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Amnesty CIO Paul Smith on AI Adoption Beyond the Hype and Developing Talent Others Overlook
20 Plays5 days ago
Paul Smith (linkedin.com/in/pdsmithmba/), Chief Information Officer at Amnesty International, joins host Dan Freehling (contempusleadership.com) to discuss tech leadership with people and ethics front and center. Drawing from a career that spans industry (defense, automotive, and more) and humanitarian organizations, Paul shares hard-won insights on AI adoption (00:30), four essential digital skills for non-technical professionals (09:32), and emotional intelligence, strategic communication, and talent development for technical leaders (15:53). Paul relays his own journey from a working class background to the global C-suite (22:00) and emphasizes the power of mentorship, permission-giving, and inclusive hiring to help other non-traditional talent make a similar journey (37:54). Recommended reading: “Bulletproof Your Career” by Patricia Romboletti. Show notes at forwardlookingleadership.com.
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Transcript
Introduction of Video Episode
00:00:03
Speaker
everyone, Dan here. I'm excited to bring you the first video episode of the Forward Looking Leadership podcast. Today I speak with Paul Smith, who's the Chief Information Officer at Amnesty International. We cover AI adoption in real world organizations, the digital skills executives should be developing, how to mentor rising talent, and so much more.
00:00:21
Speaker
I hope you enjoy.
00:00:26
Speaker
Paul, thanks so much for joining me on Forward Looking Leadership. Pleasure to be here, Dan. Thank you very much for
AI Adoption: People, Process, and Technology
00:00:30
Speaker
having me. Yeah, so the big question I'm sure on a lot of people's minds is, it beyond all the hype, how should organizations really be approaching AI adoption in practice?
00:00:40
Speaker
That's a great question. Very topical. I don't think I can go to an event these days with without it mentioning AI. I think I have a few thoughts on this, Dan. i think I'd probably start with saying just because you can doesn't mean you should.
00:00:52
Speaker
I think for me, it's still a ah question of people, process, and then technology. In the round, you have to consider these things. It's not about throwing technology solutions at problems. about considering what else and maybe the issue or where else might might pain points exist.
00:01:04
Speaker
That doesn't mean to say that there is no tech-driven opportunity. just about thinking about things in the round and actually thinking about things like op return on investment and engagement and change management and all that good stuff. and We also need to think about ethics and responsibility. So senior leaders, we should do no harm.
00:01:20
Speaker
So we have to start from a position of respecting ethical standpoints and responsibility that's placed on us as senior leaders. think it's very important to define a strategic approach for to make sure that we're focusing on the right things, the right high impact things at the right time.
00:01:33
Speaker
And sometimes good enough is enough to start with. you know It doesn't have to be perfect. We can test and learn as we go. But it's also important, I think, to strengthen those foundations like your data governance, like your information security, because ultimately we're still dealing with tech and rubbish in, rubbish out, or trash in, trash out.
Building Organizational Capacity for AI
00:01:50
Speaker
what What I've also found important from my own experience and and my peers is is the need to really build organizational wide capacity. And in the sense of that, I'm not just talking about skills. I'm talking about giving people safe spaces to have a conversation about this technology because we're all learning, whether that's through communities of interest or formal education and awareness programs. It's about creating that safe space where we can share share what's gone well, share what's gone less well, have a debate about the ethics or about, you know, should we do this? But just create the ability for people to educate each other for a peer-to-peer conversation and to let that stuff play out in in a really free, transparent manner. I've had a lot of success with that.
00:02:28
Speaker
I think embedding ethics and regulatory adherence from the start, because it's very expensive to bring that stuff in later, change designs, change approaches, and so on. And I think starting small to show value for a very specific use case is important. Not to bore the ocean, to pick one problem, look at the things needed only to solve that problem, and to see if you have any success through piloting, scaling, and then sustaining a solution for that.
Insights from Various Sectors
00:02:52
Speaker
And I think lastly, but certainly not least, now we're still learning, right? i know we're a year or two in with some of this technology now, but it's still moving really fast. So I think it's very important that we all continue to learn from and anyone and anything, and if you can, to share in return, to contribute back to the community.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, so it sounds like a really foundational approach with people with process and technology coming in where useful and not just kind of chasing the next shiny object for you.
00:03:20
Speaker
Yeah, it doesn't change. you know it's not It's not technology in isolation. It's still used by people and used for a particular process. So I think you have to consider everything in the round. Otherwise, we risk a foul change initiatives. So you've worked in a lot of different sectors from defense to automotive to IT for a 200 year old lifeboat charity.
00:03:40
Speaker
ah What have you found to be kind of the same across every organization? What have you found to be, okay, I need a unique IT solution for this unique problem at this organization?
00:03:52
Speaker
Great question. Let me think about that for a second. I think, so what I would say, what's been the same? think there's a lot that can be shared between sectors to raise capabilities at at a commodity level.
00:04:04
Speaker
And I think there's also a lot that can be learned from alternative sectors that might create a competitive advantage in the sector that you currently operate in. For example, i've I've worked in commercial and nonprofit sector, so I can give you some comparisons between volunteer management to workforce management to supporter journeys and customer journeys.
Understanding and Engaging Users
00:04:22
Speaker
And around other things like employee experience and engagement and digital friction management, these are themes that are transferable, or at least you can copy some best principles or or some good solutions from one to the other. So lot similarities there.
00:04:35
Speaker
I think mostly i IT t is IT t in terms of its professional disciplines, the roles, the technologies, the things that you do to deliver a solution, the differences in the application of it for your specific context, i.e. where the rubber meets the road for you.
00:04:50
Speaker
I think other things I've found that have been the same, I think it's still important to put the user first, no matter where in IT you work. So getting out of the ivory tower and understanding the needs at the sharp end of whatever it is your organization does.
00:05:03
Speaker
And the general importance of people in technology, because tech is still about people. It's still delivered by people, with people, and for people. So all the soft skills that go around that, not just how great you are with the cloud technology, are still really important, because otherwise it's just a tech initiative in a vacuum.
00:05:19
Speaker
So I think they're the sorts of things I would i've certainly claim are that are the same. Some things I would say I find it as challenges or or that are a little bit different and maybe a bit more nuanced. I think certainly the stakeholder environment, you know, depending on who you work for, where you work, the industry you work in, the ability to innovate and adopt change, what the talent pipeline might look like, what funding might look like. It'll be challenges with varying degrees of impact across sectors.
00:05:45
Speaker
So my current organization has over 10 million supporters in 150 countries and territories, and it is by far, on any level, by any measure, the most diverse organization I've ever worked in. And that brings some really interesting new challenges and opportunities with regard to aspects such as inclusion and diversity, equity, multilingual global communication, even basic mutual understanding and overall alignment on what's important and what's not and why.
00:06:11
Speaker
So think thats that's one unique challenge. I think secondarily is I think to recognize that, and it's often overlooked in my experience, that everyone starts from a different starting point. That could be your digital literacy, the language you speak, the experience you have, even your fears or your knowledge, your upbringing even, resources at your disposal. These are all things that come into play. i mean, you start in a slightly different place to what I do.
00:06:36
Speaker
So stakeholder engagement and communication often assumes that everyone is starting from that same point. That's just something to be aware of. So they there's certainly a couple of main differences i would point to. Yeah, those are those are really fascinating and certainly things to keep in mind for for people of what what's kind of transferable and what what has to be unique to the context.
00:06:55
Speaker
You mentioned kind of getting to the heart of what the the customer need is, getting ah off the ivory tower and into that. How do you do that in practice? Great question. So first, I think it's a combination of things. I think you need to look at first at your business capabilities.
00:07:13
Speaker
What are the building blocks of your organization? What is it that it does on one piece of paper in big lumps? You know, we do procurement, we do manufacturing. What is it? at the abstract level and and how well does it do that? What are the pain points? you know what What do you need to move the dial on to create competitive advantage or to reduce risk for your organization?
00:07:34
Speaker
think that's important because you have to have that capability-based understanding for strategic alignment. Otherwise, you could be chasing whispers in the hallways, an individual's pain point, you know those that share their list. I think it's really important to have that link.
00:07:46
Speaker
To understand what your organization is doing strategically in its operating environment and where competitive advantage might come from, think that's important too. So every conversation you can have from that point can be placed within context, if that makes sense.
00:08:00
Speaker
And then I think, as I said, step ahead of the ivory tower. Go and sit next to the user. Interview them. Speak with them. Observe them. If you need to, measure the time it takes for them to complete a process that you thought was easy.
00:08:13
Speaker
and Survey them. Ask them the questions. Provide anonymous feedback channels. Communication is is a very often spoken about, but very underrated and often not very done very well thing.
00:08:25
Speaker
you know And it's it's not it doesn't suffice to say, I've told you this, why don't you know it? It's about, I'm going to tell you this in three different ways at five different times, you know or in whatever way it may suit you best, where you are in the format that you prefer.
00:08:38
Speaker
And these all open up communication channels for you to learn. So I think that's really, really important. and And not just learn, but relearn what you thought you knew, because things change. People change. Roles change.
00:08:50
Speaker
The environment in your organization operates in changes. So you have to have that communicative, open learning mentality, and you have to speak to the people at the coalface. Does that help? it's It's really, and think, a a really practical way for people to think of but strategy and communications in practice and not in just, you know be strategic. And it's, okay, what does that actually mean? How do you get to the heart of that? And how do you communicate with people? How do you understand people? This is this is hugely useful.
Essential Skills for Non-Tech Individuals
00:09:17
Speaker
Fantastic. So there's probably a lot of non-IT people, non-technical people listening, watching. What tech skills, if any, would you recommend that non-technical people prioritize developing?
00:09:32
Speaker
I think firstly, it probably depends on what your career focus is, but I can probably give some high high level examples. And actually some of these, i would say, are the life skills. are not just career skills, if that makes sense.
00:09:43
Speaker
So i'd I'd certainly offer up general data, digital literacy. and What do I mean by that? So I'm thinking here about what does good cybersecurity hygiene look like? Do you understand what multi-factor authentication is? Do you know what a phishing email looks like?
00:09:57
Speaker
Do you know how you stay secure in your general day-to-day life? I'm thinking about did data privacy and compliance. How do you know you're going to comply with the law, even in what you do versus what your business unit or your organization may be doing so that you can respect things like GDPR or in a PCI DSS, payment card standards.
00:10:15
Speaker
I think it's important to have ah an awareness of emerging tech trends. And I'm not saying everyone should sit and read tech magazines or anything like that, but you know understand what it is that's disrupting the tech industry these days so you can think about what your future career might look like or what your future role might look. like And again, this one's a bit more nuanced, but depending what what your role is and and your level level of engagement with technology, you may want to understand a little bit about cloud basics within that digital literacy bracket, just so you understand what it is when your tech teams talk to you about software as a service or all cloud. What is cloud? What what is it really?
00:10:49
Speaker
So I'll certainly offer digital literacy. Following closely behind that, I would say data skills. Now, when I say that, you're immediately going to think things like Excel or analysis and Power BI, but I would extend that ever so slightly.
00:11:02
Speaker
to say, well, if you think about the link between data skills as they were and new emerging technology, now we're starting to think about how to have conversations with data, to ask questions of a spreadsheet on screen through a large language model tool, not looking at KPIs and dashboard, but say, analyze this data, tell me about it.
00:11:19
Speaker
What would it look if like if I did this? What about the do some scenario analysis and model? So conversational analysis of data, I think, is going to be a very useful skill set to have for forward facing non-techies because you don't need to be technical to ask a question in plain English.
00:11:34
Speaker
But there is still the need there to have some x skills like Excel skills, I suppose, in in the meantime, and maybe some Power BI skills and to understand how you might create a dashboard to tell a story to your senior stakeholders.
00:11:46
Speaker
and how you might use data in reality to make a data and forward decision. And what does that really mean? You know, is is it just, it's gone green, therefore it's good. It's gone red, therefore it's bad. Or is it more than that?
00:11:59
Speaker
So data skills in a very broad sense. I think there's a lot of talk generally around AI and automation. We've already touched on this a little bit already. So I think having an awareness as an individual about the AI ethics and and biases that inherit and current modern tools, I think is important just as an individual, just so you can be aware and not be blind to this stuff.
00:12:19
Speaker
Again, as I said earlier, know that you're doing no harm. I think that that's really important. Definitely develop your prompt engineering skills for AI tools. You know, there's a lot out there at the moment. And going back to my initial point of kind of trash in, trash out, being able to craft a really well articulated prompt, that's a really pointed question, will give you a better result.
00:12:40
Speaker
So I think that's really important for these kind of tools. and And things like workflow automation, because as an individual, you may want to look to how you automate your work, make your life a little bit easier, reduce some effort, but also to look to where the art of the possible may be for the teams that you work in up or lead.
00:12:54
Speaker
And I think probably last but not least, I'd say just general communication and collaboration tools because, you know, all of us work in the vacuum. so being proficient in tools like project management platforms, communication tools like Teams or Slack, and knowledge management basics using tools like SharePoint or GitHub, these can all help to facilitate great information and knowledge management and collaboration and information flow across Teams.
00:13:19
Speaker
So they're the kind of four four big lumpy areas I would offer up if that helps. Yeah, again again, hugely useful for people listening. And I would love to hear, where do you where do you kind of stay current on this as an IT professional? And where do you think kind of ah a more lay person can look to stay current on some of this stuff?
00:13:36
Speaker
It is a great question. And I can tell you what I used to do and kind of what I do now, because there's been a bit of a change in the way I do this stuff. So I used to, like many other people, you know, read the emails that got sent me. You know, the news emails, the articles, the blogs, the white papers.
00:13:51
Speaker
But it got really overwhelming really quickly. And then I started to transition more into learning directly from people through conversation. So going to networking events, attending roundtables, a virtual physical, and just listening and talking to people.
00:14:03
Speaker
Because actually what you get there is an aggregated view of this is actually what I learned. This is what I found useful. And it's a bit more relevant and pointed. you can kind of have a two-way conversation and refine what it is you're talking about.
00:14:15
Speaker
But lately, I've found myself, and you're going think I'm quite strange with this, I have quite late-night conversations with generative AI tools on my mobile phone. If I want to know something and I have a question and I want to explain in a certain way, I want to dig into it, I'll just have a conversation with a tool like Copilot or ChatGPT or you know insert your LLM tool here because it will explain it to me in a way that I find easy. I can tell it how I want it to explain to me.
00:14:40
Speaker
I can drill into certain things that I'm not so sure about. I can get it to summarize news articles for me based on the industry I work in, the role I have, what I'm working on. So I'm finding that it's it's a great tool for taking all that knowledge, all that information and bringing it into context to me.
00:14:56
Speaker
And I didn't expect to be doing that probably two years ago, but I find it a lot more beneficial using my time. Yeah, it's a it's a really underrated tool for learning. And i think there's it's kind of an insatiable amount of of things that you can learn through these tools and obviously checking you know checking on things before taking it at face value. But a lot of the but kind of main stuff is is really, really strong and able to to help you understand things in a better way.
00:15:22
Speaker
And it could be any topic, really. I'm not just talking about tech stuff here. Anything I want learn about, and I've asked it gardening questions and automobile maintenance questions, anything. I find it really interesting. but ah But again, I'm always mindful of you know the environmental impact of using these tools and you know could I get the information other ways. But for me, it works.
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah. These are all all really the great tips again. kind of the flip side of this question for technical people, what people skills, what non-technical skills should they really prioritize developing?
Skills for Technical Leaders
00:15:53
Speaker
That is a good question. So I can probably tell you what's worked well for me. I won't claim to be great in any of these things, but these are the things I've i've focused on. And I think firstly, I think it's it's worth saying that to be, i think to be a ah good, successful modern leader, whether technology or otherwise, I think you have to have quite a lot of skills and tools in the toolbox.
00:16:13
Speaker
you need you You need a lot that you can reach on and you need to be able to be resourceful. But I think I can probably offer up a handful of things that I find important. and And the first is by by some way, the most important for me, and that's emotional intelligence, very closely coupled with situational leadership.
00:16:30
Speaker
What do I mean by that? Being self-aware, having adaptability, having empathy, and i've being good at managing relationships allows you to now get quite complex interpersonal dynamics with tact, but most importantly, to act in context.
00:16:46
Speaker
So I would have said this to you in this way, but now I know these things about me, or this thing that's going on today, maybe I'll change the way approach this. You can't be a one-trick pony today is a senior leader because mostly everyone and every situation is very different.
00:17:01
Speaker
and And actually the change that we're all facing, the lives that we all live is is constant and there's a lot going on. So I think emotional intelligence and situational leadership, number one. I think secondly, strategic thinking.
00:17:13
Speaker
So I think the ability to see the big picture and the line, whatever decision I may take or how I prioritize something, in the long term to long term goals is is really important. One, because it helps with prioritization and it helps to drive the right organizational growth and resilience conversations. So to be able to bring yourself out, look at the big picture, have the helicopter view, whatever the phrases you prefer to have. I think the more you know about general direction of travel, the more relevant you can be in the long term for sustainability.
00:17:42
Speaker
I think thirdly, communications and stakeholder management. And I don't like the word stakeholder management. Once he puts people in a box, makes you, I'm a stakeholder. What does that mean? it's a very formal phrase, but communication generally, because you can't operate in a vacuum. I've used the term a couple of times, but but by that, I mean, you need to be able to build trust and and be trusted and to trust others. Trust is a really important thing for today's modeling business.
00:18:04
Speaker
and And closely linked to that is credibility. Do I do what I say what I would do? So through boards, through departments, or external partners, I think that that trust and credibility is really important, but also to understand and address very diverse needs.
00:18:18
Speaker
We talked a little bit earlier about, you know, acting in top context and situational awareness. So communication facilitates that because now you're happy to talk to me. I can now understand it starts that starts our journey.
00:18:30
Speaker
And I think closely into that is the ability then to tell a story that's relevant to you, to inspire you, to gain your buy-in for change. So you can start to see how these things layer layer up. I'll probably offer two more things.
00:18:41
Speaker
I think number four would be, let's say, change leadership. I think I've mentioned earlier, I think we all know change is constant. So to be able to lead through uncertainty... to build momentum to start with, to say, I think that's a thing we should do.
00:18:55
Speaker
I need to catalyze some activity here and build some momentum and then need to deliver through managing resistance you know for benefit. i think that that is an important end-to-end journey.
00:19:06
Speaker
Again, linked to how people might perceive you, the relationships you have, how you communicate with people, helps you with that tool to manage that Kubler-Rush change curve that people often go through. So think that's important. and you can start to see how these layer up. And I think very lastly, I think talent development.
00:19:22
Speaker
So the ability to recognize future talent, to coach it, to mentor it, and to create a culture of kind of learning and growth. I find that good for me for for a number of reasons. One, because it helps with engagement with my own team. i want them to feel like they belong, they have a place to go and they can see a future for themselves.
00:19:39
Speaker
So I get engagement from my teams. but also because they they become me when I'm not there. They ask the questions that I would ask because they understand the things that I would think about. starting to think about talent development, getting people to feel comfortable acting outside of their role profile box, to to challenge, to to learn from each other, giving just giving permission sometimes is all that takes.
00:20:00
Speaker
but But I think talent development has been really important to me too, because ultimately, as I say to my team with with a smile, I'm just a mouthpiece, right? They do all the hard work. You know, I'm just one guy. There's only so much i can do. So the better I can enable these people to do their work and to take the blockers out of the way, to protect them from the asteroids that might hit them, to allow them to express themselves, the better we will all be.
00:20:22
Speaker
So I'd offer those that was five five things. It's like again, just hugely useful for people. And I think it's so helpful. You're you're being quite humble about your own accomplishments in this, which is a very positive sign as a leader. But you're i mean you're routinely awarded in the the top 100, 200 CIOs in the world. And this is something that I think just carries a lot more credibility coming from someone like you who does this day in day out rather than some of the kind of leadership management gurus who who are not actually doing this in practice day to day. so It's ah stuff that I hope people are listening to and really seeing, okay, this is ah a very serious person who's who's thinking these things are are critical to success of himself and the team and the organization.
00:21:06
Speaker
Thank you, Dan. That's very kind of you to say, but as you know, I've been very fortunate to have some, know, just to go down that tangent, I wouldn't achieve anything without my team. And that I don't mean that as lip service. It's generally the truth.
00:21:17
Speaker
And i say I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, but I've also been fortunate to have some great mentors, some great supporters, great family members that hold me up as an individual. And all these things need to come together. there are recipes in the box, right? to And and what you what you would say is success, I would say, is maybe a small battle I've fought or, you know, the end of a journey or something like that. But...
00:21:37
Speaker
As with all these things, I hope that anything I say is useful to at least one person. Then for me, it's worth it. This emphasis on mentorship and developing talent and especially that kind of rising talent is is critical for you how do you.
Mentorship and Personal Growth
00:21:53
Speaker
How do you think about that? how do you How do you go about coaching, developing, growing, rising talent within your team, your organization?
00:22:00
Speaker
it's It's a great question. And it's pretty saying of me because I'm i from what most people today would call an underprivileged background. So an extremely working class background, you know, social housing in the centre of the country, not born with any, what I would call privilege, but, you know, didn't come easy.
00:22:15
Speaker
I certainly couldn't afford to go to university, didn't have the opportunity to do that. i was a young father. So there's there's a lot to unpack there, I think, about education. generally developing talent and and what that talent that you're trying to develop needs to consider.
00:22:29
Speaker
So if I could take those two perspectives, one one and then the other. So my approach to developing talent is is ah firstly to start with, as I've said earlier, giving permission. It sounds such an obvious thing to say, but the difference it makes when I can say to you as a member of my team, I give you permission to learn.
00:22:47
Speaker
I give you permission to tell me I'm taking one hour on a Friday to learn something. You've seen the kind of analogy with the sheep stood around the gate, but there are no fences, you know, when they all still stood behind the gate. It's a little bit like that. And you need to give people that permission to say, I am prioritizing this thing. It's important to me.
00:23:05
Speaker
It's important to the organization. So I think that's that's firstly an environment of giving permission. think secondly, the the individual also used to come to the table. Because ultimately, any development plan has to be owned by the individual.
00:23:16
Speaker
And it won't go very far if they're sitting there with what I would call baby bird syndrome. We know that they're sat there with their mouth open waiting to be fed. They've got to step up. They've got to put the effort in because ultimately, they'll be the ones that benefits from it. And they they need to start asking themselves, how good could I be? What might I be interested in? So I think that's important.
00:23:35
Speaker
I think it's also important to share, share what you learn because we're all focusing on different things. Maybe we can start to help each other horizontally and and celebrate successes along the way. but The fact that you've read your first ever book, having never read a book cover to cover, might not be important to to to anyone.
00:23:52
Speaker
But if it's important to you, it's important to me. you know i've I've never classed myself as ah as a reader. I'm not one of these guys. has As you can see, shelf full of books behind me because I learn in other ways. And so when people have these micro wins, like I've read a book, I managed to learn this one thing end end, you've got to celebrate that.
00:24:08
Speaker
So I think there are things like that. I think you need to create opportunities also for your team. I work quite hard with my own team and and teams that I've led to try and create connections outside of the organizations with with people like them or people that can help them.
00:24:22
Speaker
And it may be other tech leaders like me, and they may they say the same thing out of a different mouth, or they may have a completely opposite opinion. It's still good for my my team to hear that, you know, in terms of getting diverse perspectives. So creating opportunities for exposure, think is really important.
00:24:38
Speaker
And creating a very deliberate strategy around, how the hell am I going to do this with my team? How am I going to take them from where they are today to fulfilling either their personal needs or the capabilities the organization needs and or both?
00:24:51
Speaker
And sometimes that can mean I'm going to develop you to a point where I don't have a role for you, but you will definitely be ready if that role comes up or you'll be ready to move you know diagonally into another organization and we'll take all that benefit from you and engagement from you whilst you're on that learning journey.
00:25:07
Speaker
Because there is benefit in that journey. It's not just realized three years at the end when they finish. It's that whole journey. So developing my people for a role that they they want to expand into, the role they're targeting, or maybe a career change, I think it's important to just have that open conversation say, I can develop you to be the next me, you know but I may not go anywhere for the next two years. But let's have that conversation. Let's talk about it.
00:25:28
Speaker
That won't stop me helping you anyway. So that's important. So that's some of the things I do in terms of approaching development with my team. I think in terms of those that are seeking development, particularly those that may come from, let's say, non-traditional backgrounds, they may want to either build a career in tech or build their career out a little bit.
00:25:47
Speaker
I think, again, permission, but permission permission to believe, believe that something's possible and believe that you can achieve it. Because if you don't have that belief to start with, then then you've got nothing, you've drive, you've got no dream.
00:26:00
Speaker
So I think believing that I can learn that thing, that I can achieve that role, that I am able to prioritize this time, I think belief is a really powerful tool. I think they need to have need to have determination and faith in their own ability, just as who you are today. What you bring to the table today with every battle you've ever fought, with what you've learned, with what you've experienced, you're good to go already.
00:26:21
Speaker
You're ready for this, okay? I think so. Believe in in yourself. That's important. and to start to get that question inside, kind of bubbling to the surface that says, how well could I really do? How well could I really go if I really tested myself here?
00:26:35
Speaker
If I really, really applied myself, could I get an A instead of a B or you know a distinction instead of a whatever it is? If I really gave all of myself, what could I do? Because if you can develop that appetite, that hunger, then then you get you get desire, you get determination from it.
00:26:51
Speaker
And I've touched on it earlier. I think support networks are really important, Dan, because they they build you up. They support you. They call you out, you know, when you you you need to be doing something. They call you out, all in equal measure, when you need it.
00:27:04
Speaker
And in you know in the executive world, there's talk of things like personal boardrooms, know your cheerleader, your mentor, whoever these people are that play these roles. For me and my wife, it was it was my close family, along with some really good professional mentors who were guys that are guys and girls, I should have some girls too, that I looked up to and who I wanted to be.
00:27:24
Speaker
They were my role models. And often said to my wife, you know when I grow up, I want to be that guy. And you need that. You need that. You need that template. You need that person that you can look up to. So I think that whole support network, that whole ecosystem is is really important around you because when you're on a learning journey, you may falter. You may have a tough day. You may want to quit.
00:27:43
Speaker
You may need your you know the the leash yanking a little bit if you get too full of yourself. All these things are really, really important. We've talked about people schools already today, so won't i won't go too much into that, but the importance of recognizing that if you're going to develop that you need to do it with people, you know, because you don't you don't operate in a cave somewhere. You will never work on your own in a cave somewhere. where You work with other people. You achieve things with other people.
00:28:06
Speaker
So I think figuring out how you interact with people, and there's lots of talk about great techies needing to develop people skills or what it takes to turn from a great techie to a great manager, but it's typically a people transition that comes in there, you know, how you lead people, performance manage people, manage people.
00:28:23
Speaker
So I think starting that people skills journey early in terms of getting used to talking to people, getting used to listening more than anything. I've got two ears and one mouth for a reason, as my dad would say. You know, getting used to listening to people is is really important.
00:28:36
Speaker
um And rich start to, lastly but not least, I think, realize the value in starting to cultivate and grow that network. Not for your own benefit, for your own opportunities, but because you can help others.
00:28:47
Speaker
And connectivity breeds connectivity. You may help someone one day, you help someone else the next, you talk to someone on the third day that can really help you actually, and that connectivity comes back. So pay it forward.
00:29:00
Speaker
You know, and I found that to be, i didn't expect that to be a benefit of growing my network in my career, but I've made some of my best friends, you know, closest allies, you know, comrades, if you if you will, that, you know, go through the same struggles as me personally or professionally. and And you start to build that little peer group, that little tribe.
00:29:16
Speaker
And that's important on the career journey in my view. So hope some of that's useful. I love this all. And really being a mentor yourself, if you're someone who's coming from maybe a non-traditional background and looking to grow your career, it's seeking out these kind of mentors, seeking out these kind of opportunities, all there these people skills to work on developing them, putting yourself forward.
00:29:37
Speaker
yeah And then this turn on networking is one that I haven't heard put exactly in this way, but I really, really, really, really like it for people of It's not your network is not for you. It's to allow you to play this kind of a role, to be a connector, to be a mentor to people, to help people.
00:29:57
Speaker
Absolutely. And i'll I'll share a little secret with you, Dan, it's probably not so secret because of this podcast, but I don't find these things easy. they're not something I do naturally. You may disagree with me based on how I'm coming across today, but I don't, these things don't come natural to me.
00:30:10
Speaker
and And it was a skill I had to step into uncomfortably and deliberately. Because i started to realize that I don't sit here today and think, oh, I'm talking to X number of people. I sit here thinking, I'm talking to me. I'm talking to the guy through the screen that is a future me or that was me 10 years ago.
00:30:28
Speaker
That's the person I'm talking to. And I wish I had that. You know, i I did have it in other ways, maybe. But but that's important. and And also when you're on a development journey, I think, again, another family quote, when my nan used to say to me, when and planning and preparation meets opportunity, great things happen.
00:30:45
Speaker
You can plan, you can prepare. Opportunity will come as a result of that. so thought that was fantastic. And that's that stuck with me. and's so It's so good. It's so good. And ah again, I just love how you're talking right to that one person who who can benefit from this and just just knowing people who might be listening to this and who knows who this reaches. But I definitely know a number of people who are in that kind of a situation and will find this hugely valuable. And yeah, it's ah it's a really it's really valuable thing for people.
00:31:14
Speaker
Nice have. And there's something ah there's something about not being naturally extroverted, naturally slick with networking and with these kind of public appearances that I i put myself in that category too. And I had to you know i had to learn how to do this all all growing up and doing you know all kinds of like student activities and things that that force you into public speaking. And I think it's all really important stuff to...
00:31:39
Speaker
develop What do you see as the the real value add of these kind of public appearances, of doing podcasts, of going for awards, of this kind of broader networking? How does that actually benefit you as ah as a professional? Oh, that's a great question. I think there are probably two halves to that. I mean, the the awards thing is one half, which I'll take in isolation, and the other the other half is the extension of the network.
00:32:02
Speaker
And I think I'll start with the latter. So I'll start with your network and and and what it means to be connected to people. Because what what I found is, or what what we all know, I guess, I suppose, is that you don't know what you don't know.
00:32:13
Speaker
And i the more the more people I speak to, the more I know, the less I realize I know, if that makes sense. eli and and And I've certainly learned that. and And it helps. It helps with things like you know Envy, for example. So we all operate in a particular tech role or a particular leadership role.
00:32:30
Speaker
And I may look at you as ah as a peer through window of something like a LinkedIn or any other social media tool think, God, that person's amazing. And then I may talk to you and realize that you're amazing in that one thing. But there's 15 things that you're not amazing at and you've got real insecurities about it. And I can help you with those things. and And maybe we can help each other.
00:32:48
Speaker
But I love sharing because love sharing journeys. I love of helping people. And that's why I work in nonprofit organization. I'm a very purpose-driven individual. I'm a father of six.
00:32:59
Speaker
you know So this kind of stuff is built into me. And I just love helping people because it's good to be kind, right? so i think and And I see that play it through my network. But that's the personal side of things. As I said, I made some great friends and we we've gone some great journeys together. that However, I've also seen the value of my network for my team to create connections for my team and opportunity for my team.
00:33:19
Speaker
And I've also seen the value of a network to bring resource and thinking and perspectives and shared knowledge and template and work that's already done into my organization to save us reinventing the wheel or for expertise that maybe we couldn't afford to procure in any way.
00:33:36
Speaker
So it's just people helping people and just trying to, you know, as they say, a rising tide lifts all ships. And there's nothing wrong with just people helping people. I appreciate there will be some industries where, you know, confidentialities and competitiveness would make that more difficult. But there's certainly some of the benefits I've seen.
00:33:53
Speaker
and And things come out of left field in terms of, you know, I've spotted this one great opportunity for one of your guys or for you. Or have you seen this thing? Or have you heard about this discount or this free initiative? and And you wouldn't know about these things otherwise.
00:34:06
Speaker
And i get I get the great benefit of seeing people's posts and their knowledge share and the great things that they're doing. So lots and lots of benefit in terms of the network, personally and professionally, I think.
00:34:17
Speaker
To take the other part of your question, I think the awards are quite a different thing for me. and And again, the the introvert in me struggled with this. I'll be open, honest, and share that with you, Dan. But I think what I come to recognize with with the awards, is it's not about me at all.
00:34:33
Speaker
at all. It's about the work of my team and getting them recognition full for a job well done and to have a platform to talk about at work to others, to share what we did, what we learned, what we struggled with. um And by extension, I guess the work of my organization, because I get to talk about, for me, I get to talk about Amnesty to brand new audiences through these platforms.
00:34:54
Speaker
Maybe I'll talk about a particular subject such as leadership or or cyber security or knowledge management, But now I get to talk about the work of Amnesty International in those contexts too. And I think so it creates all this opportunity to share.
00:35:07
Speaker
But I thought conversely, he also brings credibility back into the team that says, we ah we always told you we were good. You you thought we were good. But now an independent jury of our peers has said we're good and you can have some confidence in what we do and how we do it.
00:35:21
Speaker
And I think that's really important for an organization to have that validation. it works It's nice to have. The awards themselves are a fantastic by-product, and I'm sat here with a couple of them on Windows Hill next to me. But it's nice to be able to celebrate the work of my team to others and and to benchmark and ourselves against others to say, we all do this thing.
00:35:41
Speaker
But this year, for this reason, on this project, we did it great. We did it great. So that's that. ah but It's beautiful just that, that yeah, looking beyond yourself, looking toward the team, looking toward the organization, and really bringing that forward in in these awards. And then I love what you said about the networking being something where you don't know what you don't know. And it's really hard to get this across to people of networking being non-transactional. And it's something that's said all the time. but it's you
00:36:11
Speaker
You can't even know what the goal is at the beginning of it, right? Like there's sometimes when you'll do a really transactional networking, quote unquote thing, but there there's so much where it's, you you just don't know what is going to be the ripple effect, you know, three times on from starting networking. And it's just the right thing to do. And it's it's a really great use of your time, even if you can't justify it right away from the beginning.
00:36:35
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, like all things, it it can become, you know, what we call in a bit of a cottage industry. now you can spend all your time doing it. So sometimes you may need to be deliberate in how and where and with who.
00:36:45
Speaker
But as I said, connectivity breeds connectivity and you don't know what opportunities are out there. I think one piece of advice I would give to anyone that's kind of looking to step into this area is please don't go into networking with an ask.
00:36:58
Speaker
Don't go into networking looking for someone to help you first. Go in firstly seeing how you can help someone else. I think that's really important. Look first to to contribute before you take.
00:37:09
Speaker
It's bit like having a garden, right? You cultivate your plants and your flowers and you know yeah your vegetables, and then you harvest if you've done a good job. And it's a bit like that. So I first give before you ask to receive.
00:37:21
Speaker
Really, really, really great advice. And hope everyone is is listening to this in terms of how to approach networking in a way that that actually works and is the right way to approach it and makes you beneficial to your organization, to your team, to other people coming up in their careers. And ah Paul, you're just an exemplar of that. It's it's really great to see.
00:37:39
Speaker
Thank you.
Enhancing the Hiring Process
00:37:40
Speaker
On the hiring process, we have all of these kind of, you know, what what executives can do, what what individual job seekers can do. More organizationally, more systemically, how can we make the hiring process better?
00:37:54
Speaker
So firstly, I will say that some of my greatest successes have come from great hires. I say, I use the term my loosely, our organizations, in this or previous, have come from fantastic people hiring to the right role.
00:38:07
Speaker
So what advice would I give organizations to make the hiring process better? I think firstly, if you always do the same things, you'll always get the same results. So be open to try any new things and experiment, firstly.
00:38:19
Speaker
I think that's just a, you know, we always use this template. We always go to this recruiter. We always go to these channels. And we don't like the results we get. And we can't figure that out. But we're not open to change.
00:38:30
Speaker
I think that's that's really important to reconsider that. I think being inclusive and diverse in where you post a role to start with and and then consider how people may need to engage with you, not just how you want them to.
00:38:45
Speaker
What does that mean? So I'm going to post a role and I expect you to email me. Email isn't the place I had normally. Maybe I'm in social media. Maybe I'm um um um a telephone person. I think these are all channels you need to open up to allow neurodiverse individuals, individuals from different backgrounds, an opportunity to engage with you because it it first starts without exposure. So I think if you need to walk the talk in terms of those organizations that are inclusive and and diverse.
00:39:12
Speaker
So think about that. I think simple things like being inclusive and using things like gender neutral language in the role profile. How does that role read to me as an individual from a particular background or or as a female even? you know How does that role read to me? Does it feel exclusive? Does it feel like a role that they they wouldn't want me for, that I don't believe I can do? I think that they're really important, s subtle things.
00:39:36
Speaker
and get rid of the jargon. no Speak in plain English, plain whatever language I should say, but speak plainly. We don't need jargon. You don't need to tell us how how important you are or try and impress us with the words that you use.
00:39:48
Speaker
I think also consider the roles and phrases people might be looking for, not what you think something is. So, you know, I've heard a technology leader described in 10 different ways with 10 different titles and 10 different role profiles.
00:40:01
Speaker
but they're all doing the same thing. They're all managing cybersecurity or cloud or or whatever. So can we agree on some common terminology or maybe a common role profile? So, and maybe even by extension to that, what is a standardized role?
00:40:13
Speaker
If you want a business analysis, can we just agree what a business analyst is and all use the same terminology? These are little things that can make a big difference because I may be a fantastic business analyst, But I don't recognize in your role title or role profile that you're looking for a business analyst. It might not even come up in my search.
00:40:30
Speaker
So these are important accessibility tips that I think recruiters need to think about. And maybe also consider high professional standards and codes of conduct that people care about can add credibility to a candidate's application.
00:40:42
Speaker
and And they may tell you something about a candidate that you could not easily find it for yourself. So personally, I'm a great believer in professional standards. You'll know from my profile that I'm a chartered IT professional here in the UK.
00:40:54
Speaker
I'm also a fellow at the British Computer Society. you These things are important to me because I care about... roles like mine that are big bet hires for organizations. We have a lot of people responsibility we look to to solve problems, we look to you to create competitive advantage. These are big bet roles.
00:41:10
Speaker
So I think that they're high risk, you know, and having some professional standards and codes of conduct around these things, someone else that's validated my credibility, a jury of my peers, if you will, think these are important things. And this is kind of an insurance policy, right, for an organization.
00:41:24
Speaker
So think by extension, I think recruiters can think about that and what that looks like in terms of reducing risk in the hiring process and hopefully getting a better result with the candidate. Probably two more things I would offer Dan on this question. The first would be career-long learning at every level.
00:41:41
Speaker
So it's great getting someone through the door. How are you going keep them there? What does a candidate pipeline look like in the longer term? The employee experience. I think because it's, I will speak to someone if I know them at your organization before I i interview them.
00:41:55
Speaker
You may be fantastic and attractive and do all the jazz hands to get me through the door and then be terrible as soon as I sit down in my chair. you know And that's when my career stops because there's no opportunity to develop and grow. So I think continuing that journey past the candidate recruitment, past the hire is is really important because ultimately if the organization still needs to grow and adapt and so do your people.
00:42:16
Speaker
You don't just stagnate. And I just touched on it already, but I think what what does that employee experience and social contract look like to an individual? I can see your world profile. I can see the benefits.
00:42:27
Speaker
can see the salary. But how are we going to work together? What things are important to you? do they align with my values? Are we to go in the same direction? is there anything that, you know, are you going to do what you say you will do in terms of learning opportunity, benefits, future enhancements, whatever those things are?
00:42:43
Speaker
Because that's going to make me turn up or turn up for work. you know I'll stop there couldn't actually saw Yeah, this is it's all really useful in putting yourself in the candidate shoes and imagining if you're a candidate from a non-traditional background, what might be barriers for you here and which of these are necessary barriers and which of these are are completely unnecessary. You can just take these away. And really thinking and in that way is is is important for people. And i just love the way you phrase all of this in very common sense terms and devoid of the jargon of...
00:43:18
Speaker
you know, everything everything that you've said could be, you know, super jargon heavy and really academic and and loaded with things. And it's this is all this is all really practical stuff if you sit down and think about it and approach it.
00:43:29
Speaker
I hope so. i was wondering i've I've got a sinful mind, Daniel. Brain short words.
00:43:36
Speaker
No, it's a much much more of that is needed in this without without getting overly simplistic and kind of glossing past a lot of the stuff either. So on that note, I know we've talked about where to where to look for kind of new resources. Have there been any books or other resources of any kind, and I'm not not wed to books by by any stretch of the imagination, that you found particularly useful as a leader that you'd recommend to others?
Educational Resources and Career Management
00:44:01
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, I already talked about sort of these large language models and how they can help you in your your learning journey, right? as So I won't touch back in on that. And there's, you know pick a large language model of choice and leave that to the audience to think about. But they can help tailor you a plan for what you want to learn and explain it and however you want it explained.
00:44:19
Speaker
So think that that's one good resource. um I have the distinct privilege of having access to LinkedIn Learning in my current role to benefit of my current employment. And I really enjoy using that because it it gives me bite-sized things I can go and look and listen about. I can save them for later. I can listen on my phone or my laptop or wherever. So I find LinkedIn Learning quite useful.
00:44:38
Speaker
Other learning tools are available. But I enjoy that. And I said, I don't read too much because I learned through other ways. But there are a couple of books that I've read. And and the one I would call out, again, because we talked about careers and development and recruitment and those sorts of things today, is a particular book called Bulletproof Your Career.
00:44:57
Speaker
and that's by a lady called Patricia Romboletti. that talks about how you as an individual can bulletproof your career and and the acceptance that yeah there are no longer 20, 30 year jobs.
00:45:08
Speaker
right you know You will move multiple times in your career and hey, you can manage that. like You manage your resilience, manage your preparedness. And I think it it was a great, simple, actionable read for me and I really enjoyed that.
00:45:21
Speaker
Yeah, there's real antifragility a lot of senses and in terms of your career and just knowing that it's going to get disrupted all the time and you want to be leading up. know And sometimes you don't see the stuff coming, right? It's environmental, it's financial.
00:45:34
Speaker
and And no one wants to happen, but you might find yourself looking for a new role. and I think so. It's important to be prepared because at the time you find yourself, unfortunately, maybe looking for a new career, you might not be in the right place to be able to recraft a CV, to think about the skills you have, to think about your achievements.
00:45:50
Speaker
it talks a little bit about, you know good best practice and how you can take care of those things. It's a great recommendation. I will definitely add it to our list and check it out myself for sure. And yeah, i want to double down on LinkedIn learning. this is I know a lot of people have either an organizational account or a career account. Sometimes you'll have this baked in. If you know somebody who does, they can get the the the free trial for two months. This is always a good...
00:46:13
Speaker
good option for people. I did this when I was studying for my PMP, the project management certification, and they had a great course on it. And it was it was amazing. it It was really, really useful. And it was free, basically. You know, if you if you got the two-month trial or you paid for the career account or something, and yeah there's so much on there that is just at your fingertips, ready to be learned. And and I would encourage people to do that.
00:46:33
Speaker
Yeah. And I find it useful for me because I can learn about a whole subject or a particular chapter and it that just works for me. That's really, really great advice again. So Paul, if listeners want to follow along with your work and get in touch, how can they how can they do that? I try to post what I can on LinkedIn, but I'd love to connect. As I said earlier, I believe in the power of networking, so I'd love to connect with anyone on LinkedIn that that feels appropriate to do so.
00:46:57
Speaker
Great. Awesome. we'll ah We'll go ahead and put those ah links in the show notes at ContemplousLeadership.com. And Paul, thank you so much again for joining us. This was such a pleasure. And you've had an amazing career journey and you're an inspiration to a lot of people out there who are going through a similar things. So just thank you for all you're doing on this. Thanks for taking the time to share all of your insights listeners.
00:47:18
Speaker
Very kind you to say and a privilege to be listened to. So thank you.