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Oriana Papin-Zoghbi on Bringing Groundbreaking Cancer Diagnostics to Market, the Power of Networking for Founders, and the New Wave of Women's Leadership
60 Plays5 months ago
Oriana Papin-Zoghbi, CEO and Co-Founder of AOA Dx (aoadx.com), a biotech startup focused on innovative early cancer diagnostics for women, joins host Dan Freehling (contempusleadership.com) to discuss her journey to becoming a biotech leader, strategies in raising over $20 million in funding, the power of networking, and the critical need for more research in women's health. Oriana and Dan also cover hiring and firing and creating a culture of team empowerment and results. This episode provides valuable insights for visionary leaders and entrepreneurs in the healthcare sector and beyond. Recommended reading: “Shoe Dog” by Phil Knight. Show notes at forwardlookingleadership.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to Forward-Looking Leadership and AOA DX
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Forward-Looking Leadership, a podcast for visionary leaders building future-ready organizations. I'm your host, Dan Freeling. I'm the founder of the Kojiken Consulting Practice Contempos Leadership, developing the leaders and teams you want in charge through cutting-edge approaches and common sense solutions. I'm honored to be joined today by Orianna Pappen-Zogge.
00:00:22
Speaker
Oriana is the CEO and co-founder of AOA DX, a biotech startup created to ensure that women have access to the most innovative early detection platform and their fight against cancer.
00:00:34
Speaker
Recently honored in Inc.'s 2022 Top 100 Female
Orianna's Achievements and AOA DX's Mission
00:00:37
Speaker
Founders for her work in ovarian cancer diagnosis, Oriana has a wealth of knowledge and expertise bringing disruptive diagnostics to market and changing the landscape of clinical practice. Oriana has raised over $20 million dollars in funding for AOA-DX and been accepted into numerous competitive accelerators, including Y Combinator, Mass Challenge, Springboard Enterprises, and Mass Medic Ignite.
00:01:00
Speaker
Listeners, you're in for an insightful conversation with a visionary leader in the field of women's health and diagnostics. Thanks for joining me on Forward-Looking Leadership, Orianna. Thank you for having me, Dan. Yeah, really appreciate you taking the time. I'm so excited for this and to catch up along the way as well. Me too. So first, could you share with listeners a bit about what you're up to at AOA DX? Of course. At AOA, we are developing early cancer diagnostics for women. What does that mean?
00:01:27
Speaker
We are essentially looking for innovative ways to diagnose cancer sooner when it's still in its earlier stages. And the way we're doing that, it's been developing a blood-based platform to be able to diagnose cancer through blood samples known as liquid biopsy. The biggest challenge that women have today is that research and development hasn't really advanced in the field of women's health. There's been a
Motivation Behind AOA DX and Collaborations
00:01:53
Speaker
lack of funding. there's been a lack of focus, and we are trying to have an impact there by specifically focusing on the health needs of women and by looking for ways that we can diagnose cancer faster. Thanks for sharing that. It's such important work, obviously, and just really glad you're able to play a part in making this happen. Specifically on women's health and ovarian cancer, what is it that draws you to these issues? I think there are two things. um People have asked me, why did you start AOA? And it stemmed from indignation of the status of care
00:02:24
Speaker
for women is terrible, not just in the US but all over the world. the way the women are women the way The way that women go through the healthcare care system where there aren't specific tests, there aren't specific ways to identify symptoms for them or specific ways to treat them. And the way women have in the medical world been treated as small men. And I think that indignation drove me to want to do something about it. On the side of ovarian cancer specifically, ovarian cancer is diagnosed when it's late stage, so that means stage three and four, 80% of the time. So 80% of the time we're catching it too late. And what does too late mean? It means that the five-year survival is less than 30%. So by the time we're diagnosing women, we're basically giving them a death sentence. And again, that's indignation. It shouldn't be that way. we should It should be better for women and and honestly for all cancer diagnostics, but this is where we've decided to focus.
00:03:23
Speaker
So when we learned about that, we really felt that we wanted to do something about it. How could we help diagnose ovarian cancer earlier? How could we be a part of the solution? And that's when we ended up partnering with a research team at McGill University in Montreal. They were looking at a new class of biomarkers that were in the blood. And we were thinking about a way that we could turn that into groundbreaking technology that we could actually bring to the clinic so that we could have an impact in this patient group.
Challenges in Women's Healthcare
00:03:49
Speaker
So women can actually be diagnosed sooner, and when they are diagnosed, that five-year survival rate goes up to 90%. And so that's really what mattered to us the most, is can we have an impact on these patient lives? Just really incredible. um Specifically on this not treating women as small men, I've i've heard this before, and I would love you just to expand on that ah for the audience of ah what that what that really entails. So essentially, if you look at the way that medicine was taught and medicine has been practiced,
00:04:19
Speaker
A huge part of it was around adapting what was studied, researched, created for men for a smaller version of them. So essentially, women weren't required to be in clinical research until 1993. I am older than how long we have had we have been required to be in research. And the requirement to use female mice in studies ah alongside male mice is younger than that. It hasn't even been 20 years. And so if you think about every medicine that has been developed, every treatment pathway, every diagnostic pathway, unless it's related to pregnancy or something that's really specific to women, if you look at cardiology, autoimmune, cancer, all these different areas in which we now know
00:05:09
Speaker
that so much of this presents differently in women.
Orianna's Educational Journey and Career Shift
00:05:12
Speaker
The symptoms of a heart attack are so different for a woman than they are for a man. The way rheumatoid arthritis presents for women is so different than it presents for a man. But the way medication is prescribed or the way research is ah done is just, well, you're a smaller man. You are smaller in frame, you're smaller in bone density, you're often lighter. And that's how it's adapted without actually researching and understanding the differences between the the the biological sex differences between male and female, and then adapting technology to adjust for those differences.
00:05:45
Speaker
you can definitely see where the rightful and righteous indignation is coming from on this. It's just outrageous. And again, so glad you're able to play a role in addressing this in the cancer realm as well. For those listening in, Orianna and I are friends from our time as undergrads at Boston University, and we were in a student group together, which we'll probably get into in some of these later questions as well. And Orianna, if I recall correctly, were you an economics major and took more of a a business route during your time at BU and immediately after? um And if so, how do you approach learning about the science and medical aspects of biotech beyond the the business components? So actually, when I went to BU, I was pre-med. And yes, I started BU as pre-med. I did one semester, because I went to BU thinking I was going to be a doctor. So I always had this interest in the sciences, but that sort of evolved down the way. So I went to BU thinking I was going to be a doctor. I went pre-med. I did one semester of biochem.
00:06:45
Speaker
And I was like, Oh God, this is not for me. Um, I won't be able, like, I won't be successful here alone, but I didn't really know of a career. I don't really understand much back then of a career in the lab sciences. Like, I mean, I've been back to the BU campus since the the concept of entrepreneurship or an innovation lab or all that didn't exist when you and I were at BU now, like it's so, so different. And so it was like, you go into consulting, you go into a lab,
00:07:11
Speaker
you go into, you know, research. Startup wasn't even something people were talking about. And so I went in thinking I was going to be a doctor and realized that, okay, I really like the sciences, but I don't really want a path as a doctor. I was actually really good at economics in high school. So why don't I switch majors just so that I can get my GPA back up? Oh, and also I love international relations because I've grown up all over the world and this seems interesting to me. So let me actually study something that I like and I'll kind of figure it out as I go.
Linking Academics with Internships
00:07:36
Speaker
So I double majored in econ and international relations. And from there I ended up doing a few internships and really getting some work experience around what does it mean to be an industry. And it was through there that I learned that I could combine sort of my interest and passion and sort of my my people side, excuse me, with my interest in the sciences. And so I ended up after, in my senior year of BU, I ended up taking an internship at a company called Amish International, which was focused on women's health on developing a test to diagnose if oil and women's water had broken too early.
00:08:08
Speaker
And I just fell in love with it. It was so innovative. It was so groundbreaking. It was impactful. I was on the business side of things. And my role was, honestly, I started translating. And it was like, how do you translate the um marketing material into these different languages? Because I spoke a bunch of languages. But from there, it translated into how do you, the reason we were translating this is because we wanted to increase the access of the technology in countries outside of the US. And so how do you work with healthcare systems and partners outside of the US to bring your technology?
00:08:37
Speaker
And there I just, I learned so much on the job, on the field. And that's what kind of combined my interest in like the life sciences in the business side, in the kind of the global side of things. And and I ended up staying in women's health and having an entire career in women's health now.
00:08:53
Speaker
It's such an interesting journey. Thanks for sharing that. And I love how you brought up the Boston University that we went to versus the one now with more of a focus on innovation and startups and all of that. I guess on that same note, what other changes would you recommend colleges make based on all you know now about running a successful startup? I think there should be just as much focus on getting internship experience and exposure to industry as like your GPA and extracurricular activities. Um,
00:09:21
Speaker
i used to I had a friend in Northeastern at the time, and I was like, why would you study for five years and do this co-op program? And now I get it. And I don't know that you necessarily just need a co-op program, but every summer, colleges should be helping students find internships, or find work experience, or find mentorship, or just connecting with career paths. Because studying economics for four years is not alone, I should say, does not help figure out what you want to do with your life, in my opinion. I think it's a really strong foundation. I think the extracurriculars are great. and But I think really having a focus on how do we network? How do we connect our students to internships, to mentorship, to guidance, to industry? How do we encourage them to you know go to industry conferences or where it may be?
00:10:15
Speaker
to get exposure to how do you translate this education into a job that you're so passionate about?
Aligning Career with Passion
00:10:20
Speaker
Because what ends up happening, you graduate and you're like, oh, I have to make income, I have to get a job. And then you end up in a job, right? And sometimes you end up in a job that you're passionate about and you love. Sometimes you end up in a job that has to pay the bills and then you kind of end up in a 40 year career wondering, what did I do with my career? And sometimes you end up somewhere with golden handcuffs and you're like, I wish I wasn't doing this, but the pay is so well, I can't leave, right?
00:10:42
Speaker
And if you're lucky enough, if you're fortunate enough to find a job that you're passionate about that pays you what you know you need to be paid, you're so lucky and that ends up being the rarest of cases. And I think that's because we don't help our students figure out what that passion is. And we're so focused on getting an education so that we can make an income.
00:11:01
Speaker
It's all all such great points. yeah That matchmaking early, that trial period, that figuring out where you fit in the real world and industry and working with mentors and all of that is so important. and I think you're exactly right. A lot of people end up with jobs that are you know the golden handcuffs example and not really what they want to be doing. and On the other side of that, it's all this you know follow your bliss stuff that doesn't have any real world applicability and yeah figuring out a way to do both. And it's so clear you've been able to do that from the way you've been talking here. And I just think more people need to do that to really come alive. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think when you're passionate about what you do, you're better at it. you are you are more You're more keen to improve. You're more keen to take feedback. You're more keen to to do something different.
00:11:48
Speaker
And you're more keen to grow in your career, which is eventually you know what leads to leadership. It's so right and also not working so you can separately at some later point, quote unquote, live your life. you know You're obviously thriving in what you're doing and working hard along the way, but it doesn't sound like it's this grueling process of just working and hating it the whole time either.
Networking and Fundraising During COVID
00:12:09
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:12:11
Speaker
That's great. it's It's so great to hear. So you've successfully raised a lot of capital for this business. I'd love for you to share your advice for other founders on navigating that whole process, how to successfully raise money. Back to networking, right? So when I started AOA, I had never raised money before. I didn't have a network of investors. I had been in the startup world, but I hadn't been a founder before. And so I had to start from the ground up and I think one of the most important things that I had to do that I was also mentored in was to develop a network. At the time when I raised AOA's first round, this was the COVID era. And so everything was on Zoom and everything was virtual, which was helpful on the one end of things because it meant you know a lot less travel when you were a bootstrapped startup that make things much more possible and accessible. On the other hand, it lost kind of the opportunity for that
00:13:10
Speaker
human connection, spontaneous connection that comes from traditional networking around conferences or events. And so I think, you know, what's happened over the last four years that it's become a combination of that. And so number one, I think, ah develop a network, develop the confidence to do cold outreach, because if you're starting from the bottom up, you don't always have the introductions to all the right places you want to be. So it's important to, you know, develop the confidence to do good cold outreach. And then I think The other part that helped me the most is my prior um and before starting AOA, I had a long career in sales. And I worked in in complex sales and partnership sales. and And fundraising is sales. And fundraising is requiring you to to manage a funnel, to manage your opportunities, to do a lot of outreach, um to follow up on on when you say you're going to do something to an investor, to follow up on that. And just managing that process really meticulously
00:14:06
Speaker
I think was key to us being able to to raise that money. So i if I remember correctly for our last round, I spoke to 250 new investors. I spoke to many of them multiple times over a long period. i did you know it's It's a lot of work, but I think it's that combination of putting yourself out there and establishing a network and then being really meticulous in the process that you you follow through.
Policy Work and Supporting Female Founders
00:14:30
Speaker
Such valuable advice for people. So both that network and then doing all the hard work to really run through the wholesale process with it and making sure you're focused on that as well. For the gender health gap, we've talked a bit about this in one of your previous answers and how passionate you are about addressing it. Where do you outside of work focus your advocacy in this space? Yeah. So there are a few areas that I do. um Right now, I've actually been really involved in policy work.
00:14:56
Speaker
And that's really around how do we increase dollars, research dollars from a government level into women's health research. And I know this can get really political, and that's not the intention here. The intention is women's health research, which spans everything from reproductive health, but you'll hear many of us say women are more than their ability to have children, to cancer health, to autoimmune, to cardio, to but bone, to brain.
00:15:26
Speaker
um And the idea is that there haven't there hasn't been enough dedicated research dollars that goes here. If you look at how research is funded and how much focus there is in other areas, it's incredibly disproportionate to the 2% that goes into women's health. So I've been focusing a lot of my effort on advocacy on policy makers on how do we make sure that there are more research dollars going to to women's health. The other area that I've been really um focused on is working with other founders and juggling this when you become a mom and you also run a company situation. And so that's been, that's been a little bit more private. Those are more one to one conversations with founders. We've created a few founder groups where we chat, where we can all be really open with each other. But and the expectations I think that are made on women on what their role should be, either in motherhood or in business and
00:16:24
Speaker
trying to break down some of those stereotypes and really be encouraging to you can create whatever life you choose to create, right? My life will be very different to other people's lives. And that's completely fine. ah But we don't talk about it nearly enough. And we don't provide each other with tools and solutions or encouragement for whichever direction we want
Modern Leadership and Team Empowerment
00:16:44
Speaker
to take. And that's something that I've become really passionate about.
00:16:47
Speaker
Again, just great to hear on the policy front and advocating with policymakers and this community of other women founders as well who are mothers. It speaks to everything you've discussed so far, too, in terms of channeling that indignation and also being able to build and use your network and having that be an integral part of what you're doing. So there's so many through lines here for folks as they're hearing these answers. I really appreciate that. I think, you know, one of the things that I'm really passionate about as well and motivated is how do you encourage people to get into either entrepreneurship or to really think about how they are as leaders. And a lot of the rhetoric out there is outdated, irrelevant. And you know they're I think there's a new wave of leadership, and I'm excited to be a part of that. And I'm excited to encourage other people also to think about that in their own careers. What do you mean by the outdated rhetoric in this new wave? I think, historically, women that rose to the top
00:17:46
Speaker
were either viewed or encouraged to be without children or to be disconnected from their family life. And it was like you had to put on you had to put on a face to who you were as a leader in the company and who you were in your personal life. And those two could not interconnect in any way.
00:18:05
Speaker
And what we're seeing is that that actually doesn't make for the best leadership and that actually doesn't make for the best team engagement. And at the end of the day, that doesn't make for the best results either. I remember when I was first raising money, I had an investor make a comment on, well, you and your co-founder are young women. And what are your plans on having children while you're running the company? In my mind, I was like, my male co-founder would never be asked this question, right?
00:18:32
Speaker
And I think that's the point is that like, there's this expectation that leaders, you have to separate that or you have to be a certain kind of way. And I think the, the new rhetoric that I'm so excited to hear and be a part of is leaders are at the end of the day are measured on, on your success and are measured on your ability to, to empower your teams, right? You can have, and I think it's a combination of those because you can have a really awesome team and your results are not good.
00:19:02
Speaker
You can have growth and you can have results, but a terribly toxic work environment. And for me, what's so important is how do I get both? How do I have a really empowered team that is performing and producing the results that the company needs to be successful? If you ask anybody at AOA today, what is the number one most important thing to Ariana? I would argue, hopefully, that most people will say her team. It is our number one value. We have three values at AOA.
00:19:31
Speaker
We are a team, we are critical thinkers, and we are results-driven. and And we believe that they build off of each other. We will not get the results if we don't think critically. And we cannot think critically if we don't build a strong team.
00:19:46
Speaker
This is awesome. I talk so much about the people side and the business side of organizations and how when those are working in harmony, and it really leads to the best environment and the best results. and Those are so interconnected as you mentioned. and I just love this edition of critical thinking into this. and I feel like it's something that's so lacking in today's world especially. and There's so much of this, you know, following quote unquote best practices, following trends, and not really innovating, doing that innovation theater kind of stuff a lot of the time, but actually sitting down and thinking is is something that is able to put you at an advantage. And it's so cool to hear that this is one of your company values. Yeah, I completely agree.
00:20:25
Speaker
So you did a lot of these accelerator programs, including Y Combinator, which many people will have heard of for sure, and some others as well. Beyond what you expected to get out of them, what surprising or counterintuitive lessons have you taken away that have proven the most useful to you as a leader? It's a little bit unique. So what I found surprising, I think may maybe may have been obvious to others. But for me, I was blown away by the founder community.
00:20:53
Speaker
and how much that has, how much I continue to be involved many years after doing my cohort. And I think maybe maybe it's because I went into YC a little bit more naively and I didn't know as much about the program, before the fourth month that I applied to it, but I went into Y Combinator to specifically work with Serbi, to specifically work on ovarian cancer, and I got all that I wanted out of it.
00:21:21
Speaker
And I got a founder community that has many of which have become friendships, guidance, mentorship, investors. ah And I think that today has been one of the greatest experience of my startup career that's That's wonderful to hear. I didn't know they did a lot of the community efforts, so that's surprising on my end too. It goes right in line with everything you've been saying throughout our conversation on the importance of network and people focus. and For me personally, it tracks with some of the better professional development experiences I've had. so
00:21:54
Speaker
I did a master's in organizational leadership and learning that had a cohort model and that was different from my MBA, which didn't have a cohort model. And I'm still very good friends and keep in touch with all these people from the master's in organizational leadership and learning. And similarly with my coaching education, they had cohort models and it's become a real professional community for
Balancing Digital Efficiency with Human Connections
00:22:15
Speaker
me. And I think it's just such a key thing for people to keep in mind when designing, learning and leadership development opportunities is don't neglect the cohort, don't neglect the community as a part of your design. 100%. Yeah, 100%. I think so much has changed in the digital era, where convenience of being online or doing things quickly or efficiently have trumped community building. And for me personally, I'm an extrovert and like, that's such a shame.
00:22:48
Speaker
like the ability to connect with humans on what you're doing, right? And to get guidance on your company and hiring and what it might be, but also on the struggles on what doesn't work on things that you don't necessarily want to talk about, but you feel safe to because you're with the right people. Um, that's what, that's what makes the human experience. Right. And I feel like we've entered a world which is all about hyper efficiency and Oftentimes it's viewed that those connections don't fit into my efficiency and I'm not getting something tangible out of it. um But if you ask me today, what has shaped you as a leader? It's 100% other leaders. It's not a single course. It's not a single book. It's 100% conversation with other leaders.
00:23:43
Speaker
I couldn't agree more. It's something where I do think we have this obsession with optimizing and maximizing every single process no matter what the point of it is. and This even extends into our personal life with you know all this advice out there on personal productivity and how do I streamline and all of that kind of stuff. and To an extent, I think it's great when you can get rid of busy work and you can automate what can be automated and all of that. But yeah, if you're missing that serendipity that comes from human connection by doing that, it's just not worth it by any
Hiring Practices at AOA DX
00:24:12
Speaker
stretch. and the best things in business and life and my experience are relationships and it's so refreshing to hear that from you. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So you recently wrote a piece in Fast Company on hiring and firing, two-part question for you. First, why that topic and second, what advice would you share with other executives on hiring and firing? I decided to write about that and
00:24:36
Speaker
Um, because I think it was one of the hardest things I had to learn as a leader of a fast growing startup. And everybody tells you this, right? Raising money is hard. Absolutely. Hiring the right people is super hard. Building the right culture is hard. And you're like, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. But for me across the board, hiring and firing has been the hardest.
00:25:02
Speaker
And I think it's because you feel so much pressure when you raise money as ah as a venture-backed startup to accomplish things really, really quickly. And that means you need to hire the right people to do that. And so everybody says hire slow, fire fast. But if you hire slow, you feel like you're running out of time to do what you need to do. And if you fire fast, you're going to have a gap or you're going to have an issue. And so that's what I was like, I don't i don't know how this applies. And how do you actually implement this? and I learned it. I learned it the hard way that that hiring too fast means that you have the wrong people and that you're not going to make your goals anyways. And firing too slowly means that you have the wrong people and you're not going to make your goals anyways. And so again, when you're hyper fixated on this efficiency, right? Just get somebody in, get it done. It doesn't matter who they are. It doesn't matter if they don't fit the culture. It does matter. It matters so much. And I think when we learned that the hard way through a few
00:26:00
Speaker
not right fit hires right at AOA. And also we, we waited for our recently hired, I mean, by recently in March we hired our chief scientific officer. Um, and I think we made it, we waited easily five months for her. No, ro longer, probably eight months from the moment we started recruiting. And I was in a position where I was like, I just need somebody to today. And the best decision I ever made was waiting to hire the right person.
00:26:28
Speaker
And then we found her waiting for her to be able to join. It has turned our R and&D team around. not Not that there was anything wrong with our R and&D team, but I am not a scientific leader. My co-founders and I could not lead them the way they needed to be led, the way they needed to be coached and the way they needed to be taught. And now that's such a strong team and it's because we have the right person. So I feel like I wrote about it because I learned it a little bit the hard way and I was hoping that if I could share some insights
00:27:00
Speaker
you know could consider it when when they go through it. Thanks again for sharing that. It's something I think is so key and something I see a lot with coaching clients, especially those who are fundamentally decent people and who don't like the idea of having to fire people or having to say no to someone who might be an okay fit for a hire but isn't really that breakthrough hire you need in that moment. And it's something where, you know, when you see this in a functioning culture and see what it can do to a team to your point and see what it opens up for other people in a company,
00:27:31
Speaker
Hire slow, fire fast is one of those truisms that makes a lot of sense and leaders should really keep it in mind.
Diversity in Leadership and Company Culture
00:27:37
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. hundred percent but of my, I was chatting with one of my first hires and we were going back and forth with something and he said, you, the founders are truly breaking all the rules and showing us what a great company can actually look like. And I think that was my proudest accomplishment, Dan. It's not the papers we've published. It's not the money we've raised is that our our employees feel that we are trying really hard to make this a great company.
00:28:04
Speaker
It's beautiful to hear, Orianna, and that being what stands out to you just says everything about you as a leader. And, you know, I talk a lot about this with people, but there's a benefit to having your own company, to being a leader, to being an executive, where you get to make these changes that you want to see. And it's just such a benefit to the business. It's a competitive advantage over these more established businesses or stayed businesses that aren't willing to think outside of the box. And it's just great for the team and great for the culture. Yeah, couldn't agree more.
00:28:35
Speaker
So you've lived and worked all over the world and you speak so many languages and you've been influenced by so many cultures. How do you see this impacting your leadership? That's a great question. I think i think it gives me the ability to always be thinking about how is this perceived from the other side. So when I grew up, like you said, I spoke many of different languages. i I came across many different cultures and I learned that business is done in so many different ways. And I think that was my first exposure to thinking outside of the box by by simply living outside of the box. Living, not in the US or, you know, moving to Europe, doing, you know, I was working on selling HPV testing in East Africa or in the Middle East Asia, or South America, all over and just what could have been perceived as thinking outside of the box was just experiencing somebody else's perception. I think that brought so many different ways of how something can be done and that mindset of there isn't just one way.
00:29:32
Speaker
Because I got to live it. I got to live that you can do sales in five different ways. You can do marketing in so many different ways. You can do company growth in so many different ways. Has led me to believe that at AOA, no one way is the only way. And my instinct is to be like is to ask, what's another way we could do that? Or is there a different option? I don't take anything for face value anymore. Sometimes I think my team finds me a little bit annoying because I'll propose something and I'll be like, is there another way?
00:30:00
Speaker
that way sounds too slow, or it's gonna cost too much money, or whatever it is. And I'm like, is there another way? And they're like, well, there isn't. And I'm like, well, can we invent another way? Right? And I think that comes from this just being having experienced so many different cultures is that I know that there are so many different ways to do everyday life that I'm constantly challenging the status quo.
00:30:19
Speaker
What a great perspective to share with people. I couldn't agree more with that. I've noticed in working across so many companies and with so many different leaders and I think it's a big problem. well first There's so much great about someone who has worked in one particular organizational culture for so long or one particular national culture for so long.
00:30:41
Speaker
And the big downside of it can be that there's just one way of thinking and it can be tough to break out of that. yeah And back to the previous points about why are we doing this process in the first place and why is it applied to us as coming back as well? Yeah, I completely agree. I think the more open our minds are, and I think this also comes down to the point around diversity, right? Like the more open our minds are,
00:31:06
Speaker
to hire people from other cultures that speak other languages where maybe English is not their native language, but their role does not require them to be perfect English speakers, right? All the way to just the way that we do things, I think makes for more successful companies.
Communication and Executive Coaching in Leadership
00:31:21
Speaker
Yeah. So on that note, how do you approach diversity in both your hiring and your culture overall? That is a great question. And I would say this is something that we are always learning more about ourselves.
00:31:35
Speaker
There was a first part of it when when we started the company, Anna, Alex and I, we were really focused on female leadership. And that was because we'd worked for two other women's health companies that were led by men. The board was entirely men. ah Yet they were there was one board meeting specifically where they were talking about, well, if our test requires them to use a speculum exam, I mean, how painful is the speculum anyways? And I'm like, who who are you asking? None of you have ever had a speculum exam.
00:32:05
Speaker
so you know so So that was the first part of it, is that like we need women, um we need allies, we need men 100%, but we need more women advocating at the top of women's health companies. So that was the first part. And then it's just been really purposeful around our hiring, around our our even our board seats, all the way to our leadership team, all the way to our employees. we are I'm really proud about the diversity on our team, both in gender, but also in cultural diversity. we We're in our lab is in Denver, and so it is Denver's a transplant state. And we've gotten people that have I mean, two years from our lab, she's originally from Mongolia and moved from Mongolia to do her PhD in the US and then stayed. And now it was in Texas when we found her and moved her to Denver to join our team. Right.
00:33:00
Speaker
Vuna from our team is originally from Hawaii and he was in Massachusetts when we found him and we moved him towards, we you know moved him to Denver as well. And then there's individuals like myself or Anna. Anna was originally Russian, a Russian immigrant and moved to the US s when she was very, very young, grew up on the East Coast most of her life home and now she's the reason, I joke with everybody, she's the reason we're in Denver.
00:33:22
Speaker
um But I think that's what makes for such a culturally rich company. And um you know when when when each when when somebody travels back either to their home or to whatever, they bring treats back into the office and we get to experience each other's cultures. And it's just such a wonderful way to connect with humans. It sounds that way and it's wonderful to hear and you see all the relational advantages of it and then all the business advantages of it too in terms of getting the best talent.
00:33:48
Speaker
What advice would you give to other people with co-founders or a leadership team they're working with on how to maintain those relationships as a company grows and expands? I think you have to invest in the relationship. Like anything, especially in in the startup world, things change so much. And our roles have changed. Our responsibilities have changed. The company has changed. The dynamics have changed.
00:34:15
Speaker
And we need to adapt. And if you don't invest in that relationship, so for us, what that looked like was constant communication. So always having, you know, now we call it the founder huddle, um, where sometimes we talk about something super relevant and strategic. And sometimes we talk about how hard shit is, right? Um, we invested in executive coaching and we had our coach work with all three of us together and then separately as well. And I think that was incredibly valuable to have all different perspectives. Um, but then also we, we,
00:34:43
Speaker
at the height of our coaching, we worked with him or there were there was two of them as a team, we're with both of them on a weekly basis. And now we're on an every other week basis as well. And then we also brought in different perspectives, right? I talked to founders all the time, I talked to other founders, CEOs to gain their perspectives and on Alex do the same and just ah to Um, get other, again, back to the network, get other perspectives of how things are done. So I think it's investing in it. You have to invest in in the founder relationship and you have to invest in the growth of your roles and and and the company, uh, and not a assume that how you did things when you started the company, it's going to be enough to.
00:35:20
Speaker
as the company grow couldn't agree more on investing in this. And it's really interesting that you worked with this executive coaching team. And it's just something I believe in so strongly. And I've worked with several coaches as a leader and sometimes multiple at the same time on different areas of focus. And I've worked with my current coach for three and a half years now. And it's probably my biggest single line item expenditure, but it's just so worth it. And it's unbelievable the difference it can make as a leader, as someone who's building a business. and It can be tough to describe, and i don't I don't know if people fully grasp it if you haven't really worked with a coach before. If you had to describe the value of it to other leaders based on your experience, how would you describe that? the The way that I would phrase it is, you don't know what you don't know, and you don't know what you're missing out on until you work with a good executive coach. And the way that it has brought value to me is it it has taught me to be a better leader.
00:36:20
Speaker
It has taught me to be a better manager. Important note, being a leader and a manager are two different things. It has taught me to be a better founder. It has taught me how to show up at work when I'm frustrated and unable to just like not show my emotions, but how to channel that into something that can you know help my team. It has taught me um different strategies and tactics and tools that I can actually turn around and use in my everyday work. So it's just been so invaluable because I was not a founder before. I've never been a CEO. And quite honestly, even if I do another company, I would probably still work with an executive coach, because at that point, I'll never have done a second company. There's always something you don't know. And I'm not saying that your executive coach will know everything, but they'll be able to guide you in ways that you might not be able to do yourself to help figure it out.
00:37:15
Speaker
yeah that knowledge gain, that challenging you, that helping you show up in the way you want to show up. And all of that is just so key. And I think it's something that's so amorphous for a lot of people of what is the value of coaching. And it's really helpful to hear it from your perspective as a leader of what this was like for you.
Management vs. Leadership
00:37:31
Speaker
You mentioned the difference between leadership and management. It's something I think about a lot and talk about a lot, but I'd love to hear your take on what you see as that difference and why it matters for leaders and managers to know the difference. I think Being a manager, assuming you have direct reports, is a part of being a leader, but it's not the only part of being a leader. The way I view management is the everyday supervision of your team. What are they accomplishing? Where do they need support? How do you unlock a bottleneck for them? How do you think about their performance? It's the part of the job that you probably most associate with tasks and action items, right?
00:38:16
Speaker
And then there's being a leader. Being a leader is who you are. Being a leader is the example that you set. Being a leader is walking the talk. Being a leader is and inspiring people. Being a leader is going beyond what you have to do when nobody is looking and serving your team. And I think you can be a good manager and sometimes be a poor leader.
00:38:44
Speaker
You can be a good leader and sometimes be a poor manager. And I think it's the combination of both that often makes for the most successful teams. So well said, Orianna. There's a doing versus being element to this. And I think it's such an underlying concept in the coaching world, too, of you really have to be a leader, to be an effective leader. And it can't just be something you turn on and turn off when you feel like it or you know do for show or do for optics. And you know that works to an extent, but it's not going to maximize your leadership potential. And to do that, it has to be integral to who you are all the time. And people can tell when you're faking it a mile away.
Influences and Preferred Business Narratives
00:39:22
Speaker
100%. 100%. I couldn't agree more. So you mentioned the relationships being where most of your learning as a leader has been. Outside of that, what kind of books or any other resources of any kind have had an impact on you as a leader? I will confess that I am not the best reader. um And that's something that I'm working on. But I think that there are probably two things that one book and one, I don't know, Ted podcast video snippets that I have had like a really big influence on me. I read um Shoe Dog, of the autobiography of the Nike founder, right and it blew my mind. Because I can't, this is just me, and I know this is not everybody, I can't read like a business handbook. If you want to be a good communicator, here are seven steps to do. i just I can't absorb it, I don't enjoy it, but when you tell me a story, I am all in it.
00:40:18
Speaker
And the story of Nike in those early days was a story of resilience and grit. And it spoke volumes to how I want to be as a person and how um and who I aspire to be. So I think that had a huge impact on how I view leadership. And then the second is either TikToks or videos by Simon Sinek. I really enjoy how he talks about some really complex, complex quite simply. And again, how he tells the narrative around those. I think those are probably the two that the two pieces of content that I have most enjoyed. um And then the other is like honestly going to conferences and talking to other founders. Like I said, this is not a reflection of reading. I think reading is fantastic and people should read. I am just a poor reader. In this version of my life, which is just, I used to read so much
00:41:16
Speaker
But this version of my life, which is I'm a mom to a toddler and I'm running a startup and I travel every every single week and I know it sounds like those are plenty of opportunities to read. Just unfortunately, it's not the best way that I can save content today.
Conclusion and Tease of Next Episode
00:41:30
Speaker
However, reading is great. For all the kids out there. For all the kids out there, keep reading.
00:41:38
Speaker
No, I definitely feel you on that. The audio books have been a godsend for me and they're the only way I can really get reading done these days. But yeah it's such good points all the way around that i I do tend to agree on the business books that are so prescriptive and they don't make any sense for your context. And what a great point to look for ones with a narrative that follows a real person's story and the lessons you can pull from that being more important than these abstract lessons for how you can absorb information and how you get influenced as a leader. Yeah, exactly.
00:42:07
Speaker
Orianna, it's been so nice to catch up on everything you've been up to, and it's been such an informative and inspiring conversation. So thank you for being so generous and sharing all your insights with leaders listening. How can folks learn more about AOA DX and follow along with everything you're up to moving forward? We have a website, www.aoadx.com. And then we also have a really active LinkedIn page. You can find us at AOA DX. And that really posts industry highlights, our research, our team, with our hiring. So that's a great place.
00:42:36
Speaker
And then the last one is Instagram, where we're also AOA underscore DX. Awesome. Well, we'll be sure to put those links in the show notes, and I'd encourage everyone listening to follow along with your company's journey. It's such important work. Orianna, thank you again. Thank you, Dan. This is such a great conversation.
00:42:52
Speaker
Thanks everyone for listening in. I hope you got a ton out of that episode. And if you did, if you could take a few seconds to share it with a friend or a colleague or leave a quick review on whatever podcast app you're using, even just the stars is great. It goes a long way in helping other people discover the show. And if you liked this episode, check out our previous episode with Dr. Jamie Goff on attachment theory, rewriting your leadership story and retaining talent through values. Here's a clip from it. You know, my area of expertise is really attachment theory.
00:43:20
Speaker
And what attachment theory basically says is that the most fundamental human need is for connection. And before we're even aware of it in our lives, in our early lives, we're answering two really fundamental questions about how we navigate human relationships. The first one is, am I worthy? Am I worthy of love, belonging, dignity, connection? The second fundamental question is are other people trustworthy? And a lot of times,
00:43:49
Speaker
We don't even realize how powerful our responses to those questions are. And unless we're really intentional about looking at how we interact with those questions, we may not even realize ah how much they're driving us. So with my book, I'm digging in, asking leaders to really dig in to how they answer those questions and then how their responses to those questions develop these scripts for them and um and how they're driving their leadership, whether that be in kind of healthy or unhealthy ways.