a hiring process and at the team phase where like my team talks to them before they even get to me, the team's like, no, George, no, we can't, we can't. and can Because you got it along, we got it worked together every day. like I can't, no, I can't. I've had incidents where I've hired somebody because of the paper trail. We call them paper tigers. I like that. oh the It's less offensive than my term. It was a worse experience because their personality was dull. They didn't know how to communicate well. They literally kept things in a silo. It was like, this is mine. And it was ah it was just horrible. so
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good, that's a good point. I think a lot of the education system now is so highly individualistic and that's how people approach the things. But once you're out of a classroom, like that's the real world is all team. It's, and so, you know, having been in the military and George having been in a competitive sports background, like it really helps also that you have had experiences of like, Oh, I'm in a room full of strangers, AKA teammates, or, you know, my troop or whatever. And I,
00:17:58
Speaker
I guess this is it and we got to get along. We got to communicate. You know, there's there's something to be said for that and maybe some skills that you picked up in the networking too. I have to ask like, you know, like but I do have another proper question, but for this sake, it's kind of like.
00:18:18
Speaker
Do you find though that the ability to be a good fit, even if there's a gap in technical competence, like I think anyone can learn the technology, anyone can learn the thing, but there are certain intangibles about a person that like, you just, you can't train that. It's just who they are. And that's kind of what we're looking for, right? No, I would agree.
00:18:40
Speaker
Even when I asked, like when I was doing more interviews and hiring, even when I asked technical questions, I wasn't looking for necessarily the right answer. It was how they answered it and what they said to me. Like, are you thinking critically? like Even if you don't know or you don't have the right one, like how are you approaching it? Is it rigid? Is your answer kind of like,
00:18:58
Speaker
you know, do you feel stuffy? Like, are you able to just kind of talk to me? Like, I would look at other things that were indicators that like, okay, like she ain't, that wasn't quite right. But that was really a good shot. And I get where she was trying to go with that. And I get how she tried to do this, right? So I, when I was interviewing, I would kind of help, depending on the interviewee, I would kind of help pull things out of them so I can see. And if even in my prom thing, and me trying to help you, you still kind of, you know, fell flat and said, all right, well, I tried.
Peer Networking in Entrepreneurship
00:19:29
Speaker
And I'm very engaging when I interview. So.
00:19:32
Speaker
It was a perfect segue kind of what I wanted to ask. um So by experience, you have to be one of the most qualified security leaders I've ever seen. You, based on your based on your paper trail from my assessment, could build and run an IT environment just as well as you could secure it. So I was really pleased with your recent post about peer networking and rising up the ranks together, even when you don't, or even when you move on to different organizations, which you know people do usually every one to two years.
00:19:58
Speaker
respectively. I can tell you that by personal experience, I have a massive network of friends from my time in uniform as well, who I've worked with through my entire time in industry. Everyone seemed to kind of transition in cyber. We all stayed friends together. We all help each other out. It seems to be the biggest benefit of the veteran turned commercial practitioner pipeline. When did you realize the power of peer networking? Because a lot of people wrongly consider it a waste of time because they're always looking towards the season and not seeing value at the same level.
00:20:32
Speaker
I don't know when exactly, but I will say this. With some of the latest things that I've been doing recently, I say in the last five years, um everybody I ask to help me and support me are peers. like I have ah the smallest cyber ally organization that I have, right? I need speakers. I need people to you know help me build out some of these memberships. I just reach out and ask my friends. I reach out and ask people who are doing the same thing I'm doing.
00:21:00
Speaker
and they they say yes to me. i think I think more recently when I started doing more entrepreneurial stuff, that's where it really stood out to me, right rather than in my career. Because in at Raytheon, I had a really great internal network. um And again, people who I met in the military who I still knew and who were still connected, but we weren't you know in defense together. Some were still in the military, some were doing different things, but I would say it was more in these last five years when I actually lifted my head up and started looking out and said, you know hey, I want to build something. you know What do I do? Who's going to help me? It's like, how do I do it? um And I didn't have necessarily the funds to pay for experts. So it was just people who were doing something similar, either building a business too, or trying to grow in their career too, or you know just that's really how I how i saw it and how I really started getting more
00:21:50
Speaker
oh just bought into the idea that, hey, it's who's around me, who's going to help? And that clip from Issa Rae, that's the one I shared, that was like, man, this is real. like It's the people who are doing the same thing with you, who's struggling with you, who are going to help you. um So for me, that's where I noticed. Georgia was recent. It wasn't even that it really clicked. like Yo, it's her, she got my back. I can call her when I don't know how to, I had a friend, she's you know building her side a cyber business and she's doing something different than me, but I needed to understand how to do like fitless Facebook advertising. She's selling me for two hours. You know how much people charge for like the Facebook training? Free consulting. She talked to me for two hours showing me literally how to do it.
00:22:31
Speaker
and Yeah, that is awesome. That's awesome. like And straight up like I so I had the privilege this week Winning like see so the year so they brought me up on stage and whatever it was all
Friendships & Professional Success
00:22:43
Speaker
nice. Thank you And I did a shout out to all my career mentors at every phase That was my speech and in the room was the guy who was my best friend He's actually like my like real life best friend and um We've known each other through the army for well over a decade. We've been through everything together and he's in the room. He's now like a, like a deputy CISO level guy at a large like multi-billion dollar manufacturer. We've worked together at different spots and all that blah, blah, blah. Point is I wouldn't be in the industry without him because he was the dude that like, when I left the army and I was like, shit, man, I got to find a job.
00:23:18
Speaker
He was like, Hey man, I work at the sock. You know, it's, I know it's not like the same thing as singing, but like we can figure it out. He sat with me for three days at a bar, ramming network security down my throat so I could pass an interview and get a job that he hooked me up with for the interview. I got to bring him on stage and thank him personally for this. And I think those friendships, man, that's, that's what gets us through this shit. No, it is. I mean, I have so many examples of that, but that was one recent one. i mean it is it' the people that sit deep crying call people, even as a leader, I've had people who I've had a call crying because the situation came up to, you know, and I'm struggling. I don't know how to handle it. And I've been doing this for 20 years. I can say in the last six months in my new role, calling somebody crying, like, I don't know how to handle this. What am I going to do? Give me your experience. Like, just talk, talk me through this. And they'll still be for an hour, two hours to your point, George, and help me out, help me think through it, help me strategize. um But that's what does it like. Yeah. And it's not like
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the networking isn't just like climbing people like a ladder, right? It's also like the safety net. And, the you know, when I got laid off and I ah basically told everyone sort of back channeled, the last two roles I've gotten, there was no, I didn't submit a resume, I didn't submit an application. It was people saying my name in rooms that I'm not in. And that's like, that's, that I was like, oh, well.
00:24:43
Speaker
good thing I'm not a dick ah because like those are that's like the four words I live by and um That's that's what gets you in and ah that's awesome. I and I think like yes if you wanted to put some Quality to it. It's like time is all we have so when people give you their time as an incredible value It is though And I'm so grateful. And I'll tell them, like, I don't forget the money, whatever else. Like, you gave me your life your life essence sharing with me. I know that's kind of extra, but you you did. I appreciate it um yeah when that happens. But I think you said something about not climbing over people. It's it's none of that, man. Like, you it's really relationship building. that That's what this is all about. you can't You just can't miss that point. And people like to try to make things like super deep. But we said several times, things are simple.
00:25:35
Speaker
People are simple. We want to be connected. You want to feel appreciated, right? We want to feel like we're supporting and being supported and not being taken advantage of. um And you want to be with people that add value to you and vice versa, right? Like, so it's simple. um And I think most things that I say and most things you hear even when professionals come on here is the same advice. It's just different ways, different mediums, different people who say it with their experience that may resonate with you.
00:26:02
Speaker
but it's this it people, relationships. Absolutely. um Hey listeners, if you dig the snark, the stories, and the big swings we take, we'd appreciate your support. You can now become an official supporter of the show. You can send us a one-time gift or sign up as a member to provide ongoing support. Memberships start for as little as $1 per month. Just follow the link in the show notes. Each membership tier comes with a unique set of benefits, including exclusive discounts to the BKBT swag shop and even advisory services for your team. So really, for less than you'd pay for one cup of coffee per month, you can support the show. It covers our hosting fees, helps us make cool swag, and it lets us know that what we're doing is valuable to you. Many thanks to listener Dina Mathers for her recent contribution. We'd love to have yours too. Now, back to the show.
00:27:04
Speaker
um
00:27:07
Speaker
All right, in the first part of the show, we talked about networking and you kind of intimated some tips that you used for yourself. Like you referred to the quota that you use. Like if I just talked to this one person and sort of build up that capacity.
00:27:20
Speaker
um This is the question we ask a lot, but like what is your practical advice for young people? They hear these things. They hear you should network. They don't really like teach you how to do that. And so all of us kind of like figure it out or we don't. And so what is your really practical brass tacks advice? Like,
Networking Tips for Young Professionals
00:27:43
Speaker
you know, young child, this is how you're going to go out in the world. And when somebody says this is a networking event, this is how you're going to do it. OK, so I would first say don't wait till you need something to network. Right.
00:27:57
Speaker
I already go out and network and meet people and build a relationship, right? um I would also say one thing that was easy for me when I got out there and I'm in a room for people I don't know, um don't just ask them like, what do you do for a living? Maybe ask them something that's out of the and the box. Like, you know, you know where's the owner last vacation? Where are you from? Like just ask other things about them versus like their job and what they're doing. um Because it does kind of throw you off to kind of be like, oh, my last vacation or all, like, you know,
00:28:26
Speaker
Something just more specific about impersonal. I think that's something to to, that's a little bit different than than normal and don't be afraid, right? People are people. I think that um my big thing, like I said earlier, whenever I would network is I was afraid. Like I just thought, you know, people were higher and I put them on pedestals and that's just not it. So just ask regular questions and talk to people, have conversations.
00:28:51
Speaker
Um, don't be afraid. I try to teach my girls that my girls are 11 and they're shy. They can be painfully shy. And so I will make them go and pick up the Starbucks order and go to the front and talk to the people, right? Um, cause they're just people. So I think that's what I would say. Just that's nice. Yeah. I like that. I like also because if you ask that question, that causes somebody to kind of like slip, right? If if they've talked to 10 people and 10 people have said, what do you do? And then you're the one person who doesn't.
00:29:21
Speaker
You are memorable, right? Like just in that moment, just enough of that. you question now they hate to be anything that's not normal but Also, i I hate that question because it's like, I am not my job, right? Like we're all more than whatever we do for a living.
00:29:37
Speaker
hundred
00:29:40
Speaker
So I ask you, just based on your experience, I'm going to go back to that a little bit. Do you see the future of security leadership as folks taking on like the chief information and security officer role, so the security person being in charge of IT or vice versa?
00:29:59
Speaker
or double-heading another function where you're the CISO, but you're also in charge of risk or privacy, will there be a but there'll still be sorry a place for pure non-developer, non-programmer security leaders, or do we all have to all start learning how to code and actually get some experience in the pocket?
00:30:18
Speaker
o Okay, so let me clarify the question. Okay, are we going to have curious CISOs who are technical?
00:30:29
Speaker
I'm going to try to dumb it down for myself, that are technical, or what's the or? so the ore so it's it's It's CISOs who can be in charge of both the IT environment, so CISOs who can take on the CIO role, or or at least a secondary role, such as risk management or privacy, so you're getting more in the legal space.
00:30:50
Speaker
Or like is there a place still for the non-technical security practitioner and leader who is essentially a GRC person, for example? you know They're not traditionally technical. They are they are technical. like We just did GRC engineering a couple of weeks ago, but like traditionally not looked upon as as technical.
00:31:11
Speaker
And so i'm I'm hearing a lot of words you know from a lot of friends of mine who are working in the recruiting space or working in the venture capital space. A lot of CISO roles are now developing into you're going to be in charge of the whole engineering environment as they want to break down the silos between IT and security.
00:31:29
Speaker
But a we have been, and and I personally have been pushing hard on the message because i'm I'm a product of it, folks can get into security and a practitioner role without having to have the STEM degree or a developer background or that kind of thing. But because of the way business is trending right now, it seems to me that businesses want more technical CISOs. They want technical leaders. So to actually break into that gatekeeper gate kept area or that glass ceiling to get into that C-suite insecurity now you have to become technical it seems would you agree with that statement? it was funny though I remember back in the day where they talked about CSO's being too technical and not understanding business and having the ability to really communicate these technical ideas and now it seems like it's going back to you have to be technical to get into this space and to do so that it seemed like the inverse to me I would say I was still saying a little bit of both
00:32:23
Speaker
I would say you you would need to understand the technical aspects of an organization and you would need to also understand the business as aspects and have that, I guess, non-technical, what do you call it, the soft skills, right? That's what I would say. i'm umm not Yeah. I mean, that's what I would say.
CISO Roles: Technical Skills vs. Business Acumen
00:32:42
Speaker
I think my role now is more at the business level, being a director. So I don't really have all the, at the C-suite level and who should do what and who should oversee what, but I do know there needs to be a balance. That's what I would say. So you probably answered that in New Georgia and your explanation was better than even my response, but I
00:33:03
Speaker
Okay, but you have the years and the diversity of experience stuff that I really think if you weren't at one of the most important, we'll say defense and trust real organizations in the world, that's huge. You would be a CISO at any other mid market organization or probably even a billion dollar plus organization that's not in the defense space. You would be the CISO. Based on your experience, it's insane that you're not, but I get it because Ray Theon's pretty cool and that's a pretty cool career path. I used to aspire to be a CISO and then I saw what happened. CISO is tough. I'm okay with where I am. So no, um no.
00:33:47
Speaker
Oh, so so so real straight to the bone. That's what that's what this is about. That's amazing. All right, Candace, we're going to round to home with a a lightning round. So ah ask them pretty fast. Let's see what you get. One thing that you know now that you wish you could have passed on to your former self in terms of the career advice you became?
00:34:13
Speaker
It'd be what I
Authenticity in Professional Settings
00:34:14
Speaker
said earlier. We're all just human. Stop stop putting people on pedestals. might Just go in and being yourself and just go in and doing the best you can and not being so anxious. I had a lot of anxiety, a lot of like pressure on myself when I was younger. Just just do your best.
00:34:28
Speaker
And it's all good. like It's going to work out as it needs to. Prepare, do your best, show up, and things work out. I wish I'd have known that. I would have saved myself. um I got some great hands for my family. I had a lot of anxiety starting out in my career ah because I wanted to do well and just show up and be this person um and just calm down. Just chill out. It's going to work out. Worst piece of career advice you ever got?
00:34:58
Speaker
Where's the peace?
00:35:04
Speaker
That's a good question, because I don't know if I ever had bad advice in in my career. I've had really great mentors. know, George. That's great. Boy, that is a charm. That's a charmed life. Yeah, that's awesome. You blessed.
00:35:26
Speaker
which i I've had some great mentors, but yeah. All right. Well, we we should end on we should end on the positive and ask the inverse, which is what is the best piece of advice you've ever gotten? So one of my mentors was still a mentor, always told me to speak up and use your voice.
00:35:45
Speaker
never go into a room and and you're in a position of either authority or you have something you can say and you stay silent. So he always said to speak up um because I would, I go in a room, it could be an assessment and it's an out brief and they go around and I don't say anything. And it's not to say stuff just to say stuff, but there is truly something I could say to add about you. He said, never stay silent, just speak up, use your voice um and don't be afraid of that. So that was something that stuff stood out to me. So anytime I can think and have an opportunity to say something that adds um
00:36:16
Speaker
value in a conversation, I'm going to do it. um And I'll brief and brief weekly meeting, whatever it is, I'm going to use my voice. Nice. Yeah. I love that. That's a perfect place to end. And as long as you you're, what you're saying isn't, I'd like to echo what that other person said and just reiterate what this is. Calm down.
00:36:37
Speaker
All right. Well, Candace, this was a blast. I'm glad that in ah season three, we have finally gotten you on here and you've taken the time to to share your wealth of experience and expertise with us. Thank you so much. no I appreciate it. Thank you both. This is fun this is fun definitely let my hair down what I have, you know, and you guys made it easy. So thank you so much for this. You're awesome Candace. Thank you.
00:37:06
Speaker
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00:37:34
Speaker
<unk> now it's your question my man to your question i put it's your like oh a jesus praise us like