Transcript
Speaker: Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
Speaker: I'm Ben Miller.
Speaker: You probably already know that for me, antique objects are so compelling in part because of the windows they open into past lives, the stories they can tell us about how people lived, what they valued, what they found beautiful or useful.
Speaker: And my guest today is a dealer in something that perhaps more than any other category of antiques makes those connections intimate and powerful.
Speaker: Nathan Rabb specializes in historic documents, manuscripts, and autographs from medieval codexes to notes and letters and signatures from people like Napoleon, Abraham Lincoln, or Amelia Earhart.
Speaker: And today I'm thrilled, in partnership with the Rab collection, to bring you a story about a brand new discovery, a never-before-seen letter by, I think it's fair to say, one of the greatest celebrities of all history, George Washington.
Speaker: It's a letter written at one of the darkest hours of the war, just before the famous encampment at Valley Forge, when hope was in short supply and defeat was looming around every corner.
Speaker: Yet in this letter, we see Washington, the consummate leader, finding optimism, resolve and purpose.
Speaker: And here to tell us about it is Nathan Rapp.
Speaker: Thanks for joining me.
Speaker: Thanks for having me.
Speaker: Let's start with a round of rapid questions.
Speaker: Are you game?
Speaker: Yep, shoot.
Speaker: All right, what's the oldest object that you personally own?
Speaker: We have a manuscript from the 900s, from medieval Europe, from France.
Speaker: It's a beautiful multicolored manuscript from a religious document.
Speaker: So 10th century.
Speaker: Yeah, over a thousand years.
Speaker: That's pretty old.
Speaker: All right, there's an asteroid headed for Earth, and for some reason they've stuck you on the escape pod.
Speaker: What one document are you bringing with you?
Speaker: Well, I'm assuming that
Speaker: things are not going great, if there's an asteroid and there's an escape pod.
Speaker: So I'm going to bring something that might be useful for me.
Speaker: The vellum documents, the large appointments that presidents signed are big.
Speaker: They're nearly indestructible.
Speaker: The vellum's strong.
Speaker: You could use those for blankets.
Speaker: Maybe keep you, I don't know where I'm going on this escape pod, but if it rains, that could keep me dry.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Yeah, just pitch a tent.
Speaker: The most expensive tent ever made.
Speaker: What's the most valuable piece that you've ever touched?
Speaker: We carried and sold a document signed by Abraham Lincoln, a copy of the Emancipation Proclamation.
Speaker: These were given out, signed by him and given out at sanitary fairs to benefit the sick and wounded soldiers.
Speaker: And that was well into seven figures.
Speaker: You're now banned from your current field for reasons that we won't speculate about here.
Speaker: But you have to pick a new specialty.
Speaker: What's it going to be?
Speaker: By the way, that sounds like a great plot for a book.
Speaker: Somehow I'm banned, but getting into why I'm banned might be interesting.
Speaker: Well, whatever happened, I'm sure I deserved it.
Speaker: I think I'd want to be a park ranger.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Totally out of left field, but I like that.
Speaker: What movie has the most interesting depiction of historic letters and documents and so on?
Speaker: Well, it depends on how you define interesting.
Speaker: I'm sure there are movies that have more sophisticated treatments than this.
Speaker: But I'm partial to the Disney-ification of National Treasure, the Nicolas Cage movies, where he's kind of running around looking for objects and documents.
Speaker: And they treat with, I mean, it's a major movie, big budget movie that deals with historical documents, which one doesn't see very often.
Speaker: What's your favorite museum to visit?
Speaker: I love the Air and Space Museum, mostly for sentimental reasons.
Speaker: I used to go there as a kid, ate the astronaut ice cream.
Speaker: Nice.
Speaker: It's just, it's impressive to see such large craft inside a building.
Speaker: So I'd say Air and Space Museum.
Speaker: What's one misconception that people have about your field that you'd like to correct?
Speaker: Don't wear white gloves when you're dealing with documents.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that one.
Speaker: Okay, what's the first historic document that you became obsessed with?
Speaker: Many years ago, gosh, in my 20s, we bought a letter of Theodore Roosevelt home to his son.
Speaker: He was in Yellowstone.
Speaker: And he wrote home to his son and it was just like the letter of father would write home to a young, young child with a drawing of a pack animal.
Speaker: And I'm a father, it kind of brought a real personal side of him at an interesting moment.
Speaker: So I loved that.
Speaker: Touching.
Speaker: Now, you've written a book called The Hunt for History, which is a fantastic collection of storytelling around the works that you've handled, your own history in the field.
Speaker: Aside from that, what's one book that an amateur should read to get an understanding of the field that you work in?
Speaker: When I first joined the business, my dad gave me a few books written by Charles Hamilton,
Speaker: And I don't remember the name of him, but he wrote two or three that I think would be worthy of intro treatment.
Speaker: I mean, they're meant for a larger audience, so I'd recommend Charles Hamilton as author.
Speaker: What was your last international trip?
Speaker: Well, I went to London this summer.
Speaker: How was that?
Speaker: Very nice.
Speaker: I love London.
Speaker: I have family there, friends.
Speaker: What's the coolest document discovery that you've made?
Speaker: And I realize there's a lot of competition for that.
Speaker: Well...
Speaker: Yeah, that in a sense is the hardest question to answer because it's like, you know, every day is the potential for new discovery and they do so often come up.
Speaker: You know, finding Abraham, the telegram that went out announcing the death of Abraham Lincoln,
Speaker: is a pretty chilling and remarkable discovery.
Speaker: So I'd say that.
Speaker: But if you ask me tomorrow, I might have a different answer.
Speaker: That's fair.
Speaker: What's a mistake that you regret and perhaps learn from?
Speaker: Mistake?
Speaker: How dare you?
Speaker: I've never made a mistake.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: I retract the question.
Speaker: Mistake.
Speaker: I'm fortunate in that my dad and I worked together on some of these things, which has spared us.
Speaker: We kind of act as a check on the other.
Speaker: You know, the sort of rookie mistake that one makes is to buy something because you love it, not realizing that you may be the only one who loves it.
Speaker: So buying something and thinking it's worth a lot more money than in fact it is because I have a personal interest in it is something I've done a handful of times.
Speaker: Luckily, I get to hang out with those documents for longer than the others because they don't sell as fast.
Speaker: I'm all too familiar with that problem in the antique silver trade.
Speaker: What was the last piece that you saw that gave you shivers?
Speaker: The last piece I saw, so now I'm dealing with a temporal frame.
Speaker: Well, yesterday I saw for the first time in many years, a letter of Benjamin Franklin from July 1776.
Speaker: Franklin signed the declaration.
Speaker: His letters from that stretch are very, his letters in general are not common, but his letters from that stretch are very uncommon.
Speaker: Just a beautiful, bold signature with the dateline, Philadelphia, July 1776.
Speaker: That's yesterday.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: I feel like I want to ask you this again tomorrow.
Speaker: But for now, are you ready to talk about George Washington?
Speaker: I'm always ready to talk about George Washington.
Speaker: Fantastic.
Speaker: So I just want to start with some brass tacks.
Speaker: What is it that makes the difference between a good historic document and a great one?
Speaker: The difference between a good historical document and a great one, for me, boils down to its place in history.
Speaker: So...
Speaker: its place in history and what it says about the author, the writer of the letter in this case, we'll say.
Speaker: A good historical document may say something interesting about the author and may, you know, relate to a significant event.
Speaker: A great historical document will be revelatory about that person, show you really what's behind the curtain, what that person was thinking, feeling in a moment of great import.
Speaker: And the document itself may directly relate to this important moment in history in a way that the document is part of that moment in history.
Speaker: So, you know, there certainly is a sliding scale between good and great.
Speaker: And there are shades of gray in there.
Speaker: And for some people, the answer could be different.
Speaker: But for me, it's historical importance.
Speaker: And that window into the private lives and feeling something that you wouldn't get from the Wikipedia article.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You know, it's...
Speaker: Or something that you might get from a Wikipedia article, which is central to that person's legacy.
Speaker: So, you know, we sold a letter of Einstein earlier this year where he's discussing religion.
Speaker: Now, people really care about Einstein's perception of religion.
Speaker: He's central to this great debate of the 20th century, which I think continues about whether scientists can believe in creationism.
Speaker: and how closely a scientist like Einstein would adhere to the Bible, or in his case, the Torah.
Speaker: And I think the connection with Einstein is because he's a prominent Jew who had to flee Germany once Hitler took power.
Speaker: And so people care about his answer to that.
Speaker: And we had a letter.
Speaker: This was written.
Speaker: We bought this from the family of the guy who received it, in which Einstein flat out says, a scientist...
Speaker: properly trained, simply cannot believe in the Bible's relation of the beginning of the world.
Speaker: That's remarkable.
Speaker: And here you have, he's mixing his scientific perspective with his religious perspective in a letter, which was just incredibly exciting to find.
Speaker: It's written to a fellow Jew.
Speaker: That's a great letter.
Speaker: So let's talk about the Washington letter, the rarity of it.
Speaker: How often do Washington letters come on the market in general?
Speaker: So I would say, you know, the word rare is a relative term.
Speaker: Washington, all these things are rare.
Speaker: Are they super rare?
Speaker: You know, you'll have multiple opportunities in a given year to buy a letter of George Washington.
Speaker: I think we may have nine or 10 of them right now.
Speaker: I just bought one yesterday.
Speaker: That doesn't mean they're common.
Speaker: They're still rare by any other measure.
Speaker: But you do see them.
Speaker: I think what people look for with Washington, again, is that transition from a nice letter to something that's truly important.
Speaker: And when you get to these letters that are truly important, you may see a handful of these things surface in a given year.
Speaker: So this particular one, our subject today, it's a letter that's never been on the market before.
Speaker: Why does that matter?
Speaker: Well, you know, as a, it's always nice to find new stuff.
Speaker: So the universe of Washington letters that one can buy and sell, because there's a universe of Washington letters that you can't buy and sell.
Speaker: There's a lot of them in major institutions, university libraries.
Speaker: Those are not part of the market.
Speaker: They won't leave their depository.
Speaker: But anytime that you could find a letter that's never come up first, first of all, it's exciting.
Speaker: And it shows that these things are still hiding out there.
Speaker: The universe of new discoveries is seemingly ever expanding.
Speaker: Every time you think that you've reached the end of it, there's more there.
Speaker: But finding a Washington letter where there's no sale record,
Speaker: And the thing has never been sold before.
Speaker: And it's still, it's been kept by the descendants of the recipient or, you know, people that, that may have gotten it from that family.
Speaker: You're bringing a new Washington letter into the world of, of collecting.
Speaker: And that's always exciting.
Speaker: So what, what might you compare this letter to in terms of what's been on the market over the last decade or two?
Speaker: Well, this letter is written during the Revolutionary War, and there, of course, have been a number of great letters written during the war, some of which have gone for a large amount of money, and there are also great letters that, I mean, he wrote a fair number of letters during the war.
Speaker: He had aides to help him with the drafting and writing of some of these letters, and he was responsible for communicating with people all over the eastern seaboard
Speaker: Every day.
Speaker: In terms of comparing the letter to other letters, what one doesn't see and what was truly exciting is this connection.
Speaker: Is Washington in a moment of triumph?
Speaker: Things had not been going great and he was in for a long slog coming up in the winter encampment at Valley Forge.
Speaker: But this is a moment of triumph.
Speaker: This is the surrender of Burgoyne's army, Saratoga.
Speaker: And he's rejoicing in a victory they desperately needed.
Speaker: And you see that coming through in the letter in a way that is not only uncommon, rare,
Speaker: I've never seen him use language akin to this before in a letter that you can actually buy directly relating American liberty and victory to providence and heaven, specifically mentioning heaven, connecting using words and connecting this religious sentiment to what he phrased as a glorious cause.
Speaker: You know, this is Washington rejoicing, but the connection between Washington and his sense of the destiny of the American victory, represented here with his appeal to heaven and providence, is remarkable and something that you just don't see.
Speaker: So bearing all that in mind, what's your asking price?
Speaker: $275,000, I should specify.
Speaker: American US dollars.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: As Washington would have preferred.
Speaker: Okay, let's talk a little more about the historical context here, because as we mentioned, just before this letter was written, things were looking very grim for the Continental Army.
Speaker: But tell me more about what was the overall state of the war in this moment?
Speaker: This was a victory that Washington desperately needed.
Speaker: And he needed it not only for the American cause,
Speaker: but to weaken England's position in Europe as well.
Speaker: So bringing France more heavily into the war
Speaker: was a crucial goal on the American side.
Speaker: And one of the things that this victory at Saratoga allowed Washington to do was to make an appeal, hey, we might win this thing.
Speaker: Look at this.
Speaker: We have this crucial victory.
Speaker: And it did play a major role in France's decision to be more heavily involved, which, of course, may very well have helped win the war.
Speaker: So in that context, what does this letter actually say?
Speaker: And who was it written to?
Speaker: Why did Washington write it?
Speaker: Washington had received news that day.
Speaker: Washington had received news that day of the victory at Saratoga.
Speaker: And he needed to notify a handful, and he did notify a very small number
Speaker: of his generals around who were keeping an eye on the British movements in and around Philadelphia.
Speaker: And he needed to get ready for his own winter in camp and really bolster the army.
Speaker: He needed more recruits, needed more people, more soldiers in the field.
Speaker: So the letter makes that point.
Speaker: Well, there's nothing like a victory to inspire enlistment, right?
Speaker: Well, I think that was, you know, the victory accomplished that goal as well.
Speaker: But it allowed Washington to frame the war in a slightly different context.
Speaker: You know, we're not on the run.
Speaker: We're able to beat this large, well-trained army.
Speaker: And look how many of them just surrendered.
Speaker: So the letter says, I mean, it's just an incredibly powerful letter.
Speaker: I congratulate you upon the glorious successes of our arms in the North, an account of which is enclosed.
Speaker: This singular favor of providence is to be received with thankfulness and the happy moment which heaven has pointed out for the firm establishment of American liberty ought to be embraced with the becoming spirit.
Speaker: It is incumbent upon every man of influence in this country to prevail upon the militia to take the field with that energy which the present crisis evidently demands.
Speaker: I have no doubt of your exerting yourself in this way.
Speaker: Now here he goes on the beginning of the letter.
Speaker: He's rejoicing in, in, in the victory and kind of saying what, what it means moving forward.
Speaker: And now he's giving instructions to this, to general Potter, who's, you know, kind of a frontline man with the watching out for the British and reporting on the movements on the Eastern seaboard.
Speaker: In the post which you now occupy you may render the most important services by cutting off the enemies convoys and communications with their fleet.
Speaker: For this purpose, you should strain every nerve there's another thing which I would suggest and leave you to judge the practicability of it.
Speaker: I think that you might harass the parties of the enemy on province island in such a manner as to produce a great diversion in favor of Fort Mifflin, let me again and treat you.
Speaker: and through your means, every one of any influence among the militia to exert it to the utmost in exciting them to the field, whereby reasonable reinforcements, the glorious work we have in hand will be completed."
Speaker: So yes, he is saying, in essence, incredible victory.
Speaker: Thank the heavens for this victory.
Speaker: Now we have a job to do.
Speaker: And that job includes cutting off the enemy's communications,
Speaker: harassing them and getting them on the run in the wake of this victory, and bolstering reinforcements so that, as he put it, the glorious work we have in hand will be completed.
Speaker: There's something very relatable about the tone of this letter, which I think we can all understand this feeling of just having accomplished something, just having made some kind of a breakthrough.
Speaker: And now you want to run with it.
Speaker: You want to take advantage of that.
Speaker: You want to see what you can do with it.
Speaker: What are the new possibilities this has opened up?
Speaker: Um, how, how would you say that this tone and the language of this letter, how does that compare to others that Washington was writing?
Speaker: This is much more effusive.
Speaker: I would say that you can hear Washington's excitement in this letter.
Speaker: You can feel the momentum of the war shifting in this letter.
Speaker: This isn't just orders for troop movements here or there.
Speaker: This isn't asking, you know, what's going on in this town or that town, which itself would be a remarkable letter.
Speaker: This is Washington celebrating, but looking forward.
Speaker: Do you know what effect this letter had when Potter received it?
Speaker: I think Potter did what was asked of him, you know, I think the British kept Philadelphia and they continued to communicate and Washington went into the winter quarters of Valley Forge.
Speaker: So there were still hard times to come.
Speaker: The correspondence between Washington and Potter is published in the papers of George Washington.
Speaker: So you can track the back and forth.
Speaker: But it's safe to say that Washington's excitement here was certainly justified, but they weren't done yet.
Speaker: How did the Army's fortunes change over the following months after this letter?
Speaker: Well, I don't know that a whole lot happened between the fall and going into winter encampment.
Speaker: I think there were minor skirmishes around the area, and I imagine the British were licking their wounds.
Speaker: And then, of course, there was Valley Forge.
Speaker: David Daley' Yep, and the the the Americans settled into what would be a very long cold winter just part of Washington's legacy of heroism and leadership.
Speaker: David Daley' You do find letters of Washington from the winter encampment of Valley Forge and we've we've carried them they're they're great letters to.
Speaker: But, you know, one of the, and I mentioned this earlier, but probably the most important outcome of this, well, twofold.
Speaker: First of all, the Americans could take on and defeat a large British force.
Speaker: And secondly, it convinced the French that we were worth working with.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So you've read some passages from this letter, but I'm curious, how did the language or even the spirit of this letter ultimately work its way into the famous first inaugural address?
Speaker: You know, a lot of the languages you see...
Speaker: you see resurface again in the inaugural address, which I was interested to see.
Speaker: And I think the thread that runs through it is Washington's belief that there was something special and heaven sent, however you choose to interpret that.
Speaker: But there was a destiny about American victory, liberty, and democracy.
Speaker: And so I do not think that that is a coincidence that he would come back to this theme
Speaker: in that language after this great victory.
Speaker: And then again in the inaugural, he was kind of, well, he was assuming the first presidency of the United States.
Speaker: Yeah, another great triumph.
Speaker: Yeah, but it is an interesting, you know, the whole idea of Manifest Destiny and American uniqueness, the city on a hill, the...
Speaker: you know, the specialness about American democracy and the American journey.
Speaker: It is interesting to see that reflected in Washington's, you know, in this letter.
Speaker: And perhaps not surprising then to see it resurface in the inaugural.
Speaker: So we've mentioned the fact that the letter hasn't been on the market before, but where has it been since 1777?
Speaker: It's been with the descendants of General Potter.
Speaker: And so how did it survive through all of those generations and why has it stayed in that family without ever having been sold?
Speaker: Well, I suppose, you know, the sort of rule of these things is eventually someone sells it or donates it.
Speaker: And I suppose it reached the person who felt like they wanted to find it a new home.
Speaker: You know, how did it survive?
Speaker: Obviously they took care of it.
Speaker: You know, it is interesting to think about the fact that this survived, how many things didn't survive.
Speaker: Um...
Speaker: But passing it down from generation to generation are people who valued what it was.
Speaker: And then why does somebody make a decision to sell it at some time?
Speaker: It usually isn't primarily about money.
Speaker: It's usually a decision that there's no one left who appreciates the piece and it's time to find it a new home.
Speaker: It's better to find it a new home with somebody who appreciates it than have it get stuck in
Speaker: in the bottom of a box where it could get lost or torn up or, you know, anything could happen to it.
Speaker: So how did it make its way to you?
Speaker: We got a call from a, I suppose it was an email from a woman who told us, I have this letter of Washington that's been passed down in my family and it's written to my
Speaker: my ancestor and she sent us an image.
Speaker: That typically is how these things start.
Speaker: We want to see an image and then, you know, a lot of people think they have something and then it turns out to be a copy or a forgery or some other form of reproduction and this looked authentic.
Speaker: We couldn't tell that for sure until it arrives on our doorstep, which it did.
Speaker: And that was very exciting to have it arrive and realize what you were holding in your hand and that you were the first person outside the family to be holding it.
Speaker: in, I'm not gonna do the math, but a long time.
Speaker: Did you sort of instantly know when you saw the photo over email that this was something special or did you?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: You see enough of these things and you can kind of separate in your head what's important and what's not.
Speaker: So yes, could it have been a brilliantly devised high resolution reproduction?
Speaker: It could have been, I suppose, but I didn't think so.
Speaker: And it was obvious in the very beginning that we were dealing with something here that was exciting.
Speaker: So when you actually hold this letter and handle it and read it, how does that excite your imagination?
Speaker: To me, this is a glimpse into what Washington wasn't only thinking, but what he was feeling.
Speaker: So I think that any reasonable person would read this letter and feel the emotion of victory in the letter.
Speaker: And not only that, that you really get a sense into what Washington is feeling, but you can feel what it meant for him.
Speaker: I mean, I almost feel, I almost hear the relief in the letter.
Speaker: It's hard not to when they had been through so much, and this was such a big, and in some ways unexpected event.
Speaker: I mean, that an American upstart
Speaker: aspiring country could defeat, you know, trained, hardened British troops led by an experienced commander was not something that was a given.
Speaker: We know now that it happened, but it was not a given.
Speaker: So, you know, I'm touched by that and I'm touched by Washington's belief in the specialness of the American project, which is clear in the letter.
Speaker: I mean, it's just a great letter.
Speaker: He was reading it again as a reminder to me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'm curious, I want to get into a little bit more detail about this idea of forgeries and reproductions.
Speaker: Of course, this has old family provenance, which of course is a great asset.
Speaker: But other than that, what are some of the characteristics that you look for to avoid forgeries?
Speaker: Well, I've written a book on this subject.
Speaker: How do you avoid forgeries?
Speaker: I mean, listen, you could read any book that you want.
Speaker: You could become, you could read my book first page to last page.
Speaker: You could read all of Charles Hamilton's books and presented with 10 documents, five of which are forgeries.
Speaker: You'd at best be 50-50 on them.
Speaker: You need repetition.
Speaker: You know, you need experience having seen a number of them to know how authentic documents feel, look.
Speaker: There are good forgers and it's an art to be a good forger.
Speaker: I mean, I think I make this point in the book.
Speaker: A good forger is an artist.
Speaker: He's not an honest artist, but it's an, he or she's an artist, but no, but no one was perfect.
Speaker: So, you know, the, the, one of the, the,
Speaker: the best ways to really kind of think about for forgery is it's not one thing.
Speaker: It's the entire context.
Speaker: What is the document?
Speaker: Was the person at the location that's in that stated on the document on that day?
Speaker: Is the paper contemporary to the period?
Speaker: Is it the right shape and size?
Speaker: Is the handwriting consistent?
Speaker: Is it sloppy?
Speaker: Did this person have sloppy handwriting?
Speaker: The signature in a sense is almost the last thing because that is what forgers spend the most time on.
Speaker: Now there's a new problem in our field which relates to high resolution reproductions.
Speaker: And that can be difficult to judge on a scan, but it's not difficult to get with judge when you get the original because the papers almost always different.
Speaker: Suppose you could you get old paper and print something on it?
Speaker: Yeah, but it would look flat.
Speaker: It would look printed.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: And how often do you get offered fakes?
Speaker: Oh, certainly every week.
Speaker: sometimes several a week.
Speaker: But it's usually not people who... It's usually somebody who inherited something because their grandma told them it was authentic, or it's a copy that someone bought in the 1950s that has aged with time and looks authentic.
Speaker: It's very rarely somebody who's just legitimately trying to cheat you.
Speaker: But that does happen.
Speaker: Somebody can quote you a document
Speaker: that is just plainly written yesterday and you're sure they're the ones who wrote it.
Speaker: That does happen.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Are there consequences in those situations?
Speaker: Can you report those people to law enforcement?
Speaker: The consequences?
Speaker: I don't buy it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But no, if I took that position and sort of pursued everyone who I felt was a nefarious actor in the field with regard to forgeries or whatever,
Speaker: I couldn't run my day job.
Speaker: And I don't mean that there's like, you know, I just, and I don't, you know, you're getting into all questions about legality.
Speaker: Is it illegal to send me something without commentary and say, do you want this?
Speaker: And it's really a forgery of a Washington letter, but you've made no representations.
Speaker: I don't know that some of those things end up popping up on very prominent online auctions, which his names I will not.
Speaker: get into, but there is a market for, for some of this material, but not with me.
Speaker: So I want to wrap up with a couple of questions about you.
Speaker: Um, you write, there's a quotation in your book that really struck me, uh, where you write that, um, the love of these artifacts is not idolatry.
Speaker: And I wonder if you could just talk to me about what you meant by that.
Speaker: What these documents are for me is more of an emotional connection of something that's within you.
Speaker: So, you know, we collect, most of us collect and cherish things that are written by heroic figures or people we admire.
Speaker: We want that connection.
Speaker: And the documents are the closest we can get to a tangible connection for that.
Speaker: What else can you find that can make that connection so clear and simple?
Speaker: expose an object, those are harder to find and harder to harder yet to authenticate a document self authenticates, you can look at it touch it, you know that that this great figure wrote these words touch this document.
Speaker: You're not worshipping it as a deity.
Speaker: or giving it powers beyond the powers, it has these things are best appreciated for the emotional.
Speaker: And for some people, spiritual connection they give you.
Speaker: So, you know, do you see a little bit of yourself in the character of the person who signed it?
Speaker: Does the sentiment expressed in the letter match or meet with something inside you that you like about yourself?
Speaker: You're not worshiping the object.
Speaker: You're cherishing the connection with the sentiment, with that emotional connection that you form with the figure, the person who signed it, the documents a stand in to me, in my opinion.
Speaker: What is it if you had to choose one, one thing that really motivates you personally about your work?
Speaker: Does it have more to do with the thrill of the hunt and discovery?
Speaker: Is it the connection to the past?
Speaker: Is it the relationships that you develop with passionate collectors or something else entirely?
Speaker: You know, my job is different every day.
Speaker: I never know who's going to jump on the phone with me or send me an email.
Speaker: What document's going to come my way?
Speaker: The hunt is exciting.
Speaker: I mean, there's no doubt that
Speaker: engaging with people who have these very exciting documents and then buying them.
Speaker: Of course, it's the opposite is if you don't succeed in buying them, that's frustrating.
Speaker: But if you buy them, then getting them in and touching them and holding them and you have a chance to experience that emotion a little bit yourself before finding a new home for it.
Speaker: So the thrill of the honey is very exciting.
Speaker: And I learn a lot.
Speaker: Of course, I studied history, but the historical lesson I get every day, just doing what I'm doing, learning these elements, these small tidbits of history piece by piece and putting them together, there really aren't history books that do that.
Speaker: So it's an opportunity to better understand the people who got us to where we are.
Speaker: And I think it's a better way to understand who we are.
Speaker: You know, human beings have not fundamentally changed in a very long time.
Speaker: So you see the same motivations, fears, excitements pop up time and time again throughout history, put differently, but the principle is the same.
Speaker: So, you know, there's a philosophical component of all this for me too.
Speaker: What's the next document that you'd like to find in someone's attic?
Speaker: Well, find me a document signed by William Shakespeare.
Speaker: They must be out there.
Speaker: You know, the man existed.
Speaker: He was a, he didn't die in childhood.
Speaker: He signed documents.
Speaker: So where are they?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I don't, I don't imagine we'll find one, but.
Speaker: But I hope, and it probably wouldn't be in an American attic, it'd probably be in an English attic.
Speaker: Well, we have plenty of listeners over across the pond, so keep your eyes open, and if you find one, you know who to call.
Speaker: You know, the counterpart to that is if you ever found one, you wouldn't be able to sell it.
Speaker: If you were in England, the British government would...
Speaker: would make a claim to it.
Speaker: I imagine.
Speaker: I mean, I'm just guessing, but I find it hard to believe that they would allow that to sell.
Speaker: I certainly think it would be tough to get an export license for that.
Speaker: Yeah, you would not get an export license for it.
Speaker: I just, I think that they would, well, I don't know the law well enough, but I just, I think that they would thank you very much for safeguarding the document and finding it, but it would end up in the British Library.
Speaker: Well, Nathan Radd, thanks so much for talking with me.
Speaker: This has been a lot of fun.
Speaker: Great.
Speaker: Well, thank you.
Speaker: Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati with social media and web support from Sarah Bellotta.
Speaker: Sierra Holt is our digital media and editorial associate.
Speaker: Our music is by Trap Rabbit and I'm Ben Miller.
