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Elisabeth Eaves
656 Plays2 months ago
Elisabeth Eaves is the author of the debut novel The Outlier as well as two critically acclaimed non-fiction books, Wanderlust: A love affair with five continents and Bare: the naked truth about stripping. Her work has been anthologized in four books of essays, and she's won three Lowell Thomas awards from the Society of American Travel Writers. Her journalism has appeared in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, Foreign Policy, Marie Claire, Slate, and many other publications, and she was a staff writer and editor at Forbes and the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.
Before turning full time to writing, Elisabeth worked as a waitress, a bartender, a deck hand, a landscaper, an office temp, and a peep show girl. She earned a bachelor’s degree from the University of Washington and a master’s degree from Columbia University’s School of International and Public Affairs.
Born and raised in Vancouver, Elisabeth lived in Cairo, London, and Paris, spent 10 years in New York City, and now resides in Seattle.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:17
Speaker
Hey everybody, this is Ken Vellante with the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast. Super excited to have Elizabeth Eves. And um Elizabeth, I'm gonna drop it right off to you at the beginning. and You got a novel, ah The Outliers, which I've just listened to on Audible. I loved it. it's i love it was it was It was a thrilling, exciting read. It was so smart.
00:00:43
Speaker
And I just thoroughly enjoyed the experience, but I just wanted to, you know, how's it going with your with your new book of of of fiction? Yeah.
Book Tour Experiences
00:00:53
Speaker
Well, thank you for having me on. i'm I'm very excited to chat with you. I think this is going to be fun.
00:01:08
Speaker
all those authors out there, they know, but that can be busy and like high anxiety time. So you know I went through all that. I had a bunch of events and still still doing scattered events, although it's a little slower now. And in the last few weeks, I've been able to get back to writing, which of course is what I love to actually do.
00:01:33
Speaker
Although, I mean, I find events fun. Like, I like, you know, I like doing the Q and&A and interacting with the audience. um It's like the organization of it, though, is is kind of high intensity sometimes. So yeah, it's been going great. A little, little quieting down a little in ah in a nice way, but it was it was a fun month.
00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah, one of the things I like about um ah doing the show is I end up coming in contact and reading different type of things. And um I was i was ah was surprised in just reading your book um about like the range of things that it covered. I mean, we had the science in there talking about coral reefs.
00:02:13
Speaker
It was mystery related to that, um highly intelligent, complicated um ah characters. So I was like, whoa, this is this is this is all in here. um about like So where does this where where does this ah come from for you? like This kind of wide ranging, even international aspects of like ah of ah of a thrilling story. So where did it all come from?
Themes and Character Development
00:02:42
Speaker
Yeah, so for me, I think novels come together in layers. So i might know you know I might have a character idea, but not a setting, or I might have a theme idea, but not a character. So on kind of a structural level, that's how it comes together. um As far as the topics and themes, I honestly, I think I just kind of put in a whole lot of things I was fascinated with or that I had some experience with. So one of the themes, as you know, is um essentially brain science. Like we have a character who is technically a psychopath, but she's kind of a pro-social psychopath. Like she is not, um you know, like the killer of of of pop culture fame.
00:03:32
Speaker
She is someone who's very aware of her condition and has many of the traits of psychopathy, like kind of the, you know, lack of empathy and a calculating quality. um But she's also very successful and, you know, she's become like a very controlled person to kind of like,
00:03:51
Speaker
um stay disciplined and like keep those keep those things in check. So there's there's her grappling with her psychopathy and the people around her, and then there's um you know there's kind of an Alzheimer's strain. So there's that whole kind of you know, neurological, how to how do people work, what makes them kind of who they are, as far as the brain goes side
Inspiration from Neuropsychology
00:04:17
Speaker
of it. And I just, I mean, I came, that that was from real world ah things that I read about or heard about. Like there actually is, there was a memoir um by a guy named James, I think James Denton, called The Psychopath Inside.
00:04:38
Speaker
And he was a neuroscientist who one day was looking at a bunch of brain scans and um of criminals, ah you know terrible criminals, rapists and murderers. And the ah the brain of people who are psychopaths, it it looks a little different, like there are parts of it that are you know like you know shrunken amygdala is one of the things and like they they fire a little differently. So he has this stack of brain scans and then somehow he was also doing like some personal genealogical project. um And he came across this one like criminal brain scan and you you know he was like, you know which one is this? Which subject is this? Well, long story short, it turned out to be his own.
00:05:24
Speaker
And, but it looked like, like all the psychopath brains. And so that set him off on this journey of like, wait a minute, like, right hot you know, who, who am I? And so that, that's a real thing. You know, he, he gave Ted talks and everything on it, but so I kind of brought that into my character. That was one of the, one of the inspirations. And then as far as, sorry, did you want to go ahead? No, no, no, no, go
Technological Themes and Their Impacts
00:05:50
Speaker
ahead. Good.
00:05:51
Speaker
So as far as some of the other stuff, um like I've always been interested in marine biology, and I was a travel writer for a long time, and then I was a science writer. So over the course of that, I'd have a little bit of exposure to that world. like I and did a journalism fellowship at an oceanographic institute at one point. So um I was able to bring that in, and then To me, kind of one of the overarching themes of the book is is um the unintended consequences of new technologies, of shiny new technologies. so in In the case of this book, there's there's someone who's trying to commercialize nuclear fusion.
00:06:36
Speaker
you know which Nobody's ever gotten there in real life, but some projects have gotten very close. and so Fusion is essentially, like if it worked, it would be this like amazing you know low-cost, no-carbon energy source.
00:06:51
Speaker
so um The theme I was interested in is like every time we come up with these things like it could be used for great things like AI could advance medicine and humanitarian and rescue and then it could be you know really bad like it could you know can be used to make weapons or or all kinds of terrible accidental things going on so I was very interested in that theme and that kind of came in to like some of the more scientific angles in the book so Yeah, I found
Philosophical Exploration of Psychopathy
00:07:22
Speaker
it fascinating. um you know I think a lot of times ah when you when you read ah a book or a novel or maybe even ah traditionally, yeah end up ah you know observing a character a lot of times you end up observing a character and kind of creating your own theories of like, what type of person is this? And I found it fascinating to place
00:07:40
Speaker
um the character within this wondering about herself like in comparison. in you know When I talk about philosophical questions, it's like, you know what are you born with? like ah Talking about the person who saw the brain scan and be like, wait wait a second, like how did I end up where I am? like the These are similar, they're the same. in It's such a fascinating question, I think, like within ah philosophy, who you are to be,
00:08:08
Speaker
What do you do like if if you have these um aspects or characteristics maybe that aren't pro-social? Do you acculturate yourself? um in I was thinking when I was reading it too about some of the things in research it shows about CEOs or the brains of CEOs and how they're a particular way and things around empathy or execution. um and So I thought it was it was such a unique aspect to have that rate up front and be like, oh, you know ah and and to learn that history. um in Of course, to talk about the science of it all, right if somebody has this disposition and what did they end up doing or what are the factors, you know nature nature nurture.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah, the age old question. I was also very fascinated with psychopath or potentially psychopath CEOs from my days as a business journalist. You know, I worked at Forbes magazine and we were always putting like, you know, Elizabeth Holmes was on the cover and um Adam Newman, that was that's the we work guy and like kind of all these people who've maybe had brushes with the law later, like, you know, they were these really celebrated entrepreneurs at one point.
00:09:27
Speaker
um But, you know, there's a reason psychopaths exist. And, you know, they may actually have a lot of strengths. Like if you want to, you know, lead a charge into battle and risk your life, like you need someone who can be very impulsive or daring or unafraid or, um you know, if you need a leader who's got to make hard decisions, like so or a surgeon who, you know, if you got to operate on somebody's brain, like you might be better off without too much empathy because that that could really throw you off. So I think
00:10:03
Speaker
you know There's a reason that brains like this exist. Yeah, I think that's i think that's absolutely absolutely fascinating.
Journey to Becoming a Novelist
00:10:11
Speaker
um and I enjoyed the role of of water in oceans within the book. I'm from Rhode Island, the ocean state. I adore the ocean. and um One of the sensitivities I have or like when I feel aspects of climate change or what's happening with the warming, I'm really sensitive to oceans and my connection to that and in and feeling of that. and um It was a great a great part of the book of kind of like ah understanding even towards the nuclear fusion of water being used towards those ends. and um
00:10:49
Speaker
things like destruction, piracy, a righteous groups, trying to fight against um destruction. And I found it so thrilling. I wanted to ask you a question about you as ah as a creator, as an artist, as a writer. I asked folks, was there a moment when you said,
00:11:13
Speaker
Hey, I'm an artist, or you embody that, or a writer, or how you would you like to frame that? So I always loved reading and writing and language and history and all those things. And then when I wanted to you know have a career, I was like, OK, well, what what can pay me to write? Because I love writing. And I became a journalist.
00:11:42
Speaker
um which is a field that, you know, I love and respect still. I don't do much journalism anymore because fiction is kind of all consuming. And journalism is also kind of a trade, you know, kind of you're kind of doing tradecraft. And from there I moved into writing nonfiction books. And I think that was the point where I felt like now I really get to create something of my own. Like I i get to make something that that is you know of my vision. um And then there was also kind of a piece of external validation because when I i started writing my first book and I got my first book contract and like the non-fiction book, you get a
00:12:31
Speaker
You kind of pitch it on a proposal and then like the publisher gives you an advance and then you got to go write it. um And I remember at that point, and I was i still pretty young and I had, which, you know, it gave me enough money that like I could quit the job I was doing at that time. um And I realized, you know, like filling out a passport form, like what is your occupation? i was like Ooh, I'm a writer. like yeah I can say I'm a writer officially now. That is literally what I am doing. It's both my my um my passion and also my livelihood at this point. So that was, you know, that is sort of external, but it was also like this big piece of like, yes, I can say this is what I do now. So that that meant something to me.
00:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Empowered Female Protagonists
00:13:21
Speaker
Well, good ah good on you. I and i think there's ah you know no one um ah i've i've read the novel. I'm familiar with your nonfiction, but I think um what was noticeable in what I read is the the prominence of the and female protagonist in in a complicated, like human. you know like I think that's really important to point out. um That ah empowered human trying to figure things ah trying to figure things out and there's great kind of.
00:13:53
Speaker
autonomy and power within that that that that comes true and um I really enjoyed that um, I wanted to ask you ah another question is you know, like ah The art question and I think moving from nonfiction to fiction and you you know you creating this creating this story in in fiction and talking about art You know ah Your novel's a piece of art ah to me, ah both an enjoyment and in and all of it. What is art? Do you do you ponder you know you grapple with that question and in creativity? What is art?
Defining Art and Its Communal Experience
00:14:37
Speaker
Yeah, I've thought about that a lot, especially recently, I think.
00:14:43
Speaker
So art is an effort to communicate with others, with with our fellow human beings, but it's an effort to communicate by non-literal means. um You know, I make art because I want to reach people so that they are moved or touched by what I've made. And it's a way to take, you know, life can feel like a solo experience and art is a way to take it and make it feel like a communal experience. um But it's giving people a sensation or a motion that it can't come from you can't just you know add up all the words in my book and their literal dictionary definitions. It's it's something that comes through between the lines. And
00:15:33
Speaker
um you know is is more than the sum of its parts. And that's the same with music. you know We all respond more or less to different art forms. If you if you love visual art, there's something unquantifiable there that's not just about the paint strokes. If you love music what or a piece of music, it's not just because you're you know breaking down the notes or the beats, it's because it's giving you a feeling that you can't get from just the literal world. So as a creator, that's what what art is to me. And i I would also add, it's like it comes from a need to externalize something inside of oneself. Like I have all this in here and I need to get it out of me. And like, hopefully you will respond to that.
00:16:21
Speaker
What's your experience with the the book of fiction? You talked about you know you know things with the tour and appearances and things like that. What's it been like for you to create a work of fiction and then your baby's out in the world and you don't get the controller anymore? and What's that been like as far as the reciprocity or or feedback with the reading audience?
00:16:45
Speaker
Well, you know, it's exciting when people relate to it or they tell you, like, I love that subject or, i you know, like, this meant something to me. Like, that's that's a great moment. And that's what's, you know, one thing that's fun about getting out of your, you know, solo world and of writing and like getting out and meeting people.
00:17:04
Speaker
um So that part's really fun. um Sorry, what was the rest of the question? Well, it's just, ah as you're getting in feedback from others, right, because like, I think when we create something, like, we know what it is, and when your ideas are like, when you read it, I know this is what you're going to take away, and then somebody says completely something different, you know? no ah Yeah, I remember. So we have to, you know, as a creator, like, once it's out of my hands, like,
00:17:34
Speaker
It's out there and it's gonna mean different things to different people. And I have no more control over that. And um people might take... you know, there might be one little part that I haven't even thought about since I wrote it down two years ago. And they're like, that that's what I really loved. Or, you know, people, you know, nobody loved, no work, nothing is for everyone. But hopefully, everything is for someone if you've made something good. So you just kind of have to make peace with the fact that it's
00:18:08
Speaker
it's done as far as you're concerned. And now it's going to be part of somebody else's life and they're going to like, um, have their own interpretation. Yeah. Yeah.
Setting in the Pacific Northwest
00:18:19
Speaker
I, uh, enjoyed the, you know, part the part of the setting in the a Pacific Northwest where where where I live and and I know you're in the in the in the region. And I'm from the East Coast originally. And one of the one of the fun parts about it was, um you know I had this experience of like listening to a book in some of the place locations and I was like, oh, they're talking about my home. And I hadn't felt i hadn't like felt like that. So it was like really really exciting for me. I'd been out here long enough where I was like, oh, I know right where that is and had this kind of like,
00:18:52
Speaker
oh local local ah field ah feel to it um so as set in the primary at the beginning in Washington state. yeah Yeah. Yeah. So we have the big city. Yeah. You're an or Oregonian now, right? Yeah. Yes. Yes. I think, I think they, I think they'll allow me 13 years. And I think it's a lifetime or two generations in Oregon, but I'm 13 years in. Yeah. Well, my mom was from Oregon, so maybe they would count me even though I have cousins in Oregon too. So maybe half an Oregonian. Um, yeah, we have, so the beginning of the novel, we have the big city, Seattle kind of.
00:19:30
Speaker
very shiny like biotech community. And then, of course, we have we have a couple scenes in the San Juan Islands, which you probably know about since you've been here, like a kind of harrowing sailing trip. And then um the Institute where our protagonist grew up is like kind of just over the mountains over in Kashmir, Washington, which is maybe you've also heard of since you've been here. yeah I mean, you've heard of the Cascades, I know that. yeah yeah You go over the mountains and then there's like a bunch more of our states over there. I couldn't, i couldn't you know, as a typical person moving out here, I was like, oh, I know what Oregon looks like. And then I was like, two thirds of the state, the desert out there? is yeah it's it's it's It's really fascinating ah geography. Anyways, I love the setting. in um
00:20:21
Speaker
ah the interactions there.
Influence of Travel on Creativity
00:20:25
Speaker
I wanted to ask you about ah travel. Travel is prominent. i mean You have a book about ah travel. ah You've written about ah travel. and um I enjoy traveling, but I wanted to ask you, like as a as as ah creator, has is that impacted You as you know traveling and be in different areas. How has that had an impact on? How you create or what you're able to create? Oh, yeah massive impact. So my second book which is called wanderlust and Came out about a decade ago um Is a travel memoir and of course people like well where where where is it a memoir about so it's not just one place it goes on all over the world from you know the south pacific to the middle east to europe and so forth and it's really a book about kind of obsessive travel and like the desire to travel i mean it's called wonderless the desire to stay on the road and um that was you know ah a driving force in my life for many years probably from i don't know college age you know
00:21:38
Speaker
into my 30s. So it was really like defining and and passionate for me. And Wanderlust is kind of an effort to understand that. like why you know There's other people like that out in the world. and um you know, why why are we like that? Like what's so important about moving into different cultures or, you know, going to things or coming from things. So yeah, so that that force in my life completely drove that second book and and made that second book. So that's like a very direct, I mean, when you create a memoir, you are creating something, but it's also like, you know, very directly
00:22:27
Speaker
And literally, you know it is your life. So um thats that's what that book came out of. and you know And I still love traveling, but I do it differently now. like it's just It's a little more chill. like all I mean, I am kind of always merging it with with my life. like um you know I'll go on a trip, but it's kind of a research trip, or you know maybe I'm freelancing, or um maybe i you know my husband and I have been going to Oaxaca, which is um in southern Mexico every winter now for a little while. and We kind of just take our little you know turtle backpacks with us and work there. um So it's it's part of my life now, but in a different way, I would say.
00:23:13
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's such a powerful thing. I ah i was a junior junior in high school and like my family my family didn't travel. like I had never been on a plane or anything. and um I ended up going on a ah class trip, I get a senior in high school, first time overseas and everything like that, and I never knew why I did it. like I'm like, how do you end up? And so i I've always thought about this, like whatever that is inside of me that was so prominent where I really didn't even have the means. you know I had to scrape together, pull everything out, and then went to Spain. It was such a pivotal type of thing.
00:23:53
Speaker
I didn't even understand it at the time or that that that drive to to see something there. I understand it a lot better now. and um I find even in this region in in in Oregon, one of the great pleasures in my life is that this whole area, I drive around a lot. I travel a lot and work and otherwise. and There's such incredible beauty. like I know now that I'll never quite get used to that or the the adventure of taking off or driving through um California. I think about it a lot because out on the East Coast, there's this like fantasy about what the West Coast is, you know and I've never really dropped it.
00:24:36
Speaker
and like yeah I don't know if it's fan fantasy reality, but I've never dropped it because I Enjoy it in that in that way. Like I know I'm in California I know I'm on that coast road and I'm like this is cool that energy is never left So I've I look at travel and go into different places such a such a stimulation and ah My brain like in intelligence like it just I feel smarter and More alive. I think I said smata. That would have been my yeah, very rhode island a lot of smart Yeah, I don't do that often on the podcast. Although somebody's listening to say he's always dropping at that. Yeah, it's a lot smarter after i'm, you know driving um, but I I just really get a thrill out of that and I think in um, uh in in seeing your work and uh in in the fiction I love to
00:25:30
Speaker
to do that. I listened to the ah audiobook. um what should I and listen to a lot of audiobooks. I read a lot of books. My goodness, everybody. It was a lovely performance. oh yeah I'm so glad yeah i'm i'm glad to hear you love the audiobook because I love the actors. you know They had four voice actors and I think they did a terrific job. and i I felt pretty lucky that my publisher decided to do a multi-person cast. Absolutely. Yeah. You don't always get that. um No. and I thought that was really neat. and Then also, I got to be a little bit involved. I got to listen to the audition tapes and kind of say, oh you know this sounds like Kate and this sounds like Luciana. Yeah. so um so That was fun for me and and I think they did a great job.
00:26:23
Speaker
I ah don't don't mean to overlook that and we'll put the the the the talent in in the show notes. I just wanted to convey that to you because you know it's a different experience reading and listening, but the first I actually had that when I first started listening. I'm like, oh my gosh, the voice switch, which doesn't.
00:26:40
Speaker
happen all the time. yeah And sometimes people do Marvelous. I mean, I think the person does Harry Potter does 800 voices. And like, yeah, that's a ball incredibly, they get those classically trained British actors. Oh, my God. Some of them like in certain detective novels. And boy, they just do every single accent. And but no some of them are very, very good. That's true.
00:27:02
Speaker
Yeah. what ah what a So everybody, yeah you know if you enjoy the book, obviously you get a copy of it, but um I listened to the audio book and it was it's worth it's really worth the performance. and ah Not knowing what you think those folks sounded with, like in your head, it's interesting that you had a role of being like, oh, I think that's yeah him or her, but ah great kudos ah kudos to um ah those voice performers on the audio book outlier. but um I wanted to ask you the big question. I never forget to ask the big question, but um ah the question I asked in the title of the show is, why is there something rather than nothing?
Intersection of Science and Religion
00:27:50
Speaker
I think a lot of people define science and religion as being very much opposite to one another. you know one is One is facts and proof and one is faith.
00:28:01
Speaker
Um, but I don't think they're actually mutually exclusive. You know, Einstein famously said like, I want to know God's thoughts. Like that's just the ultimate fusion of a scientific thinker and, and, and God. Um, so here's how that relates to your question. So there's a very literal answer to your question, which is like, well, there was a big bang and you know, there was, there was a one single point and then it exploded and we live in an expanding universe and.
00:28:31
Speaker
That's the big bang theory and it's you know, I think it's a pretty good theory. It's the best one we have and um You know, maybe Scientists will be able to empirically prove it one day but then we'll still have the question of well, why did that happen and that's where face comes back in or or you can call it faith or you can call just like there are unknowns like we don't we can't explain and everything or understand everything so you know what created that point that blew up and and and created our universe so so you kind of
00:29:13
Speaker
If you want to answer the question, why is there something rather than nothing, like even if you can, you know, explain and explain and explain with, ah you know, this like scientific bent that I have, um you still have to just believe maybe, maybe in a creator, you know, as in like traditional monotheistic religions or most religions. um Yeah, so that's how I would answer that question.
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, I like I like your discussion science. I mean I think it's so fascinating um philosophy science ah religion in and around this question uh as well is like and I I in the show I I connected to like this um Just this idea of creativity or this spark or why did something why does something uh?
00:30:07
Speaker
Began and I love it with creators because it's always it's always a bit. It's always a bit ah different and in sometimes folks seem like Whether they create something it's something that they have to create like it has to manifest or folks maybe you feel like and in the creation mode that There was no thing before and and look I did these type of things or you arranged the words in this particular way to to create something. Talking about fiction all right so you write a fiction, you write the fiction book, love it, ah you have that out there. did For you as a creator, did the does that now place you in a position of like what's the next book? Are you thinking still the fiction? like What did it do to expand out your head of now that you got that one out in the world? yeah
00:31:00
Speaker
I would like to say that maybe I have the hang of fiction now. so um Knock on wood. i you know I transitioned from nonfiction to fiction, and that was like a long, slow, kind of relearning process.
00:31:15
Speaker
um And I am creating something new now. In fact, I have been for a while because publishing like traditional publishing is actually very slow, like incredibly slow. So this novel was locked down. like The text was locked down probably in, I think, December. And then it came out in August. So I've been working on another novel, um which is I mean, for me, that first creation phase is very exciting and it's very much my my happy place, the way I'm in the flow, you know, the place where I'm like in the flow and content is when I am creating. So, um yeah, I've kind of written, I'm kind of like on a second draft-ish, it's hard to count drafts because like, you know, which,
00:32:11
Speaker
You know, if you sort of write three quarters and then you go back to the beginning or you're on a second graph. But um yeah, so I'm writing a completely different story. It's not a sequel. and ah with my book coming out I kind of have to toggle a little bit like I have to think about the outlier and then I also have to like switch back and think about the new novel. um Yeah so this is a this is a ah ah good time that you know I've been able to get back to it now in the first in the last few weeks because there was like seven weeks in the summer that I didn't write anything or I didn't write any fiction.
00:32:44
Speaker
So I'm getting back to that. I'm showing it. and But I also feel a sense of urgency. But I think that's sort of like a cosmic urgency. like um i you know If I want to make or create all this work in my lifetime, I got to like i got to keep on that. I got to like keep putting things out into the world more more than like a ah you know practical level urgency.
00:33:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And that's that can be such a ah big drive. I being a book lover myself ah and, you know, getting ah aging a little bit more, getting a bit older and like having these books around and being like.
00:33:29
Speaker
I have in my head with books, I'm like, I don't want to die before I read that one. That's why I have it. I like, you know, I'm going to read The Three Musketeers or something. I haven't read that. I was supposed to read, that you know, like that type of thing. And when you say urgency, I think about that. ah I think about that a lot, you know, and and and maybe as a creator, too, of like.
00:33:49
Speaker
you know You had that book in you, but then you're like, oh my gosh, I did that. And now it's your first book. And and it's it's it's interesting to hear you know how you how your brain goes to the
Transition from Nonfiction to Fiction
00:34:01
Speaker
the next one. But um how big of a change how big of a change was it creatively going from nonfiction to fiction?
00:34:11
Speaker
bigger than I thought it would be. yeah So I was a journalist and then I wrote a couple memoirs or nonfiction. and i So the first novel I started after Wanderlust came out, my me my travel memoir,
00:34:28
Speaker
i I thought I wanted it to be in the first person like all in the first person because I thought well that'll create a sense of intimacy like you know you will feel like you're you're with this narrator and going through things with her and um So I wrote that novel, that never never sold it. um But in retrospect, it's really hard to do that in a work of fiction, because if you're entirely in the first person, the audience can't know anything that the protagonist doesn't know. Which like if you want to have a plot, and like I like a plot,
00:35:08
Speaker
um That's very tricky. It's very tricky. It's very hard to create any sense of mystery when you can only know what the main character knows. So when I started the outlier, I was much more open to, oh, I'm going to have a few voices in this.
00:35:27
Speaker
So that was one thing I learned. um Going from journalism to fiction is a big change, like depending on what kind of journalism you're writing. But like a lot of it, if it's like news, you know breaking news or daily news, like there's a certain style to that. It's very fact-based, choppy. like A story can be like fact fact, fact, fact, quote.
00:35:53
Speaker
fact, fact, fact, that quote, and you're trying to like sort of show you have all the evidence and all the facts and just like get that out there in the most efficient way possible. And when you're writing fiction, you can't do that at all. like yeah It'll just feel like an info dump onto the reader if you're like, here, look at, here's all the facts that I know about this, right? So you have to be much more judicious and like just let the language flow and just like choose the right detail here and there, but you're not trying to you know trying to give evidence to the reader that like I know a lot of things.
00:36:29
Speaker
um But there's some things that transition really well. like I think journalists have a good ear for dialogue, and so you can bring that over to fiction and hopefully write good dialogue.
00:36:41
Speaker
um know Journalists, I think, have a good sense of like detail for setting, so that's something that transitions over well. so there's there's pros and cons of of making the switch in terms of like what you have to relearn, but then also what still applies. um So like I know you you write in communications in your your day job, right? like yeah ah Well, yeah. yeah ah union Union guy. yep Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like doing you know any kind of
00:37:15
Speaker
um like day job communications writing, it's it's sort of like word calisthenics, like you become very good at like just, you know, using words, I guess, for for lack of any other, um you know, you know what you're doing, you know, you know how to, you know, evoke or communicate and and obviously that all is hugely helpful for creative writing.
00:37:43
Speaker
I love writing grievances. I love writing grievances. I do it. I do it all the time. No, I on that point, too, you know, sometimes I do a lot of things creatively. I want to write more than I do. And then sometimes I forget that, like, I remind myself, give myself some space and say, shit, Ken.
00:38:04
Speaker
You're writing all the time in every day. this it is And so um I think that was a realization for me, though, that that there is this um deep craft that I've developed in a particular way. So it's just reminding myself but it's not like I'm not doing ah i'm doing it. I'm doing it there in in a way creatively and deep thought. So um just residing in that a bit more. I wanted to ask you one more ah writing question.
Creative Inspiration from Other Authors
00:38:31
Speaker
um and maybe it's a a little bit more typical, but you know, you're writing ah and if you're getting stuck in an area or you're getting caught up, did you call back to maybe ah other other writers, other creators to be like, maybe how they solve this problem, maybe I can solve it that way. Did you engage in that type of process?
00:38:53
Speaker
Yes, definitely. So when I was figuring out the different characters and the kinds of voices I wanted to have in The Outlier, I remembered a book that I loved. It's a novel for me.
00:39:11
Speaker
five, 10 years ago called Euphoria, very good novel, um very loosely, loosely based on on an episode in the life of Margaret Mead, if that interests you. um But I just, I happened to remember that like, wait, she did a thing where she had three different voices and one was in the first person and two were in the ah close third person. It's like, well, if she can do that, I can do that. yeah So um that was something I took. It's kind of it's kind of like if you see someone stick a back flip, then I think, well, maybe I can stick a back flip. In the new novel I'm writing, I want to have
00:39:54
Speaker
a play within the novel like there's a character who's a playwright and she's you know trying to trying to get her play out there and I've been trying to figure out like well how do you how do you do that and like do I just want to talk ah about it or do I want to have like lines of script in there there's kind of all these sort of you know narrative and logistical questions so I have in mind a couple things people have recommended that are um you know, novels with plays or something else embedded within them. So I'm going to go read those and like say, like, how did they do it? And yeah, yeah. So there's yeah, stuff like that. No, I love that. I yeah yeah I adore books and um and really on your book, too, you stuck the back flip. Folks, seriously, it's it's I get a thrill out of um
00:40:54
Speaker
encounter, like I said, encountering different types of work and in in fiction. And it's ah it' it's a hell of a book and it's I'm really happy to know ah that you're continuing along along the path in in in writing and writing fiction. um Can you tell the listeners, you know, where to find where to find your works and you know if there's any ah appearances, anything. We're talking here in September 2024, but just like how do we encounter ah your art, your books? Sure.
00:41:28
Speaker
So you can find the outlier at any of your favorite online retailers that a lot of bricks and mortar retailers um online. I like and like Bookshop dot.org online, um but ah you know any any any of the usual places. And my website is pretty easy if you if you know my name. um It's ElizabethEves.com and that's Elizabeth with an S and that's Eves like in the word eavesdrop. So ElizabethEves.com and then there the you'll also find links to The Outlier but also to my previous books Bear and Wanderlust and stuff about them. I do um i do a newsletter so
00:42:18
Speaker
It was monthly and now it's sort of quarterly because anyway, but I talk about um basically travel and writing like either together or apart so um sometimes travel writing and um As far as social media, I basically use Instagram and not the other ones and that's just at Elizabeth Eve, so I'll I'll have updates and you know Yeah. Places I've been and what I'm up to and stuff on there. Congratulations. ah Congratulations on on on the book. and
00:42:54
Speaker
and And folks too, um i gotta ah I tell folks about this, Elizabeth, to get a bookstore a couple blocks away. I'm in Albany, Oregon, browser's bookstore, and all my the guests that I have on, Abe, our bookshop owner, gets those books over there. So browser's bookstore in Albany.
00:43:14
Speaker
I will have Elizabeth's book as well as as other guests, but um I wanted to thank you for you know for your art, Elizabeth, and being able to chat with you. I have an excitement because there are additional questions that are popping up in my and my head. and i really um I really, uh, enjoyed, uh, the intelligence of the book and it shows like an intelligent work of fiction doesn't have to be, it can be like exciting, thrilling, sexy, like complicated. It can be like adventurous. It can be all those things. And, um, you got that in there in your book. So thank you for the outlier and in all the work you do.
00:43:57
Speaker
Well, thank you. Thank you for those kind words. I really appreciate it. And um thanks for your great podcast. I mean, I love the way you kind of open up philosophical ideas to you know in a very accessible way, I think, for for anybody to listen to or understand. So it's been very cool, very fun conversation. so Thank you. Thank you, Elizabeth. Everybody, again, I've recommended it two, three times. Elizabeth Eve's work. And if you want to want a great fall read, you know, if you're sitting chilly inside or whatever, you can blanket grab the outlier or my goodness, like I said, listen to it. What a great performance and a shout out to the team that put together
00:44:41
Speaker
the audiobook. Thanks again, Elizabeth, and I look forward to to to reading more of your words. Cool, thank you.
00:45:02
Speaker
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00:45:12
Speaker
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00:45:33
Speaker
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Speaker
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