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Lauren Bright Pacheco
2.9k Plays1 year ago
Lauren Bright Pacheco is 3-time Emmy Award-winning Producer, Podcast Host, Media Writer and Storyteller.
You should know her spellbinding work on:
Happy Face Presents
Murder in Oregon
The Murders at White House Farm
Murder in Illinois
And as the producer of:
Speed of Sound with Steve Greenberg
Wholly Human with LeAnn Rimes.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:02
Speaker
You are listening to Something Rather Than Nothing, creator and host Ken Volante, editor and producer, Peter Bauer. This is Ken Volante with the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast, and she knows it already, but I'm super excited to have Lauren Wright Pacheco on the show. Lauren, welcome to Something Rather Than Nothing.
00:00:31
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me here. It's been something I've been very much looking forward to. Thank you. I really appreciate that.
Transition to Podcasting
00:00:43
Speaker
So listeners know, I know Lauren's voice initially from her reporting from her work in production on great programs such as Murder in Oregon, Murder in Illinois,
00:01:01
Speaker
Happy Face presents Too Faced and we're reaching Lauren from New York City and she has a background in TV and she's received three Emmy Awards as a daytime TV producer. However, Lauren, you are saying when we're talking about
00:01:20
Speaker
the career and that piece, you're saying you're recovering from that. So you had a lot of deep experience in that production, but now you're an award-winning podcaster. So how did this all happen?
00:01:35
Speaker
You know, it's actually interesting. Looking back, it all makes sense. I can't say at any point in my career I've ever really felt I've known exactly what I was doing or supposed to have been doing at the time. But that's part of the growth process as well, I guess. So I got a graduate degree in theatrical production, and I was an English major.
00:02:01
Speaker
And so I spent some early years in New York City. I actually was in a comedy group for a period of time. And some people might be familiar with a comedy group called Broken Lizard. And it was a bunch of guys I had gone to college with. And they went on to make movies.
00:02:21
Speaker
like Club Dread and the remake of The Dukes of Hazzard.
Experience on Dr. Oz Show
00:02:26
Speaker
And I went into broadcast journalism and was a reporter for a number of years for Food Network and then went into local television in New York.
00:02:37
Speaker
and ended up working in daytime television. And as a daytime television producer, yes, I have the distinction of being awarded a couple of Emmys, but the dubious distinction is the fact that those Emmys came from the Dr. Oz show, which hits a little different now in this political landscape than it did at the time.
00:03:04
Speaker
The world is bigger than us, you know, the world is bigger than us. But but at the time I was working for Dr. Oz, he was a daytime television doctor as opposed to an aspiring politician. And I because that's the way ratings work, ended up working on a lot of true crime on that show. Even though it was a health show, there was a salacious and voracious appetite.
00:03:31
Speaker
for true crime content.
Freedom in Podcasting
00:03:34
Speaker
I'm first and foremost a storyteller. Yeah. But I've always been drawn to human.
00:03:42
Speaker
emotion and stories and true crime and medical stories give you tremendous potential for both of those things. I think that what I found so frustrating about creating tape for television is I had to condense people into these pithy sound bites.
00:04:03
Speaker
there is an expectation, particularly in daytime television, that you have the audience attention for maybe a minute and 45 to two minutes and 30 seconds if it's going to be rolled into a studio show. And so that means that you had to get people to tell you their life story
00:04:26
Speaker
in 20 second sound bites. And that's very difficult to get a deep understanding of the human experience if it's the Cliff Notes version. Yeah. Well, my question had to be good and I'm thinking like,
00:04:43
Speaker
It's, uh, it's like casting the wide net like how the heck you get, you know, you go from that and doing the podcast.
Creative Storytelling Process
00:04:49
Speaker
And, but, you know, I think there's something in, in, in listening to, um, your programs, you know, that you write, uh, research and do where.
00:04:59
Speaker
you end up connecting with somebody's mind or how they tell the story and how what that narrative is. And I think it's fun to look at what would be the hard fact, crass details that you can bump into of murder, corruption, cover up, deep injustice and those type of thing. But also the creative component of trying to create some sort of coherent way of saying things that
00:05:30
Speaker
don't feel right no matter what. You can't look at the stories that you presented and you can feel okay about components of what people do in response and try to make the situation better, but you can't look at the blunt facts and be like, wow, look at what humans are doing. Look at what we're doing and there's a darkness to it. And how do you use
00:05:55
Speaker
your background in hearing about theater and the narration, how do you lean into that creativity to tell these compelling stories?
Podcasting Debut and Success
00:06:07
Speaker
Well, I think it's a really necessary ingredient because particularly in podcasting. So just to double back one second, the way in which I got into podcasting is daytime television, you have hiatus a number of weeks each year that the show is dark. And so a lot of producers take other jobs. And I was offered a job with a rival show
00:06:36
Speaker
my show didn't want me to take it. And so they asked if I would be willing
00:06:40
Speaker
to make a podcast with one of the contributors on the show, who is Melissa Moore, who is the daughter of Keith Hunter Jesperson, the happy face killer. And so the first podcast I ever tackled was Happy Face. And I was pretty lucky because the trailer for that podcast, so before the podcast even came out, the trailer went to number two across all genres. The trailer? The trailer.
00:07:09
Speaker
And it was fittingly a ghost story. And I say that because I don't remember if I told you this before or after we started recording, but my grandmother, my mother's mother, my granky was the best
00:07:26
Speaker
ghost storyteller ever. And that was the number one thing you looked forward to when we would visit. She would, if we were lucky, would agree to sleep in between us on the bed until we fell asleep and then she snuck out. But she would tell us stories that just captivated our imagination and chilled our bones just enough, but not so much that we couldn't sleep that night.
00:07:54
Speaker
Leave that to Hollywood. Exactly. It was an incredible talent and skill she had and one that I grew up really valuing and one that I very much miss. And so it was fitting that that trailer really was a ghost story that Melissa remembered from her childhood and her interactions with her father.
00:08:16
Speaker
But I really wasn't familiar with podcasts, so I didn't know what I should be creating. And that was the biggest blessing in the world because I wasn't trying to emulate anything. I was trying to share a story and had the liberty, you know, the
00:08:36
Speaker
really the joy of being able to do so in a way that I didn't have to condense the personal story into a 20-second pithy soundbite. And so it was really liberating for me. But because I'm a television producer, I wanted to create something you could watch with your eyes closed. And so I like to say that I create very visual podcasts.
00:09:04
Speaker
I like that description. Thank for saying those words out loud, just thinking deliberately to do that connected to what you produce. Yeah. Soundscaping is so important. And I don't think I'm really blessed to work with a teeny tiny team, um, three, uh, editors and they are all musicians and, um, they have that incredible gift for soundscaping and they understand, you know, I,
00:09:33
Speaker
I want to be able to see the story as I listen to it.
Team Collaboration and Soundscaping
00:09:38
Speaker
And I think that my latest podcast, the one we just finished, Murder in Miami, does that to a level that I'm very proud of and so blessed that I have a team that was willing to go the extra mile to bring it to fruition. They're just great.
00:10:00
Speaker
I remember the other question I'll ask, but I want to talk a little bit more. Yeah, your team is amazing, and I hear their names on series over time. Taylor Shaquon is my co-EP, and he is just a great creative hipster musician, editor.
00:10:21
Speaker
incredibly talented guy lives in Athens. And then Evan Tyre is in Brooklyn, a friend of his. And then Nick Carter, who started working with us on Murder Miami, is in LA. And he does a lot of the soundscaping you hear. So if you hear the story of our 83-year-old cocaine smuggler, Happy Miles, flying into a storm cloud and you can hear the plane shaking, that's Nick Carter.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for mentioning those folks and grab the opportunity because the work, the combined work, but that's a big piece of the whole feel. And I say that in the real sense of the word, the feel of the show and the way that you describe.
00:11:10
Speaker
It's also such a team effort, and that's something else that I really love about podcasting. I know it's said a lot, and it sounds cheesy, but it is really such a supportive, close-knit community on some levels, and particularly the team that I work on. There's no ego involved. It's just a shared, creative effort, and that's very unique.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah, and that's such an important point, and it's one that I can say professionally that I can recognize the deep importance of having that creative connection sustained over time as well.
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah, great, absolutely fantastic job team. But the one piece before you had to finish, you know, tell a little bit more about the podcast and was the thread between the creative, you know, your study and your head around the creative and kind of like the details within.
Balancing Entertainment and Serious Themes
00:12:18
Speaker
Because here's, and I'll try to explain it the best way I can very briefly.
00:12:23
Speaker
When I hear the shows that you do, and I'm listening to Murder in Miami right now, it's an entertaining story. And when you have an entertaining story tied to things like this, and there's pieces of pop culture, you're like, I feel like a little bit dirty. Because you feel like when we moved along in that narrative way, we sometimes can be like, wait a second, on the true crime, just that crass element of fact.
00:12:55
Speaker
The show and what you do is right in that territory. So I've been really interested in that creative versus the guts. So one, as I said, I don't approach true crime from a salacious.
00:13:13
Speaker
standpoint. I am never going to just do emotional and gore rubbernecking, but I also understand the profound importance of earning someone's ear. And so I know that if I have content that I want someone to take the time to not just consume, but to contemplate and I want it to resonate, it has to be worth their
00:13:42
Speaker
time. I am always so aware of every single second that goes into an episode because
00:13:54
Speaker
You're really earning someone's trust that it's worth their time, but you also are asking for their ear and that's such a tremendous Responsibility I feel as as as a producer and as a narrator Because I want someone to feel like it's time well spent. So I go very very
00:14:18
Speaker
to very great lengths to make sure that the story is as tight as it can be, that it's as entertaining as it can be. I like to write in and out of sound bites in a very specific way because they're not just being inserted there as filler. They're very, very purposefully picked and crafted. And I feel that that's all part of the ultimate package. So that kind of creativity comes with a great deal of discipline as well, if that makes sense.
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah, I would say everybody too, when you've caught their error, you also have the classic cliffhanger component audio idea at the end of it.
Influence of Family on Storytelling
00:15:01
Speaker
Whereas when folks execute like that, you got people hanging on for the next one. It feels like a classic style in that sense, and I love that, the almost detective piece to it.
00:15:12
Speaker
I appreciate that. I think that that comes a bit from television, but it also comes a lot from my dad, who was also a great storyteller, but he was a lawyer as well. So I kind of feel like at the end of every episode, I have to make my case for why people should want to tune into the next.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah. I'm going to have to ask you, so we're going to jump into a couple of our questions. But before I do that, I wanted to tell you a weird fact about me. I've lived a strange and interesting life. I've lived in different areas of the country. I've worked as a labor organizer. I've worked in a lot of politics, been around some significant events.
00:16:04
Speaker
But one of the strange facts about me is I've never really been in TV or done acting or anything like that. I'm just like this character or something. But I was in Washington, D.C., actually just outside of Washington, D.C., if people are familiar, Arlington, Virginia. And at the time, there was this brew pub called Bartos, and it was this old auto car dealership, but it had been refashioned into a pool place.
Unexpected Life Experiences
00:16:33
Speaker
I'm going to skip way ahead on this story. But from beginning to end, basically, I ended up as an extra on a TV show. And so I didn't even know at the beginning we were just approached like we need an extra for our show downstairs. We're doing a shoot. I'm in my early 20s. I'm like, what the heck are they asking us to do? Where are we going?
00:16:56
Speaker
And so we go down there and we still don't know what the show is about. And we're trying to find out, like, what are we extras for? And they pay us in like two pitches of beer and some like fries. And they're looking at us for wardrobe and they're like, this is America's Most Wanted Fox hit show America's Most Wanted. We want you in this scene. And I'm like, all right. So now I'm in my head and my head's already like buzzing. I'm like,
00:17:23
Speaker
Well, what look do they want between each of us, right? So they look at my friend and they give him a silver shirt or something. They give another guy, my other friend, John, a hat and Scruff is here up. They look at me, they're like, you're fine. And I'm like, wow, what an affirmation. I'm like, I've stumbled upon the America's most wanted set and I don't need wardrobe.
00:17:47
Speaker
And I'm a perfect extra in front of the guy sitting on the pool table who's going to kill his girlfriend in the next scene. I guess it's either a compliment or a call to reevaluate your wardrobe. I've been rattled ever since. I've never known what happened. There's one other piece, though.
00:18:15
Speaker
I'm looking across, we were approached, I guess you would call, but there's the group of three young women, ones wearing this very ostentatious hat, like somebody's like an actress or doing something wild, and make eye contact, and I'm not even trying to make eye contact, like I'm drinking my beer, I'm eating like vegetarian chili, and the first thing she said when she came up to us was, do you want to do a shoot?
00:18:41
Speaker
And I don't know what these these gals are and I don't know if they're talking like shooting up or something or they were like it and then I'm like realized quickly as lingo there say you want to you know, hop on the film and It was such a strange like at the beyond like no, we're like totally cool here I don't know you you're very bizarre looking but that's how I was recruited two pitches of beer and a Bucket of french fries
00:19:05
Speaker
That's an awesome story. I've always, you know, been so curious for people who do those reenactment scenes if they end up getting accused of being the actual criminals, you know, if they're out in public. Maybe that's why I've had trouble for 30 years because everybody's seen me on the street, remembers that scene, and they're creeped out by me and don't know why.
00:19:27
Speaker
They can't quite place it, but they think they remember you from a pool hall. Oh, that's funny. That's awesome. Yes, I thought of that once or twice in listening to your show. I got to tell her the America's Most Wanted story. So I wanted to ask someone the big art questions. This is something rather than nothing show. And we obviously think a ton about what you do creatively and how you spend your time.
00:19:57
Speaker
One of the questions I ask is, when did you see yourself as an artist?
Early Passion for Storytelling
00:20:04
Speaker
Or if it's easier as a creator, people look at themselves differently. But when did you see that that's who you were, that's what you were doing? You know, that's a really great question.
00:20:21
Speaker
Because, as I mentioned, I grew up very much emulating the storytelling skills of my grandmother and knowing that that was of incredible value. And even though she didn't have some kind of highfalutin career or live a very prosperous life, she had that incredible
00:20:48
Speaker
wealth of creativity and as a kid I gravitated to that. So I remember writing my first play when I was in the third grade and of course it was very self-serving because I wrote it for myself and my best friend at the time and
00:21:09
Speaker
Oddly enough, I gave us both leads in the play. Of course. It wasn't very well written and it didn't ever end up making the stage. That's okay, third grade Lauren. It's okay. It's fine. You tried your best at that moment. Nothing else could have happened.
00:21:27
Speaker
It was important enough that it was something that I had to filter through the papers when my parents ended up moving from the home that they had raised their five kids in. So I always knew that I wanted to create stories. And I was always writing poetry, which sounds so pompous. Oh, no, it's good. It's good.
00:21:56
Speaker
But I also knew both sides of Rapper's Delight by the Sugarhill Gang, the radio-friendly version and the naughty one. By the time I was in the fourth grade, so I considered that poetry as well. Sure was. Oh my gosh, the biggest thrill ever was I was lucky enough to produce a podcast called Speed of Sound, which you love.
Love for Hip-Hop and Cultural Insights
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah, I've listened. I've listened to that. Oh my gosh. Steve Greenberg is just like always talking. It's a great show. Love that. I love that show. And got to track down the living members of the Sugarhill Gang. I didn't hear that one. All right. I'll send it to you. It's so good. It's the birth of hip-hop. It's a really great episode. And Steve is just the kind of person I would
00:22:50
Speaker
wine and dine just to sit across the table and listen to him tell stories. Just listen, yeah. Just be the sponge taking the info, right? He's the guy behind Who Let the Dogs Out. It was his vision that that would be the song that would take over the world, and I will be hard-pressed to get through a week without hearing that song.
00:23:11
Speaker
in some way, shape or form. And it worked. It worked. The dogs. The dogs. Exactly. Discovered Hanson, discovered the Jonas Brothers and AJR. And he's just. Now, wait a second. AJR AJR was on that song record player.
00:23:37
Speaker
Yes, Daisy the Great. Yes, Daisy the Great. My goodness. We're going to bounce a bit here. But yes, I recognize that name from that track, which once you listen to, you've listened to 25 times and have to put it aside and then you go back to it like you said you wouldn't go back to it after a couple of days, but you do.
00:24:00
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Did I send you the video for that, too? The anime. I checked it out. It's a great video. I checked it out. But you're talking about on that show and the different folks that he's worked with. And no, I've listened to that. I haven't heard the Sugar Hill Gang one, but I was of the age, too. And I was born in 72, so early 80s rap, as it was called. It was just rap music. And I remember
00:24:29
Speaker
You know, I was I was a break dancer when I was like 11 12 trying to be a white boy break dancer. And so I was so immersed into the culture
Career Path in Media
00:24:39
Speaker
of the time. It was the best. We'd get cassette tapes. Somebody's brother would go down to New York City from Providence, Rhode Island on a bus, get the cassette tape or whatever they're playing down in Brooklyn or whatever. They'd be back up and then they make copies of that tape that week. You know what's playing down in New York City because it's not like now there is like
00:25:00
Speaker
No, no, you you had you know marketing marketing was being selling those cassettes and and and You know records out of the back of trunks, but you will love that episode Particularly given your interest in that time. Awesome. But yeah, so yeah by fourth grade I was I was memorizing every single word of rappers delight so
00:25:25
Speaker
I think I always knew, to be perfectly honest, that I wanted to create content that resonated with people and held their attention.
00:25:42
Speaker
College and was an English major theater minor I went to as I said graduate school for theatrical production and And and knew that I just wanted to create content What school did you go to for a theatrical production? London Academy of music and dramatic art. Oh, hey. Wow, that's awesome. Oh
00:26:05
Speaker
which was a nice experience to live outside of the United States for a little while too. And I got to travel. And then I came back and I ended up moving back to New York and working there and staying there in radio and television. And so because I started out in radio, I really feel like podcasting is full circle in a weird way.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah, I like to see the formats and the storytelling of how you tell
Organic Growth in Podcasting
00:26:39
Speaker
a story. I think I've become interested in it because I never expected to do stuff on audio myself, you know, and it's like there's one bit about what you said about going in and doing podcasting, which I really connect to because I was talking to somebody about this that when I started podcasting, I didn't like podcasts.
00:27:03
Speaker
Like I like some of them. I like the few and like nothing against it, but I wasn't like down with it. I wasn't hearing a ton where I'm like, this is like this medium or something. I didn't understand it. I wasn't that much into it. Um, so I didn't listen to much except anyone that did on Richard Simmons, like that finding Richard Simmons. When I've lost my mind over that one, I probably listened to five times, but, um,
00:27:26
Speaker
But I didn't know. So when I went into this doing a podcast, which is a curious thing for anybody to try, I didn't know anything whatsoever about structure outside of maybe how I might structure it or maybe how they did on 60 Minutes or how Johnny Carson did it or whatever. Like, however you talk to people and do that type of thing.
00:27:52
Speaker
But it became really interesting to me because as I've done it, I've been connected more with the collective aspect of it, like the organizing, the how do I get to talk to somebody from Wellington, New Zealand, a Maori writer who does science fiction. How did that happen and how does that happen now?
00:28:10
Speaker
at this time in like complete potential so journey going using a medium at first to do something and then engaging within and saying holy shit i got on the right street right like the traffic's over there like i'm on a good street here and just staying on on that street but i found it very interesting to say when you bopped over you had some leverage it sounded like in getting you know the show and they wanted you to do the show and not compete and then
00:28:38
Speaker
You pulled it together the way that you felt it should go together as a story, right? And that's how you learned it. Yeah, I think that also my strength or value, I think, as a producer in television really was I was always more interested in the people.
00:29:01
Speaker
rather than the story or the ratings the story could generate, I really care deeply about the people who entrust me with sharing their story. And I think because of that, it made it easier for me to
00:29:26
Speaker
create content that had an emotional pull even without the visual cues. You can watch an interview on television and see from the cutaways of the producer or the reporter interviewing the person that you were being prepped for an emotional question and you don't really have those
00:29:56
Speaker
you know, smoke and mirrors with audio. There has to be an authenticity. There has to be something behind it. Yeah. Yeah. There has to be a connection, not just with the people speaking, but with the listener as well. And so I think that because I've always taken that responsibility to heart, that maybe plays into the authenticity
00:30:25
Speaker
of the content. Yeah, that authenticity and you connect into the human piece of it. I do a lot of human to human work. And I think about this idea of interviewing or conversation. And I don't know what other conversation, it sounds strange to say, I don't know what type of conversations other people have. If I look on podcasting and the content and just maybe in my show, it's six days of
00:30:55
Speaker
which is a big thought and all that type of thing. But the other pieces is that being a labor organizer and actually repping tens of thousands of workers who, when they talk to me, I have to establish a quick relationship with them, be of help and advocacy and understanding and compassion and advocate.
Importance of Listening in Storytelling
00:31:20
Speaker
So whatever I can be handed in that realm is anything in the world, including the psychological state of the person who is experiencing the work trouble, the addictions. It's not all dour. There's glory in these type of things. But I'm saying in the needs, in the conversation. So I found myself prepped to have any conversation in the entire world. And when I go on the street, people talk to me about stuff. You'd be surprised. I don't know if it happens to you. But people are just like, hey, this. And I'm like, why me? You don't know me.
00:31:50
Speaker
And I kind of look like a strange guy, and I don't sound like I'm from around here. I'm from the other side of the country. But I just found that dynamic so fascinating to me of how you have a conversation. And with your background, the amount of people you would come in contact with, all different parts of society, how you're able to have a conversation, there's just something to it that's
00:32:16
Speaker
If it's authentic, there's something to it there that's kind of tough to describe. Well, you know what? I think that honestly, to be a great conversationalist, you have to be an even better listener. And I think that people know when they're being listened to.
00:32:37
Speaker
And interestingly enough, I do think that there is a lot of content out there. There is no shortage of podcasts where it's literally just two people shooting the shit over a microphone. And sometimes it does feel like content for the sake of content's sake, that they're just trying to fill time.
00:33:01
Speaker
because they have to have a daily amount of. But when I listen to your podcast, there's so much thought and appreciation that goes into the topics and the people that you pick before you even utter a word to them. So I think that it's that intention as well.
00:33:30
Speaker
And I think you attract a very specific listener for that reason. And I think that, you know, look, there are plenty of people who do want to listen to Podcast to Kill Time. There are other people who really want to invest their time in listening to something.
00:33:48
Speaker
and want it to reward them with a greater understanding or knowledge. And so that's really what I think you're creating. And I appreciate and value that. I appreciate what you have to say and it does mean a lot and I have no trouble telling you that. And I think that's the piece here in being able to talk about podcasting and, you know,
00:34:16
Speaker
a connection we probably have is not only to do to produce, but there's larger issues at hand. So I was thinking and thinking about senior work and having chatted before about
00:34:34
Speaker
Justice and the philosophical backdrop for this in some of my
Philosophical Thoughts on Justice
00:34:38
Speaker
training. So my training is in English lit Yay, English lit forever in philosophy And I studied philosophy. I got a master's in philosophy at Marquette University. I did my labor studies over at the University of Massachusetts master's in science and
00:34:58
Speaker
Um, but, uh, one of the, one of the things I wanted to say was, uh, at Marquette I studied, uh, Plato. We had to study four big philosophers, Plato, Aristotle, boom, boom.
00:35:09
Speaker
Aquinas, St. Thomas Aquinas, and Immanuel Kant. We had to study those four, and I'm glad I studied each of them. But within Plato, there's this kind of common or grand idea is that there's this great work, The Republic, which is a massive work popular in Western culture about
00:35:31
Speaker
Basically about what is justice, right? And the psychological idea literary folks or philosophers put out is that Plato sees an unjust society in Greece. That unjust faulty society kills a great man like Socrates who is seeking truth.
00:35:53
Speaker
What's wrong? Right. So this work psychologically is thought to be what type of society is just and which one doesn't kill Socrates, but elevate Socrates in the curious mind. And so. I become just really deeply interested in the stories you tell, but the underlying question
00:36:19
Speaker
of the belief in justice, the belief in what is just and what is right. And in your reporting, the difficult but important exposure to
00:36:33
Speaker
There ain't no fucking justice anywhere that you're seeing. I remember your description of one story, like you uncover another thing and you're like, good gosh, there's another layer here of that somebody didn't do or another layer that celebrated this false story. And so I think like that's such at the nub and I know what you talk about.
00:36:54
Speaker
Is is is justice and i don't mind that it's a big it's a big backdrop for the question cuz it's play those trying to you know what is justice but. What does that drive in your investigation and you doing podcast for justice what's that mean for you now where's that fit in the story that you're telling that.
00:37:19
Speaker
There are some wildly unjust wrong structures and practices say in the United States.
Flaws in the Justice System
00:37:29
Speaker
Well, I think that a great deal of my personal drive comes from the fact that I mentioned that my dad was an attorney. But he also was a ridiculously good one. He was first from Colgate, second from Harvard Law. He was editor of the Harvard Law Review. And then he was head of the,
00:37:58
Speaker
chair of the board of ethics for the New York State Bar Association. And I remember going to his corner office, you know, with dark mahogany and leather. And above all was this gigantic drawing of a lawyer standing in front of a cowering man in rags, basically, and justice behind him.
00:38:27
Speaker
holding a scale and a blindfold. And I always thought that the legal system was put in place to protect the weak and the vulnerable. And very much believed that everybody involved
00:38:48
Speaker
with the law on both sides of law enforcement and the judicial aspect had everyone's best interests in mind. I was really naive. I think that as I've had the opportunity to really tackle more convictions, you really realize how
00:39:19
Speaker
broken the system is when you realize the number of potential wrongful convictions and that when, unfortunately, our system decides that you're guilty, it is designed to move forward at lightning.
00:39:39
Speaker
pace, but when it realizes that it's made a mistake, it will double down and it corrects itself at the pace, I like to say, of a frozen slug. It takes, there's a great organization that's a Jesuit, founded by a Jesuit priest called Centurion, and it's one of the oldest innocence organizations, and I think their stats are that
00:40:07
Speaker
In general, if someone is actually innocent, so in cases of actual innocence, it takes on average eight years and $350,000 to get that person out of prison. And that's with actual innocence. It's the most difficult to comprehend, either side of it, time, time and money.
00:40:33
Speaker
I have been fortunate enough to get to fill in for a man named Jason Flom who has an incredible podcast called Wrongful Conviction. And I've guested for him. Great job, by the way. I heard it. Yeah.
00:40:48
Speaker
Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. The last one that I just taped, which hasn't aired yet, is a man named Lamar Johnson, who was wrongfully convicted in Missouri and spent nearly 29 years in prison. And they knew between the time he was convicted and sentenced that two other people had actually committed the murder and had admitted to it.
00:41:16
Speaker
28 years You know It's no way what's the mechanism when you look on the outside I I've heard some of your descriptions It's like this frustration and looking at like is there a key that unlocks like is there a truth key? Like is there a here the things are here that shows it was not the case Can we put it into the can we in this you can't put? You know pay to enter
00:41:44
Speaker
Well, but you know what, I think it goes back to, you know, Plato and Socrates, when you are asking the big questions and you are up against a system where they're like, the system is the system and the system works because it's a system. And there's prison for profit. And you have prosecutors who are allowed to incentivize witness testimony. That's allowed. You know, you can't do that for the defense. You can't get somebody to, you know, go on the stand and lie because you're paying them.
00:42:14
Speaker
and get away with it legally, but the prosecutors can. And they're more interested in winning than in justice. And I didn't mean to jump in there, but I mean, I was able to see, I remember I lived in the DC area in the 90s and all those super crimes, super predator, like that ethos and stuff. It was fucking disgusting. It was like, I couldn't believe how many
00:42:41
Speaker
Like I could palpably see and I'm not this is not like anti-cop thing and they get into all that I'm saying like I could actively see patrols all the time in a regular working class neighbor I was like there's so many cops like all around here in DC. I'm like my goodness
00:42:57
Speaker
and then the explosion of prosecutions. And I did some deep research on what you're talking about of the private money incentive within prisons and prison labor. So it's just, you know, I'm a labor union guy, right? So obviously going to get pissed off at 13 cents an hour labor of people who are getting shoved into prisons who haven't done anything wrong. But it was this acceleration that I've seen over the like
00:43:23
Speaker
last 20-25 years and quick changes and for me it feels that it's accelerated a problematic whore with private money. To buy a stock
00:43:42
Speaker
on a stock market at a value and potentially make money of value that's derived from essentially shadow labor in prisons. Like what else? Where do I get my next penny? I don't know. It is a modern sanitized spend on slavery. It's really incredible.
00:44:13
Speaker
the incarceration numbers and stuff. I even seen it like when I remember looking when I was younger. I wasn't looking at those stats or anything but it.
00:44:21
Speaker
It was just growing and growing and growing and then the per capita per year. And here's the thing is, Lauren, is we all have different experiences. But when I was in elementary school and I was screwing around with my brown and black friends, they get in trouble. I never got in trouble. What do you think happened when I was screwing around after going to the bar when I was in my 20s,
Racial Inequalities in Legal Outcomes
00:44:41
Speaker
right? My friends would be, who'd get in trouble? I'm not saying it was just like that. I'm saying there was the same dynamic.
00:44:47
Speaker
I could get away with things. I might have the chance to get away with things. There's no shortage of stories that I personally have firsthand knowledge of, of white frat boys getting caught with drugs and having their records taken care of because
00:45:10
Speaker
their affluent parents were able to pull some strings and make some donations. And then you have the prison filled with young men and women of a different shade who didn't have the same privilege. And they're paying for it with life sentences, even in states where marijuana is now legal. And that's what they were initially arrested for.
00:45:41
Speaker
You know, you talked about the meaning of justice and I was asked that question on a previous podcast. And I have to say that the answer I've settled on is justice is not one size fits all.
00:46:02
Speaker
Unfortunately, you have very different rules for different people of different levels of privilege in our society. And we have to understand, acknowledge, and admit that before we can start fixing the system. And I also think that there should be a lot more empathy and compassion
00:46:27
Speaker
when we look at criminal activity, because it's not a level playing ground. Yeah. Yeah. I really hear that. And thanks for mentioning that too. And I think at the root of it is that folks
00:46:47
Speaker
A lot of good hearted folks, you know, who don't buy the narrative, you know, race, drug narrative, um, who, who question that type of thing is, is it's, it's really important to do because even if you believe with certain components of policing, say in the American setting, like just like a middle ground, like if you agree with certain components, you have to agree that the thing is transmogrify it beyond.
00:47:15
Speaker
understanding that could have been 30, 35 years ago, when you see military type things on American streets for dissent, it isn't like agree or disagree. It's being like, what the hell? Like, why is it all that? So it feels different. So I think you can maintain a reasonable position. It's like things seem to be so far beyond structurally and in the infrastructure or something.
00:47:41
Speaker
I don't know. It's interesting. I think it's kind of insidious because it almost becomes like a frog swimming in gradually boiling water. The frog won't jump out. It almost loses its ability to feel the increasing heat level until it's too late. I think that because of the media and because of the content coming out of Hollywood that is
00:48:10
Speaker
broadcast into our homes, we are used to seeing an increasingly military, a militarized version of law enforcement. And so it's not as jarring when we see it up close and personal.
Media's Influence on Perception of Law Enforcement
00:48:28
Speaker
Go back to the early childhood days of, oh, good God, I'm trying to think of, what was it with Gomer Pyle?
00:48:40
Speaker
Yeah, you know, smack your cap on your head. Oh, come on. That was a very different kind of sheriff, you know, that might as well be, you know, the bully, the bully stick, you know, not an assault weapon. Right. Not not not a military grade assault weapon. And kids today are growing up seeing
00:49:05
Speaker
law enforcement officers carrying increasingly more advanced militarized weaponry. And so it's not as shocking, but it's not the Andy Griffith. As an activist for me, as an activist for myself, it's always like the counterbalance. What the hell do you have to protect so fiercely? Why the hell are the people so pissed off at this particular moment?
00:49:31
Speaker
Period. There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of outrage in the world. There really is. All right. I wanted to jump in a bit here, Lauren, talking about talking about art in its role and we've been talking about activism and in the search for justice.
Art as a Universal Expression
00:49:53
Speaker
But what I wanted to what I wanted to ask you is
00:50:00
Speaker
What is art? And also, what do you think art's role is? And we're talking here in March 2023, the world feels different to me and a lot of people that I talked to then it did a few years ago. Is the role change, is the role different now? So art and its role today.
00:50:23
Speaker
Oh, what a, what a little question. Yeah. That's not a big question at all. Now that's, that's a great question and it's a huge one. So I guess for me, I would have to say that art is pure expression.
00:50:44
Speaker
And I think that there is something about that that is very universal in its humanity, but also I think that it transcends culture, time, and place. And so in a way, it's kind of the antidote to the Tower of Babel.
00:51:13
Speaker
It unifies us. Art is expression and it's unifying. And I feel that it is an expression that connects emotionally. I love that. Now, one of the things about the question connected to with the role of art, I mean, I think I could speak for myself in like, I remember in a particular moment, like,
00:51:43
Speaker
Uh, you know, I started the show before the pandemic, then the pandemic was on and entertainment changed and people talk and change or what they want to do, or could feel psychologically, they could do change. Like all these things, um, all these things changed, uh, with the show. But one of the things is I.
00:52:02
Speaker
begin to wonder amidst all these changes. I think one way is easy to say is like, look, human beings, like whenever they're around, like the sky is always falling in for some reason, right? It's like.
00:52:14
Speaker
There's some cataclysm or apocalypse or revelations, and it just happens. It's the way humans are. And they do that to create a finite amount of time so they can derive meaning for life or whatever that is for. But what I wanted to see from you is
00:52:36
Speaker
Is it different now? I mean, we had a discussion about justice. It seems more difficult. It seems more wrong. Climate, it's getting hot. We see whether we want to believe it or not. Things are happening. So when you go in to make your podcast and you're creating your things, is it different now? Is it the struggle that the same? You know, that's interesting because I feel like there is something that
00:53:07
Speaker
makes it more important than ever to create content that resonates. So maybe the concept of audio activism that I'm striving for is because I feel that there needs to be a purpose and I feel that it's important to harness
00:53:31
Speaker
art for a reason. And maybe that sounds pompous, but it's also something that there's a responsibility, I feel. That time is more valuable, or at least it feels so. Maybe it's because I'm getting older. Maybe it's because it feels more precarious. But I do know that
00:53:59
Speaker
There seems to be as we said earlier, you know, there is no shortage of anger and outrage in the world. I want to use my efforts and my time to create and support other creators who are trying to maybe ease that a bit. I want to bring more
00:54:22
Speaker
healing and more connection And more good to the extent that I can and that's why I think that I've gravitated towards What I have because it seems to be a good combination of my skill set yeah, yeah, I um, I could see here's something in there as far as like
Finding Hope Through Creativity
00:54:45
Speaker
that hope for good, like I was listening to this podcast, I might not have the exact title down on soul recovery, right? And you know, it sounds a particular way, but there's this brilliant point she had made in it. And it really hit me at the time that I had heard it had to do with like how you're spending your time during a day. And when you spend it very differently, and when you open up space that is geared towards
00:55:15
Speaker
physical sunlight the sunlight hope that I'm gonna try to go at positive intent and be like I'm gonna be a pleasant or a
00:55:26
Speaker
something about your day, that's just just a reorientation because of moving that way. And the just fundamental point I heard, which really meant a lot to me was that the space that that shakes up and creates where you end up trying to project, you'd be end up projecting that out, you're you're you're inhabiting that. And I think
00:55:47
Speaker
within podcast and within organizing within search for justice like that question it seems silly to talk about but heck it always did it did in the Greeks it did right now saying what the search for you know justices is that there's something inspiring or passionate or curious and hopeful and I know it might be an age thing when the pandemic first started my reaction was we're all gonna friggin die and haven't done shit yet
00:56:18
Speaker
That was my reaction. Now I had done stuff. I wasn't getting down on myself. I've had a storied career serving people in labor for the longest time. But I'm like, no, no, no, that's not, that's not. And so whether it was creating art in whatever way that I did, I'm like, the bell's been rung for me and it rang once that pandemic came down. I thought it was gonna wipe us off. So once I heard the bell, I can't unhear it. And it's added a greater urgency or a desire for
00:56:48
Speaker
Pulling myself out of the mire in the muck and saying, yes, that's there. I can tell you all about it. I can tell you all about it, but that redirection of energy. And when you talk about when you bring that into show, when you talk about justice, it's a challenge to bring up the word. That's what a philosopher does. That's what a thinker does. And.
00:57:10
Speaker
I think it's inspiring. I think it's right oriented. I'm not trying to convince myself, but I'm affirming what you're saying. I think it's right oriented and people feel good and being like, shit, it feels like we're going to try something about this or I don't know.
00:57:26
Speaker
Yes, to all of that, actually. There's also, we talk about intention, and so one of my previous podcasts, Murder in Illinois, I revisited the case of Christopher Vaughan, who was convicted of killing his wife and three children, and we re-examined
00:57:51
Speaker
whether or not there was the possibility that he was wrongfully convicted.
Facing Criticism and Validation
00:57:57
Speaker
And the podcast very much comes out on the side that he was wrongfully convicted. I took so much heat for revisiting that story. I was targeted on social media, even if you look at that podcast now, it has
00:58:14
Speaker
evenly between one stars and five stars. People thought it was a good use of their time or quote unquote the worst podcast ever made. No middle ground there. Oh gosh, people accused me of
00:58:30
Speaker
Taking on the story because that was my intention to leave my husband and kids and go marry Christopher Vaughn And that's why I wanted to get him out of prison. I mean some really ugly stuff was my way The beauty of it is though that now I'm about to do an update episode because very notable innocence projects are backing him and
00:58:55
Speaker
And there is a very significant swell of support because other people now understand what I saw and validate what we were able to uncover in that podcast. And that ties back into the audio activism. So even though that was an uncomfortable
00:59:26
Speaker
commitment to make, to take on a family annihilator case. And even though I was criticized and really hung out to drive for a long period of time, it's ended up coming full circle because of the audio activism aspect.
00:59:46
Speaker
that there are now thousands of people who have joined the mother's Facebook page and created a whole community. Yeah, starting to do something. Yeah, and offering their skills and talents to assist his new legal team. And so that makes me ultimately, it restores and renews my faith in
01:00:13
Speaker
the greater good. It really does because it shows that when the legal system has failed, that something as simple as podcasting can become another court in which to retry a case.
01:00:28
Speaker
to retry a case in the court of public opinion and by drawing attention to it again, perhaps compel the people in positions of power to reevaluate something that was a mistake.
01:00:46
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it's the, it's that area. I mean, I think you're going to be tightly tied to the changes in press and press media. Um, I would say that throughout my life, seeing significant changes, print media being, when I was younger and newspapers and those types of things and all those things are radically changed in the different forms. So, uh, question is like, you know, where do I get from my information from? How do I learn something? I heard people mentioning, which I hadn't heard in conversation.
01:01:15
Speaker
Like, rather than Googling it, they're like, I wanted to learn how to do something. They're like, oh, just check out a podcast that talks about that. And I was like, wow, that's interesting that people answering the questions of how to do something by potentially listening to podcasts. And that just indicated to me that people are like, somebody must have covered this. Let me listen to it for a while, which is a curiosity.
01:01:35
Speaker
That's interesting, but it's also kind of dangerous, right? Who shall guide you? Who shall guide you? Because it depends what kind of... Look, the content that I create, because it goes through iHeart, has to be scrutinized by a legal team.
Ensuring Content Accuracy
01:02:00
Speaker
just get to say what I want to say without being able to provide backup and it's vetted. And so there is a greater
01:02:11
Speaker
level of authority that has to sign off on what I say. Anybody can put out a podcast. And so you don't have a lot of vetting going on. But I also think we were going back to the difference in journalism.
01:02:32
Speaker
Because of popularity that we started talking about in the beginning with music, you have stuff is being dictated by search engine optimization. So it's more about what people are clicking on on websites that ultimately is driving the content for a lot of mainstream news. And so it's difficult to know.
01:03:01
Speaker
Well, it's my, my analogy is the bookstore analogy and it's like, um,
01:03:08
Speaker
If you know what you're looking for exactly, then you already have it. It's that Plato riddle in there. And then if you don't know what you're looking for, you're not going to be able to pull it in when you see it. So there's this discovery in encountering on bookshelves in an environment of being like, I don't know what I'm going to find. I need to be situated in the right place for these things to happen. And a podcast might
01:03:34
Speaker
be that type of thing for learning or, um, yeah. And it's also not, you know, every, I, you know, for podcasts, everybody does it for different reasons, but, you know, I think it leads to some misconceptions because, you know, I mean, I, I'm almost not the way that I do it, but 50 year old, like white appearing male podcast. Wow. This sounds super exciting. Let me run towards this, you know, but it's, um,
01:04:02
Speaker
There are people who are committed to it doing podcasts over time, and those are podcasters over time, and there's four trillion other things. No shade on anybody. Everybody give it a go. But yeah, there are those things, but there's a difference between
01:04:20
Speaker
you know sustained creation and exploration and not that's all and i see and bump into a lot of great shows where folks are committed to their learning or their mission and what they're doing and and that's why
01:04:37
Speaker
I get excited about a field now that I was like, this is where I'll get to talk and meet some interest in people like Lauren Bright Pacheco or whatever. But you know what, but look, that in and of itself
01:04:54
Speaker
Gosh, sign me up for any field where I get to meet exciting, interesting people. That is what makes me tick. I love listening to people. I love talking to people. So I guess I've kind of found my perfect field. There we go. We're both well situated at the moment. I wanted to ask you about
01:05:25
Speaker
the murder in Oregon. And it's a strange way. What I wanted to do is mention some impressions that I had on it. And I'll also mention a curious listening habit, so it'll be worth your while. So I listened to Murder in Oregon and folks, listeners by Lauren Bright Pacheco. You can find it all your podcast places, but it's
01:05:51
Speaker
I'm not going to give all the details. I'm going to tell you my impressions. So it's about a murder killing of the head of the Department of Corrections that ended the 1980s in Oregon.
Emotional Connection to Podcast Topics
01:06:05
Speaker
Now, I grew up out east in Rhode Island, and I've been in Oregon for about 10, 11 years. So I don't know the stories that would have popped up. And in hearing about it, it was just such a
01:06:21
Speaker
heart-wrenching and scary exposition of true corruption, cover-up silencing, erasing. That's the story. But it had this eerie piece to it. I'm in Albany, Oregon, 20 minutes away from Salem, and I was able to go to the spot where there's the memorial and
01:06:51
Speaker
I felt super weird all of a sudden. The reason why is because I could hear your description throughout murder in Oregon. And I didn't know you're always like, this is close. It's nearby talking about the situation, how events happen in proximity, but then standing there and saying, holy shit, like I'm in the spot now in my way of understanding was conceptual or what you told me, but it's very much placed now.
01:07:18
Speaker
So the strange listening habit with Murder in Oregon also happened with another of your podcasts I listened to is that I listen to podcasts at night, sometimes my partner Jenny, who falls asleep before I do.
01:07:33
Speaker
And I listen to the whole podcast. And then the next day, if she's fallen asleep too early, maybe within the first 50 minutes, I listen to it again. So anyways, I'm a repeat listener of your podcast because of that, because of my relationship habits. I probably listened to the last couple. I tell you no word of a lie because of this strange habit.
01:07:59
Speaker
I've probably listened to at least the first half of the episodes of Murder in Miami at least six times a piece. Oh my gosh. Because I'm still awake. I'm still awake. I'm like, I'll just finish the episode again. You sound like me because Phil Stanford, who is the former
01:08:23
Speaker
journalist for the Oregonian who is the reason why I did Murder in Oregon and ultimately the reason I ended up doing Murder in Miami. He said, how many times do you listen to each episode?
01:08:40
Speaker
Kid you not, I'm probably in the 30 to 40 times because every single thing I tweak back and forth. So good. You're next to me and my editors. You're probably the person who's listened to it most. I get a bit too. Just to add on, I just released an episode with Melissa Oliveri yesterday and now I'm starting to notice in consecutive things
01:09:08
Speaker
like these obsessions. I talked about my obsession with albums and when I get a new album of listening to an entire album every day for a period of time and I described openly and with deep pride listening to Taylor Swift's 1989 for 18 straight months once a day
01:09:31
Speaker
every day. So what I'm saying is I probably eased into this weird habit of, okay, let's do it again. And it's at nighttime anyways, so it's all nighttime, so it doesn't matter. But it wafted into my head five or six times, so no ill effects yet, unless you can identify any.
01:09:53
Speaker
I would say with the Taylor Swift thing, I think my daughter could give you a run for your money. She's 21 and Taylor is her involved deal. And then I will tell you that my husband would probably say that he feels sorry for you because you next to him probably has to hear my voice the most before you fall.
01:10:15
Speaker
I'm the queen of saying, are you still awake? And talking to him, keeping him up at night. Yeah. No, that is the voice thing I think for anybody who tries to create and perform is like,
01:10:31
Speaker
is super strange. I know that there's this idea within a podcast and in transcript where there's a verbal word representation of the work that we do. And then those words are compiled. And I'm like, I've been talking on this show for an amount of like almost a week if you listen to it together. And I said, I'm a little bit scared, a little bit inspired to find out what word was mentioned 3620 times.
01:11:01
Speaker
Going back to you standing at the dome building because you sent me a picture when you were there, you texted it to me.
Reflection on Michael Franke's Memorial
01:11:10
Speaker
It was very interesting because I had read so much and researched so much and spoken.
01:11:16
Speaker
to Michael Frankie's brothers, Pat and Kevin, so many times before I actually got to go there. And I went and visited it with them. And they have a very different
01:11:35
Speaker
It's become a place where they go to connect with their brother now. It's a way of feeling connected to him. And I think it's really a big part of why Kevin is still in Salem. But I felt it too when I stood there with them.
01:11:57
Speaker
That is still to me to have a public official who's assassinated outside the
01:12:08
Speaker
the building where he works the night before he was going to present his findings on corruption within his department in front of a legislative committee on the topic. And it remains unsolved. And the only thing we know, that we know Ken for sure, is that Frank Gable did not kill Michael Franke. Right. That's the one thing you know for sure.
01:12:34
Speaker
Yeah, but they're not looking for the people who are actually responsible because it's too inconvenient and too messy. And that goes back to injustice. That goes back to corruption. That goes back to...
01:12:51
Speaker
Well, there's a disproportional. So I'm at that site and talking about that. It's it's it's disproportional for me, because I can tell you because I think unique responses to this type of thing in similar experience are interesting. So I had started by being over at the Salem hospital, which is the connected to the filming of One Flew Over to Cuckoo's Nest. And
01:13:14
Speaker
And it's a very unique, fascinating experience for me. And there's a lot of energies. I saw two people saging themselves walking out of that place. It's Oregon, but you know, cause it's just weird. And I couldn't find where the dome, but I, I know Salem a little bit. It's a, it's kind of a mystery to me. Um, but I didn't know where I've been around there, but I'm usually popping here and somebody's telling me to go there.
01:13:39
Speaker
Over by the memorial and I tell you for me the proportionality was By hearing and I'm not trying to idolize I only know the story from you and I know but but seeing somebody who represents I am gonna call out the filth in this system and I'm gonna do it against the most powerful and Then he's off
01:14:04
Speaker
But for me, knowing that that was behind it, I walk up and want a statue. And it's a strange statue time. I want a statue. You know, and that's what I want. That's what I want to say. I want to see something that's there. And he has a memorial and that's very meaningful and they're beautiful objects. And it was a different experience and it was probably even better. But I was just telling you, my initial reaction was being like,
01:14:30
Speaker
There was something bigger that was represented here and this is humble and this is small, but sometimes small is for a very particular reason and it's complicated. So the really interesting thing about that statue is that it was created by inmates.
01:14:50
Speaker
And I guess we should describe it. It's really kind of like a plaque that almost looks like a podium. And it has this really beautiful metalwork surrounding it that is almost an inlay and a sculpture at the same time of vines going up the side of it. And so it looks like it's almost
01:15:13
Speaker
kind of sprung from the Earth. So it is very kind of organic and very much a part of the landscape at the same time.
01:15:29
Speaker
And so it's very beautiful. And yes, I stood there with Pat and Kevin, and they like to go there and share a beer with Mike. And so if you go there and there's a can of beer, don't take it as a sign of disrespect. It's probably something that's been left by one of his brothers.
01:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, it's like going to Kerouac's grave in Lowell, Massachusetts or Morrison's grave in Paris. Oh my gosh. Yeah. My, uh, my, my brother lives over in Lowell, Massachusetts. Last time I was visiting him, I was able to go by the Kerouac stuff, uh, uh, which, which I did, which I adore. So, um, yeah, that was a thank you. And it was, it was nice to share with you because, uh, I think, um,
01:16:16
Speaker
Sensitivity to stories as a listener, sensitivity to injustice, things going wrong, not getting rid of being able to get rid of the pissed offness.
01:16:26
Speaker
Residue, you know after things is a real it was a real, you know experience and So I found it, you know, very very powerful in that and The quest for justice within that show listeners from unexpected directions and support and people standing up it's very inspirational as difficult it is to
01:16:50
Speaker
to move through. It's not inspirational about the justice system per se, inspirational about people fighting.
Philosophical Reflection on Creation
01:16:58
Speaker
Yeah, I was really humbled by the people who were willing to speak with me for that because they did so knowing that it would create
01:17:10
Speaker
serious levels of discomfort within some of the social circles that they moved in. And it's always very inspiring to me when people in positions of power do the right thing for the sake of doing it.
01:17:25
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. I wanted to ask you the big question cause I don't want to linger in out there too, too, too much, like longer. I never know when to ask it. It's one of those philosophical thud questions, but, um, I know you got it as the, why, uh, Lauren bright Pacheco, is there something rather than nothing? Because there has to be.
01:17:59
Speaker
Yeah. There has to be. Otherwise, what's the point? What's the point?
01:18:08
Speaker
I love creating some things and I know you do. I know the power of, you know, at least I'm connecting to the deeper potential of what art does for us and seeing remapping brains and seeing what hope kind of inspiration because it isn't that there's stuff to get down over.
01:18:34
Speaker
There's it's been in it's been in spades for a while for a lot of folks. It's about Like being inspired by the idea and like even for us predicated in the conversation obviously in my head on Plato and you know, I
01:18:49
Speaker
who, when it comes to art, is one of the greatest writers, I think, in the Western tradition, as far as a storyteller, but also the deep explorations of, you must consider the answer to the question, what is justice? In order to try to arrive at it. And after I had been thinking about more of this question with you,
01:19:15
Speaker
ran into speculative science fiction indigenous science fiction by BL Blanchard called the peacekeepers which presented a theoretical model of a non colonized Americas and one cool thing was Lauren was I didn't have to delve with the questions a lot of questions brought up right then I was able to delve with them speculatively only because the sequence was I was reading about a
01:19:43
Speaker
a future, a written future or a different alt history and was able to engage with the same type of questions. Like there was a restorative justice model, but they're like, this shit isn't like perfect either. Like don't worry about it. You know? Um, so I was able to explore in a speculative way some of the very issues that we're talking about. And I'm like, Oh gosh, I'm glad how that, how that worked out. It made me feel a little bit better.
01:20:08
Speaker
Well, that's a good way because you know what look the truth is that there is no such thing as perfection if it's created by humans for imperfect by nature and so there has to be the struggle of of of striving for Something that's closer to perfection and maybe that is why there's something rather than nothing. There we go. We hit it You get three dart throws
01:20:34
Speaker
He had three darts rose at each round. So we've been talking with Lauren Bright
Where to Find Lauren's Work
01:20:42
Speaker
Pacheco. And Lauren, I wanted to say this a little bit early. I know you're very busy and do a lot of things. We've been talking for a bit, but I very deliberately said I'm not even going to interrupt or allow for.
01:20:54
Speaker
This topic, so I just kept recording. But what I wanted to ask you, Lauren, if you could convey to the listeners, just, you know, your podcast is everywhere, but how, what you'd like to say, how you'd like to tell folks how to encounter the work that you do, the work that you've done.
01:21:15
Speaker
Well, you can find me on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. And I am on Twitter where I'm trying to be a lot less political than I have been in the past. I don't even know what you would do on Twitter. No recommendation.
01:21:38
Speaker
I'm not exactly a huge Twitter presence, but I am there I also am on Instagram, but it's a private account because I got so many threats When I was doing murder in Illinois that I just made it private Not everybody was asking you why is there something rather than nothing in there?
01:21:59
Speaker
Exactly. They were wishing death on myself and my children. It's horrible. It is horrible, but you know what? The good news is, as I said, there is really momentum behind getting Christopher Bond, who is an innocent man. And I can't think of the only thing worse than what happened to his wife and three children is the thought that
01:22:25
Speaker
he could have been wrongfully convicted for their murders, and that's what's happened. And so I'm willing to take some nastiness on social media if it means doing something good for somebody who was so- It's a tough process.
01:22:42
Speaker
I've spent some time as a union organizer in my days and I don't know just on the top 2000 professions I'm not sure where we rank and when it comes to where we're loved by some
01:22:57
Speaker
and not well liked by many others. So it can be difficult when there are threats for what you're representing, what you're trying to do, and those are significant. It's not an easy thing, but I think everybody, when you're fighting or you're upholding a belief system or pursuing something, you know, there's gonna be a couple rocks that come in at 60 degrees from a direction you didn't expect, and it's unsettling, but you're like,
01:23:26
Speaker
I carry through it, but hey, and if anybody gives you any trouble, Lauren, just let me know, all right? I've got a friend. This isn't the LA people calling the NYC people. I'm in rural Oregon.
01:23:47
Speaker
But yeah, of course find the podcasts all the places. And what about the couple of podcasts that people might not be aware of that I mentioned that you get more of a production role? Yeah, I also have been pretty fortunate to work with some really incredibly talented people.
01:24:09
Speaker
Leanne Rimes, the country-western superstar, is also a really wonderful human being with a very interesting interest in spirituality and spreading goodness into the world. And she has a great podcast called Holy Human. And then Steve Greenberg has an incredible podcast
01:24:35
Speaker
called Speed of Sound, which we did a season on, and I'm hoping to get another season. And then I also have a medical mystery podcast called Symptomatic, and that draws attention to the struggles that people face when they are dealing with illness that can take decades to properly diagnose.
01:24:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank, uh, thank you for mentioning those. And, um, you know, I, I think if you do, you know, a lot of high quality things like you've done over time and you have different roles within it too. As one of the things is I've done the show and just.
01:25:15
Speaker
Uh, deeper learning in newer areas because it's a variety show. I don't have deep background in opera. I have a healthy curious interest and I learn as I, as I go, but it's just like trying to, you know, navigate and, and explore, um,
01:25:31
Speaker
Thank you for mentioning all those options. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to talk about my America's Most Wanted Extra Story, which I think I saved for you. I'm like, she's going to be the one that's going to like this. I want to see the clip now.
01:25:49
Speaker
I've been looking at some of the videos that I've done in the past, and I gotta tell you, I ran into one where I played the CEO of Chase Manhattan Bank, Jamie Dimon, and Street Theater in Madison, Wisconsin in 2010. It was a performance that I forgot about, but
01:26:08
Speaker
I liked it. It was quite... I'll send it. It still exists on video. So we'll definitely share that. I mean, I guess it was indication when I was doing the labor stuff back then, I wanted some more showmen type of opportunities than were presently being granted. So that was a lot of fun. But thank you so much for your time. I do really view it as a distinct pleasure to connect with
01:26:37
Speaker
what you create, but I'm just talking about the bigger stuff that I try to on this show and also the enthusiasm for podcasting and hearing how you moved into it and grow and learn about how you want to tell stories within it. It means a lot to hear that and to have this connection with you, Lauren. So I just wanted to let you know that before before you depart.
01:27:04
Speaker
Appreciate that. It's really, really been nice getting to know you better and to having this conversation. Yeah. All right. So everybody check out Lauren's podcast, highly recommended. You don't have to, I'm not obligated listeners to six listens or downloads per episode as might be the case with me.
01:27:26
Speaker
If you want to approach the world in a more understandable for outsiders way of going about the world, you can listen to it once. But thank you so much, Lauren, and hope to talk to you again soon. Absolutely. This is something rather than nothing.