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Red Light, Green Light: The Controversy of Mass Effect 3 || Mass Effect Month
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In the year 2022, two podcasters travelled through time to stop the threat of the podcast bots, unaware that it was the beginning of something far bigger. After establishing the PodPack Collective, the Chatsunami podcast and their allies now ready themselves to defend against the podcast promoters that lurk in the darkest depths of the internet.
They called it the greatest alliance in podcasting history.
The communities of the internet call it... MASS EFFECT MONTH.
Welcome to the third episode of Mass Effect Month! In this episode, Satsunami is joined by PodPack member Dan from the Casting Views podcast to discuss one of gaming's greatest controversies: Mass Effect 3. After all this time, did it fail to deliver a satisfying finale? Was the DLC the final nail in the Prothean coffin? And what colour is Dan and Satsu's favourite?! All this and more on the third episode of Mass Effect Month!
This podcast is a member of the PodPack Collective, an indie podcasting group dedicated to spreading positivity within the podcast community. For further information, please follow the link: https://linktr.ee/podpackcollective
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Transcript
Decision-Making in Podcasting
00:00:03
Speaker
So, it's finally come to this, huh? After all we've sacrificed? They knew what they were doing when they signed up for this. What matters is we made it here. I know, but after a look left for the Andromeda Initiative, and Mary stayed behind to protect her collection of Garris body pillows, I feel conflicted. You can't be responsible for the Garris
Mass Effect Month Introduction
00:00:23
Speaker
what now? The point is, now we need to make the biggest decision of our podcasting career right now. Everything has laid up to this moment. This is such an important decision, Setsu. What are you going for?
00:00:35
Speaker
That's the thing, isn't it? If a wrong, then I'll lie awake at night wondering what could have been. To think of what choice those in our place would have made. What does that make us? To have this bird in place upon us? Damn it, sats, who make the choice? Fine. I'll choose the red cornetto. This is gonna be a long episode, isn't it? Yep. Welcome to Mass Effect Month.
00:00:59
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the third episode of Mass Effect Month. My name's Sat Tsunami and joining me aboard the PPC Chat Tsunami is none other than the one and only commander of the PPC casting views, it is Dan. Dan, welcome back. Thank you, firstly thank you for that introduction but more importantly thank you for having me on for this episode. Oh, no problem at all. I mean, I was saying it to Luke a couple of weeks ago. I was saying that to Marie last week. But this has been a month long in the discussion, long in the making. We have been planning it out meticulously. And as we kind of hinted at the beginning, it has all led to this. But first of all, before we jump into it, how are you doing tonight? I'm doing really well, thank you. I'm excited to talk about this. Can we let people into a secret? We're actually recording this as a double episode. Well, double episode. You just guessed it on mine, but in reality that's gonna have aired about two months ago. So yeah, I get the pleasure of talking to you for about four hours tonight, yeah. I mean, to be fair, so has Luke and Marie.
00:02:05
Speaker
their record sensations? Whether they wanted to or not, I don't know, but they were very passionate. I didn't want to stand in the way of that passion. So yeah, tonight is going to be the longest episode ever. No, for legal reasons. That's a joke. Did they know you pressed stop about an hour into that episode and the other two hours of conversation you had with them was just to you? Yeah, I tried stopping it, but I feel as if there was something icky in the system. OK, there was some hackers in the system. There's someone, there's going to have been an IT tech, a recording application that you use. They're probably saying the bandwidth's gone up
Mass Effect 3 Discussion
00:02:38
Speaker
tonight. What's going on? We've seen a threefold increase in bandwidth usage. What's going on?
00:02:43
Speaker
and And speaking of controversies, both were myself in this game. Today, as we said, we are going to be talking about the slightly controversial entry into the series. So in our first week of Mass Effect Month, we talked about the highs and the impact that the first game had. We talked about the stellar writing and the action set pieces of the second game. And this week, however, there's a lot of good and bad for this game. In particular, the fact that this game came out in, and I can't believe I'm saying this, it came out in 2012. How was it that long ago? 12 years ago, yeah. Can you believe it? Well, I think what was even worse was realising that Mass Effect 1 came out 17 years ago. Yeah, it's 2008, wasn't it?
00:03:34
Speaker
Yeah, 2007, 2008. Yeah, it was depressing. The ravages of time marches on and all that. But yeah, before we go on and get into the meat of this episode, what was your experience with this particular entry and Mass Effect as a whole? So it's no secret that I love Mass Effect. It is my favourite game. It's my favourite series. Is it perfect? No, but for me it is near as damn it perfect. So I won't go too much about the earlier games because I know you've covered them and extremely well with our friends. So the reason I said 2008 is because that was the year I got my Xbox 360. So I think I've said on either my episode or your episode that I was a PC gamer at the time, but I was never spending a fortune on my PC. Got to the point where it was struggling to run anything even in the lowest of settings and my wife at the time said why don't you look at getting a console thing because I had a friend at work at the time I'll go around to his and play Xbox. Now I jumped on her saying that because there were three games at the time that I really was envious of console players playing at the time specifically Xbox because Mass Effect was an exclusive but one was Mass Effect
00:04:47
Speaker
And it's probably the sole reason I got an Xbox 360. And yeah, I remember it being 2008 and I loved it. I've always been a fan of the kind of like the action RPGs. And yeah, literally from the minute I first played it, it gripped me. Played the originals multiple times. I've now got the legendary edition. And I've said to you before I do a yearly run through. It's like a tradition now with me. I have to go through the trilogy at least once a year. I just love the game. I have to say, ever since I started getting into the game this year, it has been amazing to see all of the other Mass Effect fans pop up all around the internet, and especially with another Podpack collective group as well, because I made this joke last week that you kind of indoctrinated me. in this game, especially with the Legendary Edition, which was just such a good experience. And I remember you would always joke, and I said this before, you always joke saying, oh, when are you going to do a Mass Effect episode? When are you going to do this and that? And I was like, I'll get to it soon. I'll get to it soon. But I think the catalyst was when I saw that this had come on Game Pass. And I thought, you know what?
00:05:56
Speaker
I'll give it a go, I'll try ah again because I've spoken about this in wentton the previous episode that I wasn't the biggest Mass Effect fan when I played the first one. I thought, yeah, it's alright, it's not the best, but I wasn't really playing it as it was intended. I was very quick. I would just rush through it without thinking and yeah, I ended ended up replaying it. I gave it more of a chance. I fell in love with the first game. The second game was even better. Although much like yourself, I do have my gripes with this third one. I really enjoyed it. I thought it was by far one of my favourite games of all time. That is genuinely how I feel about this game. So when the third one came around, I felt a bit bittersweet about it because on the one hand I thought great I'm finally playing Mass Effect 3, I'm finally playing the end to this trilogy but on the flip side I knew I would have to say goodbye to Mass Effect which I know sounds very dramatic but considering I've written three skits to follow these episodes I think you can tell I'm a wee bit of a drama queen here. but
00:06:58
Speaker
ah Going back to what you're saying about having indoctrinated you, it just made me think, I have to say, because at the time, I remember I think it was Josh Scarr from Talking Smack messaged me and said, have I taken over the chat tsunami social media? Because you just started talking about it. What you said there about the saying goodbye to it, I'm going to admit it. Whenever I play Mass Effect 3 and we'll come onto it, there are extremely emotional bits. Now, there are some TV shows that don't get to me, that films don't often get to me. There's a couple of scenes in this game That would juice me to tears every time. And last night I was saying to her, I was just going over my notes and thinking about a bit. I went in to see the wife and I said a line and then you could see her eyes sort of starting to go. It's a brilliant game. It's a brilliant trilogy at getting you sucked into a story. But more importantly, characters not always well written. The script isn't always brilliant, but there's enough of a really good storyline and depth in the characters to get you hooked
Mass Effect Endings Controversy
00:07:51
Speaker
on it. No, absolutely. I was saying this before to Luke and to maybe less of an extent when I was talking about Mass Effect 2 last week, but I do feel as if without the core characters and the writing and the story and whatnot that this game would probably have been forgotten if we were solely to judge it on the gameplay. Because if you look at the gameplay, it's relatively simply basic. I'm not even talking about the dialogue wheels and whatnot, I just mean the general if you're taking it for its action and comparing it to something like Call of Duty or even Halo, then it doesn't really stand out enough personally to me, but at the same time, it's not really the gameplay that you come for. For Mass Effect is the story, it's the characters, it's the emotional resonance that you have with these digital people that live at your screen and yet you cry about them when they're going through turmoil and
00:08:49
Speaker
i even things and it's just a beautiful game series to be fair. Now granted Andromeda is where it gets a bit iffy but we will indeed be talking about that next week with Luke from Mayor's Algic but see without any further ado will we dive into this game and see where this trilogy has led us to? Yeah and one thing I will say about this is you asked me and you were kind enough to say that what one would I um want to come on to and it was a tough decision not to say have me on all three please. chip ah me I mean the first one is just a great start to the trilogy. The second one I can't wait to hear the episodes you do because the opening to two is probably one of the best openings to a game I think there is right. But three, I think I had to come on to it because as you said, it is the culmination of it. It is basically at the time, four years of investing in the characters. You know, it's not a long time in looking at other trilogies, but for me, it's the only one thing I'd want to talk about. The ending, well, I know we'll come on to that. I'm not going to jump to it, so I'm happy to approach it any way you want to. You know, you alluded to controversy. I get it. I'm not going to say here and say it's the best. I think they tried to fix it and to some extent, maybe they succeeded. Well, seeing that note before we dive into the controversy, I was going to say we'll keep the audience waiting for just a minute or two as they listen to these transmissions and we'll be right back after this really long elevator ride once again. Welcome to Shatinami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests.
00:10:21
Speaker
Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Bayblade series. If that sounds like you're a cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, Stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:10:59
Speaker
Fancy taking the humorous trip down a random topic each week? You do while you're in luck. Casting views presented by me, Dan, and a host of guests, bring you just that. With topics from the world of entertainment, science, sport, and everyday life, there's bound to be a topic that's going to inform on the news. Catch casting views every Sunday on all listening platforms now.
00:11:32
Speaker
I swear to God that elevator gets longer and longer every episode. Anyway, back we come to the episode. So before we dive in, because there's a lot we're going to be discussing and dissecting in this episode, we're going to be talking about the story, we're going to be talking about the gameplay, we're also going to be talking about as well the characters, which is always the time sink for these episodes. But before we go into this, and it's something new I would do too before we went on the ad break there, There is a lot of controversy surrounding this game, not including the ending, because as you said, we will get on to that at the, ironically enough, the end. But yeah, do you want to go into that and discuss what went wrong initially with this game?
00:12:16
Speaker
I'm just going to say I think it's probably a combination of things. I think it wasn't over and it probably was a lot of ambition in the game. I'm not going to say over ambitious, but it was the first game in my recollection anyway, where it was trying to carry over decisions over a number of games. We said before the elevator ride, we said that the story is what brings a lot of people back. So there's a lot of investment. We've both said there's a lot of emotional attachment to the game. to what boiled down to a you riffed on it brilliantly in the skit right let's start pick a colored door to walk through that's ultimately what it felt like right and i think that's what upset a lot of people and then even the endings themselves originally felt quite truncated you know there wasn't that much then obviously they tried to rectify it with some extra dlc But I think it was just that sense of disappointment that your years of experiences and decisions amounted to the prize behind which door do you want to choose, one, two or three, you know? I do think that is absolutely baffling to think that, as you said, you had this long yearly journey to these worlds, to this universe of Mass Effect and the fact that the world is so deep and everything and then you just kind of get slapped in the face with this quiet. I don't want to say basic ending because I will get onto it. There is a little bit more to it I think but what I will say is I played and I've said this before but for this month I played the Legendary Edition. I didn't play the original when it came out. All I knew about at the time was the controversy around it, that the memes were flying about the different colors and things that you could choose at the end. It caused a very visceral reaction, let's just say, amongst the fanbase and gamers as a whole. And by the time they actually, I don't want to say fix the ending, but they added onto it. People had already moved on at that point and it was bogged in by a lot. I mean, you had to the multiplayer aspect of it, which I genuinely did not know was a thing until I was looking into this game and people were saying oh you had to get war assets which I know I'll explain but you had to get war assets through multiplayer and you had to do this and that I genuinely had no idea that Mass Effect 3 had multiplayer and that was just baffling to me but it kind of reminds me of the way that gaming was at the time because do you remember I think around the same time Dead Space 3 came out and that was, I don't want to say it's similar, but that took a more, and again it's a bit like the films Alien where you know the first one and second one, a more horror action and then the third one's just full-on action and that's exactly what it felt like for Dead Space 3 where it was more focused on bloody cover bass shooter play and that kind of thing and oh we're gonna have multiple, you know it was a general EA thing but for Mass Effect 3 it did feel as if they were putting more emphasis on the action and what was popular at the time. You could excuse the clunkiness in the first one because it was Bioware's
00:15:21
Speaker
I want to say again that it was their second or so foray into real-time action based RPGs where you could shoot in real time and then you could make decisions on the fly. I feel as if in the second game they absolutely capitalized on that but for the third one the action was there. I'll give it that but it didn't feel as if the story was as strong I see what you're saying, I think I get it because it's coming off episode two or game two where you had that whole, well three is almost a repeat of two in a sense if you've got to go recruit people right? So it's having you do the same things again. I think the thing with two is by far and away the standout game I think. the trilogy right? The characters by and large are all great and it finishes with that suicide mission and so it builds up to a crescendo and then again three then starts off with a lot of the crew that you've kind of bonded with in that game have gone elsewhere and so you're starting again with to some examples some characters that a lot of people didn't like and you can't get me to like them but I think it's a story that I think there is
00:16:22
Speaker
ah good story there i think it's just lost a little bit it's not as focused and i think it's lost something coming after what is probably for me anyway that the shining light of the trilogy part two but going to your point about the multiplay you know what the multiplayer was actually enjoyable at first i was thinkinging they've just added it on it's one of these things it's like i think it was at the time of like
00:16:45
Speaker
a good story there. an online bit. But if you played it with friends, which I did at the time, a couple of Aspect friends, it was enjoyable. Even if you weren't, you were playing with quote unquote randoms. It was a good experience because it was tied into the war assets, so there was no reason not to play together as a group. or to help each other and if i remember right it was i think it was like a four player horde mode kind of like Gears of War and i enjoyed it i thought it was good i run play you'd get unlocks unlike the game where you were just playing as commander shepherd in the multiplayer you could play as different aliens i remember different races the issue i have with the game and the online bit is three more than any of the others in the single player game in the campaign the areas you went into felt like they were just and they were the maps from the multiplayer they were just hoard modeina weren't they you
00:17:40
Speaker
go into an area and you then couldn't proceed until you wiped out all the enemies and i think that felt jarring to me even now when i'm playing It definitely felt a lot more stripped back at times, especially in certain missions where you have to fend off Cerberus, you have to fend off the Reapers and things. Yeah, you're completely right. Even in ah priority to Chanka, when you have to go to Rex's There was a lot of repetition that you had to go from point A to point B, you had to fend off this and that, and I mean, it's the same as well with priority radoc where you had to defend the terminal point and things, and there was a lot of repetition in that regard. And I have to say, briefly touching on the gameplay, I felt as if the gameplay felt a little bit better in terms of the action. You know, it felt a little bit more solid compared to the other ones, but at the same time I totally agree with you. I feel as if there was a lot of
00:18:39
Speaker
repetition there going on to the story itself. It's quite an interesting take for it, I have to say, because they have a different excuse when you begin the game and you haven't played the rival DLC from Mass Effect 2, but if you have played it then you have indeed killed 300,000 Batarians. A little bit awkward and as you're getting tried in Space Canada, which as a running joke I refuse to let go of, you're walking through and you are warning him about the Reapers and it's really weird because humanity of all people are acting a wee bit like the council and you know they're like ah Reapers, Reapers, we'll be fine and then wha-wha the Reapers arrive, they basically destroy Space Canada, you see the horrific sight of the civilians trying to escape including this poor child and then we'll get to him, don't worry. But the shuttle blows up and you have to watch helplessly as you run away to get help
00:19:37
Speaker
and it's a very powerful introduction, don't get me wrong, but then throughout it, there's a lot of mixed moments in it because I feel as if with see the main set pieces, especially the ones like two previous characters, I feel that's where this game is the strongest, that everything in between just feels a lot weaker in comparison to the other iterations. Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I think, again, because it doesn't feel as concentrated, especially as two. i Actually, I do like the start of three. ah You know, I will say I i do enjoy it. I like the fact that Shepard's actions in that case have been looked at. But again, you know, the one criticism I will say with all threes, it's always the, you know, we don't believe you. We don't believe you. You don't look at everything that's happening around. What more evidence do you want that reapers here? It does feel a bit sort of slapstick at times in that sense. It always reminds me of that meme where it's Anderson and I've brought this up in the previous episodes about where Anderson's saying to Shepard, God damn it Shepard, 300,000 Batarians are dead but at least you stopped the Reapers and Shepard turned right and goes, Reapers?
00:20:45
Speaker
That's what you're talking about. And that meme of Shepard hating the Batarians will never not be funny. But I think the opening, you can tell a lot of a game by its opening, and especially with Mass Effect, because the first game is a lot more slower paced. You do have the action set pieces, but it doesn't rush you through them. It encourages you to take it slow through Eden Prime, and then there's obviously the I go under shot with the Citadel for the second one. You can tell it's going to be a lot darker because old Shepard literally getting blown up in his own ship. And then in the third one, it is very, very fast and just very, very swift. And that does set a precedent that we aren't going to be lingering a lot. We are going to be constantly on the move. We're going to be constantly running we're going to be constantly just going from set piece to set piece which I suppose was I can understand why people were put off by that. You see whereas I think though for me it just sits atone in that they don't have time to waste now. The first two games we've gone jitting off around the galaxy where literally the meme in my head is where we're flying around we're depleting all these planets of their key minerals and and materials. But 3, it starts off and it's almost like that sense of loss and loneliness. So he is sport-martialed. He is down to, you know, he doesn't have all his gear. It's that sense of loneliness and the foreboding nature of what's coming up. And I think what the start of 3 does is it's that relationship between him and Anderson. And I think Anderson is such an underused character in the games.
00:22:23
Speaker
There's two or three things in three that for me are standout and it's Anderson that features in one of my top three, which will come on to is towards the end. and I think you'll probably know what I mean. Oh, yeah. But I think it just is used to show Shepherd's connection and friendship with Anderson. And then like you said, the reaper start invading and that's it. It's like time's ticking. We've got no time to waste. And I think it's a clunky way because it is a video game. I think it's a clunky way of saying time's up now. This is the end. I feel as if as well it does encapsulate that theme of sacrifice, which I know is probably the bare basic interpretation of this game, but I feel as if in the first one that's very much the hero's journey, for the second one that's all about rebirth and identity, trying to find yourself as Sheper's literally reborn in that game.
00:23:14
Speaker
thanks to Cerberus, we will get on to them. And for the third one, because it's very much a war drama, I feel as if the characters do act very accordingly because of that. Even Anderson, you get to see a lot more of Admiral Hackett as well, which I absolutely love. I think Admiral Hackett is a fantastic character. I brought this up last week in the Shadow Broker DLC. There's a particular moment where one of the admirals asks Hackett to give him permission to bring in Shepard, and he has this big huge long paragraph and everything. And then Hackett's response is like, near Admiral so-and-so, no, or the quest denied. And that's it. That's just blunt to the point. And you do see a lot more of the human characters on the other side with
00:24:02
Speaker
as you said Anderson absolutely brilliant character who is leading the resistance on the earth and as well Packett so it's absolutely fantastic and it touches on that nostalgia just in enough to bring you in. That's it because you've kind of summed up for me. It feels like, which is ironic considering the second one was all about recruiting and doing the loyalty missions. The third game feels a lot more, I was going to say it's got the human touch, but we've got all these races. So it's that personal element. It feels more emotional to each character. So like I said, hack it and unhack it. I always love whenever he's on screen, I always try to beat him to say hack it out because that is burnt in my brain. I love it when he says hack it out. no But yeah, Hackett and Anderson have both got personal relationships that they let you in on, don't they? That you have to help them with something personal. And it's like, you know these are highly official and respected people that are asking you for those personal missions. When you're going about, you're always calling back because Anderson stays on Earth. He doesn't want to come with you. He wants to stay on Earth to defend it. And you're always calling back, finding out how he is. All the characters in this game, there are those personal emotional elements that shines through for a number of characters and I think that's what it is about this game so it might not have the overall impactful story say that people may walk away from the second one with but I think this one's got a lot of those more personal moments in it. I mean absolutely, you have so many callbacks to certain characters that I have to say it is fascinating that there's a lot of characters that don't join you as squad mates in this one because there are so many that do join you and we will go into that next I think. but you do get a lot of people who you think why are they in it but then the other choices are relegated to side characters and I feel as if as well, although maybe this is because of time constraints and whatnot and I do think for a game that came out you know two years after one of the greatest game sequels of all time, it's impressive what they did but it feels as if a lot of the mechanics are stripped back
00:26:15
Speaker
in particular with the dialogue and how you interact with people. I feel as if it's quite basic but see on that point will we address some of the characters in this game? So the characters again everything you've said is for me one of the things you're not happy with is some of the ones who aren't going to be your constant squad mates right? Of course. James Cough. Yes, sorry I had a tackle on my throat there. Yeah. ah like Right, let's start with James. Actually, no, do you know what? I'm going to start and just briefly talk another one. You know, people talk about the controversy about the ending. Do you know what the biggest crime that this game committed was? Was Javiq being DLC. Day one DLC at that.
00:26:53
Speaker
and we'll come on to that because you know whether you like him or whether you use him or not he is a massively important character to the universe right of Mass Effect so to have him as day one DLC which we mentioned in the episode that we recorded it just before this for my show on video game collections I got it so I had it but it struck me as always odd that it was ripped out as DLC along with we'll come on to Leviathan But James, now I know I can hear Luke screaming at us. We'll say that, you know, there was a book wasn't there or a short film, sorry, that details his backstory. But for me, as a gamer, you're playing the main trilogy. Not a lot of people will have done that or go into that. So I just think James really doesn't come across as an overly likeable character. Seeing as he's one that's with you pretty much for the whole game, that it feels like at the sacrifice of one of the other characters, it just feels like a misstep for me. I'm not saying he's a bad character and probably the other media will give ah a history to. I'm not going to deny that, but I just think it was a misstep in terms of adding a character like that at such a late stage of this game. Yeah, I find it very, very bizarre. Again, as you were saying there, I think he was introduced in Paragon Lost, which was an animated film that basically detailed his backstory where he was an Alliance Marine that was tasked to define this
00:28:15
Speaker
Planet which eventually got overrun by collectors. He had to make the very difficult decision of basically sacrificing the colonists in favour of retrieving the information that would help the Alliance in the long run. That is a fascinating thing. I don't think the film is great by any means. It's an interesting watch and I would recommend watching it once you get by the dodgy animation I have to say, but in that James definitely is a lot more fleshed out because I think the idea is James wants to be Commander Shepard. He wants to be a Commander Shepard-like character, but when push comes to shove and he has to make those difficult decisions, he just freezes. He can't make those decisions. And I feel as if that's where the game heavily misstepped because as you said, it's very much what Halo did and it's later games as well where it just depends on the idea that you've already read the extended lore and everything and read the extra material and you think well ah why don't you know about James? James is so cool and again I really disliked his character and I kind of warmed up to him read about him and everything. But you shouldn't exactly yeah And I think the extended media came out after Mass Effect 3, I could be wrong. I absolutely love the games but I'm not going to put myself here as knowing everything in depth but I think it came out after 3. Now if you just go into like I asked you to to play the game, James just comes across as very dude bro and almost disrespectful to Shepard. There are glimpses when they're talking about joining N7 and what he wants to do, but again you shouldn't have to read this book, watch this short, do this to warm to a character in a game that is all about Shepard's relationships with those around him or her, sorry. Yeah, because I feel as if there's a lot of characters that they could have put in and then... I think the thing that offends me about James Most,
00:30:15
Speaker
It's just purely the fact that he is the first character that joins your team next to the vampire survivor. So you can either have Caden or Ashley join you at the very beginning and then they leave once you get Liara on your team eventually. And it feels just like they got the most blandest characters to kick you off. And don't get me wrong, I know in the previous game you had Jacob that accompanied you but even then I feel as if that was a heavy misstep of them to lump you in with both of them. To be honest the Vermeijer survivor, I don't really think there's much more to say about them from the past two games. I think they do develop more and they seem a lot more fleshed out in the third one but
00:31:05
Speaker
again in a world full of rich characters and diverse characters, they're just kind of bland in comparison aren't they? Yeah and I think we have to remember as well that again you said it at the start 2007, 17 years ago so we're used to now seeing epic and cinematic games that are rivaling TV shows or films. Now this was a 2008 Xbox 360 game and I think you can probably apply the word clunky and maybe just the scripting of some of the characters. I'm sure you've probably had the ranting from Maria about Ashley probably in episode one I don't know but I know there's a lot of online so much anger about kind of like the ashi character a lot of people hate the caden character Jacob like I said doesn't really jump out of you I think it's just probably victims of scripting when you've got other characters like Rex and I won't hear anything said about Liara you know that so let's see how we get on Liara I like Grunt, I know a lot of people don't. Kasumi, I wish there was more on Kasumi in the game, you know you've got Thane, Jack who again I really like, all I'll say is you know without going back onto the earlier games too much, I think the outfit that they put them in, in the second one,
00:32:15
Speaker
was a bad choice, but the character themselves, I've said to you overnight, didny that to me, Shepard and Jack should be the ideal couple because it feels like they are the two similar people, which I know sounds very weird because Jack obviously had a very traumatic so childhood, but it feels like they're the ones who have seen carrying those mental battle scars. and to see how she evolves in the third game I think is brilliant. So I think some of these characters that we don't like, like James, I think it's just unfortunate scripting and just chucking in another character to try expand upon, but they just didn't quite do it. Yeah, I feel as if with all the amazing characters that we go with, Mass Effect 2, you've got about 12 squad mates, which is a chunky, chunky amount. And they all come to your party at the end, which again, we'll talk about the DLC at the end, but yeah, they're all just absolutely fantastic. As you said, some are utilised more than others, like Kasume is in a side mission where you have to hunt down the rogue Hanar, which I have to admit, I never thought I'd be seeing that sentence with Zaid. That is a very boring mission, but you get the job done and then you never have to see him again until the party. Jack, I have to say, I really, really like Jack in this game. I think that in the second game, she just didn't sit right with me. I don't know if it was because of our potty mouth, let's just say, or the fact that she had nipple belts or whatnot. Just not needed. Yeah, exactly. Middy and I spoke about this before, but that's why when you get the loyalty mission done, we put in the alternative one. know Yeah. But this is the thing. Jack is probably one of the most vulnerable characters, which is why she's as potty-mouthed as you said. They then, to put her in that, like you said, you sung out perfectly, the nipple belt just felt so wrong in that sense because you know this is probably the person with the biggest story to tell out of all of them. And then you put that distraction like that. Do you see what I'm saying? speaking of that accentuating the wrong parts of characters let's just say, you've also got Miranda as well who seems to really play a smaller part in this one which is just such a shame because I know people aren't the biggest fan over but I do feel as if her character arc
00:34:32
Speaker
isn't as i mean it's still good in this game but it isn't as prominent as it used to be. I don't know, I've kind of mixed on it because I know there was probably scheduling conflicts with the voice actors or whatnot or that there must have been something that caused them to cut down the parts but It's a shame that until we got the Citadel DLC that it feels as if a lot of the other characters are just window dressing, except for certain characters. Ironically enough, these are the characters beyond one or two in your actual squad. These are the only ones that actually get a very emotional payoff, whereas for the ones in your crew, not so much. And I would have to say, bar the whole with Trinity. Y'know, Bar, Liara, Tally, and Goddess. I feel as if this is maybe the weakest squad. Well, maybe not the weakest squad, because I feel as if one also kind of struggles with that, but I feel as if it's almost on par in regards to that. But at the same time, I feel as if the characterisation and theory is done a lot better.
00:35:39
Speaker
Yeah the Miranda one is an interesting one and that also reminds me I mean the voice actors that they've got for Mass Effect also is pretty impressive right so you've got you know Martin Sheen as the elusive man you've got Yvonne Strahovski who I think fresh from Chuck I don't know if you ever watched that but she was in there and Jack was oh the name's escaped me who played Jack now it'll come to me but Miranda also her story you know is fairly important in the world of Mass Effect as well right and her father what her father was trying to do and the fact that in the third game then the bit part mission she comes back for is about keeping her sister safe isn't it and it's like yeah like you said though it's relegated almost to just a bit part you got to bump into her under the specific bit of Citadel after a certain bit of time and yeah it just feels like a misstep with the characterization I think yeah. This is probably going to draw the ire of a lot of Mass Effect 3 fans, I have to say, but there is one particular character I want to touch on and say that they were a bit unnecessary to included other than James and other than certain characters. I feel as if Liada for Lee Corey's is such a joke. I almost clicked disconnect then.
00:36:54
Speaker
I had the shot, I had to take it. But yeah, I feel as if of all the characters, Edie seems to be the most unnecessary one. Not that I don't like her personality. I think her character in 2 is really funny and I think that in 3 she does an amazing job. I just don't think the way that they really presented her was very good. Yeah, and I know what you're saying. Yeah. It felt very much, and this is something I was saying to you before we were recording, that I feel as if the art direction in this game is from the mind of a teenager in the sense that they thought, right, what do we need in this game? We need fast pace, big explosions and things. OK, we've got that. Cerberus, for example, who were very much a really sinister organisation and one. And then two, you got to know them a bit better and you got to see that moral ambiguity of, well, the alliance and the council aren't doing anything, so Cerberus aren't the good guys, but at least they're willing to do what they want. So that was really fascinating to explore. But then in the third one, they just seemed, I don't know, like a caricature of the former selves. Yeah, spawn. Yeah, they had unlimited resources, they had sexy murder robots, for what
00:38:16
Speaker
ever reason. I genuinely have no idea why they couldn't have just got a Cerberus agent to infiltrate because she saw the woman there and oh we have to capture her because she's not a real doctor. She's a Cerberus agent and then her skin melts so often. She's a sexy terminator. Like, this isn't necessary. And like I said, in Kai Leng as well, it just felt like it was we just got to up the action a little bit. But you know, what you've got to remember is Jacob, Miranda, even Shepherd were Cerberus agents. So why couldn't it be more like that? It probably would have had a lot more gravitas if it was a squad of highly trained agents like Shepherd or a Jacob. But yeah, I absolutely agree with you. I mean, Edie, Trisha Helfer, isn't it? is the character and what they would try to do. I like the way they tried to explore her trying to be human explore that element but yeah absolutely it was almost like the dream of a teenage boy from the 80s or 90s like in one of those films you know like those bawdy films and that's what I say again you know we keep saying there there are missteps in this but that's why and the way Cerberus becomes a bit of a caricature villain in this. again kind of takes away from the second game but that's why for me the third game is almost about the ending or the payoff for certain relationships and that might be me trying to find the good in the game and some people might say that that's not what it's about but yeah for me Mass Effect 3 is about endings whether it's happy endings for some or bad endings for the other and yeah sexy terminator of killer robots and ninja sort of assassins is an unfortunate thing you have to put up with to get those bits that you really want from the game.
00:39:50
Speaker
But I mean it's like comparing Edie's journey to becoming more of an organic being as opposed to the synthetic being that she is, comparing it to the Geth journey where they ask the very prominent question, does this device have a soul? Whereas as I think Edie's question is more, does this device have a booty? How do I get Joker to notice me, you know? yeah um Yeah, it turns into a dating sim almost at one point where you have to be Joker's wingman at one point. But joking aside, despite that really weird art direction, that I do think that her
00:40:27
Speaker
character is quite funny and she is quite a good character but what I think this game excels at and this is relating to as I said the Holy Trinity here where we've got Liara, Goddess and Tali, three characters who are personally for me I don't know about you but they are at their peak of characterisation. I feel as if every single character, Bar, Jacob and maybe Miranda, just because she's not got enough screen time, I feel as if for the most part every single returning character has great characterisation. I'd agree with that I think the thing you see with this in Liara is the continual growth of her so in the first game she's that you know it's that classic you're rescuing the damsel in distress right you've got to go rescue her then into you know with the evolution into the Shadow Broker in 3 you're just seeing her grow into that stronger character. Jarrus is he's just a great you know I'm not gonna even pretend to joke to upset Marie but anybody cop film show, you know, that he's that sidekick, he's that person you want standing next to you in that battle and he's really well presented and he's almost the one that brings out the human element outside of whoever Shepard dates. Garris is that person that brings out the human side of Shepard and understands what he's going through. Tarly I think yeah again as the games go on and then it's in the third game isn't it where you join the pilgrimage isn't it or you go onto the ship and you are standing up and saying no she is as good a friend or as good a soldier for me as she's served me she's almost as strong as me and the one you didn't say because it's a shame he isn't as big a main character but is Rex and I kind of love what they do with Rex now that he is leading the clans on Tuchanka isn't he? I have to admit whenever I see Rex in any of these games I have such a fanboy reaction to him because he was my ride or die for the first game and the second one that was bummed out he wasn't going to join me and we had good run. And I said this last week that I wasn't as big a fan of Grunt in the second game because I felt as if with Grunt we were going back to the very beginning with what we had with Rex at the beginning where he slowly had to open himself up and by the third game he practically gives you a big hug and it's like oh shipper. Oh they are amazing and he has one of the more emotional scenes which I will get on to.
00:42:52
Speaker
And now, you know, and that's what I'm saying, even Rex, so he is in the first game, he is just the violent tank character. But by the second of the third game, he is leading his people. Again, that just shows that evolution. When they do it well for certain characters, they do it well. Oh no, they knock out of the park for certain... characters. The whole sequence with Shanka, with Palavan, Theta is a outlier, I will say, but with these returning characters, I'm leaving Javic out of this for one second, trust me. He's going to make a comeback soon, but with these returning characters, I think it encapsulates what this game does best, and that is of course the emotional core of this game. Because the second one has emotion, so does the first one, but I feel as if for this one, it is the one that definitely hit me the hardest with a lot of it, especially with in Get Your Pancrates Ready Because This Is Sad Boy Ever's There, but I certainly teared up with more than sacrifice when he's trying to cure the genophage and I jokingly say that line to you to say, no it had to be me, someone else could have gotten it wrong. and it gets me every time. It gets me every time. and It's so sad and I think what upsets me more is I really have a soft spot for heroic characters who make a sacrifice, especially and this is spoilers to the Gears of War franchise but in Gears of War 3 where Dom sacrifices himself and it never gets easier to watch that where he's crying
00:44:26
Speaker
I'm not crying that he's upset but he knows what he has to do and it's the same with us that Morden has helped to cultivate this genophage and ah it is just such a heartbreaking moment but you know his last moment was to save the Krogan race and to help them repopulate and it is just such a beautiful moment when you see although the remains and it explodes that you can see the particles or rain down and everything. And that's exactly it, right, Mordin is, I'm not going to say an emotionless character in the earlier games, but that's how he kind of comes across, they make him, he is a warrior and he created, or he was part of the people that created the genofate, right? Now, what you said is is absolutely right, it's that heroic line, you know, had to be me, someone else might have gotten it wrong, but you know what it is with me, it's not even that line, it's it, I would have liked to have run tests on seashells.
00:45:18
Speaker
And the reason for that, that might sound really silly to people listening, but it's that element of it's regret. You know what I mean? He knows what's happening. And there's always that thing. We always hold out that we're going to do this or we're going to do that. And it's that regret at that moment that he's not going to be able to do what he wanted to do. And the other thing about Mordin's death is that it's actually quite, I'm not going to say violent, but it's, you know, they showed the explosion. He's standing there and it's just a massive explosion. And you just see it engulf him. It's not even cut away. It's like they should have cut away a bit earlier and it just really rams it at home that this character has done his heroic thing, he's got these regrets and we've just seen him go in quite a violent way. It does reinforce the theme of war and this I have to say the sacrifices of course have to be made but usually when you see games like this especially for things like Call of Duty it's wave after wave of faceless soldiers you know it's just a sadistic that oh I can't of hundred have died in this battle or a couple hundred have died in that but when it's somebody you get to know so well in the second game and then in the third game you have to witness his demise it is just so heartbreaking and that links on to another character which is my turn to get emotional now but with Thene
00:46:31
Speaker
okay yeah yeah that broke me i'm not gonna lie where in the second game you find him as a very competent assassin figure but he's also very religious and i absolutely love that about him but in the third game you find him in a hospital and he's in the latter stages of his disease so you basically you can't do anything for him and it is just so horrible i would always whenever i was in the memorial hospital i would always go and see him and talk to him because he is just such a fantastic and damn good character but of course unfortunately he ends up succumbing to an injury by let's face it the worst character in Mass Effect, Kai Ling, and he does so to defend the Salarian council member in his death scene when the doctor said you should really say your goodbyes now and everything and
00:47:23
Speaker
that really broke me because I knew this was the end of this amazing character. His son was with him and reads him the rites. What is even more heartbreaking? and I know the listeners who played FemShep out there and romanced him. Get your tissues ready. But if you romance him, there's a little bit of dialogue difference that if you hear his son collie at say the prayer, it asks for forgiveness of a she. And your shepherd asks, what does it mean? Why did it say she? And he says the prayer wasn't for him, it was for you. And he does a similar thing for male Shep. And then in the Citadel DLC you have a funeral no for him. Oh God, just to keep getting worse, so you think you can't get any sadder, but in the Citadel DLC just
00:48:07
Speaker
briefly touching on that, you actually get a very special voice message or video message from him, and it's basically him talking about how he can send you messages because you were under arrest, which I think darned the alliance, but he talks about the state of Tufira, which is to be lost in one another, which I think is an absolutely beautiful concept. and you know what he says, no matter what I'll see you from across the sea and your shepherd cries, which again doesn't help the tears, but then they make it even worse because they turn them into a damn force ghost at the end of that DLC where, you know at the end of the Citadel DLC where you're standing with your crew and you have that very sweet moment that if you're romancing someone, if you romance Thane, he pops up as a ghost. I don't know. he really Yeah. It is so damn sad because you're saying to him, I wish you could have been here. And he's like, I am always with you Zia. And the romantic in me, you know, just of after stuff after stuff I was like, you can't keep doing this to me. this is it and this is what I'm saying about this game again about being personal and about being goodbyes and endings and this game once it starts punching you in the feels it doesn't let go now for me absolutely modern right I'm just doing all I can to not just break down on this microphone now but the fact that also for that all I was going to add to the modern is that Rex says he's going to call the first kid modern you know there's that line there and just because they're races initially were like bitter enemies Yeah, Thane is just such a sad one as well, right? Even Legion, if you lose Legion, considering he's a gift synthetic, right? That's emotional. And for me, the other one is I don't know if you don't romance Liara, you have the same scene because this this is given away that always romances Liara. You know, there's before the final mission, if you romance her, she comes into your quarters and gives you that gift of like that holo map or whatever. I don't know if that's the same thing if you don't romance Liara. Oh, yeah, how he wants to be remembered. No, no, I'm noticing you mean. And that's emotional. And while we're on this, I also want to say, I don't know if you've spoken about it in the other two episodes, but I also want to say how fantastic the soundtrack is to Mass Effect. You know what I mean? There's that emotional track that you just hear that and that gets you going because it just flashes you back to one of these horrific scenes, you know. But for me also, I would say ah above lane, I would say it's Mordin. And then for me, it's Anderson breaks me every time.
00:50:33
Speaker
he's one of these characters that you wouldn't initially expect to play a prominent role. You know, oh, he's just another admiral or he's just another person in the brass. But he is such an integral and important character. And I'm not just saying that because he's voiced by Keith David, who is a brilliant voice actor to begin with. But the fact is that, yeah, at the very end, where he is the final person that you lose in this game before you go on to make your final decision is so heartbreaking. I'm trying to think if there's any other major ones but the only ones I can think of are if you choose to play the game like a goddamn maniac in which case I have severe issues with you. and That of course being if you decide to side with the Geth and Tali kills herself by jumping off a cliff. I saw the cutscene of that, I couldn't make it. I thought this is absolutely horrific. Why would you put yourself through that? Because that essentially dooms the Korean race who granted to make a lot of very stupid decisions including a war with the Geth when the Reapers have just arrived and the other one of course is Rex's death. if you decide to sabotage the genophage and shoot Morden, which again, why would you do that? What's wrong with you? But that is also heartbreaking because Rex always wanted to do what was best for his people and the fact that you as a long time friend have just utterly betrayed him is just so damn heartbreaking to witness that. And that's the thing for me, you know, you mentioned Citadel each time I play couldn't, you had to play it after you completed it, because it came out after release, but you play that before the final mission, and it's like, you just want Shepard to stay there? In the ID world, he stays in that DLC forever, that's why.
00:52:19
Speaker
happens, right? But I wanted to put something to you and sorry if I'm going to jump forward, but you know Anderson, right? So his death, him and Shepard have battled on to the suit that I have on to the catalyst. They're setting things in motion and they're both fatally injured, right? And they're slumped against the console, aren't they? I'm trying to remember. I don't remember the exact script, but they talk to each other. They're looking out into space, into the galaxy. And I think Anderson's sort of saying it's beautiful. And I think he's always saying he's proud of Shepard. It's almost like a father-son moment, isn't it? Yeah and for me what I want to put you is I've always said to my friends for years you'd have to rejig the ending and how it finishes. For me that should be how the game ended. If that was where Shepard died alongside Anderson and the rest of the game then resolved itself around it, that for me would be, I mean obviously i would I'd have wanted Shepard and Anderson to live and go off and have a few drinks in the bar after but that for me would have been the perfect ending if that's how they met their end in that bit there. no I'm on totally with you there. I feel as if what came next was a bit superfluous in comparison to what you had because, as I said, there's a lot that I don't agree with in this game that I think is too over the top and silly, mainly with Cerberus and of course when you get the elusive man where it just doesn't really make sense I know he wants to be the dominant species in the universe to dominate the galaxy, human rights first etc but I don't know, it just it seems a bit contrived that oh we need a third faction, let's have a highly organised militaristic
00:53:55
Speaker
Cerberus organization, I don't know, narratively, it just didn't work for me. And I felt as if if they'd maybe done something a bit more lover because you can draw parallels between him and Saren, especially the way they meet their end because you can convince them to shoot themselves, which again, as I said in the first episode, a little bit of a weird ending. And it's just as weird here that Shepard would just say, yeah, just give yourself up. And he goes, oh, okay, blam, that's it, gone. It doesn't seem like a great way for them to go. And again, I know there was the rushes and the development of this game. but this is the product that we got at the end of the day. And I feel as if, as you said, when the emotional moments get going, they really get going. One that got me, I actually nearly missed it because I was googling how to save Grunt was when you find that the Reapers have a Rachni Queen and you have to free her. But then, of course, Grunt does that, I'll hold them off and
00:54:54
Speaker
you know, he holds him off and there's that dramatic music and thinks the track's like a future for Krogan or something like that. It's just such an emotive soundtrack. And I genuinely thought he was going to die, but unless you don't complete his loyalty mission, I think, it'll die if you don't complete it. But if you do complete it, then it'll be fine. But I didn't know that. So I had tears in my eyes. I was like, how did I save Gurun? Fortunately, it turned out that I could save both the rack that I cleaned and Gurun. which again, that there's just it was so damn sad at times, but it also got you so invested in it. And as I said, I am one of those people that romance Tali. And I feel as if in the first game, obviously you can't romance her with Goddess, so she just felt more like a walking codex entry for the second game. There was a lot more there and you got to see a little bit more with her trial as a Quarian in her own society, which I thought was cool. but in the third
00:55:50
Speaker
one, I feel as if this is where her character arc is just absolutely fantastic that she comes to terms with. I wouldn't say 100% accepting the geth but coming round to the idea and the whole speech about her telling Shepard about Kyllus a lie, which is the desire to go back home and everything, it is just beautiful. To be honest it's such a beautiful romance option we've got that scene with her as well haven't you where they say this is a planet that you know when they're on that planet where they're gonna make it home yeah like and they're looking out at like the sunset or almost like the sunrise and it's just a pure emotional moment again i mean that is it's beautiful because she takes off her mask and that's what makes her death if you decide to side with the death that's what makes it that much more heartbreaking because she takes her mask off to look at her home planet liberated again from the death and it's just that it's very context sensitive because on the one hand you see her looking at her home as if, wow, this is my home in a positive way versus this is the last thing I'll ever see you without my mask because there's no future for the Chlorians and that is just so damn emotional. Especially the, I don't know if it's the same with Lea at the very end when you're rushing to harbinger and they swoop in with the Normandy and your love interest is like come back to me because with Tali, she's very much like no Shepherd don't go and although it's a little bit cheesy and cliche, I still love it where he said you have a home to go back to and she turned round to say something I covered too but I have a home here, come back to me and everything and
00:57:29
Speaker
Oh, it's just as heartbreaking having to leave her behind. But does Liara say something similar? Do you know what? I'm struggling to remember this, but I also got distracted because it is funny how you justify certain things that you do, even in a video game. And you know why Liara is the one I tend to romance the most in? And I find this really funny saying things like that about a video game. I tend to romance her is because she is a character that is going to live like hundreds of years, right? And so it's almost like I know she will move on, whereas I think someone like Tali, you pretend she's going to devastate her when you don't come back from that mission. And it's funny how you justify, but no, sorry to go back to your question, i I'm struggling to remember because I'm getting it mixed up with that scene where, yeah, she brings you that thing about how you want to be remembered by, yeah. because as much as I was joking to you saying that I'm not a big fan of Liara, I feel as if it's only because of the first game. Because when I first played it years and years ago, she was the first character I went out and got before I went to Novaria. Ferros, but I feel as if I've had the second game in this, especially the third game, her character develops a lot because I have been reading the comics and things and there's had the excellent comic that bridges the gap between one and two where it's Liada and
00:58:47
Speaker
I want to say Farron, the drill that they rescue Shepard or rather what's left of him from the Shadow Broker getting them and she becomes less, as you said, this damsel in distress and doy-eyed young Asari to this badass and she's got a lot more autonomy and belief in herself and I think that's why I love the characters and three so much because they are at their peak, they're at their pinnacle of their characterisation. that 90% of them I would say. Again, James and Steve Cortez and Com Officer Trader. I feel as if those three, I like them enough but because they've been introduced in this game, I don't feel as if obviously you've got the same emotional attachment.
00:59:35
Speaker
which is why I think it's just such a heavy misstep. Not so much for Cortes, because I think what's interesting, and this is on the side, apologies, but what's interesting is the diversity and the amount of love interest that you can pursue in this game. yeah so because and this is something that I was really surprised at thinking back to the first game that you literally only have two romance options but I honestly thought you had more because you've got the Vermeijer survivors and you've got Liada who serves as a unisex option as it were but in the second one you get a lot more choice you know as
01:00:13
Speaker
male ship, you've got Jack, you've got Miranda, you've got Tally, and you've got Kelly, and we've got all these for fame shape you've got you've got Goddess, again you've got Lyanna as well as male, you've got just so many people in comparison. And in the third one, you still have those romance options, but I feel as if they're maybe not as fleshed out if you've pursued other ones like Miranda or Jacob, God forbid. Let's pour one out for the people who romance that's Jacob because he just goes ahead and cheats on you and yeah Jacob is definitely one of the weaker links. He's there for the sake of being there because he was in the last game. I wasn't overly happy to see him again. Kind of the same with Samara. I prefer Samara too Jacob. I thought her mission was really cool but again as a character she's just kind of there, same as Zaid you know. There was a few characters I felt ah I could take them or leave them but especially could I just ask you about one very particularly weird character on the Norman Dickon.
01:01:19
Speaker
Is it Diana Allers or something? That really confused me because correct me if I'm wrong, but was she not a real life gaming journalist or something? Yeah. This is the name Jessica Choba. I think she worked at least for a bit of time for IGN. I didn't know what to think of that, to be honest. Again, it felt as if the teenage boy got control of the script again and was like, oh, and we need this attractive looking person. It's like PVC dress. you know Yeah, I hate that dress, I'm going to be honest. I don't know if it's just because it's the same assets swo as Femship's dress. I don't know, I can't say that 100%, but you know like with Femship she's got the black dress that you can put on. I don't know if they just slapped that on her and then called it a day or whatnot, but I feel as if as a character even that she is just there, she's just in the bills of the Normandy and she just Do you know what I'm gonna put to you right? Everything you've said in the last five minutes or so about these characters. Some of these characters who have been in for a couple of games, some who just introduced in the third, who get quite a bit of air time in the third. For me there's one character who appears in all three, very small, but I think is a better character than some of these and that's Dr. Chuck Quest. Do you know I thought you were going to say blasto for a second.
01:02:34
Speaker
I don't know how we were going to come to that. You know, because again, they do the moments between her and Shepard really well, you know, about having that drink, about remembering the people on Earth. And just in those moments that she's on screen with him, those interactions are ah far superior to some of the characters who have got a lot more sort of showing in the games. Yeah I have to say I just wish that they had more of her. I know that sounds so weird to say but I really liked her in the first game. The second game I was so happy that she was back with Joker and then the third game I was kind of like I wish they just gave her more to do because I think there's and I'm going to dub this on the fly here as the chakra. to a point where you get to a certain point with her dialogue tree and then she just starts spouting the same thing over and over again and you're like, no, come back to me, come and say something interesting, but she just repeats herself. And she gets drunk on that old whisky, doesn't she? I mean, that that's a great scene, but then kind of after that, you're like, right, OK.
01:03:37
Speaker
ah that And that's what I'm saying. Sometimes it's not about the amount of time youre that you're with a character is, as long as those moments you're with a character have got that meaning to it. And sorry, you know, going back to say Grunt, I know a lot of people don't particularly like Grunt, but there's two things you said and for me, they're two of the best bits. Sorry, there's one bit specifically that my wife always looks forward to as well. So yeah, the bit where he heroically goes off with, you know, with the direct night, absolutely. But when I think you meet him in the third game, but you said it at the start, right? He's really overjoyed to see you, right? And a lot of the other characters that you come up to, they're like, oh, you're right, Shepard. Nice to see you again. But he's overjoyed to see you, do you know what I mean? And it just emphasizes that there's that, because he's a young krogan, isn't he? It's that overjoyed, over-emotional, and it's that warm welcome ah to your character, which I think is brilliant. And before we talk about the finale of this game and we talk about the DLC, there's one character that we briefly touched on and that is, of course, Javic, who is a very interesting choice. And I remember when I was playing this and I was saying to you in mid-year about
01:04:41
Speaker
bits that I was getting to and you were both kind of whispering behind my back saying oh should we tell him about this particular character or I believe this particular character should have been at the beginning of the game. I had no idea who you were talking about until I reached him and yeah in the story you end up going back to Eden Prime which I think is just such a fantastic callback. because it's the first colony you visit in the first game, and that you come across essentially a stasis pod and you manage to rescue a Prothean. The Protheans, I have to say, are very mystical. They're legendary. There's not been one for around 50,000 years when the last Reaper attack took place. And there's that almost sense of idealization of them, of this putting them up in a pedestal. I have to say I do feel so sorry for Liara when she finds out the truth that there were conquerors and just very brutal and just such a horrible regime of creatures and the fact she's studied this civilisation all her life and then all of a sudden she's now heartbroken essentially just because this is what she's found out and I feel as if Javic is a bit of an asshole, I'm not gonna lie. I love how his trauma is there, and I don't mean that in a psychopathic way, but I mean more in the sense of he is clearly troubled by his past and his failure to stop the reapers, despite the fact that the Protheans have basically colonised
01:06:11
Speaker
pretty much most of the Galaxy at the time. They were one of the greatest conquerors of their time and yet even their take technology you back then could not stop the Reapers and it is just such a fascinating thing and I do think he is a fascinating character but as you were saying before, he is only part of the, I want to say, From Ashes? From Ashes, yeah. yeah and that baffled me because as I said I played the legendary edition where all the DLC is included so the fact that this character isn't part of the main story unless you buy the DLC and it was day one DLC as well. He was under discussing that's the irony yeah yeah yeah. That is crazy isn't it? Yeah, because I'll be honest, you're right, he does come across as an arse. He said some very insulting things about a lot of the races that are characters who you're with. But, you know, what you've got to remember is, yeah, he is from 50,000 years earlier. They were in a battle with the Reapers. It was a darshan time, okay. you No, no, no, but what should I say is he is absolutely, he is in a stasis. So that is a mindset that he has come from. And also he's dealing with the trauma that he is the last of his kind. He is the last Prophian. But he also says one of the best quotes as well in the game and I've got it here. He's like, stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if on the matters, the silence is your answer. And I just think that's such a cool quote and I always bring him with me because he has always got a lot of unique dialogue, right? Because he is talking about how it was in his cycle. It still irks me that to this day that it was DLC. It seems like a heavy misstep by... I don't want to say it was Bioware's fault but I'm assuming they're publisher. Was it EA that published this? Yes, yeah.
01:07:54
Speaker
Yeah, that would explain it then. It sounds like a knee thing to do, but whoever made the decision to do that, I am totally with you. This isn't a case of, oh, we've rushed the game, we have to put him in last minute. The fact that he was day one DLC is just criminal. It honestly is for this game. Before we talk about the finale, because I have a lot to talk about with the celestial traffic lights as it were, let's dive into the DLC because we touched on From Ashes, we also kind of reference the other ones because we've got Leviathan which gives you a kind of more horror story whereas Citadel is quite possibly one of my favourite DLCs purely because it's just a slice of life comedy with the Mass Effect crew and it's something they haven't really done but in a game that's all about lore and heavy choices and things like that is needed in a game like this. bizarre isn't it in the sense as well that it throws a clone shepherd in which is so out there but it works and it has one of the best moments you know at the end when you defeat him and your shepherd is kind of saying do i sound like that they keep repeating things like i should go do i sound like that i say more like i should go and they're questioning themselves about do they sound as dorky as they think clone shepherd sounded yeah It is absolutely brilliant because you've got that first half where it almost feels like a kind of, I was about to say oceans of living, but it's more like shepherds of living. You know, you have to find out what's going on and you come across the clone shepherd, as you say. And you end the first half and you think, well, that was a great DLC until you realize that there's more to it. If you explore the apartment, there's a lot of really cool Easter eggs. You've got voice notes from Anderson, which is quite cool when that gives you more information about what he was like as a character before everything kicked off. If you play as a, I think it's spacer, if you jump from ship to ship as your backstory, then you actually have a phone call with your mum.
01:10:03
Speaker
ah really aha which I thought was really, really lovely. yeah And again, it just adds to that replayability that you could play through this game and never know that that exists. But of course, the absolute highlight is the party scene. It's obviously one of my favourite moments because it's that last big hurrah where everyone's interacting, they've got a lot of meta jokes and things. But personally to me, I think it all just comes together perfectly. Don't you have Grunt or Rex? Kylight is the doorman. Yeah, Rex. He's looking at this Asian ring cameo and he's just like, denied, denied. I'm like, that is so damn good. You've got everybody dancing said and you spend that last night with your love interest, whether that's Liana or Tally or your fame shape, Janice or James.
01:10:57
Speaker
You can also out-poo up James in this. And you don't even get an achievement for it, but you know what? I did it. You put him in his place. I did, because I had to. He was being a cheeky wee ship, so I had to put him in his place. But yeah, I just think that is absolutely brilliant. I don't know if you don't romance anybody. Then there's a joke that you've slept with, Javic. You wake up in the same bed as him and you just say, not one word. He just goes away and he's hungover the next morning. I actually love that, by the way, that all of the biotics are really chipper in the morning after. Caden's making, again, Canadian space-making, and you're just like, oh, what a glorious day, and Jack's up and she's drinking coffee and whatnot. You mean Caden made it past game one? Wow, okay.
01:11:50
Speaker
it For me, anyway, for me, I don't know about you, but yeah, you've got the other ones who are hunched over the toilet and everything. There's just so many think amazing moments. And I have to say, just before touching on when I was talking about romances there, I was actually really surprised at the representation in this game. As I said, you know there's just so much more in terms of of whether you want to go with a straight relationship, an LGBT relationship. It is just so amazing to see that they put so much effort because I feel as if if you had a character like Steve Cortez or Trainor seen the first game, can you imagine how annoyed people would be? Yeah, well, I can't remember what game, it which one it would have been, but we were saying when it it made the news in the States, didn't it?
01:12:37
Speaker
Yeah, for the first game. yeah And I've said this in the previous two episodes, but the fact that the Fox News called it the sex box 360 will just never not be funny. Yeah, again, in the game, it's not like they were making it a big thing. It was just that's who your character fell in love with. That's who other characters fell in love with. but It was a continuing telling of personal stories, wasn't it? As I said, you go from that to the absolute horrorscape of Leviathan. but But before we go on to Leviathan and then the end, do you have any further thoughts about Citadel as a DLC and the Mass Effect experience as a whole? I thought it was really good seeing it was a bit of fan service at the end to appease fans after the ending but it's just such a bittersweet DLC isn't it it's like I said that's kind of where you want the game to end on that photo and that's how they are they're all friends and they lived happily ever after it did the job, there's that little bit of James Bond-y type of action feel to the start of it. The mission, you've got the comedy of like I said the clone ship, you've then got the party and all the little end jokes. It's a perfect moment of calm before the end of the game, if that's how you play it, if that's where you play it and that's how I do it because I'll make sure you play it before the end because that's where it logically makes sense, right? Yeah, no, I think it's DLC done right.
01:13:57
Speaker
because I feel as if it's definitely the farthest DLC out the bunch. It's a lot more lower stakes, I have to say. Well, except for the first half, but for the second half, you're just basically messing around and you know you're going to parties and things and going on date nights and for tally if you invite her up to the apartment. you have a sing-off like a karaoke night because, well not so much a karaoke night, but you watch a musical called Fleets in Four Towers, which I absolutely love that. It's like the love story between a Quarian and a Turian, and then I think that's absolutely hilarious, but it's just amazing. And you actually get to meet Blasto in this DLC. Honestly, Blasto is one of my favourite characters in the whole franchise, just purely because of how
01:14:47
Speaker
it is but I'm amazingly stupid. It's like a really bad B action movie kind of person because if you listen to the adverts for his new film you can actually get I think it's about nine or ten minutes of like a full blast soul movie. Wow okay there you go. It's on YouTube, that's how I found out about it, but it is just so good because he has one of my favourite lines in the whole franchise where either an Elcor or a Volus or something that says, damn it, Blisto, you can't go in there. That Vortra has diplomatic immunity. And you hear him cocking the guns and he goes, this one will not use diplomacy then.
01:15:28
Speaker
Oh, that when I heard that I was clapping. I was like, this is peak writing. Why aren't we saying the Blasto after this? It's just so damn good. And you have a great scene where you actually get to be a cameo character in a Blasto film and you bring Javiq along. And oh, it's so funny because Javiq doesn't know what's going on. And Costo's trying to be the hero and everything. Upstage Shepherd, oh, it's just as so good. But then, flipping on that very light-hearted nature, you have Omega, which is it's a good DLC and it's really good to see Aria again, but once you do it, it just kind of ends, you know? like it's a really good DLC and it fleshes out at the story and whatnot. I feel as if it's one of the more constructed ones, but then you go from action to comedy to absolute horror with Leviathan Lee. You've got characters who are being indoctrinated not by the Reapers, but by a mysterious force, which turned out to be the forces that the Reapers are modeled off of. Am I right in saying that? Yeah, well, I think they create the initial AI, don't they that? Yeah. I just want to go back briefly to the Omega DLC. I don't overly enjoy it. I like Omega as a place. I like Aria as a character and it is great, so yeah, I just felt the DLC for that, just felt a bit by numbers, I think. Yeah. It didn't stand out and it for me anyway, it kind of outstayed its well or overstayed its welcome a little bit. Yeah I can't say I just disagree with you there because I like Arya as a character in 2 and 3 but I just kind of felt that once you got through the first half there was always something else that was like you fought through the Cerberus people okay cool beans. then you had to go to another place and then you had to choose between saving the civilians or saving yourself and whatever. And then you had another bit where you had to defend that Turian who after that Turian was critical. I don't know if they were hinting it was a love interest or just like a really deep friendship that they had between Aria and this Turian name I am completely blanking on, but Yeah, I do agree. I feel as if it was there for the sake of padding out the game and yeah, no, I agree. It definitely outstayed its welcome. I have to say I did feel that way a little bit about Leviathan as well at times. I don't know if you felt like that. Yeah, it's the initial bit where you're trying to hunt down, you know, you kept having to find the clues to it. Yeah, yeah, it did. I mean, it felt disjointed for how it starts off to where it ends up.
01:18:11
Speaker
Yeah because I mean the ending is absolutely fantastic but the unfortunate thing is as we said this is DLC so they are essentially written out of the plot really. If you complete it then you get Leviathan's as a lore asset but it doesn't matter because they don't really appear at the end since they get a key dimension when you're talking to the main villain at the end you're like Okay. But I do think as well, I think I said it at the start, I think this should have been part of the base game as well. 100%. Based on what it's telling you, you know, it feels like it should be in there. Because Leviathan and From Ashes have two of the most important characters. You know, you've got the genesis of the reapers there. You know, you've got the daddy reapers.
01:18:58
Speaker
as it were. And you've got Javic who was the last civilization to be claimed by the Reapers, so the fact that they weren't of it. Again, I don't know who decided it, why they decided it, but it did feel very odd that they wouldn't include it as part of the base game because it does. It's very confusing because you do see that they are able to nullify the Reapers and you're kind of like, Yeah I guess. Because I mean throughout the game you have to guide the Normandy through space and there's some areas where you have to run away from them which is very very annoying I have to say. I wasn't a big fan of that. Also can we not just say how great the sound of the reapers are when you're on the galaxy map?
01:19:39
Speaker
They're so good. So the Reaper sound design, give that man a raise, whoever or woman a raise, give whoever was involved a raise because ah the Reaper sound effect just the blah because that's what I absolutely love is that it's integrated into the theme at the very beginning of the game when you're leaving Earth and that is the title of the song Leaving Earth where it's this very somber melancholic song that plays and then it's just utterly intersected by the blob of the reaper and it is just horrifying to watch because you live on earth, I hope. You're seeing a very familiar place and you're just absolutely devastated by it I have to say again just because we're talking about it just a shout out for the soundtrack of the game. Don't often get invested too much in game soundtracks but it really goes with what you're seeing on screen.
01:20:38
Speaker
Oh no, it's massively, it's absolutely fantastic. Speaking of which, that leads us on to our final part of this discussion, which of course we're going to be talking about the ending and the controversy. Now, you might think I'm going to jump onto that spaceship, but I want to take it back just a little bit to when you come across the Sanctuary mission on Horizon. Again, that's a very horrifying mission where Cerberus are leading refugees in there, and you know, you think, oh, they're saving people and whatnot, but it turns out that they are indoctrinating them. Again, you get to see Kylen. I'm going to be honest, Kylen is just, oh, he's up there with Uddina for the most insufferable characters, but the most satisfying renegade prompts, because you can both dispatch Uddina and Kylen by using the renegade prompt
01:21:37
Speaker
And I have to say, I do it every time because Kylo Ren killed one of my favourite characters, but above beyond. i just I know we haven't really touched on them very much, but when you get to that stage where you have to go to where the elusive man is based and everything, and you know, he throws you on Thesia, I feel as if the problem is he just seems very OP because the story demands it, not because he's earned it. yeah You know, it feels very much like he's saying, oh Kylie, like even Anderson says, oh Kylie, he's very dangerous and everything and maybe he has in the books and the comics. But again, as you said perfectly before, this game should be able to stand up on its own to say this is the character that we've got. And I have to say what's quite funny is there's a mod, I don't know if you've seen this, that actually silences him.
01:22:30
Speaker
Yeah, and just put some masks on them so you don't really get to see them and they try to cut them out as much as possible, which I think is very, very funny. But it just seems, again, it's like the whole problem with Cerberus, they just feel very extra, don't they? That there's no need to go above and beyond when there's the reapers. But do you have any kylang before we go on to the finale finale? No, but I have got another question for you before we do go on to the finale. There's one other key bit that I want to ask what you do on it. Do you know what I'm talking about with Garris above the Citadel? The shooting competition. I let him have the shot. Yeah.
01:23:06
Speaker
This is the interesting thing, right? Because again, it's another great bit of the game. It's another great scene. I think that's a bit where Gareth says that James has taught him a human saying about may you be in heaven half hour before the devil realizes you're dead. I think that's it. And it's a great little bit between them. But it all depends on that. My gut instinct is to let him win. But if my wife is in the room, she's like, no, don't condescend him. You're good friends. You're Commander Shepard. You're supposed to be the best as well. She goes, if you let him win, you're just being condescended to him. And she's got a point. So if my wife's in a room, I have to win. If she's not, I'll let Gareth win. I mean, it goes back to your point that although these are digital characters, these are just code on the screen. Let's face it. But he gets so invested and he gets so emotional over it that you project all these emotions that they are conveying. And it's just is absolutely fantastic because even this is something I touched on in the previous episode, but something that I find absolutely amazing and beautiful. is the fact that you even get invested in the side characters, oh yeah where as the story progresses, they have different dialogue options and things. and you know You can't really interact with them directly, but you can overhear what they're saying. and The one that breaks my heart every time is in Mass Effect 2. When you go into Illium, there's this krogan who is trying to read poetry to the sari, and he keeps saying it in
01:24:31
Speaker
she eventually, I think you could convince her to take him up on it. But then that very same krogan ends up dying on the mission where you find the Racked Eye Queen in the third game and you have to go back and tell her that he's been killed and she's just absolutely distraught. It's absolutely horrific. And again, you've got other bits where it could be some miscellaneous, you're helping a guy through three games get his refund of five credits or something. but It's just so beautiful and it feels like a lived in and rich world where all of these characters have a place in their end. It is honestly just great but of course all good things must come to an end and of course we have one more thing to talk about and that of course is the very infamous and very controversial ending and I'm going to switch on to you first because I know you played these games long before I did and that's not a jab at your age by the way.
01:25:28
Speaker
Ah, out of curiosity, see when you first played the ending, what were your thoughts? Because I know you said that they added more into it, they lashed out a little bit, but what were your initial thoughts playing it? I don't remember having an issue with the ending ending as such. my issue and I said at the start my issue was purely that the game where all your decisions were going to count every decision you made mattered that yeah you had little catalyst kid ask you which door you want to walk through and for me that's what it was I don't know what I was expecting what I should have expected were we as fans being a bit too hard on it but it was built up that this was going to be the sum of all the parts that you've made throughout all three games I don't think I was necessarily on happy with it because I'm one of those people that yeah you go along for the ride it had an ending right it did get its ending so I don't think any of the options are particularly satisfying I don't think as a Mass Effect player you can be happy with any of the choices you have to make at the end. This is what I find very paradoxical about this game is the fact that, as we said, the intro very much personifies this as a very fast-paced action game. You know, you're going to go from point A to B, you're going to rush from here and there and meet other characters along the way. You're basically picking up your crewmates like Pokémon at this rate, but then also you're meeting the characters from the previous game like, for example, when you go to Grissom Academy and you meet Jack and I have to say, I teared up as well when I saw David from the Overlord DLC, and that made my heart happy. I have to say, but you saw them, and then you had to go to Palaven, you had to go to Tushanka, to Thesia, to all of these different places. It kept you going because it's like, this is a war. And you could tell especially, by the way, the the characters, especially your shepherd, was characterised because what I thought was interesting was that they seemed a lot more blunt
01:27:28
Speaker
with a lot of things and a lot more, this is what we're going to do and more just hell and things as opposed to the previous two games where they felt very much like a tabula rasa that you could write your own character on it but it felt as if for the re they were kind of ganging you more a little bit so you were getting less choice, which unfortunately would culminate in Andromeda. But again, next week, it's just it was very fast paced and everything. It was very keep going, keep going. And then after a bit of interjected between that, you had to these very weird, deadly Premonition-esque scenes where you were trying to chase the child that you could save. And see on the one hand, I totally get what they were going for. But I feel as if after the second or third running slowly through the forest it kind of outstayed its welcome. So when you actually got to meet the star child who was the, I want to say the AI that was behind it all, please tell me I'm writing that because the star child is a very confusing and scary concept. No, you're right. Yeah, I just want to say Andromeda. I actually don't mind Andromeda, but if you're playing it straight after the trilogy, it doesn't compare. It's okay, I'm not gonna hate it, but sorry, that's for another episode for you. Yeah, you kind of meet, like you said, the star child, right? And they tell you that you've got the three options to win the game with. And this is what I was saying, you know, we were saying about choose the door, your cornetto in the skit, right? That you could do destroy, control or symphony. Is this right? So destroy your destroying the Reapers, but it's going to destroy synthetic life. And I think the tech, like the mass relays, get destroyed. Control is where you merge, I think, with the Reapers. Don't use the controlling them. And synthesis is where you're going to merge all organic and synthetic life together. So ultimately, the battle ends. Now, I don't agree with any of those options almost, but what's the one you go for and why?
01:29:22
Speaker
Well, you did miss one fourth option. The refuse. Yeah, you shoot them in the face and they lose. If I didn't want to play this colour game with you, then yeah, you get the monologue from Liara saying, oh, we failed to stop the reapers. And I'm like, oh, dear. they're very horrifying but very funny anyway. In my first playthrough, I chose synthesis and I am completely with you there. When you are saying that you don't necessarily agree with the choices, I'm with you there. I feel as if they could have been
01:29:56
Speaker
better way to end this trilogy but at the same time the weight of this trilogy, it must have been such a daunting task to find a satisfying ending and I genuinely agree with you when you said that there, that it should have ended with Anderson and your shepherd just passing it away as you watch humanity triumph against the Reapers. Going off on that though, if I had to choose and I had to bend my arm, it would be synthesis that I went with. And I'm going to tell you why. Maybe this is very much reflective of the kind of sci-fi that I watch. I love a lot of Star Trek, I love a lot of Doctor Who and things where they always try to find the peaceful alternative. And the way I saw it and this is going to stoke the ire of a lot of people because a lot of people make the comparison of, oh you're no better than Sarin or oh you're no better than the Illusive Man or whatever. I feel there's a free will and self-determination that is a very important thing in this game and it's a theme that I don't think a lot of people really
01:30:58
Speaker
clock on to the whole game is essentially synthetic life versus organic life. And don't get me wrong, I know there's obviously that massive slap in the face context of you're literally fighting space and robot octopuses, or rather squids, whatever you want to characterise them as. But you know, you've also got the flip side where you've got the Quarians versus the Geth, and that is again another another ancient battle. And it's this idea that the Reapers have basically reduced all organic life to statistics and numbers, and this is the way that the u universe should be run and everything. And it's just such a horrifying way. It's a bit like Terminator. you know The Terminators don't see us for our individuality. They see us as just another statistic. So when it came to choosing from the three, I don't agree with destroy because a lot of people very much scoff at this and say, oh choose destroy because that's what Shepherd said they were going to do and the fact is you're not only killing the Reapers but you're also killing other artificial intelligence and granted you could probably rebuild from that, and that was what my worry was, that even though you destroy them today, you're going to have something similar pop up in the future. You know, you're still going to have reapers in maybe 50,000 years or even longer. And basically, the cycle is just going to repeat itself. The fact is, destroy is not a nice option because it's very brutal. You are erasing the problem. Whether you have the right or not, you are just erasing the problem. It's probably makes me not a nice person, but we'll guarantee that. I'd just be pure with the fact that it feels as if you're putting that band-aid on the situation rather than long-term fixing the situation, which I know that's the whole point. You're supposed to stop the reapers, but it almost feels like the la but not the lazy way out, but it feels like the easy way out. For control, I don't agree with it all because again, it goes onto that idea of autonomy and independence, the fact that you have done essentially what the innocent man was trying to achieve, but I just don't like the idea of being the new HAL 9000. Synthesis does have its problems before the Mass Effect cu community decided to shank me with their colour of choice of knives. I don't agree with the whole rewriting their DNA and things, but at the same time there is something quite nice about the end of it. Maybe it's a bit too sappy, it's so nice that they're all holding hands and fixing everything, but I feel as if it's almost necessary. because they've been given the opportunity to understand one another and to be able to communicate properly and try and establish this entire era of peace. And that's the thing, you know, in an ideal world that's the way things would go, you know, without the creepy glowing green eyes. I don't like that.
01:33:57
Speaker
I have to say, that's the only thing I'm like, ooh, the synthesis, but the fact is there has been this whole struggle between organics and synthetic life. And it starts all the way from the first game. The other core thing about this series of games is the fact that a lot of the choices and outcomes are purely determined by your ability to discuss and convince other people dialogue is such an important thing. And at the end of the day, the synthesis ending isn't won by killing and repeating the cycle, nor is it done by crushing the free will of anybody, but it's done by opening a dialogue for people to lay down their weapons and understand one another and hopefully build a brighter future. Now is it perfect? No. A hundred percent no. There's a whole moral quandary about rewriting DNA. Well this is where after two hours I think we're going to fall out finally. Oh! Go on! Okay.
01:34:55
Speaker
ah No, no, no, I'm kidding. No, sorry. And I jumped in it, but I kind of agree. Well, I kind of stick by what I said that none of these are suitable endings. And I've done all of them. I'll be honest, the amount of times I play, it I do cycle through them. I do like to try something different each time, not necessarily play the same. But what I would say is I really don't like the synthesis ending because you know You say it's about opening a dialogue and it's probably the nicest one, whereas I think the opposite. You are forcing all these beings to be something new and something else. I think it's going to end the Reapers and their cycle, but I don't think it's going to end wars because it's not like the battles in the galaxy are ah purely aimed at the synthetics between synthetics and organics. So I like what you're saying, I just don't think it's, like I said you are almost taken away, feels like free will and you are taking away autonomy because you are forcing everything to be exactly the same, that they are this combination and yeah I just think it's not going to end the battles. I think that's where it comes across as the most balanced one. I absolutely agree that because you're not destroying any one scene. But yeah, I just think it's just Shepard playing God at that. Well I guess he is in order all the endings ultimately, isn't he? But yeah, I just don't like the forced mixing of organic and synthetic life. I think that's the opposite of free will, isn't it? Because there's no choice there. Control is my least favorite one. It's the one I tend not to do. I've done it the ones just to try it. Again, ah it feels like a cop-out. It's like, oh, Shepard can be in control and everything's going to be great. What's to stop him after what? One, I don't want my Shepard, after all they've been through, to now just be controlling the Reapers for eternity. And what's to say that they're not going to go corrupt like you said, everything we've seen be controlled by them ultimately doesn't end well. And now you want Shepard is arguably the greatest soldier the galaxy's ever seen to be in control of them. Just feels like a recipe for disaster. So whilst it is almost the worst ending, I think this joy almost fits in. And I'm not going to say it's that's what Shepard wanted. It's the fact that, you know, I am sorry, synthetics will be created again. I think it's almost it's that way of bringing almost a bit of calm to the universe and I don't mean by getting rid of synthetics. That to me is I wish that wasn't one of the byproducts of this ending. It's almost like destroy the reapers, destroy the mass relays, which means the mass relay travel isn't possible for however many centuries. But it just feels like it's the way to resolve what's happening finally without either succumbing to the reapers or forcing, like I said, what my disagreement with the synthesis ending is. But it's it's a real sledgehammer to a walnut approach, right? The fact is, you know, poor Joker is going to be without Edie. And that's why I say I honestly dislike the ending because it's not giving me any closure that I want on the game, but I tend to do the destroy to get rid of the Reapers and knowing that full well synthetic life will be created again. That's what people are going to do. Like I said, there are awful things in each of them, I think. Just finish it with Anderson and Shepard and let the galaxy win and let that be the final hurrah, please. because what I found quite interesting and more was that if you get the perfect like this is if you get all the war assets because that's something we've not really expanded upon but throughout the game unlike the other ones you can do certain missions and get different factions to support you and that will be via numerical value which leads up to a total value for your war assets so for example you save a ship and then they'll support you in the lore effort or you do a particular mission, they'll support you in both though. But apparently if you get enough lore assets throughout the game, then if you do the perfect destroy ending, then Shepard survives. It cuts to the rubble and you can see them breathing and that heavily implies that Shepard has survived. Again, it contradicts itself because this whole game has been about sacrifice even when you're going into whatever colour of choice they are making. You have flashbacks to the characters that sacrificed themselves, you know, Morden, Thane, Anderson, all of these characters that sacrificed themselves for the greater good. To have them at the end being like, oh, shepherds alive and don't get me wrong, I would love that to be the case.
01:39:17
Speaker
but at the same time, it doesn't really give you much wiggle room with these endings and I totally know what you mean. As we said, there's not really one perfect ending, there's a mod right enough that give you a happy ending where Shepard survives, but beyond that it's amazing that it's been 12 years on and we haven't really had a game since 7 years ago with Mass Effect Andromeda and they have announced that Mass Effect 5 will be coming out eventually but there's not really been any further news on it so we don't know if it's going to continue the events of the Milky Way, if they're going to go in
01:39:55
Speaker
expand on Andromeda, I'm not sure. What I also think is confusing, this is just a really weird nitpick, but what I think is confusing about if synthesis is hinted at as being the canonical ending, but I don't know that for a fact, but if it was an ending that I aware wanted to push, do you not find it weird that the Andromeda Galaxy aren't affected by it? Nobody's affected by it, so fair point but going back to whether Shepard survived does make you think what they would think if they do survive because that's following the destroy ending and they've just wiped out all synthetic life and we know it was hard enough when he destroyed 300,000 Batarians right? Well, I mean, they didn't seem very sad about it. and Now they've taken out all since their life. You said it and I just want to go back to it because it's perfect. The game is about sacrifice and I think that's the thing with the destroy ending is a way to look at it. It's that massive sacrifice for that instance of Shepard thinks is right. I mean, you know, again, if we look at synthesis, I don't think it's going to end wars. I mean, throughout the game, you've got the Turian, the Salarians with the Krogan and the Genophage, right? Trying to almost not wipe them out, but really limit them. You've got the Krogan with the Rachni, right? like They want to wipe the Rachni out. I just think we're going to go in circles. But yeah, what you said is right is about sacrifice and all these endings are about what level there is. And back on your point, absolutely, it's going to be hard to retrofit that if they are going to go with synthesis, it's going to be hard to retrofit that in terms of Andromeda. Like I said, to be fair, I've only played Andromeda the once, but I don't remember seeing them all with glowy green eyes at the end of that. year Yeah, that would have been a very awkward conversation. Unless that's the cat you might never know, you know? For legal reasons, that's a joke by the way. Please don't take my kneecaps. Yeah, I can see why it's a controversial ending and I wanted to play this whole trilogy for myself and I'm really just seeing why people felt that way and after the experience in all three games, I can completely understand.
01:41:53
Speaker
people's frustrations and their annoyances. And honestly, as a kind of closing point, I genuinely love this series. I'm gonna be honest. I'm really pleased, I'm really pleased. Oh, honestly, as I said, I played this game years and years ago. I did not like it at all. I thought it was alright. I could rush through it just so I could say, oh, I played Mass Effect. And if it wasn't for yourself Dan, for Marie or for Luke, I never would have gone back to this. So first of all, thank you for that. But after playing The Legend of the Edition, I binged through the first game, went through all the lore of the DLC, did the second one, did the same there, did as much as I could for the third one. And while the third game is just
01:42:36
Speaker
maybe not as strong as people hoped it would be. I still think that this is an amazing trilogy. This is such a special time capsule of gaming where we have just got this absolutely amazing lightning in the bottle experience where we have these, as we said, characters that don't exist in real life. And I'm sorry, Marie, Paris doesn't exist. If you're listening to this, these characters aren't real at the end of the day, but they make us feel as if they're real. And that is the hallmark of just such a beautiful and emotional game series. And I could go on for another good couple of hours talking about the intricacies of certain things, the fact that you feel emotions by even just reading emails. I could also talk about other things I don't like,
01:43:24
Speaker
Ken or Gabi, who I mentioned last week about not really liking him in the third game because he turned out to be a bit of a
Mass Effect's Emotional Impact
01:43:32
Speaker
pervy creep. I don't know why, but you could honestly, if you had a podcast on this, you could go into certain characters and just you know deep dive into their backstories, the load of this universe and everything. And the fact that I am still looking into this universe through the extended media, through the books, through the comics. It is special and it's magical and every time I look at Mass Effect, I am going to look at the board pack and wait until for the smile and think this is one of the things that brought me closer together to you guys. So honestly, I can't thank you guys enough for reintroducing me to this amazing franchise.
01:44:08
Speaker
I really appreciate that because it's horrible if you make someone try something and then they don't like it because you feel sort of that you've made them try that and like they're never going to take a recommendation from you again. And when you love something so much, you kind of just hope everyone else can enjoy it. And I remember when you were putting tweets out, you were asking questions or there were a couple of people when I think maybe even been for Slade between two pods or whatever. If you were asking a question on Twitter, I'd always always say, what is the best game you've ever played and why is it Mass Effect? knowing that you hadn't played it and we need to get Slade to do that as well because he hasn't played it either and it's just great because the only reason I keep asking people to play it is because I just know if you get it it's gonna be brilliant for you. Now like I said at start, is it perfect series? No, each game I've got the criticisms about it. but overall it hangs together so well. Like I said, it's a story and the third game isn't the best game in terms of some of the action in it, but you're there because of the payoff for some of the relationships. I think the only other one randomly that I play regularly will be Bioshock.
01:45:10
Speaker
the Bioshock series. But again, there's an element of sort of relationships in that, right? But it's the only game, Mass Effect is the only game I will play each year and I have done and I will continue to do so. It's just a great series. So I'm really, really pleased you're into it. I mean, the one thing I will say is I don't envy your editing tasks for the next couple of weeks. I mean, I would rather take my chances out there with the podcast promoters floating in space right now, but yeah, you know what? Yeah, it's honestly going to be worth it though. This has probably been the longest we've recorded for... I mean, you and I, personally, this is the longest we've ever recorded for an episode, but also the longest that I've recorded per episode for themed months. By the time this episode comes out, this will probably be cut back quite a bit, but usually with these episodes, I always try to keep it under two hours max. But because of the passion that you've shown, the look showing and even Marie's showing. It's just honestly beautiful to see that you guys are so passionate about it and it really does show when you're talking about this because you can certainly tell if you were phoning it in, the end you know, if you're like, oh yeah that was kind of sad I guess. But you genuinely do care for this series and again that was the trepidation I had when I was going into this because I thought, god I hope I like this and I'm not going to be one of these outliers saying, oh It's okay, I guess, but I genuinely fell in love with this game because, well, not only because it's a great game series to begin with, but because you as well have fostered this community amongst us that we are able to support one another and talk about Mass Effect. And granted, you know, not all members of the Podpack collective have played this, but at the same time, I think it has been so worthwhile going through this adventure and, yeah,
01:47:01
Speaker
I cannot thank you guys enough so as a closing point Dan thank you so so much for joining me in this third day episode of Mass Effect month. Honestly, thank you for asking me to be part of it. It's brilliant. It's just been brilliant to talk about Mass Effect for this long. It was the longest episode yet probably. and As I said before, next week we are going to be taking a very interesting space cruise, let's just say, on the Hyperion and we are going to be jettison all the way over to the Andromeda Galaxy where we will indeed be reviewing Mass Effect Andromeda.
Podcast Wrap-Up and Future Plans
01:47:36
Speaker
it's quite a bit of sweet feeling right now. I have to say recording this because we were talking about this throughout the entire year saying we're gonna do this episode, we're gonna do that episode, oh what if we did this, what if we did that and before we started recording I was showing you guys the cover art for this and I was so excited about putting it out there so it's a bit of sweet feeling that I finally come to the end of the Mass Effect trilogy and being able to talk about it. and Don't get me wrong, I will probably reference it next week but yeah it's a bittersweet feeling that we've talked about this for so long and now it's happened. Well we'll do it again in five years. We can do the five-year anniversary of it just like the legendary edition of the game. We can do the legendary edition of this month. Well hopefully by that time Mass Effect 5 will have come out. Yeah.
01:48:27
Speaker
I'm still waiting, Bioware. Come on. Chop, chop. One The Slave is just such a fantastic series. And yeah, if you'll excuse us, we are going to jump into that celestial traffic light, as it were. Here's the question before we wrap up. Are you going to destroy the podcast promoters? Are you going to let them live in harmony with us? Are you going to control the podcast promoters? That's the other way they told you my answer to that. Have a nice day. I mean, I have to say, if it comes to podcast promoters, I'm right there with you. I mean, alternatively, you could shoot me in the face. but
01:49:02
Speaker
but But they're all about organic growth anyway. They don't care about the synthetics either, do they? Yeah, exactly. Synthesis doesn't work here. So yeah before we jump into the bright red light, as it were, where can these absolutely amazing listeners find your content? Yep. Just search for me across all the podcast platforms, search for casting views on there. And if you want to get hold of me on Twitter, it's at casting views. If you want to check out more Mass Effect Month episodes, as well as other Podpack collaborations with myself and Dan, then you can check us out on our website, Chatsunami.com, as well as all good podcast providers. I also want to thank our Panda Learning patients for supporting us this month, Robotic Battle Toasted and Sonya. Thank you so, so much as always for supporting the show, you guys are absolutely incredible, as are every single other Pandalorian patron out there and if YouTube would like to become a Pandalorian patron in the fight against the podcast promoters then YouTube can join us via our Patreon page at patreon dot.com forward slash chat tsunami where you can see a wide range of content from bloopers and behind the scenes stuff to exclusive content and indeed early access content so just check us out there. As I've said before though, this podcast is a prime member of the Podpack Collective, so for further information please feel free to check us out on Twitter slash X at our handle Podpack Collect and over on Instagram at Podpack Collective. But until next time, thank you so so much for listening to this episode. Stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly stay hydrated and please for the love of God do not choose control. Dan out.