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Spencer Campbell on Bad Job Search Advice, What to Do Instead, and How to Improve the Hiring Process
127 Plays9 months ago
Spencer Campbell (linkedin.com/in/spencer-campbell-impact, spencercampbelltalent.com), Founder and Principal Talent Agent of the Spencer Campbell Talent Agency, joins host Dan Freehling (contempusleadership.com) to discuss the modern job search. Spencer’s innovative business model involves acting as a talent agent for job seekers, providing advice, support, and representation to help them succeed in interviews and negotiations. Dan and Spencer discuss a program they're piloting called Heightened Impact, which combines high-quality coaching with expert talent representation to enhance value for job seekers. Spencer emphasizes the importance of networking and understanding one's value in the job search process, rather than focusing solely on polishing resumes. He criticizes conventional advice about job searching and highlights common mistakes job seekers make. Spencer and Dan also improvements to the hiring process, trends in the social sector career space and the potential impact of AI on the job market. Recommended Reading: “Hidden Potential” by Adam Grant, “Never Search Alone” by Phil Terry, “What Color is Your Parachute” by Richard Nelson Bolles, “How to Do Nothing” by Jenny Odell, and “The Good Enough Job” by Simone Stolzoff. Show notes at forwardlookingleadership.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to Forward-Looking Leadership, a podcast for visionary leaders building future-ready organizations. I'm your host, Dan Freeling.
Meet Dan Freeling
00:00:09
Speaker
I'm the founder of the Kojika Consulting practice, Contepis Leadership, developing the leaders and teams you want and charge through cutting-edge approaches and common sense solutions.
Guest Introduction: Spencer Campbell
00:00:17
Speaker
I'm honored to be joined today by Spencer Campbell. Spencer is the founder and principal talent agent of the Spencer Campbell Talent Agency. He brings a wealth of talent acquisition expertise, having led recruitment innovation at the Social Enterprise One Acre Fund, and most recently serving as VP for Talent and Acquisition at a global education organization.
00:00:35
Speaker
Spencer and I met through Nick Marden, who anyone in the Social Impact career space should be following on LinkedIn, and have been thought partners and collaborators since.
Heightened Impact Program Overview
00:00:42
Speaker
Most recently, Spencer and I joined forces to create a program called Heightened Impact, which is successfully nearing the end of its pilot phase and will get into in the episode. Listeners, whether you're in the job market or looking to advance your career or help others do so as a leader, mentor, coach, this conversation will be chock full of insights and expertise. Thanks for joining me on Forward-Looking Leadership, Spencer. Hey, Dan. Yeah, thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Awesome. I'm so glad we finally got the opportunity to do this. So first, I genuinely love innovative business models and I feel like your business is an exemplar of that. I'd love for you to explain to listeners what the talent agency concept entails.
Innovative Talent Representation
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, of course, my pleasure. In in most sectors, the recruiters, the people who you know interview you, screen you for a job, they work for the employer. They get paid when you get a job or you know they're they're just on the payroll of large employers.
00:01:35
Speaker
And so you as the job seeker, you're the product, not the customer. But in a few industries, you know, Hollywood is a good example, professional sports, in the literary world, it's talent that pays. You know, ah talent is represented by agents who do the heavy lifting of finding opportunities for their clients. And, you know, lots of people can hire a career coach or, you know, a resume writer, but With the talent agency, I wanted to bring something more like Hollywood style talent representation to the people in my niche, you know, folks in social impact. So when I take someone on board as a client, I represent them. I take them to people in my network who I think could, could, who should hire them. And, um, I, I, I pitch them and try to make a match. And I also advise and support my clients so they can do their best on the interviews and get what they deserve in the negotiation. And, um,
00:02:31
Speaker
It's been a wild ride. You know, I had no idea if it was going to work. It really was a bit of a change of pace compared to um what other people were doing but there's been a great response to it and I think job seeking really can be demoralizing and difficult and having someone who's on your side as a not just a coach or an expert but someone who's really you know going to bat for you ah directly it's it's really quite powerful and and it's something that I found a lot of people are are interested in and and willing to pay for even
00:03:02
Speaker
It's just such a great opportunity for people to have somebody fully looking out for them. And I just love what you're doing with it. And I think just the innovative thinking on it of of how can I make this better, especially in a space where there's there's so much that doesn't really work for job seekers out there is so important and so impactful. So just highly recommend everyone checks that out if you're at all looking to be in the the job market and in the social impact space.
Heightened Impact: Coaching & Representation
00:03:28
Speaker
Spencer, you and I have a ah program that we're nearing the end of of piloting called heightened impact. So i'm I'm happy to chime in on some of the backgrounds on that um as well. But I'd love for you to to give your your ah quick pitch on on what that is and how we came about to do that. Yeah. So really with heightened impact, it was well from from my end,
00:03:51
Speaker
What I found is that i I really was a good advisor, consultant, um representative for my clients, but I found that a lot of people I was working with, they really did have some issues ah or needs that um working with a really excellent executive coach would help them address. They didn't know what they wanted to do. It wasn't a question about the market, but something internally. and um i I find just for anyone listening to this, if that that that could be that is often a ah challenge for job seekers is that it's not really about the job market. It's not where you fit in. It's something internal. What do I really want? What should I do with my life? What will make me happy at work?
00:04:35
Speaker
um where do I really belong? These are things that, you know, actually, you don't need an agent to discuss what you need as a really great coach. So with heightened impact, the idea was could we bring together high quality coaching, great, you know, Hollywood style talent representation, put both of those things together, and see if it could, you know, supercharge the the value of this for the people who sign up and I don't know, anyway, we'll come back to this. ah Can't share a whole lot today, but I've just been really um impressed by ah putting these things together, what it what it means for the for the folks who who participate. It really does, you know,
Program Success and Collaboration
00:05:14
Speaker
it's chocolate plus peanut butter, it's two tastes, two different tastes that taste better together. i love me I'll leave it there.
00:05:21
Speaker
yeah there's There's something about I think like the the recruiting job expert types like yourself. I think there's there's kind of this idea in that space where it's, you know, that what people really need is tactical, you know, hands-on advice from real experts. And I think from my space, from the coaching space, there's a lot of people who are saying basically, you know, that the materials don't matter, the expertise doesn't matter. It's only what you what you can do internally. And I think when you combine Those two rather than having that be in one person who does a little bit of each kind of badly when you can combine ah a great coach and a great job search expert um like we have it's it's a huge value at for clients so we're we're super excited to be able to share the the results and outcome of that very shortly ah with with people but wanted to at least talk that through but today and just give people a heads up of of what we're doing in that area.
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, definitely watch this space. I think it it really has succeeded beyond ah my expectations and something I'm eager to ah you know to continue moving forward. it is really It's two different sets of skills. And so when you when you have um both of those sets of expertise at your disposal as a job seeker, as someone who's really trying to figure out their next steps, it it can unlock some things that would be hard to unlock any other way. That's what we've seen so far. Anyway, yeah watch the space, watch my website, and watch Dan's for details on this. Absolutely, great. it It's been so cool to see that come to fruition, so more to come.
Common Misconceptions in Job Searching
00:06:58
Speaker
What conventional advice about the job search process do you just straight up disagree with?
00:07:04
Speaker
so many things and I appreciate you asking this question because i I just feel like we're awash and sort of bad advice and um I will try not to add anything to that pile and if I can help it but your mileage may vary I can't speak for all industries all recruiters but my background is in talent acquisition and I was a a recruiter. I worked in recruiting innovations for a firm in a number of years, which meant my my job was to make the the recruiting process better, you know, better for candidates, cheaper, easier for hiring managers, more effective at putting the right butts in seats. And so I've just seen a lot of recruiting processes, you know, half a million resumes, part of hundreds of hires, interviewed thousands of people, like, and
00:07:52
Speaker
hired a lot of recruiters and talked a lot with recruiters over the years about the the business and nature strategy of recruiting. So I know a little bit about about what I'm about to share. And that's one of the key things that I see is that a lot of this advice is not really rooted in real expertise. You know, um it's a lot of the things that people share, it's sort of ah rooted in in some other source and i I'll talk a little bit about this and in just a second about why I feel like a lot of this stuff circulates, but I think a lot of people just don't really understand how recruiting works and it's sort of a mystery and when you don't really know anybody who purports to tell you what's going on you just want to listen to what they have to say and so
00:08:41
Speaker
The big one that I see a lot, which I just just think is total nonsense, is anything that has to do with AI or the ATS, the applicant tracking system being used against you. There is very little magic in a recruiting process. you know You hit submit on your resume, it ends up in someone's inbox, more or less. And sometimes it gets read, sometimes it doesn't but overwhelmingly it's a person who's on the other side of this it's just a person probably someone very junior maybe someone an outsourced laborer from the philippines maybe a you know a stressed out overworked hr manager
00:09:21
Speaker
Maybe it's someone who doesn't really have a deep understanding of what you do, but it is a person. And so if you want to get your materials read more often, the thing is not to try to beat the robots, beat the AI. Those things don't really exist, not in the way that you might imagine. If you want to get your materials read, you need to write something that's very readable. you know Make it a joy to read, easy to scan, easy to engage with, free of jargon. you know, show it to your mom. And if she basically can understand what you're about, you have moved in the right direction. So any advice that runs counter to that is just rooted in nonsense and probably designed to sell you something that you don't really need because you really won't write your way to a new job.
Networking vs. Resume Perfection
00:10:03
Speaker
I think um this is the other number one piece of you know misinformation out there. A well-written resume is probably not going to make a large marginal impact on your job hunt.
00:10:16
Speaker
compared to some of the other things you could do with the time that would take to rewrite your materials. You probably aren't spending nearly enough time figuring out where you should apply. and having conversations with people who could help you address that ah that question. People understand the value of networking, but I think a lot of people don't understand exactly what networking and is. It's not really badgering your friends for a job to hire you or to to make a referral. Although if you you see someone, if you know someone at a firm their company is hiring, never hurts to ask and often
00:10:53
Speaker
they can get a referral bonus, they can get a little bit of money for um encouraging you to apply, and maybe sharing a few things about your um about your profile. But really the kind of networking that's more valuable is no more open-ended conversations with people in your network who may help you find you know the the job that's a good fit for you. ah We live in very, very so ah so specialized economy. You know, you're probably an expert in something really, really, really specific. And even if you apply for jobs with the same title or sort of similar job description, it may be that you aren't as well qualified for that job as you think. And so just finding the right line to stand in.
00:11:37
Speaker
is not a trivial problem for most job seekers. And I feel like a lot of the advice that's given to job seekers sort of over, um kind of glosses over this point. and um And yeah, I think this is really a place where it where where it makes sense for job seekers to spend the time having those conversations, figuring out where you fit in. So talking to other people in your industry about um the work that they do and people they know that they think you should connect with. understanding how does your industry work? Who are the different players ah in your specific niche? um Who are the folks upstream and downstream from you? who are the
00:12:18
Speaker
you know who's in government, who what what is that the what does it look like? What does your space really look like? And people that you've worked with, you know who are a little bit ahead of you in your career, where are they at now? What was their story? What was their they're um progression? These are things that are hugely useful to you, probably much more useful than working on your resume in terms of connecting you to to a wealth a well position. And I just don't see job seekers spending the energy and time on these on the on these things. you know They tend to get distracted. They tend to, if I just keep polishing my resume, I keep applying to another job, that's the thing that's going to, I spend another hour on social media, on LinkedIn, looking at at jobs. That's probably not the best use of your time. And I just don't think that this gets the emphasis that it deserves.
Productivity in Job Searching
00:13:10
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you and I have talked about this a lot on even on joint events, and there's this feeling productive versus being productive in the job search. And I think the resume, you know, obsession is is such a ah feeling productive thing, the applying to as many jobs as you can, even if they're not a great fit, is the feeling productive thing rather than the being productive. aspect, which is that that deep networking. You did mention on some of this bad advice out there. What do you think that's rooted in? Why why is there so much terrible advice on LinkedIn and other places that people just really fall for a lot?
00:13:45
Speaker
Well, I have a cynical, let me deal with the cynical and non-cynical answer on like that. phrase yeah The cynical answer is that, well, okay, everything is a market. LinkedIn is a market for information. And so who is who has incentive to generate content? It's people who ultimately will monetize that content. and Job seeking is a massive pain point if you just make up something and say hey buy my Product for $99 and it will solve all your job seeking woes. That's a really effective sales pitch and so and the job seeker isn't really in a place to um You know push back on that to complain and you know, you're you're you they don't know if you know what you're talking about or not there's no sort of LinkedIn police to keep those bad actors off and so if you just
00:14:32
Speaker
You just say whatever you want, right? it's ah it If it doesn't work, you probably end up blaming yourself as a job seeker rather than saying, hey, I got sold a bill of goods by this person. You know you you feel bad about it, which you shouldn't. you know um So I do think there's just like, given the nature of the job market, given given how much job seeking sucks, it's really um easy for for bad actors to put in to to just sell you on ideas that that don't really work ah and promise you sort of um you know it's all snake oil sort of has the same economic thing you know uh promise people the moon for very low cost and um ah anyway and and and hope they don't they don't get wise to it um after the sale i i think that that's the most cynical version of it i think this is probably rooted in things that um
00:15:24
Speaker
Nobody can can can sell you on something without your cooperation. And I think a lot of these ideas persist because these are sort of ego-protecting fantasies. So if you believe that you know robots or AI is keeping your resume out of the hands of people who would read it, and if only you know you could get past those evil gatekeepers to to get them in their hands, That is, that takes the responsibility off of you to find the right job. Now suddenly this is someone else's fault. It's not your problem anymore. You don't have to find the right job. This is, you have externalized this. And so that's a little bit easier for most of us to swallow, right? um You know, some of this stuff, I've seen, we did talk about this the last question, but there's been some advice circulating, which I just think is completely insane about, um
00:16:15
Speaker
you know, if you're asked to produce something as part of the the recruitment process, they want to see like a written exercise or something, they want you to submit a deliverable, that they're not really sincere. There are people out there just trying to steal your good ideas. And we would always find this hilarious as recruiters that this idea would circulate as much as it did because it's sort of Not that you you work really hard on this stuff, and it's not to minimize what job seekers submit when they're asked to do these things. But you take the Hollywood example again, you know, all these actors show up to auditions, they record audition tapes, and, you know, 30 people show up for the audition, they shoot the tape, only one of them is hired gets the role.
00:16:58
Speaker
And now you have 29 other tapes. They're not making a movie out of those tapes. And and it's the same thing in your your your process, right? Nobody is trying to steal your ideas. They are worth shockingly little to the employer beyond evaluating whether you're a good fit for the role. There just isn't much they can do with them. But telling yourself that like oh there were you know they they didn't really want my ideas, they were just trying to steal them, that is a much easier pill to swallow for the average human being. right That feels so much better to leave the job hunt saying, well, like I guess what I submitted wasn't up to par, wasn't what they were looking for. That that can hurt. you know that that might And so it makes sense for us to turn away from that and to into go to an idea which is,
00:17:44
Speaker
you know from my perspective as a recruiter has who's seen these exercise being submitted, that's utterly nonsense. I don't know a single person who is who's operating that way. Could someone in the history of you know time have you know harvested candidate exercise? Maybe, I guess. I've never seen it in the time I've worked in the sector. and it's The people I've seen who get most worked up about this, um you know it's folks who are just feeling defensive in the process, which is very natural. We connect our identity a lot to what we do, and you know putting all this time, submitting something and having it fall short, that that's a lot. you know And I think we we tend to underestimate how
00:18:24
Speaker
how much, how emotional, how um you know traumatic some of this stuff can be. And so it makes sense that people want to protect their ego. They want to protect themselves from from feeling sort of battered by the process. And I do think that almost all of the wrong ideas about recruiting, they have some sort of root in um in in something that is just easier for job seekers to swallow rather than the truth, which may be a little bit a little bit harder to to to take on board.
Vulnerability in Job Seekers
00:18:53
Speaker
I'll stop there. I think you're you're so right on all of that. Yeah, there's there's not this harvesting operation of out of context job application exercises. It's just so and so ludicrous. But i think I think you're so right about that. of it's It's such a vulnerable place to be to be on the job market and and looking. And I think a lot of people, winningly or unwittingly, take advantage of that and tell people either what they wish was true or what
00:19:24
Speaker
candidates want to hear, but not actually the tough love message of what's really needed to get a job search over the finish line. And it's there's there's no prize for winning second place in a job search, right? Like you have to actually land the role and that more often than not comes from your professional reputation, from your networks, from really having a ah strong fit with the role and so much less from all of these things that that feel good and give you that kind of quick win feeling that people just really fall for and in my experience. And it's it's even really strong professionals who
00:20:04
Speaker
come out and just just really fall for this. And I think it is tied into that identity and tied into that ego. And it's such a it's such a harder pitch for people like you and me to be saying, you know, ah honestly, you should be focused more on figuring out what you what you really bring to the table in terms of value, figuring out who you should network with in a non-transactional way. really going out and and doing the kind of things that don't have immediate payoffs but that put you in the right you know the right lines to your your previous metaphor. um It's much easier to say, you know follow my my seven-step process and it'll get you a job. and it's just ah It's a tough one, but I hope that people are starting to get wise to it or at least the the kind of sharp people who are operating at ah at a bit of a higher level in terms of their job search are getting wise to it.
00:20:53
Speaker
I think that's that's right. we all want sort of It's natural to want a quick fix. It's natural to want something easy and painless. you know um These are tried and true techniques to to sell anything. And I think for me, because of the way this business is structured, yeah I have very little incentive to you know be anything but truthful. and and i think it's ah Because only get paid when we win. I only get paid when they get the job. so if anything, my incentives are to go the other way. you know It's like to really get people into this very practical sort of, let's figure this out, let's solve this thing, let's let's confront the you know the tough issues directly, because that's the thing that's ultimately gonna eventually get you hired.
Self-Advocacy for Job Seekers
00:21:35
Speaker
And I think for anyone who's listening to this, who's on the job hunt, you're in the same boat, right? Like you only get paid when you win, right? And so I think for job seekers, even though it may be uncomfortable in the moment to to grapple with some of this stuff,
00:21:48
Speaker
Eventually you will have to, right? Unless you have an unlimited you know pool of money behind you, the the quicker you can really sort of get a handle on where you are in the market, what's working, what's not, where do you fit in, who can help me, the quicker you answer those questions, the quicker you can end your search. I share all this freely with as many people as I can because I i do think this is this really does accelerate it if people can just take a moment, reflect, and um and and and really ah approach this with with sort of love for themselves, but also a little bit of psychological distance. you know you are um You're trying to sell something. You're selling your time, you're selling your attention, you're selling your your network, your expertise, and um it's not you. you know you aren't You will show up to work, but you you're being hired not because of anything about you personally, but because of the skill sets you bring, the strengths you bring,
00:22:39
Speaker
Really try to put some distance between yourself and your you know your work. and b Be your own talent agent. right Advocate for yourself in that way. and um you know if If things don't go your way on a particular job that you're really excited about, it's understandable it really makes sense that that would it would hit you but if you can try to you know take yourself out of out of yourself in those moments and think that was really tough for spencer but i'm sure she'll do better on the next one that was really encouraging to get that far um you know i'm a silver medalist on this thing um and and try to pick that that might help uh folks
00:23:17
Speaker
really dive into this stuff to access some of these things that are so hard to access and and to to grapple with the things that can be hard to grapple with. Just so well said, and I mean, you and I see this this process play out over and over again, and it just helping people to shortcut to the, you know, pass the ego protecting phase and into the the real work of it is a huge value add, just getting to that place of knowing your fit and and really leveraging your background, your connections is is where the the real value is and just get there get there as soon as you can. Totally.
00:23:53
Speaker
So in in addition to this conventional advice that's just way off base, what what mistakes do you see job seekers themselves making a lot of the time?
Mistakes in Job Applications
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I remember I, um, I took on board a client last year and she came to me and showed me her spreadsheet, which was great that she was even tracking because a lot of people, they um they just sort of apply when they see things. And so I think just even even not not tracking your applications. So what did I apply to and what happened with each one of those roles? and
00:24:28
Speaker
any other information that might be relevant in your context to do some analysis. So she had her spreadsheet and she showed me and and she said, you know, I've applied for, it you know, like 100 different jobs and and and nobody has come back to me. You know, I haven't gotten any feedback. And um we looked at this, we looked together what what she was applying for, and she was an impressive individual, someone who was really you know, succeeding in her um her domain. She was ah sort of in the marketing field, or marketing communications. But, you know, she was applying for these roles, which were like, you know, ah I'm anonymizing the story a little bit, just because i ah we're still sort of in in the transition of of of her signing over to this new contract and to spoil the story. But anyway, um she was applying for like, you know,
00:25:18
Speaker
chief VP senior roles that were just out of reach according to where she was in her career. She was ambitious. She was really going places. I knew she was sharp. She interviewed really well. yeah you know She was thorough and in the materials that she had given to me. But there was no way that she was getting hired for for the sort of things that she was applying to. They were just far beyond where she is today. and um For the most part, she was applying cold rather than, you you know, looking, being introduced, you tapping her network, um understanding kind of where where she actually fit in in the talent in the talent space.
00:25:56
Speaker
And so I tell the story because I think she is emblematic of of ah most of the people that I meet in that they're just applying for the wrong jobs. It comes from a good place. it's um It's very understandable. It can be hard to figure out where we fit into the market and to translate our experience to new jobs. But most of us, if you get to 100 jobs applied to and nobody has come back to you, certainly the problem is you're applying for the wrong jobs. No matter how bad your resume is written today, um you should be ah you can aim for much better than one out of 100. So that's a signal from the job market. you know It's a signal that ah what you are doing is maybe um ah not working, right? And um you know this is the other mistake I see is that people say, well, I really want feedback. I never get any feedback. and know I just get ghosted. And um even when I apply, I get something very anodyne. I get thanks, but no thanks. you know
00:26:52
Speaker
I do wish that recruiters were able to give more substantive feedback, but I think what the recruiter says is much less interesting and helpful to you than what they do. You know, the feedback is what happens. So if they don't get back to you within four weeks, assume it's a no. And just look, if you're applying for jobs and um you know, you should see a difference. What are the trends between the people who say yes to you and the people who don't? And that is likely has something to teach you about where the market sees you, where you might fit in. And it's not always um an obvious thing for job seekers to do this analysis themselves to really get their head around this. It's not something that is natural and
00:27:41
Speaker
I think I've been reading some of the research on this and it's because it's very hard to learn from negative feedback. In job searches, it's overwhelmingly negative feedback. so um you know Even a successful search, you're going to apply. It's very rare we see a client who applies for one job and gets it. you know That doesn't do anything else. Not that it never happens, but it's it's definitely the minority of cases. so In most cases, the job search process is mostly made of failure and failure is a hard thing to learn from. And so I think, again, we talked about earlier about the psychological distance and sort of trying to put some separation so you could do some analysis. I would say, um you know, the mistake here might be
00:28:25
Speaker
Continuing to apply, continuing to do the same thing over and over again without really analyzing what's happening. You are getting feedback, feedback you can take on board, you can choose to learn to learn from, if only you you can you can take a look at it. And I think the other thing that we talked about, which is you know why this might happen so often, um It's just a hard thing to hear, right? So often our identity is tied up. And um ah we it can it can be hard to confront that, well, you know, this product manager job at Google or or similar, it's just it's just not on the cards. And and maybe maybe it's going to take a little bit longer to get there than than we
00:29:06
Speaker
than you hoped. And so yeah you know when we think about, it's it's very it's a very natural human um impulse to avoid, to not take on board, to not see, to not understand or grapple with these things which are are are striking at our identity. um But for the recruiter, they they don't see that. you know they don't They're not a part of the the psychodrama. They're just looking at you know the, resumes that have come in and and trying to pick the one which is most aligned to what they're looking for. you know there's No one ah recruiters want you to succeed.
00:29:42
Speaker
and But they're constrained by forces at their organization and and mostly they're just trying to reduce risk You know, they don't want to get yelled at by their by the hiring manager or the CEO or whoever for putting forward a candidate who just isn't a good fit for the job so for the recruiter the the main thing they're trying to do is reduce risk put plausible candidates in front of the hiring committee and um And if you're less plausible than someone else who's applied, you're not going through to the next round. And so this is why this stuff is so important. you know The number one mistake that job seekers make is applying for the wrong jobs.
00:30:17
Speaker
And just on the the opposite side of that, if you're getting feedback that's saying you're at the right level, then listen to that as well. So for example, as Spencer knows very well, but we we we had this wonderful client and at first it was kind of unclear what what level we were targeting, what kind of roles we were targeting with her. And she kept getting interviews, second round, third round, final round for a few seriously high level roles. And that's feedback in itself as well to to stay the course. And one of these will come through. It's just a matter of time. And I think that that's also feedback to be listening to. If your materials are working, it's kind of the the imposter syndrome.
00:31:05
Speaker
idea. But if you're if if people who have all the incentive of the world to hire a person they really want on their team are telling you you're a credible candidate, listen to that as well. 100%. And yeah, I think I've been overly negative. And just to end finish the story with ah the candidate applying for chief marketing officers, you know, ultimately, we started working together, I was able to introduce her to a hiring manager on my network, who absolutely love what she put together, had a track record of hiring, you know, young, ambitious talent, and really you know giving them... When we got down to it, what she didn't want was a huge salary. She wanted a manager who really would take care of her, who would really sponsor her and um look out for her interest and invest time. and that This is someone who I knew really well from my network, and I knew that that was he had a track record of doing exactly that, including the people I had worked with directly in the past. so you know Introducing them, it was really it was a great match. you know What I do is mostly matchmaking, and um ultimately,
00:32:04
Speaker
this role was a little bit of a jump up. It wasn't the enormous jump that maybe she had hoped for at the very beginning of her hunt, hunt but it was still a 20% pay increase, really nice bonus structure. like And with a ah manager who I know is gonna back her for her whole career. And so you know seeing her embrace that, get excited about the role, um you know kind of build momentum for this and realize, oh, this this I can get basically everything that I want here. um if I just make this slight pivot, you know? And and anyway, it's ah it's what I live for the success stories. I live for the the people seeing that, yeah, actually, if I find where I belong, I can get everything I want. And I am good. And there's no such thing as a sympathy hire. People who want you, they interview you, they but hire you for role. It's because you annihilated the recruiting process. You got there through your
00:32:59
Speaker
efforts you got there by being enormously good and beating out maybe hundreds of other candidates to get there. So it's, um oh the when you win, it it really hurts to to to fall short in the process, but man, the highs are so high when that when it goes well. It's so true and like thanks for sharing that for sure. It's important to really know what you're what you're looking for and what your top priorities are in a new role too. And there could be different seasons and in your life where you know maybe this is somewhere you want to be you know making making more money and that's that's the number one thing. Maybe this is somewhere you want to
00:33:41
Speaker
flexible environment and that's the number one thing. and Just really getting clear on that and any trade-offs you're willing to make, I think are also really important for people to keep in mind. Totally. um you can get I find that most job seekers have pretty reasonable expectations. It's rare that I meet someone who's like totally off-base you know relative to the talent market, the value of their skills, but often we can get distracted by things. um People are probably familiar with this research about you know the connection between how much you're paid and how happy you are. and And lots of people have opined on this. But you know if you oftentimes, when we want more money, what we really want is you know recognition, support. We feel like we're not getting what we deserve you know psychologically in our current role. Or you know we feel like our skills are not being fully put to work.
00:34:39
Speaker
you If your money, you know people should prioritize whatever salary. If they want to chase a higher salary, there's no problem with doing that. And if you need more money, you know having a large collection of Gucci bags will really make you as happy as you can be. get Go to maximize the salary that you get. For most people though, other things on the job drive satisfaction in a much deeper way. so often like good colleagues, a great manager, flexibility in how you work, an opportunity to grow and to have real autonomy in your role. These are the things that in the you know social science research we find again and again um drive job satisfaction. And so often the number can be a bit of a distraction. And so sometimes I'm encouraging clients to apply for things that are less generously paid, but
00:35:29
Speaker
you know The manager is great, the mission is great, and the role is going to give them a lot of um opportunity to just be um ah to thrive, to learn, to grow, and into and to have um have autonomy. and i think it's um I really encourage every job seeker to reflect on what do I want from work? What what do I want to get out of it? and um in those reflection exercises is unusual that, um you know, the highest possible salary comes comes to the top of that for in the conversations I've had on this. Yeah, it's all all just so, so important there and would double down on all of that for people.
00:36:08
Speaker
Besides the obvious factors, so you know people work hard and you know have have the right work experience and educational background and all of that, what should hiring managers and executives be looking for in promising social sector talent?
Advice for Hiring Managers
00:36:23
Speaker
OK, so I'm going to give a maybe a spicy take. um And maybe this will be surprising given that this conversation has gone before. When I was hiring for my own teams, um well, let me step back for a second. We talked before about for recruiters and for hiring managers, often what they're trying to do is minimize risk. you know The worst thing that can happen is that I hire somebody who is a bad fit for the job and they either you know make a huge mess after they're hired and I look like an idiot or um they don't stay in the role very long and I have to let them go or or they leave because it's such a bad fit and I have to try again.
00:37:03
Speaker
and so um Really, ah for hiring managers and for recruiters, often the main thing that they're trying to do is minimize risk. They want to get someone who is the right level for the role, not too junior, not too senior. Someone who's going to stick around for a long time and competently do the job. And um sometimes this frustrates job seekers and they think, well, why don't they give more people a chance? And I would say that if you were trying to hire a plumber or a wedding planner or a babysitter or a carpenter and the person shows up for the interview and they say, yeah, you know, I'm like, I'm.
00:37:35
Speaker
I'm switching careers. I know that, you know, babysitting will make me really happy, but I've never done it before. I'm really eager to watch your kid. Most of you are going to have you won't want to hire that candidate. Most of us are fairly risk averse and that risk aversion is understandable. So my push for hiring managers and executives is to try to try to take more risks. OK, it's not nearly as risky as you think. In my own hiring on my own teams, I almost exclusively hire junior talent into interns who are really sharp. I don't care where they went to school. I don't care when they graduated, but I evaluate what they're actually going to do on the job and I see who is really phenomenally smart and eager to learn and who really wants to work well with others on the team.
00:38:25
Speaker
high IQ, high EQ, and they just want to be in the seat. That's what I biased towards hiring for on when I was you know hiring recruiters in you know as a VP of talent acquisition and now at the agency when I'm hiring people to join my team. I don't really care what you did in the past. And I think often it's hard to find um large-scale studies that show any sort of correlation between performance on the job and things like years of experience, where you went to school, what you studied, um all the sort of stuff that ends up on the typical resume, a lot of it does not correlate to performance on the job. um Very, you know, I had to
00:39:12
Speaker
had to study this I had to look into this in a fairly deep way at a past company in order to build sort of a hiring system to to to to take on board interns. So we didn't have the capacity to really screen 10,000 intern resume resumes, but we wanted to hire a big cohort of interns. And so what do you do? How do you how do you assess people fairly effectively? How do you match folks with ah the right vacancy? if um if you don't have the time to just review all those CVs, and often testing. you know If you test for those personality and um and character traits that are predictive of performance, things like someone's fluid intelligence, things like someone's emotional intelligence, those really predict performance so strongly. And we found, honestly, that this process worked better than the one that starts with resumes. And we implemented our learnings from this intern hiring across you know
00:40:08
Speaker
all of the vacancies at the organization because um the folks that came out of this process that was rooted in assessing you know what could the the person actually do rather than a piece of paper as the starting point. um That led to to to much better better hiring decisions. um Anyway, so take a few more risks and really ah understand what is going to but will drive performance in your role and how do you test for exactly that? How do you how do you push someone to do exactly what they're gonna be doing on the job in the interview process? Get it get at those those traits.
00:40:43
Speaker
It's a fascinating perspective and a good push for for those on the hiring side, too, to look beyond some of the traditional metrics they use and into into what will actually make a difference on the job. So thanks for sharing. That's better. What are some trends you're seeing for the social sector career space?
Trends in the Social Sector
00:41:04
Speaker
I know that you you're you're super plugged in here. That's that's your main um area of work. what What are some trends you're seeing there? Yeah, some things that are positive for job seekers. I think we're seeing more salary transparency. We're seeing ah more ah humane hiring processes. you know Folks committing to you know shorter hiring processes that are a little bit more transparent, which I think is great. I think um
00:41:34
Speaker
you know, it's I would push for anyone who's in who's a a recruiter or a talent person in any sector to really, ah you know, just put the ah salary on your your job descriptions. I think it's ah this is going to become the law of the land and in more and more geography. So even if it isn't in where you work now, it it will be soon. And it's just so much easier if ah we're we're more more candid about this you'll get better candidates you'll get more applicants from the right level and it's just so so much kinder to to the candidates to not not waste their time um if if it's really just not a match on on salary we are seeing um
00:42:21
Speaker
you know, the same sort of ah the social sector is in its own way, it's still a market, talent market is still a market. And so when you look at the people who have good job security in the social sector, ah you know, being a great fundraiser, ah these are the folks that, um you know, they they're either from donors, they're writing grants, they're ah working with individual donors. these are um This is a really valuable skill to have in the social sector. If you're a good fundraiser, you'll you'll have a um an easy job hunt, but all other useful technical skills as well. right um Skills in data, skills in analytics, skills in um in finance, ah recruiting, staffing. you know If you can really learn how to do something really well,
00:43:10
Speaker
course, engineering, learning how to code, these sort of things. so yeah Nobody is hiring you just for the fun of it, right? They're hiring for you to solve a problem. And so if you have the skill set to solve that problem, um your job prospects, your your job hunt is going to be be easier. One of the other positive things I'm seeing is that, you know, there are some really large um philanthropists, ah folks like um ah Melinda French-Gates and Mackenzie Scott, who are making sort of gifts that are unrestricted and to a whole variety of organizations that previously wouldn't get that funding and organizations most of the time they're taking that funding
00:43:48
Speaker
and they're they're using it to hire great people. right What do most companies spend the vast majority of their budgets on? It's on on their people. And so often if you can keep yourself um aware of the trends on who's funding the players in your industry, this is true in the social sector and and more widely, what does that funding landscape look like? That's often a a leading indicator of the hiring landscape. right And this is something that job seekers can really leverage in their own searches. And so that's what I've seen. I've seen a lot of really positive, a lot of vacancies have opened up due to some of this historic level of investment of some of these large philanthropists who are making a concerted effort to give more sooner. And it's great for the space. It's really helping a diverse range of nonprofits and purpose-driven organizations to scale up and succeed. So I'd like to see that.
00:44:42
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for sharing those. So you mentioned that the salary being listed on the job posting being ah an important change. It's something you'd encourage recruiters and and hiring managers to just start doing. if you If you could make any other sweeping change to the hiring process from a systems perspective, what would that be? Yeah, so we talked a little bit about, you know, I would love to see more CV or resume free processes. I would love to see, you know, ah recruiters start with a chance for everybody to demonstrate some skill, everybody to demonstrate, take a test, um answer some questions, ah these sort of things. Something that directly speaks to the job. I think it's a learning opportunity for all the candidates. I think
00:45:33
Speaker
and Maybe there are job seekers listening to this and think, oh, that sounds horrible. I don't want to do any more work. But I also think that it's sort of like Tinder right now, where it's too easy to swipe right on jobs which have no intention of ever swiping right back on you. And so I would love to see actually a little bit more friction. It should be harder. to apply to the average job because that will lead to people being a little bit more thoughtful about where they apply and it will lead to hiring teams getting more useful information about prospective candidates sooner. um I think, ah you know, it's it's curious to see um will um AI
00:46:15
Speaker
And I know we potential will come to this, and in in ah it's a topic everyone's talking about ah these days. But it's like, will we see AI tools being leveraged the same way that they're starting to? We've seen people talk about this in the dating market, where it's like, oh, well, you're not going to have to swipe anymore, because my robot's going to swipe on your robot, and that's going to do some of the preliminary matchmaking for us. I remain hopeful but skeptical on these sort of things, making an impact on um being useful to job seekers, being able to be leveraged that way to make it a little bit easier to make these matches. But right now, we have um too many choices. It's maybe too easy to apply. And so it goes back to the things we talked about earlier. it It leads to the hiring teams being overwhelmed with
00:47:08
Speaker
pretty mediocre applications, and it's leading to job seekers having to apply for many, many, many things and never hearing it back. And so it it's a fairly negative development in the space, which I would love to see reversed. ah I think the idea of a resume-free hiring process is really, really fascinating and people should people should give that some thought of what value is the resume adding and is this a possibility for your org to do and would that actually improve things? It's just really cool to think about. You've you've mentioned the job search.
00:47:42
Speaker
process being being matchmaking before and then the the kind of Tinder example on this last answer. I'm wondering like how much of how much of the job search is akin to that where it's like there's some people that are just going on you know a date every night of the week and not finding any luck. And there's other people you know kind of meeting people through friends, kind of short circuiting this what can be a grueling hellish process and ah applying more more humanity back to it. And I'm wondering if there's any sort of parallels with with that and the job search. I think it's it sort of shut through with parallels, frankly. maybe I don't know. Maybe I'm ah
00:48:27
Speaker
ah If anyone wants to hire me to launch a online dating company replacement for Tinder, this is a open call. Please reach out. I would love to. This is my, my dream job is to apply the learnings from the job search, from job search matchmaking to actual matchmaking, because I think there's a lot here that we can learn from. And what you alluded to in the question is, is maybe the key thing, which is your friends can fix you up with better people than even some of these really powerful apps, right? And it's because this this concept of loose ties or weak ties sometimes, and it's one of the strongest results that we've ever found in like ah in in social psychology. um Your network is an exceptionally good filter. um You know people who are similar to you. You know people who are um
00:49:22
Speaker
you are connected to people who can introduce you to relatively more interesting people than complete strangers, right? We tend to clump together by interest and and and traits that are similar ah to each other. And so recruiters know a lot of recruiters, accountants know a lot of accountants. And so if you're looking for a new accounting job, rather than going on to some job board, there's just nothing to do with it, talk to your accountant friends who are similar enough to you to filter out um you know, things that aren't a good match for you, but are different enough that they they have opportunities that you aren't already seeing, right? And so when you put those two factors together, your extended network, you know, your your friends, your sort of extended family, your colleagues that you worked with in the past, these are really good sources of leads for, ah you know, for jobs. And again, if you're looking to get fixed up on the date, like,
00:50:19
Speaker
leveraging your network in the same way is probably, um I would give the same advice to someone who's like, you know, looking to meet someone they might get along with. That's probably going to be a better use of your time than swiping, you know, spending two hours swiping right on everybody who's on, ah online, ah just because of the the power of leak types. yeah I love the weak ties connection there. and Another thing that's coming to mind for me and and from um your response to that too is I think a lot of the time we know our friends and family better than they know themselves too. It's it's so hard to look inward and understand what is so you know appealing about you and why people love spending time with you. and
00:51:07
Speaker
that kind of a thing. And I think other people who know us well can can often intuitively do this better, even if they can't articulate it themselves, but they they have a better sense of it than we can even sometimes spot on
Leveraging External Perceptions
00:51:20
Speaker
them. You're so right. I think that's the other piece of this is we are often a mystery to ourselves, but We're not a mystery to the people who've had a look at us. you know um It's obvious. you know well The things that are good about you are obvious to the people that are close to you in your life. And they're you're often completely blind to them ah for similar reasons as what we discussed earlier about the tied up and how we feel about ourselves, how we think about ourselves, imposter syndrome, whatever, whatever. you know Your close contacts don't suffer from the same ah
00:51:51
Speaker
you know, blindness, as you do. I think Adam Grant spoke about this and hidden potential quite a bit. You know, you can really, um you can leverage that expertise in you that you're close and extended contacts have of ah about your skills, about who you are, 100%. And you mentioned the the AI a future that is that is possibly upon us, depending on who you talk to. right now. So I'd love to just get your thoughts on first AI in the job search process of you know the candidate matching and that kind of stuff. And then AI just for a future of work more broadly of of how you see this impacting what we do for for work and careers um in the near future and even further out if you if you don't mind.
AI's Role in Recruitment
00:52:41
Speaker
Yeah. I think we're sort of at the peak of the AI hike cycle.
00:52:46
Speaker
you know I'm like a daily user of chat GPT. I'm a big fan of the product. I ask my researchers at the agency to use it to help them do their work. I think it underpins a lot of the great work we do as sort of a research tool, research aid. um It supercharges human effort, um enough that I'm willing to pay for it, at least to 20 bucks a month. I do not think we are on the bris on the on the brink of you know AI overlords taking you over the world and displacing all jobs. I think this is a little bit of marketing copy by um people who are trying to sell AI products. ah And I also think it's just a very natural fear of being replaced. um I think if you do your job if your job is sort of the assembly line version of knowledge work where
00:53:38
Speaker
You're taking information from one place and mechanically putting it in a different place with some small transformation in between. Yeah, your that job is done. um AI has already started doing that job. And um it's, ah yeah days are numbered. um start Start looking for something new. But I think a lot of us, that it just isn't what we do. And so much of what we what we do day to day is powered by creativity. It's powered by addressing the very human sort of ah points of friction. um Almost the entire time I've had anything to do with HR, I have been on sales calls with people promising to deploy technology that would make recruiters obsolete. And almost invariably, it just doesn't doesn't work because the things that gum up recruiting processes are not based in technical limitations, they're based in the limitations in human understanding and human processing abilities, right?
00:54:33
Speaker
hiring managers struggle to hire because of their own shortcomings as human beings, not because of necessarily a talent a talent tool, which is ah is lacking. And they they fair they they fail to grapple with that in the same way that job seekers you know continue to apply for jobs that are a bad fit. A AI tool that automates or puts more more candidates in front of them, it probably won't solve those very human sticking points, which really come up to works. And my sense is that I think this is probably true in most parts of the economy. I don't want to claim to be an expert in all things, but it's sort of um ah I think often the technological thing is a distraction.
00:55:13
Speaker
and um it's ah ah but at any rate i think um I'm really excited about this and I think ah i think personally, ah I'm gonna deploy AI in my own business. It's been ah a huge coup and and we're gonna use it to make a lot of money and they do it't grow the business. And I think a lot of people are gonna be on the other side of this figuring out how to leverage it. I would, you know, advice for job seekers on this is is think about how could you, how can you use these tools to to pursue your very human aims? um Anyway, i will I'll leave that there. yeah
00:55:52
Speaker
it's It's a refreshing perspective, but I think so grounded as well. And I love the framing of it as pursuing your you know your human aims, making your career more deeply creative and deeply human. And I was listening to a really interesting interview with Sam Altman a ah bit ago, and he was saying that initially they were thinking that blue collar work would be the first to be replaced. And what they're actually finding is that it's going to be that generic kind of lower end white collar work of that that kind of copy and paste, uncreative corporate communication kind of stuff. And actually, think that's probably a great thing that we have less of that out in the working world. And it frees people up to do things that are not just being a kind of white collar corporate drone and actually be using their humanity and their creativity.
00:56:45
Speaker
No, I mean, in at the turn of the, you know, 20th century, there were a lot of guys getting paid to shovel horse crap in New York City. And, um you know, the automobile came around, all those people lost their jobs, and um we're we're okay with that, right? Like, I think there's a lot of just crappy jobs that we should all celebrate their demise of. um I think it's sort of The other thing I would say just not to get this super political, you know, the the the real fear, the real downside is sort of, does this, ah um is there further concentration of wealth? Is it sort of, um how can we incentivize, um like, new jobs to be created that are better, or simply, you know, take a
00:57:35
Speaker
ensure that billionaires pay their fair share and we get some of this um efficient some of the efficiencies that are being gained in the economy, those need to go back into the pockets of regular people and that's probably going to need you know some sort of intervention. anyway it's like um How do we, there will be changes, changes are definitely coming, but I i am like, I'm bullish that with if we push people the right way, ah we we push the economy in the direction we want it, it'll be good, it can be good for workers. Lousy, crappier jobs cease to exist, potentially better jobs come, and a um ah you know a better economy for us all.
Political Ramifications of AI
00:58:16
Speaker
It's such an important thing to consider the the political ramifications for this. And it's just it is again, just just really interesting to think about and and what will this look like and how can we proactively as ah as a country or as a and as a world be be looking to put in those those protections and those regulations where they make sense so this doesn't turn into some dystopian nightmare as well. um So what what career books or other resources of any kind do you find yourself coming back to the most often? And I'm gonna take my own, I know I have the career design map books, I'm gonna take that off the table so it doesn't turn into a shilling session for my own publications. But i'd I'd love to hear which ones you find yourself coming back to the most often. No, definitely. I'm a big fan of your your book. and it's um I particularly love the quiz. I think it's a great starting point for a lot of people who are on this
00:59:08
Speaker
on this journey. I also really like Never Search Alone by Phil Terry. I i usually i buy a copy of this book for each client and send it to them. I think Phil has a really smart approach. It's a 250 page book. Two pages of it are about resumes. and I disagree with most of what he says on those two pages, but like the rest of the book is incredibly, incredibly useful for I would say most job seekers who are pursuing sort of a mid-career knowledge um worker sort of job in social impact or in tech or ah yeah really the lessons are widely applicable.
00:59:49
Speaker
and um you know he outlines how to do what he calls a listening tour, which is a much more effective form of networking. I spoke a little bit about some of these ideas earlier, but if you really want a ah foolproof or an effective, a tested approach to your your job hunt, I think um I resonate with so much of what he says, what Phil says in Never Search Alone. The other ones I'll call out are the classic what color is your parachute. I think um particularly the early chapters of this outline some tried and true um
01:00:28
Speaker
you know, dynamics of how does how does recruiting processes work? And I think there's also quite a bit of very practical advice on negotiation in that. I also find myself turning to books which are a little bit more broad ah on how do we make sense of our careers and our lives? I just finished one called How to Do Nothing and sort of don't don't feel like you need to optimize every single aspect of your life or job. um I think that there's a lot of pressure in our culture to be the best, to find the best. And often there's a benefit to stepping away from that. The good enough job also speaks to this idea as well. How do you ask a little bit less from work? How do you not put your whole identity into work? Which is something I grappled with a lot a few years ago when I
01:01:22
Speaker
I left a job I'd been in for a long time and went on sabbatical. I really took a long time to figure out what I wanted to do with myself and who I was outside of my job. um And I think this is something for anyone who's had a point of transition to think about, ah you know, who you are outside of the the yeah the job market. Yeah, those are the ones I really like.
Connect with Spencer Campbell
01:01:45
Speaker
so many great recommendations there for people to check out. Spencer, how can people learn more about what you're up to, follow along, and get in touch with the bike? Yeah. The best way to find me is on LinkedIn. um Just search for Spencer Campbell ah talent on LinkedIn.
01:02:04
Speaker
and you'll find my company page and my um personal page. People would also book time to speak with me via my website, that's.com.
01:02:18
Speaker
Great. Well, it would really encourage anyone in the job seeking space to follow Spencer and get in touch with him if his services sounded appealing from everything we've talked about. And it's just so nice after having done so much work together, Spencer to finally have you on the podcast. So really appreciate you taking the time. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. Of course. So we'll throw all those links in the show notes at contemplasleadership.com. And everyone, thanks for for joining us. If you have a chance to leave a quick review on whatever podcast player you're using, that goes a long way in helping to spread the word with people. So thank you for doing that in advance. And thanks again, Spencer. I appreciate it. Take care.