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Eirik Gislason on Hard-Won Negotiation Lessons from NYC Real Estate, Outmaneuvering Hard Bargainers, and Getting Paid What You Deserve
48 Plays17 days ago
Eirik Gislason (archwaypartnersinc.com), founder of Archway Partners Coaching, leader of the Excelsior Team at Brown Harris Stevens, and host of the Shear Line: Negotiation Mastery podcast, joins host Dan Freehling (contempusleadership.com) to discuss how to get more of what you want without bullying, hard bargaining, or leaving value on the table. Eirik explains why hiring the meanest broker backfires and what strength in negotiation actually looks like (00:42), how collaborative negotiators grow the pie in a real estate deal rather than splitting it (06:05), and the upside and hidden downside of “Minnesota nice” (12:03). He walks through how to prepare for a negotiation with a Trump-style hard bargainer, including anchoring, BATNAs, and process before substance (15:47). Eirik also shares takeaways from the Harvard Law School negotiation program (41:20), unpacks the five most common negotiation mistakes (47:42), and breaks down the four decision-maker types (53:23). Recommended reading: “Getting to Yes” by Roger Fisher and William Ury, “Getting to Yes with Yourself” by William Ury, “Think Again” by Adam Grant, “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss, and “Negotiating the Impossible” by Deepak Malhotra. Show notes at forwardlookingleadership.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to Eric Gislason and Real Estate Negotiation
00:00:05
Speaker
Hey everyone, Dan here. Welcome to another episode of Forward Looking Leadership. Today I'm honored to be joined by Eric Gislason. Eric is a seasoned New York City real estate professional who's on a mission to bring back the good name of negotiation.
00:00:17
Speaker
Eric, thanks so much for joining us on Forward Looking Leadership.
00:00:23
Speaker
Dan, I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me on and I look forward to our conversation. It's gonna be a fun one. I'm looking forward to it as well.
Collaborative vs Aggressive Negotiation Tactics
00:00:31
Speaker
So first, why shouldn't a client hire the worst, most absolutely bullying, meanest person they possibly can to be their broker in a real estate transaction?
00:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, i um I guess on the face of it, it seems like, hey, I want i want someone who's going to go out there and and just take the strongest possible position, right? And so that's part of it. so I'm going to give you kind of three of the reasons why you wouldn't do that. But I do understand why on the face of it, there is some logic in saying, I want somebody who's strong and I want somebody who's going to advocate for my interests. And ah what happens is a lot of times people that comes out as I need somebody who's going to be aggressive or who's going to be hard bargaining.
00:01:18
Speaker
And there's a misunderstanding on the side of the client as to what you can provide if you can as a negotiator in terms of strength, confidence with the other side. So I i tell my clients if they do instruct me to take that kind of a position that like it may seem like it's in your interest for me to do that, for me to be the bull in the china shop, for me to go out there and do do things that might jeopardize relationships or that might back other people into a corner.
00:01:50
Speaker
But let me explain how we can show strength and confidence in another way and gain everything that you want to gain throughout this transaction or or get the most possible the best possible outcome that we can And do it in a way that doesn't that doesn't have the effect of what bullying, hard bargaining, gaslighting does, where people retreat, they back into a corner, they they swing back, right? they they They go into fight or flight mode.
00:02:20
Speaker
And that ultimately is not going to serve the interest of the client. So fredt that's first is reframing what strength in a negotiation actually means for that client.
Ethics in Real Estate Negotiation
00:02:29
Speaker
and reaffirming or giving them comfort that when you negotiate without them in the room, because that's the other part of this, right, is there they are relying on you to be assertive, to be powerful on their behalf so that they don't give away anything that they shouldn't give away, so that they get as much as they can get. And so because they're not in the room with you, you want to show them that there's that strength and confidence that you are going to display, that you understand what it is that they're asking of you,
00:02:59
Speaker
And you're going to do it in a way that maximizes the potential gain for that client. I can stay strong. I can stay in control and I can get you the best possible deal doing it this way.
00:03:10
Speaker
And I found, you know, whether your deal doesn't really matter what the decision, who the decision maker is. And we have talked about all the the disc profile and different decision maker types. And you know i i categorize them into the expressive humanist, the collaborative feeler, the analytic thinker, and the assertive driver. And even that assertive driver, even that type A personality, if you can show them that the value that you're bringing, even if it's different from what they would do, if it's going to serve their interests, they're all in.
00:03:42
Speaker
so that's So that's number one. Number two is I talk about tactics versus strategy. As a competitive as a collaborative negotiator, I'm not averse to competitive tactics. we We as collaborative negotiators, we will use competitive tactics in an environment or in a situation where we feel that it's necessary and with our client's permission.
00:04:04
Speaker
So if we need to move the ball forward, my job as a collaborative negotiator is to get the most possible, the best possible deal for my client. And if that requires that at some moment we have a tactic that may be borderline or may be very competitive, that might be the answer.
00:04:22
Speaker
So I want to talk to them about tactics versus strategy and how I understand that and how I don't lead with a strategy that is filled with a bunch of competitive hard bargaining tactics. We'll get to that to that if it's necessary, but we don't want to start there.
00:04:36
Speaker
And then the third is i i want them to understand what they're asking of any negotiator. if ah If they're trying to size up whether they're going to hire me or not, and they're trying to decide whether they want to hire the bully or hire me, who is a skilled collaborative negotiator, I often talk about that loyalty piece.
00:04:56
Speaker
And how if they have a negotiator on their side who's willing to go into battle and start throwing punches for them and and take that approach with the other side, the reality is that that negotiator will undermine you at the first opportunity without thinking twice.
00:05:15
Speaker
They'll poison the well if it means that they get something out of it. Because that's what you're asking them to do. You're asking them to to just to to completely separate themselves from the wants, needs, emotions, all of that of the other side of the transaction.
00:05:33
Speaker
And if you expect if you're goingnna if they're going to do that for you, they'll do that against you at the first opportunity they have. So you know be careful what you wish for.
Value Creation in Negotiation
00:05:41
Speaker
Yeah, that all makes so much sense. And love this reframe into strength is part of this collaborative negotiation process. And it's not saying we're going to be pushovers by being collaborative negotiators. It's the exact opposite of we're not just going to go in and have one strategy, which is try to throw the first bunch and hope for the best. It's taking this in a much more non-zero-sum kind of a way.
00:06:05
Speaker
That's exactly right. and And I grew up in Minnesota. went to camp in Iowa. And so I always love saying, and and when I'm trying to describe what collaborative negotiation is to people, because oftentimes people think of collaboration as splitting the pie 50-50 and getting as close to a ah deal where everybody gets the same as possible, which is not what collaborative negotiation is. Collaborative negotiation is maximizing the gain for your side of the transaction while adequately satisfying the other party.
00:06:36
Speaker
your counterpart, and and minimally or marginally satisfying any related third parties. So I want to keep an eye on those third parties who have the interest of my client and interest in, you know, ah that have some influence in the deal.
00:06:49
Speaker
And then I want to make sure that the other party, the counter our counterpart in the negotiation, feels that they were treated fairly. They feel that they were given enough. And that could mean not very much. And it could mean a significant amount, depending on what the power balance is. But I'm not there to give away more value than I need to. I want to understand by asking questions, by really getting into the interests of the other side, what it is that we can do to exchange things of lower value to us, to get things of greater value to us, and create value in that transaction.
00:07:24
Speaker
oh Value creation is huge for my my business the way I like to conduct it. I think that's probably why we're kindred spirits in this. But it's always thinking of you know how do you how do you create the most value and then you can talk about you know who gets to capture what parts of that. But it's much better to be dealing with a much greater chunk of value there than trying to split difference.
00:07:42
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And you i mean you mentioned a great book, Never Split the Difference by Chris Foster. It's one of the like a seminal work. i would say everybody should should read that. But you also mentioned that term zero-sum game a little bit earlier.
00:07:55
Speaker
And that is a huge... I think a huge disconnect for a lot of negotiators that that we're dealing with a fixed pie, that they believe that we're dealing with a fixed pie, and that there's only a certain amount of value that can be obtained. And so therefore, I need to get at least 51% or more of that pie. And if I do, then my client wins.
00:08:16
Speaker
And necessarily then if I get 51 or more percent for my client, the other side gets 49% or less, they necessarily lose. And that's how we get into that win-win negotiation versus the win-lose negotiation.
00:08:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's so counterintuitive for
Understanding Risk in Real Estate Negotiation
00:08:32
Speaker
people. What is an example in a, let's say a real estate transaction where you're able to actually grow that pie? Like what does this actually look like for people instead of just, I want to pay this much, they want to sell it for this much, and we have to just split this?
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, there are there are so, so we talk about all of the different value elements that that come into play. And so sometimes it's about minimizing risk for the other side.
00:08:55
Speaker
So it may be something like, so in our in our market, for for the most part, we're dealing with a minimum 20% down in all transactions. It's not required in a in a in a condo transaction or in a single or multifamily house.
00:09:09
Speaker
But in order to compete, oftentimes, the You have banks that are lending on eight what we call 80% loan-to-value. And so in order to make the deal safer, a lot of deals are done at that 20% or more. A lot of co-ops in New York City require a minimum down payment of 20%. But because banks will lend typically on an 80% loan-to-value ratio,
00:09:33
Speaker
If I can get my client to put down 22%, 23%, 24% and give that owner some comfort that if there is a slight under appraisal and in the market we're in now, that could definitely happen. you know You've got falling prices, longer days on market. And so if an appraiser is looking at trends or if they don't know the area very well because New York is filled full of so many small sub-markets,
00:09:59
Speaker
then they may underappraise the apartment. And an underappraisal of even $5,000 on a $500,000 deal could allow the the buyer to either renegotiate the deal or walk away from the deal and exercise by exercising their mortgage contingency.
00:10:16
Speaker
And so they say, well, I need, i need putting 20% down, i need from the bank. on this $500,000 deal. The bank's only willing to lend me 80% of $495,000. And now we've got this $4,000 gap that the buyer has the opportunity to say, you know what? No, thanks. They have any remorse or if they have any, if they're having second thoughts, they can walk away from that deal, take their 10% contract deposit.
00:10:45
Speaker
So as you can imagine, if you understand this as a negotiator, And you understand what the fear of the seller is. The idea that a risk this risk this deal might be risky because maybe they're priced a little bit higher than what they think the market might or an appraisal might come in.
00:11:01
Speaker
Now, all of a sudden, they're calculating whether this deal is going to happen. And these deals take two or three months typically to close. So there's all kinds of timing factors and risk factors that are involved with leaving your apartment on the market for that long length of time only to have to come back on the market if they get declined Yeah.
00:11:26
Speaker
that could capture ten fifteen thousand dollars of price value ah in that negotiation and that's just one example yeah and you're seeing that expertise and creative thinkinging come into play there yeah Yeah, and helping the other side understand what their risk is.
Cultural Influences in Negotiation: The 'Minnesota Nice' Approach
00:11:43
Speaker
you know, part of that that, that's part of it is is is highlighting to the other side, look, this isn't all about price. There there are risk elements here. What is it that you're concerned about? And once I can understand what the concerns are on the other side, maybe there's something that we can offer that doesn't cost us much, but gets us a lot. Mm-hmm.
00:12:03
Speaker
So you mentioned the Midwest upbringing and Minnesota nice as a concept. Let's say somebody comes to you and they are naturally or culturally, whatever the the breakdown is, there they're Minnesota nice. what What is your growth plan generally for someone like this? What parts of being Minnesota nice are actually advantages in this kind of negotiation? What parts are disadvantages that we need to work on?
00:12:27
Speaker
That's such a great question. And our first on on my podcast, Sheerline, that was, i had one of my very good friends. He's an interior designer named Jay Billiott. And he's my part-time co-host on the show. And so he and I, was like, what are we going to do for for our first podcast about negotiation? And then one night it came to me, oh, Minnesota, nice. We both grew up in that world.
00:12:47
Speaker
and And it is there is, there is a benefit and a drawback. There are tons of benefit. And when you're in it, it seems very beneficial. This idea of being polite and friendly, showing emotional restraint in in in times when other people might just get into it, like New Yorkers who are not afraid to have that conflict. And when you're conflict avoidant, you you you you tend to have a little bit more emotional restraint. So there's some some good parts of it. and and And it feels good. it It feels good to be in that environment. But the reality is that there there are some negative attributes when it comes to just being a full human being and, you know, and and really understanding your value and your worth. And I think that one of the downsides of Minnesota Nice is there's so much deference and this ability, this this conflict avoidance and this compliance to just let the other person have their way.
00:13:42
Speaker
And if you know anything about Minnesota Nice, the other component of Minnesota Nice is as soon as you walk away from that person, whether you're at church or whether you're at the grocery store, they'll turn away and, oh, my gosh, they'll let everyone around them know what an awful person you were for taking advantage of them. Right. So it's not that they don't understand that.
00:14:02
Speaker
that they're giving something away. But if faced with a, do i do i do I try to negotiate this? Do I stand my ground? Do I stand firm on my position? Or do I just, I'll just, I'll give it away. And maybe it'll come back to me the next time.
00:14:18
Speaker
they they They prefer many people in that environment, and it's not just in Minnesota, obviously, that they they tend to let that happen and they tend to avoid that conflict. And so, like I said, what the the issue is that that that that passive it leads to passive aggressiveness, ah the resistance to change, and then the biggest thing is a gross understatement of one's wants and needs.
00:14:45
Speaker
And that is where I had to really break out of that shell when I especially when I moved to New York and really understand that it wasn't bad for me to ask for something that I felt I deserved or it wasn't a bad for me to understand what my value was and ask for someone to exchange value as opposed to me just giving and giving.
00:15:09
Speaker
And giving and and that that wears on you over time when you feel like you're always the one who's giving into someone else. And and you know when when you are when you learn how to collaboratively negotiate and you embrace negotiation as something that actually does benefit both sides, when you really can understand that, now you're more excited to say, okay, I know what my value is or I know what the value of the thing that I'm negotiating is.
00:15:37
Speaker
How can i communicate that value to the other side, understand what they value, and then find ways to, as we talked about earlier, create value in that transaction?
Dealing with Aggressive Personalities in Negotiation
00:15:47
Speaker
So much of this competitive bullying negotiation style is playing out on the national stage and on the cultural stage right now. And it is perhaps interesting, perhaps telling that President Trump has come out of this traditional New York real estate market. it And I'm wondering, it it probably has some some broader kind of cultural relevance to it too. But let's imagine you were going up against President Trump at a real estate negotiation and you You know kind of his style. You know generally the way that he's probably going to approach this. yeah what would you do to prepare What would you do to prepare your client for going up against someone like this?
00:16:28
Speaker
Well, I'll say, i'll I'll very quickly say first that I i agree with you 100%. This is something that's pervasive in in in in our culture from leadership on the national level with Trump and into reality TV culture and so many, so many facets of for our life where we're celebrating this kind of behavior and, and encouraging it, this bullying type of behavior, which is,
00:16:59
Speaker
Which is unfortunate. So I just want to i want to make that comment because I think it is it's uniquely bad right now. As I've watched the style progress or change, you you you start to see exactly how you would negotiate with this type of of person. and And I think that, yes, this is something that this is a way that he's done business his and his entire life.
00:17:24
Speaker
adult life. It hasn't reaped the kind of benefits that, that I think, um, a skilled collaborative negotiator would, would have. Um, and I think it's very, very simple. like It's, it's really about understanding the mechanics of a negotiation with him because There's a lot of bluster.
00:17:45
Speaker
There's a lot of hard bargaining. There is a lot of bullying. And the first thing that I would encourage any negotiator, if you're dealing with it, with any type of a negotiator like that is you have to remember that this is not personal.
Strategies Against Hard Bargainers
00:18:00
Speaker
Anything that is being said to you is just a move. It's a tactic. It's something that's that's that's designed to push you back, to gaslight you, to put you in a position where you feel that you that you challenge your own truth, that you feel as though you're subservient or that you have a a lesser position than the other side.
00:18:21
Speaker
They have nothing to lose. You have everything to lose. And this goes into loss aversion. This is how our brains are wired. So remember, I'm not going to take any of this personally. This is not, and I'm not going to be intimidated.
00:18:32
Speaker
Those are the things that I would immediately go into with and it's framing into a negotiation with ah someone like that. um Also understand. and So now I'll go into kind of ah a few points. One is understand the environment that you're walking into. So We all know that if I walk in with deference, status recognition, compliments, gifts, symbolic gestures, not as a way to give up deal power, but as a way to get to the table, that's going to be necessary. So if I'm really interested in a deal,
00:19:11
Speaker
then those types of concessions are huge to someone like them. They're nothing to me. I can make those concessions and it doesn't give me, doesn't give any ground on my negotiation by getting there at the table, but I may gain favor or I, and we've seen, we see this all the time, right? I may gain that seat at the table, which is where I want to be.
00:19:34
Speaker
by being able to have to to understand the the environment that I'm in. So that's one. take Check your ego at the door. So now that you're at the table, now you've got to prepare. You've got to be very clear on your goals. And this is where I think a lot of people really get caught up in the way that he negotiates.
00:19:52
Speaker
Because this is what a bully does. They will try to get you to challenge your position or take such an extreme position that even if they don't get everything they want,
00:20:04
Speaker
they've, you know, let's say there's a middle point to a negotiation. You're at one, they're at a hundred, right? And you're looking at where this deal gets done. And oftentimes psychologically we'll, we will, we'll think about that middle point, right? So, so we're, we're, I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out where we're, what's the zone of possible agreement on what side of that middle point is this going to get done? And what someone like he will do is he'll take it in a position at 300, right?
00:20:31
Speaker
So now you're at one, he's at 300. Now he's dragged that middle point to 150. You had no plan to go anywhere ah yeah above 100, let alone 150.
00:20:42
Speaker
But now he'll make concessions to get you to 100. And now you've started at one in 100 and he's taken this extreme position in order to get you to drag that middle point so that you'll end up at a something that he's actually more comfortable with. It may not be everything that he's asking for,
00:21:00
Speaker
But you'll you'll you'll comply and you'll you'll you'll actually change your own goals. You'll you'll justify that 100. And say, oh, I didn't give him 300. I didn't give him everything he wanted, right? Meanwhile, he wasn't looking for 300. That was just an extreme position to get him to what his actual goal was. So you've got to be very clear about what your goals are, what your what minimal acceptable outcome is there.
00:21:26
Speaker
you know there There are different schools of thought or different thought leaders on negotiation, Harvard program and negotiation being one of them. And I'll mention a couple of terms from them today, I'm sure. But but the Penn program, the Wharton School, they're there they put a high value or they say the most important source of power is goal setting.
00:21:46
Speaker
is having minimums, maximums, and goals, understanding what you are willing to do. um And then Harvard you know places what's called the BATNA, the best alternative to a negotiated agreement, which is which is very similar. it's a But it's about the goal setting and and sticking to those goals. So knowing what your minimum outcomes or that you'll be willing to accept are, what your ideal outcome is, and what your walkaway point, your reservation point. When are you going to say, nope, and walk away? And being willing,
00:22:16
Speaker
to walk away. Not say, oh, we'll just see how it goes. Because a lot of people enter into negotiation with a person like him and they're like, well, let's just feel it out. You cannot feel it out. You've got to be very clear.
00:22:27
Speaker
The third is focus on what what Deepak Malhotra from the Harvard program of negotiation calls process before substance. Another great book, Negotiation Genius, um or actually no, Negotiate the Impossible is where he said the process before substance. He also wrote Negotiation Genius. but negotiate the impossible. He talks about process before a substance with someone like that, with any hard bargaining negotiator, you want to talk process before a substance. They're going to want to go right to substance. Tell me what you're going to give me. I want this. I want that.
00:22:58
Speaker
You want to sit down and say, how's information going to be shared? What decisions are going to be made in this room and what decisions are going to be made behind closed doors outside of this room? Who has authority on your position and yours on your side to make decisions?
00:23:12
Speaker
Because you'll see the good cop, bad cop come out. You'll see transfer of authority come out. You'll see all of these tactics come out on their side where they're willing to switch the negotiator on you midstream so you don't even know who you're negotiating with.
00:23:25
Speaker
So process before substance. You've got to define the process or they will. or they'll define the process. And and in ah in a high profile profile negotiation, usually the louder party is going to have favor or is going to have the control.
00:23:41
Speaker
So you want to have that process before substance. And then I talked about the BATNA. You've got to have a BATNA. What is your best alternative? What is plan B? and And this is a mistake that in any negotiation, not just in a negotiation that we're talking about right now with ah with a with a bully, but in any negotiation, you are stronger, much stronger in that negotiation if you have at an alternative, a plan B. Because now you have a reservation. Now you can justify that reservation point. When are you going walk away from plan A and go to plan B? It's very, very clear because you know what plan B is. So having a plan B, having a BATNA, best alternative to negotiated agreement, is crucial when dealing with a hard bargaining um because that hard bargaining negotiator.
Job Offer and Salary Negotiation Tactics
00:24:27
Speaker
Because then you have that power to say, nope, you know what, what you're asking for? And we're seeing this with Canada, right? This is exactly what Canada has done brilliantly, is they're exercising their BATNA.
00:24:40
Speaker
They're saying, you know what? We have another choice and we are going to exercise that other choice. And, you know, we'll we'll we'll walk away from the table because we have better options.
00:24:51
Speaker
And that's given them strength that they didn't have before. As you know i mentioned the baton of it, you've got to be willing to say enough and say to that hard bargaining negotiator, we're done.
00:25:04
Speaker
And you've got to be comfortable with the fact that that might mean that the negotiation does not come to fruition, that a deal is not made. But you've got to be comfortable saying, I've had enough, calling out the tactics and saying, we're done.
00:25:18
Speaker
if you When you're ready to have a negotiation that is honest, that is fair, that is collaborative, whatever however whatever term you want to use, call me. but But this is not happening.
00:25:30
Speaker
And you show strength in that ability to walk away. Yeah, we work with a lot of job seekers on negotiating their job offers. And oftentimes it'll be, okay what is my bat and if yeah I don't have a job currently? And what we've come to really is continuing to look for a job can be its own bat. It can be I'm willing to walk away. I'm willing to just keep on the search and I don't have to take whatever this first offer is it's something that's going to work for me.
00:25:55
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. And and yeah there's a lot to talk about there when it comes to negotiating salary, an increase in salary or a job offer. There's a lot there's a lot to be discussed there. And and a lot of similar some some of the similar things that we just talked about will will come into play.
00:26:12
Speaker
Yeah, let's get right into that. what What would you advise someone who is negotiating a ah big job offer? So... The first thing I will say is you you do have to have a value proposition. you You have to go into that negotiation, understanding what your value is.
00:26:29
Speaker
What is it that you are already doing if you're currently there or if you're changing from one similar role to another company? So what is it that you've already done to establish value in that role?
00:26:41
Speaker
Or what will you do? and And that's something that I think that a lot of job seekers or people who are looking for for a so a raise or or or a new position, they they they think that the other side should assume or should have, so they assume that the other side has that information, that the other side knows why they deserve the the salary that they're asking for or the new position that they're asking for. And the reality is, is that we have to toot our own horn.
00:27:14
Speaker
That is that we have to get comfortable with the fact that we are we are responsible for showing our value to the other side. So that that's one, is we have to have a value proposition. We have to be able to explain what benefits that we are bringing to the table that are going to have value to that organization, especially compared to or in contrast to any other candidates that they're looking at.
00:27:38
Speaker
What makes you uniquely qualified to have this position? And and that you is sometimes that's uncomfortable for people. But the better you are at understanding that conversation, it's going to lead to all of the other things that we'll talk about that will that that will get be an advantage ah for you in the in the negotiation. i We talked about a BATNA.
00:28:02
Speaker
you You mentioned it. You're absolutely right. You have to have BATNA in your salary negotiations. And it can be that I'm going to continue looking. You have to negotiate from a place of confidence, but it can be that, look, I'm comfortable taking this job search further to make sure that I find the organization, the company that sees the value that I bring to the table and is willing to compensate me properly or is willing to give me the job that I'm that i'm seeking.
00:28:30
Speaker
um I don't have to take the first opportunity that I that i see. and And that's hard. That's hard for us just from a Just from how we're wired perspective, especially from like somebody wants me. Oh, great. That that we we feel that elation that, of the okay, there's a safety and security and and the dopamine fix of this person wants to hire me. Now they're paying me half of what I will actually want, but isn't this great that they want me?
00:28:59
Speaker
And again, sticking to those goals and understanding what your minimum and maximum goals are is going to be very important in that situation. The other thing I'll say is I think a mistake that people make is that When they go into a negotiation, oftentimes the you know there's a power position in a negotiation when the ah putting down the anchor.
00:29:20
Speaker
So oftentimes a company will walk in and they'll say, well, this the the position pays $70,000. And so they'll tell you right off the bat. And so you're like, okay, 70, shoot. I was thinking 90, but they're telling me 70. So I guess it's 70, right? They've now put down the marker and you you're kind of in your mind,
00:29:38
Speaker
accepting that as truth as opposed to a ah negotiable position. And so you you have you have a responsibility to also anchor.
00:29:50
Speaker
And yeah and and we what we want to do as as negotiators is we want to anchor at the highest justifiable position, right? If I'm in a real estate negotiation and I'm representing a seller, I want to understand what our highest negotiable position is. What is it that, what is a reasonable,
00:30:07
Speaker
thing to ask for. Now, our strategy might not be to ask for the most possible list price that we could because we might want to we might be thinking about competition, things like that. But I want to know what is the highest justifiable anchor if we were to do that?
00:30:22
Speaker
Is it a million? Is it a million two? Is it 800,000? Now, if I'm working for the buyer and we're going to put in an offer, I want to come in with the lowest justifiable anchor that I can. I want to get a counteroffer from the other side, but if they're willing to accept my first anchor, I'm as justifiable.
00:30:44
Speaker
Now I've just like a bully will try to bring the negotiation to that 300 level we talked about. I've now changed middle point in that negotiation because I've gotten my offer. It's it's been deemed as credible.
00:30:58
Speaker
And now the other side is going to counter my offer, but I've already started to move middle point on that negotiation. So we want to know what our highest and lowest justifiable position is. And that requires research. That requires that you go out there and find out what are people in your position with your experience getting paid for this job?
00:31:20
Speaker
Can you bring in data? Can you actually bring in information that will justify that this is $90,000 position, not a position?
00:31:30
Speaker
And at the end of the day, they may not be willing or able to pay you $90,000. So this brings me to one of the other, the last thing that'll that I'll mention, that is understanding all of the value elements that come into play when you're applying for a new position or looking for a raise or a new title within an organization.
00:31:51
Speaker
It's not that only the only, the salary is not the only lever to pull. And oftentimes, especially in entry level positions, people will get stuck because the the HR professional on the other side of the of that and negotiation will essentially say, we don't negotiate salary.
00:32:10
Speaker
Everybody gets the exact same salary when they start and they'll use that social proof or that they'll use that idea that everybody's on the same playing field as a way to tell you, you don't get to negotiate this.
00:32:24
Speaker
So what I often will tell people that I help with salary negotiations and I have is what are some of the other elements that that might be at play? Are there performance bonus elements that might be at play?
00:32:37
Speaker
Are there signing bonus elements? Okay, you can pay me $70,000, but you can also give me a $20,000 sign-on bonus, payable $10,000 when I sign my agreement and $10,000 in month six when I've when i've completed six months of of um you know of employment. Now you're taking on a little bit of the risk on that second 10,000 that you're actually going to be there in six months, but that might be a way for you to get to that $90,000 number that you want.
00:33:03
Speaker
Are there performance metrics that you can institute or you can ask them to put on the table as a way for you to supplement what they are willing to give you in a salary with ultimate value?
00:33:15
Speaker
Are there training opportunities? Can you get a ah budget for continuing education? Can you get somebody to work with you or for you? Can you get a mentor? All of these things that actually have value for you as a as a job seeker, it may not be something that is directly salary related, but there are so many things that you can ask for. And what you find is when you when you negotiate those non-salary elements or non-price elements, now you start to see what what the other side values more.
The Negotiation Mindset: Always Ask for More
00:33:49
Speaker
Are they willing to put you into a mentorship program? Do they have one? If they don't, then maybe they are willing to say, you know what? We don't have a mentorship program. Okay, you know what? We'll do the signing bonus, right? And they'll and they'll and they'll negotiate with you.
00:34:03
Speaker
Yeah, those are all right on from from my experience and would encourage everyone listening and watching to take those into account as you're approaching a negotiation. Eric, I'm really glad you brought up this guilt tripping with saying this is the this is the salary, this is what it is. And i think this is something that I have not heard talked about a lot, but there's so much of a push there.
00:34:25
Speaker
rightly so, for more salary transparency. And I think that's 98% correct, right? like I think that's like a very good thing. We should have much more salary transparency. We should have positions saying what they're going to be paying people in terms of a range yeah and sticking to that.
00:34:42
Speaker
I have seen this be used to lowball people. And it's just, the salary is this, and it's ridiculous. And I've seen it put out as you know, $20,000, $30,000 less than that position should really be paying. And they're just trying to say, in the name of equity, in the name of transparency, we're going to lowball everyone and stick with that. And I think that's an important thing to be on the lookout for and to be ready to counter. And think you've given such a strong way to do that, which is, okay, if this is going to be well below market rate, I know market rate, I've researched it. Here's my proof. Here's what I can bring to the table.
00:35:18
Speaker
And if this is actually what it is, then this is other stuff I would like or I'm going to be having to walk away, unfortunately. And I think that puts people in such a better position. 100%. I'll give you ah an example that I just dealt with. one One of the people that I'm coaching called me today and he's got he's got an interesting situation in rent in a real estate transaction. And there's there's something having to do with an issue from an inspection that they did on a house and he's representing the buyer.
00:35:45
Speaker
And the the the listing agent, essentially, when he went back to him and said bought just kind of asked. He didn't, he's not negotiating.
00:35:56
Speaker
He's just throwing it out there. And he said, you know, would the seller be willing to participate in the repairs of any of these things or the fixes that are going to be required that are going to have a meaning that are going to be meaningful in terms of cost?
00:36:09
Speaker
And the other, the, the listing agent said to him, no, but the sellers it's as is the seller's not going to give you anything. So he's on the phone with me and he's like, he's like I know that they're not gonna be willing to negotiate here. They're gonna be willing to give anything.
00:36:24
Speaker
And I said, how do you know that? And he said, well, he told me that. And I said, okay, there's a difference between someone telling you what they will do in a negotiation and someone doing that thing in an actual negotiation. You have not started a negotiation with them.
00:36:45
Speaker
nothing's real. It's all hypothetical. And so you coming to him and saying, would your seller participate? What do you think the answer is going to be? I mean, if I'm on the listing side of that transaction, I know that if I say to them, yeah, my seller's reasonable, they'll probably give you some money. So just tell me what you're looking for, right? I've just given away a tremendous amount of power on behalf of my seller. So the only reasonable answer for me, if asked that question outside of a real negotiation is no, I don't think that's going to happen.
00:37:15
Speaker
And so we have to understand that when somebody says something like that, anchors, says something that that is the that isn't, we're not in a negotiation. They're making a statement. This is what you get paid.
00:37:29
Speaker
They're not negotiating with you. They're just telling you something. Now, the question is, is that real? And when you establish value and start negotiating with them and you have a BATNA, a walkaway position, you're not tied to this outcome and you're willing to say, if I don't get what I believe I'm worth, I'm going to keep looking or choose another option.
00:37:51
Speaker
Now you're going to really see If that's their number and you can't get there until you actually engage in in a real negotiation. I mean, I think that's, we often do that. We take what somebody says to us as gospel, as the truth. And really i another example, my, one of my wife's family members, I will leave it at that.
00:38:13
Speaker
We used to be in an HR position And that she would be responsible for onboarding or having the the final ah conversation, onboarding conversation with a new hire. She knew what the range of salary was.
00:38:26
Speaker
And she was asked by her boss, and it was her job, to walk in and give them an offer that was about 30% lower than what they would actually allow for that first-time position.
00:38:38
Speaker
And she's like, it shocked me how many people just said yes. And she couldn't say a thing because she's representing the company. She can't say, it just ask for more, just ask for more. She has no right to do that.
00:38:50
Speaker
And all they would had to do is ask for more. They wouldn't even have to do, I mean, they all they would have had to do is say, that I'm not comfortable with that. What else can we can can and we make it X? And the answer would have been yes, because she knew she had a range to work with.
00:39:04
Speaker
it's It's so right, and it's helping the other side help you. and real I love this point of realizing that they're a professional who has professional interests in protecting their side of the negotiation. and it's They're not somebody who actually wants you to accept that that lowball offer the beginning. Oftentimes, these are decent people who are put in this position to have to negotiate on behalf of their folks and keep that.
00:39:28
Speaker
My business partner, Spencer, and I have a he has a concept actually that's knowledge is bargaining power, which I like a lot. It's like being able to bring in you know all of this knowledge of that the types of salaries and everything. And then we've developed a joint talk now on negotiating for altruists. So this is really negotiating for people in the social impact sphere. And one of the biggest concepts we have in that is just negotiate. Just just do it. Not negotiating is a bad option.
00:39:55
Speaker
yes Just at least always participate in the negotiation and try to ask for more. And yeah, it's shocking how many people don't actually negotiate at all, never mind all of the nuances of how to negotiate well.
00:40:08
Speaker
Yeah.
Learning from Harvard: Multilateral Negotiation
00:40:09
Speaker
Yeah. good Just go in, you know, just practice with this. I think this is from This American Life. They had a they had a segment on This American Life on negotiation. And i can't remember one of the one of the correspondents or one of the participants that that did a lot of stories there um went out and just basically, with ah whether it was a restaurant or a a department store, he just said, do you have a good guy discount?
00:40:34
Speaker
I really love the good guy discount. And that kind of humor or that way of of entering the negotiation, I think it was like, I can't remember what the stat was, but it was it was far greater than 0% where the person on the other side of the counter was like,
00:40:50
Speaker
I think we've got, let me, let me give you this discount or that discount. Maybe not. It wasn't that they called the good guy discount, but they had something that they could do. They had a 10% off coupon that was good, you know, for men for, for only for inside members for that day. And they would say, you know what, here, I'm going to give you this discount for today. They had the ability to do it. All he had to do was ask.
00:41:11
Speaker
And, and he just did it with that one question. do you have a good guy discount? I remember that episode. It's a great one to bring it. This is a, that's awesome. Yeah. So you went through the Harvard Law School negotiation program. Yeah. what were What were some of the things you learned that you weren't expecting to learn? Because you came in...
00:41:31
Speaker
already being a seasoned pro, already being a ah really strong negotiat i'm a negotiator, i'm imagining. What were some things that surprised you from that? It was an unbelievable experience. And you're right. It's it's it's one of these programs where it's it's not like an intro negotiation class. The people that are in that program, the the first thing that was amazing to me about it,
00:41:51
Speaker
The people that are in that program are from all over the world. So so we're you know we're there. and this was When I did it, it was during COVID, was virtual. and So you have small group. it's it's It's confined to a small group of professionals, men, women, from all over the world.
00:42:07
Speaker
So you had people that were 12 hours ahead or or or you know six hours ahead. So there are people in all different time zones who are dedicated to this program.
00:42:19
Speaker
And and it's not inexpensive. So you've got a lot of buy in. You've got a and you've got a lot of people who are in very powerful positions who have decided that they need this education or they're coming back for the second, third or fourth class because there's just so much value that can be offered, um ah you know, at in any stage of your negotiation career.
00:42:41
Speaker
But I'll tell you the one thing that was probably the most fascinating for me and that I i wasn't anticipating it to be a part of the the course is talking about multi multilateral negotiations.
00:42:55
Speaker
Negotiations where, and so we did exercises where we were ah representing different NGOs or representing different organizations who were trying, and and and the country that we were working with, we were trying to all satisfy the needs of our organization or our state in order to come to a deal.
00:43:11
Speaker
And what's fascinating fascinating to me is you know in ah in a real estate transaction, which is where a lot of my dealings are, you have two principles. you know you As I said, you have those related third parties that you need to minimally or marginally satisfy. You have your your mortgage professional and your title rep and your attorney and and Uncle John from Poughkeepsie. You have all of these people who have who are kind of tangentially satisfied involved in the in the in the transaction.
00:43:40
Speaker
But for the most part, you have two parties. Maybe in a state sale, you've got a few parties that that are have competing interests on the so on the sell side of of a deal. But it's just not something that we have to do on a regular basis.
00:43:55
Speaker
So entering into those exercises where we were given our position what what we could give away, what we were willing to accept. And these exercises are so well-formulated. They're so beautiful. And so you're you're told what you want to do.
00:44:12
Speaker
and And this is the goal. This is your minimum goal, right? And and how do you achieve what you want? But also, you have to make... deep you you had then had done order to get what you want, you have to speak on side deals with different people,
00:44:29
Speaker
with the understanding that if you're speaking with that person, they may be speaking to someone else. They may be looking at their interests and going, hmm, who's gonna give me the better deal? There has to be a leadership component because there's nobody facilitating that negotiation. So somebody's gotta step up and and be the trusted member of that negotiation that is going to facilitate a conversation.
00:44:55
Speaker
And it's important that that person either have a significant interest or maybe a larger interest in the outcome or that they're just trusted by everyone else. So how do you establish that trust with a group that you don't know? And especially, we were you know we were from different countries.
00:45:11
Speaker
But we weren't specifically from the countries in the in the exercise that we're doing, right? So so we we didn't have we didn't have the same cultural issues that would arise from this kind of ah of a multiul um from a a multilateral negotiation.
00:45:25
Speaker
But we had we did have some cultural differences. So it was really fascinating to try to go, okay, you're like, okay, I think I can do this. I can, I can work this out. So you go to someone who you think might be able to help you achieve your goals. And then next thing you know, there's somebody who's like, no, I'm sorry, I'm gonna walk away from this. And yeah, there's no deal unless there is a deal that everybody's involved in. And that was, i think, maybe the most fun, but also the most fascinating part of that course.
00:45:54
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds both super fun and fascinating. It's reminding me of, um so i was I was in a model UN as a kid, and the high yeah um even in andrew through college and you know hosting ah a conference for high school students to come and and do this. And always say it's it's some of the best leadership development you can possibly do to be put in a position like this. of yeah You're representing this country or this position and You have to go and yeah part of it is facilitated and part of it is out in the hallway and you have to make coalitions with all the other students and figure out all of this how these dynamics go. and It's just something I'd really encourage everyone to be to be doing if they have they have kids or if they have you know if they're in a position to join this as a student because it's so fascinating and you really learn a ton about how to do this.
00:46:36
Speaker
Absolutely. i Those things as a yeah and for children in in at a young age, it's so
Teaching Kids Negotiation Skills
00:46:44
Speaker
important. I mean, we talk about how great children are as negotiators, you know negotiating like a child and understanding some of those those innate skills that we that we kind of lose as we get older because we get so...
00:46:57
Speaker
tied up in outcomes where so with the ego um yeah is so it it was driven by ego. um we're We're afraid to be intrusive by asking, so you know, being ceaselessly curious and like all of those things that kids do.
00:47:09
Speaker
If we could then take that before they lose it, and give them a context where it actually works and it you know they can see it in in in front of them, having value and creating value for other people while creating value for themselves. if we could If we can instill that or or you know keep that keep that within the within our children so that they don't lose it as they get older, they they don't they stop asking questions, things like that. If we can we can harness that. It would be a beautiful, beautiful thing.
00:47:42
Speaker
So, Eric, you work with a lot of experienced negotiators who have a lot on the line in terms of their their jobs and their prosperity and and all of this kind of stuff. What is something you see even the most experienced New York realtors get wrong in negotiations?
00:47:58
Speaker
A lot. I mean, there, I think that um um oftentimes we, our ego takes over and we, and we just forget some of the, we forget to take that deep breath, let our free prefrontal cortex, you know, come back in and and then let us reason through things. So a lot of times we're reacting to things and that takes us out of our game.
00:48:20
Speaker
So i I'll mention a few things and I've got ah i've got ah an ebook that I wrote that is designed exactly for this question. And it's the five it's the the five negotiation mistakes that are costing you money and outcomes, right? So I'll go through those. are Those are, in my opinion, some of the the best that I can offer any negotiator at any stage in their career. But sometimes it's, I'll just mention a few tactical things that I think are often a mistake. That's, you know, making price the primary focus, always focusing on price and eliminating all of the other value elements in a deal. Just being myopic, that can be a very big problem. Not understanding the different decision maker types.
00:49:00
Speaker
You know we talked about the analytic thinker, the expressive humanist, the collaborative feeler, and the assertive driver. Not understanding who you're communicating with. what their behavioral cues are and how they communicate um is a is ah is ah is a mistake in in delivering a value proposition, in creating value and all of that.
00:49:19
Speaker
Trying to pre-negotiate a deal, like I said, having the conversation and going, hey, do you think they' you know take care you know think they'd participate in the and this solving this problem with the with the inspection? Nope, they won't. And taking that as...
00:49:32
Speaker
actually a negotiation as opposed to just a statement, an anchor. So pre-negotiating a deal can sometimes get in people's way. So those are all just like tactical errors. But the ones that I talk about in the ebook are some of them are pretty classic, but always important. One of them is negotiating positions rather than interests.
00:49:53
Speaker
We get caught up in in positional bargaining in these stands. And instead of trying to understand what the underlying area of so of concern is, what the other person wants, what is of interest to that other person, as opposed to fighting them where they are or the thing that they said,
00:50:10
Speaker
That's a big mistake. The second is, and stop me if you if you have questions, if you want to talk about any of these, but I'll just kind of rifle through them. Yeah, go go through it them. This is great. Talking too much and asking too little.
00:50:21
Speaker
You know, that idea I mentioned, ceaseless curiosity, which is what I like to, the term I like to use, that that childlike curiosity where we ask multiple questions in many different ways to try to gain intel and frame in the position of the other side, the answer to the problem you're trying to solve. it there the The more questions we can ask in different ways in order to get more information, the better we are. And oftentimes we are so busy talking about the experience we've had, what we think the outcome will be, what we believe the assumptions or the conclusions are of of our of our of our client or our counterpart in negotiation. We're so busy telling people how we think it is or what we've done in the past that we forget to just keep that channel open, that ceaseless curiosity open so that we can learn more. The third is, as you mentioned at the top, treating a negotiation like a zero-sum game.
00:51:22
Speaker
not understanding that we all value things differently. We do not place the same value on purchase price or on salary, on the risk that's associated with the with that negotiation, with all of the different elements in the negotiation.
00:51:39
Speaker
If you can understand what the other side wants and what's of value to them and how they rank those value elements, then you can identify exchanges and that's where value is created. That's the whole...
00:51:51
Speaker
that's That's at the core of collaborative negotiation is identifying those exchanges that can be made to make that pie bigger. um So just you know treating a negotiation like a zero-sum game.
00:52:02
Speaker
um Letting emotion drive strategy. getting you know We talked about ego, but letting emotions get in the way, that idea of emotional flooding, getting emotional in a deal, taking things personally, um and letting that drive your next question, your next strategy. tactic, your next strategy is a mistake.
00:52:23
Speaker
um And then last, confusing confidence with aggression or avoidance. And we talked about Minnesota nice, but confusing what confidence is. And if you're looking at it, if it's coming at you with the other negotiator and they are being aggressive, we oftentimes fall back this position. Well, they must be powerful.
00:52:43
Speaker
They must have status. They must have belonging in groups, all of those, right? we They must have all of that because they seem like they're so confident. They're so successful.
00:52:55
Speaker
And so don't, you know, make sure not to mistake confidence for aggression. and And then when you're doing it, you don't have to be aggressive to come off as confident. In fact, quite the opposite is true.
00:53:07
Speaker
Those are the five that I think are are really stand out to me. Yeah, i would definitely encourage people to check out that
Adapting to Different Decision-Makers
00:53:14
Speaker
ebook. on the Yeah, different find it on my website and just give me your email address and I'll send you the ebook. It's it's at archwaypartnersinc.com.
00:53:23
Speaker
Beautiful. On these different types, could you tell us a bit more about these and kind of how can people identify which one they're predominantly showing and then like how do they tell what other people are showing up as? So I'll i'll reiterate that the four types, and this they do follow quite closely to the DISC profile, if you're if you're familiar with the DISC profile. But you've got the assertive driver, the collaborative feeler, the expressive humanist, and the analytic thinker.
00:53:51
Speaker
And there are they are very different. I mean, the the two more introverted of the four are the, surprisingly, or believe it or not, the analytic thinker and the assertive driver.
00:54:03
Speaker
um And then the more the more extroverted of the two would be the expressive humanists and the collaborative feeler. But what's important about those four decision-maker types in a negotiation, especially if you're if you're if you're delivering a value proposition to a potential client, if you can identify them as, they could be a mixture of of of a couple of them, but if you can identify what type of behavior, what type of personality type they are,
00:54:30
Speaker
Then you can pick up on behavioral cues and then you can start to communicate with them the way that they want to be communicated. A couple of high level things I'll say, like the assertive driver, they don't want to be your friend.
00:54:40
Speaker
They don't want to read your testimonials. They don't want to pet your dog or talk about your family, right? What they want is for you to tell them how you are uniquely qualified to help them, to identify their problem, and to tell them how you're going to solve it.
00:54:54
Speaker
to bring data to the table, to to have a real concrete data that is going to show them what the what the answer is and that you can interpret for them.
00:55:05
Speaker
so they So that's important to them. That's the way they like to communicate. They may say, I have 10 minutes. I have 10 minutes to be on a meeting with you. That's it. Call me and tell me how you're going to solve my problem.
00:55:17
Speaker
So and by identifying them, by having someone who gives you that short timeline, who seems very type A, they seem very aggressive as a negotiator. um They seem even sometimes like a jerk.
00:55:30
Speaker
That's a sort of driver. It's not that they're a jerk. at least they may not be a jerk, you know, maybe they will be, but any decision maker type can be a jerk, right? But they come off as very abrasive.
00:55:42
Speaker
And for someone, if you are an expressive humanist, if you're somebody who is more into storytelling and is more into feelings and is more into like the win, win, win, where there's actually that third win where everybody just, the the organization or the the society as a whole benefits from this deal, right? If you're that type of a negotiator, that's what fuels you and that's what you want out of a negotiation, then you're going to feel like this person's coming at you 100 miles an hour and it's going to feel uncomfortable and you're going to not vibe with that person.
00:56:14
Speaker
right and Oftentimes, we walk away from negotiations. they just weren't We weren't vibing. you know We just didn't jive. right When in reality, they could just be a different type of person and a different style of communication. And does that mean that there can't be a a relationship there or a deal to be made there? Absolutely not. In fact, an assertive driver will be your best source of referrals and your most loyal client till the day they die because they finally found someone who can do for them what they've been looking for someone to do for them, who can execute and get the job done.
00:56:49
Speaker
So if you can get that, that success with it, with a, an assertive driver, they, they, you, they will be an incredible client for life for you, but they're never going to want to hang out with your family.
00:57:00
Speaker
You know, it's not going to happen. And then on the other side, I'll tell, I'll talk about the, the other kind of introverted side is the, the, the analytic thinker. you know, that's the kind of person that is going to want more time. Once they make a decision, they're ready. They're ready to make it. But it takes them a long time to get there. They want to see data. They want to see ah they want to really process everything. So if you're the kind of person who, you know, schedules back to back to back meetings, you got a four o'clock, you got a five o'clock, you got a six o'clock. And at 445, you're like, shoot, I got to get out of here to my next meeting.
00:57:30
Speaker
and you're with an analytic thinker, you may lose them by getting up and having to go to your five o'clock because they need until six o'clock. And maybe you should actually just schedule a happy hour or dinner after that two hour meeting so that you get them, you stay in front of them and give them every bit of information that they need in order to make a ah decision ah or to to understand that you're the right person for them.
00:57:52
Speaker
And then of collaborative feeler, I mentioned the expressive humanist, collaborative feelers in a similar way, they want to be a part of the process. They want you to bring them along. They want to collaborate. They want to look at your testimonials. They want to see how you took care of that other person. They want to see the effusive pros and like all of the wonderful language about how caring and professional you were.
00:58:14
Speaker
That means something to them. and And so you know that that's ah kind of an overview a little of a little bit. but I have a whole class that I teach that's like a seven-hour class on just drilling into these different decision makers. So it's a longer conversation, but that gives you a a sense.
00:58:31
Speaker
It's phenomenal. And the different approaches to the different types, I think, is especially helpful for people. and Yeah. I love that. then None of them is necessarily better or worse than another type as a client. And it's just yeah recognizing this, being able to meet the moment.
00:58:47
Speaker
That's right. And understanding that you're going to have situations where you're going to be negotiating with partners. a couple, mother and daughter, know, you're going to, you're going to multiple people that are principals in the negotiation on the other side of the deal.
00:59:03
Speaker
And they may have different negotiations or the different different personality types. They may fit into these different categories. And you want to make sure that what what happens a lot of times in our negotiations is it is the loudest voice gets the most attention. So the stronger personality, the assertive driver of the group will may be the one that you focus your attention on to try to satisfy their needs. Meanwhile, there are two other people in that room who are and so an analytic thinker or a collaborative feeler that are different.
00:59:33
Speaker
And because you're really gearing your conversation toward the most forceful personality, you you might lose the ground with the others. So really understanding and being in tune with who's in the room and how they communicate and just meeting them where they are is can be a it can be very, very impactful. And then you walk away from that. If you are someone who's an expressive humanist, you walk away from that meeting with an assertive driver and you just get them a little bit better. You're like, okay,
01:00:01
Speaker
I understand it. That's okay. I don't have to talk about my dog. They don't have to pet my dog. We can still do a deal. We can still have a relationship, a business relationship, and I can do best the best possible job for them and be the right agent for them.
01:00:16
Speaker
But we're just going have a different relationship than some of my other clients. You mentioned a bunch of books already negotiation. What books or other resources of any kinds would you recommend that listeners check out?
Recommended Resources for Negotiation
01:00:29
Speaker
um Well, ah I'm a big fan of podcasts, the yours included. i mean, when we when we connected, i was like, okay, now I've got another deep dive that I can go down into and and ah in ah in another podcast. And I love that. i love I love when I can just binge multiple episodes of a new podcast. So thank you for giving me that opportunity. But i I'll mention a couple others aside from your podcast that I really like.
01:00:54
Speaker
One is ah if we're talking about negotiation. So if you want an approachable podcast on negotiation that is really, really brilliant, it's a podcast called Negotiate Anything, um which you probably know that's but probably the most popular ah negotiation podcast. that The guy named Kwame Christian is the host of that podcast.
01:01:14
Speaker
Um, that is, that's a great, if you want to have an approachable podcast about how to understand buyer psychology, our own psychology, the negotiations in general, great one.
01:01:27
Speaker
Um, there's another one that I just about maybe six months ago was turned on to by a colleague, which is, it's a, it takes a lot of to to get through it, but it's a podcast called Solved. Do you know this podcast? I don't know this one, no.
01:01:41
Speaker
It's a guy named Mark Manson. He's a but New York Times bestselling. ah you know okay you know So this is Mark Manson's podcast. And he and and his and his colleague, his his researcher, um what they but they do essentially is they they'll go away for three weeks and they'll research a topic like resilience.
01:02:02
Speaker
And they will then approach this topic From a historical perspective, from a psychological perspective, theyll they will drill down on this topic for like three hours. I mean, literally, it's a long podcast. You got to watch it and or listen to it in multiple sittings.
01:02:20
Speaker
But it is so fascinating because they they leave no stone unturned and they really get you thinking about how thought leaders think about this. They'll bring in other people who have who have spoken or who have who have written about this topic. They'll go way back in in history to really find the roots of of the of the of linguistically of the roots, what it actually means. it's It's just fascinating. So it's called Solved. So I highly recommend that one as well.
01:02:48
Speaker
A couple of books. Oh, and then I've got one that I love just for fun. i'm I'm kind of a a white collar crime junkie. I don't like bullies that we talk about. I like to see the the bad guy get taken down. And and so so i there's a podcast that I love. There's two women who are journalists who have a podcast called Scamfluencers. Did you know this podcast? I don't. you're all my god You're our second kind of white collar crime junkie. Oh, yeah. rest So this is this is great. I'm sure Peter is the other one who who'll probably like this one. Yeah, it started it started for me with the Enron, the smartest guys in the room, that that that documentary. Oh my God, I've i've watched that documentary like 40 times. I just, I can't get enough of it.
01:03:28
Speaker
but it But that kind of of just the... I mean, from a negotiation, what happens? You know, what happens through the course of the way that that it develops and what they think they're getting away with, all of that stuff. But this podcast, these these women are phenomenal. They're so fun.
01:03:46
Speaker
and they'll And they'll just take a like a a person in history could be recent, could be far and in the past, and they'll tell the story of their scam or their, you know, the what they what they did. And they're just a lot of fun.
01:04:04
Speaker
so So I'll put that one out there if you're just looking for a fun podcast called Scamfluencers. And now two books I'll recommend. One, I recommended a couple of other books, but the the seminal work, the work that you that I think you if you haven't read it, you need to read is Getting to Yes by Roger Fisher and William Urey from the Harvard program. um In fact, William Urey wrote a ah book subsequent to that called Getting to Yes with Yourself, which is kind of almost a prequel to Getting to Yes, but it was written afterwards. But that is like considered...
01:04:34
Speaker
a collaborative negotiation Bible, I guess you could say. it's so But it's it's a must read for anybody who's into into negotiations called Getting to Yes. And then the other one is not, I love Adam Grant. It's not his most recent book, which I have admittedly have yet to read.
01:04:49
Speaker
But his last book, Think Again, the Power of Knowing What You Don't Know, that book is fascinating. So I highly recommend anything Adam Grant writes, but that book was, I i found that to be really fascinating.
01:05:02
Speaker
Okay, cool. We will put the links to those in the show notes and encourage people to check those out and 100% to getting to us as kind of the cornerstone negotiation book that on there is a lot of this. So really glad you brought that up for people if they haven't checked that out already. Yeah.
Eric's Real Estate Coaching and Contact Information
01:05:17
Speaker
Eric, all of the different ways that you work with people are genuinely fascinating to me. Do you mind just kind of going through those in brief and then how can people get in touch with you, follow along, learn more if they want to reach out to you and engage you for any of these?
01:05:31
Speaker
Yeah. Well, i if you're in the real estate space, I have a ah real estate coaching company. Now, what I do in in my company really revolves around collaborative negotiations, kind of the jumping off point for all of the coaching that I do.
01:05:46
Speaker
And I think there's there's a lot of, there's ah there's a breadth of where where we can go as a coach, um ah using that coach approach, starting off with this idea of how do we view ourselves?
01:05:58
Speaker
How do we view the people around us? How do we view buyer psychology? And so that's become the jumping off point for my overall coaching. So my coaching is specifically a real estate coaching company, but i you know I coach a lot of people outside of the industry as well. But my coaching company is Archway Partners Coaching, and that's at archwaypartnersinc.com.
01:06:21
Speaker
And if you are a real estate professional, we've created this platform called the Partners Experience, and it's full of videos and modules, exercises, scripts, um ah motivational tools. We have a whole month long series on and the cold. We call it the competence curriculum, and it's a daily two or three minute video, 10 minute exercise.
01:06:45
Speaker
And it just is designed over the course of a month to really help you start to build that that like a higher level of self-confidence. So If you are a real estate professional looking for something, the the Partners Experience is a phenomenal platform and I highly recommend it. i And you can find all of that on my website.
01:07:03
Speaker
I'm a real estate professional in New York City and and I have a team called the Excelsior team at Brown Harris Stevens, this company I'm with. um I've been there for 20 years, or been in real estate for 20 years, been with Brown Harris Stevens for the last 10. And we do residential sales, rentals in New York City, all residential co-ops, condos, single family, multifamily homes throughout Queens, Brooklyn, and Manhattan.
01:07:28
Speaker
and And then i have a podcast as well called Shearline. And the it's a negotiation podcast called Shearline Negotiation Mastery. And Shearline is actually the imagery comes from a Tumblr lock. When you put the key into the lock, the pins line up and create this imaginary line called the Shearline that allows you to open the door.
01:07:47
Speaker
So that's the the idea behind Sheerline is this really trying to unlock these different facets of negotiation give us a better understanding of how we negotiate, how we understand each other. And we're about 20 episodes into that podcast. So there's a lot. You can go binge watch and binge. It's on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. You can binge watch or binge listen to Sheerline for a long time because of my episodes are about an hour long each or about 50 minutes long each.
01:08:15
Speaker
I would definitely encourage folks to check out the podcast. And if you're a real estate professional in the market for a great coach or just a general person in the market for a great coach, you can't go wrong with Eric. And then also if you're yeah in the in the market for real estate, work with one of the good guys is is something. and Work with one of the good guys. that should I think that should be our model. Tagline, right?
01:08:36
Speaker
That's right. And ah Eric comes with the ah the full endorsement of my own mentor coach, Amy, who, you know, anyone anyone gets Amy's endorsement, they're gold in my book. so We should probably just say hi to Amy. Hi, Amy. Absolutely. Yes, one of our loyal listeners.
01:08:52
Speaker
So, Eric, thank you so much again for taking the time to walk everyone through all of these negotiating lessons, and I really appreciate it. Thanks, Dan. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me on.