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How Building Talent Creates Loyalty and Business Value
120 Plays5 days ago
Ever wondered why cybersecurity hiring is broken? Jessica's flipping the script with a revolutionary approach to talent acquisition and development!
George K and George A talk to Jessica about:
- How she transformed the company’s hiring by focusing on building talent rather than looking for unicorns or perfect fits
- Why asking "Why are you here?" is her #1 interview question (and what she learns from it)
- How her military background shaped her approach to servant leadership
- Their "strange renegades" philosophy that's created remarkable team loyalty
"Accessibility does not equate to aptitude. Some people just don't have access, but that doesn't mean they won't be great employees."
Every company struggling with talent acquisition or employee churn needs to check out this conversation.
Jessica's transparency about Risk360's approach to compensation, benefits, and career development is refreshingly honest.
Listen now and let us know what you think! Could this approach work in your organization?
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🇨🇦 Toronto listeners! We’ll be setting the stage on fire with the opening keynote at SecureWorld Toronto on April 8th. And…we’ll be closing out the show with our signature event, the Cyber Pitch Battle Royale!
Register for the Cyber Pitch Battle Royale here
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Transcript
Buy or Build Talent: A Strategic Choice
00:00:00
Speaker
I said, well, what's our philosophy? Let's take a pause and let's rethink, like, you know, what are we trying to do here? Like, you know, um and I said, do we really want to buy or do we want to build talents? Like, what are our strengths as an organization?
00:00:14
Speaker
And our strength was training. And so I said, let's not go and try to compete with, you know, PWCs and the McKendys or, you know, other competitors in the space.
00:00:28
Speaker
let's fight Let's get strange renegades, as we call it. Let's find people who are, they have these unique strengths. And our job as an employer is to you know build that talent and train them well.
00:00:42
Speaker
That's scalable, right? um Talent, the market will always change, but you can build talent.
Introducing Jessica Andre and Her Vision
00:00:54
Speaker
Welcome back. It's your favorite cybersecurity podcast. This is Bare Knuckles and Brass Tacks, the cybersecurity podcast that tackles the human side of the industry. Trust, respect, everything in between. i am George Kay with the vendor side.
00:01:07
Speaker
I'm George, a chief information security officer. And today our guest is Jessica Andre and she is VP of people at risk 360. So this is the very first time actually what we've had somebody from the HR side of the house.
00:01:23
Speaker
And what an interview. i mean, you'll hear how we met her, but. She unloads like a complete cultural paradigm shift when it comes to how risk 360 thinks about sourcing talent and more importantly, cultivating that talent. They're not looking for unicorns out of the gate. They're looking for aptitude and they invest in their people. And it's just a fascinating model. And of course we get into the practicalities of it, but yeah, I mean, we could have gone on for hours for sure.
00:01:57
Speaker
I mean, you know, the justice company nickname is vibes,
Leadership and Stakeholder Investment
00:02:03
Speaker
right? She's the VP of, you know, she's, she's, she's, she's military veteran down in the States. She's clearly got that good leadership, good foundational trained leadership mentality in place.
00:02:16
Speaker
She gets her hands dirty. She goes out. She is the recruiter. She is the developer. She is the one that engaging with students, engaging with talent. She has made a way to make it fair.
00:02:27
Speaker
And she believes in investing in the stakeholder, not the shareholder. That is the company culture she is a part of. It was absolutely refreshing to hear her give us our perspective or give us her perspective.
00:02:40
Speaker
It was absolutely refreshing to hear her give their perspective on how to run a proper organization today.
Risk 360's Unique Talent Development Approach
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah. So if you are thinking about the culture of hiring or trying to look for more efficient ways to hold on to talent and retain it rather than churn and burn, which is really expensive, this is the episode for you. So let's get into it.
00:03:02
Speaker
Jess, welcome to the show. Thanks, George. Both Georges, thank you so much for having me on your show. Really excited to... have this opportunity to reconnect.
00:03:14
Speaker
I'm such an honor and privilege to be on the bare knuckles podcast. Yeah. We are thrilled to have you. So for our listeners, we met you at the SANS DMA awards. You were there with your outfit risk 360 up for company of the year. And it was a side conversation that we had.
00:03:31
Speaker
And I was like, wait, you're in HR. So you're VP of people. And we got to talking and you had what, shouldn't be, but what I consider to be a fairly revolutionary way of cultivating talent.
00:03:48
Speaker
And we just
Jessica's Career and Alignment with Risk 360
00:03:49
Speaker
spent a lot of our episodes in February talking to our guests about how they network, how they build their careers, what they are telling young people who are trying to enter the industry. So this feels like a very natural outgrowth of that conversation.
00:04:05
Speaker
And so you are on the vendor side. So by the rules of this show, the CISO will get first crack. But I just wanted to to set the context for the listeners and then we're looking forward to it.
00:04:18
Speaker
Yeah. So for for further context on that, um so like. At that show, George was there with his wife and like he was being cool and stuff. And me being just kind of a loser I am, i was waiting in line for tacos and like Jess was just there being awesome.
00:04:34
Speaker
And ah like anything else, and you're a fancy party with fancy people and you're not that fancy, you strike up a conversation. And you turned out to be pretty cool, as you also turned out to be an ex-Arm Forces member. So we had that in common.
00:04:48
Speaker
um And you, you know, had way too much emotional intelligence and comfort to be a pure cyber person. So i knew you were, like, normal. was like, okay, so this is, like,
Commitment to Internal Talent Growth
00:04:59
Speaker
what's going on with you? So I had to answer your first question, which is, you know, just, like, both of your stories. Here's kind of what I want map out with you first. Family seasons happen. Humorous.
00:05:10
Speaker
navigate that and realize I need to have the opportunity to be president and I have two young kids and it wasn't serving my lifestyle and my priorities my values. And then having the wherewithal to understand that the typical standards or approaches to TA that the industry had been doing since SAS 2.0, so like over 10 years ago. And it happened during that time. was a whole COVID pandemic hit. So there was a huge hiring degree. And I think it's a much more successful approach. So you talk about kind of like, okay, well, what's my next step? How you got there and then outline what is your overall methodology to finding, acquiring, and developing talent in our industry? And at the time, it was 20-person firm bootstrapped.
00:05:56
Speaker
And they said, hey, you know we're doing something great. I really wanted to go into technology, just seeing from the federal side, just... We're working and with technology is just a frustration I had. So being a part of innovation was exciting and invigorating to me. And I really wanted to make impact.
00:06:13
Speaker
Right. And I still wanted to serve. I think, George, a you can that resonates with you. Once you serve, you have this serving heart and mentality. And i really want to continue that just in a different capacity.
Board Investment in Employee Development
00:06:27
Speaker
So, you know, taking that, I started, and, you know, I was 360 as an analyst. It did not dawn on me to go into um h r i did, you know, I did in the army, you know, did not even think twice about when I pivoted, I would go into HR. I was like, no, I need to do this consulting thing.
00:06:46
Speaker
um So I started working my way up as an analyst and, and you know, doing audits with clients, understanding this, you know, the security information security space.
00:06:58
Speaker
But then i noticed this need from people, right? And I think that's just the heart of servant and community. And I realized we weren't acquiring talent quickly. Like you grew at the time we were 20. 2022, we grew double in size.
00:07:15
Speaker
We were running to bunch of road back where, you know, we don't have the brand and traction. So I couldn't, you know at that time it was an employer's market. It was a time where it was the, you know, and the great recession or not the recession, the great, I'm sorry, a quiet, a resonation. Yeah, it's a great resonation period.
00:07:37
Speaker
And so we're you know, we're just not acquiring the talent that we needed. it And so we even been entertain recruiters. I never went through talent acquisition, especially not in the private sector. So I did a lot of research.
00:07:51
Speaker
And finally I pause and I, you know, studying for my, my certs to become a specialist in this to me, I'm like, look, I'm going to, and I better become a craftsman. It's one of our values. I was 360. And I said, well, what's our philosophy?
00:08:03
Speaker
Let's take a pause and let's rethink like, you know, what are we trying to do here? like you know um And they said, do we really want to buy or do we want to build talents? Like what are our strengths as an organization?
00:08:16
Speaker
And our strength was training. And so I said, let's not go and try to compete with you know the PWCs McKendies or other competitors in the space.
00:08:26
Speaker
you know other competitors in the space let's spot Let's get strange renegades, as we call it. Let's find people who are, they have these unique strengths.
00:08:38
Speaker
And our job as an employer is to um you know build that talent and train them well. That's scalable, right? um Talent, the market will always change, but you can build talent.
00:08:51
Speaker
And so, I'm sorry. I have to ask, because because you know as a CISO, I manage teams. I've been managing teams my whole career. How did you convince your I guess your board or your rest of your C-suite to make the investment? because when you say training and when you say actual development and talent and finding you know renegades, that means you're making a fiscal and ah and a time of material investment in those personnel.
00:09:20
Speaker
And presumably you're you're then like the business advantage of it and not not to just break it down into numbers, but yeah you're in the business of numbers. You're taking folks who you could probably get at not say lesser market value, but, you know, folks who probably wouldn't be demanding the rates of a big four.
00:09:39
Speaker
giving them an opportunity and then providing them the investment and training to then develop them into their peak of potential, right? So I really, wonder how did you make that business case and convincingly get your board or your CEO to let you invest in training?
Influencing Industry Practices
00:10:00
Speaker
Because I find nowadays organizations, unless it's project specific, procurement specific or RFP specific,
00:10:09
Speaker
They're not going to put you on a course like you got go to go like Cisco, like switching and routing course, whatever, because you're doing a Cisco contract or Apollo course, you're an Apollo the deployment of a firewall. But you seem to have convinced them in the value of investing in just general training and development and employees. And that seems to be a lost art in organizations. Now, how did you do it? 100%.
00:10:30
Speaker
hundred percent So luckily for me, I would say it actually was one of the core values of RISC 360 from one of the co-founders who was in the military, CW, and his name is Christian White. And he said, hey, like, one of our values is craftsmanship. And so he actually, before I arrived to RISC 360, it was like all about development.
00:10:53
Speaker
Which is, you know, so was in within our values. It was embedded within our culture to train. However, like you've communicated, it's really hard to do. takes a lot of time and an investment, right, to execute it well.
00:11:08
Speaker
So that's where I put a lot of my energy into. It's like, okay, yeah, and you have this great idea. But now we have to really do it. Right. It's not it's one thing to promise. It's one thing to do it well.
00:11:19
Speaker
And so what we did is like we sat down, we created like different content. And it's so it's a lot of our philosophy. we have a bunch of free content. We produce our 360 already.
00:11:31
Speaker
And you just take that. You're like, OK, like now we can build a training program. Like that's one of our big goals in the future is like, hey, like we want like really want to create amazing like a RISC 360 Academy, like giving back to right our community because we all, you I always say there's two differences, right? There's one thing there's accessibility and that and that that does not equate to aptitude, right? Like some people just don't have to the access.
00:11:55
Speaker
But that doesn't mean they're not going to be great employees. And I think we've been able to showcase that, whether through my own story or people that we've hired. We've hired people who were CEOs in a smaller company and never touched cybersecurity, but they had a great mindset.
00:12:10
Speaker
And you have to give them those tools, you know, and you're seeing that in today's market, especially like, Our skill sets are rapidly changing on what we need based off the technology.
00:12:23
Speaker
um Our world is ever revolving with new threats. So as us, as employers, we have the responsibility to continue to see
Interview Process: Aligning Goals and Culture
00:12:32
Speaker
upskill. And so we challenge everyone. and It is within our culture.
00:12:35
Speaker
like You have to get new certs. We pay for it, by the way. We pay for all certifications. your You get a budget. um And if you need more and it makes alliance with the business, we pay for it.
00:12:49
Speaker
We have our own leadership development training program the called the Journeymen that you know I've launched as our third cohort going through. And these are rising leaders and giving them a shift in mentality and the tools to become really successful leaders because they are going to make this the biggest impact in the organization.
00:13:08
Speaker
So I was very fortunate that I had great two co-founders that believed in it. But yes, it took a lot of, you know, i did have some great, not great, but I did have some numbers to prove, you know, why this would work because you saw the tenure of people who were experienced.
00:13:28
Speaker
And people who were, you know, I would say right at college or non-traditional, right? And you saw being a part of their growth, you gain that loyalty in them, right? You just gotta be able to assess that.
00:13:41
Speaker
the things that are hard, that that is like where you're seeing like SaaS products. Like I look at every resume. I know if people sounds crazy, but I've always looked at every resume because of my own story and my own journey that like, Hey, like, you know, they're putting themselves out there. Like we owe it to them and time and energy to review each resume. Cause that's how important it is to to us as an organization to hire the right people.
00:14:07
Speaker
And no one's going to know that more than people internal to the company. So that's why we don't hire recruiters. I use a recruiter. I have one strategic, but I don't use recruiters because no one's going to be as um invested into the organization as internally as we are. Right.
00:14:23
Speaker
Because I genuinely care, genuinely care about everyone who comes in um and I want them to thrive. don't want to know their story. I'm just going to say like, I mean, damn.
00:14:40
Speaker
yeah The most amazing pair there's so much to to pull. but I'm going to say one thing and I'll get to my question. So you had said something about like we've got to decide whether we're going to buy or build talent.
00:14:53
Speaker
Right. And that we cannot compete with the PwC's, the McKinsey's of the world. Right. So you take a look at the competitive landscape and you're like, what is our unique value proposition as a company?
00:15:07
Speaker
And we've said countless times on the show in terms of marketing or sales, like when you're looking over your shoulder, like why are you trying to copy people who have a budget that's like 8X what you can hope for? Like you if you're always trying to play it on their rules, like you're kind of always behind.
00:15:26
Speaker
um So that's just something I want to call out, like that idea that you looked internally. Also very refreshing that you have this this value set and this DNA in the company.
00:15:37
Speaker
But you've spoken a little bit about how you started to to build this case, both in the business and then and and how to um change the approach.
00:15:49
Speaker
But can you talk a little bit more? You said something here about you noticed the tenure difference between people you have cultivated and you have gained that loyalty versus you know people who are more experienced.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah. Can you, I guess I want to ask, can you talk us through what is it that you're looking for?
00:16:13
Speaker
that you can see, ah this person is going to be an asset to this company. You've mentioned skill set, but I'm also curious if there are how you test for kind of the intangible traits. You know, George and I have always said, like, we value curiosity, we value initiative, but these are, it's notoriously hard to like tease that out in an interview, for example.
00:16:36
Speaker
So what are the, I guess, the glimmers of the gold that you're looking for, where you're like, this is a person who I'm going to place this bet on.
Key Candidate Qualities
00:16:45
Speaker
So there are four pillars or four, you know, things that I look for. and as I call it, the individual value proposition. So one is their skills, their credibility, their unique strength and goals. Well, how do you get that?
00:17:02
Speaker
Right. A resume is just of a glimpse. Right. So it's really the interview process. So when I look at resumes, for example, or applications, I not only look at their resume, but I look at their LinkedIn.
00:17:13
Speaker
I want to see how active they are. You know, how well are they communicating? Because i we're professional services. So it's really essential that you have that skill set, that of communication writing skills, right?
00:17:25
Speaker
But in my interview, the one thing I always start with is why are you here? And I've heard of many CEOs doing that as well. And why that is so important to me and why that question will give me so much answers is, you know, what's your motivation? Right.
00:17:42
Speaker
You know, what why are you here? Because I think so much of is intrinsic most motivation. Again, the aptitude, right? um Like, why are you here? do And I want to see, like, they've done their research.
00:17:54
Speaker
So you're going to become prepared to work every day, right? So it's that intangible of, like, hey, you have developed that value in yourself that you're always going to prepared. Like that's not something you can't teach that.
00:18:06
Speaker
And that's really hard in any employer. And I'm sure throughout your careers, you had that employee or team member. You're like, gosh, like I just need you to be prepared, show up to work. Right. um And I want to know what their goals are.
00:18:20
Speaker
Because i want to make sure that like, this is going to be online, the intrinsic motivation. We just need to give you the tools and and the opportunities, but everything else they have to come up with. Right. So those interviews are really important for me. um And that's kind of the first question I asked. And that first question will help me tailor my,
Unique Stories Over Standardization
00:18:40
Speaker
my interview. we don't have, there's different philosophies in interviewing. Some people do cookie cutter. That means you ask the same questions, right? that You don't want, you want to be consistent.
00:18:49
Speaker
I don't believe in that because every everyone's story is so different. If you do that, you may miss an opportunity to really see that individual shine. right I know George A. comes from a different story, and so do you. We all have different stories of what got us here.
00:19:04
Speaker
and we just needed that opportunity, but we needed someone who believed in us. I think that's our strength is that like we're giving the tools and the opportunities for people who really deserve it.
00:19:15
Speaker
But the only way I can get that is just, hey, why are you here? And that's really what I use to help guide us or kind of assess the candidate. Nice. Yeah, it's very, ah very Simon Sinek start with why of you.
00:19:31
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
Founders' People-Centric Culture
00:19:32
Speaker
It's very much the why, right? And you've And to be honest, like, this is where I experience, like, they're like, oh, like, they're like, oh, I just, I've been doing this long enough. I know it. And I'm like, okay, great.
00:19:44
Speaker
You've been doing it. There's always going to be more money somewhere else. Like, I need to know why it's worth our time to invest in you. Right? Like, why are you here? Like, tell me. Well, that's good. So, like, I would call it out to the listeners. Like, you have said, it's our responsibility as Risk360. And you just said invest versus investing.
00:20:04
Speaker
I think where I see a lot of friction these days is the job is treated as a transaction, and right? And it isn't an investment of time and attention, which of course it is. If you hire somebody and you want them to succeed, you give them the tools to succeed. And if you don't, if you're just like, great, you're here, go. And you're like, go where, how, right? And you don't invest, but you're like, you signed this, you came to work.
00:20:28
Speaker
It's so it's a weaker relationship. Anyway, I'm keying in on the words that you're using, which are very different than what we hear with a lot of other hiring practices. And I'm kind of left. So if you only want ask for a context, um are you like one of the early employees in the company?
00:20:46
Speaker
Yeah, so I was number twenty two. and um first female of the company. but yeah Yeah, so yeah, I mean, and we again, we didn't have like a people, we call me vibes, by the way, they don't call me, reference me as HR, call me vibes, the vibes like function, so I had to build it up. But yeah, and was in the early, you know, we were we were founded or established in 2016, so joined in 2020, so four years later.
00:21:17
Speaker
OK, so and your co-founders, the co-founders are all they're all vets, right? Only one is. And the other one is, you know, experienced that from a cybersecurity standpoint. But yeah, the other one is military vet.
00:21:33
Speaker
what What I ask is this and and here's why. And I parallel it a bit to an experience I'm currently having in Canada. I find, and you can give me your take on it, please.
00:21:45
Speaker
The start with why question and the success that you've had running your model and your organization, I think if it comes down to the why of the founders and of the ownership group.
00:21:58
Speaker
Because I think that's honestly what sets the culture more than anything else. And what I'm hearing from you is you have a group in charge up top from the start who are doing this not just for gross margin, not just for EBITDA, not just for P&L.
00:22:21
Speaker
And because their motives, and and that's always a motive in business in general, that's that's why we play the game. But like, it's not the be all end all. And,
00:22:33
Speaker
I feel that their intrinsic motivations are around, like you said, developing quality, loyal talent with integrity and giving them an opportunity to thrive in a location that gives them consistency, unlike what the present market generally provides.
00:22:54
Speaker
Would you agree, however, that this difference is really about what the founders and and the I would assume they're still the majority owners as well, what they set as the culture?
00:23:06
Speaker
Because what I've experienced in most of my organizations are profit margin driven leadership essentially, right? And so occasionally in that style of leadership, sometimes good slips out almost by accident.
00:23:23
Speaker
But you know decisions are made based on meeting arbitrary growth minds or growth goals or profit goals. And oftentimes, good people have to lose their jobs and lose their opportunities because somebody who barely contributes the day-to-day delivery and productivity of the business wants to take home you know a bigger share than they did last quarter, last year.
00:23:52
Speaker
Do you believe that you know you guys are setting a model that used to be how we do business maybe decades ago? When corporations and and, you know, I make this argument all the time and i don't want to get too philosophical or about this. i don't want to have a full on critique of Milton on the show.
00:24:13
Speaker
But back in the day, organizations valued the stakeholder and not the shareholder. And I fundamentally think that is what's wrong with our economy today. That is what's made society poison.
00:24:27
Speaker
Right. You guys seem to value the stakeholders of your staff, of your personnel. Would you say that that's the big fundamental difference in your approach? Yes, absolutely. so even before I got there, we have this flywheel the co-founders
Creative Talent Management in a Bootstrapped Environment
00:24:42
Speaker
came up with. It's and it's by Jim Collins book, Good to Great, which talks about, you know, why do great organizations and all their research.
00:24:51
Speaker
And for us, it starts with people. High and great, strange renegades, building them to craftsmen. And through that, you create, you know, elite products and an individual brand. So it starts with people first. And they are the heart and center of everything that we do.
00:25:05
Speaker
Oh, by the way, i forgot to mention, we're still bootstrapped. Yeah, that's a big difference. That's what I was going to clue in on. yeah And so, like, we had to be creative. And honestly, it'd be...
00:25:19
Speaker
you know Especially in a competitive market at the time, you know we're seeing ah a shift. right But like we had to be creative. I didn't have the luxury to just spend money. had to be very intentional with every dollar we spent, which is also why I cut out the recruiters. It was... it was you know It cost me too much. Right. And so um instead, it allowed us to be creative and innovative with this frugal mindset of truly investing in people, because that's really what's sustainable.
00:25:52
Speaker
You give them the tools. They develop a deep knowledge into the organization. um And oh by the way, they believe in the mission. So yes, it has, the co-founders really started that and that's really what attracted me to RISC 360.
00:26:08
Speaker
But I do believe what you're seeing in today's market, I mean, I don't just blame stakeholders or you know the co-founders. I believe in people like myself that need to advocate, that need to address, like, hey, there's a problem. I also have partnerships with Georgia Tech, standing TNM technology and management. So we started this program back in 2022.
00:26:31
Speaker
And I had to like work every freaking every other week, like going on campus because I did not have the brand. I did not have the brand. And I would just sit down with students and I would just tell them about my company. I would share their story. I'd be like, you tell me what, you know what are you looking for an employer? Tell me, because that's the biggest way. Like I can think all these things. kind of Organizations can think i just need to pay them money. Right. Right.
00:26:55
Speaker
But you're not hearing from the actual people, your actual key, like you mentioned, your stakeholders, like, what's your need? What are you looking for? um How do I cut through the noise? How do I elevate our voice and our brands? I had to hustle.
00:27:09
Speaker
I would tell you today we're one of their strongest partners, especially as a smaller firm. you know that All their other partners are big big companies and with multiple sub-enterprises.
00:27:22
Speaker
And we've been we now we have two capstone teams. We are able to convert interns and capstone teams into full-time, especially within the Georgia Tech like female demographics.
00:27:34
Speaker
um But yeah, requires a lot of time and energy, but I'm super proud. um And I think, yes, it it was their vision and I just executed their vision.
00:27:46
Speaker
are Hey, listeners, if you dig the snark, the stories and the big swings we take, we'd appreciate your support. You can now become an official supporter of the show. You can send us a one time gift or sign up as a member to provide ongoing support. Memberships start for as little as one dollar per month. Just follow the link in the show notes.
00:28:09
Speaker
Each membership tier comes with a unique set of benefits, including exclusive discounts to the BKBT swag shop and even advisory services for your team. So really, for less than you'd pay for one cup of coffee per month, you can support the show.
00:28:25
Speaker
It covers our hosting fees, helps us make cool swag, and it lets us know that what we're doing is valuable to you. Many thanks to listener Elizabeth Ramirez for her recent pledge of support. We'd love to have yours too.
00:28:39
Speaker
Now, back to the show.
00:28:43
Speaker
Well, that actually takes us to the next question. So i want to change tack here and move into some more sort of practical or brass tacks, as we say on the show, advice. so It's going to be hard, I think, to replicate a lot of what you have. There's like some very, very clearly special sauce at RISC 360. But let's say somebody is listening to this episode and they're like, oh, I have been trying to make this case internally as well.
00:29:15
Speaker
um I don't get why people don't understand how burn and churn of employees is just like crazy. man, what a capital burn. When you're vc backed and you have to move these people, like I don't understand that's
Building a Business Case for Talent Investment
00:29:27
Speaker
a real problem. Also, the big dream of early stage startups when you join is they give you a bunch of equity and ideally you get to follow the rocket ship. But if it's A lot of people don't get to that because they end up falling off either dissatisfaction, whatever. So let's say there is another person out there who's like, yes, this is the philosophy that I have been thinking of, but I've been struggling to like make the cultural change here.
00:29:52
Speaker
Short of being able to swap out the founders, which we most cannot do. i guess, Jess, I want to ask you like, If they wanted to do this tomorrow, where would they start? And I want to give it in two parts.
00:30:05
Speaker
How do they build the business case? And then like, could you also talk a little bit about how they might go about building the program as, you as you did ah in terms of the the hiring program?
00:30:19
Speaker
So I'll start with the business case. You know, what I would advise someone is one, look at your retention. Retention is key to the HR metrics and people function, right? What's your retention?
00:30:33
Speaker
What is the turn and burn? Like you said, what's the capital? You know, you start with, you know, start of the year to end of the year and how many people stay. That's when you can identify, like you're putting a lot of time and money and resources into people, right? And so what's working? Notice some patterns and trends, right?
00:30:52
Speaker
So I think that's a a great way to start investigating and start building your business case, doing some surveys, right? What's the culture like? Because there's a strong indications of like, hey, this is not sustainable. Like this is not going to work.
00:31:06
Speaker
And I always say the market might be in your favor today, as we're seeing, but that's not always going to be the case, right? So I would say those are like, that's how you're going to build a business case. Get some data.
00:31:18
Speaker
you know, um and create some, you know, your ah ROI into that as well. Right. So what, what does it tough you know cost to recruit,
Compensation and Growth Transparency
00:31:26
Speaker
to train? And you add all all up to someone's salary and like, what's your, you know, ah ROI.
00:31:33
Speaker
So I would say that let's start with there first. Cause in the end, money talks and so in time, and so, you know, surround yourself with those factors. as to like this holistic approach, right? And I know that there's certain advantages I have, um you know, but here's like the four things. And I tell this to other organizations as I kind of do roadshows or keynote speaking. And there's four things. And this is based off of like a Harvard harvard business review.
00:32:03
Speaker
um and I always say, here's four things is material offerings, growth and development, noble purpose, and connection and community.
00:32:14
Speaker
um And how I started is, you know, yes, the first thing is dollars, right? How can we, what's the market? And even then i will break it down. There's a philosophy when it comes to pay.
00:32:26
Speaker
So for example, George A or how do you guys do compensation? What's your philosophy? How do you guys... you know, to say, okay, here's your base salary. That's it. Like what's, what's your data and like, what's your company's philosophy and do you do adjustments and what's the, what's the, um what am i looking for? What is the um cadence for that?
00:32:52
Speaker
yeah that's, that's, it's a difficult question to ask because again, I'm, it's a, it's a, it's not a big PE shop, it's a family run PE organization that owns us. And my industry, like specifically like online dating has, has seen ah bit of a recessionary turn in the last two years. If you look at like,
00:33:12
Speaker
quarterly reports coming out of Match Group, coming out of Bumble, like you'll see massive double digit losses across the board. I mean, I think Bumble in the last year have literally lost 50% of gross profitability alone, right? and that's just based on all slew of factors. But as a result of that, widespread layoffs, and when there's widespread layoffs, there's no inflationary adjustments, there's no pay raises, staff freezes, right?
00:33:38
Speaker
it's it's an extremely harsh climate because we're in a state um that's cutely called keep the lights on which is basically do more and more and more with less and less and less and i don't i don't blame like my executive team for that like we we have the numbers that we have to meet and that is the nature of the business i do wish however that more organizations approach the business like yours does um Because I think it can be very, very difficult sometimes to keep people motivated and keep people invested.
00:34:13
Speaker
And I know that's, you know, that's something that ah we strive to try to do quite a bit because sometimes, you know, when when immediate capital isn't available for, you know, upfront investments for a lot of things that maybe folks want to do or courses they want to attend or conferences they want to go to.
00:34:30
Speaker
You really have to find a way to make the work experience as enjoyable as possible. ah The brilliance of my shop is we are fully remote. They actually ah cut the lease off in their office, the fancy downtown office, Toronto. It was a beautiful office um during COVID.
00:34:49
Speaker
And we are operating all over the world. I am personally overseeing personnel in at least you know a dozen different countries at any given time. And you know we work a four-day work week.
00:35:02
Speaker
We have minimal micromanagement. We're a delivery-based project operation with ah with a tight CICD. So because you know we don't have necessarily the money available that a lot of other organizations and other industries would have, we've adapted by giving people as much quality and control over their own lives as possible.
00:35:24
Speaker
And I found that that's been the balance, but that, and honestly, that's the biggest reason why I'm still there. ah You cannot find, like, as a CISO, given the year I've had, given the the career I've had, I could go to a lot of other places and make exponentially more than what I make now.
00:35:43
Speaker
I will never, ever find a place that affords me the quality of life that I have where I'm at. Right. And I think from what you're saying, you know, organizations really need to look at if they can't pay their people more, how can they give their people more freedom, more choice and more reasons to be loyal?
00:36:05
Speaker
Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah, absolutely. So. ah Everything, even our benefits, rely on just some sort of values. I can tell you the why to our policies or you know benefits. It always goes back to a correlated to a value.
00:36:23
Speaker
So you're right. Let's say for pay. Let's talk about because that's always the biggest conversation right at and within our organization because the biggest expense you have is people. And so for us, my philosophy, and this was still when it was hot, like it was a hot employees market, was I pay based off labor.
00:36:43
Speaker
I do not pay based off geographics, like location. So if you're in California, i don't care. Like here's here's the skill set. So that's where the skills, I look at skills. I assess each candidate's based off your certification experience or your range should be.
00:36:59
Speaker
right And I do that with some data, outsourced data that I use to assess the market. So I say cost of labor. i want to see what is your skill set. where i know By the way, that's motivation for people.
00:37:11
Speaker
That becomes a motivation. Hey, you can have self-agency. I'm all about giving people self-agency and transparency. Here's what I need to see from you. I need to see you acquire more skill sets.
00:37:22
Speaker
Okay, AI is a big thing. Or maybe a framework is a bigger, you know, or technology or something. And you need to gain that. And if you do, here's what I can do from you from ah ah above. So at the end of each year, I give everyone a total comp statement.
00:37:38
Speaker
It's customized. It's line item saying here by next year, here's what you're looking for an adjustment. um And like with benefits and all of that. And so I do that because I want to create that transparency and I make sure managers are equipped with tools and I give them ranges. Here's based off their scope of responsibilities and skill sets that you've communicated to me. Here's where they can be, right?
00:38:02
Speaker
Based off the labor market. Hey, maybe software engineers, we saw a dip. We did see a dip, right, in the need and skill set, right? So we really need to start elevating them. What's the latest thing? Oh, um AI, or, you know, you saw more architecture coming
Purpose and Connection in Engagement
00:38:19
Speaker
into play. Okay, well, what's that skill set we need we need to acquire?
00:38:23
Speaker
You know, how can we give them a runway? I know, by the way, it's good for them too, right? um So that's how I negotiate. And that's our philosophy when it comes to pay. um Because there's negative consequences to those decisions. If you try to compete against California, you know, you it's just hard. You can't. um And how do you maintain that consistency? um But yeah, i always say like growth and development, like you alluded to, Georgia, it's not all about money.
00:38:51
Speaker
And that's where you really need to make it a human experience. and tailor it to the type of talent you're trying to acquire. i want people that want the luxury or it can operate remotely. Some people can't.
00:39:02
Speaker
Some people cannot remote. You know, they need more hands-on. mean, that's okay, right? But this is not the environment you can thrive because I need you to be independent. I want you to be able to thrive. I want you to bring your innovative ideas because we're still a team of 48 people.
00:39:19
Speaker
Like I don't have contractors everywhere. Like it is all hands in. Like my my product team is only four engineers, like super smart engineers.
00:39:31
Speaker
It's small, right? So we don't have the luxury to have layers of personnel just to do one task. Like you are you were responsible, but that's also empowering because you can create so much change.
00:39:43
Speaker
So we try to give them all of that that aligns with their normal purpose. Like that's theirs. So I try to get to know everyone's story, you know, and try to remind them. So throughout the different training programs we do, like we but we always reset, like, what's your story?
00:39:56
Speaker
Like, why are you here? Because we always have to remind each other, like, why are you here? What's your purpose? You know, because that's, I want to keep a motivating them or reminding them, like, hey, like,
00:40:07
Speaker
We all have seasons and dips and we can't control the economy. We can't. Like that's out of our control. But what can we control? We can work hard, like play our parts, right? And like continue to thrive and continue to make profits. So, I do a little bit of marketing and I do a little bit of everything. And I love it. Like that's just type of talents we try to acquire.
00:40:30
Speaker
And then connection and community. We're highly connected, whether it's going to Sands and traveling to D.C., meeting great people to you know, trying to we try to do a lot of um I talk around campus, try to help students or. veteran organizations just to help. Like I want people to be able to thrive. I want to give them those opportunities.
00:40:50
Speaker
And I think that really matters to people, like having a a noble purpose, but actually having that connection. And as an organization, we always try to do something. We call it, you know, um great events, but we always do something. Every quarter we fly everyone here.
00:41:04
Speaker
By the way, we fly everyone to the headquarters. we We show them our books. We call it open books management because we want. Oh, wow. We want to create that transparency.
Open-Book Management and Mission Alignment
00:41:14
Speaker
like we want to net We want to help them understand, like here's the goal, and this is what your goals are contributing to the overall mission and objective of the firm.
00:41:23
Speaker
So we're very transparent with our books. There's one caveat on that, though. We have the same thing as ours. We have like what's called a dashboard. oh Yeah. And it gives us live updates to all of our revenue, which then becomes like a crack addiction for everyone. i literally like I start my day off looking at what the rev is the day before, and that tells me whether or not it's going to be a good day or not. like I know my CEO's mood based on that. The weather vane.
00:41:50
Speaker
If we're having a dip, I'm just like... I have made decisions on whether or not to ask about certain things or ask for certain things based on revenue trending. So you are right.
00:42:00
Speaker
Be transparent. You should be transparent. But bear in mind, there's psychological consequences. Oh, sure. yeah and yeah Yeah. And there are some days it's not great. Right. Our stories, we don't it every day, by the way. I don't think I have the energy for that. We do it every quarter and we are able to like talk much more reasonable. Yeah. Much more reasonable. Okay. What's the story to the number? We can rethink it, have some time to like collaborate to making sure the message is clear, um you know, to the team. But yeah, that's a little intense even for me. Yeah.
00:42:36
Speaker
Well, Jess, that's a great place to wrap on community and connection. thank you so much for the time. I mean, i feel like we could go for hours. could have gone forever here. There's so much. I'm sure we'll have you back on. We've got to think about a lot of this, but i I really love the perspective. I love the idea of I don't think I've heard of people talk about the ah ROI of hires.
00:42:58
Speaker
You know, I think they see talent as an expense at the bottom of the P&L. They're not thinking the other way around. But that question gets put to sales and marketing all the time.
00:43:10
Speaker
You know, you're given this much money you spent this. What did you bring back? I really like the idea that, you know we put this much
Closing Remarks and Call for Support
00:43:17
Speaker
into these people. Like what being able to measure, like what are we getting out of that is is really incredible.
00:43:22
Speaker
So, yeah, but thank you for taking the time late at night to to sit with us and walk us through this. ah We were really looking forward to this. I mean, we met back in December. So thank you again for hopping on.
00:43:33
Speaker
Yeah. And thank you for being a really cool person and and a wonderful friend to have made in a room full of strangers. You were absolutely one of the most welcoming people there. So thank This is the power of tacos, my man. oh my God. Yeah.
00:43:46
Speaker
Yeah. When the next 10 years are in Atlanta, like, grab drinks and chat more. But thank you so much. Such a pleasure to speak with you both. Love what you're doing for the community as well. So we'll talk soon. Thank you both.
00:44:05
Speaker
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00:44:18
Speaker
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