Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep 3. Tanveer Khan, BIC Cello
155 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, we talk with Tanveer Khan, Director (Marketing), BIC Cello, where he shares interesting anecdotes from his professional journey – from a fresh marketing graduate to leading a marketing function. He also guides young graduates and marketing professionals to focus more on learning and skill development rather than chasing designations.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, this is the Marketing Connect Podcast. Hi, this is the Marketing Connect Podcast. Hi, this is the Marketing Connect Podcast, a show where we get up close and personal with some of the most celebrated marketeers in the country. We talk to them and discover nuances of marketing that we often miss. After all, we are a show for marketeers by marketeers. Listen in.
00:00:34
Speaker
Good afternoon, everybody. Today on the Marketing Connect show, we have with us Tanveer from Big Sello. Tanveer is one of the most seasoned marketeers that I've had, had the pleasure to sit across a table and chat about all things marketing. Tanveer, welcome to the show. Tell us about yourself.
Tanveer's Career Journey
00:00:50
Speaker
Thank you, Saurabh. Thank you so much for that introduction.
00:00:54
Speaker
I think it's a very straightforward journey for me. In terms of my professional career, I completed my management from Lucknow University. And after that, I started off my work in Delhi as part of a sales team in the matrix cellular services company. And after that, as a market researcher, I was part of Indian market research bureau for three years. And then after that, I shifted base from Delhi to Bombay.
00:01:23
Speaker
And in Bombay, I was there for 11 years with Unilever, did another international assignment in Singapore, came back to Bombay. And then five years ago is when BIC reached out to me for heading marketing for India. And that is when I joined BIC, BIC cello.
00:01:42
Speaker
So it's been a simple journey for me actually. So what you call simple technique is probably what, I mean, probably the stuff that dreams are made up of, of most marketing students, right? I mean, right out of campus, in an exciting industry back then, cellular telecom was interesting. And then the big daddy Unilever and then now a different challenge with big, right? So, so a couple of questions, when you joined,
00:02:07
Speaker
When you joined the first job out of campus, did you choose it or was it thrown at you? No, so I chose it because there are options there. When you are young, you do not know what all you will do.
00:02:22
Speaker
When I completed my management, the most exciting field to be was telecom because there was Airtel, Vodafone, all the big names, a lot of campaigns, advertising. Being in marketing, that's what you pay attention to. And matrix and other services was a very interesting model because they catered to at that point in time, people who are international travelers and who used to get a bomb of a roaming bill if they used to go out. So it was a very
00:02:52
Speaker
It's very small but very enterprising firm. So it is good.
00:02:57
Speaker
Right. And tell me something. So let me just try to ask you like a marketing professor here. So who is the customer that you sold your products and services to? And what was that core insight that you looked at? And how did you sort of create your marketing communication there? Obviously, you are just starting out, you could not control a lot of things that were there. But to audiences today, if you were to go back and say, who's the customer? What is the insight? How do you
Insights and Learning in Market Research
00:03:23
Speaker
sell to those people?
00:03:24
Speaker
So I think back then life was a little bit more simpler because later on when I stepped into marketing, it got more complex. It was a sales role when I was there in matrix elder services. So I had a team of sales executives who used to go around and hunt for these corporates where you had a lot of international travelers.
00:03:44
Speaker
So part of the team was structured to sort of tap into the corporate sector and the corporate client. And the other part was that of distributors who used to have a lot of customers who had access to a lot of customers who used to do international travel. And it was about retailing and catching them at the right point.
00:04:02
Speaker
Okay, so next question Tanveer, I have is that, you know, when, when did you realize that your stint with selling these international SIM cards is over and you want to now move to the research with IMRP? How did that happen? So I think it was, it was more so to say organic as such. My batchmate from Lucknow University only was living with me, and he was working with the Indian Market Research Bureau. So a lot of people we were
00:04:32
Speaker
We were known to each other socially. Being young, being interested in what everybody is doing used to have a lot of discussions on the future of market research, on opportunity. See, you have to look at it in context that in that time around 2001, data and information was not as easily available as it is on the net right now. Right now, you can Google any company's sheet, you can Google any consumer behavior.
00:04:58
Speaker
Back then, it was a very traditional structure where all the companies had to go to a market research agency to know about the consumer, to know whether they're advertising is working or not, to test various things which were there. So a lot of discussions used to happen over coffee in terms of what kind of work Indian Market Research Bureau is doing, what kind of clients do we have, what questions come up, how do we sort of like navigate the whole landscape of consumer observation and insights and all of that.
00:05:27
Speaker
So that work also seemed very interesting to me. And when an opportunity came up, they asked me. And I said, yes, sure. I would love to have a chat across the table. And I had a discussion with them. And then the journey started.
00:05:43
Speaker
And for me, the thrill was that it was a lot more intellectual journey at that point in time versus sales, which I had already done for a year. And I had sort of gotten the learning that I want from that state. Got this. So if I want to keep a thread going forward, can I predict that in your life, learning has played a key role in each step that you've taken in life, per se? Yeah, sort of. I think that's a very fair assumption to make. One thing which I would like to sort of
00:06:13
Speaker
If you take a look at back, if I take a look at back at my career, basically, it's very important for all of us to sort of like gather skills in our initial years. It has to be it seldom is about the role. It's about what skills you can gather in every.
00:06:29
Speaker
So I think that was the focus and that was the learning. So used to interact with different people and used to see, OK, can I learn something? Can I understand something? Is there some aspect of my understanding about the business, about marketing, about economy that I can improve?
00:06:44
Speaker
And so that is the kind of discussion which led one thing to another, you know, so and to be very honest, I always used to join a company thinking that this is the company that I want to retire from. So I joined matrix services saying that, OK, I'm going to grow up in the ranks and I'm going to go into marketing and then one day I'll hit this company.
00:07:03
Speaker
Similarly, when I joined IMRB, I said I love this field. It's very intellectual, a lot of good conversations with top management people and everything. So I'm going to grow over here and I'm going to head the branch one day and then ultimately the company one day.
00:07:18
Speaker
But the focus is more about whichever role you were in, how much can you learn from that role and what skills can you gather? Got this. That's super interesting, at least for the young listeners on the podcast, they could look at that as a tenet for them to help them grow, right?
00:07:34
Speaker
So, okay, so tell me two or three or one, I mean, whatever you can think of big challenges that you faced at your stint with IMRB. I mean, I know it's again long time ago, but if you can think of some remarkable case studies, examples, questions, doubts, lessons that you think that you need to share with the world per se, what would those be?
00:07:54
Speaker
Let's just say that one good thing which market research offers you is that you get time with a lot of senior people at a very young age. So you're working as a market researcher, but you are the person who's doing the entire thing. So you're collecting, getting the data collected, you're analyzing it, making the presentation, and you're presenting the whole thing, finding which is there.
00:08:18
Speaker
So I think those kind of interactions at that age gave me a lot of perspective on how senior management thinks of various things in marketing, how they think about advertising, how they think about the product, what kind of questions they want answered and what kind of questions do they want you to sort of like dig in and dig deeper.
00:08:40
Speaker
So that's the challenge we used to face to be a 22 or a 23 year old person and try to empathize from a
00:08:51
Speaker
point of view of a marketing director or a ceo if that's the difficult part because at that age and i now know that at that age we all feel that we know a lot you know so we are very eager to put a point of view but some of those point of views do they they they have passion but they lack experience so i think i have made some presentations at some very prestigious companies like Gillette with Nestle with Frito Lays
00:09:21
Speaker
Um, so there were a lot of times where, you know, you, you found yourself that you were speechless because the question that was asked, you never thought about it. And then you went back to the data and you dug in deeper and say, why did I not think about this one? Why did it, was it such a big miss for me? And that is the kind of learning that you sort of like get when you have those interactions, which are, I would say very meaningful. Got this.
Opportunities and Exposure for Young Professionals
00:09:46
Speaker
So that's it, you sort of, how do I put it, brought out a very interesting nuance, right?
00:09:52
Speaker
that we think we are the kings or the queens of the world, and we know it all. But suddenly, when you get out in the market, you realize that the person on the other side, the other thing that I find interesting in your experience with IMRB, in this thing that you get to speak to people at these larger businesses, is the fact that you probably were talking to you, like you mentioned.
00:10:20
Speaker
different kinds of industries also sort of get thrown at you, right? I mean, like typically, you know, sales roles for, let's say, a record, Ben Kaiser, for example, you will probably go and sell Harpik for like five years, and then you will move to a marketing role or a regional role or whatever. But if you are, you know, IMRB kind of a place, you probably would have projects that would expose to different industries, per se, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
00:10:48
Speaker
So tell me, and you may not have the answer to this question, but today, if somebody is listening to this podcast and they want this wide exposure, what opportunities do you think exist for kids today, per se, the ones who are passing out of college right now, or maybe people who are in two to three years of experience with marketing? Do you think there are roles now that allow you to learn about those things?
00:11:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a classic divide between, in the world of marketing, there are two types. One is client, one is agency. So if you want a more wider exposure, most of the agencies give a very wide exposure. So like you have market research agencies, you also have advertising agencies, you also have media agency. And all of these agencies have multiple clients which span across different segments.
00:11:37
Speaker
So you ask anybody on the agency side, they have that challenge of understanding the consumer and the business from different categories respective.
00:11:47
Speaker
One thing which I would like to say is that the world of FMCG is simpler to that extent because sometimes that the consumer that you're targeting is usually the same. For example, the housewife, a racket will target that same housewife to purchase its own product while a cosmetic industry will also target the same housewife. So even though there is a beauty industry and there's a household care, but the consumer is the same, they behave in different
00:12:15
Speaker
So I think it's about aspect of understanding the consumer in different ways and how they perceive different category. But most of the sense, I mean, to answer your question, most of the agencies, they provide you with this kind of an exposure where you can get a multi category understanding in the same environment.
00:12:32
Speaker
Fair enough. That's a fair answer. OK. Coming on to the next move that you sort of made from IMAB to Hindustan Unilever, now Unilever, how did that move come in? What was the decision? What were the questions that you asked yourself before you made the move? So we want to figure out, how do you not make a bad move in career? So what are those questions that you thought of?
00:12:55
Speaker
So I think the good part about it is that, and this goes out to anybody, anybody who gets an offer to join Unilever should definitely join Unilever. It's a fantastic company to work for, a very big brand name, you get a lot of learning out of it. So when I was in IMRB, as you know, I was happily working in IMRB thinking I'm going to head the branch one day and ultimately the company one day.
00:13:20
Speaker
but one of those headhunters called and they said that there is an opportunity and I told them I'm happy where I am and all of that and they said that the opportunity is with Unilever.
00:13:29
Speaker
So then I said, okay, if that's the opportunity, then maybe we can have a discussion. You know, you're young, so you are obviously very busy, but Unilever as a name stands out. And of course, the fact that, you know, you get to travel from Delhi to Bombay to give the interview. You know, you have to take out time, you have to do everything. So, planned accordingly, had an interaction, had another second round, another third round and
00:13:54
Speaker
Then it came about. The thing was that it was in the consumer insights team of Unity World. So it was they were looking for somebody with an agency background who had developed a certain level of expertise and a skill set. And in about three odd years I had the experience which I had across many FMCG and other clients which were there.
00:14:15
Speaker
I think that is the experience which Unilever wanted and which is why they made an offer and that is when I said yes and I shifted base to Bombay because the decision was big. Sometimes what happens is when you are young you tend to think that locations matter more, you know, I belong to Lucknow.
00:14:33
Speaker
Delhi was a night's journey away by plane at that point in time, 45 minutes by plane. Bombay was far away. All those things went into the decision making but everything seems to override things when you mention your reliever. I left IMRB also on a very good sort of like load and my boss, she herself said that that opportunity is very good and you should definitely take it up and it's good for your career.
00:15:02
Speaker
And yeah, so that's how the move happened. Got this. The one thing that I am learning from this move of yours that I want to sort of reinforce is that if you are listening to this and if you want to make a move in terms of from company A to B, always ensure that the move
00:15:19
Speaker
does not come at an expense of a relationship that you have with a company, right? I mean, like you mentioned, you took blessings of your boss before you moved in and a good manager would want you to go ahead, right? And they will not be too touchy about you staying with them or some other company, right? They want you to grow as individuals, right? Absolutely, absolutely. I think you're absolutely right. And this brings us to
Navigating International Markets and Career Growth
00:15:42
Speaker
another point that the career is also about relationships as it is about skills.
00:15:47
Speaker
So finding the right people, supporting the right people at the right time, right people supporting you at the right time is something which is very important. And you know, you look at a journey on paper and you say it's been a fantastic journey. But many important people have had their role to play. And you should sort of like try and empathize with all the people that you work with, definitely with your line manager or your boss and try and keep that in perspective whenever you're taking any decision.
00:16:15
Speaker
So tell me, and this was a question that I didn't plan for, to be honest, but you brought it out interestingly. Do you want to mention by names or designations, some of your managers, seniors that sort of, I'll not say held your hands per se, but they encourage you to, you know, take those risks that a typical junior beginner does not take.
00:16:41
Speaker
It's something that you have to take into account that your career is not a standalone career and you're not a one man show. You have to consider that the people you work with and whenever you are leaving a particular function or a particular organization, you have to keep in mind the needs of the line manager that you have and leave it at a place where you keep it professional. Okay, next question for me is that, you know, you did a couple of stints within Unilever in Singapore as well, apart from India.
00:17:09
Speaker
So, quick thoughts on how are markets in Southeast Asian countries different from say India as a region and how easy or difficult is it for you as a marketeer to adapt to those? Because from what I understand, a marketing insight is what drives action and ideas and thoughts. Suddenly, when you go to different market
00:17:31
Speaker
insights all together and people the way they behave is entirely different from what you expect them to. So, how did that transition happen for you? What was your experience? What did you learn? So, I think see marketing is one key function which is there. Of course, you need to understand the nitty-gritties and the basics of that one.
00:17:53
Speaker
Basically, I'll give you an example. When I was in Singapore, I did the role of a corporate audit manager. Our job was to go around the globe asking difficult questions to very senior people on their marketing plan. So we are a cross-functional team. I was a marketer. There is obviously a salesperson, a finance person, a HR person. And we land together as a team in one particular unit and we audit the entire process.
00:18:17
Speaker
One thing which I think is a key take out for me is that as a professional and as someone who's a marketing professional, you need to be flexible in trying to understand the landscape.
00:18:29
Speaker
Every country is different in terms of its structure, in terms of its customer, in terms of its market, in terms of its habits and sizes of the categories that you're operating in. The channel structure is many times different, which is there. So India is highly traditional trade. Australia, for example, is
00:18:50
Speaker
between two customers Kohl's and Willsworth 80% of the business goes between two customers are two chains and they sort of like call big shots so it has a high impact on the way you do your marketing how you pitch the customer where the customer becomes a lot more important at the consumer at times his needs have to be taken into account obviously everything that you create has to be centered and anchored by a consumer need and a consumer insight but you have to take many more aspects into account
00:19:18
Speaker
What I would suggest is that the amount of time that a marketing professional can understand, try and spend and understand the landscape of a particular country or a particular segment or a particular category, that helps a lot. See, what happens is that we all have the urge to solve problems. So no matter where you reach, you are tempted to give a solution. But at that point, when the temptation is the highest, you have to step back and say, do I understand this particular landscape properly or not?
00:19:48
Speaker
And if you take that additional time, then you can pretty much sort of like understand most of the problems out there from a marketing point of view or from any point of view.
00:19:57
Speaker
That's a very interesting answer, to be honest. And in my conversations, I haven't come across this way of looking at, you know, moves between, when I say regions, obviously India itself is a diverse region, right? North India and South India are entirely different. So is West and East. But when I speak, when people move from country A to country B, that entirely is right. So this is something that is interesting and new for me.
00:20:21
Speaker
Okay, cut this. So, coming to what we do now, I mean, you know, big sell-off. So, you said that somebody called you and said, do you want to lead marketing at big sell-off? This was five years back. So, again, I will ask the same question. How did you decide? What questions did you ask yourself before you made the move? And now it's been five years, right? So, after you made the move, what are the ones, I mean,
00:20:47
Speaker
If you want to talk about the ones that you regret, you could talk about that. And if you want to talk about unexpected surprises, pleasant ones, you can talk about that as well. Overall, the journey has been very fulfilling, definitely. See, I think when I would urge anybody who is taking to look out for an opportunity,
00:21:09
Speaker
I particularly spend a lot of time trying to understand the role that I really mean approached for. Which businesses did it involve? What categories did it involve? What is the kind of marketing effort which will be required within these segments and categories and does that excite me or not?
00:21:27
Speaker
you should
Joining and Innovating at BIC Cello
00:21:28
Speaker
not go for a job change until the destination is something that is exciting you. And within the destination, the journey or the pain that you will go through has to be attractive to you, not the ultimate destination. So it was not kept in mind saying that, OK, I'm getting a role which is a CMO level role or a marketing director for India role. It was the kind of work or the challenges that I will face in this particular position. Are those things that I'm ready for?
00:21:57
Speaker
And are those things that excite me or not? And thanks to Unilever, of course, I had done multiple roles across brand development, brand building and mix and insights of all of that. So I did feel confident about the fact that I will be able to do this particular role. The attractiveness about the role was that BIC operates in stationary shavers and lighters, which are three categories. All three categories, so to say, are not at a very developed stage in India as such.
00:22:27
Speaker
So lighter has a long journey to go in terms of safety checks and everything. Sorry, I'm interrupting you. I hate to do this, but these three categories.
00:22:36
Speaker
You know, like you mentioned that the same woman will probably buy a shampoo and a soap and a cooking oil, right? I mean, who would buy a pen and a lighter and a shaver at the same time? I understand that lighter and shaver could probably be talking to a male audience per se, but you know what I'm saying? Stationary and lighter and shaver. So that is also interesting, right? Yeah, yeah. So there are many ways in which a business is built. Sometimes if you take a look at it from an entrepreneur perspective,
00:23:05
Speaker
The three categories have synergies in terms of manufacturing. Probably distribution is the right to come to think of it. Actually distribution not as much as manufacturing because in manufacturing all of these three categories include sourcing and molding plastic parts and it includes sourcing and working with metal parts. So pen has a body and a nib.
00:23:28
Speaker
Shavers obviously have a handle and a blade. And similarly, lighters also have a plastic body and a flint or the... So basically, there are manufacturing synergies which are there. And which is one reason why if you take a look at it, BIC is very good at making these products, all of them very efficiently. Very good quality products made at very good prices, offered at very good prices to consumers.
00:23:58
Speaker
So that's the thing that attracted me in terms of the manufacturing capabilities and the quality of the product was fantastic. So Tanveer, before I interrupted you, you were talking about how these three categories are still very underdeveloped in the country right now, all the three categories. Do you want to build on that, please? Yeah. So all three categories, stationary shavers and lighters.
00:24:24
Speaker
are underdeveloped in India and there's a lot of work to be done. For example, in the lightest category, the safety regulations have yet to go a long way. There's still a lot of people who use the matchstick which are there. The value equation for the consumer has to be redefined. There are a lot of Chinese lighters that of course are flooded the market.
00:24:44
Speaker
There's a lot of education that can be done because there's a lot of wastage in all of these instruments that we have. I think it's about the fact that we need good quality products in these segments. And similarly, if you take a look at stationery, a lot of very good local manufacturers providing products which are there.
00:25:06
Speaker
But some of them do not have the distribution capabilities. Some of them do not have the sort of like capital to invest in terms of consumer brands and building them in the right way. So gaps are definitely there, which are there. Shavers is of course, we are a young country, we are headed off in the right direction. Of course, there are many formidable competitors who are there in the market right now.
00:25:31
Speaker
But a lot can be done, a lot can be achieved in terms of changing habits and trying to give good quality products.
00:25:40
Speaker
cheaper prices. So, all of these things make for a very interesting set and a brand trying to build these categories through consumer education, through providing the right quality of products at the right price is a good challenge to have. It's something which is not something which Unilever has a lot of wonderful categories, a lot of wonderful brands, but this part of building something from scratch
00:26:08
Speaker
building categories and building brands in them with the amount of consumer education required, with the right level of investment, with the right brand positioning is what attracted me to the role. Got this. I'm going to throw a difficult question at you and I know you can see me. You see
00:26:26
Speaker
like growth on my facial hair, right? And I don't believe in shaving. So so how do you sell? And this is not one of those sell me a pen or whatever, but how do you sell a shaver to somebody like me who doesn't believe in, you know, keeping a beard trimmed? Yeah, so sort of.
00:26:46
Speaker
The consumers are of many types. I'll give you a trend and after that I think you can think through it on your own. Basically what happens is that keeping a beard is now more acceptable and more of a trend right now. But if you take a look at the other flip side, body shaving and many other ways of maintaining and grooming yourself are coming up.
00:27:09
Speaker
So,
Understanding Market Dynamics and Consumer Needs
00:27:10
Speaker
face is one landscape, the body is another landscape. And there is a various mix of people who have a combination of what they prefer. So, I would suggest that, okay, if the face is closed, the entire body is opened up right now.
00:27:25
Speaker
That's a good one. That's a good one. Also, what I feel, and again, this is something maybe you want to answer or not, but in each of the three categories that you operate in, apart from, say, lighters, Zippo is a super premium brand, per se. I don't really know how many people in India consume that as well. Everybody buys Pancho Rupeka Lighter, Dastupeka Lighter from them.
00:27:45
Speaker
from the neighborhood, you know what I'm saying? But the other two categories that you operate in, there are super formidable brands, right? I mean, in the sense that, that, you know, sharing as a category has the biggest brand is synonymous with the category of shaving, right? So that is A, B in the stationary piece also, I mean, there are legacy brands, again, Indian brands, international brands that are again, sort of, you know, synonymous with the category. So it's a big, big marketing challenge, right? And then it
00:28:14
Speaker
it is not going to sort of get solved on day zero. So just assume Karva, Sir Tanveer, that I am going to join you as your deputy CMO or part of your team. What would you brief me and how would you tackle this challenge of, let's take pens for example, not shaver.
00:28:34
Speaker
Let's take pens for example, how do you how do you build plan to tackle the largest competitors in the market that are as that's the category like people go and ask for a brand and not for a pen? How do you tackle that? So I think at least on the stationary front, we are the biggest so it becomes simpler. But I think each category is having a selling point. So let's take for example stationary. Do you know that India has about 314 million students?
00:29:06
Speaker
That's the fourth largest country in the world, basically. So you have China with a population of 1.3. We come as second and another 1.3 billion. US population is around 323 million or 326 million. After that, you have Indian students who can make a country of their own of 314 million. This country of students is going to keep growing. Every year,
00:29:31
Speaker
give or take, we will add another 4 million or 40 lakh students will get enrolled. So a lot of people will be coming into the education sector and study. Writing is not only a tool of expression, it's a tool of learning. When you write, you process the information longer, you stay with it much better, your different centers of your brain fire up and you learn things better.
00:29:55
Speaker
So writing is a learning tool. So stationary as a segment in India is poised to grow in the next 10 years because of the fact that the education sector will grow a lot more. And I'm keeping into account the fact that there will be dropouts with people who are professionals who are not writing as much now because they'll be doing more things online. But stationary will continue to grow over here. The opportunity in stationary goes beyond branding. It's not about brand. It's about the fact that there will be people looking for good quality products.
00:30:24
Speaker
and they'll be looking for good quality experiences and diverse experiences. And will we be there to provide them with the right technology and the right tools in the coming years to that set of consumers? Right. And in the other segments, I mean, both for lighters perspective, if you take a look at lighters, there is, of course, going to be a move towards more safe usage of lighters. There are many lighters which are very dangerous.
00:30:52
Speaker
Chinese lighters are, whether it be 5 or 10, anybody who's used to Chinese lighters knows that they don't go to the end of their gas limit. Yeah, even if you were to like, I don't smoke, to be honest, so I don't really use often. But every time I've seen my friends, this struggle with it and the joke that goes around in my friends at least is that every time I buy a pack of smokes, I need to buy a lighter alongside because the expense becomes 20 rupees more expensive.
00:31:18
Speaker
That is where the value equation is. So basically, if you take a look at the big lighters and you can go and do search on the net, there are X amount of lights that the lighter guarantees. For this kind of money, you will get so many lights because that's the level of quality which is available.
00:31:34
Speaker
So and that entire landscape has to develop People have now been starting to use incense a lot of other things which are being used Everything all the Indian households are becoming more and more premium their habits are changing So the lighter will have a role to play in the category in the coming years And the third category, of course, everybody knows it is if you are a good marketeer, then you will try to take on that chance
00:32:01
Speaker
Because, and we'll leave it at that because, because that, that is the same thing. How do I tackle that? And it's a challenge also. If I don't take this, then what do I take? And, and that is, that is the exciting part of it. I mean, if the outcome is known that you would never take a journey on its own, you know, there has to be a certain element of risk, which is there, which excites you, which is what drives you learning, and which is dry, which drives your satisfaction, no matter the outcome.
00:32:30
Speaker
got this. Yeah, that's super. So, Tanveer, I was doing some research on you and I was talking, I mean, you as in big cello, and I found a couple of campaigns that you've done that were interesting to me, at least. I make it the names correct, names incorrect, because I mean, like, you know, my memory is sketchy. So you did some stuff around, you did something called surprise test, and then you did something called making exams, stress free, per se, like, what are these? Can you talk about a couple of your interesting campaigns over the last few years? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:00
Speaker
So, see, the education sector is one of our biggest target groups, teachers, students, all of them, they write, and they're a very important part of the, I wouldn't say our business, but they're very important part of the society, I mean, as such. One thing which, of course, we want to do is that we want to partner with our students. And one struggle which is, of course, there is the fact that the pressure that students go through when giving an exam.
00:33:29
Speaker
Now, giving an exam is a pressure no matter which way you take it. So sort of if I in the next 10 minutes, I said I have 10 questions, I'm going to ask 10 questions to you. And you have about 10 minutes to answer these questions, one minute per question. And we will go automatically you're under pressure. Yeah, yeah. And these, let me Google it open Google. So just because of the format in which exams are done and the way they're conducted, it adds pressure.
00:33:56
Speaker
Now, consider the added pressure that the student gets sometimes from expectations, expectations of friends, comparison, expectation from parents in terms of what I expect. We parents as parents, we do it in the right sense. But sometimes this pressure is undue pressure, you know, it's unwanted pressure is what we call it. So we had running awareness campaign, which we had sung when we had a short film, which showcased the scenario of how parents
00:34:24
Speaker
unknowingly put pressure on their kids and we said that okay let's get all the parents to give us six standard exams. So we put them one hour and we said okay now we'll compare your scores with your kids scores.
00:34:37
Speaker
So, it's there on the net. I would highly recommend you go and watch the film once. But in that, you will see there are many different kinds of parents who are there. Some parents who say if you get good in your exams, I'll give you so and so gifts. If you do well in the exam, you'll make me proud. You definitely have to do better in the exam because you need to do better than Rahul or somebody else who is a kid in the neighborhood or somewhere. Yeah. Shambhulika Beta as we call it in India.
00:35:02
Speaker
So I think the whole film was designed to make you realize that, see, the undue pressure that you provide is not something which is beneficial for the students. We would rather that you back off a little, they know what they're doing, support them in the skills part, support them in the learning part of it. That way you are positively contributing to the exam pressure with the student goes through. And that is something that we firmly believe in.
00:35:30
Speaker
That is something that we do. That is the follow-up of the second campaign that we did, which is making exams stress-free, where we actually launched a program called Write to Win, where you talk about writing techniques and learning techniques, which can help the students perform better in their exams.
00:35:49
Speaker
And we ran this as a school contact program, which had modules in it. And we had provided these sessions to approximately 600,000 students. And we had reached out to around 1,500 schools. This was, of course, pre-pandemic. So after that, we are figuring out on how to execute the program in the most successful way. And that solution we'll have hopefully soon.
00:36:14
Speaker
So, I have a question more for mind learning than the audience is learning to be honest here, right? So, most times when I work as a marketer myself, when I go back to a client and tell them that, you know, we should look at doing a campaign that goes beyond peddling the product. Like, for example, your former company, if they sell a beauty bathing soap, they would say,
00:36:36
Speaker
you get confidence and you will win the world. I mean that's the most common spiel of selling a beauty product. But look at your communication on all channels, even as a tool
00:36:51
Speaker
even a school contact program, your communication seems to be a little more layered. You are not saying the Mira Penkri though. You are not saying Bik Salo Kari though ya, Miri Pencil. You are not talking about the product at all. You are talking a little layered, you are talking a little deeper, you are talking a little, how do I put it? You know, it requires some thought to understand Bik Kuch Karrai Mereliya. So, tell me how
00:37:17
Speaker
So A, why is it that I don't see it from other brands, to be honest? I mean, I don't know if you have the answer to that or not, because that's where I'm stuck at. And B, do you, and this is a secret that I want to know from you, do you also run other campaigns that probably you and I may not talk about on a podcast or on a media piece, but those campaigns sort of complement or support these larger initiatives?
00:37:43
Speaker
So sort of in this one, I would just like to make a distinction between two things. As a brand, we have two approaches. One is in terms of our campaign, there is one rich campaign that is for information. So what products do we have? What benefits do they have? These are our regular ads that we run. So these are about informing the consumer that we have a smooth writing pen, Butterflow, we have a fine writing pen, gripper. So those are information.
00:38:09
Speaker
The other part that I'm talking to you about is communication. What is the conversation that we would like to have with our consumer? No, of course, I'm not going to have a deep, meaningful conversation on the pen. I mean, that this is a pen, it is rights like this. I mean, it's a pen, it's fairly obvious to everyone. So the information provides you what are the good quality pens that we have, what benefits you get. But in terms of conversation, which will help you in your life,
00:38:34
Speaker
And we believe writing is a very good champion that can be there with you throughout your life. And from that point of view, we want to have a conversation on how we can help you through our writing techniques, through our learning techniques, because that is when we can meaningfully engage with you. And I think it's fair that every brand, I do not know how many brands are doing it. There are many brands who attempt to do it.
00:38:59
Speaker
But having a meaningful conversation with the consumer is sort of like a basic right now. I mean, you will not.
00:39:07
Speaker
You will not get as many chances to put your brand in front of them through your ad every time. And the other thing that I would like to say is that more than that, it's about positively contributing to the society. I get a lot of satisfaction, me and my team, that the kind of thing that we are working on will genuinely try and help the education sector or the student in some way or the other, whatever is the little contribution that we can make.
00:39:39
Speaker
And so, okay, if I were to sort of paraphrase for my learning, right, I mean, I would say that, you know, there are two sorts of campaigns that you run. One is information campaigns that will probably talk about mandatory and product benefits and features and so on and so forth. And then second is a communication slash conversation, as you call it, campaign that will probably talk to
00:39:59
Speaker
That would be like having a chat between two friends, colleagues and so on and so forth, so that I can sort of nudge the other person into going to a higher plane. Is that what you sort of... Yes, it's about meaningful conversations.
00:40:16
Speaker
Got this. Got this. And funny thing is, you know, and again, it's a rant that I have as an individual than me, that when I go to my clients and try to get them to do purposeful or meaningful conversations, they are like, so that is a question that I'm sure you would have also asked your marketing team and agency partners that, you know, where is the ROI of this spend, right? Because end of the day, each rupee you spend has to return, you know, more than that.
00:40:45
Speaker
So those questions must be there in your head also, right? Yes, yes. And as a marketer, you're asked many of these questions. I'll leave you with my thoughts on this saying, as a marketer, you need to answer both questions. You need to answer the questions on return on investment. And you need to answer the questions on what you want to do with the consumer. And your approach should be built in such a way that you're able to deliver both.
00:41:12
Speaker
So like I said that there is a information and there is a conversation. Of course, we carry on our campaigns in totality. We have a conversation with the consumer in such a way that at the end of it, we are able to evaluate if this is the amount of money that we have spent. What is the kind
Strategic Planning and Brand Management
00:41:27
Speaker
of business that we have brought back? And not every communication is linked to a direct business, but every communication has a KPI, which is an indicator of how it will contribute to the business or to the brand.
00:41:39
Speaker
Brothers. That's a nice one. Brothers. Cool. Brothers. So I'm going to move to other, how do I put it, personal questions, if I may call those personal questions. Also, so tell me what is a typical day in life of a CMO at a fairly busy business, like a big cello. So what is a typical day like? So a typical day would begin with, of course, the basics, you need to get your right amount of sleep.
00:42:10
Speaker
You need to be fresh. You need to be healthy. You need to reach the office on time. You need to organize your day before you start it. You have to have a timetable which you set aside. So that's what I do. I reach the office. I take stock of what is
00:42:26
Speaker
On my day, I make a to-do list, which is the most obvious thing to do, and figure out what are the tasks that are important and urgent, which need to go out today. What are the things that we get carried forward? I usually separate my time for answering emails. And I usually take about two slots. One is just after our first meeting, we meet together as a leadership team, I think, every other day.
00:42:55
Speaker
to catch up half an hour on what are the kind of things that is being done. I keep aside time to catch up with my team on what are the things to be done. And then we carry on with what are the, we have a focus on what are the things that are being, we have to deliver in the coming three months. And that sort of follows on to the rolling task that we have to do. And we follow that as we go along.
00:43:24
Speaker
It's a mixture of having meaningful discussions with the right people and it's about having the right kind of priorities set. So it's a full day. I mean, there are a lot of priorities to be ticked off and it's always going to be a balance of what you tick off today versus what you tick off tomorrow or the next week.
00:43:45
Speaker
That actually is throwing a question in my head, again, not a planned question. So I believe, as sort of, I believe that brands are like babies. You need to plan their lives. They are like human beings. They are born. They grow. They mature. They need a refresh. And they need to sort of die down as well when times are not right. So as a marketeer in a business like yours, how do you sort of plan
00:44:13
Speaker
a brand like that? Do you use a certain tool? Do you have a document? I don't know if my question is making sense to you or not, but this is more like a personal query than what I had planned for. How do you plan for such a long duration? So we did the planning work on the brand quite a few years ago. And so we segregated that, OK, if this is the category, if this is the brand, what are the kind of
00:44:42
Speaker
things that our brand should stand for. And it's of course a combination of the consumer, it's a combination of the customer, it's also a combination of a company. Let's put those three C's in place right now. And the brand has a journey to scale across all of them. What role will that brand or that product? So for example, Celo is a brand. Within the brand, we have multiple other brands. We have a Butterflow, we have a
00:45:05
Speaker
Max writer, we have a, what do you call it, gripper. So obviously, each brand should provide a certain role to all these three customers, so to say. So they should play a role in the life of the consumer. They should play a role in the life of the customer. I mean, why should he keep the brand? They should play a role in the life of the company because the company is going to invest resources in producing it, planning for it, investing money behind it.
00:45:32
Speaker
And I think that's the framework that we have nailed down. And once you have that framework is clear, then the what and the how of it comes alive.
00:45:44
Speaker
think that, OK, what will we do to build that brand? What is the journey of that one? Each and every brand has its own journey. Some brands are at an advanced stage. They have done a lot in the consumer. They have done a lot for the company. They have to now find out new customers, and we have to expand them in a particular way, and we have to grow them in a particular way. So I
Impact of the Pandemic on Business and Marketing
00:46:04
Speaker
think that's the branding work or the branding architecture work that we had done in the initial part when I had come in from Unilever, and we had defined that scope.
00:46:13
Speaker
So the next question is around the pandemic that we are in the middle of, probably towards the end of it. So as a marketeer, what do you think changed, A, in the core business of marketing, and B, what did you think changed in terms of consumer behavior or the way consumers sort of reacted towards categories like the ones that big corporations and then other categories in general? OK.
00:46:40
Speaker
So, if I take a look at what changed for the business or for this one, as big cello, we had a omni-channel approach, saying that we need to be accessible at the right price points and within the right channels to our consumers. As part of that, we are obviously very dominant in general trade.
00:47:06
Speaker
Celo, for example, is the brand which has the highest unneeded or a spontaneous recall. It has the highest share, highest distribution and highest recommendation as far as shopkeepers approach. So our omni-channel approach said that we need to take our strengths from traditional trade to modern trade, to e-commerce, to other channels.
00:47:28
Speaker
With the pandemic, some of these things got accelerated actually. So, e-com took a step jump. Some of the segments that we had to build, like for example, we have a very good Penn's business, which is where we are very strong. We also have to build some businesses in Don Penn, in other categories which are there. Other categories like arts and crafts also took off very well.
00:47:52
Speaker
I would say that while the pandemic posts certain challenges on some aspects of our business, some segments and some channels, but the other segments and channels are what took a frog leap, the frog leap ahead. And that was the good part of the pandemic. In terms of in terms of the second question on consumer behavior, there is a lot of study being done. And there are a lot of point of views on what of these behaviors are going to be sustainable post pandemic.
00:48:22
Speaker
So, and the jury is out on that one. McKinsey in one study obviously said that I think going forward maybe 25% of the workforce in a company in all probability might work from home completely. So, they are predicting that. There are many other predictions which are there.
00:48:41
Speaker
For us, I think what we feel is that as far as the education sector goes, once the pandemic is over and the students come back to school, obviously some behaviors which were online may continue, but a lot of the things which were traditional in terms of writing, in traditional in terms of the way people were studying, will come back to what they used to be. And we will again have a middle ground which is.
00:49:05
Speaker
So I think that's our view of what the pandemic sort of like contributed and what impact it might have going into the future. And we want to take a shot at when do you think we'll be back to being, you know what I'm saying, pandemic life with no masks, easy travel, and so on and so forth. So sort of your guess is as good as mine on this one. There is no other.
00:49:34
Speaker
I think we all hope for the same things. We all hope that the vaccine percentage is improved soon. We all hope that there is no third wave. And we all hope that in another six months, we all go back to some sort of normal life that we were used to living. And I would say that we all pray for that. I hope so too.
00:50:01
Speaker
Okay, last few set of questions. I am almost close to the hour, so I just want to wrap this up also. So tell me, as a marketeer, and I wanted to also put your hat as somebody who's got grey hair. Pardon my ageism here, but... No, there are loads of it. Yes, yes. Yeah, I'm the Bali kind of advisor. So, as somebody who sort of could mentor
00:50:24
Speaker
other marketeers, entrepreneurs. As a result of pandemic apart from the obvious ones like digital marketing and so on and so forth, what opportunities do you see coming in for a marketeers and b people who want to start out entrepreneurs or people who you believe could benefit from this? So what are those opportunities?
00:50:46
Speaker
So I think what I'll do is that I'll talk a little bit about the marketeers and I'll talk about professionals in general also, you know, people who are starting out, you know, in their career, how they're doing. Obviously, from a marketing point of view, you have skills which we all know that there is a lot of skills on creativity and digital that we need to sort of like adapt to. So digital is being
00:51:11
Speaker
It is here to stay and we really need to sort of like get ourselves acquainted to the way things work in the digital world and they are not as simple as they used to be only when the TV was around and used to air a 30 second rate used to be done. But on the digital part of it I would like to just leave with the marketing profession that the landscape is so vast that we have to be very clear on what we want.
00:51:36
Speaker
So when interacting with the digital agencies, when interacting with your digital partner, you have to bring the brand perspective in saying that the campaign needs to deliver definitely A, B and C. Now you give me the digital KPIs that will help me deliver A, B and C. The digital has this scope because it's intellectually very stimulating that all of us get into it and we go off on a journey where sometimes we do not know whether we have taken the consumer or the brand along with us, you know.
00:52:04
Speaker
because it gets a lot more into the format and the channels and the creativity that we've been through. So I would definitely say that on the digital front, we really need to be very clear on the KPIs that we are setting and how they will contribute to the brand. And the second thing that I would like to say is that from the overall perspective, creativity is having a much broader umbrella right now. First, creativity was only limited to sort of like making the right TVC.
00:52:33
Speaker
Now, as a marketer, you have to be very creative in your solutions.
00:52:36
Speaker
and your solutions for the consumer, what solutions your product can provide, what solutions you want them to have. You will need to have creative solutions on the channel side as well. Where should your brand be supplied? Where should it be displayed? How should it be made visible? How should it be taken forward? All these things will differ. I'm not even talking about the combination of various channels of marketplace versus the other places which are going to come up. But you have to figure out
00:53:06
Speaker
your creativity in how will my brand look in each and every channel from a 350 degree perspective. That's interesting. And I think the last thing which I would like to sort of like say for even marketeers or non-marketeers is the fact that
00:53:25
Speaker
We all need to take a holistic view of the business and we need to see what is the kind of conversation that we want to carry in the categories that we have. I think it goes back to the discussion that we were having that brands need to have a communication and a conversation. But to have the conversation where you have the authority, you have the expertise to talk about it,
00:53:52
Speaker
and it is in line with the business and in line with the consumer's requirements is the tricky part of it. So we
Personal Insights and Career Advice
00:54:00
Speaker
all need to be very cognizant of the fact that when our business stands for something, is it being covered in a very believable way and we are going in the right direction of it.
00:54:10
Speaker
Got this. That's interesting. That's making me think, to be honest. I'm like, I'm taking my notes also. Got this. Super. Moving on to the last section of my conversation with you. So tell me, we started the conversation by saying, I mean, I predicted that, you know, your life has been a lot about learning and each step has taken, you've taken each step because you've got to learn from the next step that you've taken, right? So that is there.
00:54:39
Speaker
Tell me what are some non-conventional ways in which you learn marketing and pick lessons? Like, for example, a guest that I spoke to, I think a few months ago, he said that, you know, when he watches movies, he tries to figure out that how is it the filmmaker is selling a certain film to us as a trailer or within the film, how are the characters selling themselves to each other? So what are some similar non-conventional ways that you believe are interesting for you to recommend?
00:55:10
Speaker
As a marketer, as a professional, I've always been fascinated because marketing happens all around you. And in every way, so I mean, if you put your mind to it, you can, movies is one way of seeing it, but you can see how, when you go for a shopping experience, I'm just giving you an example, you can see how a brand is presented to you, you know, from a
00:55:38
Speaker
premium brand where the product itself becomes a marketing, you know, when you hold the product, the packaging becomes a marketing. Sometimes when you observe the premium brand, you don't see the ads as much because the product itself is the ad and it's the product in the market. So I think it's more about keeping your eyes open and you will find marketing everywhere. And it's a hobby that I have in terms of trying to analyze, you know, when I buy something, I said, okay, why did I buy it?
00:56:08
Speaker
And what were the steps that led to this? Why is this in my hand? And every time I come back with a new learning right now. So I think I have reached a conclusion that I try and evaluate my own purchase behavior in a very robust way because right now I am on Netflix and I am on Hotstar.
00:56:30
Speaker
I basically don't see too many of the ads which are there on the cable TV which are there. So currently I'm trying to figure out if a person like me has to be marketed to, how do brands go about it? And I have made some really good observations on the digital, on how they contact me, how they re-market.
00:56:49
Speaker
How do i behave when i go to the store? What do i do? So i would suggest that be very if you if you just from tomorrow and you say that okay now i'll be aware of everything that i buy i will just analyze how and why did i buy it i will get a new learning from them as a marketing direction.
00:57:08
Speaker
Your family must hate you for this. You're asking your family, wife and kids or whatever. Why have you picked this one? Why not that one? Because I thought you would pick that one. So what's the reason for that?
00:57:26
Speaker
Nice, that's a good one. OK, and last two questions. First one is easy one. If you could go back to college again today, Lucknow University or any other college for that matter, what would you want to learn? If you were to be a marketer in 2021, what would you want to learn if you could go back to college again? No, I think as a marketer, it's now easier because all the domain experience and everything, you can Google what are the skills which are required.
00:57:55
Speaker
I think what I will do is that I will leave you with a thought in terms of as an overall professional, whether you're marketing, whether you're finance, what is the kind of things. If I was young, if I were to go back and talk to my 22 year old self, what would I tell him? So one thing which I would definitely like to tell all the youngsters over here is that do not, when you're getting into your new jobs and everything, do not focus on the designations as much.
00:58:23
Speaker
We sometimes tend to get swayed by what designation to choose, what is written on the card. I think we need to focus on getting the skills and building a skill set that will help us go forward. Second thing which I would definitely like to sell is that, no matter which function you're on, as a marketer, as a salesperson, as a finance person, focus on building a reputation that goes beyond your functional domain.
00:58:49
Speaker
So engage wide and engage deep with the organization. So talk to other leaders. Talk to leaders who are not from marketing. Talk to people who are in sales. Talk to people who are in finance. Ask them their point of view on marketing. What do they get? What do they not get? So as to understand better how your function is viewed, how you are seen, what is your role seen. And this helps you develop your organizational awareness.
00:59:17
Speaker
Last but not the least, I think I would ask everyone to be patient with their career. I always say your career is a marathon. It's not a sprint.
00:59:29
Speaker
So you need to sometimes increase your pace, sometimes you need to drop your pace. You need to see how you are doing as yourself, as a person. How are you doing health wise? Are you overstressing yourself? Are you burdening yourself to the point that you might reach a burnout or not?
00:59:48
Speaker
Think of your journey in the long term and plan it that way. And then you take the steps that you want to take. But don't just don't don't just dash in one particular direction. Got this. I think I think
Tanveer's Alternate Career Path and Conclusion
01:00:01
Speaker
this was probably the best part of the conversation. These three or four that you told me on the last question that I have, which is typically the last question for most of my guests.
01:00:11
Speaker
Is there a question that you always wanted some interviewer to ask you, but they never did? Is there a question like that? That's a very interesting question, actually. It stumbled everybody, like across the board, everybody just stumbled on this one. No, I think the only question which I sometimes think about is that I believe that most of us, they see that I belong to a particular generation of people.
01:00:37
Speaker
And I don't know about the generation growing up right now and going forward. I think they have a lot more control on the choices they make. I believe for a lot of us who have grown up in the 1980s, our careers are incidental. So sometimes I wonder if I was not a marketing professional, who would I be? Is something with it. So I definitely think that I would have gone into writing. I would have
01:01:04
Speaker
I would have owned my skills and tried to do story writing, writing scripts, writing stories, ads, whatever it might be, but definitely something to do with the writing. So do you write, I mean, off topic, but do you write right now also? I think I write every day, at least a page.
01:01:27
Speaker
It depends on what I want to write about. I just pick up a topic. It can be a reflection that I had for the day. It can be something that I found very funny. It's something that I want to sort of like tease out a little bit more, think about a little bit more. I feel that writing helps me think better. So I do that on a regular basis every day.
01:01:46
Speaker
So Tanveer, thank you so much for this conversation. It was immensely satisfying. And I got to pick a lot of things, at least for myself, despite 15 years in the business as a marketeer. So thank you so much. Appreciate you taking your time on a Sunday. And despite multiple requests to the schedule, thank you so much, Tanveer. Thank you, Saurabh. It was wonderful having a chat with you. I thoroughly enjoyed myself. And I think we should maybe at a later date do it again sometime.
01:02:41
Speaker
Absolutely, Inshallah. Thank you so much.