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Episode 198: Rani Shah — Blue High Heels, Dude Hats, and Wisdom from a Humble Jellyfish
120 Plays5 years ago
Rani Shah is the author of Wisdom from a Humble Jellyfish: And Other Self-Care Rituals from Nature (Dey St.)
In this episode we dig into the sacrifices you need to create, balancing day jobs and art, imposter syndrome, growth mindsets, blue high heels, and dude hats.
Be sure you're subscribed wherever you get your podcast.
Get show notes and the monthly newsletter at brendanomeara.com.
Follow the show on social media @CNFPod on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.
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Transcript
The Myth of Success in Book Writing
00:00:00
Speaker
I think a lot of people think like you wrote a book, you made it. It's like, nah, dude, like you wrote a book. Let's see if someone buys it.
Introduction to the Creative Nonfiction Podcast
00:00:14
Speaker
Hey, CNFers, you know what time it is. It's the CNF, the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, the show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories, how they became who they are, and what they're working on. I'm your host, Brendan O'Mara. Hey, hey.
Guest Introduction: Ronnie Shaw
00:00:30
Speaker
Today's guest is the wicked smat, Ronnie Shaw. She's the author of Wisdom from the Humble.
00:00:40
Speaker
jellyfish and other self-care rituals from nature. It is published by Day Street Fun Talk. Great talk. But we'll get to that in a moment.
Engagement and Community Building
00:00:51
Speaker
Hey, are you subscribed up? Make sure you subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to head over to BrendanOmero.com. Hey.
00:01:02
Speaker
For show notes and to sign up for the monthly newsletter, reading recommendations, cool articles, and what you might have missed from the world of the podcast. This book and the newsletter are the IV drip that taps right into your veins, man. Of course, keep the conversations going on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.
00:01:23
Speaker
all that cnf pod i'd love to hear from you if you're digging the show consider taking a few moments to leave a kind review over on apple podcast all those reviews
00:01:34
Speaker
are super important. Also, this show, it only spreads if you think it deserves to spread. If I've made something good, please share it with someone you think will get something out of it. To quote Seth Godin, people like us do things like this. Isn't that right, CNFers?
Role of Editors and Submission Announcements
00:01:55
Speaker
And lastly, we all need editors, right? You hire a personal trainer to hold yourself accountable and to whip you into shape.
00:02:05
Speaker
Any trainer worth the title is in service of you, your health and your body. Same goes for a good editor. If nothing else, I'm here if you need that person to hold you accountable and to spot you during the heavy compound lifting. I'd be honored to serve you in your work. Just pop off an email and we'll get to talking.
00:02:29
Speaker
What else? What else? Gotta consider submitting your work to the audio mag. We're about two weeks out from the deadline. May 1st, social distancing essays from or on isolation. 2,000 words, 15 minutes tops.
00:02:46
Speaker
Hard deadline. Might extend it. That would make it a soft deadline. But I want to hear your work. Remember, writing for the ear. And we're going to do it. We're going to put out our first audio mag and see what happens. Got some submissions coming in. Need more. Need more. So come on. Email Creative Nonfiction Podcast at gmail.com. Submission in the title. I want your work. It's got to be good. It's got to be true.
Finding Your Writing Voice and Overcoming Challenges
00:03:17
Speaker
Well, do you really want to know how the memoirvel is going?
00:03:23
Speaker
I'm getting about a page a day done. Sounds better than it is since I'm basically retyping the old book, but uh, you know, spackling in holes and places, fixing the voice, varying the length of sentences, blah blah blah. I asked on Twitter how you would describe your writing voice. I said my writing looks like a melting wax statue of Charles Bukowski. Nothing sells books like that image man.
00:03:51
Speaker
But how would you describe your writing? The best note I received from my editor was, now don't get writerly on me. I might get a tattoo that says exactly that. I remember the days of trying to be writerly. Makes me gag. But that's how I got to be here, baby.
00:04:09
Speaker
Oh boy. Anyway, Ronnie Shaw is here. This was a fun one. She came to play ball right from the moment she picked up the Skype phone, so to speak. She came out the gate. It was great.
00:04:24
Speaker
I just love it when that
Ronnie Shaw's Journey and Inspirations
00:04:27
Speaker
happens. We talk a lot about her new book, of course, where she came from, about imposter syndrome, day jobs, surrounding yourself with people who will support your work, the sacrifices it takes to make creative work, and so much other great stuff. You're gonna love it.
00:04:44
Speaker
And when you're done listening to the show, think about pinging me on social or email and let me know what resonated with you about this particular episode. Sound good? Alright, let's do this. Let's do episode 198. I don't get asked this a lot.
00:05:11
Speaker
I think people get asked about where you grow up, but it's cool talking about your family. So I was born and raised in the suburbs of Chicago. And if you are from Chicago, everyone knows that if you grew up even within 40 miles of Chicago, you just say you're from Chicago. And so I grew up in the suburbs and growing up, I was obsessed with animals and nature and it was a very normal thing. I think at that age too, it was like,
00:05:41
Speaker
the era of the wild thornberries and Discovery Channel was like actually Discovery Channel and not like alien shows. And I just loved it. And that was like also so family friendly, right? Like watching Discovery Channel and animals. And so I think growing up, one of my like coolest memories is my dad is very techie. Like he actually is an engineer. And so he would buy these like super fun microscopes. And this was like,
00:06:11
Speaker
I mean, I grew up in the 90s. And so this was like, not when Amazon or the internet ordering was really a thing. And you could order these like, I just one small red, legit microscope that had like, you actually had a slide and like the plastic covers like put specimens and grass and whatever in there. And then as technology evolved, he ended up getting me this like,
00:06:36
Speaker
Not a toy, but definitely a children's microscope, but it was like an electronic one where you plug it into your computer and the image would show up on the computer. Like if you put a roly poly or whatever under this microscope. And I just remember that so vividly because our home was like, it was like a pretty small, modest ranch style house, but like our yard was really big. So we just had a bunch of these like funny plants and animals.
00:07:02
Speaker
kind of around. And so I think I've always been obsessed with like the outdoors and nature. My parents, I'm second generation Indian American. So they immigrated to the US in the late 80s, I believe, or early, early 90s. And then I was born shortly after and I think just
00:07:22
Speaker
Indian culture, science is definitely science and math are like coveted, right? And it's like, if you happen to get something else as bonus points. But I, you know, I always loved science. And so I eventually ended up pursuing a degree in chemical engineering in college. And that was very much like, it wasn't like out of passion by any means is very much just like, I knew I had an interest in like,
00:07:48
Speaker
policy and politics and journalism and film. Like that was definitely my interest, but like I came down to, oh, like if I need a job in four years, what would that be? And it was kind of like engineering was the choice. I'm like, I'll do chemi. Why not? Like I'll learn about chemistry and like to say I didn't enjoy it is an understatement, but I did it. Like I finished it. And I think with that, well, I think while pursuing something,
00:08:17
Speaker
you think is the right thing. But while also pursuing it, you realize it's not the best thing for yourself. You start seeking out things that are good for you. And I naturally drifted towards humor and a lot of policy stuff. I was really heavily involved in student government, and especially just parts of science I enjoyed. I feel like when you're in an academic setting,
00:08:44
Speaker
It can, you know, it's really easy to like fall out of love of subjects because suddenly you're challenged, which looking back is actually a great thing. Like you should be challenged, but at the time I started seeking out like parts of science I loved and that was still biology. And after college, um, I actually never pursued being becoming an engineer. I just did a bunch of odd jobs. Like I was in a startup for a bit and I moved to Seattle for some time working as a marketing intern, then a manager, and then,
00:09:12
Speaker
I kind of fell into this world of writing and content, and I've had my own blogs on the side. They're all kind of like a twinge on the side of like informal, humorous, but like there's usually some sort of like lesson in it. So whether I'm talking about culture or I write a lot of satire, I've always loved expressing myself in this way. And so I really just fell into this in terms of my upbringing.
00:09:41
Speaker
but I think the common thread was always like, I absolutely adored the outdoors in nature. And that's like my favorite thing to talk about. Oh, that's great. And what did, what did your mom do? My mom, Oh my God. My mom's so important. I forgot to mention my mom. Um, so yeah, my mom, uh, my mom, um, growing up, she worked at a bank. She was a bank teller for some time. By the time that was like the doc, the job du jour, it was like, got good hours. Like it came back home and then,
00:10:10
Speaker
Um, my brother and I were growing up, she was a stay at home mom and she was like, she is and was incredible. It's cause like, so in Indian culture, it's very common for like either your parents once they're older and like, can't take care of themselves too much, or your spouse's parents to live with you. And, um, growing up my, both my grandparents live with me. So it wasn't just her staying at home, taking care of two children, just taking care of two senior citizens as well. And, um, my dad was working.
00:10:38
Speaker
Um, at the time he was working as like a computer tech, so he'd literally just drive around the city of Chicago and like go to random businesses. I needed to like help with fixing a printer or a computer. Um, but my mom, whether she's at the banker at home, she was like taking care of my grandmother who was paralyzed from the waist down and, um, also taking care of her own parents who lived like maybe 10 minutes away from us, but they were much healthier and like, I mean, they're still around, but they're, there's just, there's much healthier. So she just like.
00:11:08
Speaker
was the mainstay of the family. Like if my mom wasn't there, like my mom literally taught me how to read. So she's like kind of really important for me. And so yeah, my mom, and then actually once we were in high school, um, she opened up her own flower store. So for 10 years she was a florist and my first job was being a flower delivery girl because I was not good enough to arrange a flower arrangement. So I was a cent to drive away and deliver, which is great.
00:11:37
Speaker
you got tips sometimes. But yeah, my mom did a bunch of creative work, which is where I think I get it from.
Turning Points and Career Realizations
00:11:43
Speaker
And I like too that she she put you in a storytelling class when you were when you were 11 years old. So what was what was that experience like? And how formative was that? It was so formative. So with my parents, like, as much as I like
00:12:00
Speaker
I make fun of them to their face. It's not like I'm talking about it back. I always joke with them like, oh, South Asian Indian parents. We all have this trope that we always make fun of our parents with. But I think my parents were very innovative in the fact that growing up, we were very middle class. We didn't have a lot of money. We drove everywhere.
00:12:22
Speaker
No planes, nothing. So just to give a picture, but one thing they did spend money on was these really weird classes for my brother and I. Like I was put in a ceramics class. I was put in ice skating class. I was, my dad put me in an HTML class and like, it was so cool, but the storytelling class I was. I want to say in middle school or like entering middle school and my mom would always find these like courses from random magazines and it was in the local middle school.
00:12:53
Speaker
And it was, I want to say like eight like students and they're all between the ages of like 11 to 13. So really awkward age, right? Like to be told like, here's like eight strangers. And the whole curriculum was you need to choose a story from like a set of books. This teacher had chosen and you have to memorize a story. And like the whole class is about how to speak it, like how to share this,
00:13:21
Speaker
memorized story in a way that is entertaining for others. And little did I know that class is something I became sort of obsessed with after because I was like, wow, I felt like it was a superpower. And I vaguely remember the story because I remember my grandmother would make me recite it because she was so excited I was taking this class. And it was about this like boy who found this magic pearl or something. And it changed like the
00:13:51
Speaker
changed something about the time momentum spectrum or something. It was a really fun story. And I remember in that class, like the whole idea of pausing and then emphasizing and not just memorizing. And so that class was really cool. I don't think my mom realized how that class kind of like sparked something, but it definitely made me want to be a better speaker and just better chair, I think. I think in my family, the most
00:14:21
Speaker
I think the biggest trend in my family is we're very loud and there's a lot of storytellers and so I've always wanted to be one of the people who could capture a person's attention. Did you experience any kind of pressure from your parents as you had an affinity for maybe for writing and storytelling? Parents often want their kids to go to something that
00:14:49
Speaker
feels more stable, whether that's, you know, law school or medical school or being a chemical engineer, you know, something that feels stable. But as you had an affinity for storytelling and writing, was there any trepidation on their part or did they nurture that for you? They nurtured it, I think, until it came to the point of making a career decision. I say that because my entire life I've made videos and written stories and I think every friend's birthday I made some sort of sketch or skit
00:15:19
Speaker
They nurtured that heavily, like as a child and as high school, and even once I was in college, like as a side hobby, this was very encouraged. But when it came to where are you going to college? What are you pursuing? It was very much, there was definitely a pressure. It was, you know, like, if you're gonna, if you're gonna be a lawyer, like here's, here's the path. Or like, even when I was applying to colleges, I only applied to universities that had a, like,
00:15:48
Speaker
healthy engineering program or healthy pharmacy program. I was actually going to be a pharmacist for like a hot second. And, um, that was, uh, I think not just me, I think a lot of like children and students and like my community feel that pressure and they didn't get to know it is getting much better because there are like people who, you know, look like me and, uh, who didn't pursue a traditional trajectory. Like you have like the Hassan Minaj's Mindy Kaling's you have the people who,
00:16:18
Speaker
pursued something very non-traditional, but made it really big and just not about, it's not about the fame, it's about stability, like you said. So I think it's easier now, but there was a heavy pressure for me. And looking back, would I have chosen Kemi again? I don't think I would have. I think I really would have loved to done a writing program or a film program, but what being kind of pushed into a,
00:16:46
Speaker
profession or program taught me was that if you do enjoy something, don't stop doing it on the basis of I don't have time or it's not, you know, it's not a focus of mine. Like still continue doing it. Okay. I think at the end of the day, whether you're taking an engineering exam or in a lab, there's always room for a story. There's always room for learning a new skill. So totally pressured into it. Not going to like sugar coat that, but
00:17:15
Speaker
I think depending on your mindset, you can really flip it around and learn something. So not the worst. Well, take us to that moment of maybe clarity on your part when you realize that you wanted to be more of a creative person in a writing kind of way. What was that moment like? And maybe what was that conversation you had to have with the people who maybe didn't want you to take that career choice?
00:17:44
Speaker
I think it happened for me later in life. For my parents, they're super supportive. And for them, as long as I had a way to support myself, they were happy. They didn't care what that was. And so after college, I joined a startup. And then that led to an internship and a really great job in Seattle. And so through all of this, they were very supportive. Yes, it wasn't an engineering job. But hey, it was a job that paid a salary. And so no trepidation. I think the moment
00:18:14
Speaker
I wanted to make the switch to create it. Like when that switch in my mind actually happened, kind of remember I was in the kitchen in my apartment in Seattle and it was like 2016 and I was still working this marketing job. And I told my parents like, Hey, I've been writing a lot more. I kind of want to pursue it. I think I'm going to move to New York in a year and just see how it goes. Like I have a marketing job right now. I think after a year's worth of experience, I can get something.
00:18:44
Speaker
And they were like, okay, like they were, they weren't upset or anything. It's not like I was waiting for their permission. Like, and then they know that they know I was going to do whatever felt right. And they're like, okay, cool. Like didn't want to take me seriously. But then. I think five months after that phone call, I ended up being laid off from that job from this really stable job that I thought was like, like a given, you know, I'm like, I said to work here for a little bit and a bit of New York and other job and.
00:19:12
Speaker
That's not at all what happened. So being laid off was not only the switch, but like the push, like I got pushed over a cliff to pursue what I wanted to do. Cause I was like, okay, like now it's a matter of where do I want to go? And, uh, I ended up freelancing as a content writer for like small brands and starting my own blog, um, called fuss class views. It's like a South Asian satire.
00:19:37
Speaker
Um, blog and I was like totally a fun thing that I started, but it started gaining a lot of traction to the point of people I'd meet would be like, Oh, like you, you have that blog. Like I've heard of it. And that was just so cool to me. It gave me like this again, validation that I'm not a terrible writer. Like it still wasn't, I'm a good writer. It's like, I'm not terrible. So that's great. And so.
00:19:59
Speaker
Being laid off was that moment. And I remember at that time it was very stressful and my parents were in Chicago. I was in Seattle and everything just felt far and scary. And I remember my dad vividly saying, listen, I trust you. You've never listened to me before. So don't make this the first time. Do what feels right and it'll work out. And that was like the first time I think I felt like, okay, yeah, you're right.
00:20:27
Speaker
And I ended up moving to New York a couple months after. It's a freelancing experience in my pocket and worked some odd jobs, ended up at the company I'm at right now. And, um, it all led to this book. And so I think the switch was really just more of a kick in the ass, which was you don't have a job. You need to figure out a way to make an income. And that was through writing and creativity for me.
00:20:49
Speaker
That's amazing. Once you had that kick in the ass, what was your playbook so you could start to accrue those clips and land pitches and start to make some income as a writer? What were those moments like? Oh my God, those moments were so scary. Okay, I'll give you an anecdote that comes to mind of the many.
00:21:19
Speaker
the time, and there is still there is a dating app. It's called Billmill, which in Hindi translates to heart find. And it's basically just Tinder for South Asians. And so at the time, I was very single, I was like on a lot of dating apps. And Billmill caught my eye just because I was like, Oh, this is kind of an interesting concept. And I looked at their marketing at the time, now they are like, so polished and great. And
00:21:47
Speaker
At the time, they were really early on. I'm like, I don't like how their stuff looks. I don't like how their social media looks. I think their blogs could be better. So I literally just started surveying my friends who I know are in dating apps, including this one. And I made a Google survey and just asked a bunch of questions based on brand and look and style. And I sent these survey results
00:22:14
Speaker
to like a contact at this dating app that I found online. And I just wrote them like, here's what people think about how you guys look and feel. I think you have a lot of potential, but I think you do better with me. It was a very cocky email, but I felt really good about it. Cause there's two things I know, I know really well, which is South Asian culture and like snarky humor. Those are two things I know I can like master a bit.
00:22:45
Speaker
So it was really funny, kind of like cocky email, like, I think I can help you. Let me know. I'd love to talk to you. And it worked. And the email made back and that was my first like, I'm doing air quotes, you can't see client. And I say that because I don't really know what that was at the time. I'm like, Oh, I got a gig. I remember calling them and negotiating like how much money I'd be making. And I was so nervous.
00:23:11
Speaker
So I put on a pair of like my favorite like shoes, like high heels, just to feel more confident on the phone. Because I was so nervous about this. And that was the start. That was where it began. And I was like, okay, start sending cold emails to different brands, like voice differently, right? Like I can't be the same snarky person I was with a dating app. But it slowly but surely started working. And a lot of it was also asking for help
00:23:41
Speaker
Right. Like I think we underestimate that asking people in my network for help and connections. Like I, I personally would be nowhere without my network. Um, with people introducing me and, you know, referring me. So that was a big break. Um, there's a lot more stories like that, but that one
Literary Inspirations and Writing Techniques
00:24:02
Speaker
comes to mind. Can I remember those blue high heels I wore just to negotiate making a few bucks on a blog piece.
00:24:10
Speaker
And, and so as you, as you start, you know, progressing there, what else are you, or who else are you reading as, as inspiration to, as inspiration for you to, uh, you know, continually build your sort of creative muscles? You know, who are those people you were returning to? Oh, wow. What a good question. Okay. So again, sounds very nerdy, but when I was younger, reading was a big thing in my house, like, um,
00:24:37
Speaker
Highlights Magazine, Reader's Digest. Reader's Digest, I feel like, has a reputation of being an old person magazine, but I loved Reader's Digest as a kid. Like, I'd be eight years old, absorbed in a Reader's Digest, and a writer I would kind of recognize sometimes, largely because her last name was so unique, would be Mary Roach, and she would write
00:25:03
Speaker
kind of in the back of the magazine. It'd be like a one pager and it was usually something kind of quirky. It was either usually about an animal or it'd be a funny story. Um, I just liked her writing style and the topics she chose each time were just really fun. You know, even as a child, I like liked it. And so as I got older, I didn't think about Mary Roach for some time, but then she started writing books.
00:25:29
Speaker
And she wrote, she has one about like dead bodies. She has one about tastes. Like she has three books out right now and I've read all of them. And her style is so easy to understand, but she also like, she knows her shit. Like she has researched things and expresses them in a way they're so like inspiring. And that was always in the back of my mind. Like I want to be that kind of writer. Like,
00:25:59
Speaker
I can engage an eight year old reading readers digest or like a young adult or an adult reading like her actual novels about science and like humans. And so Mary Roach comes to mind and then a recent inspiration. Um, I just finished this book called educated and it's like, it's a huge, it's a huge book right now. Like I Tara Westover and like, yes, she like went to Oxford and has like,
00:26:26
Speaker
She like went to Harvard. She's like crazy accomplished and I'm never going to be on that level. But the way she writes, I think, um, you forget how many pages you've read because it's very JK Rowling-esque where it's like highly descriptive, but also like in the descriptions, a story happens. And so she has written a memoir of her life. Um, but it's about memories. And so it does read more like a story and that's something I have not done. I have not written.
00:26:56
Speaker
a story, whether it's fiction or like a childhood event. I write a lot of like facts, like here's how this is working. Here's what's happening. It's like this middle ground between opinion and journalism. It's not really like a report, but it's also like not really a story. And so I want to get better in writing stories in terms of like when I was little, this happened or a fiction. I think fiction is like the toughest thing in the world to write well and
00:27:26
Speaker
Um, that's my next goal. Like as we are all kind of quarantine indoors, I'm trying to understand dialogue and, um, scenery and, you know, how do I evoke an emotion from a scene? Um, by trying, I mean, I miss reading a lot of books. I haven't actually written anything, but I'm noticing that's like a weak spot. So stay tuned. Hopefully I come out with something like that soon.
00:27:53
Speaker
And with regarding that, of course, is you have to get comfortable writing bad stuff to get the good stuff.
Balancing Work with Creative Writing
00:28:01
Speaker
So in a sense, how have you, in the writing you've done, even though you haven't done some of this more novelistic type of writing, even if that delves into memoir and that kind of scene building and world building,
00:28:18
Speaker
Um, you know, how do you, you know, come to the page unbridled so you can, you know, just kind of get those words out and then refine later. Wow. Okay. So my favorite kind of quote, I don't know if it's a quote, but someone said it and it's, um, you know, if your first draft isn't shit, you're doing it wrong.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah, Anne Lamott, she's big on shitty first drafts. So it could be loosely based on her. I would love to give her credit for that. And I think that's, I know you asked, you asked a really good question. I'm giving a very simplistic answer. I think it's just like, make that shitty first draft and then talk to somebody you trust and like love because
00:29:07
Speaker
feedback for writing is really hard and like, you're likely going to get mad at that person. So make sure you really like them because like, you know, like writing feedback can make or break a friendship. And so I think just start like, just do it, make it bad, you know, just, but make it bad to make it intentional, like make it so that if whoever's editing it understands what you're going for, you know, even if it's like, it's terrible as like, Oh, the red house was cool.
00:29:32
Speaker
That's fine. Like write that down and like, then the editor will understand, Oh, you're trying to express how this red house was actually really cool. Here's how we could do it. And, um, yeah, second to that, finding people you can trust. I'm really lucky in that. Like I work in a marketing branding site, you know, my day job, I work at a company called Trello and my team, it has like incredible writers, like of different types. And so early on.
00:30:00
Speaker
part of our training was like, here's how to take feedback and here's how to give feedback when it comes to editing. Um, and that has been so helpful in just finding who you trust and finding parts in other people's writing that you think can improve. Um, but again, sharing feedback empathetically. And so yeah, starting that shitty first draft, you just got to start, it will improve. Um, it's like riding a bike. You're going to fall a lot, but you'll be better in a couple of weeks than you were.
00:30:29
Speaker
before, so there's hope for everyone. And I love that you brought up that you have a day job too, and then you're able to thread some other creative work around that. I think there's often, and I like talking about that on the show, because I think a lot of people think that everyone who's got a book, that's their thing, that's their gig. They're just making it, they're killing it, or just writing books, writing the occasional article here and there.
00:30:56
Speaker
But the fact is a lot of people are finding ways to subsidize this creative habit. And the hope is, of course, that maybe someday that it will, in fact, support you. But it's so great to hear you just say, yeah, I work here at Trello. So how have you been able to balance your day job, your obligations there so you don't lose your job? And then, of course, do the creative work that also nourishes you. Totally. OK.
00:31:26
Speaker
I totally agree with what you said. Like I think a lot of people have this perception of like, Oh, you wrote a book. It's like what you do or like you write blog articles. That's what you do. Like nothing could be further from the truth for a lot of people I know who write like most content writers are not writing just for one site. They're like selling their talent to so many sites and doing so many side gigs. So kudos. People work so hard. Um,
00:31:50
Speaker
As for books, same thing is not publishing is a rough and tough world. Like I did not, I know, I knew nothing about this going in. And I think a lot of people think like you wrote a book, you made it. It's like, nah, dude, like you wrote a book. Let's see if someone buys it. And then maybe a person buys it and maybe it's like halfway decent. And then maybe if you're lucky, you get a second book and then maybe if you're lucky, somebody buys a second book. And so it's like, it just,
00:32:17
Speaker
is a lot, like just getting this book done doesn't mean anything. Um, it means something clearly, but it's not like you're JK Rowling now. Like, no, like nobody's JK Rowling and, um, having a day job, you know, for me, I think I am so lucky. Like my job helps me nurture my creativity. Um, I think being on a brand team, I think it's all about
00:32:43
Speaker
being emotionally in tune, understanding how people are thinking and feeling and how the words you're writing and putting out into the world are being felt. And that is largely my job in like a high level. So I've been kind of, you know, I'm surrounded by that ethos every day. And then it's also being lucky enough to have a team that supports creativity and encourages it. So I totally have that. Like I really adore,
00:33:13
Speaker
where I work. And so again, lucky and everybody loves their job. Um, so lucked out on that. And then the second point, and when I kind of do pursue my side interests, um, I see it as it's, they help each other, you know, like doing my fun writing on the side helps me be a better employee for where I work because like now I have new ideas and vice versa, where I work writing, editing nearly every day.
00:33:39
Speaker
helps me be a better writer on the outside. And so I have a nice symbiotic relationship. And I think also just expressing how you need a creative outlet. My fiance actually met on that dating app that I worked for a long time ago. Fun fact. So he knows that when I'm stressed or upset or just bored, he will suggest, why don't you write something?
00:34:09
Speaker
or do something. And yeah, if I'm like not in the mood, I'll tell him, but a lot of the times he's right. Like he's spot on and it's like, I'm like, yeah, like you're right. I should just do something and I will. And, um, it's having people around you who understand that you need that creative outlet and encourage it. So I think encouragement is a huge thing, like whether it's your personal sphere or your professional sphere, like if you don't feel encouraged or motivated, it is so difficult to sit down and do the damn thing. And,
00:34:39
Speaker
It sounds like, oh, just find a cafe and do it, but not everybody has an agency to do that. So finding people in your life, whether they're right next to you or across the country to text you, call you, encourage you to do the things that you want are so crucial and like kind of hold you accountable. Like find a writing group or start a blog where you told yourself you'll do something once a week, twice a week. Um, it helps. It's not a,
00:35:07
Speaker
solution, it just totally helps to know that there are people rooting you on. And I tell this to everybody, if you don't think you're good at what you're pursuing, or you don't think you're ready, realize there's somebody else out there on the internet who's not as good as you, but doing better than you just because they've tried. And so I tell myself that like, you know, people first have your, you know, like your
00:35:37
Speaker
cheerleaders around you and second, just try, you know, if you're feeling down, like there, there's no harm. It goes back to the first draft of shit thing. There's no harm. It's okay. So I said a lot, but finding your support system. Yeah. I think that's a big thing, whether it's at work or in your life. I think that's huge.
00:35:54
Speaker
I'd love to talk about the notion of sacrifice with respect to creative work. And to do this, if you wanna get in better shape, you're gonna have to maybe give up beer or something for a little while if you wanna get in better shape or whatever your vice is. And likewise, if you really have that inkling to write a book or a good essay or an essay collection or anything, start a blog,
00:36:22
Speaker
You're gonna have to tell your friends, you know, I can't go out Friday night, I gotta do some writing, or I'm gonna have to get up at an hour earlier in the morning to get some of this work done. And I think people don't talk about those sacrifices you have to make to
00:36:39
Speaker
Do fulfilling creative work so i wonder you know for you how have you built in. What are you sacrificing so you can do the creative work you want to do and do something that ends up turning into you know say you know wisdom of a from a humble jellyfish. That's a great question i'll be honest like the last couple of months.
00:37:00
Speaker
I've been kind of paused on the creative work. I'm just enjoying this book process. I'm excited about releasing. So I've kind of told myself, I'm going to take it easy for a bit. But when I get back into it, and while I was writing this book, that is so spot on. So when I wrote this book, I had a job. I had a full-time job. People helping me pay the rent.
00:37:25
Speaker
So it wasn't like I could wake up on a Wednesday, like go to my beautiful balcony and like sit like it is not romantic. Like whoever is telling you like writing a book is like F Scott Fitzgerald like smoking. It's not it is like such a hard it's like working out and it was a routine and I am not that good at keeping to a routine to be honest, unless I have objectives and a book writing
00:37:55
Speaker
like writing a chunk of stuff helped with that and so a lot of it was making a routine like okay after work I'm gonna go exercise so I don't feel sleepy and then I will work for you know three hours or four hours or whatever until this library or cafe or co-working space I was at closed like that was my indication of I'm done for the day when the space I was in physically shut down and
00:38:24
Speaker
That was a big part of it. And a lot of it was also like telling my friends like, okay, I'm free one day this week. That is when I can hang out. And it didn't work for everybody, but that's okay because the friends who it did work for I saw and the friends who it didn't understood. And so that was a sacrifice. But so I, I live in Brooklyn, live in New York, and it's all about going out with friends and meeting up like, you know, our apartments are too small to hang out in.
00:38:52
Speaker
So that heard a bit because you want to see people and you want to engage. And I think it's important to also at times make the sacrifice of putting your project on a pause to see the people you love. Like if that's what reenergizes you, if that's what gives you inspiration, give yourself permission to engage in that. That's okay. That's not a failure, but just make sure you're hitting
00:39:20
Speaker
the goals you need, make sure you're getting what you want because the biggest thing I got from talking to more people was ideas. I had coworkers coming up to me, I had family talking to me about like, oh my God, did you hear about like how lions do this? Or oh my God, this one shrimp is so cool. And I'd be like, what, that's awesome. Like, and so I would just get inspiration from people. And so give yourself space to hang out with people. I don't think it's like healthy to like put yourself in this cave and just focus on one thing. Like,
00:39:49
Speaker
you need to diversify, you need to find inspiration. So for me, that was a big thing, like managing both social and work, and then having just a system, because I think for a book, you need multiple places to put ideas, right?
Organizing Writing Projects and Evolution of the Book
00:40:07
Speaker
So like for my book, it is a nonfiction around animals, but there's also a huge self-care angle, which means that I have to not only find animals, but I have to like find their research,
00:40:19
Speaker
all the like facts and factoids, like backed up by papers. And then I had to have a section somewhere in my life where I would like write down a self care component. So that meant finding a way to store that information. So I made a Trello board, which is like an organizational, maybe I work in Trello, but Trello is a free tool and then it's like an organizational
00:40:40
Speaker
um, like software that you can use, like put your ideas in. So I made a Trello board to like organize these things and having this method helped me balance a lot. Um, and it wasn't just scribbling in notebooks. It was like, I had a list of facts. I had a list of self care tips and they kind of like helped me visualize. So my routine, my social life in my organization is what saved me and what was a product of this book. Um, and,
00:41:09
Speaker
Also, once your friends know you're working towards something, if they're good friends, this sounds so mean, but if they're good friends, they will encourage you. Be around people who are going to ask you, how's your book doing? And if you're like, okay, then you shouldn't be here. That's a good friend. That's a person who's looking out for you or find yourself. Again, my fiance is great. He's like,
00:41:34
Speaker
He would, he'd be like, hi, hello. How was your progress? If he would keep tabs on me in like a really friendly and encouraging way. So finding people who will hold you accountable is nice. Um, and not just get mad at you for not showing up to happy hour that day because that happened, but it's okay.
00:41:52
Speaker
So how did you arrive at this book and to wanna do these like micro-profiles of animals that have this little, the embedded in their animal behavior through millions and eras of evolution, have this self-care component that you could tease out to our own lives? How did you arrive at this? That's such a good question. So originally this book was actually a blog post.
00:42:20
Speaker
I wrote a blog post about nature and productivity routines. And so that was around, um, bees and like, basically what do animals do in the wild that like promote their productivity or they're like longevity and what can we learn from it? And so that blog posted really well, it blew up a bit. And then an editor approached me and it was actually a collaboration. So it's not like I woke up and like, wow, I must write about this. This is my life.
00:42:50
Speaker
Um, it was highly a collaboration. It was an editor approaching me saying, I absolutely love the way you've tied productivity in nature. What do you feel about tying to something else? I'm like, okay. So we could, we were talking for a couple of weeks and we arrived at this notion of like self-care. And at first I honestly, like be brutally honest, like, uh, I scoffed and like, okay, self-care like.
00:43:15
Speaker
So, so like, you know, it's like what Instagram influencers talk about. And I did my own research. And I'm like, you know what, right? It's like, Oh my God, like base mask on like, okay, I don't think I really don't care. And I did some research and I'm like, okay, wait, this is actually really kind of interesting. And even in the book, I write about self care and like,
00:43:38
Speaker
We need to get rid of this notion that self-care is to like treat yourself, get yourself like a hundred dollar manicure. Like it's not what self, it can be if that's what makes you feel better. But self-care is this thing. Like I definitely have like some sort of anxiety whenever like, you know, like in life, like anxious a lot and learning how to take care of myself has helped alleviate that. And self-care is truly just understanding what you need in order to be
00:44:07
Speaker
whatever you want to be, whether I want to be a better partner, I want to be, I want to be a better, like, you know, I want to be a better parent, whatever, like, it's about taking care of yourself so that those around you and things around you also flourish. It's not a selfish thing is selfless, like giving yourself that, you know, giving yourself those 30 minutes a day to exercise.
00:44:31
Speaker
It is not selfish to give yourself that because you know, it's gonna make you better. It's gonna make you live longer. It's gonna make you there for your family longer. And so talking about this notion that this is not about throwing out a face mask. This is not about buying yourself something. It's truly deeper than that. Then I'm like, okay, I can take this seriously. Like this is something that as a society, as Americans, I feel like we just,
00:44:57
Speaker
we tend to burn out. Like burnout is so just everywhere. Like it's just not a new thing anymore. And I've been burnt out so many times in my life, it sucks. I'm like, okay, like as an adult, as I progress in my life, how do I not do this? And so I thought about this in my own sense a lot, but then with this book, when we started talking about self care, I'm like, okay, you know what? Self care is very new to me. I did a quick Google. I think I feel good about
00:45:24
Speaker
Relating it back to this topic that I think has been misconstrued. And so that's how we got to it. And it was not easy to be honest. Excuse me. It was not easy to tie back a lot of these animals, um, at first, but then once I did more research on like what doctors and psychologists kind of like, you know, things like growth mindset or limit Leo and like things like that where it's like.
00:45:51
Speaker
Learn from your mistakes. Don't let a failure define you. Things like that. It was easier to find natural phenomenon that does support that mother. And that's what was so fun. Talking about how certain animals fail a lot. Like leopards and lions, they don't make most of their kills when they're hunting. Not even 50%. It's really hard for them to hunt.
00:46:21
Speaker
but they go on, you know, nevertheless, they thrive and they go on. And it's about what about that can we learn for ourselves? Like, why is it for us? If we fail once, we're like, we stop. Like what's going on there? And it is natural to fail. And so I think a lot of the self-care things came from that.
Lessons from Nature: Overcoming Fear and Failure
00:46:40
Speaker
Long discussions and coming to a point where, you know what? No one's done this before. I love talking about animals and self-care is very new to me. And so while writing this book,
00:46:50
Speaker
A lot of the research came out from writing this book, and so I think it came out from this book a lot better, to be honest. Stressed while doing it, but less stressed after finishing it. Yeah, just thinking of any number of animals in the animal kingdom, if you accidentally kick over an ant hill, what do they start doing? They collect the eggs, and then they start rebuilding the ant colony.
00:47:17
Speaker
You know, they don't even think about it. They just do it. And same with spiders. You know, if you break their web, they're like, shit. And they start making a new web. It's it's a great, great points that you're that you're making. And you said, like, they keep going, but we tend to stop. So sometimes. So why do you think we stop? Oh, wow. I have thought about this so much. OK. I don't think I can speak for everybody, but I think for me, in my experience, I think
00:47:46
Speaker
me and many people I know, I think we stop because we're afraid of what will happen if we fail again. And that is the biggest thing. We don't stop and think like, what if we succeed again? A lot of people do that. And that's probably why they're successful. But I think a lot of us, we don't have the encouragement. So a lot of us are maybe we're surrounded by people that, you know, really just demonize failure and
00:48:15
Speaker
this could go back to culture as well, right? Like even the way I grew up, oh, like, you know, you're not like even pursuing engineering. What if you fail? What if you don't get a job if you pursue creative writing, you know, it's that scary, what if we go to the worst case scenario, which is this very biological for us, right? Like fight or flight, like what are we going to do? And a lot of it's society based. It's like, oh, what will people think what's going to happen? And I think,
00:48:45
Speaker
these are all very fair concerns. I'm not saying drop, don't quit your job. Don't go nuts. It's okay to be scared of failure, but it's not okay to let failure define your next steps. Just because you're scared of something doesn't mean you need to let it control your decisions. Continue being scared of it. That's fine, but still pursue what you're trying.
00:49:14
Speaker
Like anything, don't do the same thing twice. It's OK. Change up the way you're doing it. You can figure it out. It goes back to there are people out there way less talented than you might be. But just because they're trying, they're succeeding. That should give you some agency. Let me try this. And in the animal kingdom, I think failure doesn't matter because it's like a matter of life and death, right?
00:49:44
Speaker
And it doesn't matter, meaning they don't care if they keep trying and failing. They just know if they don't try, they're going to die. And I think for us, the way humans are now, it's not the case. For most projects we're doing, if I don't write, I'm not going to die. But if I don't eat, I'm going to die. So it's like we have a very different spectrum of what matters. And so we don't have a sense of urgency for our goals, I think. And so animals can do it.
00:50:14
Speaker
because I can, because I need to survive. I think for us, see these goals as a way for you to survive, because again, if you do well in whatever you're doing, you will thrive, whether it's mentally or physically or emotionally. It's just fear. And again, it's okay to be scared of failure, but don't be afraid to fail. Don't be afraid
00:50:37
Speaker
to continue on after failing, like is going to happen. We're all going to fail at some point. And I promise you, we'll come out alive on the other side. We are not like an animal where if we fail, we literally starve to death. Like we will come out alive. Um, let's keep that in mind. You're going to fail at some point and it's fine. Just try again.
00:50:58
Speaker
And there's a chicken and egg question here. What came first in a lot of cases? The self-care that you tried to shoehorn an animal into or an animal that you tried to shoehorn a self-care principle into? Oh, such a good question. OK. Let me talk about how. OK. So the process I would have was I would write down self-care principles that I thought were actually interesting. Like there's not a single
00:51:26
Speaker
I can hear them like, I don't really believe in it. I truly think all these are good tips. Use growth mindset as an example. You're marked and underlined a lot of things, but that one to me was especially resonant. Okay, amazing. I would write down these concepts to recap.
00:51:50
Speaker
There's two kinds of kind of mindsets and there's a fixed mindset and a growth mindset. And the concept is if you have a growth mindset, um, you're open to learning, you're open to trying a new thing. So versus a fixed mindset is you're like, Oh no, I can't play basketball or like, Oh no, that's not for girls. Like it's a fixed mindset. Like you have no intention of changing, um, versus growth mindset is.
00:52:20
Speaker
Oh, like, let me try it. I can maybe do it. And it's just letting yourself give that permission to yourself to try something. So I knew I loved that because I think it's just a great way to live. And so I have written it down and then I started looking at different animals just for fun. And I've watched a lot of Planet Earth for inspiration. And I started looking into axolotls, which are
00:52:44
Speaker
He's really cute. Like I say cute because they are, but these amphibians that are native to Mexico and they look like they're smiling all the time. So sort of looking into them and axolotls are one of those amphibians that will regenerate when like a body part is severed. So an arm or a tail. And they also like can, they never age. That is something interesting about them. So they are literally just constantly growing.
00:53:14
Speaker
Um, and don't die really, unless it's like pollution or like kind of more natural causes. And I talk about this relationship and I had, again, I just kind of choose which parts I talk about. There's so much more taxolotls than just this regeneration component. Um, but I talked about it in here because it's like, okay, just like an axolotl you're cutting off its arm, something's happening. It will grow back. Um, they're constantly in a growth mindset. Haha, literally, right? Like they're.
00:53:43
Speaker
They're always regenerating. They're never just stopping themselves and similar they tie it back to Let's talk about us. Like when something happens to us You know whether it's someone telling you you can't do something or society or you feel like you can't do something You a lot of us will stop we're fixed. That's it. It's a fixed mind. I cannot do it I don't have enough natural talent or something. There we go. It's like yeah, you know, I can't I
00:54:11
Speaker
I just don't have the skillset to be a good photographer, for example. But it's like, okay, let's switch over to the next model, like growth mindset. Okay, but like, what if you did this? The what if, you know, like, let's start baby steps and okay, I don't have a skill set to be a great photographer, but I could be like a halfway decent one. Let's take a class. Let's do this. Grow yourself into it, ease and self into it. Like you don't have to be a professional by tomorrow. Ease and grow.
00:54:41
Speaker
And growth is a very slow process, which also makes it way less intimidating because so slow, you don't realize it's happening. Um, and so that, you know, things like that. So I would like, you know, find some sort of, you know, self-care tip. And I help people wouldn't consider limited in growth mindset as self-care. It's actually a lot of business books. It's like a business principle of like companies and stuff. And so, um,
00:55:08
Speaker
This I think is self-care just because your mindset has shifted. So I would have these lists. And then when I would research animals, I would kind of reference back mentally and like, how can I relate this? And if it did feel like a stretch, I would like scratch it. But this one I liked. So yeah, it was very, very particular in the egg in that sometimes the animal would come first. Like for example, some of the more natural ones I think were like the porcupine.
00:55:37
Speaker
when porcupines fall, they fall a lot because they're in trees. They impale themselves because they have these quills, but they've evolved where their quills will not give them an infection. So basically their bodies have evolved to account for messing up and they won't die. And so that one was so natural. It's like, oh, like you've just, you're built as a being to account for your mistakes. And we're kind of similarly built. Like we have, you know,
00:56:07
Speaker
thicker skulls and we, you know, we, as a child, we will fall a lot. We won't get hurt. We're built for it. But then when it comes to mentally making decisions, we kind of pause, but it's okay. We're built for it. We're built for messing up. And so some of them came more naturally, but some of them did come with a lot of research and just figuring out what makes this animal special.
00:56:30
Speaker
And kind of piggybacking off the growth mindset and the talent part and thinking of yourself as sort of inadequate and then you sort of have these anointed people that you admire, just look on your bookshelf or whatever and you're like, oh man, I want,
00:56:50
Speaker
I want that I want to be that but they're they're probably struggling to. I know for me like if I have to make a tough phone call if I'm writing a story and I know I'm gonna have to ask some gnarly questions or something I just kind of put on a different hat like I picture the reporters that I really admire.
00:57:08
Speaker
And I know that they have a hard time like Pamela Koloff or Louisa Thomas like these great reporters and writers I know they have a hard time sometimes picking up the phone and so I just put that hat on I'm like alright if they can do it I can do it and so that in effect when I imitate them and then do me there is some of that growth there is that something you experience to like sometimes you just have to pretend like you're someone else.
00:57:31
Speaker
Oh my God. So much. Uh, it makes me so happy that you also do this. It makes me feel so much more normal. I call it my, um, like my dude hat. And I say that because like in some situations, like I definitely am like, okay, if I was like a tall dude, like I'm like a petite Brown woman right now, I'm like, it also got tall dude walking into the store or like talking to this.
00:58:00
Speaker
person like I'm unhappy with or like making a decision about or asking for more money, right? Like how would, in my mind, this like confident man do it. And I say confident man, I think a lot of the time I might hold myself back because I'm like, Oh, like, you know, I should be friendly, but it's like, okay, yeah, always be a friendly person, but don't let that get in the way of your progress in life. And
00:58:24
Speaker
Um, my, my dude hat comes on like, okay, how would I speak if I was more confident? How would I speak if I felt like I, you know, like really worked hard towards it? And eventually it becomes part, it becomes a streak of your personality where it's like, okay. Like let's put everything aside and be this person. Um, and if it's not my dude hat, it'll be exactly like you said, like I will, you know, like I'll, for creative work, I will like look at like a lot of like, kind of like,
00:58:51
Speaker
Instagram influencers. I say Instagram influencers because there's a lot of artists on Instagram I really just adore and I think are so talented. And so I remember that they're showing their highlight reel or yeah, that's another quote. Like it's like, you're seeing someone's highlight reel online and on your bookshelf. Like you're only seeing their successes. Um, you're not seeing things that broke them down and built them a bit.
00:59:17
Speaker
Um, and so when I am doing something difficult, okay. I'm not sure about the first person history to have done this. Um, and I will kind of, I'll, I'll practice rounds and I will again, put on a hat of whether it's a dude or it could be even like, maybe it's somebody younger than me, like a child, like, you know, how would somebody that's really innocent ask this? And how would somebody, uh, who's truly inquiring for this, um,
00:59:45
Speaker
I think that's such a healthy thing to do because it does distract you from feeling uncomfortable, right? And like, um, I'm a big fan of persona hats, like do it, but do it for good. Like don't be like evil about it. You know, like you don't want to like, yeah, like I just like, like, yeah, don't, like, don't pretend like you're a cop. Like, you know, don't do that. That's not legal. Like, you know, like, like do it. Don't pretend like you're a doctor on the internet. Like don't, don't be evil about it. Like when it's for something noble, like you're asking for a raise.
01:00:15
Speaker
Emulate somebody in your life that's more confident or confident where you want to be like that's okay. Um, or yeah, asking the hard questions. Like I think I emulate my parents. They're really good at difficult conversations and saying eloquently. And so I'll like learn from my dad or mom. Like how would they do this right now? Um, and yeah, I think it's so normal and I'm so comforted that you do that.
01:00:37
Speaker
Oh, for sure. And you reference Instagram influencers and all and the highlight reel. And that can do any number of things to one's confidence when you're comparing their blow dried outsides to your sort of rotten muddy insides. And you write, too, with respect to in the octopuses,
01:01:02
Speaker
chapter that sometimes you feel like everyone around you is the epitome of confidence. And so how do you process that and not get into the compare and despair game and the imposter syndrome that can sometimes dwell on you when you're in the mud while you're looking outward to everyone else's highlight reel? Oh, totally. First of all, kudos, octopuses. That is the correct plural. I know that's a big contention point, so thank you. Yeah.
01:01:31
Speaker
imposter syndrome. Um, imposter syndrome is so real and I don't want people to think like, Oh, it's just like really serious thing. Like, no, everybody has this. It's fine. Like this feeling of, you don't belong, you know, like whether you started a new job and you're realizing your coworkers are so much smarter than you, which I totally felt like that at my job. Like, I'm like, everyone's so much, so much smarter. Like any second now they're going to figure out I'm a fraud. I feel about,
01:01:59
Speaker
this book, like the way I feel about this book, I feel so much imposter syndrome with this book, like to be very transparent. Um, I'm so honored to have my name on something, but even in my own like home, I like kind of put it to the side. I have my own books. I feel weird putting it with those books. I'm like, ah, it's not a book. And like, it sounds so stupid, but there's always a part of me and I think a lot of people where it's like,
01:02:25
Speaker
Oh no, like it's fine. Like you, you over modest yourself. And with the octopus I write, you know, they're masters of deception and disguise and like they can, they can like act like snakes. They can act like, um, you know, like floating, they can act like different fish. Like they will literally change the color of their skin and their behavior and they will make it work. Um, and.
01:02:50
Speaker
as people, we can do that too, whether it's wear that outfit that makes you feel confident or cooler that day. Or if you are wearing makeup, like, you know, put that makeup look on that you love or in a hairstyle that you like. And on Instagram and on social media, that's what everyone's doing. Like they're putting their best self forward, you know, like at that moment. And they have put in hours behind that photo. They have put in hours behind that travel picture. They've edited it or they've, you know,
01:03:20
Speaker
earned enough money and worked really hard to get to that spot. It's not like they woke up and that happened. Even when it's artists online, they have had dozens of drafts before this beautiful painting that you're seeing. And they're putting their best selves forward. And I think when you realize, when you put your best self forward, you're not that bad either. You're great when you're really trying. That's all that matters. And imposter syndrome,
01:03:50
Speaker
I don't know any clear cure or remedy for it, but all I know is like knowing that everybody else around you has at some point felt like they don't belong. Um, that's happened to everybody. It could be like, it could be like former president Obama. I'm sure at some point he was in a classroom kind of like, Oh, I don't know what's going on. Or it could be Oprah or, you know, it could be JK Rowling. Like she's like the epitome of like, he's a good author, but
01:04:20
Speaker
hey, they've all gone through something in their life where they felt challenged and they're not good enough. And that's okay for you to feel. Again, there's no cure for it, but I do find solace in knowing that it's not uncommon. We're all just faking it till we make it. And again, in a legal
01:04:42
Speaker
moral way. Do not fake being a professional when you're not, like just don't, especially in these times, like just don't, don't be an internet warrior. Um, but yeah, they could totally make it and you'd be surprised at what happens. Like you and studies have shown, um, if you're nervous just by putting your hands on your hips and standing up straight and tall, um, for like maybe 15 seconds, like you will feel better. Or if you're really upset at smiling,
01:05:12
Speaker
Um, the power of smiling, like you, you will feel better because your body is just taking cues off your physical self. And so take it till you make it all day, every day.
01:05:24
Speaker
in a legal, moral way, and you'll be fine. Because everybody else is doing it. Everybody's trying to get that like. And of course, you title the book Wisdom from a Humble Jellyfish, and that was maybe the fifth or sixth or fourth or fifth animal you kind of profile in there. What was it about the jellyfish that elevated it to be the title of the book? Great question.
01:05:49
Speaker
I actually can't take too much credit for that. Um, the original blog post I wrote, um, gelled the jellyfish was one of the featured animals and a line I had written was take it from the humble jellyfish. Um, you know, it's okay to take breaks and my editor at the time just adored that line and she's like, I just love.
01:06:12
Speaker
this, like take it from the humble jellyfish. And that was actually going to be the title. It's currently wisdom from a humble jellyfish, but it was originally slated to be that line I'd written like two years ago. And
01:06:25
Speaker
She pitched it, and I loved it. I'm like, I actually love jellyfish. I think they're so fun and beautiful, and there's so many species of them. And what a quirky name. Jellyfish. We couldn't think of anything better. What a dumb, delightful name. You look like jelly. OK, you're a fish. Well, jellyfish. And so I'm like, yeah, let's do it. And so she sparked that. I think going back to finding people, asking for help, this
01:06:54
Speaker
This title, this book took a village to complete. A humble line from a humble blog post was the reason for the title. Well, that's great. Ronnie, as we wind down here, where can people find you online, get more familiar with your work, and of course, pick up this fun and lovely book you've written? Oh, why? Thank you for asking.
01:07:22
Speaker
Um, how did he know that's why I was here? Um, so the, um, actual link to buy. So this is really any of any retailer. I feel so cocky saying that, but any Barnes and Noble, your local bookstore, I will encourage everybody listening to this, especially right now. Go to your local bookstore's website. Um, Amazon is a great resource. Um, but in these times, I think, and if you have a chance to support a bookstore, please do so. Um, so go to those,
01:07:50
Speaker
you'll find it on there. You can also go to hc.com. H as in horse, C as in cat, hc.com backslash jellyfish. And there will be, it's at the Harper Collins site and you'll see different options of where to buy it from. So you can even search for your local store and that will work. And then personally, I would say follow me on Instagram. I post a lot of what I'm working on and just updates on my life there.
01:08:20
Speaker
Um, nothing too personal. I don't really post a lot, but I post a lot on stories. And so if I'm doing like, I actually have a pop-up this weekend, um, for, um, an organization called product of culture and they showcase a lot of South Asian artists. And so I'll have a pop-up shop this weekend on their Instagram, but you can follow me, um, at Ronster monster, um, R a N S T E R monster. So that's my online handle for everything. So you can pretty much figure out my life by searching that. But.
01:08:50
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, this is so much fun, Ronnie, to get to know you a little bit and unpack the great stuff in your book and how you came to write it. So, yo, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking shop. Oh my God, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me and I hope you're staying safe and sane right now. I hope, yeah, and I hope you're just enjoying some sunshine. It's dark right now.
01:09:15
Speaker
We did it. We made it CNF-ers. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure you're subscribing to the show. Of course, this crazy show is produced by me, Brendan O'Mara. I make the show for you. I hope it made something worth sharing. And if you really dig the show, leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Show notes are at BrendanO'Mara.com.
01:09:35
Speaker
Follow the show on the various social media channels at cnfpodacrossamall. Get that newsletter at my website. Win books, win zines, hang out with your buddy BO. Once a month, no spam, can't beat it. Are we done here? We must. Because if you can do interview, see ya!