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Navid Ladha on Why Low Pay Is a Leadership Problem, Finding Hidden Remote Roles, and the Future of Social Impact
36 Plays7 days ago
Navid Ladha (linkedin.com/in/navidladha/, onpurposecareers.org), founder of OnPurpose Careers, joins host Dan Freehling (contempusleadership.com) to challenge the notion that purpose-driven work has to come with lower pay. Navid and Dan discuss why underpaying social impact staff creates wealth inequity that disconnects organizations from the communities they serve (02:53) and walk through what job seekers, board members, and executive leaders can each do to shift this (04:10). Navid shares his take on what AI-driven workforce changes may mean for the social sector (08:44) and the policy levers that could bring more people into this work (12:09). Navid and Dan talk about the growing demand for strategic fundraisers and the case for nonprofits to define an "end game" rather than operate in perpetuity (24:32). Navid identifies the highest-paying, most active subsectors right now (27:38) and Dan describes what he calls the "new social sector" (33:58). Both push back on greenwashing and performative social impact branding (37:09). On remote work, Navid shares findings from running the OnPurpose Careers job board (46:00). He also walks through how he sources hidden roles through his network and how jobseekers can train their LinkedIn algorithm to surface real opportunities (48:59). Recommended Reading: "Sparked" by Jonathan Fields, "Be Ready When the Luck Happens" by Ina Garten, and "This Is Marketing" by Seth Godin. Show notes at forwardlookingleadership.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to Purpose-Driven Careers
00:00:04
Speaker
Hey everyone, Dan here. Welcome to another episode of Forward Looking Leadership. Today, I'm honored to be joined by Naveed Lada. Naveed is the founder of On Purpose Careers. He runs one of the best social impact remote role job boards out there, and we share a common obsession with helping people find work that puts good into the world and pays them well in the process.
Can Purpose-Driven Work Be Well-Paid?
00:00:24
Speaker
Naveed, thanks so much for joining me on Forward Looking Leadership.
00:00:28
Speaker
Yeah, Dan, thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this. And i think you're one of the leading voices in this space of good work, getting paid well, and particularly with the remote opportunities as well. So something that I'm really excited to get into with you.
00:00:42
Speaker
Oh, I appreciate that. No, likewise, I've been following you also and just love all the work that you do. And it's been great to getting getting to know you through this process also. Likewise, likewise. So what is it that makes this work really important to you? I share a lot of these same ideas and pro collections and whatever what I call this, but what is it that really makes this this kind of work important to you?
00:01:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think it all started with the idea or i guess more of a fact that I think a lot of purpose driven professionals tend to minimize themselves when it comes to pay. I think there's this unspoken idea that in order for me to do work that's quote unquote good,
00:01:19
Speaker
Or if I want to make an impact, if I'm going to be in this profession or this industry, i don't need to get paid well. And and that's that's the concession I'm willing to make. And I want to challenge that, right? And I think that's kind of where it starts from to say, actually, there are lots of opportunities out there that allow you to do good work, make an impact and still get paid well. and So that's kind of the the driving notion behind a lot of the work that I do is to say, i want you to find good work. And I want you to feel like you're having a big impact in the world without having to minimize yourself or without having to sacrifice pay.
Equitable Pay in Nonprofits
00:01:52
Speaker
From our mutual perspectives, I'm sure working with so many different clients, it's just seeing that this kind of thing is possible and wanting it for so many more people is is really where I'm coming from on it too. of just This is not something that's some sort of a crazy idea that can happen. it We see it with people all the time and it's just so so much better of a way to live and spend your working career.
00:02:12
Speaker
Exactly. and and we'll get into this in a bit. But I think there are all these aspects that make the nonprofit work even more equitable, or it furthers the mission when job seekers advocate for better pay, when we ask for more compensation. So there are all these connected pieces. It's not just the professional, the individual themselves, but it's this whole idea of what happens because of that fact that you asked for well compensated career in the sector.
Impact of Pay Scales on Diversity
00:02:39
Speaker
I love this. Looking forward to getting into it in much further detail, too. So first, what is what is it that you see as causing it when social impact work is underpaid? What are all these kind of factors that you see going into it?
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah. So I think part of the problem is when organizations underpay or don't pay enough to meet the market demand or the market levels of what professionals expect, you're you're creating kind of a wealth inequity within your organization, right? So what that means is you're probably bringing in people who have the means to live already well, and they're willing to accept this lower pay to enter the social impact world and do good work. And those are the folks that stick around and get promoted. And then so leadership eventually ends up being not the people that you're trying to serve in
Influencing Pay Standards in Organizations
00:03:27
Speaker
the community. So this idea, there's a disconnect between the professionals who are in the sector and the communities we're trying to serve.
00:03:33
Speaker
And so if we're trying to reflect that more and more, i think actually it starts to pay. So if you can, as an organization, increase the pay levels, if you can increase the compensation levels, I think that will drastically influence your future leadership, your current makeup of your staff, diversity, equity, inclusion, all the work that we talk about all the time in this sector.
00:03:52
Speaker
So i think I think that's like the first disconnect that I see. What do you see us collectively being able to do about this? So I guess that's job seekers, that's leaders of organizations, that's board members, that's voters and policymakers that let you take this in any way you want. But what what do you see being something that can change this?
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah, let's start with the job seeker. I think every application you submit is it's kind of like a vote. So I want job seekers to take ownership of that and to say, if I'm voting with my application, if I'm supporting something, how can i stop doing that? How do I stop applying for roles that are actually not paying market value? How do I how do i apply for roles that are are paying well? And I think it starts there. So if job seekers, if the market is starting to demand that from our employers, then employers will have to respond, right? And I think that's already starting to happen a little bit. So that's that's one for job seekers.
00:04:46
Speaker
Voting with your application. With board members, with leaders, if you are part of an organization and you're seeing the operations, the processes, the numbers, apply a lens of equity to
Nonprofits Advocating for Better Pay
00:04:59
Speaker
that. To say, how how much are we paying someone as a professional in this sector, um in this role, and where that work is actually being done? And is that the livable wage? Is that even at the same level? How can we make sure that our staff, let's start with our staff, right? How our staff is being taken care of so that they can continue to take care of others in this mission. They can take care of the communities that we're trying to serve.
00:05:25
Speaker
So i think that's kind of that part that i that I see happening. The third area is, I mean, i think when it comes to executive leadership, so so folks who are now steering the boat that are looking at the operations themselves closely, you probably want your staff to stay with you for a while, right? And you want them to be doing good work. and And again, this idea of like, you want to reflect the communities that you serve. So how are you going to do that? I think that starts with pay.
00:05:49
Speaker
That's kind of what I'm saying. Tell me about your your perspective on this, Dan. Yeah,
Perceptions of Social Impact Work
00:05:53
Speaker
i I really like all of this. and i'm I'm very interested in getting into the kind of voters, policymakers, funders, more systemic level stuff too with this. But I i love the tie-in you make to having people who are not traditionally well off, let's say, getting into this. like I think a lot about the...
00:06:11
Speaker
well-known problems in the US, at least with you know congressional staffers and interns, and they're all getting paid 30-something thousand dollars a year for jobs that are pretty high level. And it's it's the and i think free for the interns. I'm not sure what what the latest is on that, but it's it has the selection bias right of you can only do this if you're already well-to-do. And what is that doing for who this brings in and who this attracts and who this promotes and all of that? so i I very much agree with that. I think there's also this kind of traditional views of social impact work being less than, being not as good as private sector work, being not as value-add as private sector work, being kind of like a...
00:06:55
Speaker
a distraction from profit making and value creation and all of this kind of stuff. And i I'm seeing a future where that is less and less the case, where it's it's much more clear on what the value of this work is and being able to to do that in a way that actually provides value, reflects value and shows that. ah that's something I'm personally really excited about too is like, how do we shape the perception of this work away from it being kind of like a side peripheral charity thing or something that you do after you've already made all of your money and now you're kind of giving back your time or something in that kind of a realm and into...
Corporate Social Responsibility and Brand Value
00:07:34
Speaker
what I see currently in part, which is people who could be doing anything, people who could be working in any space and they're choosing to work in something that's socially impactful and they're bringing the same level of rigor and heart and skill set and competence and all of this to it too. So that's one addition I would add to it for my end. Yeah, that actually kind of makes me think of two different things. Like one is corporate social responsibility and why it exists.
00:08:02
Speaker
And so this idea of, you know, when a corporation invests a lot of, ah you know, resources and community impact, and they have teams, and they give out all this funding. and And part of the reason they're doing that work is because, i mean, in turn, it helps them gain market value, right? Like it helps them reach an audience and increase brand awareness. and And just, you know, it's not just because they want to feel good about themselves. Maybe that's part of it. But part of it is also they're they're increasing their brand awareness and in a market in a specific area.
00:08:31
Speaker
So there's that. So that's why that exists. And so good work complements that, right? So if they need it, that's why it exists. The funding is available. Those resources exist. I think the second aspect of this is, I mean, it's not just generational. I mean, I think I'm a millennial.
00:08:46
Speaker
And I think a lot of my fellow millennials and Gen Zers are actually very much into social impact and doing good work and having having a positive impact on world. So there's, I don't think that will necessarily go away and that that motivation, that incentive is still there.
00:09:00
Speaker
But then there's this like third thing that's kind of emerging and I'm not sure how you feel about this, But if we think of AI and the workforce transformation it's having, and how some of the technical aspects of our jobs, ah the technical workforce, perhaps like that might, might get replaced, or it might get reduced, or I'm not, I'm not sure, I don't know, don't want to predict anything
AI and Opportunities in Social Work
00:09:24
Speaker
there. But what I will say is, if that if that does end up happening, and that seems to be the trajectory we're on, I think there will be more opportunity for us to then solve more of our complex problems that we have, right? So so again, the burden shifts back to the nonprofit, the social impact sector. What are we going to do about this now? What are what are the problems at hand and how we're going to solve them?
00:09:45
Speaker
What do you think about that? you You hit on this. These are the more challenging and complex problems, right? Like this is these are these are things that are not easy to solve or resolve and you know education and health care and climate and all of this kind of stuff that's so human rights, you know, like stuff that's so challenging and and tricky and hard and takes.
00:10:10
Speaker
you know, generations of work to solve oftentimes. And it's not as easy as some traditional kind of businesses, but it's like, what can we be doing to still work toward those while making progress in the short term as well on things? And yeah, I think that's right. Like if there is a future of, you know, let's let's say that the positive case future of AI ends up being that we have, you know, excess information,
00:10:36
Speaker
productivity that gets ah gets applied to everything. And then there's this kind of like freed up whatever this looks like in terms of societal returns for it. And that gets brought back to people who were professionals and workers and all of this kind of stuff. And they get to then spend their time working on interesting challenges. I think that's like a wonderful future. I'm not sure if that's going to be the case with it. Yeah, I mean, like the in the utopian fantasy of like how AI takes over the menial tasks of our work, and then we're all kind of in this reckoning of what will we do with our time? How do I give back? What is the meaning of my purpose and my impact? So I think in that that kind of fantasy, in that world, perhaps like there will be more of an emphasis in our sector. There are some people that are actually talking about this
00:11:19
Speaker
in conference spaces and in different like, you know, um or having a dialogue about what this might mean for the future. And of course, they're also trying to solve that problem by creating more companies, it kind of traces back to capitalism. But ah at at the same time, like, I guess I still appreciate the topic of it. I still appreciate that people are thinking about, hey, maybe maybe there will be a time or a space where now people will want to invest more time.
Policy Changes to Incentivize Social Impact Careers
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Do you see, in in terms of like policy changes or legislation or anything like that, that you would want to see for either current or for this AI future kind of a space that that involves social impact work and all of this, anything that you see on that end of like systemic changes that you see needing to be made or that you would support being made?
00:12:09
Speaker
I mean, i think one of the things that unfortunately is not available anymore is the the student loan payback, right? So this loan forgiveness for public sector work or nonprofit work or education work. I'm not actually exactly sure what the status is of the like people who are involved in the... I i'd would love to hear from your perspective on this too. But...
00:12:27
Speaker
Either way, so I think a lot about how can we incentivize more folks to go into this sector? Are there more opportunities for loan forgiveness or tuition forgiveness or or whatever that program might look
Role of Purpose-Driven Businesses Beyond Nonprofits
00:12:39
Speaker
like? Maybe more scholarships available for this sector. I think policymakers sometimes...
00:12:45
Speaker
Perhaps they they're not sure, or perhaps they forget. But there is there is a very like dotted line from public sector to government work to nonprofit sector and social impact, right? like those That's actually a lot of the similar people or similar values. And so how can we and incentivize this entire population to actually say, like, we actually want to be more civic-minded. And that might mean working for the government, working for the state, working for my county, or working for my local community in a different way. But those partnerships are all intertwined, right? you know, that would be amazing to see. I'm curious, what about you? What are you what are you thinking about that?
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah, i I think that makes a ton of sense. And I know it's really confusing for people now to pursue that loan forgiveness. I don't know what the latest status is either of it, but I've heard some people getting it, some people being tripped up by, you know, little technicalities here and there that make the whole thing kind of not work for them. So I think that would make a ah ton of sense. You know, I'm starting to think too on the what does purpose-driven business have to do with this and what is that side of this? And i just know so many people, i mean, I think both of our businesses are for-profit entities, right? And it's, um you know, we're not running a 501c3 nonprofit to
00:13:55
Speaker
do career coaching and this kind of thing for people in social impact.
Importance of Diverse Funding for Social Impact
00:13:59
Speaker
And I think there's a mix of of benefits to this, of having some government to scale, some, you know, so civic organizations to do what they do best, some nonprofits to do what they do best, and some purpose-driven people doing for-profit work. And I think it all kind of merges and mixes together in a way that can can really create something better than the some of its parts or better than, you know, just government-scoped program that gets really rolled up and advanced in a big way. I think we saw some of the dangers of that with, you know, let's say USAID, for example. We saw some of the dangers of this, you know, we know best and we know what the program should be and we're going to
00:14:40
Speaker
scope it out and then people will bid on it and the companies that will bid on it will all be kind of pre-approved, pre-vetted companies that we've chosen to bid on it and then you see the the work kind of get more distant I think from people, get get away from people and not be something that kind of everyone everywhere can see themselves being a part of with the millennial and the gen z kind of generational shifts i kind of see this return in some ways to to you know our grandparents generation you know civic mindedness was a much bigger part of it they were much more connected to community they were much more involved in these kind of
00:15:20
Speaker
different organizations and different causes and all this kind of stuff that kind of went away and I think is starting to cycle back now hopefully for people. ah It's so interesting. I especially love the the conversation on generations there. I just, what did what did folks care about previously? what is What are the topics that we're caring about today? And how will that shift and change? um And perhaps if if there was more study and research into like, what are the emerging topics? um And what do people care about now? I mean, obviously, like climate environment that comes up often for conversations I'm having with job seekers. I see a lot of that. I see a lot of...
00:15:55
Speaker
AI and ethics. And so that as ah as a conversation piece itself. But yeah, I'd be curious about what else is emerging that that perhaps we're not even thinking about yet. It can be so
Demand for Roles in Social Impact Sector
00:16:04
Speaker
interesting. I mean, one note related to the policy and government conversation we were having. i think one thing that has been helpful, i don't know if i I don't know how I would frame this, but as you know, there's there's a lack of federal funding available for a lot of nonprofit organizations now, right? A lot of that social impact work is no longer funded.
00:16:23
Speaker
But then a lot of private funding funding has stepped up where where that was not no longer available. And so I think what that has helped with for social impact organizations anyway, is to get unrestricted funding. and And so I think perhaps that's a better way. I'm not sure. i would probably want someone else's perspective who's actually at the leadership level of an organization that's now getting private funding versus federal funding and what that looks like for them. um But from what I hear from my conversation so far, like in some ways that private funding has been better. I'm curious, what are what are you seeing?
00:16:56
Speaker
i've I've seen the same thing, I think, with um some of this McKenzie Scott kind of funding, like that that type of that. I've i worked with clients before who were big into that trust-based philanthropy. movement as well, which I think is largely on point of, you know, we're not going to monitor and evaluate this to death, even though that's sometimes important and that's sometimes a part of what needs to be done. But so much time and effort can be spent tracking everything and ensuring compliance on every little thing that you you know, you forget that you want to make bets on leaders and teams who are proven and are doing big things and are, you know, or have the potential, even if they're not proven yet and make smaller bets on them and and see what can come
Expanding Social Impact Landscape
00:17:36
Speaker
about from that. So I really like that way of thinking with it and
00:17:42
Speaker
doing a lot of work now with a guy named Claudio Tanca, who's, who's fantastic, but he's, uh, you know, very into this idea of a resilient portfolio, right. Of this, um, having multiple different funding streams for an organization and that making it so that you're not beholden to any one, you know, you're not beholden to that, that one, you know, whatever it is, billionaire donor,
00:18:07
Speaker
and you have to do their bidding in your work because that's one small part of your stream and you can you can tell them to go take a hike if you want and you can keep doing the work that you're doing. You know, you have some government funding, you have some, you know, foundation funding, you have some individual giving funding, you have some earned revenue, you know, whatever this looks like for that particular organization. But it's um this idea of like the resilience of it being a virtue because it lets you do the kind of work that you want to be doing and that you know how to do. And it lets the organizations that are not doing that not get like artificially propped up by
00:18:47
Speaker
their relationship with the government or their relationship with one particular funder or whatever that looks like for them. and And I guess that kind of brings us to what's happening or what are the emerging trends in in jobs, particularly for development and fundraising. so I think a lot of organizations are catching on, right? they're They're thinking of diversifying their portfolio, diversifying who they ask and how they ask and when. And I'm curious if you're seeing this too, but we're seeing, I'm seeing like so many fundraising and development jobs more so than than I've ever seen. I'm sure partially because a lot of organizations are are thinking of, you know, we need to expand, we need to we need our resources. We don't have funding available that used to be available previously.
00:19:27
Speaker
and so because of that, these jobs are in demand and they're changing. i think the scope has changed a bit. um there There tends to be more and, you know, lots of various constituencies that you're you're seeking partnerships with for for raising funds for development. But then there's this also this aspect of you do fundraising, but then you're also going to be doing strategy and operations. And you're also going to be doing communications and marketing. And so having all these various skill sets for this one particular role, I think that's that's interesting how that's evolving because of all the things that we just talked about.
00:20:00
Speaker
I
Goals and Endgames for Nonprofits
00:20:01
Speaker
think you're spot on here. It's the strategic fundraiser is is really in demand and it goes beyond the person who just, whatever it is, ah submits proposals for things or, you know, responds to RFPs. It's a much deeper, that can be a part of the strategy, but it's a much deeper skillset than that. And I found that working with those people is actually really fun too because they seem to be some of the smartest people in this space. The people who are really, you know, there's kind of like the the regular everyday fundraiser person, but then there's this really, really strategic kind of a person who can, you know, they they have human
Value of Sales Skills in Nonprofits
00:20:38
Speaker
to human skills. They have analytical skills. They really care about this space. They're able to understand positioning and and how to position the organization to go after certain
00:20:48
Speaker
types of funding or certain revenue streams and that kind of a thing and get super in demand, obviously. And I think if you're if you're if you've proven that you can do that and you can do that going forward and you can make that case, you're golden in the job market. But that's few and far between, I think, with people.
00:21:04
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's such an in demand job. And oftentimes this is I forget why I read this, but there was something about how to I guess like think about the job, the fundraising job, the development job in a different way. So oftentimes I talk to people and they're like, oh, you know, I just see so many fundraising jobs. I see so many development jobs. And that's just not for me. I'm not a salesperson. i i don't see myself in that role, but I could do partnerships. You know, I could do, I could do strategy. I could do program. And one of the things that, then I call back and i I'll have to look up where I read this, but thinking of fundraising as a way to invite someone on your mission instead of asking them for resources,
00:21:42
Speaker
And when you flip that that perspective of like, oh, I'm not asking for resources. I'm not like going around begging for money. and That's not my job. My job is to say, hey Dan, this is the work that I do.
00:21:53
Speaker
I'm so motivated and excited about this mission. Aren't you excited about this mission? Aren't you excited about like where ai is going with the workforce and education, how that's evolving? You want to join us on this mission? You want to like work together on this? And then that changes the whole perspective and narrative, right? And I think it makes fundraising and development more...
00:22:11
Speaker
I don't want to say fun, but perhaps more fun, but less salesy, less less the fear that people have about this particular job. Yeah, I think that's so right. And I think one thing I see with people too is that this idea that partnerships is easy, right? This this idea that like, oh, I can do partnerships, like no problem.
00:22:30
Speaker
I think real partnerships
Subsector Differences in Social Impact
00:22:32
Speaker
is exactly what you said. It's that inviting people to come along on your journey. I love that um framing of it. And it's it's really hard, though, right? that's not That's not an easy thing that's like you can kind of phone in and like whatever. it's its It'll happen by you know happen on its own kind of a thing. This is very serious work and the way that organizations can move this forward. And, you know, it's often an executive role, too. I think a lot of CEOs...
00:22:59
Speaker
basically have this as their mandate or executive directors to have this as their mandate of doing this kind of strategic partnerships, fundraising, all of this kind of stuff. Yeah, that's spot on. I feel like um more and more executive director, ah deputy director, all those roles, there is an aspect of fundraising
Workforce Development in Tech and Education
00:23:16
Speaker
involved. I was recently talking with a really interesting guy named Scott roy He came from a corporate sales background, which I think is interesting. And he's he's pushing back on this idea that being salesy is a bad thing. that You don't want to be salesy in the pejorative sense. But this idea that you know complex
00:23:36
Speaker
sales have a place in nonprofits, right? Understanding truly value add, true partnership kind of sales over time rather than just this like immediate asking people for money kind of a thing is um is actually valuable and noble. And I think there's a lot to that. And it's a lot of, um you know, how do you, as a as a nonprofit or as an NGO, how do you not shy away from that? um You know, what do our what do our communities actually want, right? What do our customers in the business sense, but probably yeah for communities, whatever we want to call it now in the nonprofit sense, what do they actually, what are their needs? What are their pain points? What are their opportunities?
00:24:19
Speaker
What do they think those are and how do we work with them to craft solutions together to address these and how do we bring our organization's resources to bear toward this? And i think that's a lot to that.
Evolving Definitions of Social Impact
00:24:32
Speaker
Yeah, no, i and I love that idea. i think um it kind of reminds me of, and again, like I'm so bad at remembering wherever I write read these things. There's something about encouraging nonprofit organizations to also say, what is your endgame?
00:24:46
Speaker
So this idea that you don't have to continue on this mission forever. But like you have a problem that you're going to solve. So let's, and in your words, right? So this idea of like strategic sales, let's get to that goal.
00:25:00
Speaker
Let's raise the funds and the resources that we need, solve for the problem, and then move on to something else that we need to solve. um Have have an end date, have an end goal, or end end game, right? So this this is this is this is what we're doing the work for and working toward. And then this is when we hope to have this work done by. I feel like if more organizations did that, I feel like that would be that would be better for for our sector, it'd be better for our work um instead of this idea of I'm just going to keep operating infinitely. Yeah, and it's the the self-perpetuation of leadership in some of these places where it's pretty clear that a lot of the leaders just, I mean, to the to the point before of who rises up in a lot of places is like, you know, these are people who have
00:25:48
Speaker
often made their career in maintaining the status quo and keeping everything going as normal and you know this is not in their interest to actually end this because they have a a sweet gig going and
Remote Roles in Nonprofits Post-Pandemic
00:26:01
Speaker
it's much more interesting of you know what is what are we what do we really care about with climate let's say right and if this is something that's that's big on somebody's mind coming into it and then where can I bring my talent and skill sets and who can I partner with and who can I work with to bring about this change that I want to see and I think that's right on and it's less of this um you know have I kind of maintained this organization for this organization's sake and much more of what is this for and where can I where can I best position my skills there you know there's this opportunity cost concept that I think about a lot and then comes up with clients a lot too of there's so many different possibilities of what you could do and it's
00:26:43
Speaker
really what is what is it that you would most thrive doing and where do you think that you're best spending your your time and efforts and merging those i think is really important yeah that's spot on that's great so in terms of the best paid role so there's there's all these different subsectors within social impact let's say I talk a lot about this with people of the subsector really matters and you can't really gloss that over. And there's probably trends of location. There's trends of subsector on pay. Certain ones are known to pay better and worse than others. Certain ones are known to be better and worse kind of places to work.
00:27:24
Speaker
Have you noticed the same thing and from from your end? And if so, how would you advise people on which of these they should think about pursuing? Which of these are ones that are kind of notoriously not as well resourced, not as well paid for people?
00:27:37
Speaker
Hmm. I think of that, I mean, so I guess taking a step back, I i see the jobs that are emerging right now. There's there's a bit of a trend and in a pattern and a cycle to them, right? So you know, and I guess there's there's a bit of a season to it. So at this moment in time, I see a lot of roles in education and workforce development. And i think part of that is,
00:27:59
Speaker
regardless of which administration is in power, um economic mobility, education, and workforce are kind of always top of mind, because our communities, our voters, our our residents, our our citizens care about that quite a bit, right? So that that's an interesting topic. And I feel like those tend to be pretty well paid careers, because they they're already equity minded, because they're already thinking about workforce development. And so if they're not paying their own staff well enough, and there's not economic mobility built in, then i think Then then there's there's a flag that goes off or there's a light that goes off. Like, oh, this is not really connected to our mission, which is good. I'm glad to see that.
00:28:34
Speaker
I think right now I'm also seeing a lot of ah like justice and democracy type of roles popping up. And I think those roles are actually quite well paid. Also, there's a lot of policy directors, lots of folks who are looking for organizers. And so that job, I think part of it is because that job is hard. um It's really difficult. It's taxing. And because of that, they are, you know, they pay their their professionals quite well also. So that's that's an area to look at now, particularly if you're a job seeker.
00:29:02
Speaker
I think when it comes to the type of roles, I mean, we talked about development fundraising already, and I feel like that's evergreen and always in demand. And those roles tend to be well paid. I'm also seeing a lot of communications and marketing and and tied with fundraising, but tied also with partnerships and your constituents. So i think that's really interesting and fascinating.
00:29:22
Speaker
I think a lot of nonprofits are getting more professionalized in in how they communicate, not just with their funders and their their donors, but also with their communities, also with their partners, perhaps how they communicate with their board members to say how, what is the work that we're doing? What is the impact that we're doing? And what are our needs from you specifically? So that internal communications, external communications person who can kind of tie in the two together, i think that's, that's really fascinating and and in demand. The other type of role that I see right now that is well-paid, strategy, operations, and that role shows up as director of operations. It could show up as the chief of staff. It could show up as director of strategy.
00:30:03
Speaker
That role or that type of role is definitely emerging. It's in demand. I see it all the time. And and it's paid quite well. I mean, there are roles that are, I'm seeing 160 to 180, if not above 200K sometimes. and Those roles exist. What are you seeing? My overarching answer is typically you know the easiest roles to get are probably strategic fundraising and some sort of an operations role, like you said, that shoves a lot of different functions up underneath it.
00:30:35
Speaker
And it's kind of, it's like pretty obvious that this is like either revenue generating or cost saving kind of. roles. So those are like the pretty obvious ones that i'm I'm seeing right now. But I think you're right. There's ebbs and flows in the types of kind of um functional areas and the types of thematic areas of of these roles. I am curious on pushing into these a bit. So the workforce development ones, where what kinds of places do you see with those? What do what do you think is kind of booming in that space?
00:31:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, there's different ways to think about it. right So there's, when I think of social impact, I also think of tech, because it's innovative, but it is doing good. It is having an impact on the world. And so I think tech obviously pushes that workforce development, post-secondary education, post-secondary learning, where in K through 12, and just this idea of like, how are we moving people in through education to and through and then eventually into workforce and what that looks like.
00:31:31
Speaker
So i think that that definitely exists. I'm also seeing a lot of Think about you know universities that are serving post-traditional students. So we think of WGU, we think of s and hu new Southern New Hampshire University, whatever you might call it.
00:31:47
Speaker
But I think there are lots of colleges and universities or programs like that that are available now. So there's also Reach University that's doing that apprenticeship program. There are all these departments that within major institutions. So they might not be a standalone organization, but they have a department that's focused on workforce development strategy for their students, for their learners, or for the future learners. So there's a lot of that, I think, available. I actually have a background in workforce development, right? So I worked for a nonprofit organization that served post traditional students. who were enrolling in college, but perhaps ah non-traditionally or later in life. So folks who might be working and going to college at the same time. So our organization was providing in-person coaching for folks who were enrolled in online nonprofit institutions. And then once they were done with that program, we were supporting them in how do they enter workforce or if they were already employed, how do they then have economic mobility and get promoted?
00:32:43
Speaker
So that type of organization, and that was like a small organization in Austin, which has now expanded quite a bit. But those types of organizations exist all over the nation in various communities. And so I think that that's kind of what I'm seeing still.
00:32:54
Speaker
what What are you seeing? No, that's that's really, um really interesting. I'm really glad you made the ed tech tie into because that that's obviously booming. And I think this is a lot of what um I was getting at to before with this. um These spaces that don't traditionally think of themselves as social sector, but are very obviously social sector to me. And it sounds like to you, you know, I often I have a friend who owns a bunch of mental health companies like employee assistance program, kind of mental health companies. And You know, you would you would think that that's like obviously social impact, social sector, but people in these spaces don't think of it. um
00:33:28
Speaker
my My dad's in a senior living. He runs a nonprofit retirement community. And it's like social impact is this foreign word to him, right? It's like this. He doesn't think of himself as a social impact professional. He thinks himself as, ah you know, a ah nonprofit senior living professional. And I think these these kind of spaces that are right next door to what we would traditionally think of as in social impact are really important because they they just have so many more opportunities, so many more jobs and and things in them. And a lot of these are booming right now, like EdTech, for example, but these other spaces as well. Mental health is booming. Senior living is booming. All of these different kind of subsectors and
00:34:08
Speaker
you know Healthcare, for better or worse, is also booming too. A lot of people are landing in hospitals and health systems and things. And these are, again, places that people often think themselves as medical professionals or they think of themselves as you know health systems professionals. But it's all social impact. It's all social sector and in my mind. And it's kind of this expression of it.
00:34:29
Speaker
I so agree with that. I mean, I even think of I think we talked about AI and ethics and tech ethics and tech policy and tech for good. And so all of that, I consider that social impact too, right? I also wonder if there's almost like, a is there a movement to be more inclusive of the sector? Like, are we are we including more topics? And previously, people thought of this as social impact? Is that a generational thing also?
00:34:51
Speaker
I'm trying to find the right word for it. I've been calling it the new social sector and just trying to expand this out because it's I think even working with clients one on one, it's there's a lot of linear thinking. Like there's a lot of this, um you know, I was in this very particular space and not really understanding what's right next door to that space. And i think that's I think that's right. i think it's also probably generational, too, with um this idea of I want to be doing good through my work.
00:35:25
Speaker
And that can take a lot of different forms and it doesn't have to be social impact TM, right? This doesn't have to be, you know, whatever it is, a B Corp with the the official B Corp kind of a thing. It can be a different kind of an organization that is also doing socially good work. And I i honestly think that's the only way this moves forward and this broadens is that we get, how many clients do you get who come to you who say, I want to work for the Gates Foundation? And it's like, okay, good. Like, great. That's fine. You can you can work for them. They have a handful of jobs and they're sunsetting at some point soon, which is probably a good thing. And great. Like, good good luck. Go for that. You know, I want to work for UN system. It's like, okay, that's a...
00:36:09
Speaker
It's tall order these days. And do you really want to do that? ah Are there better uses of your your time and efforts than trying to fight other people to get into these spaces and instead broadening this out? And i just think of the people that The people who have worked with this past year, year and a half, too, of just the types of different spaces they've landed in of, you know, a local environmental nonprofit that's, that's um you know, reasonably small and is doing a lot of great work.
00:36:41
Speaker
on the ground, a director of community outreach for a cancer center for ah a health system, a you know, biotech companies, places that are bringing, help someone out who is who is now bringing sleep apnea machines worldwide to people who need them. And it's just all of these different spaces that people don't think about that can only come from having a more broad and more expansive view of this. And that's something that I'm definitely the most excited about. It's something I do.
00:37:09
Speaker
No, I love that. Related to that, though, I do have a beef with organizations who push themselves as purpose-driven, mission-oriented, when actually what their work is doing is furthering the climate crisis. So I also want to push my organizations. The greenwashing thing, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:30
Speaker
Just for for people, who i think a lot of people listening will understand that, but what what does that look like? What does that kind of fake social impact coding look like for places? Oh my goodness. Okay, let's let's think of it this way. um Let's talk about AI, right? So since AI is like so topical and and people know about it. So AI might say we are enabling more people to have access to information. and this is like, that makes us purpose-oriented or mission-driven or whatever you want to call it, like whatever buzzword they want to fill in. um But at the same time, ai is also, unfortunately, like taking in a lot of fresh water from communities and it's it's furthering the climate crisis for for some communities around the world.
00:38:12
Speaker
And so can you call yourself purpose-driven? Can you call yourself mission-oriented as an organization when when that's what you're doing? Another example that comes to my mind is like when airlines say that they are, know, they're mission-driven because they're connecting people around the world together. They're, you know, like some sometimes seen ad or something like that. um And I'm just like, well, yeah, but what about the fuel that you're wasting? What about like all the all the all the various things that go into your business, right? um And don't know. I'm curious, what are what are your thoughts? do you Do you think about things that way?
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's it I think there's a realness to this that needs to be brought back in. And I think that's kind of the, it's everything in this space, right? Like there was this wave of performative social impact for so long that was, I want to get into social impact so that I can be better than you, right? Like I'm i'm a better person than you because I'm in social impact.
00:39:06
Speaker
And you're just a ah less than person who's not in social impact. And then I think, companies but you know probably smartly but you know not not properly picked up on this in terms of okay we have to kind of like shape what we do into being this worthwhile and good cause even if it's not and kind of can cynically do that too of um you know i i i do um some but lots of different work but like one of one of them is um reviewing applications for a big fellowship program and there'll be people who
00:39:38
Speaker
apply as, you know, the corporate social responsibility person for a data center. And it's like, yeah you know, but I don't know here, like this is, it's calling itself corporate social responsibility.
00:39:51
Speaker
It's saying that it is this, but is this doing more harm than good? And it probably is. And like, what does that look like across the board? And, you know, i I kind of like the real social impact people, no matter what they call themselves, more than the fake social impact people when it's pretty clear that what they're doing is doing more harm than good.
00:40:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's so interesting. I feel like that's a that's a topic of its own. From your background doing these corporate talent acquisition and these workforce development programs, what is it that you've you've learned from those places that still informs what you're doing today with on purpose careers?
00:40:33
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm going to give you a little bit of a background first. So my first job out of college was to work at a career center. um So I've been doing or been in this world for a while, 17, 18 years, started as a career advising and then moved into the nonprofit sector, worked more on workforce development, thinking a lot about like how economic mobility and how do people move around.
00:40:52
Speaker
And then did some, you know, workforce partnerships from the talent acquisition side of a corporate organization. And so what I did is I connected those pieces together to say, okay, all of these great organizations exist in this ecosystem in workforce development that are preparing, you know, folks for careers and a lot of talent acquisition at the time DEI was a hot topic. and Unfortunately, it's no longer, you know, something that people want to talk about.
00:41:16
Speaker
But the time, it that was, a you know, front and forward. and that was like the main cause. And that's like something that people were championing. And so what we were doing is to say, actually, DEI can be informed by connecting to these great organizations. And, you know, we developed this like tech, what did we call it? We called it a junior technology associate program.
00:41:36
Speaker
you know, just for short, but the idea was to say, there are all these technology associate programs that exist. And we're usually hiring like someone with a bachelor's of science and computer science, right? And the truth is, the reality is that universities are actually producing less and less ah computer science graduates. And so there aren't enough folks who are interested in that as a career or as a subject.
00:41:59
Speaker
for us to fill the roles and and the positions we will have coming up. And so then there are all these nonprofit organizations that have formed like Merit America, Perscola's Generation. They have all these great technology programs, right, to fill in this like entry level area, which can eventually then upscale further and move into more technology related leadership roles.
00:42:20
Speaker
So we we developed a program, we thought about what the scope would be. And then because of my knowledge of the sector, I was like able to connect this employer to to these communities. And now that program still exists and it's ever growing, which is so great to see, right? But that's like one piece that that I was able to do there.
00:42:38
Speaker
And then now how that informs my work today, i would say, you know, I think having seen the recruiting world, having seen how these these partnerships and these strategies come into play behind the scenes, I think one thing I've noticed is if you can get the main team, the main person, the main department, say if it's technology or if it's marketing, whatever innovative thing you want to do with hiring, get them on board.
00:43:01
Speaker
First, I think recruiting HR, talent acquisition ah definitely has a place to, you know, ah a space there also at the table ah for that conversation. But I think you need to get like the end goal, the end person excited. You need to get that department excited about like, what is it going to do for them, for their department, for their team, for their future? um And then same thing that I inform a lot of job seekers is to say, apply through the means, apply through the process, go through the systems that that are in place, ah HR, recruiters, whatever, all that, right? We love them.
00:43:31
Speaker
But how are you also directly connecting with the people that you're going to be working with in the future? right Are you meeting them at conferences? Are you networking actively? How are you reaching out to them? What solutions are you so like coming up with for the problems that you see that they're having? And if you're not if you're if the only person you're connecting that with is ah HR and recruiting, unfortunately, that's not their problem. Their problem is hiring someone. So that's that's like one way that informs how I how i think about careers and how I talk to people. It's so right. It's so right. And getting involved in these spaces and really understanding...
00:44:05
Speaker
what the what the challenges are there and what the opportunities are there and meeting people and all of this is so critical. And yeah, it's it's it's um Spencer Campbell, who I do a lot of work with on on different things. he He talks about this as a sort of um arrogance in some ways from people that, you know, it can sound like it's, um you know, not that, but it's it's really, i'm what I want to go into a new space and I want you to give me a job there. And I don't want to know anything about it. I just want to look it up online and I don't want to be involved in it and i don't want to give back to it at all and ah all this kind of stuff. And I think there's something to that of this idea that there's a humility to networking in a positive some way that is volunteer at a conference, serve on a board, volunteer for, you know, some sort of a project where you can you can show people
00:44:59
Speaker
what you can do you can apply your skills to it all of this kind of stuff just really get enmeshed in in this new space that you're you're going after and start adding value right away and don't don't wait for other people to give you that that blessing of that job and it's amazing what that can do even just to you know still most people i think get it through applying but even just being able to speak that language a lot better understanding the different organizations in that space. It all comes from exactly what you've described here.
00:45:29
Speaker
So one thing that I think you do exceptionally well among among your many talents is in uncovering remote work. And I know that this has been there's been this pendulum swing in a lot of ways after the pandemic away from global remote opportunities in the the same way that they were available.
00:45:50
Speaker
I would be very interested you can share with listeners what your current read is of the remote job marketplace for social impact work and how to go about finding these kind of opportunities? Yeah, absolutely. So I so we we run a job board at on purpose careers.org, right? and And that job board is probably our most popular service or one of the things that we offer. And the job board at any given time usually has like 130 140 150 jobs posted. And one thing i'll I'll kind of mention is we look at a very specific slice of the market, right? I'm only looking at
00:46:22
Speaker
nonprofit social impact roles that are remote and that pay 80K and above. So nothing below that level has to be remote and falls into the sector.
00:46:33
Speaker
And i did some analysis of all the roles that I had like found just this past year, right? So just just from Q1, January through March this year, i was able to find over a thousand jobs that I posted the job board.
00:46:45
Speaker
So if I was able to find how many jobs that are remote and social impact, paying that that like that salary. I think that that means that the sector in all is doing pretty good. like There are lots of jobs out there. and So that's a narrative that I want to challenge for a lot of people. I think like, yes, it's hard to be a job seeker and that's a completely different conversation.
00:47:04
Speaker
But the market isn't doing as bad as we think it is. if you If you're out there searching and you're looking, you'll see that there are lots of roles. There are lots of jobs. Yes, they're closing faster than they used to. And and again, that's a whole different conversation. So the remote roles. So looking on at all that, I would just say...
00:47:20
Speaker
there are more remote roles than I anticipated. There are more remote roles than I thought there would be when I set out doing this. and And I think a lot of them are actually in social impact, which is so interesting. There are a lot of nonprofit organizations that are thinking about this in a very innovative, forward thinking way now, thanks to perhaps 2020 and COVID. But it has changed the way we operate. It has changed the way we think about work I think the nonprofit social impact organizations and people tend to be more like flexible minded anyway for the individual.
00:47:52
Speaker
So it's not this idea of you must be in your seat nine to five and collaborate with everyone on site and on campus. It's more of a we understand that, you know, your life, things happen and you might need to step away for a little bit or whatever. And flexibility is is so important. um And so I just think that Social impact folks tend to be like-minded in that way, that that we know and we want similar things ah for our staff and for ourselves. And so I think because of that, there are there just tend to be more roles that are remote.
00:48:24
Speaker
Are you seeing the same thing? What are you seeing for remote roles? So i've I've definitely seen... Fewer than before, but I i think that a big reason that I wanted to talk to you was I think you uniquely do a great job of surfacing these for people. So it is hardening in a lot of ways to see that it's not as dire as people think of that. There's no more remote roles.
00:48:46
Speaker
I am curious, that what like where do you, as much as you can bring behind the curtain on on purpose, and i'd definitely encourage people to to follow along with you and and see these roles, but like how do you go about finding these? Where do you look?
00:48:59
Speaker
Yeah, a lot of them are actually shared in our networks, right? So if you think about LinkedIn, just as an example, you probably log in and you can probably see all the people in your network that are sharing jobs. They're like, we're hiring on our team, we're hiring on our team, which is so good to see. I also think that that's part of training your algorithm on LinkedIn to be able to see those things.
00:49:19
Speaker
A little bit of a side note, but I think sometimes when I work with job seekers, I encourage them to go and search for keywords that say hiring and perhaps nonprofit or whatever your topic might be and start engaging because you're teaching LinkedIn to then show you more of those things instead of interacting with you know, any, anything that you're feeling like is LinkedIn is currently giving you now. So if it's giving you a lot of doom and gloom and politics and layoff stories and how like the world is coming to an end, stop interacting with that and start interacting with what you actually want to see more of, right? I don't want to say like, don't ignore everything that's happening and just focus on the good because that's also problematic. But what I'm trying to say is LinkedIn specifically as a network where you can find jobs and find people, perhaps it might be worth it to train your algorithm to find you more jobs.
00:50:05
Speaker
So that's what I've done, right. And I feel like I'm able to surface a lot of things. and And I have a broad network because of the work I've done. And so whenever I see opportunities, I try to surface them on our job board to say like, this was just highlighted. Our job board only highlights jobs for two weeks at a time.
00:50:19
Speaker
Right. So that's another thing. because the market is moving really fast. um So if you are finding a job, if you saw someone who posted something, you'll you'll notice that four days later, if you saved it, it's gone, it's no longer active. And so for our job seekers who are following us, and we have like 50,000 people checking out our job board per month, right? So there are a lot of people looking at these things. And and I want to share jobs that are fresh and still hiring and posted recently. And again, following those those three things that I mentioned, right? So social...
00:50:48
Speaker
social impact, remote and high paying. And so that's, that's kind of the the process there. And then look at other other, you know, um ways of searching for jobs to so LinkedIn is one, i mean, indeed, in Google search, and there's just all these like places where you can go and see like, what's being surfaced today. And so it's a combination of that. But I would say it's pretty heavily reliant on on my network.
00:51:09
Speaker
Yeah. And it's something I think about a lot with job seekers too is, um, when something is, is publicly available on one of like the more obvious job boards, not necessarily yours or some of these, these more in niche ones, but like what something is publicly available, it's probably not the kind of job that's going to be particularly interesting or compelling. They're basically saying,
00:51:33
Speaker
we don't know who to get for this or we don't really care who to get for this a lot of the time. And it's, if you can find it easily or if you can think of, even think of the organization off the top of your head, there's going lot of people applying for and going after those and the individual connections who you who you have who are part of your network who are sharing these opportunities I think are a ah really rich source of this. that That's really interesting that this is often where you're finding it is the people who are saying like my team is hiring for this or my friends at whatever is hiring for a great list. You know anyone who would do this and
00:52:06
Speaker
bringing that up. Yeah, so I was gonna say another layer to that is I focus on jobs where that are organizations that aren't as well known, right? So nothing like the Gates Foundation that we were just talking about, like everyone wants to apply for those jobs. But perhaps there are these like, hidden organizations and these like other other other parts of the social impact sector that like maybe a lot of people don't know about but still pays really well and the work is really exciting and happens to be remote. So those are the types of jobs I get really excited to share and showcase on our job board.
00:52:35
Speaker
Again, just a remarkable job with doing this. I would very much encourage people to follow along with with this. And a really good point on training the algorithm. And it's yeah it's something that that I don't think about often, honestly, of like, what are you what are you putting into this thing? And what does this...
00:52:51
Speaker
than spitting back out to you in terms of LinkedIn. And it's um it's huge, right? Because there's so much garbage on LinkedIn. And there's so much great stuff on LinkedIn. And it's this kind of the the best and the worst of everything in the world is on this as a platform. And what are you kind of looking at with it?
00:53:09
Speaker
So some of these um specific kind of subsectors I think are particularly interesting for people that I've been working with. So we've we've gone over workforce, Democracy and justice, you mentioned as well.
00:53:22
Speaker
Is that global? Is that U.S.? Is that country specific? And like, what what do you see that kind of looking like? I know some people have had a hard time with figuring out if I don't come from like an activist background or I don't come from a political background, how can I get involved in democracy and justice kind of work?
00:53:40
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a good question. i mean, i think part of the reason we're seeing a lot more the democracy and justice and organizing jobs right now is because we're in an election cycle year, right? And so that's why everything's popping up now as the summer is approaching and then there will be a lot more messaging and organizing out there. I think for anyone who is interested in that type of work i think part of it it just connects to the topics that you've been working in right and how do you how do you say like how can i bring this knowledge and this awareness of this community that i have to this part of this work right so climate and climate tech and all of this kind of stuff any thoughts on what's what's trending right now in that like where where there's more jobs fewer jobs that kind of a thing
00:54:25
Speaker
Yeah, I guess like right now I'm seeing a lot of network activator jobs in climate and environment, which is good to see. i think climate environment had a bit of a pause probably, you know, most of last year, but then I feel like it started emerging more as a topic in jobs that at least I was tracking. January, February, March has been continuous and there have been more and more opportunities, which has been really good. But yeah, anyone who can... be more strategic, be a connector, be that person who can manage this ecosystem of of thought leaders. um I feel like that job seems to be in demand right now. at least that's the topic that keeps coming up.
00:55:01
Speaker
Yeah. And AI and all of that kind of world, what do you what do you see in terms of actual kinds of roles and organizations and things for that? Yeah, researchers, ethics, policy, people who can work with government representatives, um whether it's federal or state. I feel like that's that's where it's going, at least now.
00:55:24
Speaker
At least that's what I'm seeing. No, it's all all really helpful. I know some people have a particular interest in these. and Yeah. Yeah, this is really, really useful for them. What books are, it doesn't have to be books, but any resources of any kind do you find yourself using to stay up to date? Do you recommend to other people the most? What does that that whole kind of thing look like? Yeah, sure. well when it comes to careers and values exploration, i definitely recommend people look up Jonathan Fields and Sparktype and just this idea of your paid work is like one part of your life and there are all these other domains and how do those things connect. So that's more of the careers and values exploration kind of work that I do.
00:56:03
Speaker
This is odd, but I actually really like to read books about marketing in general. And I feel like you can take some of those lessons and apply them to you as a job seeker. Right now I'm reading it's called This is Marketing by Seth Godin. And it's it's really helpful because it's it's just this idea of, i think going back to the conversation we were having about like how do you help someone else? How are you going to solve someone else's problem instead of kind of like taking? So I think applying that lens of like, okay, I'm actually marketing myself, not an organization or not a business. But then how am I applying the same principles to my job search or my network? I really like that kind of stuff.
00:56:39
Speaker
I love reading actually like memoirs of people who have weird careers or have taken like, you know, different paths. I just finished reading Anna Garten's ah memoir. And I think like, i don't know if you know about her, but she was like working as a nuclear policy analyst in DC before she became this like beloved, you know, food, you know, the celebrity and this person. And so I love that I love reading about like, what was this the the moment that they decided to switch to something completely different? um And how did that go for them? What were all the what were all the failures and the the things that happened before they made it big, right? And I think applying, giving people that that sense of insight of like, this happened for this famous person, it can probably happen to you in a very similar way. Maybe you might not be a famous, you know, foodie, but perhaps, Perhaps as you switch your career, you'll notice that yeah maybe there's a bit of a setback, but there will be and a forward trajectory again. We're a big Einergarden household and it's a really cool story. it's
00:57:36
Speaker
It's amazing. it It goes along with a lot of what we've been talking about, right? of this um And Seth Godin too. and everything It's just... um Yeah. how do you How do you think creatively, expansively, value add, all of this kind of stuff? And then how does this fit with the life you want to live? And how do you bring all of this together? And it's much easier said than done, but I think it's a better challenge than, you know, how do I kind of um beat out other people for the limited role at at this one place that I've decided I need to work to, you know, do what I want to do. And it's just, it's such a limited mindset and there can be such a better, more expensive way. And I mean, what what you and I are each doing is not something that is, um you can't apply to do that, right? there's There's nothing you can apply for that does that. And I think the the space is going more and more in in that way too of um these kind of interesting portfolio careers, interesting entrepreneurial journeys, interesting roles that are kind of co-created and co-shaped and all of this kind of stuff rather than this um doggy dog kind of competition for something where you're trying get ahead of other people, force other people out.
00:58:50
Speaker
i love that. Naveed, this has been such a great conversation. How can listeners learn more about you, about On Purpose Careers, and follow along if they'd like? Yeah, absolutely. You can follow along. um I'm on LinkedIn, pretty active. Naveed, Lada, find me there. and You can follow our job board. It's at onpurposecareers.org slash job board. We also have a coaching directory there if you are looking for more career coaching resources.
00:59:14
Speaker
um So all of that exists there. But you can definitely follow me on LinkedIn. I feel like LinkedIn is probably the best way to keep up with what's going on. Okay, great. Well, thank you so much again for joining us. This has been a hugely valuable conversation for listeners and leaving me excited about the the future of of this space and the future of this expanded space as well. So thank you so much.