Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
9 - Field Data and Post-Storm Reconnaissance with Nina and Tori
5 Plays1 year ago
🎙️ 🌊 It’s time for another episode of your favorite homegrown podcast: GOING COASTAL 🎙️ 🌊
In this 9th episode of Going Coastal, hosts Jon Miller and Marissa Torres chat with seasoned field data collectors Nina Stark and Tori Tomiczek to gain insight into the world of post-storm reconnaissance. Nina and Tori share their experience collecting data in the aftermath of Hurricanes Helene and Milton in coastal Florida, how we can learn, advance, and adapt following extreme events, and how you could get involved. 🌍🔧
Don’t miss it—tune in now! 🎧
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6fF8hEesGdmFz7JUwc9W5m
Zencastr (web available, no membership required): https://zencastr.com/Going-Coastal
#CoastalScience #CoastalData #FieldWork #GoingCoastal #Podcast #CoastalEngineering
Recommended
Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome back to the Going Coastal podcast, a podcast for students and new professionals in the field of coastal engineering and science. I'm John Miller, one of your hosts of Going Coastal, and I have my co-host Marissa Torres with me today. Say hi, Marissa. Hello.
00:00:23
Speaker
And of course, we have our third co-host, Deb, who has the the month off. So ah today we're super excited. We're very
Female Engineers on Storm Reconnaissance
00:00:30
Speaker
topical. We actually have an opportunity to talk to two dynamic female engineers that have been participating in some of the post-storm reconnaissance from Hurricanes Helene and Milton and have had experience in past hurricanes and it's a really Interesting and exciting part of some of what we do as coastal scientists and engineers. So today we have Tori Tomsek from the US Naval Academy and Nina Stark from the University of Florida. And Marissa, I did it again. I actually loaded the the episode with gators. Yeah. Here we go again. Yay.
00:01:07
Speaker
i didn't I didn't tell her. i didn't I didn't tell her that everybody except her on this. She's a she's a Rhode Island, a roadie ram. Roadie ram. But I do have a lot of gator friends. So I appreciate the go gators. All right. There you go. You got the gator shop going in the house.
00:01:25
Speaker
Welcome to our Gators. and So first thing we always do is we try to get to know the guests a little bit just by very open-ended question, ask you to introduce yourself, backgrounds, what you do, and and then we kind of take it from there. So Nina, why don't we start with you?
Nina Stark's Background
00:01:40
Speaker
Talk a little bit about yourself.
00:01:41
Speaker
yeah Thanks, John. so Really, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. A little bit of background. so I'm actually originally from Germany. All my education is there. I started out as a physicist and then got more excited about geophysics. and Then from geophysics, my coincidence got into this field of marine geotechnical engineering where I also did my PhD in Germany. And then I ah thought I had to do something related, but maybe something new too. So I did a postdoc in physical oceanography and then joined in 2013, Virginia Tech as a young faculty, as an assistant professor. And one and a half years ago, I moved down here to the University of Florida, where I'm now an associate professor in SE.
00:02:28
Speaker
with a focus on coastal marine geotechnical engineering. So again, my research is kind of between geotechnical engineering and coastal engineering and science. And so I'm specifically interested in soil mechanics and soil processes, sediment transport,
00:02:44
Speaker
in coastal and water fringing and marine environments during extreme events, just with normal forcing conditions. So not only extreme events, and I also work on quite a bit of site characterization for naval applications. Very cool. How about yourself, Tori?
Tori Tomsek's Journey
00:03:04
Speaker
Hey, John and Marissa. Thanks a lot for having me on the podcast. This was really cool. um So I went to my undergrad was at the University of Florida, which was great. And at the University of Florida, I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I graduated. um And the only job offer I had on the table was from Otis elevators. So I decided to go for the graduate school route. Fun fact, I'm a little bit afraid of elevators. But I did my grad work out at the University of Notre Dame. And there I had an opportunity to participate in some post-storm reconnaissance actually following Hurricane Sandy in 2012. So we were out in New Jersey looking at damage structures and
00:03:38
Speaker
That's really where like the light bulb moment happened for me. And I got really interested in understanding you know wave structure interaction, postal resilience. um So from there, I finished my PhD work, did a one year postdoc at Oregon State University, had an opportunity to jump in the lab and do some physical modeling um before starting at the US s Naval Academy in 2016. Very cool, very cool.
Paths into Coastal Engineering
00:04:02
Speaker
I think one of the things that's interesting and talk about this all the time is that we typically find that our guests that get into Coastal, a lot of them find it by accident. It's not that ah unlike I guess many traditional disciplines in engineering or science where people have a very very clear understanding of what they want to do and how to get there. I feel like so many of the guests that we talk to either start down either a physics or geotech or math or
00:04:28
Speaker
civil engineering or even mechanical engineering background and sort of by accident kind of fall into having experienced that kind of, you know, that aha moment that you mentioned, Tori, um that just kind of allows them to to get into the field. So um I don't know, Nina, did you have sort of an aha moment or was it just more of a gradual thing that that kind of led you down the coastal path, down to the dark side, I guess?
00:04:52
Speaker
Yeah, no, I did. so i um So I did the old school German diploma system. So you go straight to a master's or you go home with nothing. So no bachelor's in between. And as part of that program, we had to do an external internship that is research related. And I actually got an internship with the German Navy.
00:05:11
Speaker
And I loved it. And they put me on a boat, a research vessel for a short cruise. And that was my aha moment. I really loved it. I and and enjoyed working with a crew and in the field. And I also learned how much we don't know about coastal and marine environments and in particular seabed sediments ah yet. So I got very excited. And that was really the moment where I'm like, okay, this is what I want to do.
00:05:37
Speaker
Very cool. when you when you were you know when When you were growing up, did you did you grow up near the coast or was it just kind of all through school that you kind of got into it? Well, also on on US s standards, probably you would say yes. I was just one and a half hours away from the coast. What on European standards is very far away. So, but I did grow up so very in the Northwestern side of Germany. So actually we are similarly as the Netherlands really very, very low in elevation. And so fairly early on sea level rise and other topics were a topic that even when school came up
00:06:14
Speaker
Yeah, so I would not say I grew up at the coast, but maybe on US s standards close enough to go for a weekend trip.
Influences on Tori’s Career
00:06:20
Speaker
And sorry, you're a, you're you're a Florida girl. So I'm assuming we have to be coastal.
00:06:25
Speaker
Well, fun fact, I'm originally from Pittsburgh, the city of rivers, not beaches. I was one of like maybe the five ah gators who came from out of state, but definitely I would say, you know, between, you know, the trips we took to the Atlantic or to Florida when I was a kid, sort of always loved going to the beach and, you know, digging in the sand and playing in the waves. And I think Florida really solidified that sort of there's, yeah, you're never too far from the ocean in Florida, which is amazing. so
00:06:55
Speaker
Again, interesting in that, you know again, you can come from it from many different directions. You can be landlocked, you can be from Pittsburgh or you know and you can still end up kind of in this field.
Nina’s Career Path
00:07:09
Speaker
So in terms of your your your career journey, Nina, so you had ah the stop at Virginia Tech and then you ended up at at Florida. Can you just talk a little bit about kind of, I guess, just some of your journey and kind of how you ended up where you're at?
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think one thing that has kind of been a you know like a really leading path in my career is that I'm very passionate about field work in in coastal, sometimes river environments, sometimes deep ocean. But so I'm very, um very passionate about field work in water environments, mostly coastal.
00:07:49
Speaker
So that has been really throughout my whole career, something that has been also shaping my career. Most of my research, I always say that 75% or maybe more of my data collection is in the field. That's really where my research group is doing the innovation. when We do a laboratory testing, but that's really more base soil characterization. And when it comes to modeling, I typically try to find collaborators. and go stay And so I think there it's not that surprising that um I ended up in Florida because that makes it actually really accessible, right? I mean, I still have ah projects all over the world. And I mean, that has been also a topic or like ah like a consistent thing throughout my career that we that we have field sites all over the globe. But the fact to have the ocean that close and also have actually so many interesting different sites so close
00:08:45
Speaker
is certainly really facilitating the research for me. And so that has been a big driver. And as a fun fact, maybe, if I look at latitudes, I actually in my life have consistently moved south. So just always a little bit A little bit warmer and warmer now that you've got to the humidity. A little bit warmer, yes. The humidity of Gainesville, though, might in the summer might might might drive you back to Germany for a bit, maybe visit family during the summers.
00:09:12
Speaker
Yeah, well, I grew up with very misty gray weathers, and I will say I like the humidity with warm temperatures better than with cold food. yeah Yeah, very, very interesting. I definitely can commiserate with your your love of the field aspects of coastal engineering. Personally, I can't see how you couldn't enjoy the field aspects of coastal engineering. you know mike Our co-host there, Marissa, she's she's one of those numerical modelers. so We like to make fun of her a little bit. And of course, Tori, you do a mixture of laboratory stuff as well as as field stuff. So maybe can you talk a little bit ah about kind of the way you kind of mix those two? Yeah,
Field Experience Importance
00:09:55
Speaker
for sure. And so just to kind of echo what Nina said, I think there's really no replacement for being at a site and actually seeing what's happening, whether that's you know coastal processes or whether that's wave structure interaction, I think
00:10:09
Speaker
A lot of times there's no replacement for actually seeing you know a post-storm impact or something, and then you learn a lot that you might not have expected. um That being said, the field is really hard to...
00:10:22
Speaker
parse out what's going on because there's everything there. So there's lots of uncertainty. And that was something that I learned kind of some of my first couple of field deployments, you know, really how you have to just be okay with some of the questions that you might find yourself with more questions than you've answered after you're looking at your data. but For that reason, I find physical modeling still really relevant and really important.
00:10:44
Speaker
It's a great place to go from you know these fields to say, what processes do we think are most important? And then you can really zoom in and kind of get a good look at what's actually happening when you change your wave height only or your wave period or your wave steepness or something like that. um I'll also make an argument for physical models because I think it's a really wonderful way to validate those numerical models that then you can extra extrapolate to kind of fill whatever conditions you want to look at. You know, also, you know,
00:11:12
Speaker
I like being in the field, I like especially when it's in warm places like Florida, but there's also something kind of fun about like going down in the wave flume and building something or trying to figure out why something's not working. So the lab is a cool place as well. So I like the way you described it. I've met a lot of modelers though that suggests that the, instead of the ah the other way around, so they they tend to they tend to think that the,
00:11:39
Speaker
models actually validate the field data instead of the other way around. you know making sure They're making sure the models are telling us what it should be and they're making sure we're collecting the data that matches that. like that's and They really call themselves a numerical modeler if that's their worldview. I don't know. You tell me, modeler.
00:11:59
Speaker
I, you can't trust the model. The model is just an estimation and you need the field data. I'm all on board with supporting the field and laboratory data. We do need physical models. I'm glad that there has been more of a push that people are realizing that it was, it was with the rise of computational power, numerical models were like, yeah, we're boss. And then they're like, okay, funding for physical models goes down. But now we're realizing that Well, in order to even make sure that these models are telling us what they're telling us, we need to have validation data. We need to have idealized like controlled experiments to even confirm, is the model doing what it's supposed to do? Because it's all just an estimation. So I'm on team. We all we need both. um There's a time and a place. yeah We need them together. An unvalidated model is not going to tell you much.
Post-Storm Reconnaissance Insights
00:12:54
Speaker
Actually, this is kind of, so Torrey, you started us down the the path of of really kind of the main focus of, and the reason that we specifically wanted to have the two of you here together was to talk about some of what happens in the immediate aftermath of a storm. So I've had limited experience after ah Superstorm Sandy here. I had the opportunity on the ground in New Jersey to visit sites and structures and go out with some of the FEMA ah damage assessment teams.
00:13:21
Speaker
um And I think personally, I found that to be one of the most amazing, informative, you know professionally rewarding experiences that I've had an opportunity to do. Nina, I've i've seen a lot of on your your Instagram accounts and whatnot about all the great work that you've been doing in Florida after ah hurricanes Helene and Milton.
00:13:46
Speaker
ah Can you just kind of just describe like what do you do? Like how do you get involved in stuff like that and just kind of, you know, what you're trying to understand based on the data you're collecting? I got actually involved in 2014 being or volunteering for the Geotechnical Extreme Event Reconnaissance Association.
00:14:06
Speaker
for ah being on a team that went to New Zealand after their Christchurch floods that actually followed a couple of years after or very, you know, two years after the earthquakes there. And that's how I got the first time involved with the Geotechnical Extreme Event Reconnaissance Association for listeners who are not familiar with GEAR. So GEAR is one of the Extreme Event Reconnaissance Associations that are funded and under the National Science Foundation.
00:14:33
Speaker
years as far as I know actually the oldest founded I think in the 90s focused on earthquakes and has actually in the earthquake engineering world made a really big big contribution on collecting data that became very famous case studies that really advanced our understanding of earthquake engineering. And so I got involved with GEER since one of the GEER steering company team members was actually a collaborator and colleague at Virginia Tech. And I was really um impressed and excited about the work that they were doing. And then in 2017, Harvey came along and I was approached by
00:15:13
Speaker
by gear if I would be interested in co-leading a team that would respond to Hurricane Harvey in Texas. And I pointed out that typically the approach at that time was to, in in particular, looking at geotechnical aspects, often related to dams and levees to go a little bit later. So, but I pointed out that in particular for the hurricanes, it would be really informative to actually get a team on the ground really, really early to look at sediment transport, like big breaches that occurred, soil failure, scour, before, you know, following sediment transport fills in the holes or repair work and reshuffling is actually
00:15:58
Speaker
practically by creating a bias in the data. And so then we had the opportunity to put a team together that flew very early after Hurricane Harvey's landfall into Texas. And we also worked with Texas A and&M and UT as local universities. And we followed Hurricane Harvey literally in its bag and collected data um ah very early on. And so then we did a similar effort after Hurricane Irma. And so that was one thing that that really interested me further this seeing these early damages and impacts, right? In particular on, again, geotechnical mechanisms and solar mechanics. And then I got, obviously, we my research also took advantage of some of the data we collected. We had follow-up studies in in Texas related to that.
00:16:49
Speaker
Then I was part of the founding members of the nearshore extreme event reconnaissance association is also under and NSF and neary with a more interdisciplinary goal of bringing in particular people from different disciplines together, but focusing on the nearshore zone. And so in in that regard, um, I've been involved in kind of planning and the steering committee of near.
00:17:15
Speaker
But now when then Hurricane Helene came along and, you know, I'm kind of close to the location and it looked also as if is if Helene would take practically aim at an area that I had worked on this year before in the totally unrelated project, actually an O&R project. We did bathymetry and cedar key in the area. And that really sparked this idea of, okay, and we have actually data from the summer from this area and we are close by, this would be,
00:17:44
Speaker
a huge opportunity to do something that we have been talking about for a while in a bigger effort of not only collecting post-storm reconnaissance data, but actually trying to get sensors out and do measurements right before the storm so that we also have the pre-storm data and maybe sensors throughout the storm. And so NEAR and GEAR supported this, NSF also since this turned out a really big effort actually also supported this further through a rapid grant And we brought in collaborators from the Neary Rapid facility who came with equipment and helped us out. We had collaborators locally as well as all over the country. And we collected one day before landfall quite a bit of data in these areas and deployed 21 wave gauges throughout Cedar Key, Horseshoe Beach area.
00:18:33
Speaker
and then practically retreated um and then came back after the storm and did again with I think more than 32 team members from different institutions and agencies from the US s um a big post reconnaissance effort.
00:18:50
Speaker
So that is kind of the story how I ended up in in this field and got connected. And then it came to this the big deployment in response to Helene. And then with Milton coming along, we continued the effort and actually we're still continuing the effort. We are scheduled to go in the field on Monday again to cover a few other gaps. So the big the big the big question is how many of the wave gauges did you get back?
00:19:13
Speaker
All of them, all of them. i had only one One single one that failed. I don't know how that happened. I have no idea how that happened. We even have situations where our wave gauge was recovered and in good shape and the building behind it was completely gone.
00:19:29
Speaker
I, you know, there's there's different markers of success in, in, in field studies. And number one is how many of your instruments do you get back? Number two is how many of them do you get data off? And number three is how much of it is good data, right? And then after that, then you can settle all the science questions. It's just, you know, but start at the very beginning. so So I have to give a lot of credit to our field team there too. I mean, they did a pretty amazing effort and also choosing locations for these gauges.
00:19:58
Speaker
yeah Yeah, definitely. So Tori, how about share some of your experience, I guess. Okay, for sure.
Impact of Field Research
00:20:04
Speaker
And John, I think the first thing I wanna do is go back to what you said about Hurricane Sandy being really impactful kind of on your professional experiences, because that was really sort of what I saw too, getting into the field. And I think the thing that I remember the most is we were there over like a rainy and cold Thanksgiving week. um And like, there were all these people who were like,
00:20:26
Speaker
picking up debris and looking at their houses and be like, yep, we'll be back. And like it was just really inspiring to sort of talk to the residents and see the persistence and resilience of you know these people. And it also sort of made me really want to find ways that we can design houses and design coastal protection systems so that we can mitigate that type of damages in the future. So really, it I think it's just totally an impactful moment, um kind of these field experiences.
00:20:55
Speaker
After Hurricane Sandy, so some of the work I did for my PhD was really looking at developing fragility functions, so basically ways that you can understand the relationship between your hazard, so for a hurricane that might be something like the storm surge, your inundation wave heights above ground, as well as the wave heights that are riding on top of that storm surge. So relating that to the likelihood that a structure is going to fall down basically.
00:21:19
Speaker
We did some work um in after Hurricane Ike in Texas. I didn't participate in the field reconnaissance then, but kind of looked at kind of these models. ah One of the big challenges was that there's no good overland flow information or and real-time wave information. so um Nina, I think that's one reason why the dataset that you collected for Hurricane Helene and Hurricane milty is Milton is just so incredibly exciting because we finally have an opportunity to see what's happening from the hydrodynamic perspective during the storm and relate that to you know what actually happened in the nearshore infrastructure. um So that, yeah, I think that's really exciting. ah Kind of in between those bookends, um some other work that I've done, we did some reconnaissance after Hurricane Irma in the Florida Keys and
00:22:08
Speaker
That was a really interesting study as well. And again, kind of a lesson that, you know, if I hadn't gone to Florida to see the damages, I don't think I would have learned this. And so one thing that we saw was that a lot of structures that had mangroves as their shorelines experienced less damage than maybe neighboring structures that had a different type of shore protection system. And so that was something that kind of started me down another passion of mine, which is nature-based solutions and, um, how we can understand the performance of you know natural infrastructure in comparison to something conventional that you might think about for shoreline protection like a seawall or a revetment.
Lessons from Storm Events
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah, Torrey, like you said, the the experience in New Jersey after Sandy was was amazing. I think one of the things that um I'll remember, because it was the same weekend that we were there, or same type timeframe that we were there, and just seeing the way that people were helping out each other, and you know the people that were donating food, the people that were cooking food for all the, you know not first responders, but the the people that were there in the immediate aftermath was amazing. And a thing that I'll never forget was standing in like the footprint of what used to be a house and looking at the Christmas decorations that were scattered all about and seeing like literally a stocking, like a kid stocking and standing there in this footprint realizing that this person is never going to have another Christmas in this house, right?
00:23:29
Speaker
and just kind of being in awe of the power of nature because you know here in New Jersey, we don't get hit with the storms as nearly as frequently as the Texas coast or the Florida coast. so For us, this was kind of that eye-opening experience that yes, you know these extreme events do touch us even here in New Jersey as well. so it's just yeah it's a it's it's It's an amazing experience and like you said you hit on it Tori that the ability to kind of be in the field there's no substitute for that because you pick up on things details that you know whether it's from photographs or videos or
00:24:08
Speaker
you know even just in modeling experiments and things you just don't really kind of see and so being able to appreciate the impact of the mangroves right like that's something that you kind of have to be there to see I think I found it interesting to kind of apply those civil engineering concepts I also have a civil engineering undergrad I was I didn't go the geotech route I went the structural engineering route but that's that's my background and so the ability to kind of be out in the field and to visualize and think about the the load path and kind of why structures had failed, doesn't there's no experience. There's no experience that matches that that that immediate post-storm field experience. So obviously I have an image which is burnt in my mind, which is the the Christmas stocking in the in the middle of that. Is there is there something that
00:24:56
Speaker
You know, maybe you've seen Nina and some of your experiences that is just kind of yeah call it amazing. Something that you just, you've never seen before. You don't know that you'll ever see it again. Just something that really sticks out is like, wow, nature is awesome. Uh, yeah, I think there's, there's many. So let me, let me so do one really negative and one, one really positive. So, so one really positive.
00:25:22
Speaker
Like we've seen that in multiple sites now actually. And that goes back to what Tori said about like enthusiasm for a nature-based solutions is that if you're looking at a lot of, you know, ecosystems, oyster reefs, tidal flats, right? Mangroves. I mean, they get hit with these major forces and the next day they still look really good, right? They still look really good. I mean,
00:25:52
Speaker
And even if they maybe have seen some impacts, right there seems to be already a system in place to be resilient. right And I think that's something that I'm very excited about and that I've seen and in multiple cases. And I think we have to learn from more and see how we can use these systems to also protect our communities, but but also maybe learn how they actually work. right Maybe there's already the solutions are already out there and we just have to see them. right So that that is something that really amazes me about that. And I also want to maybe turn it in the other direction that um I've also seen really things that gave me nightmares and and they were really shocking and probably won
00:26:41
Speaker
that is most shocking still in my mind, is actually not related to a coastal impact, but also a gear mission in response to the major river flood events that occurred in in northwestern Europe in 2021, where I wanted to look at a scour hole and there were some other people still there. And there were I was asking them if they were checking on the scour hole depth. And I mentioned that we would utilize like acoustic devices to actually measure that out. And then they asked me if the acoustic advice is devices could also see if there's bodies jammed under those foundations. And that was something that I had never thought about and that really gave me a pause and some you know crawling up, crawling in my skin. But that was a real wake up call for me also.
00:27:36
Speaker
in which situations who actually are moving, right? And how big these impacts actually are. And so I think if you are involved in these extreme event responses, in particular, these very rapid ones, I think you see both, right? You see, you find these things that are important and that you're excited about and that we can learn from and they're working really well, but then you also have these other experiences, right? Or where you're talking to homeowners who have just lost everything, right? Everything. And they're looking at you at like asking for solutions, asking for what will the future be. So really hard there sometimes. Yeah, I just want to echo you Nina. I think that's a really important point that it's really hard to see some of the impacts of these storms. And I think another hard thing is you know sometimes we're out in the field and
00:28:32
Speaker
a homeowner might be saying, like oh, you know are you here to help? And you know in this moment, no. like We can't do anything immediately. And so the hope is that you know with the data that we're collecting and with the lessons that we're learning, you know we can inform maybe design codes or inform how things work so that we can help. But it's a much longer time scale than what people need at the moment.
00:28:57
Speaker
Well, I think yeah that that it definitely points to the importance right of kind of being there you know in in what we're doing. right I think that's the that's the thing. It's unfortunate that these you know events occur, but if we don't learn from them and we don't improve the situation, right then we've failed. right like that's That's the thing. So it's really important that we go. I think it's also interesting you know that you you both kind of brought up you know the sort of resilience of nature and the taking lessons and cues from nature. So the concept of nature-based systems or natural nature-based features or living shorelines or or whatever you wanna call it. And certainly that's become something that's been more talked about in the in the past decade or so. um So Tori, maybe you just wanna expand a little bit about some of the work that you've done in that realm.
00:29:49
Speaker
So this is another moment where I think we saw something in the field, you know, the performance of mangroves and protecting structures after Hurricane Irma and said, it's too complicated here.
Mangroves and Nature-Based Solutions
00:29:59
Speaker
So let's see if we can simplify things and go into the lab. And so based on our observations um after the storm, we designed several laboratory experiments.
00:30:09
Speaker
ah that have actually since kind of grown, but trying to understand how do mangroves attenuate waves. And so basically we took this very complicated structure of a mangrove um for any listeners who haven't seen a mangrove before or who don't live in Florida.
00:30:23
Speaker
the mangroves that we're looking at they're called the red mangrove and they're pretty interesting because they have a bunch of roots that come out of their trunk and go into the ground kind of like spiders so we call them spider roots but the cool thing is it ah or prop roots um the cool thing about them though is they're this big chunk of biomass that essentially blocks flow and as waves go through them they're going to lose energy And so we designed some models looking at just the manner of trunk and proper root system to see if we could quantify you know wave height attenuation. um And if we can get wave height attenuation, then maybe we can also see what type of force reduction you might expect and see if you know existing analytical cool equations or existing design equations could be applied so that we could start to incorporate these nature-based solutions.
00:31:09
Speaker
in a similar way that we do, you know, other um coastal protection systems. um So we've done a couple experiments, um you know, at Oregon State University has some amazing laboratory facilities. We've done some smaller scale tests here at the US Naval Academy um and then some other tests at the US s Army Corps of Engineers in Vicksburg. So amazing facilities there too.
00:31:30
Speaker
See, this is this is this is where I failed as a as a researcher in that we've seen we do some of the same studies, but we're looking at oyster reefs and we're not talking about like more ah tropical waters. We're talking like, you know, I have the waters of New Jersey and I have oyster reefs and we're studying the same thing, but mangroves seem so cool to me. that's ah you know Especially the the the locations where you've done your field studies.
00:31:58
Speaker
You know, I think they, um takeque with me next time please oh i would I would gladly, that's an invitation. You have, it's on, it's, so it's it's on, uh, on audio right now, right? So it's on the podcast. So therefore I'm going to hold Tori to it. One thing, John, you might have to kayak. So sorry. Kayak all the way from New Jersey or just kayak when I get down there. is when you When you get down there. Yeah. It's really hard work though. and I'm all, I'm all, I'm all about it. Um, kayaking is fun. Do I have to bring my own?
00:32:29
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's it's all it's all it's all relative to kayaking in Rhode Island versus kayaak kayaking in New Jersey versus kayaking in Florida, like all different.
Career Advice for Students
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah. yeah So one of the things that we definitely want to make sure that we leave enough time to to talk about is the advice that you might have for students and new professionals. So this is a podcast that is focused on trying to get people interested in coastal topics to help them advance their careers in this field. um
00:33:04
Speaker
Again, you've both been very successful in your career path. They're different, but you're you're you're both making like amazing strides. A question would be for students that were young professionals that want to kind of follow in a career path that's similar. Nina, is there any advice that you would you would give them? Yeah, I think there's three points that I'd like to make. so so One is,
00:33:33
Speaker
follow a path that you're passionate about because I think then the chance that you will actually get successful is pretty high because I mean like everyone I think you do always a better job if you like what you do right so I think that is important and I think that sometimes gets actually lost in career planning and advising, you know, so also think about what you're passionate about. So the second point I think that I would like to make is that there's a lot of space in the gaps. I know that sounds really abstract, but what I mean with them is that
00:34:07
Speaker
In particular, we are talking a lot about being interdisciplinary and getting out of our silos, but that's actually much harder than than it seems. And I think in particular for young people who who obviously have to start somewhere and typically that's in traditional programs and that's important because you need a base, right? But to see these interdisciplinary paths, these opportunities in the gaps, right? To see these, I think that takes a little time to see that.
00:34:36
Speaker
And maybe also creativity. So I think as a, as another point of advice is like, look into who's doing things in different fields. Don't feel you're on one track and you can never change. I changed multiple times and actually all these different places that I've been are now contributing.
00:34:58
Speaker
where I really have built up my career. And so they all contributed. There was never one that turned out useless because I learned something every way and now I'm kind of in a combined realm, right? And I think there's there's a lot of need for that. And I think I personally believe that the two solutions to a lot of our today's problems in coastal science and engineering are probably being found in this in between spaces, in these interdisciplinary spaces. So I think that is ah the second point. And then I think the third one is be brave and be creative, right? So I think, you know, sometimes it takes a really out of the box idea to to make a change and and don't be afraid of that. You know, sometimes you have to fail a couple of times to get it right.
00:35:52
Speaker
And I think if you go through that, you will suddenly find that, you know, it's not a bad thing, right? As long as you get up again and keep going and you learn something and move on. So these are my three points of advice. Wow. That's it. there's that's that's That's great advice. And I think you, Nita, you hit on a lot of the things that we typically talk about. I, you know, all the time emphasize the whole passion thing. i typically relay a story that early in in my career, I was pushed to do other things other than coastal engineering because there wasn't a robust career path in coastal engineering. And I said, but I want to do coastal engineering. That's where my passion is. And you know fortunately against
00:36:36
Speaker
many people's advice. I just kind of ignored the the people that tried to push me off path and I ended up doing something that I'm super passionate about, you know, making a career of it. And there are many careers in coastal engineering, so it's not even true that there's not a career path in coastal. But I think it's really important because, ah you know, if you do end up doing something because you make a lot of money or because Somebody says it might be easier, right? It's just not as rewarding. And I think at the end of the day, particularly, you know, not that, you know, not that, not that I'm old, but the older I get, the more happy I am with that decision because I see so many people that, you know, do things and they might be financially better off, but they just, they're just, they go to work every day and they don't enjoy it. And you know, I'm here.
00:37:24
Speaker
20 years into my career as a professor and I enjoy every day and I enjoy the people I work with the things I get to study. So the passion part is is 100% you know something that that I talk about all the time. So Tori what about what about you? What do you what do you say?
00:37:42
Speaker
what Nina said. ah eating I have some too, but um I think some of them are probably going to be echoing Nina because Nina, I think those points are really amazing. So I guess one thing, you know, also kind of to give maybe three small pieces of advice. I think the first one that I would tell, you know, students and graduate students is that your question is probably a good one. So please ask it if whether that's in class or whether that's about an opportunity.
00:38:10
Speaker
It just gets the discussion going and you might think it's obvious and that you should know it or that someone so should know it. But if you're having that question, then probably someone else does too. And it's probably going to help maybe spark, you know, something new that somebody learned something. So please ask your questions on a related topic. I think my second piece of advice is not to be afraid to ask for help from your mentors or to ask them for something that would help you along your career path. So whether that's an opportunity for a conference or whether that's advice on graduate school or a letter of recommendation. It was always really scary for me to ask people to write me a letter of recommendation. um And now that I'm old and people ask me for letters of recommendation, I actually find myself being really like kind of hat like feeling Thank you for your thinking that I could write a letter for you. So please don't be afraid to ask you know your mentors for advice or for help. or um
00:39:08
Speaker
something like that. um And then my last one, I am actually going to Echo Nina because I think it's so important. Please don't be afraid to fail. I can list off probably for the next hour if we have time, just kidding. um All of the instruments that I've broken or lost or deployed in such a way that made it easy for somebody to think it was a crab pot so they took it home. um All the times that I've had a paper that was not the right fit for the journal or we needed to do something to make it you know better so that it could be published.
00:39:38
Speaker
all the great ideas I've had that I've submitted as a grant and short would be published and it was like a not this time. um It doesn't mean no. It just means that you can learn something, dust it off, make it better, and um you know you can do it. So thats ah those are my three pieces of advice.
00:39:58
Speaker
Those are so excellent. And I will harp on the, don't be afraid to like ask your questions. And if you have the question, somebody else might too. I didn't learn that until maybe, I don't know, five years into my career, yeah like yesterday, just like having the courage to just be like, well, I have this question. We're all here to learn, more or less. ah And people like talking about the things that they're passionate about. So asking people questions about a topic that you don't know anything or or you're curious about and that person knows a lot about it or even if it's what you think is a dumb question. I just remember being in ah in a meeting room. I was new to this to the engineering with nature, natural and nature-based features. i didn't They were all talking about oyster reefs and oyster rakes and I was like,
00:40:51
Speaker
I don't know what an oyster rake is. So I just was like in a room full of a whole bunch of people that I had just met. I'm like, I'm new to this field. What is an oyster rake? And they it's fine. It turns out it's totally fine. So you're going to survive it and it will be fine. No one's going to think you're stupid for wanting to learn something that you didn't know.
00:41:12
Speaker
the advice about not being afraid to fail I think is ah is also great advice. In my other passion outside of coastal engineering, um I coach basketball and like there's a ah famous clip that you can find that Kobe Bryant's talking about failure. And it's I absolutely love it because the gist of it is the only way you fail is if you don't succeed and you don't learn from it, right? Then that's the true failure is not taking that opportunity to learn. And I love it and I share it with my players. And it's, you know, something that I try to apply, not just in my passion for basketball, but also in in in coastal engineering. I think it's,
00:41:54
Speaker
It's how we move forward. That's how we advance, right? So. Yeah. My mentor always says that fail stands for a first attempt in learning. Nice. There you go. That's great. That's awesome.
Podcast Conclusion
00:42:09
Speaker
We would love to have your social media links so that way folks can go check out some of your recon work um and and see some of those images of the places that you've been and and the work that you guys have been doing. um If you're able to share those, you can say them out loud and we can also include them in the description. So I don't have much social media presence, um but I do have a Google Scholar.
00:42:33
Speaker
And I can share um our NAOE Instagram, the Naval Architecture and Ocean Engineering Department has an Instagram, which sometimes I send things through our department. So I can send the handle for that once I look up what it is. Sure. And I'm on on X now.
00:42:53
Speaker
and not Twitter anymore, X. So and that's ah under Nina Stark 18. And then I'm also on LinkedIn, just Google, or not Googling, like LinkedIn searching my name should lead you there. And we'd like to thank our guests for their time today. And it was a wonderful conversation. Thank you both for being here. Thanks for having me. Thank you both.
00:43:22
Speaker
So we would like to thank, ah going coastal, we'd like to thank New Jersey Sea Grant for supporting this podcast and our efforts to connect with students and new professionals in the coastal field. ah We would like to invite people that are interested in finding more about New Jersey Sea Grant to visit their website at www.NewJerseySeaGrant.org backslash education.
00:43:44
Speaker
And if you're enjoying this podcast and you're interested in supporting Going Coastal as a sponsor, ah you can always contact us at our Going Coastal email address, which is podcastgoingcoastalatgmail.com.