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World Domination, the Process, and Gaining Real World Cyber Skills
142 Plays12 days ago
The unstoppable Tennisha Martin joins the show this week! The Executive Director of BlackGirlsHack digs into what it really takes to build diverse cybersecurity talent pipelines in today's challenging environment.
George K and George A talk to Tennisha about:
- How BGH is using AI and hands-on labs to teach real-world hacking skills
- Why traditional education often falls short on practical cybersecurity training
- The economic barriers keeping talented people out of tech careers
- Building sustainable nonprofit programs when traditional funding gets rocky
Plus we dive into some raw talk about staying focused on the mission even when external pressures try to knock you off course.
As Tennisha puts it: "Our mission hasn't changed just because the administration has changed. We're still training people, still getting folks certified, still building that workforce."
Whether you're interested in cybersecurity education, diversity in tech, or nonprofit leadership, this episode has something for you.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks'
00:00:06
Speaker
Yo, it's the show. It's Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks, the cybersecurity podcast that tackles all the human side of the industry, trust, respect, and everything in between. i am George K. on the vendor side.
00:00:18
Speaker
I'm George A. Achievement Information Security Officer.
Meet Tanisha Martin: A DEI Advocate
00:00:21
Speaker
And today we have the one, the only Tanisha Martin, executive director of Black Girls Hack, a.k.a. Mother of Hackers.
00:00:29
Speaker
We've been trying to get her on for well over a year. Missed her last year because of surgery, but she's fit to fight. She's back in it. And we're really glad to have her here to close out ah the month of February.
00:00:41
Speaker
Yeah, got to be honest with you, she is on the very, very edge of the front line in the fight for EI, in the fight for the marginalized people in our industry, and generally speaking, in the fight for speaking truth to power, because right now, unfortunately, that is the world we live in.
00:00:58
Speaker
need more Tanisha, who we're happy to have her on the show. I'm amazed to spend time with us. I think she brought a ton of value for our listeners. Yeah. And there's not really much to say other than she brings the fire and you should listen to it. So enough of us. Let's get into it with Tanisha Martin.
00:01:17
Speaker
Tanisha Martin, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Black Girls Hack and AI in Cybersecurity
00:01:22
Speaker
My two favorite Georges. Well, flattery will get you everywhere. ah This has been a ah long time in the planning. We missed you last year, um but still had the crew on. But really happy to have you, Mother of Hackers, on the show personally.
00:01:40
Speaker
Well, um all right. So as everyone knows or does not know, you are executive director at Black Girls Hack, an organization that we are big fans of. You have work.
00:01:51
Speaker
You're surviving capitalism just like the rest of us. You decided to start a new podcast to document your discovery on using AI tooling for pen testing and generally how it's applying to your cybersecurity practice.
00:02:05
Speaker
You're speaking at conferences, left, right, and center. You are well on your way to your world domination plan. And anyone who follows Black Girls Hack knows that that is a credo that everyone is working with and working towards.
Handling Stress and Commitment to Diversity
00:02:20
Speaker
And I want to ask, want to start, where are you getting the energy, right? Where are you finding the sources to fuel this world domination. I say that because as we'll get into, we're not idiots. We're living in a world that has suddenly changed is very noisy for a lot of reasons that we are going to get into.
00:02:44
Speaker
But you seem to just be kind of focusing that energy into very fine points and like doing the damage and and maybe even more than you were before, if that's even possible.
00:02:55
Speaker
So let's start there. Where are you getting your energy these days? um I am literally like just keeping my head above water at this point. like You probably can't tell, but like my nose is like slightly out of the water, um and the rest of me is currently like completely submerged.
00:03:10
Speaker
um I am stressed and overwhelmed, and but you know the the mission goes on. World domination does not stop because I'm tired or... you know, just frustrated or just, you know, feeling like I don't know what to do.
00:03:24
Speaker
um So for me, you know, as much as possible, I try to manage my time. I try to prioritize what needs to be done like immediately. But, you know, i'm I'm out here on a hope and a prayer, um honestly, um just constantly praying, you know, that God continues to to keep me upright because i honestly, George, I am so tired. try not to be. I try to be as much as possible, you know, like upbeat and But the reality is, is that with everything that's going on, like it's it's definitely getting harder to continue the work that I need to to be able to do.
00:03:57
Speaker
um and And for me, it is a need. Like, I feel like I need to help the next generation. I need to help increase diversity. These are still things that are important to me, even as I think the rest of the world is kind of or at least half the United States, I should say.
00:04:09
Speaker
has decided to like, you know, open up a war against DEI and what they think that that means um in terms of just being a brown person or a black person, you know, in on this earth. So um I'm just trying to keep it together.
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, I kind of really empathize with that. We were talking about a little bit on that before we started recording. like I think there's a degree of difficulty. And and by the way, audience, my apologies in usual World Tour fashion. I'm in a random airport right now.
00:04:40
Speaker
because that's just my life. So my apologies for any background noise, continuing them. I think it's it's really difficult to be a person of color in industry today, especially because what we are facing is a backlash against our fight to have any kind of equity.
Challenges of Shifting DEI Narratives
00:05:00
Speaker
compared to the challenge that we've had to deal with traditionally. And I think, you know, there are lessons learned in history that I would think would have been solidified at this point. So when you understand, you know, privilege between classes, when you understand how oppression occurs and how systemic oppression occurs and what its outputs are and I say this as someone who's made it into the CISO ranks at an obscenely fast rate.
00:05:24
Speaker
um And I'm definitely an outlier statistically. So I see everything because i still work within my ethnic community and I still try to help people out as a lot of us do. I'm wondering, you know, from your perspective,
00:05:38
Speaker
How do we get back to narrative? Because I think a big part of the problem is misinformation, disinformation, propaganda. You know, we are seeing things that are reminiscent of some previous times in the last century where people were brainwashed into false ideas.
00:05:56
Speaker
And we have allowed ourselves to become brainwashed into false ideas. and I think that's the half population you're talking about. And the other half of the population is so inundated, they are exhausted, as you've said.
00:06:08
Speaker
So there is no critical response from the people who believe in the right values to critically respond. And I think that that exhaustion and the fact that the problem seems so far away, like if it doesn't directly impact you, it all seems so far away. It's on the internet, it's on TV, it doesn't impact me yet until the day that it does.
00:06:28
Speaker
How do we then, from an industry standpoint, take back that narrative and and understand that we still have to navigate the politics of activist boards and activist finance who are trying to silence marginalized voices actively as if that's the just thing to do?
00:06:48
Speaker
I honestly don't don't have a ah great answer for that. um Someone in one of my group chats likes to refer to it as basically the United States is being DDoSed. like as his humans. And we're just basically being, you know, overwhelmed with so much information that we have no choice but to like just shut down into submission.
00:07:07
Speaker
um And I think that the reality is, is that, you know, there's so much misinformation, there's so much disinformation, you know, people are not fact checking, like, you know, the days of having like an encyclopedia, or, you know, so you know, actually looking for a source of truth,
00:07:22
Speaker
you know, people don't do that too too too often. um I am an instructor in addition to everything else that I do in my life. And, you know, like we still have people who like are using random like internet sources or, you know, things that are not actually factual.
00:07:36
Speaker
um And so I think that we just need to, you know, I think number one, have empathy um and realize that even if it doesn't impact you right this moment, it's something that impacts someone else in a negative way. And, you know, people are losing their basic human rights and their basic, you know,
00:07:52
Speaker
you know, I think human standards that, you know, should be available to everyone.
Misinformation and Empathy in Society
00:07:56
Speaker
um And I think that that just goes into being a good person, honestly. But, um you know, i don't I don't know how we do that because I feel like, you know, with everything that's going on with the, you know, removing fact check from a lot of the social media sites, you know, with, you know, basic people basically saying whatever it is that they want to say and am pu in a very public, high profile platforms and it being accepted as absolute truth.
00:08:20
Speaker
You know, um I feel like some people don't actually want to know the truth. They just want to propagate propagate and spread misinformation. um And I don't necessarily know that we can do anything about it other than speak truth to, you know, our stories, what we're going through and, you know, what the reality is, and then just continuing to be, you know, good people in terms of our hiring, in terms of, you know, making sure that we have diverse groups and,
00:08:45
Speaker
You know, that the things that we do are representative of the world around us. up um but But is it then worth the fight to take back the power? Or then do we have to empower ourselves by becoming the founders, by becoming the leaders of our own organization and economically competing against them?
Financial Action and DEI Policies
00:09:06
Speaker
Because at the end of the day, ah you know, someone talked to me about, I'm not going to name the the ethnic groups, but let's say differences between certain ethnic communities and why they're more successful than others. And I want give you the story and I want to give get get your thoughts on it.
00:09:20
Speaker
So one person, one ethnic community is sitting at a bar with another. And the person from the other side asks, hey, can you give me a dollar? And they give him that dollar. And then the person takes the dollar says, you know what?
00:09:32
Speaker
You're never going to see that dollar again. And the guy asks, well, why? He says, because I'm going to take this dollar and I'm going to go to the chief in my community. i'm going to go the barber in my community.
00:09:43
Speaker
I'm going to go to the service person in my community. That dollar is going to propagate through my community and it's going to make us stronger. Okay. The rest of us are still competing against one another. Do you think that's problem?
00:09:58
Speaker
you know a lot of the problems that i see you know would be handled because you know i i recognize that people have you know the skills and they have the desire to try to do something and i think that it's um you know if i had the ability to hire people i would but you know what i'm forced to do is basically existing and existing infrastructure um where you have systems that are discriminatory, you know, at every turn, you know, sending, submitting your resume through the front door of a company, for example, or, you know, getting interviews, um you know, trying to get those things done.
00:10:27
Speaker
um it's It's just really problematic to me. um But I think that there's definitely something to the collective voices and collective power, especially when it comes to finances. You know, one of the things that I'm like super excited about in the news is that, you know, I was looking at, there was a very high profile company who's you know, market cap cap got dropped. I think it was something like $16 billion dollars because of the fact that they decided they wanted to, you know, turn against DEI.
00:10:53
Speaker
And the consumers basically said, you know, hey, we're not going to shop there. We're not going to give them our money anymore. And that's had a negative impact both in terms of their, you know, their stock price and then also in terms of their, you know, revenue and the money that they're making.
00:11:06
Speaker
um And to me, that is money speaks much louder than feelings and emotions. And I think that when we use our collective finances, when we, you know as as as black and brown people, if we say, hey, we're not going to support these companies that are not supporting us, and we you know use our our money, you know our money speaks much louder than than our voices. you know No one cares about Tanisha, the person, but you know when these companies stop getting my dollars and I'm spending this this money every week,
00:11:36
Speaker
Then, you know, they're going to feel that in the long run, especially when it's done and in mass. So, you know, I think it's impossible. I think it's important for us to, um you know, speak up and and and do things, you know.
00:11:49
Speaker
Financially, which support the missions which we believe in. But at the same time, like as a as a nonprofit founder, I was talking to George a about this earlier. um it's It's hard for me because I can't necessarily speak to things the way that I would if I was just a person because I still need to be, you know, um palatable to The corporations, which, you know, are the primary funders of nonprofit organizations, because, you know, black folks foundations are are typically underfunded.
00:12:17
Speaker
um We typically are so far behind other organizations in terms of our fundraising abilities and and and income. So, you know, for me to. you know, for example, get on LinkedIn every day and tell people like how I feel about things and say that it's not right against all these marginalized groups, you know, that would basically alienate me against a lot of people who, you know, are are some of our primary funders. Right. So I have to kind of like not say what I want to be saying or as much as I would like to be saying, just based off of the fact that I am still trying to serve the greater good, you know, and I can't financially myself
00:12:50
Speaker
you know, afford to help train, you know, thousands of people every year, the way that, you know, black girls hack does. Um, so i have to kind of like position myself and kind of write a ah strange line between what I would want to be saying. And then what I actually can say, um you know, sometimes I'll be like, Hey, Tanisha, the human is saying this, like not Tanisha, the founder, you know, don't hold it against me.
00:13:11
Speaker
Um, because, you know, I think Beck was on your show before, you know, Beck is the the secret sauce to that makes, um, a black girls hack work and and she's very like hey like don't be going off too crazy um you know because you know we don't want it to negatively impact the the amazing work that we're doing in the community as far as you know educating and training people for careers in it and cyber security we we all need that high eq lieutenant that pulls us back everybody needs a back but you can't have her it
00:13:42
Speaker
um That actually, it's like you're reading my notes. That actually leads to the next point here. So um there is this just very clear-eyed articulation of of the problem that we're in now. And of course, it comes from Her Majesty Toni Morrison.
00:13:59
Speaker
um She said in a keynote, the function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining over and over again your reason for being.
00:14:13
Speaker
We've talked about the outrage. We've talked about how draining it is. But as you said, you run a big team. It is not Tanisha running solo and it's very talented team. And one of the things that I really appreciate about Black Girls Hacking is you're very transparent on your year end metrics. Basically, you know, this is our mission. How many people did we get trained? How many people went through our workshops? How how were our dollars spent?
00:14:37
Speaker
um Which is all admirable, but that also brings to what you were saying. Nonprofit funding is getting a little tricky. ah Grant writing and applications themselves are getting into these like linguistic minefields about what you can and can't like advocate for or say that the money would go to, quote unquote.
00:14:57
Speaker
So I guess my question is, less now Tanisha and more the team, how are you as an organization sort of staying focused and kind of you know trying to keep ah You need to keep sort of a side eye on the outrage because you need to know what's coming. But you also can't let it overwhelm you because then you would just sort of be demoralized. Right. And then that is the trap. I think that is like Toni Morrison's perfect trap is like if I make you question yourself or just spend asinine amounts of time defending your credentials and credibility,
00:15:33
Speaker
you know That's part of the point is to just drain your energy. So how are you guys keeping keeping the spirits up and staying focused on those day-to-day operational tasks? um So what I tend to do is like I try to keep my eye on what's going on so I can kind of like anticipate what trends are going to be.
00:15:48
Speaker
um One of the things that we are more intentional about you know coming into this year in anticipation of what we you know saw to be the future, i don't think anyone... like realized it was going to be as as bad as what I feel like it is thus far. But, you know, we still had some idea of some inkling of what it was going to look like. um So what I've basically told my team is that, you know, this is business as usual for us. It's never been easy.
00:16:13
Speaker
um We are going to continue shooting shots and some of them may land, some of them may not. But, you know, we're still going to submit the grants. We're going to try to conform as much as possible to you know, the revised expectations, you know, make it not about necessarily diversity and, you know, being black women, but basically about the training and the need to um make our workforce more resilient and more diverse so that, you know, it can be, you know, because there's better better outcomes financially. And I think also for in terms of the types of things that we find and the different perspectives that are bringing there. So,
00:16:45
Speaker
You know, i I tell my team, um one of our grant writers, you know, I feel like every week she's like stressed out. She's like, oh, my gosh, there's you know so many different things that are changing. And and I got to tell her, like, we we just keep shooting shots. You know, we'll shoot the shot. Some of them land. Some of them do not. But our mission is still the same. We still are moving forward. um You know, part of it was with faith, you know, that we're going to ah you know, raise the money that we need to, you know, run the programs that we're running and and keep going.
00:17:13
Speaker
um But the reality is, is that, you know, our mission has not changed just because the administration has changed. We're still training people. We still, you know, are trying to get people certified. You know, there is still a workforce.
00:17:24
Speaker
um So we're going to still continue to train people to prepare them for that workforce. um So I, for us, honestly, I think it's we just got to keep moving and we still got to keep um going. and And luckily enough, you know, i think that even with everything going on, we're still able to get volunteers.
00:17:39
Speaker
We still have amazing people who say like, Hey, how can I be an ally? How can I help? How can I amplify your voice? You know um even if it's, you know, I can't afford anything because look at the price of eggs right now.
00:17:52
Speaker
um We were talking in one of my group chats the other day about how they're selling like ah Lucy eggs like they do cigarettes at um you know stores. You got one to two in the jacket pocket.
00:18:08
Speaker
So it's it's it's I really feel like um you know we got to just keep moving and you know continue doing the the work. Nice.
Barriers in Cybersecurity Careers
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah. a Dedication to the process. um If the discipline falls off, it's I mean, that's that's the goal, right, is to knock you off your game, essentially.
00:18:26
Speaker
um I think it is. And, you know, I have learned throughout my career, I've always had people who try to say, oh, you're not technical or you're not this or that, or you're not whatever the case may be.
00:18:39
Speaker
And the reality is, is that it's a distraction. You know, when I'm spending time, um you know, trying to justify my existence or prove that I'm technical and, you know, talk about my degrees and all my certifications, that's keeping me from talking about things that actually matter, you know? And the reality is, is that like my certifications, my degrees, all of those things, they don't matter.
00:19:00
Speaker
What matters is that, you know, we need a more diverse workforce. We need our, you know, companies to look like the the world as a whole. And, you know, to do that, we need to be, you know, kind of reducing at least the financial barriers to entry for people who are trying to get into cybersecurity and IT careers.
00:19:17
Speaker
Absolutely. But then, you know, have to carry on that point because I go back to my last question. Like, if the system no longer wants to lend its hand, is it about time we start building our own ladders?
00:19:29
Speaker
And this is the thing i try to encourage, right? now i I'm an Arab, so I haven't talked to the Arab community, but, you know, for the for the sake of respect for this episode, I'll say it for the black community. I'm not a member of it. I'm not speaking for y'all, but There needs to be more black founders.
00:19:47
Speaker
There needs to more successful black founders. Like I know ah this one lady, her name just escapes me right now. Her name's the Claudette. She's the CEO of Potexel.
00:19:58
Speaker
It's a company up here in Canada. She's just got like 2 million in funding. She, to me, is an example of the absolute pinnacle of ah what success can be when a person from a marginalized community puts in their effort. And i think before before she became CEO, she was working in big consulting. She worked her way up.
00:20:18
Speaker
but she She made her bones the right way. How then can we convince people? Because we have plenty of people in our communities who are in in those higher positions, right?
00:20:29
Speaker
I get the importance of talking to the students. I get the importance of talking to the youths. I get the importance of talking to people who junior. They're great, okay? But, you know, my good friend, Octavia Howell, maybe you know her, I'm sure you do.
00:20:42
Speaker
we We talk all the time like, hey, as executives, we have to have a peer to peer conversation. And I think we're not doing enough peer to peer work convincing each other like, hey, you have the experience, you have the knowledge, you have the power.
00:20:55
Speaker
Why aren't you starting something? Why aren't you founding something? Right? Why aren't you taking a chance? Some part of that trap, right? Some of that the trap where they force the few at the table to do so much pulling up the ladder that it distracts them from doing anything sort of laterally, right? Like at the same level of power. but but what do you think about vaccination?
00:21:18
Speaker
um Honestly, like I, I feel like we have very well intentioned, very well meaning people who live at the top and they, they do what they can. But the reality is, is that,
00:21:31
Speaker
you know, I feel like there's a ah give and take, right? Where it's like, hey, I can make money or I can help other people, right? And I feel like it's very hard to do both. So for example, like Tanisha the human, Tanisha the hacker, like I am so behind in my studies and like all of the things that I'm supposed to be doing because i'm I'm basically helping other people to be able to achieve their goals, to be able to do the things that they need, they want to be able to do, right?
00:21:56
Speaker
I mean, I could be expanding my craft. I could be getting you know more technical and learning you know new and different things. But the reality is, is there's 24 hours in a day. you know And I think that when you're faced with that you know conundrum, do i focus on you know economic prosperity or do I focus on upbringing other people?
00:22:15
Speaker
you know it's It's very hard to be able to do both. um What I see sometimes working is ah reverse mentoring. Someone actually brought this up to me the other day and I thought it was like, I didn't realize that that's what it was called, but it's basically...
00:22:26
Speaker
you know, people who are at the individual contributor level talking about the impact of various aspects to executives and saying like, hey, this is why this is important. This is why we need to be able to do this. But a lot of times when you get to that executive level, you know,
00:22:39
Speaker
it it stops being about what is right and wrong and more so about what makes dollars and what makes sense. You know, and that's why, you know, at least for me, like I've started, you know, kind of shifting some of my my messaging in terms of like, hey, the financial outcomes are better when there's more diversity.
00:22:53
Speaker
You know, the economic aspects are are better when there's more diversity. I'll point to Bloomberg articles or Gardner articles or research that basically shows that companies who have more diverse boards, who have diverse effect executives, that they make more money.
00:23:08
Speaker
You know, um you can, what is the, what they say, each one, teach one, you know, you can bring people behind you. But, you know, the reality is, is that, you know, when you're trying to ensure economic prosperity for your family so that we can start living generational wealth within our community, I understand like why some folks would make the decision like, hey, I'm going to focus more more on building my my company and less so on, you know, the reaching the back because there's only so many hours in a day.
00:23:35
Speaker
I'm sure that there are some people who who can do it well. I just know that it's been very difficult for me.
00:23:51
Speaker
is the break.
00:23:55
Speaker
Hey, listeners, we are coming to Toronto. We'll be sitting...
00:24:03
Speaker
Hey listeners, listen up. We're coming to Toronto. We'll be setting the stage on fire with the opening keynote at Secure World Toronto on April 8th. And we'll be closing out the show with our signature event, the Cyber Pitch Battle Royale.
00:24:18
Speaker
Check the show notes for discount codes when you register for Secure World and a link to register for the Battle of Toronto. Let's see who takes home the belt. We hope to see you there.
00:24:36
Speaker
want to shift gears a little bit here and <unk>s talk about some success stories. So if there any from members you'd like to highlight, we'd love to have that here too, but also interested in you, Tanisha.
00:24:49
Speaker
I still see you out there learning new things. signing up for insane degree programs because you you're a masochist, I think. like But like for example, in this podcast that you launched about AI and cybersecurity, I'm curious as to like how that curiosity that you have as a hacker also informs maybe some of the work that Black Girls Hack is doing. So for you know I don't know, are you guys doing stuff around AI and pen testing or blue teaming? or you know how What's that interplay between
00:25:23
Speaker
And your whole organization is made of hackers. So like you're all that curious. So what's ah what's going on there in terms of the programming? um So for me, like I my doctoral dissertation dissertation is is basically on um at the intersection cybersecurity artificial intelligence and how do we get better at training the future hackers of the world?
00:25:42
Speaker
And the reason why I chose that topic specifically is you know, with BGH in mind, like how do we get better in terms of getting more efficiency um in terms of training, training people?
00:25:53
Speaker
So we've got like an AI um security program that we're launching. I think it actually started this maybe last month. um So we have people who just now starting that. But like and we also just actually got awarded a ah grant from AWS for us to basically build out some um ah networks. So what I want to do is basically develop like a, you know, I'm calling it BGH Cloud Labs. But basically what we want to do is, you know, set up, um you know,
00:26:21
Speaker
an environment for our people to be able to track practice their skills. And then we want to basically use AI to do things like generate traffic, you know, be able to, you know, monitor that traffic so we can teach them basically real world tools.
00:26:34
Speaker
um Because, you know, as much as education is, is very important, a lot of times schools are not teaching the hands on skills that people need to be able to do their jobs. And so 100% we want to be able to schools are also running frustratingly behind the curve, right? Because always the curriculum is always populated by people who learn something here. And it's not it's not what's going on right now.
00:26:56
Speaker
Education and the government, I think, are to tend to fall behind technology, right? So like it is much easier for me to adapt a ah curriculum and and and develop something to teach my my my members um than it is for, for example, a curriculum to be built out for to be reviewed, should you for you to go through that entire process. you know Not to mention the fact that you know a lot of schools are resistant to you know newer technologies just because you know they don't want to be technology specific. They try to remain agnostic you know as far as what they're teaching the folks. But the reality is is that You know, you don't learn tools. I did, you know, a whole degree in digital forensics and a whole degree in cybersecurity, and they never mentioned anything about like Cali boxes. You know, there was never like, hey, offensive security. Let's talk about hacking and things of that nature. Right. All of those skills that I have, I've had to pick up myself um externally. And, you know, I've gone to. Carnegie Mellon and Johns Hopkins. And, you know I've gone to the amazing school. and that's And that's what the job wants. They're like, has experience with.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah. And so the reality is, is that, you know, when you go and you do these programs, even at very, you know, um prestigious schools, and then you graduate and then they're looking for you to have experience. And if you've just done your education, you don't have that.
00:28:05
Speaker
Right. So how do we get more intentional in terms of you know, teaching people, how do we get better at it? And I think the wave of the future, at least in my mind, is going to be like um using AI, like um as ah um ah as a sparring partner or as a a teaching tool, right? So that you can basically monitor on a one-on-one basis um what people are are are learning, you know, addressing areas where they have weakness and then, ah you know, teaching them new things that's basically on on their schedule, not necessarily, you know,
00:28:36
Speaker
Like that's one that's consistent for across everybody. um And I'm actually basing my research off of um there's a couple of researchers, Andreas Happ, who have like researchers specifically looking at a tool that has like it's a Python tool.
00:28:51
Speaker
um called, I think it's Hacking Buddy GPT. um But basically, it's meant to automate the attack process, um the initiation, the numeration, things of that nature for you to be able to get into systems. And what I'm trying to look at is extending that, how do we get better in terms of teaching people to hack and then also like for the neurodiverse people out here in the world you know how do we make sure that they can stay on on task and stay focused to get these done so that we can get more diverse group of people into the workforce so those are i guess the particular areas that i'm interested in um i think that ai is going to be doing such amazing things but um you know i think that we need to as a community learn these technologies start getting them integrated into our lives and then
00:29:37
Speaker
you know, we'll be able to do the things to stay relevant and move forward. So my my question is this then, because I think in a lot of more affluent communities with money and resources available, that's a much easier conversation to have.
00:29:52
Speaker
How then do we bridge that gap to pull people out from you know, less economically advantageous situations to give them the opportunity to be exposed to technology. Because in my opinion, I believe big part of the problem is a lack of exposure.
00:30:07
Speaker
A lack of exposure leads to a lack of knowledge, which leads to ignorance. And at a certain age, you really just almost don't even care to know about it. because you're like, yo, I don't care about that. I work at a car shop.
00:30:18
Speaker
I work at this convenience store. hustle, make money at like six different ways, none of which actually have to file taxes, you know, like it's the typical thing. Like, how do we break that barrier? because I think that's a big part of the problem, too, right?
00:30:32
Speaker
So ah let me let me tell you a quick story um related to what you're talking about. um We reached out to a bunch HBCUs and we're like, hey, we want to bring. you know, our training programs to the school so that we can start working with college you know students before they graduate from um from from college. Right.
00:30:49
Speaker
um And what we found from talking to some of the advisors was that, you know, the students are basically focused on money. Right. So if they have to basically decide, do I want to go and make money or do I want to go and learn something?
00:31:00
Speaker
you know They're going to go for survival and they're going to choose money. Right. So a lot of the programs that they had on their campus were programs that provided stipends to the students to basically pay them for their time to learn those skills.
00:31:11
Speaker
um And so we weren't able to be competitive in that type of of of market because, you know, we just don't have those finances to to both pay for the training themselves, but then also pay the students to be there. But the the reality is, is that, you know, when I you know teach at at colleges, a lot of times my students are working full time jobs.
00:31:28
Speaker
You know, so what that means is that they've got a certain number of hours and, you know, maybe their education comes after that. So the reality is, is that we need to address the I think the economic piece of associated with education so that it it makes financial sense for them to to learn things and then just give them the ability to to just be able to learn.
00:31:47
Speaker
And i don't I don't know how we do that other than – because we're reducing the financial cost um for the the training themselves. um But the reality is is that if they're faced with a certain number of hours and they could be working or they could be studying, they're probably going to choose to make money so that they can live. I mean, you've seen the price of eggs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:06
Speaker
I mean, that's a – that is a good – yeah. It's like a you know basic Maslow's hierarchy of needs if you could satisfy – Well, I mean, look, man, I get that. Like when I went through school, you know, after my dad passed away, like my mom was out of work. And like I was, I was like almost living out in my car. I was working three, four jobs. I was working primary reserve, going through military college, like as reservists.
00:32:31
Speaker
And then I was working at the bar and I was working at a supplement store. And I was doing odd jobs as well, doing odd security jobs, like personnel security. Like literally it's like I would be showering at the gym at school to make it to class because I was working all night.
00:32:43
Speaker
And like, I thought that was like a normal experience. And I talked to other people. It's like, that was a baseline it's like what this shit? I just, I feel for people today because that was the economy of like, you know, 20, 2010 to like 2012 kind of thing.
00:33:03
Speaker
That was when money was still good. How are people surviving now? yeah I don't know because the reality is, is that, you know, even though they did, that We keep increasing the minimum rate wage that in most communities within the United States, you can't afford you know to live by yourself and have like a basic, like even a one bedroom apartment based off of the money that you're making from even the increased minimum wage jobs. And, you know, the I think that the reality is, is that, you know, in order to break out of poverty, you kind of need money to do that. Right. You need money to be able to have the luxury to be able to spend time studying. And, you know, like it's it's a trade off.
00:33:39
Speaker
um And the reality is, is that without having those monies, without having programs like, you know, what we offer, a lot of other organizations offer to provide training and a reduced cost basis. The reality is when you look at some of these certifications, like you're going to pay, you know, what, $400 a pop for, you know, the CompTIA ones, you're paying like tens of thousands for some of the, you know, other certifications. And it's just like,
00:34:02
Speaker
How can you afford these things? You know, and the reality is, is if you can afford like gas or a certification, you're probably going to pick a gas. You know, if you can afford food or, you know, I'm saying the choice is always going to be survival and not necessarily, you know, all of these things, which means that, you know, they're, they're forced to choose whatever career it is they've been working in. And that might be retail. That might be,
00:34:23
Speaker
And I started off in in retail. I started working working off in in Wendy's and 7-11, what is it, Jack in the Box and you know places like that. So like i I get it. I've been a server. I've worked in a grocery store. you know I've been a hustler like my entire life. And you know I now over-educated and over-experienced and too many certifications because the reality is is that in order for me to continue to exist and command the salaries that I do,
00:34:49
Speaker
I have to be that much better than, you know, the white male counterparts that are probably hiring me, you know? So okay before George does this thing, can ask you this? Like, cause this, this to me is like a very deep, um, psychological thing I still deal with. i had to go through around like 2013, 2014, about 10 months, just about where to eat and food and rent because a bunch of bad shit happened after just went school and,
00:35:12
Speaker
You know, had some pay garnished and stuff like that. Someone else's mistake ended up being my, my terror, essentially. And I remember the feeling when i was going through that. And it's like two weeks of the month, your stomach is empty.
00:35:24
Speaker
You're living off of like bubble gum and rice. Maybe you get like a can of rice or something like that. Um, And I think the the sadness and despair and the anger that i felt at that time, like if I ever came close, if I ever came close to to making a decision to like end myself, that was like that period where I actually thought about it. I was like, there is no escape from this. This is hell.
00:35:46
Speaker
Right. and And as successful as my life is now, same thing as you command great money, got a mortgage, got a house. I live an absolute life of privilege.
00:35:58
Speaker
That fear from those days is still in the back of my mind that this could fall out at any given time. And that is the one thing i think is still the cause of my anxiety to this day.
00:36:11
Speaker
Do you think that a lot of us in the community all suffer from that same shared type of trauma? Absolutely. Like, I think that we all especially when you come from nothing, like I think that the PTSD of, you know, being afraid of going back to being nothing.
00:36:26
Speaker
um I think that that's what keeps me me motivated to to do a lot of things. um You know, I have been very lucky to, you know, marry a man who basically takes care of me and I just have to take care of myself at this point. But like,
00:36:38
Speaker
You know, he pays our mortgage and, you know, all the things. And, you know, i just have to, like, you know, basically stay alive and do the things that I'm passionate about, which is how I'm able to do things like BGH and, you know, spend so much time doing so many different things to help people.
00:36:52
Speaker
Excuse me. But, um you know, honestly, I worry about it all of the time. You know, like I feel like, you know, at the same time, you can't take it with you. But, at this you know, you don't want to go back to that. So, like, part that's part of what drives me to do the work that I do, because, you know, I want to help bring other people out of poverty as well. You know, I want to help other people be able to, you know, make good money.
00:37:14
Speaker
um If I had had a mentor when I was younger, my first job, you know, my first real job, um They offered me fifty five thousand dollars. And I was like, you know, I'm bawling like everybody I knew wasn't making that much money. I was like, I'm doing something, you know, and come to find out that a girl who went to my same graduate program, had the same master's degree, same school, everything.
00:37:34
Speaker
she got a job at the same team making $75,000 a year. Right. Because she had her value. She knew that, you know what saying? And if i had had someone who tell me like, Hey, Tanisha, you don't need to be asking for $55,000. I realized that's more money than you've ever seen, but like, that's not what you're worth.
00:37:50
Speaker
Right. And without people telling you what the reality is, like if you didn't know that there are people out there making like, you know, almost a million dollars base salary, you know, you wouldn't know to shoot that, those types of shots. You know, I know people who are afraid to say, I want a hundred thousand dollars because they've always been under that, you know?
00:38:08
Speaker
So when they have to basically practice and get themselves used to the point where they can say, Hey, I want $150,000 or, Hey, I want, you know, whatever the case may be. Um, but I think part of that has to be like, you know, Hey, i don't want to go back to where it is, but at the same time, knowing your worth and your value.
00:38:25
Speaker
So that is a perfect place for us to come to the the finer point is um in closing, Tanisha, let's give you space to talk about how can people help out with Black Girls Hack if they're interested.
Supporting Black Girls Hack
00:38:40
Speaker
i want to ask this specifically less sort of the donation, like everyone the tax deductible donation. You can create a recurring donation, but kind of return to that part of the conversation where we talked about Where executive leaders are at, you mentioned mentoring.
00:38:53
Speaker
So we have mentioned ah you guys doing courses and education, but I know you do a lot more than that. Are there also how can people get involved at sort of all layers, let's say, like, mid level, how can they get involved? And then like, you know, executive leaders, if they want to help, how can they get involved?
00:39:10
Speaker
Absolutely. um So we need people to be able to do trainings. um We need people who would be able to do workshops, you know, review resumes, help do mock interviews, for example. You know, we we try to offer you know those types of career services because, you know, it's not just enough to get the training. If you can articulate, you know, what you've done, why it matters to the business, you know, why it's important. Right. So we want to make sure that they're comfortable and prepared for that to know what they're to ask for in terms of their salary.
00:39:36
Speaker
um We need folks. You know, we have a finance team. We have technology teams. We have various teams that, you know, we need people. who are experienced, who can come in and help us, you know, identify policies or help us to strengthen, you know, um our procedures, you know, our GRC foundation, if you will.
00:39:52
Speaker
um So, you know, there's a lot of different ways for people to be able to help. um ah We do day in the life. So we do um a series called Bring a Hack on a Workday, where we have people come and talk about what the careers are, what do they do?
00:40:05
Speaker
Because, you know, if you hear I'm a pen tester, what does that actually mean? And it it actually, strangely enough, means different things to, different companies, right? So a red team at one company might be completely different from, you know, ah an ethical hacker at another company, right? Even though like the foundations are pretty much the same.
00:40:21
Speaker
um But, you know, just being willing to volunteer, if not their their funds, then their time, um you know, their experience, their expertise, you know, all those things are super important. um The other thing is like helping us develop curriculums, I can only teach the things that I know as I get exposed to them. So like I said, the thing that usually gets neglected while I'm out here trying to take over the world is is usually me.
00:40:43
Speaker
you know So you know if I'm not learning new things, then that means that I'm not basically expanding you know the types of curriculums that we can offer to our our members. right So if somebody has a particular set of skills in like a niche area, absolutely help us establish that.
00:40:58
Speaker
what types of certifications are needed for that? You know, what types of trainings, what are the skills that you need for that? Because, you know, those types of things help us to develop curriculums that we can then, you know, put out to our our members and then teach them, you know, those items, to prepare them for careers. Because again, i don't think that the schools are doing a great job of, you know, preparing you for the actual workforce.
00:41:18
Speaker
You know, they're teaching policy and theory, but the reality is, is the companies want to see experience. They want to see hands-on tools. They want to see You know, basically how if you implement these things, you know, what what value did you bring to companies? And if all you've ever done is gone to school, it's hard for you to bring that value to those companies.
00:41:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this cat right here doesn't care how many letters you have after your name. He's going to ask you about your home lab and your CTS. So, yeah, that's a point. But, you know, some people will say, well, hey, if you don't have like one of those $10,000 certifications or if you don't have like an OSCP or if you don't have a CISSP, you know, even though you've only been in the field for a couple of years, then, you know, I'm not going to hire you.
00:41:59
Speaker
And I honestly think that that's um very short sighted and why we're something like reverse mentoring might be useful, because I think for a lot of these positions, it's possible to do the work without having those advanced certifications.
00:42:12
Speaker
Yeah, hundred I'll tell you why that is, though. And George, you can close off because nobody gets fired for hiring IBM, yeah just like nobody gets fired for hiring the over certified person.
00:42:22
Speaker
George, go ahead. and All right. Well, Tanisha, thank you so much for the time, especially here at the end of the week. and Thank you for making the time. It was well worth it. And we will continue to ardently support Black Girls Hack in any way that we can. And we encourage all of our listeners to do the same.
00:42:41
Speaker
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me, both of you. um i am excited to get to hang out with you again. i don't think I've seen you since SquadCon. So um I'm very excited to to see you guys. And thank you for having me.
00:42:53
Speaker
You're awesome, Tanisha. Thank you. Yeah, we'll see you in Vegas.
00:42:59
Speaker
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00:43:20
Speaker
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00:43:34
Speaker
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00:43:49
Speaker
Until then, stay real.