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A Newly Unearthed George Washington Letter, with Nathan Raab
40 Plays2 years ago
Benjamin Miller is joined by Nathan Raab, principal at the Raab Collection, a purveyor of historic documents, manuscripts, and autographs that range from medieval codices to notes, signatures, and letters by the likes of Napoleon and Amelia Earhart. The firm’s inventory includes several items of especially national significance, such as the never-before-seen missive by George Washington—written just before the Continental Army’s encampment at Valley Forge for the winter of 1777–1778—that is the subject of this episode.
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Transcript
Introduction to Curious Objects Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
00:00:13
Speaker
I'm Ben Miller.
00:00:14
Speaker
You probably already know that for me, antique objects are so compelling in part because of the windows they open into past lives, the stories they can tell us about how people lived, what they valued, what they found beautiful or useful.
Meet Nathan Rabb: The Document Expert
00:00:28
Speaker
And my guest today is a dealer in something that perhaps more than any other category of antiques makes those connections intimate and powerful.
00:00:36
Speaker
Nathan Rabb specializes in historic documents, manuscripts, and autographs from medieval codexes to notes and letters and signatures from people like Napoleon, Abraham Lincoln, or Amelia Earhart.
George Washington's Lost Letter Discovery
00:00:51
Speaker
And today I'm thrilled, in partnership with the Rab collection, to bring you a story about a brand new discovery, a never-before-seen letter by, I think it's fair to say, one of the greatest celebrities of all history, George Washington.
00:01:05
Speaker
It's a letter written at one of the darkest hours of the war, just before the famous encampment at Valley Forge, when hope was in short supply and defeat was looming around every corner.
00:01:16
Speaker
Yet in this letter, we see Washington, the consummate leader, finding optimism, resolve and purpose.
Rapid-Fire Q&A with Nathan Rabb
00:01:24
Speaker
And here to tell us about it is Nathan Rapp.
00:01:30
Speaker
Thanks for joining me.
00:01:31
Speaker
Thanks for having me.
00:01:32
Speaker
Let's start with a round of rapid questions.
00:01:34
Speaker
Are you game?
00:01:35
Speaker
Yep, shoot.
00:01:37
Speaker
All right, what's the oldest object that you personally own?
00:01:40
Speaker
We have a manuscript from the 900s, from medieval Europe, from France.
00:01:48
Speaker
It's a beautiful multicolored manuscript from a religious document.
00:01:53
Speaker
So 10th century.
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah, over a thousand years.
00:01:56
Speaker
That's pretty old.
00:01:57
Speaker
All right, there's an asteroid headed for Earth, and for some reason they've stuck you on the escape pod.
00:02:03
Speaker
What one document are you bringing with you?
00:02:06
Speaker
Well, I'm assuming that
00:02:08
Speaker
things are not going great, if there's an asteroid and there's an escape pod.
00:02:11
Speaker
So I'm going to bring something that might be useful for me.
00:02:15
Speaker
The vellum documents, the large appointments that presidents signed are big.
00:02:21
Speaker
They're nearly indestructible.
00:02:22
Speaker
The vellum's strong.
00:02:23
Speaker
You could use those for blankets.
00:02:25
Speaker
Maybe keep you, I don't know where I'm going on this escape pod, but if it rains, that could keep me dry.
00:02:31
Speaker
I love that.
00:02:32
Speaker
Yeah, just pitch a tent.
00:02:34
Speaker
The most expensive tent ever made.
Humor and Favorite Document Movies
00:02:37
Speaker
What's the most valuable piece that you've ever touched?
00:02:41
Speaker
We carried and sold a document signed by Abraham Lincoln, a copy of the Emancipation Proclamation.
00:02:47
Speaker
These were given out, signed by him and given out at sanitary fairs to benefit the sick and wounded soldiers.
00:02:53
Speaker
And that was well into seven figures.
00:02:56
Speaker
You're now banned from your current field for reasons that we won't speculate about here.
00:03:01
Speaker
But you have to pick a new specialty.
00:03:02
Speaker
What's it going to be?
00:03:04
Speaker
By the way, that sounds like a great plot for a book.
00:03:07
Speaker
Somehow I'm banned, but getting into why I'm banned might be interesting.
00:03:12
Speaker
Well, whatever happened, I'm sure I deserved it.
00:03:15
Speaker
I think I'd want to be a park ranger.
00:03:16
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:18
Speaker
Totally out of left field, but I like that.
00:03:20
Speaker
What movie has the most interesting depiction of historic letters and documents and so on?
00:03:26
Speaker
Well, it depends on how you define interesting.
00:03:29
Speaker
I'm sure there are movies that have more sophisticated treatments than this.
00:03:34
Speaker
But I'm partial to the Disney-ification of National Treasure, the Nicolas Cage movies, where he's kind of running
Document Handling and Misconceptions
00:03:42
Speaker
around looking for objects and documents.
00:03:44
Speaker
And they treat with, I mean, it's a major movie, big budget movie that deals with historical documents, which one doesn't see very often.
00:03:51
Speaker
What's your favorite museum to visit?
00:03:54
Speaker
I love the Air and Space Museum, mostly for sentimental reasons.
00:03:57
Speaker
I used to go there as a kid, ate the astronaut ice cream.
00:04:00
Speaker
Nice.
00:04:01
Speaker
It's just, it's impressive to see such large craft inside a building.
00:04:08
Speaker
So I'd say Air and Space Museum.
00:04:10
Speaker
What's one misconception that people have about your field that you'd like to correct?
00:04:15
Speaker
Don't wear white gloves when you're dealing with documents.
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah, I love that one.
00:04:20
Speaker
Okay, what's the first historic document that you became obsessed with?
00:04:28
Speaker
Many years ago, gosh, in my 20s, we bought a letter of Theodore Roosevelt home to his son.
00:04:33
Speaker
He was in Yellowstone.
00:04:35
Speaker
And he wrote home to his son and it was just like the letter of father would write home to a young, young child with a drawing of a pack animal.
00:04:42
Speaker
And I'm a father, it kind of brought a real personal side of him at an interesting moment.
00:04:47
Speaker
So I loved that.
00:04:49
Speaker
Touching.
Recommended Reads for Enthusiasts
00:04:51
Speaker
Now, you've written a book called The Hunt for History, which is a fantastic collection of storytelling around the works that you've handled, your own history in the field.
00:05:00
Speaker
Aside from that, what's one book that an amateur should read to get an understanding of the field that you work in?
00:05:08
Speaker
When I first joined the business, my dad gave me a few books written by Charles Hamilton,
00:05:16
Speaker
And I don't remember the name of him, but he wrote two or three that I think would be worthy of intro treatment.
00:05:22
Speaker
I mean, they're meant for a larger audience, so I'd recommend Charles Hamilton as author.
Thrill of Discovering Historic Documents
00:05:27
Speaker
What was your last international trip?
00:05:29
Speaker
Well, I went to London this summer.
00:05:31
Speaker
How was that?
00:05:32
Speaker
Very nice.
00:05:33
Speaker
I love London.
00:05:35
Speaker
I have family there, friends.
00:05:37
Speaker
What's the coolest document discovery that you've made?
00:05:40
Speaker
And I realize there's a lot of competition for that.
00:05:42
Speaker
Well...
00:05:45
Speaker
Yeah, that in a sense is the hardest question to answer because it's like, you know, every day is the potential for new discovery and they do so often come up.
00:05:58
Speaker
You know, finding Abraham, the telegram that went out announcing the death of Abraham Lincoln,
00:06:08
Speaker
is a pretty chilling and remarkable discovery.
00:06:11
Speaker
So I'd say that.
00:06:12
Speaker
But if you ask me tomorrow, I might have a different answer.
00:06:15
Speaker
That's fair.
00:06:17
Speaker
What's a mistake that you regret and perhaps learn from?
00:06:21
Speaker
Mistake?
00:06:21
Speaker
How dare you?
00:06:23
Speaker
I've never made a mistake.
00:06:25
Speaker
All right.
00:06:25
Speaker
I retract the question.
00:06:27
Speaker
Mistake.
00:06:28
Speaker
I'm fortunate in that my dad and I worked together on some of these things, which has spared us.
00:06:35
Speaker
We kind of act as a check on the other.
00:06:38
Speaker
You know, the sort of rookie mistake that one makes is to buy something because you love it, not realizing that you may be the only one who loves it.
00:06:47
Speaker
So buying something and thinking it's worth a lot more money than in fact it is because I have a personal interest in it is something I've done a handful of times.
00:06:56
Speaker
Luckily, I get to hang out with those documents for longer than the others because they don't sell as fast.
00:07:02
Speaker
I'm all too familiar with that problem in the antique silver trade.
00:07:06
Speaker
What was the last piece that you saw that gave you shivers?
00:07:11
Speaker
The last piece I saw, so now I'm dealing with a temporal frame.
00:07:16
Speaker
Well, yesterday I saw for the first time in many years, a letter of Benjamin Franklin from July 1776.
00:07:23
Speaker
Franklin signed the declaration.
00:07:25
Speaker
His letters from that stretch are very, his letters in general are not common, but his letters from that stretch are very uncommon.
00:07:31
Speaker
Just a beautiful, bold signature with the dateline, Philadelphia, July 1776.
00:07:36
Speaker
That's yesterday.
00:07:40
Speaker
All right.
00:07:40
Speaker
I feel like I want to ask you this again tomorrow.
Defining Great Documents
00:07:43
Speaker
But for now, are you ready to talk about George Washington?
00:07:46
Speaker
I'm always ready to talk about George Washington.
00:07:48
Speaker
Fantastic.
00:07:49
Speaker
So I just want to start with some brass tacks.
00:07:52
Speaker
What is it that makes the difference between a good historic document and a great one?
00:07:57
Speaker
The difference between a good historical document and a great one, for me, boils down to its place in history.
00:08:07
Speaker
So...
00:08:09
Speaker
its place in history and what it says about the author, the writer of the letter in this case, we'll say.
00:08:18
Speaker
A good historical document may say something interesting about the author and may, you know, relate to a significant event.
00:08:28
Speaker
A great historical document will be revelatory about that person, show you really what's behind the curtain, what that person was thinking, feeling in a moment of great import.
00:08:40
Speaker
And the document itself may directly relate to this important moment in history in a way that the document is part of that moment in history.
Washington's Letter: Rarity and Significance
00:08:50
Speaker
So, you know, there certainly is a sliding scale between good and great.
00:08:56
Speaker
And there are shades of gray in there.
00:08:58
Speaker
And for some people, the answer could be different.
00:09:01
Speaker
But for me, it's historical importance.
00:09:05
Speaker
And that window into the private lives and feeling something that you wouldn't get from the Wikipedia article.
00:09:13
Speaker
Right.
00:09:14
Speaker
You know, it's...
00:09:16
Speaker
Or something that you might get from a Wikipedia article, which is central to that person's legacy.
00:09:22
Speaker
So, you know, we sold a letter of Einstein earlier this year where he's discussing religion.
00:09:31
Speaker
Now, people really care about Einstein's perception of religion.
00:09:34
Speaker
He's central to this great debate of the 20th century, which I think continues about whether scientists can believe in creationism.
00:09:43
Speaker
and how closely a scientist like Einstein would adhere to the Bible, or in his case, the Torah.
00:09:50
Speaker
And I think the connection with Einstein is because he's a prominent Jew who had to flee Germany once Hitler took power.
00:09:59
Speaker
And so people care about his answer to that.
00:10:01
Speaker
And we had a letter.
00:10:03
Speaker
This was written.
00:10:04
Speaker
We bought this from the family of the guy who received it, in which Einstein flat out says, a scientist...
00:10:13
Speaker
properly trained, simply cannot believe in the Bible's relation of the beginning of the world.
00:10:20
Speaker
That's remarkable.
00:10:21
Speaker
And here you have, he's mixing his scientific perspective with his religious perspective in a letter, which was just incredibly exciting to find.
00:10:28
Speaker
It's written to a fellow Jew.
00:10:32
Speaker
That's a great letter.
00:10:34
Speaker
So let's talk about the Washington letter, the rarity of it.
00:10:38
Speaker
How often do Washington letters come on the market in general?
00:10:42
Speaker
So I would say, you know, the word rare is a relative term.
00:10:48
Speaker
Washington, all these things are rare.
00:10:52
Speaker
Are they super rare?
00:10:53
Speaker
You know, you'll have multiple opportunities in a given year to buy a letter of George Washington.
00:10:58
Speaker
I think we may have nine or 10 of them right now.
00:11:01
Speaker
I just bought one yesterday.
00:11:05
Speaker
That doesn't mean they're common.
00:11:06
Speaker
They're still rare by any other measure.
00:11:11
Speaker
But you do see them.
00:11:13
Speaker
I think what people look for with Washington, again, is that transition from a nice letter to something that's truly important.
00:11:22
Speaker
And when you get to these letters that are truly important, you may see a handful of these things surface in a given year.
00:11:33
Speaker
So this particular one, our subject today, it's a letter that's never been on the market before.
00:11:39
Speaker
Why does that matter?
00:11:42
Speaker
Well, you know, as a, it's always nice to find new stuff.
00:11:49
Speaker
So the universe of Washington letters that one can buy and sell, because there's a universe of Washington letters that you can't buy and sell.
00:11:56
Speaker
There's a lot of them in major institutions, university libraries.
00:12:01
Speaker
Those are not part of the market.
00:12:04
Speaker
They won't leave their depository.
00:12:09
Speaker
But anytime that you could find a letter that's never come up first, first of all, it's exciting.
00:12:14
Speaker
And it shows that these things are still hiding out there.
00:12:17
Speaker
The universe of new discoveries is seemingly ever expanding.
00:12:24
Speaker
Every time you think that you've reached the end of it, there's more there.
00:12:30
Speaker
But finding a Washington letter where there's no sale record,
00:12:36
Speaker
And the thing has never been sold before.
00:12:38
Speaker
And it's still, it's been kept by the descendants of the recipient or, you know, people that, that may have gotten it from that family.
00:12:48
Speaker
You're bringing a new Washington letter into the world of, of collecting.
00:12:53
Speaker
And that's always exciting.
00:12:55
Speaker
So what, what might you compare this letter to in terms of what's been on the market over the last decade or two?
00:13:02
Speaker
Well, this letter is written during the Revolutionary War, and there, of course, have been a number of great letters written during the war, some of which have gone for a large amount of money, and there are also great letters that, I mean, he wrote a fair number of letters during the war.
00:13:19
Speaker
He had aides to help him with the drafting and writing of some of these letters, and he was responsible for communicating with people all over the eastern seaboard
00:13:32
Speaker
Every day.
00:13:33
Speaker
In terms of comparing the letter to other letters, what one doesn't see and what was truly exciting is this connection.
00:13:45
Speaker
Is Washington in a moment of triumph?
00:13:49
Speaker
Things had not been going great and he was in for a long slog coming up in the winter encampment at Valley Forge.
00:13:58
Speaker
But this is a moment of triumph.
00:14:02
Speaker
This is the surrender of Burgoyne's army, Saratoga.
00:14:07
Speaker
And he's rejoicing in a victory they desperately needed.
00:14:10
Speaker
And you see that coming through in the letter in a way that is not only uncommon, rare,
00:14:18
Speaker
I've never seen him use language akin to this before in a letter that you can actually buy directly relating American liberty and victory to providence and heaven, specifically mentioning heaven, connecting using words and connecting this religious sentiment to what he phrased as a glorious cause.
00:14:42
Speaker
You know, this is Washington rejoicing, but the connection between Washington and his sense of the destiny of the American victory, represented here with his appeal to heaven and providence, is remarkable and something that you just don't see.
Strategic Impact of Washington's Letter
00:15:00
Speaker
So bearing all that in mind, what's your asking price?
00:15:02
Speaker
$275,000, I should specify.
00:15:08
Speaker
American US dollars.
00:15:10
Speaker
Yes.
00:15:11
Speaker
As Washington would have preferred.
00:15:13
Speaker
Okay, let's talk a little more about the historical context here, because as we mentioned, just before this letter was written, things were looking very grim for the Continental Army.
00:15:24
Speaker
But tell me more about what was the overall state of the war in this moment?
00:15:29
Speaker
This was a victory that Washington desperately needed.
00:15:33
Speaker
And he needed it not only for the American cause,
00:15:38
Speaker
but to weaken England's position in Europe as well.
00:15:42
Speaker
So bringing France more heavily into the war
00:15:47
Speaker
was a crucial goal on the American side.
00:15:52
Speaker
And one of the things that this victory at Saratoga allowed Washington to do was to make an appeal, hey, we might win this thing.
00:15:59
Speaker
Look at this.
00:16:01
Speaker
We have this crucial victory.
00:16:03
Speaker
And it did play a major role in France's decision to be more heavily involved, which, of course, may very well have helped win the war.
00:16:12
Speaker
So in that context, what does this letter actually say?
00:16:16
Speaker
And who was it written to?
00:16:18
Speaker
Why did Washington write it?
00:16:21
Speaker
Washington had received news that day.
00:16:24
Speaker
Washington had received news that day of the victory at Saratoga.
00:16:30
Speaker
And he needed to notify a handful, and he did notify a very small number
00:16:38
Speaker
of his generals around who were keeping an eye on the British movements in and around Philadelphia.
00:16:46
Speaker
And he needed to get ready for his own winter in camp and really bolster the army.
00:16:52
Speaker
He needed more recruits, needed more people, more soldiers in the field.
00:16:58
Speaker
So the letter makes that point.
00:17:01
Speaker
Well, there's nothing like a victory to inspire enlistment, right?
00:17:06
Speaker
Well, I think that was, you know, the victory accomplished that goal as well.
00:17:12
Speaker
But it allowed Washington to frame the war in a slightly different context.
00:17:20
Speaker
You know, we're not on the run.
00:17:23
Speaker
We're able to beat this large, well-trained army.
00:17:28
Speaker
And look how many of them just surrendered.
00:17:32
Speaker
So the letter says, I mean, it's just an incredibly powerful letter.
00:17:36
Speaker
I congratulate you upon the glorious successes of our arms in the North, an account of which is enclosed.
00:17:42
Speaker
This singular favor of providence is to be received with thankfulness and the happy moment which heaven has pointed out for the firm establishment of American liberty ought to be embraced with the becoming spirit.
00:17:55
Speaker
It is incumbent upon every man of influence in this country to prevail upon the militia to take the field with that energy which the present crisis evidently demands.
00:18:05
Speaker
I have no doubt of your exerting yourself in this way.
00:18:09
Speaker
Now here he goes on the beginning of the letter.
00:18:11
Speaker
He's rejoicing in, in, in the victory and kind of saying what, what it means moving forward.
00:18:18
Speaker
And now he's giving instructions to this, to general Potter, who's, you know, kind of a frontline man with the watching out for the British and reporting on the movements on the Eastern seaboard.
00:18:32
Speaker
In the post which you now occupy you may render the most important services by cutting off the enemies convoys and communications with their fleet.
00:18:40
Speaker
For this purpose, you should strain every nerve there's another thing which I would suggest and leave you to judge the practicability of it.
00:18:47
Speaker
I think that you might harass the parties of the enemy on province island in such a manner as to produce a great diversion in favor of Fort Mifflin, let me again and treat you.
Tone and Reality Before Valley Forge
00:18:58
Speaker
and through your means, every one of any influence among the militia to exert it to the utmost in exciting them to the field, whereby reasonable reinforcements, the glorious work we have in hand will be completed."
00:19:10
Speaker
So yes, he is saying, in essence, incredible victory.
00:19:16
Speaker
Thank the heavens for this victory.
00:19:19
Speaker
Now we have a job to do.
00:19:20
Speaker
And that job includes cutting off the enemy's communications,
00:19:25
Speaker
harassing them and getting them on the run in the wake of this victory, and bolstering reinforcements so that, as he put it, the glorious work we have in hand will be completed.
00:19:36
Speaker
There's something very relatable about the tone of this letter, which I think we can all understand this feeling of just having accomplished something, just having made some kind of a breakthrough.
00:19:49
Speaker
And now you want to run with it.
00:19:51
Speaker
You want to take advantage of that.
00:19:52
Speaker
You want to see what you can do with it.
00:19:54
Speaker
What are the new possibilities this has opened up?
00:19:58
Speaker
Um, how, how would you say that this tone and the language of this letter, how does that compare to others that Washington was writing?
00:20:06
Speaker
This is much more effusive.
00:20:09
Speaker
I would say that you can hear Washington's excitement in this letter.
00:20:13
Speaker
You can feel the momentum of the war shifting in this letter.
00:20:16
Speaker
This isn't just orders for troop movements here or there.
00:20:21
Speaker
This isn't asking, you know, what's going on in this town or that town, which itself would be a remarkable letter.
00:20:27
Speaker
This is Washington celebrating, but looking forward.
00:20:33
Speaker
Do you know what effect this letter had when Potter received it?
00:20:36
Speaker
I think Potter did what was asked of him, you know, I think the British kept Philadelphia and they continued to communicate and Washington went into the winter quarters of Valley Forge.
00:20:48
Speaker
So there were still hard times to come.
00:20:51
Speaker
The correspondence between Washington and Potter is published in the papers of George Washington.
00:20:58
Speaker
So you can track the back and forth.
00:21:01
Speaker
But it's safe to say that Washington's excitement here was certainly justified, but they weren't done yet.
Shifting Momentum and French Support
00:21:08
Speaker
How did the Army's fortunes change over the following months after this letter?
00:21:13
Speaker
Well, I don't know that a whole lot happened between the fall and going into winter encampment.
00:21:20
Speaker
I think there were minor skirmishes around the area, and I imagine the British were licking their wounds.
00:21:26
Speaker
And then, of course, there was Valley Forge.
00:21:29
Speaker
David Daley' Yep, and the the the Americans settled into what would be a very long cold winter just part of Washington's legacy of heroism and leadership.
00:21:39
Speaker
David Daley' You do find letters of Washington from the winter encampment of Valley Forge and we've we've carried them they're they're great letters to.
00:21:51
Speaker
But, you know, one of the, and I mentioned this earlier, but probably the most important outcome of this, well, twofold.
00:21:59
Speaker
First of all, the Americans could take on and defeat a large British force.
00:22:05
Speaker
And secondly, it convinced the French that we were worth working with.
00:22:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:11
Speaker
So you've read some passages from this letter, but I'm curious, how did the language or even the spirit of this letter ultimately work its way into the famous first inaugural address?
00:22:26
Speaker
You know, a lot of the languages you see...
00:22:30
Speaker
you see resurface again in the inaugural address, which I was interested to see.
00:22:35
Speaker
And I think the thread that runs through it is Washington's belief that there was something special and heaven sent, however you choose to interpret that.
00:22:44
Speaker
But there was a destiny about American victory, liberty, and democracy.
00:22:49
Speaker
And so I do not think that that is a coincidence that he would come back to this theme
00:22:54
Speaker
in that language after this great victory.
00:22:57
Speaker
And then again in the inaugural, he was kind of, well, he was assuming the first presidency of the United States.
00:23:06
Speaker
Yeah, another great triumph.
00:23:10
Speaker
Yeah, but it is an interesting, you know, the whole idea of Manifest Destiny and American uniqueness, the city on a hill, the...
Preservation and Provenance of the Letter
00:23:26
Speaker
you know, the specialness about American democracy and the American journey.
00:23:32
Speaker
It is interesting to see that reflected in Washington's, you know, in this letter.
00:23:37
Speaker
And perhaps not surprising then to see it resurface in the inaugural.
00:23:44
Speaker
So we've mentioned the fact that the letter hasn't been on the market before, but where has it been since 1777?
00:23:51
Speaker
It's been with the descendants of General Potter.
00:23:55
Speaker
And so how did it survive through all of those generations and why has it stayed in that family without ever having been sold?
00:24:04
Speaker
Well, I suppose, you know, the sort of rule of these things is eventually someone sells it or donates it.
00:24:09
Speaker
And I suppose it reached the person who felt like they wanted to find it a new home.
00:24:15
Speaker
You know, how did it survive?
00:24:16
Speaker
Obviously they took care of it.
00:24:18
Speaker
You know, it is interesting to think about the fact that this survived, how many things didn't survive.
00:24:24
Speaker
Um...
00:24:27
Speaker
But passing it down from generation to generation are people who valued what it was.
00:24:34
Speaker
And then why does somebody make a decision to sell it at some time?
00:24:38
Speaker
It usually isn't primarily about money.
00:24:40
Speaker
It's usually a decision that there's no one left who appreciates the piece and it's time to find it a new
Process of Authenticating the Letter
00:24:46
Speaker
home.
00:24:46
Speaker
It's better to find it a new home with somebody who appreciates it than have it get stuck in
00:24:51
Speaker
in the bottom of a box where it could get lost or torn up or, you know, anything could happen to it.
00:24:56
Speaker
So how did it make its way to you?
00:24:59
Speaker
We got a call from a, I suppose it was an email from a woman who told us, I have this letter of Washington that's been passed down in my family and it's written to my
00:25:13
Speaker
my ancestor and she sent us an image.
00:25:16
Speaker
That typically is how these things start.
00:25:18
Speaker
We want to see an image and then, you know, a lot of people think they have something and then it turns out to be a copy or a forgery or some other form of reproduction and this looked authentic.
00:25:30
Speaker
We couldn't tell that for sure until it arrives on our doorstep, which it did.
00:25:34
Speaker
And that was very exciting to have it arrive and realize what you were holding in your hand and that you were the first person outside the family to be holding it.
00:25:42
Speaker
in, I'm not gonna do the math, but a long time.
00:25:45
Speaker
Did you sort of instantly know when you saw the photo over email that this was something special or did you?
00:25:55
Speaker
Yes.
00:25:57
Speaker
You see enough of these things and you can kind of separate in your head what's important and what's not.
00:26:05
Speaker
So yes, could it have been a brilliantly devised high resolution reproduction?
00:26:12
Speaker
It could have been, I suppose, but I didn't think so.
00:26:15
Speaker
And it was obvious in the very beginning that we were dealing with something here that was exciting.
Identifying and Handling Forgeries
00:26:19
Speaker
So when you actually hold this letter and handle it and read it, how does that excite your imagination?
00:26:26
Speaker
To me, this is a glimpse into what Washington wasn't only thinking, but what he was feeling.
00:26:35
Speaker
So I think that any reasonable person would read this letter and feel the emotion of victory in the letter.
00:26:45
Speaker
And not only that, that you really get a sense into what Washington is feeling, but you can feel what it meant for him.
00:26:56
Speaker
I mean, I almost feel, I almost hear the relief in the letter.
00:27:02
Speaker
It's hard not to when they had been through so much, and this was such a big, and in some ways unexpected event.
00:27:10
Speaker
I mean, that an American upstart
00:27:13
Speaker
aspiring country could defeat, you know, trained, hardened British troops led by an experienced commander was not something that was a given.
00:27:24
Speaker
We know now that it happened, but it was not a given.
00:27:30
Speaker
So, you know, I'm touched by that and I'm touched by Washington's belief in the specialness of the American project, which is clear in the letter.
00:27:39
Speaker
I mean, it's just a great letter.
00:27:41
Speaker
He was reading it again as a reminder to me.
00:27:43
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:45
Speaker
I'm curious, I want to get into a little bit more detail about this idea of forgeries and reproductions.
00:27:55
Speaker
Of course, this has old family provenance, which of course is a great asset.
00:28:00
Speaker
But other than that, what are some of the characteristics that you look for to avoid forgeries?
00:28:06
Speaker
Well, I've written a book on this subject.
00:28:08
Speaker
How do you avoid forgeries?
00:28:10
Speaker
I mean, listen, you could read any book that you want.
00:28:14
Speaker
You could become, you could read my book first page to last page.
00:28:17
Speaker
You could read all of Charles Hamilton's books and presented with 10 documents, five of which are forgeries.
00:28:25
Speaker
You'd at best be 50-50 on them.
00:28:30
Speaker
You need repetition.
00:28:32
Speaker
You know, you need experience having seen a number of them to know how authentic documents feel, look.
00:28:39
Speaker
There are good forgers and it's an art to be a good forger.
00:28:44
Speaker
I mean, I think I make this point in the book.
00:28:47
Speaker
A good forger is an artist.
Legalities of Forgeries
00:28:48
Speaker
He's not an honest artist, but it's an, he or she's an artist, but no, but no one was perfect.
00:28:56
Speaker
So, you know, the, the, one of the, the,
00:29:00
Speaker
the best ways to really kind of think about for forgery is it's not one thing.
00:29:05
Speaker
It's the entire context.
00:29:08
Speaker
What is the document?
00:29:10
Speaker
Was the person at the location that's in that stated on the document on that day?
00:29:17
Speaker
Is the paper contemporary to the period?
00:29:19
Speaker
Is it the right shape and size?
00:29:21
Speaker
Is the handwriting consistent?
00:29:23
Speaker
Is it sloppy?
00:29:25
Speaker
Did this person have sloppy handwriting?
00:29:28
Speaker
The signature in a sense is almost the last thing because that is what forgers spend the most time on.
00:29:32
Speaker
Now there's a new problem in our field which relates to high resolution reproductions.
00:29:38
Speaker
And that can be difficult to judge on a scan, but it's not difficult to get with judge when you get the original because the papers almost always different.
00:29:45
Speaker
Suppose you could you get old paper and print something on it?
00:29:48
Speaker
Yeah, but it would look flat.
00:29:49
Speaker
It would look printed.
00:29:50
Speaker
Interesting.
00:29:51
Speaker
And how often do you get offered fakes?
00:29:54
Speaker
Oh, certainly every week.
00:29:56
Speaker
sometimes several a week.
00:30:00
Speaker
But it's usually not people who... It's usually somebody who inherited something because their grandma told them it was authentic, or it's a copy that someone bought in the 1950s that has aged with time and looks authentic.
00:30:12
Speaker
It's very rarely somebody who's just legitimately trying to cheat you.
00:30:17
Speaker
But that does happen.
00:30:19
Speaker
Somebody can quote you a document
00:30:22
Speaker
that is just plainly written yesterday and you're sure they're the ones who wrote it.
00:30:27
Speaker
That does happen.
00:30:28
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:29
Speaker
Are there consequences in those situations?
00:30:32
Speaker
Can you report those people to law enforcement?
Emotional Connections to Documents
00:30:35
Speaker
The consequences?
00:30:36
Speaker
I don't buy it.
00:30:37
Speaker
Right.
00:30:38
Speaker
But no, if I took that position and sort of pursued everyone who I felt was a nefarious actor in the field with regard to forgeries or whatever,
00:30:53
Speaker
I couldn't run my day job.
00:30:55
Speaker
And I don't mean that there's like, you know, I just, and I don't, you know, you're getting into all questions about legality.
00:31:04
Speaker
Is it illegal to send me something without commentary and say, do you want this?
00:31:08
Speaker
And it's really a forgery of a Washington letter, but you've made no representations.
00:31:13
Speaker
I don't know that some of those things end up popping up on very prominent online auctions, which his names I will not.
00:31:21
Speaker
get into, but there is a market for, for some of this material, but not with me.
00:31:30
Speaker
So I want to wrap up with a couple of questions about you.
00:31:33
Speaker
Um, you write, there's a quotation in your book that really struck me, uh, where you write that, um, the love of these artifacts is not idolatry.
00:31:43
Speaker
And I wonder if you could just talk to me about what you meant by that.
00:31:46
Speaker
What these documents are for me is more of an emotional connection of something that's within you.
00:31:54
Speaker
So, you know, we collect, most of us collect and cherish things that are written by heroic figures or people we admire.
00:32:03
Speaker
We want that connection.
00:32:06
Speaker
And the documents are the closest we can get to a tangible connection for that.
00:32:09
Speaker
What else can you find that can make that connection so clear and simple?
00:32:15
Speaker
expose an object, those are harder to find and harder to harder yet to authenticate a document self authenticates, you can look at it touch it, you know that that this great figure wrote these words touch this document.
00:32:30
Speaker
You're not worshipping it as a deity.
00:32:35
Speaker
or giving it powers beyond the powers, it has these things are best appreciated for the emotional.
00:32:44
Speaker
And for some people, spiritual connection they give you.
00:32:47
Speaker
So, you know, do you see a little bit of yourself in the character of the person who signed it?
00:32:55
Speaker
Does the sentiment expressed in the letter match or meet with something inside you that you like about yourself?
00:33:06
Speaker
You're not worshiping
Philosophy of Document Discovery
00:33:07
Speaker
the object.
00:33:07
Speaker
You're cherishing the connection with the sentiment, with that emotional connection that you form with the figure, the person who signed it, the documents a stand in to me, in my opinion.
00:33:23
Speaker
What is it if you had to choose one, one thing that really motivates you personally about your work?
00:33:33
Speaker
Does it have more to do with the thrill of the hunt and discovery?
00:33:38
Speaker
Is it the connection to the past?
00:33:40
Speaker
Is it the relationships that you develop with passionate collectors or something else entirely?
00:33:47
Speaker
You know, my job is different every day.
00:33:51
Speaker
I never know who's going to jump on the phone with me or send me an email.
00:33:55
Speaker
What document's going to come my way?
00:33:58
Speaker
The hunt is exciting.
00:34:00
Speaker
I mean, there's no doubt that
00:34:02
Speaker
engaging with people who have these very exciting documents and then buying them.
00:34:07
Speaker
Of course, it's the opposite is if you don't succeed in buying them, that's frustrating.
00:34:10
Speaker
But if you buy them, then getting them in and touching them and holding them and you have a chance to experience that emotion a little bit yourself before finding a new home for it.
00:34:22
Speaker
So the thrill of the honey is very exciting.
00:34:24
Speaker
And I learn a lot.
00:34:28
Speaker
Of course, I studied history, but the historical lesson I get every day, just doing what I'm doing, learning these elements, these small tidbits of history piece by piece and putting them together, there really aren't history books that do that.
00:34:46
Speaker
So it's an opportunity to better understand the people who got us to where we are.
00:34:54
Speaker
And I think it's a better way to understand who we are.
00:34:58
Speaker
You know, human beings have not fundamentally changed in a very long time.
Dream Discovery: Shakespeare's Signature
00:35:03
Speaker
So you see the same motivations, fears, excitements pop up time and time again throughout history, put differently, but the principle is the same.
00:35:15
Speaker
So, you know, there's a philosophical component of all this for me too.
00:35:22
Speaker
What's the next document that you'd like to find in someone's attic?
00:35:26
Speaker
Well, find me a document signed by William Shakespeare.
00:35:31
Speaker
They must be out there.
00:35:34
Speaker
You know, the man existed.
00:35:37
Speaker
He was a, he didn't die in childhood.
00:35:39
Speaker
He signed documents.
00:35:43
Speaker
So where are they?
00:35:44
Speaker
I don't know.
00:35:46
Speaker
I don't, I don't imagine we'll find one, but.
00:35:50
Speaker
But I hope, and it probably wouldn't be in an American attic, it'd probably be in an English attic.
00:35:56
Speaker
Well, we have plenty of listeners over across the pond, so keep your eyes open, and if you find one, you know who to call.
00:36:03
Speaker
You know, the counterpart to that is if you ever found one, you wouldn't be able to sell it.
00:36:10
Speaker
If you were in England, the British government would...
00:36:15
Speaker
would make a claim to it.
00:36:17
Speaker
I imagine.
00:36:18
Speaker
I mean, I'm just guessing, but I find it hard to believe that they would allow that to sell.
00:36:23
Speaker
I certainly think it would be tough to get an export license for that.
00:36:27
Speaker
Yeah, you would not get an export license for it.
Closing Credits
00:36:29
Speaker
I just, I think that they would, well, I don't know the law well enough, but I just, I think that they would thank you very much for safeguarding the document and finding it, but it would end up in the British Library.
00:36:40
Speaker
Well, Nathan Radd, thanks so much for talking with me.
00:36:42
Speaker
This has been a lot of fun.
00:36:43
Speaker
Great.
00:36:43
Speaker
Well, thank you.
00:36:46
Speaker
Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati with social media and web support from Sarah Bellotta.
00:36:53
Speaker
Sierra Holt is our digital media and editorial associate.
00:36:56
Speaker
Our music is by Trap Rabbit and I'm Ben Miller.