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Best of: Supporting the Queer Community in Cybersecurity
91 Plays1 day ago
This week, we're returning to the original inspiration for our Pride in Cyber campaign!
Angela Brown and Amber DiPippa join the podcast to discuss their scholarship initiative supporting LGBTQ+ individuals pursuing cybersecurity.
George K and George A talk to Ang and Amber about:
- The scholarship's origins and its goals for supporting LGBTQ+ cybersecurity students
- The realities and financial hardships unfairly leveled at queer communities
- Practical advice for authentic allyship and community support
🏳️🌈👊⚡️The Pride in Cyber collection is now available in the BKBT Merch Store. ALL PROFITS from all sales of pride merch for the entire month of June will be donated to Ang and Amber's scholarship fund. Shop today at https://bkbtpodcast.shop/collections/pride-in-cyber
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Transcript
Fostering Allyship and Inclusion
00:00:00
Speaker
Like see something, say something. That's, that's allyship. Um, talk about people when they're not in the room in a positive way, yeah you know, elevate them, look for the weirdos, look for the people that are disenfranchised, look for people that are different than, than what you look like and sound like and bring them to the pizza party.
00:00:21
Speaker
That's it.
Guest Introduction: Ange and Amber
00:00:34
Speaker
Ange and Amber, welcome to Bare Knuckles and Brass Tanks. Hello. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us.
Pride Month Initiatives
00:00:41
Speaker
Yeah, so you are here because you started a scholarship, which we're going to talk about.
00:00:46
Speaker
But as part of Pride Month in the Bare Knuckles and Brass Tack store, we are selling t-shirts and all profits from all sales this month are going to organizations like yours.
Scholarship in Memory of Catherine
00:00:59
Speaker
So let us start with some context setting. Tell us about the scholarship. Let's start with... What is it for? Who is it for? And then we'll go into the origins.
00:01:12
Speaker
Yeah. Hey, first of all, George, thank you guys so much, both Georges, for what you're doing. This really is going to make some significant impacts for people. um So my wife, Amber, and I started a scholarship in honor of a friend of ours. Her name was Catherine. And Catherine was a DFIR analyst. um So she was in cyber.
00:01:35
Speaker
And unfortunately, ah couple years ago, I think we're going on the third year. um She hit a particularly rough patch and um committed suicide.
00:01:47
Speaker
um And so, you know, we hit the one year anniversary and um my wife and both, you know, we just knew that we had to make that day something different. And so we thought, well, what better way to do it than to honor her legacy and then also provide an opportunity for people who were you know trying to come into cybersecurity, something arguably that she she really, really enjoyed and loved um and give people an opportunity to come in and and have a little bit of the financial burden taken off of of their backs.
00:02:19
Speaker
um She had gone, she was a mechanical engineer um And then pivoted into cybersecurity after that and was really big on education. And so um I think she would be like how partially amused and tickled that we're doing something like this. So I think she'd be proud.
Scholarship for LGBTQIA Individuals
00:02:36
Speaker
That is a that is incredible. And the scholarship, as I understand, supports both undergraduate and graduate studies. Is that correct? Yes. Yep. And this year we're actually focusing on LGBTQIA individuals.
00:02:52
Speaker
And so either undergraduate or graduate, it is college specific because it's going through bold.org. That's like bold as in you bold a font. Right. um And so ah you can apply for that. We actually, we were able to raise $2,000 and then received a really awesome donation of another $2,000. So we're going to be able to give away four $1,000 scholarships already this year.
00:03:18
Speaker
um And so we're we're stoked. I mean, it it's a specifically, we're really looking for people who have either experienced some type of homelessness or um who maybe had been excommunicated from their families and and are working and having to put themselves through school.
00:03:35
Speaker
um But hey, me to you, if someone rolls through with a great, you know, ah a great um resume and and a great kind of answer to the the question that we have, it's kind of fair game for anyone that fits kind of those really loose contexts.
00:03:51
Speaker
Nice. All right. That's some great background. I will kick it over to the CISO and we'll ah we'll keep exploring. All right.
Identity and Career Success
00:04:00
Speaker
First of all, guys, I really I think the work you guys are doing is is quite noble and beautiful.
00:04:06
Speaker
um And then Angela, I've you at least for me, like i know you're much closer with ah George K, but um I have seen you around kind of the our periphery for our i I think since we started the show, you have been a supporter since we started the show. um So I really appreciate actually getting to sit down and talk to you.
00:04:29
Speaker
um I think, you know, it's beautiful kind of... like what you're doing in terms of community, because I think you're one of the one of the few folks who have legitimately made it as a practitioner.
00:04:44
Speaker
You've made it as someone who's earned their street cred, you know, and you do real operational work. And I think for folks in in the community, they need to see someone like you.
00:04:57
Speaker
They need someone like you existing and being successful. And they need see someone like you being proud of being yourself. Like you're not hiding it, you're who you um And then I think there's a great beauty in that as well. And I kind of want to know to to start, you're a very strong person. It's clear that you are very much assured in yourself and who you Have there ever been points in your career where you've doubted that or you've had to hide that or felt like you need to hide who you are for the sake of your own success? And how did you deal with that?
00:05:31
Speaker
You know, I think personally, I've been really fortunate. Amber actually might have a better story even than I do on that um because we do live in Texas. So we're technically be fired for being gay.
00:05:43
Speaker
um For me, I mean, I've i've been um visibly, obviously gay since I was a senior in high school, since about 17 or 18 years old. um And so I've i've faced... um I faced some discrimination because of that, but really in the workplace, I was really careful. um i i went and you know worked at Starbucks for five years, moved into Apple. i've I've tried to base my career around companies and organizations that
00:06:16
Speaker
um show that they are an ally to the community as well. um Now, that being said, you know, it is it is tough being a female in any technical space. You really i mean, ah thank you so much for the kind words. I i feel like um I ah try every day to put my money where my mouth is and show that I'm technical, you know, as organized as I am, I'm technical.
00:06:39
Speaker
um And so that really means a lot, George. i I appreciate that a lot. But Amber's got a little bit different of an experience than I do. Yes. So my first professional job, I will will say that my first professional job, um I did not feel like I could be truly my authentic self at that job for various reasons. But I think one of the things we don't talk about as much as that when you.
00:07:04
Speaker
when you are more feminine presenting, um there's a lot of assumptions made. So when people introduce themselves to me, or I'm getting to know co workers, it's like, Oh, ah what does your husband do?
00:07:16
Speaker
Oh, are you are you married? What's what's his name? You know, do you guys have kids, things like that. And, you know, you always have that moment where you're like, well, If correct them, I'm basically outing myself, right? How comfortable do I feel in that moment? And I've definitely had situations where I did not feel comfortable.
00:07:34
Speaker
um And I worked, you know, there for a long time, and I didn't ever talk about my personal life. And it was really hard. And I was nervous it would impact my career. Yeah.
00:07:45
Speaker
so So I have to ask, though, I mean, have you, when facing that situation, right, um have you had to kind of give ah sort of lie, like, where you where you say like, oh, like...
00:07:59
Speaker
No, I, I, have you ever had to that you're married basically to be like, no, I'm actually single. Or you've had to because of that anxiety, like I can tell you, um, within our space, uh, as an ethnic Palestinian, particularly in these times and with a lot of the folks that we sometimes have to deal with, um, it's just easier that I pray to God, it never comes up to be honest with you.
00:08:25
Speaker
yeah For or a lot of reasons I don't need to get into. But like, do you ever have to experience that?
00:08:32
Speaker
I think I've had those moments where I definitely could. um Thankfully, I've never had to lie or felt like I needed to lie. I've always tried to kind of skirt the conversation a little bit.
00:08:46
Speaker
This was back then, right? not Not today by any means. um But I would just say something like, oh, my spouse or oh, you know, I would just try and keep it pretty neutral or try and get past the conversation as quickly as possible.
00:08:59
Speaker
um Or just referred to we a lot like, oh, we moved here. Oh, we're doing this, you know, and just try to avoid, you know, pronouns and things like that. I thankfully have not had to do that in probably 10 years. And I'm very grateful for that.
00:09:14
Speaker
But yeah, actually her job just selected her to kind of be one of the front runners on a um employee resource group, LGBT employee resource group, which is super cool. Yeah. We're launching the LGBTQ ERG group at my company next month. And not only that, we're represented on a national scale with a larger organization. And so I'm kind of not only the the face of it internally now, ironically, I'm also going to be the face of our company on an LGBT national level, which is very cool.
Financial Challenges and Chosen Families
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah. So i want to pull on ah one of the threads because before we started recording, we were talking about how some of the things that may seem obvious to us may not be obvious to listeners. So I want you to elaborate a little bit on...
00:10:08
Speaker
why LGBTQIA plus people pursuing cybersecurity degrees may be in need of financial assistance for their education.
00:10:20
Speaker
You had said something as it relates to being quote unquote excommunicated from your family. I think that that feels like it should be in the past, but is a very, very much a present reality.
00:10:34
Speaker
No, yeah, it's present. um And we still know people to this day, you know, that that cannot, quote unquote, cannot go home, right? Or who have had to make a chosen family. And, you know, both of our families are very supportive have come to be very supportive um but I won't lie mean Amber and I have definitely created our own chosen family as well um because you know I think we we just strive to be around people that have experienced what we've experienced and had similar you know kind of um
00:11:15
Speaker
hardships and in their lives right so It's still very much a ah common occurrence that people can be kicked out of home ah even before they're 18, especially individuals that are trans.
00:11:28
Speaker
um And so for us, just being able to create some type of fund to help people pursue their dreams, um specifically in cyber because of Catherine's experience with the community, ah that was really important to us.
00:11:46
Speaker
um you know we can't We can't fix a lot of the things that are going on, but I'm hoping that you know maybe some of these students that have chosen cheaper universities like Western governors Governors or something like that, that they can really make a dent with a scholarship.
00:12:01
Speaker
um And we're we're just one of many, right? There are a lot of scholarships out there. i would encourage anyone that's listening to this to go on bold.org if you're a student and check it out.
Scholarship Resources: bold.org
00:12:11
Speaker
um Yeah, I didn't even know about that organization until you started formulating and I was like, well, this is an incredible resource. And they don't take any money.
00:12:21
Speaker
and they don't take any money Yeah, it's like tax deductible. I think they they do stuff with employee match as well. And they don't take any money. They're completely a nonprofit. That's brilliant.
00:12:32
Speaker
All right, well, we will take a short break and then we will be back with some brass tax flavored questions.
Pride Campaign and Cybersecurity Support
00:12:44
Speaker
Hey listeners, our Pride campaign is now underway. We are donating all profits from all sales of anything purchased in the Pride in Cyber collection from the BKBT merch store.
00:12:57
Speaker
That is, all profits are being donated from all sales in the month of June. And this year, we are extremely pleased to announce we have matching donation commitments from cybersecurity vendors Varonis and eset And what's more, Cyber Consultancy Reveal Risk will be giving away one paid internship for summer 2026 to one of the scholarship winners.
00:13:20
Speaker
So help us raise money for LGBTQ plus students in cybersecurity. Shop swag. Help students. It's that simple. Shop with the link in the show notes.
Navigating Identity Revelations
00:13:36
Speaker
Let's ask this then. Let's say... There's a difference between, and and again, I say this as like ah a cisgendered, like straight person. um We'll call out of my own for like personal curiosity too, but um for the sake of our listeners as well within your community,
00:13:55
Speaker
Let's say for folks who are, you know, perhaps questioning where they're at in life, right Because I know i know actually a fairly substantial number of people, I'm ah up here in Canada, and and are our perspective on on the LGBTQ plus community is um a little bit a little bit more progressive maybe than what you guys would probably deal with.
00:14:18
Speaker
And, you know, we get a lot of folks who are actually, you know, they get married, they have kids, they have full families. And then they discover later on in life, like in their 40s, that is not actually what they're about.
00:14:33
Speaker
And they have career implications that go with that. Like I know the one person, his his mother was a high school um vice principal.
00:14:44
Speaker
and she was well into her career and, uh, she, um, kind switched teams, you know, and it's, it's great. She has a very loving home and, and dude has two moms and they're super cool. And he still talks to his dad and stuff.
00:14:58
Speaker
Um, but I'm just wondering for folks out there who, you know, are, are in that kind of situation and they've had their, their families established and they have their established friend groups.
00:15:10
Speaker
Um, How do you go about that or how can you how can you go about that sort of change without it creating necessarily a negative impact on your career?
00:15:22
Speaker
Oh, man, that's a great question. Good question. You know, I think it comes back to, I think it comes back to community. um If you find yourself in that situation and and um certainly i I know a fair amount of people that um are trans and are going through something like that.
00:15:43
Speaker
ah I would start by just checking out your community first and making sure that you're in a safe space. If you're surrounded by people that you already know are not going to be accepting, if you're at a company that you know is not going to be accepting,
00:15:58
Speaker
ah that's that's a good time to take pause and start kind of putting together that to-do list, right? Because I would say that one of the big things that we do see in the queer community is homelessness. There's ah even ah something called the gay delay for young people who have had to go you know work and then go back to school in their thirties or a little bit older.
00:16:22
Speaker
um And so Take stock of what you've got going on right now and just make sure that you've got a good nest built.
Community Support for Identity Changes
00:16:32
Speaker
There are a lot of online communities. i actually run one called the Red Society Club, which George is a and member of, George Kay is.
00:16:39
Speaker
um There are a lot of of communities out there that ah are very welcoming for queer people or built specifically for queer people that you can find and and you know join up.
00:16:51
Speaker
um So I think personally, it starts with community. If if you're in a spot where you know you don't have the the the base foundation of support, it's going to be a lot harder. um I was fortunate when I was coming out as a young person to have friends that when I told them, they were like,
00:17:05
Speaker
yeah, we, we know, like we, that was always something you were. Um, and even my father was that way. Uh, he, you know, was like, yeah, well, i it's Tuesday. Like what else is new? Um, so that's, what that's where I would start with, I don't know, Amber, do you have a different idea about that?
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know, but a different idea, but i definitely agree on the community piece.
Aligning Career with Personal Values
00:17:30
Speaker
I think community, um, in your personal life is important, if' especially if you're going through a major change, you you need community, right? um And how, in terms of how to not allow that big change to affect your career, i think sometimes it's okay if it does, because if you find yourself at an organization that's not in alignment with your values and doesn't treat you as the authentic person that you are,
00:17:56
Speaker
why would you continue working there? Right. it It may be what it may be time to start looking for your next. Right. And we all know that growth your career is not linear. Right. All the time.
00:18:09
Speaker
And that might mean going to a different type of company or going into a different type of role or taking a step back. And it's OK, because at the end you have a community that supports you.
Learning from Career Setbacks
00:18:20
Speaker
and you're living your authentic self and you're still going to be successful in your career it and might just be look different than what you thought it was originally going to look like yeah we don't live in a household where we believe in failure um it's just a different lesson it's always a different lesson and george k knows this about me ah but i love the stoics and so i think a lot of it is perspective um you know if something negative happens in your career is that permanently bad doesn't have to be.
00:18:51
Speaker
um And that's, that's something that I kind of have taken for a long time. Shout out to a Ryan Halliday. I'm big fan of Stokes too. Yeah, so ah yeah behind the scenes, when I was in Austin for a conference, I specifically made the trip out to Bastrop, Texas to go to his store.
00:19:13
Speaker
Oh, no way. Yeah, because Ang knows that I'm such a fan as well. It felt like how i going to Mecca. And he was there, and I almost fanboyed, but he was like doing inventory shit, and I was like, don't bother the dude. Oh, he actually runs the store. He's done it. Yeah.
00:19:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I went there and grabbed a Georgia book and I was, they had signed copies and I was like, Oh, how much for the signed copies? were like, we don't charge anymore for a signed book. Like it's the same price. And I was like, that's so
Ange's Career Journey and Personal Growth
00:19:40
Speaker
cool. Um,
00:19:43
Speaker
um So you brought up careers twice in there, and I really want to pick at that. And I'm going to pick at your career, Ange, and then I'm going to ask your wife about it, because that's how we roll on this podcast. Just kind of surprise.
00:19:56
Speaker
um So I know personally that you started in one path and then you took... a very intentional pivot. Yes. Just want to give you some space to talk about that because as Amber said, we say path, we say career journey, but it's very much like the family circus kind of loops back on itself. times that Sometimes I think people are afraid to take a quote unquote step back, but you know, anyway, i want to give you some space to talk about that.
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah. Um, I have a weird career. I started off, um, my first job was on a sailboat at 15. Um, I sailed a black boat with red sails, a 55 foot schooner, and it's just kind of gone uphill from there. Um, so I've done everything from barista work to retail food service.
00:20:45
Speaker
Um, but with, with cyber specifically, um, I, I, uh, I had a type of brain surgery, a cranial decompression surgery um back in 2015.
00:20:57
Speaker
And in the year after that, like as the pain subsided from what I was used to, I was having daily migraines. I just knew I had to go back to school. So I went back to school, did cyber, and then through an internship, kind of landed in the world of deferred.
00:21:14
Speaker
And um I think I thrived there until I didn't. um I would probably politely call it like a crash and burn moment where I just I'd been going so hard 70 in 60, 70 hours a week, even 80 hours sometimes during the holidays ah and decided that it was time to do something else. So um I stopped.
00:21:38
Speaker
Tried to start a company with some friends. ah That was what was the end of 2022 when things got real weird. Was that right? Something like that. Yeah. I mean, friend of mine talking about losing clients and stuff. And so I said, you know what, i'm just going to take a break.
00:21:54
Speaker
um Took a took a break, didn't work for three months and then was offered a help desk position at TCM security and um just did like contract 20 bucks an hour work.
00:22:04
Speaker
Yeah. for a little bit until they brought me onto the pen test team. So now I'm a pen tester, um, rather good at externals. If I do you say so myself getting good at it. Okay, wait, wait, you are, you are being humble because I remember, I mean, you put yourself through the gauntlet of like learning this stuff. And I remember you saying like, I'm sort of flirting with pen testing and I think I just need to finally lean in yeah to this and, and just,
00:22:31
Speaker
do it So there's a lot of hours that you didn't account for there in terms of like just the study and all of this, which is an investment. But I, I think I, you know, I can feel like if I'm intentionally restarting, am I going backwards? You know, I i get that.
00:22:48
Speaker
I help desk never felt backwards. Um, but maybe that's because I believe in what TCM security does so much that it was kind of an honor to be on at the company at all.
00:23:03
Speaker
Right. And I knew that I would have access to some really great minds. Um, and so it was a lot of hours. I mean, I'm born and bred Texan. So like, I'm like, bring yourself up by your bootstraps person. Right. And Amber knows
Pursuing Passion: Amber's Perspective
00:23:20
Speaker
this, this is true.
00:23:21
Speaker
Um, and so there were, I mean, and I still put a lot of hours into the craft. Um, and I, I know that I'll never be the best hacker in the world because I'm too interested in too many things.
00:23:34
Speaker
Um, but, but I can outwork, um, a lot of people that I know. i dont I do not mind putting the time in to invest in myself. And also, like, let's, again, let's just track this.
00:23:47
Speaker
Yeah. you go help desk up to offensive engineer and you invented a new course. Yeah. A new certification.
00:23:58
Speaker
Yeah. yes That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, and it was, uh, one of the coolest things I think I've done in my career so far. Um, so I have a certification with TCM called the, uh, PJOR,
00:24:11
Speaker
practical junior OSINT researcher, um ah something I'm super proud of. And it's getting a lot of like good feedback. Most importantly, people say it's fun, ah which is really what I was going for there. That's awesome.
00:24:24
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, I'm super proud of that. Me me to you guys, like privacy for me is one of my my specialty loves. And so I think teaching people how to do OSINT is teaching people how to take hold of their own privacy amongst other things.
00:24:41
Speaker
And so it it really was an honor to do this this certification. Nice. So now I get to ask your wife to weigh in on your career path. So as HR professional to our listeners who may be hearing the non-conventional path, I just want, it's very rare that our audience is going to get to hear from HR. So would love to hear kind of your advice, take interpretation of like what it takes to make these pivots.
00:25:12
Speaker
Because as you mentioned, the inspiration for this scholarship, she made a pivot, right? And just anyway, give you a space to talk about that. Absolutely. Yeah. So Catherine, was a lifelong learner, like we talked about, and she was so many things. She was more than just, you know, cybersecurity professional. She was mechanical engineer. She had aspirations to be an architect at one point.
00:25:36
Speaker
She used so many things outside of that. um And I think that, Part of your career path is finding out who you are as a person and what do you do best and what do you get enjoyment out of and leaning into that. Right. And that might mean you pivot your career and it's OK.
00:25:57
Speaker
um I think for Anne specifically looking at her career, I'm incredibly proud because she has this knack for. Knowing when she's passionate about something or when it's time to turn a corner or when it's time to lean into something different. And she is not scared to do it. She knows it's just let's go. It's time, you know, and every time she finds something that she's so excited about, like I have never seen her have as much fun, you know, as I did when she was creating that certification. She had so much fun making it.
00:26:32
Speaker
um And so and even when she, you know, decided to lean into pen testing, it was something new and exciting. So I think from, you know, as her wife, I'm just proud that she's really leaned in and listened to herself because she knows who she is.
00:26:50
Speaker
um And I think that's part of it is knowing who you are knowing who your authentic self is, knowing what you get enjoyment out of and finding ways to do that in your day to day life. And if that makes you, you know, a livable wage and creates a good, you know, stable life for yourself, eat all the better. Right.
00:27:10
Speaker
It's one of the things that I saw Catherine really struggle with. um I think we both saw her. try to figure out exactly how she was going to give some positivity the to this world.
Mental Health and Finding Purpose
00:27:25
Speaker
You know, we I think looking back, especially on the months and weeks before she made the decision to do what she did, there was a lot of evidence there that she just really didn't feel that she was a positive person in this world.
00:27:41
Speaker
And she really didn't know what she was contributing. She didn't know how to to kind of give back in a way that she felt was meaningful. um and there are there are a lot of bits of evidence that that lead me to think that there aside from some mental health issues that she just did not track down, that fundamentally she just didn't know what she was about or where she was trying to go next.
00:28:06
Speaker
um And so I think that that's important for us. I think hard work and and sitting down and giving yourself space to think about who you are and what your values are and where you want to go with this life.
00:28:18
Speaker
um Those things are really important. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Be intentional. Yeah. Not just with your career, with your hobbies, with your community, with who you love. Your community. Yeah.
00:28:29
Speaker
it Just be intentional. So I have one final question for you guys, and I want you guys to to make it real quick, real high level for everyone listening, our whole audience.
00:28:40
Speaker
What makes a good ally and how can we be one? Say something like see something, say something. That's that's allyship. um Talk about people when they're not in the room in a positive way. yeah you know, elevate them.
00:28:55
Speaker
Look for the weirdos. Look for the people that are disenfranchised. Look for people that are different than than what you look like and sound like and bring them to the pizza party.
00:29:06
Speaker
That's it. Yeah, I think it's the the bring. i George and I are really allergic to admiring problems. I mean, yeah we'll start on something on our WhatsApp thread, but then it's it always ends with like, but what if we did, because ah just action, I can't just talk about shit and not do anything. It drives me up the wall. I mean, to be fair, I might run off with a half-baked idea,
00:29:34
Speaker
Like I might text you in the late hours and be like, what if I made a t-shirt that went to the scholarship? you know but I feel like we have to do stuff. I think it's the doing, right? Listen, I also have ADHD, so you're welcome to do that anytime you want. to yeah Yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's the action of like, take action.
00:29:56
Speaker
easy Be again, be intentional. like you know, there are a lot of There are a lot of ways to show that you're an ally. Doing this is an incredible way to show that you're an ally because you stepped up and you said, we're going to give this money um and then we're gonna have you on the podcast to talk about it.
00:30:16
Speaker
um and And that's what being an ally is. It's giving space and in making room. Absolutely. Well, Ange and Amber, thank you for taking the time out of your afternoon to join us at the end of the week.
00:30:31
Speaker
yeah Thank you. This was great. All right. We will hopefully talk to you again real soon. Thanks guys. Thank you.
00:30:45
Speaker
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