Transcript
Speaker: And I feel like that is the example that the Buddha gave because what great thing happened after that enlightenment? Nothing. He went on and taught this method and the whole focus of the teaching is the method, not the result, because the result might be different for different people. But I think what could happen if you're practicing the method is you experience a greater amount of inner peace that you wouldn't have experienced if you weren't practicing the method because you'd be
Speaker: going around habitually reactive to everything and running after the thing you want and running from the thing that you don't want. Welcome to Stoa Conversations. In this podcast, Michael Trombley and I discuss the theory and practice of stoicism. Each week, we'll share two conversations. One between the two of us, and another will be an in -depth conversation with an expert. In this conversation, I speak with Noah Resheta about Buddhism.
Speaker: Noah is the author of No Nonsense Buddhism for Beginners, host of the Secular Buddhism Podcast, as well as a paragliding instructor.
Speaker: So we have a skilled combination of theory and practice, always good to see. We talk about the key tenets of Buddhism, really what the Buddhist way of life amounts to, meditation, and we even talk about whether some people should not be Buddhist.
Speaker: Noah has a clear and focused approach towards Buddhism. I especially enjoyed listening to no -nonsense Buddhism after being referred to it by a stoa conversations listener. Thanks, Casey. So of course, just a reminder if any of you others have referrals for guests, don't hesitate to reach out. And without any further words of intro, here is our conversation.
Speaker: Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Noah Rosheta. Noah is a Buddhist teacher, lay minister, and author, as well as the host of the podcast, Secular Buddhism. Thanks for joining. Thank you for having me.
Speaker: Well, I'm looking forward to learning more about Buddhism, but let's start with this broad question. What's your story? So I encountered Buddhism. Well, early on in high school, I had, you know, encountered various philosophies and religions just through high school studies. But it wasn't until later in life, as an adult, I had encountered
Speaker: roughly 2010, it's kind of an existential crisis, if we want to call it that. I was looking for something to help with that sense of angst and anxiety that I was feeling. And I'd always heard about meditation, but I didn't feel like I wanted to try to jump into it unless I understood the reasoning behind it, where it came from, why does it work? How does it work?
Speaker: And it was through that process of studying what meditation is that led me down the path of discovering Buddhist philosophy. And the more I studied it, the more it made sense to me as an applied way of living. And I kind of went down the rabbit hole.
Speaker: And after a few years, that led to doing a ministry program and starting a podcast, trying to share with people what I was learning about Buddhism. And that's what eventually gets me to where we are today. So yeah, that's kind of the, in a nutshell, that's the path I took.
Speaker: Got it. So how does one become more Buddhist? Is there a sort of standard path to move from say interest in Buddhism, interested in the life philosophy to becoming a minister, a lay minister or something of that sort?
Speaker: Yeah, so in one way, Buddhism can be looked at as something that you just practice in the same way that you would practice yoga. And in that sense, there's really nothing to become. You're either practicing it or you're not. But to formalize the process of becoming a Buddhist, if we want to think of it in formal terms, there is a process that you can undertake. It's called taking refuge.
Speaker: And usually it's in a formal setting, it's done with someone who's a Buddhist teacher or minister. And you kind of just say, I take refuge in the Buddha, in the Sangha and the Dharma. And that's kind of a way to formalize it. And then it can be as casual as that, just saying it, or it can be a formal process where, like in my case,
Speaker: there was a ceremony, it was in a Japanese tradition. So there was a ceremony where you're washed your hands in the water and it was kind of an interesting, fun thing to do. Very good. So one sort of fundamental question for so many religions, philosophies is why do we suffer? And how do you go about thinking about that question from the Buddhist perspective?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's one of the core questions of humanity, the human condition. First, I'll just speak real quick to the idea of questions and answers in general, because the one thing that's different with Buddhism as a worldview compared to some of the other worldviews
Speaker: A lot of worldviews seek to answer those existential questions where Buddhism doesn't necessarily seek to answer the question. It doesn't have an answer to the big existential questions. It shines the spotlight on the question itself. Who is the person asking? Why does this need to know exist? Why does this question matter to me?
Speaker: The highlight goes to the question and the idea is that by understanding the question, the source of the question, maybe the relevance of the question will go away. So using suffering as the example, we have the foundations of what Buddhism teaches are centered around the topic of suffering.
Speaker: And you can think of it almost like a diagnosis going to a doctor. If there's a malady of some sort, you have a four step process. One is figuring out what is it that's wrong? What is the malady that you have? Two, what's causing it? Three, here's the malady.
Speaker: prescription of what we can do. And then four, you follow the prescription. And that's how you work with a medical issue. So in Buddhism, with suffering, those four steps are what we call the four noble truths. And the first is the
Speaker: the understanding that suffering is a universal condition. To be alive is to suffer, whether that's sickness, old age, death, loss of possessions, loved ones. We're all going to encounter suffering at some point in life.
Speaker: And the essence of that first truth or that first teaching is the understanding that there's nothing wrong with suffering. I think sometimes we go through life thinking, man, life is hard. I must be doing it wrong. And this is coming along saying, hey, it's normal. You're going to experience these things. That's just a part of the human condition. So that's the first one. The second one gets at the heart of what's causing this.
Speaker: And from the Buddhist perspective, it's craving attachment. It's wanting things to be other than how they are is what gives rise to what we call suffering. And that's like a coin with two sides because we're chasing after the thing that we want and we're running from the thing that we don't want. And that's kind of the root of suffering. Then we have the third one, which is the understanding of the cessation.
Speaker: the cessation of the causes of suffering. So if I can identify what's causing the suffering, I can work to eliminate the cause of that suffering, and that will eliminate any unnecessary suffering I might be experiencing in my life. And then that leads us to the fourth one, which is the path, the path that you follow or the life
Speaker: the lifestyle choices that you make that help to work to eradicate these causes of suffering. And that in Buddhism is sometimes referred to as the eightfold path. That's the foundation of what Buddhism teaches. Yeah, that's awesome. And it's always a good reminder, I think, to put a question mark next to questions themselves, since often there are assumptions behind a question that perhaps are the real target.
Speaker: Something I'm curious about is when it comes to craving, is it craving in general that is problematic or craving for particular things, whether it's particular sensations or maybe aversions, avoiding particular things that are especially problematic?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a good point to bring up because the correlation between suffering and craving is generalized. Anytime I'm experiencing suffering, it's because I'm craving something.
Speaker: But we do need to separate that they're skillful and unskillful craving. And the same way that we need to clarify there's natural and unnatural suffering. The suffering I'm going to experience when I stub my toe, that's natural. I don't need to be stressed that why, you know, why am I allowing that to hurt me? Because I'm feeling pain and I don't want to feel pain that, you know, that's, uh,
Speaker: We don't need to try to eradicate that form of suffering from our lives. That's natural.
Speaker: With craving, it's the same. We have certain cravings that are natural. If I haven't had water in a certain amount of time, I'm going to crave drinking water, and I don't need to feel bad about that. That's unnatural craving. But there are certain cravings that are unnatural, or I would say unskillful, and they may be founded in beliefs that are not useful. Take, for example, if
Speaker: as a society if we believe that there's a certain standard of image and I need to fit that, now I may be craving to look a certain way and taking action that may be unskillful all because as a society we believe that, you know,
Speaker: that you shouldn't have gray hair. And here I am starting to have gray hair, and I may be doing all these unskillful, unnecessary actions that are, or experiencing unnecessary suffering all over the belief that says, I shouldn't have gray hair.
Speaker: That reminds me of in Stoicism, there's this idea of indifference. So for the Stoics, these are things that don't ultimately matter. What's on the Stoic view of life, what ultimately matters is virtue, having a particular kind of character. And virtue is sort of exhibited by using these indifference well. So something like reputation, that's something that they might call preferable indifference. In general, it's better to have a good reputation than a bad one.
Speaker: But it's not good in and of itself and what's all you know matters how the way you exhibit virtue or character is using your reputation Well, and that can look like a wide range of different things at different circumstances So that seems to map on at least some to this idea of skillful craving to some degree. What do you think about that? Yeah, I like that because it's acknowledging that we are going to have craving that's one of the paradoxes with the teaching of craving is
Speaker: if I can identify that craving is the cause of my suffering, then I start to crave to not crave. I'm trapped, right? That's the paradox. It's like, you can't crave to not crave because that was the problem all along is wanting things to be other than how they are and how things are. Sometimes we crave things. So the skillful approach to it would be to
Speaker: look at and say, what is this thing I'm craving and why is it that I crave it? And through that introspection, I may realize, okay, I'll continue to pursue that. Or I may realize that was unnecessary. Maybe I don't need to care so much about that. I like the way you described that. I think that kind of fits there. You can be indifferent around one form of craving and maybe you should pay more attention to another one because that one's causing more suffering.
Speaker: Right, right. I suppose there are different kinds of techniques for addressing craving or desire. You know, the Stoics also care a lot about addressing desires, desiring the right things, not being averse to things that are not ultimately important is what some people might call a cognitive approach. You're sort of trying to change your beliefs about the value of the thing. You know, you want a good reputation. Why is that? Is a good reputation really what matters to you?
Speaker: There's another kind of approach, which is, you can call non -cognitive, I suppose, which is less around thinking systematically or explicitly, but perhaps closer to what you do in meditation or when you're walking around in nature, which is just trying to observe things as they are. Maybe not if you're trying to reduce a craving. One common failure pattern for some people, I think, is what you just mentioned.
Speaker: Thinking about I want to reduce this craving. This is why it's bad. I also you know that I have a cycle almost whereas perhaps simply just observing things as they are is the non -cognitive strategy and letting thoughts come and go in a less systematic way almost so that was a bit of a long preamble, but how do you how do you think about that sort of division of
Speaker: ways to approach the world. On one hand, you have a cognitive side, belief space, systematic, and this other approach, which is tension and less cognitive.
Speaker: Yeah, I think what you're describing from the Buddhist perspective kind of fits with this notion of what we call habitual reactivity. And we go through life either in autopilot mode, that's the habitually reactive. In other words, this happens, which reminds me of that, which makes me feel this, which makes me say that. And that cycle that can be very habitual
Speaker: And on the other side of the coin, we would have a more mindful approach where it's more what we're seeking is what we call skillful action. And it's trying to put a pause between that stimulus and response, a pause anywhere in that chain of what in Buddhism is referred to as that chain of dependent origination. It's the cycle of reactivity.
Speaker: Meditation comes in as a technique to help us from time to time get better at not being stuck always in that habitually reactive state. Meditation is kind of like the pause button.
Speaker: And the more we practice it, the more likely we are to not be caught in that habitual state all the time. So meditation, when looked at as a tool to practice this, there are two primary forms of meditation. One is what's called open awareness and the other is called fixed attention or, you know,
Speaker: I like to think of it as a flashlight. And a flashlight, you can adjust the beam to have the wide floodlight that illuminates more, or you can adjust the beam to be stronger and more intense, but it's also more narrow. And if we were looking at entering a dark room
Speaker: and we're trying to just see what's going on in here, the big light might be more skillful. If I see something in the room that I want to pay closer attention to and look at it, I may alter the beam to now look at that closely. So that same idea is happening in the mind.
Speaker: when we're practicing these two techniques. One is noticing what's there, what thoughts, what feelings, what emotions. And then the other is to pinpoint a specific thing. Why do I feel this particular emotion or why do I wrestle with this particular question? And I think that gets to what you brought up, that taking all of that as an applied practice and then going into your day -to -day life,
Speaker: That could be the difference of I'm driving along, a car cuts in front of me. Before I know it, I've been honking, giving that person the finger and we almost crash. All of that would be part of the habitual cycle. Or the alternate would be, I noticed right as this person cut me off, I sensed inside this deep frustration, but I paused.
Speaker: And thought, why is this bothering me? Oh, it's because I'm late to work. You know, and because of that introspection now, maybe I didn't go down that path for all the rest of the things that would have happened. So that's the skillful action.
Speaker: I also like the idea there's a kind of balance you cultivate between this wider view of awareness and also this narrow view of perhaps attention where you don't want to be too zoomed in, you don't want to be too wide perhaps, but in different
Speaker: context, there are different ways to pay attention to your environment in the right way. Some moments you might be especially focused, others might perhaps be more relaxed and open to whatever is coming your way.
Speaker: Exactly. And I would say that might be one of the most important aspects of practicing Buddhism. It's called the middle way in Buddhist terminology. And it's emphasizing exactly that. The one approach isn't always the right one. And what we call skillful means in Buddhism is that recognition that sometimes this is the right tool. Sometimes sitting and meditating is the right thing. Sometimes
Speaker: reacting is the right thing, right? If someone kicks a ball and it's about to hit my face, that's not the time to ponder and think, I wonder what speed this ball is traveling and where did it come from? No, that's the time to duck. So we're always balancing that in our day -to -day life with everything that we do, trying to find that middle way.
Speaker: So one question I have, how do you think about the role of meditation? I know some Buddhists barely meditate, whereas others do so for hours of a day, and maybe even advocate that you ought to take a serious meditation practice, or perhaps now meditation is something that's strictly for monks, not people who are late practitioners. So how do you think about that question?
Speaker: I think that's a good question. I view meditation as one of many tools to put in your toolkit for a practice. In the same way that if we were to compare this to exercise, we may say, well, exercise in general, I understand that that's good for me. But if you were to say, that means you have to run a lot.
Speaker: That may or may not be the correct way to approach it. It may be a mix of other forms of exercise, walking or weightlifting. There's so many ways, swimming. I view meditation the same. If we look at, there are specific meditative techniques. One may be sitting on a cushion and doing what we all picture when you picture the idea of meditation.
Speaker: that may be useful at times. It may be useful for a certain person and personality and stage of life, or for another that might be torture. It might be like, why am I sitting here doing this? There are so many other ways to meditate. So if we're looking at meditation as the specific practice, I don't think it's right all the time for everyone. And I don't think it's necessary to sit on a cushion for extended periods of time.
Speaker: But for some people, I think it's very beneficial. But there are other tools in the toolkit that help contribute to maybe we'll call the overall practice mindfulness practice. And meditation is one of the tools for practicing mindfulness.
Speaker: Got it. Well, I understand it's always hard to talk about things at this level of generality, but are there particular heuristics or rules of thumb one might use for thinking about, you know, which tools, which practices to invest in or how to think about, you know, maybe questions like my meditation practice. How well is it coming along? Does this mean it's right for me to do more of it or that perhaps I ought to focus on?
Speaker: say, reading texts or doing some kind of practice that doesn't involve sitting in a cushion but is, in my ordinary day, what have you.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure that there's a specific thing to follow. The most basic form of the practice when someone's new to all of this, the idea is to kind of try different techniques and see what works well for you. So the bigger umbrella, the mindfulness.
Speaker: The definition of mindfulness is to be able to observe the present moment without judgment. It's the mindful observation of the present moment without judgment. And I think that without judgment is a key there because if I'm sitting here thinking, am I sitting here the right way? Am I thinking about the right thing? Should I not be thinking that I'm judging?
Speaker: What should be happening at the most basic level of mindfulness practice is you're taking stock of what's actually going on right now. What am I feeling? What am I seeing? Oh, here's that thought. It's the same way that you would look at clouds in the sky. If you're just looking at them, you're not getting caught up in the meaning of, well, that cloud's too puffy or that one's too gray. There's no judgment that takes place when you're observing.
Speaker: So mindfulness as a practice is similar. There's no judgment taking place. You're just getting better at observing. Then you have all of the various ways to practice it, the various techniques. For example, I have a list where I have like 30
Speaker: of the more common mindfulness or meditation techniques. And I usually recommend people try each one of them once, you know, over the course of the next however long and see which ones come naturally to you, which ones feel beneficial and then stick with those. And at some point that may not be beneficial because life's always changing. You may find yourself gravitating to a different one, but the overall idea is if you're always trying one of them, you're
Speaker: you're getting better and better at not being in that continually reactive state. You're getting better at
Speaker: observing what's happening and putting a gap between what happened, me noticing what happened, and then deciding how am I going to act? What am I doing next? That space, I think, is what really matters. So that's how I approach it. I think in different traditions, it may be different. Like in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, you may sit there and they're like, this is what you do. And you do that until, now that you can do that, now try this other thing. And that may work for some people, but it
Speaker: for others it may not. So they'll try that one technique and say, well, I guess Buddhism isn't for me. And it's like, man, that was just one flavor of it. And it didn't work for you, but there's so many others. I think it's worth poking around and seeing what you like and what works.
Speaker: So when we think about mindfulness as attention in the present without judgment, what does this idea of judgment amount to? Does that mean that they're judging things as true or false is not something that occurs? Or is it relegated to ideas about value judgments?
Speaker: judging things as bad or good? That's a good question. So the notion of judgment, I would say, at its core from the Buddhist perspective is centered around what we call feeling, feeling tones.
Speaker: we're continually assessing anything that comes through the senses, any of the five senses, or even if you count the mind as a sixth sense in terms of thought, we have a feeling associated to it that's either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. So to be aware of
Speaker: the judgment I'm putting on an experience. For example, I touch something, it's hot. That's unpleasant. The pain I'm feeling is unpleasant. So now I've judged this experience to be an unpleasant thing. That's what we mean in terms of judgment.
Speaker: So extend that to the practice of meditation. If I'm sitting there judging my meditation, it's either a pleasant experience, an unpleasant one, or neutral, and I'm indifferent. If it's a pleasant one, we chase after wanting more of it. If it's unpleasant, we typically feel aversion to it, and now I'm going to do everything to make sure I don't feel that again.
Speaker: And we're trying to not get caught up in that when we're practicing mindfulness. It's just allowing the thing to be what it is. Because the idea is that if I'm not caught up in that game of chasing or running from, I might just spend time with it long enough to notice something that I hadn't noticed before. And that's the insight that we're after. Emotions are a good example of this. If I'm experiencing anger,
Speaker: And I can't sit with my anger long enough. I can't gain any insight from the anger I'm experiencing because it's such an unpleasant feeling to be angry that now I'm just doing the next logical thing, whether that's punching the wall or saying something mean or whatever the action is. All of that is because of the aversion I have to the feeling of anger.
Speaker: This approach is saying it's okay to be feel anger. So sit with the anger, explore it, like really try to get to know it. Where am I feeling the anger? Why am I feeling the anger? Through that introspection may come insight. And then I learned something about myself or the situation I'm in or the circumstances. And that is beneficial rather than just being caught up in the reactivity of, here's the thing I'm feeling and now I'm, now I'm reactive, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, I think so. The Stoics had a distinction between pre -pathae and pathae, which roughly maps onto sort of immediate feelings and then emotions. So, and they would say that something like
Speaker: I feel something boiling up in my chest or a rush of heat to my head or thoughts that I've been wronged if we think about anger. These sorts of things might occur immediately to anyone. Even the stoic sage might experience these sorts of things. It's out of their control. But emotions are not fully developed until one responds to these sort of initial feelings. We interpret these situations as one in which, you know, not just
Speaker: sensations in the chest, sensations in the head, a single thought, but the idea that I am angry, I have in fact been wronged and someone else deserves to suffer as a result of that. So that seems similar where the focus of
Speaker: judgment is not so much on these initial sensations, reactions, but is what the story or interpretation that we layer on top of these, you know, just what's in front of us. Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker: And what's something that I think might be interesting to explore is the role of impermanence in Buddhism. It's also a theme that the Stoics talk about a lot, the impermanence of our lives. But it's also essential to Buddhism, of course. I wonder if you could say some about the role impermanence plays in the philosophy.
Speaker: Yeah, so the role of impermanence is really important in Buddhist philosophy. When we go back to that description I gave you of the four broods, or if you go to the doctor, the final thing that you get is, here is the prescription. Here are the steps you need to take to get over this malady or sickness that you have. That is what we call the eightfold path. And the first step of that eightfold path is skillful view or understanding.
Speaker: And the notion of that idea is that we go through life seeing things as if they were permanent, independent things. Like I see the flower.
Speaker: And all I see is the flower, but I don't see the true nature of the flower, which is interdependent. To see the flower, I need to also see the sun, the clouds, the storms, the dirt that the flower's in, the bees that are pollinating the flowers.
Speaker: when I see the flower in that interdependent lens, then I'm seeing it for what it really is. So you take that same idea and extend it to everything because all things are interdependent, all things have causes and conditions. And to start to see the world that way, to see ourselves that way, the emotions, the memories, everything that we identify as me, this sense of self,
Speaker: fits in this lens of, through the lens of interdependence, then what do you see? That's that very first step on the eightfold path. That's where it all starts. And the insinuation of this teaching is that to not see it that way, you're going to experience a lot of unnecessary suffering because ultimately you're seeing reality not as it is, but as you think it is. And those are two different realities.
Speaker: So interdependence is a very important aspect of Buddhist practice. In fact, interdependence and impermanence, the two go together really well. And we call it seeing with eyes of wisdom. The eyes of wisdom are those two eyes of interdependence and impermanence. So yeah, that's a very important part of the path that you would walk down if you're trying to apply Buddhist philosophy to your day -to -day living.
Speaker: What sorts of practices would one do to cultivate that sense of seeing things as they are and in particular seeing them as interdependent and impermanent?
Speaker: So one really good one that I like is to take an item, any item, pick something one day and just look at it and ask yourself, what are the causes and conditions that gave rise to this thing? You can imagine a car, for example, if you were to take a car and disassemble it to all of its parts and put it out there in the parking lot, what are those parts? Well, you would say, okay, there's an engine, there's the tires, there's the steering wheel, the seats.
Speaker: What you would find is the moment you disassemble it to its parts, there is no car. You can't go pick one of those items, say, this is it, here's the car. The car was always all of it. But the problem is that every item
Speaker: is it goes on. You could take that seat and say, well, this is the seat, but is it? If you disassemble that, you've got fabric and you've got foam and you've got whatever makes a seat, but there is no seat. So to do that, even if you spend 30 seconds, 60 seconds taking an item and just picking it apart, what you would see is interdependence and impermanence. And then you start to see that thing for what it really is.
Speaker: So the idea is to make that a habit. So when I first started, I just set a reminder on my phone that would go off three or four times a day. And I knew that was my little reminder to look around, pick something. Sometimes it was, Oh, there's a house or there's a fence or there's a, my phone, or I did this once in a bus and I was looking at the, all the little switches up on the dashboard thinking, where, where did these come from? Like, you know, just imagining, cause I don't know for sure, but.
Speaker: I think just the simple art of doing that in your mind, you start to see things differently and over time, then it just becomes natural. Almost everything you look at, you're like, huh, I wonder what had to happen for this to be what it is. And that's how it becomes a more normal way of looking at your reality through that lens.
Speaker: Right, yeah. There's an idea, Stoicism and many other traditions, probably Buddhism as well, have seen things for the first time and that you can imagine coming to something like a bus and asking just these very sorts of questions if you had never seen a bus before. And I think that's always a fruitful stance to take towards things. Yes.
Speaker: What's the role of identity then for you? So I think for some people, maybe to say a little bit more about that mean just because identity, we interpret it in so many different ways. We come up with stories of ourselves and sometimes these stories are very beneficial. Someone's trying to build a habit, common advice is to see yourself as the kind of person who, say, exercises if you're trying to exercise and do the thing that that kind of person does and maybe sort of give evidence to that narrative
Speaker: make your own, as it were. But of course, there are also other identities. You know, I'm the kind of person who is angry or I'm the kind of person who's always anxious in social situations that are going to be less helpful. What's the story about identities for you?
Speaker: So from the Buddhist perspective, when it comes to the notion of identity, there's a teaching called no self. And in some schools of Buddhism, it comes from this notion of emptiness that's the conclusion of
Speaker: looking at something through the lens of impermanence and interdependence, the conclusion is that thing isn't actually the thing that I thought it was. The car, for example, there is no car because if I take off all of the parts, there's actually no car there. So from the Buddhist perspective, you do this with the sense of self and you end up with the same understanding of, well,
Speaker: there is no me. And it's not that there isn't a me, it's that maybe I'm not what I thought I was. There's nothing fixed and permanent and there's nothing independent. So from a physical standpoint, my DNA, I am a combination of my parents, right? So my memories, my societal norms and not bringing everything's inherited from something. So this idea of no self,
Speaker: When combined with the idea of identity, the question that arises is, who am I? Sometimes we'll say what you're seeking is who is seeking in Buddhist terminology.
Speaker: Because what at the core of this experience of being alive is the recognition that what I am is something experiencing what it is to experience. Or you could even say experiencing what it is to experience experiencing. So now that we don't want to deny in this whole process, but there's still me, the me that feels love for my partner, for my kids, the me that feels
Speaker: whatever that feeling is, when I go outside and I'm standing in the sun looking at the mountains, that's all real and there's no need to deny that. But again, this idea of the middle way, somewhere between that intensity of me feeling like there's a me and the recognition that I am one of this entire experience, the universe experiencing itself through me,
Speaker: Somewhere, I think there's the middle way and it's skillful at times to navigate that path where the me that went for this glass of water, that's fine. That's what I'm doing. And the me that has to get caught up in stories.
Speaker: because the stories like you brought up before, they're so complex. There's the story, there's who I am, there's who I think I am, there's who you think I am, there's who I think you think I am. And we've already got all these complex layers of reality there that we're trying to navigate and weave together. So we don't deny, from the Buddhist perspective, it's not about denying those realities and saying, that's not real, don't worry about it. It's saying,
Speaker: Don't get so attached to it. Don't hold a death grip to it. It can be there. Let it be there and skillfully navigate the life of someone who has stories about themselves. But don't get attached to them because the thought that I might have of, I am a, like the examples you brought up earlier, I'm a, I don't know, whatever that story is.
Speaker: Yeah. I don't have to get, I don't have to be attached to it with the death grip because life comes along and it changes the configuration. And now maybe I'm not someone who exercises. I'm someone who doesn't exercise or whatever the thing is. And I don't have to get attached to that either. Like it's just go kind of more like go with the flow and adapt. I think adaptability might be a good word that we're trying to use in this. It's like.
Speaker: All of these stories, all these things are real, but be ready to adapt because life's always changing and the whole configuration can change on you. And then what? If you're attached to the old story, you can't adapt to the new story. Got it. Yeah. So the sense I'm getting is that I initially might hear a teaching like no self and think.
Speaker: These ways of positively using identity to maybe build a good habit are mistaken because not only are you not someone who exercises, there are question marks around whether you are a real being at all to begin with, let alone someone who exercises.
Speaker: But what I hear you saying is that maybe that hardcore version, there's some truth to it. But instead, the thought towards to take towards identity is if you find an identity useful and building a habit, sort of telling these stories about yourself to recognize that what they are
Speaker: is stories that they are deeply connected to many complex facets of social life, personal life, and so on, and be willing to, just as you said, be adaptable if they're not right, if family life, work life.
Speaker: changes perhaps you will be someone who no longer is able to exercise and have that sort of light grip on the sorts of thing as opposed to some story that is permanent, unchanging and so on because that just doesn't reflect the way things are.
Speaker: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I would say just hold loosely to views, all of our stories, all of our beliefs, they all fit in this category of the views that we have. And I think it's much more healthy to hold loosely to those views with open curiosity. Like you mentioned before, seeing a bus for the first time, that notion and Buddhism of beginner's mind
Speaker: I think we should approach ourselves too, like always with that thought of rather than saying, I am someone who, I could say, I am someone who thinks I am someone who, and that already creates a little bit of separation. And the same way that with emotions, instead of saying, I am angry, I could say, I am experiencing anger.
Speaker: And that already creates a little bit of separation to be like, well, what does someone who's experiencing anger do next? Oh, is that what I'm doing? Oh, okay. You know, that's the mindful observation of that. I think we can do that with our stories. Oh, I'm someone who thinks I should be exercising.
Speaker: Okay, well, what do people like that typically do? Oh, that's why I'm caught up in wanting to go do this or that. And then, well, should I? Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't. The point isn't that there's a right way or a wrong way. From the Buddhist perspective, the point is that if I'm going through it in reactive mode, I may be less skillful than I would do it if I was not being so reactive. If I was able to create occasional gaps and spaces between
Speaker: the stimulus and response of this overall ongoing process of being a human that's alive, experiencing what it is to be a human. Is there a kind of person for whom practicing Buddhism may not be a good fit?
Speaker: Yeah, I think definitely. I'm not sure I could pinpoint exactly that type of person. I'll give an example just within my own personal dynamics. I'm married and my wife is not interested in Buddhism. I think it's a
Speaker: a philosophical worldview that would be very troubling for her to wrap her head around. She's driven by the idea of answers. Her worldview gives her answers to life's questions. Things need to be black and white. It's true or it's false. It's yes or it's no. The idea of a system like Buddhism that comes in and says,
Speaker: maybe it's all gray, I think is terrifying for her and for her personality. It'd be more like, no, I need structure and rigid answers that say, this is what we do, this is what we don't do, rather than the Buddhist approach. It would be like, it depends.
Speaker: So I think, yeah, could that change? Sure. But I do think there are people that at a certain stage of how they are or a certain personality, it may not be the most beneficial thing for them. There may be parts of it that are beneficial. I think there are aspects of this type of practice that could certainly benefit anyone. But to say everyone needs to be Buddhist, no, I don't agree with that.
Speaker: another quick correlating this to another thing I do. I teach paragliding. I fly. It's one of my favorite things to do. And I recognize that's not for everyone. If you're afraid of heights, this is not for you, right? So it's something that brings me an
Speaker: incredible amount of joy and contentment, and yet I wouldn't expect everyone to do this. And I feel like Buddhism is similar. I like to think of Buddhism and all worldviews almost like it's a language. It's how we communicate with our sense of connection and meaning in life.
Speaker: And does that language give you the ability to feel connected to something bigger than yourself? For some people, that certain language works for them. For others, that certain language may not work for them. Does that make sense?
Speaker: I think so. I think I'd certainly say the same thing about Stoicism, not for a number of different reasons, many of which I think probably are difficult to pin down. Stoicism is probably not the best fit for everyone, likely the same for Buddhism. There are certainly controversial debates over, well, but is there a fact of the matter? And should a given religious view, philosophical view
Speaker: reflect that fact of the matter. Maybe that's going to be more of a push towards universalism of some kind or another. But in general, I think that's a good answer. And I'd probably say something similar about stoicism as well. Yeah, that makes sense to me.
Speaker: So another kind of question about techniques, I suppose a common technique in Stoicism is contemplating a sage, a model, thinking about often there is different historical figures or perhaps even fictional figures. What's the role of role models in Buddhism? Is that a practice that you find useful, others find useful, or how does that fit in, if at all?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a good question. I think the answer would vary based on the specific tradition. In some schools of Buddhism, you have the teacher guru model, where when you go in and you're learning, you have a teacher that you're learning from, and they're kind of the model that you're trying to emulate. I think that can be beneficial. There are certainly disadvantages of that. There are bad gurus out there.
Speaker: Buddhism as a whole kind of has the structure of the Buddha being the example. I told you about that taking refuge ceremony. When you take refuge in the Buddha, essentially what you're acknowledging is this is an example. This person set the example and I want to emulate that so that I can be like this person. So that definitely carries that idea of a model
Speaker: But it's not necessary. I think if you were to get down into the depths of that idea of a model, I think Buddhism would ultimately point you to the model that you're seeking really is you. Like the ultimate guru is you and the teacher you've been looking for all along is actually you. And I think any good teacher would eventually steer you to that.
Speaker: And then you could see in yourself the thing that you were looking for.
Speaker: Well, since it's a Stoicism podcast, I have to ask, have you had any interactions with Stoicism or any initial impressions? Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up because I don't have a lot of experience with it. I've encountered quotes. Everything I've encountered has felt very compatible and similar to ideas I know from Buddhism. I did buy the book, The Daily Stoic. I may have even read that many, many years ago.
Speaker: But again, what I've encountered from Stoicism in more recent years makes so much more sense now that I view the world through this Buddhist lens. They seem so much more compatible where I think the first time I encountered it, there were certain concepts and ideas that just went over my head. I feel like, I don't know if this is the case with Stoicism, but in Buddhism,
Speaker: The more you learn about these ideas, the more the ideas make sense. So when you first encounter it, it's kind of like, I don't know. But then months later you revisit that same thing. You're like, oh, that actually makes sense now. That's how it's been for me every time I encounter bits and pieces from stoicism.
Speaker: Oh, right, right. Yeah, there's probably something similar where I think socialism and the other ancient philosophies, you'll encounter these powerful quotes and sometimes it can have a very positive effect, but other times they might be ripped out of their context and you might think, what is that first thing going on about? It seems a bit odd. I imagine something similar happens with Buddhism for sure.
Speaker: There's one other question I'm curious about that I wanted to ask was there are a few different forms of people teaching a form of Buddhism around specifically around using meditation to become enlightened. So I don't know if you know about the mind illuminated or mastering the core teachings of the Buddha. I did want to get a sense of if you had heard of like this sort of general trend in meditation circles, what were your impressions of where of that kind of approach?
Speaker: Yeah, I've encountered various approaches to how to teach Buddhism. I think it's important to remember that Buddhism, in the same way that anyone who's familiar with Christianity would know, there are multiple flavors. And for someone to explain the tenets of Christianity from a Catholic background versus a Jehovah's Witness versus a Mormon versus a Southern Baptist, those are very, very different
Speaker: I mean, sure, you could say they're Christianity, but for all intents and purposes, they're entirely different paths. And the same thing happens in Buddhism. You have, you know, the very first big schism that kind of happens with the approach of sudden enlightenment or is it gradual enlightenment? And then within those two frameworks you've got is, you know, this technique versus that technique.
Speaker: what you end up with like we have today, there's just so many different flavors and approaches, so many different schools of Buddhism. And some will say you have to meditate and some will say you don't have to meditate. Some will say you have to recite this particular chant. And so I never feel qualified to speak on a specific thing because that's not my path. That's not my approach in the same way that
Speaker: not going to want to ask a Catholic about what a Mormon believes. So what I would say is, yeah, there are some approaches that will say, this is what you have to do. These are the steps you have to follow. And there are others that will say that there aren't any particular steps. It can just happen because it happened, the causes and conditions. I think I fit somewhere in the realm of
Speaker: My understanding of enlightenment, the way I interpret it, it's the sudden recognition that there are two truths. There's the truth of how things are and the truth of how things seem.
Speaker: And I will always be living in the realm of how things seem because my perception of reality is always going to be governed by my configuration, right? I hear the way I hear because these are the ears I have. I see the way I see. I can't see what an eagle sees with their eyes because I'm not an eagle. So in that sense,
Speaker: Ultimate reality is something that what the eagle sees is true for the eagle. What I see is also true for me, but both of us are incomplete if we want to see it that way. So if I think about a notion as big as enlightenment,
Speaker: To me, to be enlightened, to be awake, to be aware, however you want to define that, would be recognizing that the big picture, I'll never have it. I will always see my picture. I can try to expand mine as much as possible. I could even daydream about what a bigger picture beyond me is, but it's going to be incomplete because I can only perceive my reality from my
Speaker: vantage point in space and time and my particular senses that I have as me. So then what that leaves is a whole lot of unknown. I don't know what the ultimate thing is. And I personally think that to be enlightened is to recognize
Speaker: that I'm always going to not be enlightened. To me, that's the essence of enlightenment. It's seeing that there's nothing to see, but I don't have to be caught up in what I see because that's incomplete. And I feel like that is the example that the Buddha gave, because what great thing happened after that enlightenment? Nothing. He went on and taught this method
Speaker: And the whole focus of the teaching is the method, not the result, because the result might be different for different people. But I think what could happen if you're practicing the method is you experience a greater amount of inner peace that you wouldn't have experienced if you weren't practicing the method because you'd be going around habitually reactive to everything and
Speaker: running after the thing you want and running from the thing that you don't want. And that's it. That's your life. And the enlightened approach would be not being caught up in that rat race. So I like to think of it as the hamster that's running on the wheel because it thinks it's getting something. That's not the enlightened path.
Speaker: The hamster that decides, you know what, I don't have to be running. That's enlightened. But so is the one that says, I don't have to be running, but this is fun. I'll just keep running on the hamster wheel. But now it's because it's fun, not because I feel I have to. That would also be enlightened. So that's how I like to view it. Excellent. Very good. Well, is there anything else you'd like to add or anywhere you'd like to appoint listeners who want to learn more about Buddhism or your work in particular?
Speaker: Sure. My work in particular, I have it posted on my website, secularbuddhism .com. I have podcast episodes that kind of go through the Buddhism 101, just the basics that I think are relevant to all forms of Buddhism.
Speaker: I have a book that I wrote as well called No Nonsense Buddhism for Beginners, and that's certainly focused on just traditional Buddhism 101, all the basics, core teachings, concepts, the history. It's very concise, so it's not a hard read, but that gives the basics. What I usually tell people is dabble with it, see if it
Speaker: In general, is this a worldview that you're like, huh, this kind of makes sense to me? Then go down that rabbit hole. There are a whole bunch of other resources and books that are not from me, but I have them linked on my website. If you want to go down the rabbit hole of Buddhism, and you may find one or two things here or there that
Speaker: prove to be very beneficial and very useful, and you may not. But you'll never know if you don't go exploring. And I think you would agree it's the same thing with stoicism. Dabble with it and see if the ideas resonate, then keep going down that path. Excellent. Well, thanks again for coming on. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's always fun talking about these topics.
Speaker: Thanks again for listening to Stoa Conversations. If you found this conversation useful, please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. And if you'd like to practice stoicism with Michael and I as well as others walking the stoic path, we are running our three -week course on stoicism applied. It'll be live with
Speaker: a forum, interactive calls, that I think will be an excellent way for a group of people to become more stoic together. So do check that out at stomeditation .com slash course. And if that's not to your fancy, you can find links to the Stoa app as well as the Stoa Letter, our newsletter on stoic theory and practice at stomeditation .com. Thanks for listening. Until next time.
