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Lord Hayward and the Secrecy of the Ballot
25 Plays18 days ago
Lord Hayward is interviewed by Alex Iszatt concerning The 2023 Ballot Secrecy Act which gives greater powers to staff running polling stations to prevent overseeing another person’s vote. Following data collected by Democracy Volunteers, Lord Hayward’s bill received all party support, updating the 1872 Ballot Act, to make it an offence to influence another person’s vote in the polling station.
Members of The House of Lords rarely succeed in passing a Private Member’s Bill so this success indicates how important this new legislation was.
2025 should see new signage in polling stations discouraging so-called “family voting”.
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Overview
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to the Observations podcast. I'm Alex Izat. Now, British democracy runs on a simple principle. Your vote is yours and yours alone. But what happens when the secrecy cracks?
00:00:20
Speaker
Now, from family pressures in Tower Hamlets to viral ballot selfies, the threats are evolving. And Lord Robert Hayward is at the heart of the fight to stop them.
00:00:30
Speaker
A former MP, a polling guru, an architect of the Ballot Secrecy Act 2023. He spent decades ensuring elections work and today he's with us telling us why this law matters, why postal voting still a wild west and whether Britain's voting system can survive the age of social media and scepticism.
Motivation for Ballot Secrecy Act 2023
00:00:52
Speaker
So thank you so much for joining me today. So let's get right into it. What was the principal motivation behind the Ballot Secrecy Act 2023?
00:01:02
Speaker
I had always assumed that presiding officers at polling stations had the power to instruct anybody who was standing over somebody else to leave the polling booth.
00:01:13
Speaker
The Electoral Commission and it took the view that they didn't. And therefore, as far as I was concerned, this was a hole in the legislation which needed to be cleared. And I had all party support and set about changing the law.
00:01:29
Speaker
And it was a pleasant, successful process. Very, very few private members' bills go from the Lords into the Commons and become law.
00:01:42
Speaker
This was the first one in four years and only the third one in 15 years.
Empowering Presiding Officers
00:01:47
Speaker
And we will be seeing the result of that in terms of signs at polling stations in a few days' time.
00:01:56
Speaker
yeah We are getting there quite quickly. And so what, you know, we are going to be seeing it. So how does it enhance protections then for voters? My big fear was that essentially what we were talking about here, which democracy volunteers identified in terms of their research work and without the data from democracy volunteers, I would never have had the capacity to argue with ministers and get support.
00:02:23
Speaker
from the other parties. But essentially what we were seeing far more often than i i think anybody had realised was the regularity with which particularly men were standing over women as those women cast their votes.
00:02:39
Speaker
And presiding officers didn't feel they had the power to tell the men that they were not allowed to stand there. And particularly one can understand this when many of the presiding officers are females and physically smaller than many of the men they would probably be trying to instruct.
00:03:01
Speaker
So they now have that power of the law behind them. And that is something which is important to them, but it's important to democracy.
Cross-party Legislation Support
00:03:12
Speaker
Oh, no, absolutely. You know, you mentioned that democracy volunteers, they found one in five voters who were accompanied in booths. and That is quite high. um Of course, you know, you were all the power behind it. But did that also shock Westminster when you brought that evidence to them?
00:03:29
Speaker
Can I just clarify? It's one voters. ah polling stations witnessed that sort of problem. It wasn't one in five voters, but it's still an incredible number that anybody should be standing and watching a process which we had assumed for a century and a half was free and fair.
00:03:55
Speaker
And therefore, When I used those figures and took the different political parties through the data, they were only too willing to come and give support to the legislation.
Enforcement Concerns and Solutions
00:04:10
Speaker
And I was really appreciative of that. Thank you for that clarification. um But of course, you know, you're giving these ah people within the voting booths that extra power to help that enforcement.
00:04:22
Speaker
But do you think in real terms that it is still something that they may be wary of actually enforcing, even though they have the power behind them? Because there are still, as you mentioned, yeah women who might be intimidated and coming against your big family groups. Are any concerns that you still have that may be seen in this election coming?
00:04:41
Speaker
there's a ah There's a natural concern because people will be cautious about using a power, but I can't think of any further power that I could get from government. I haven't asked for anything else because I can't think of anything else.
Postal Voting Regulations
00:04:59
Speaker
So I'm working on the basis that this is the best possible solution to a problem, and we'll just have to see how it works over the next few years. So when we're talking about enforcement, and I know um you mentioned just there that it's the only thing that you could see that was practical, but do you believe that there could be some prosecutions we gonna we could see coming up?
00:05:20
Speaker
I really hope not. As far as I'm concerned, what i expect to happen is that the presiding officers will make the position clear. If somebody refuses to move, they will call in police officer, police officers at polling stations, and the matter will be resolved.
00:05:39
Speaker
It will be ah failure, as far as I'm concerned, of the system. but a success of the law if there is a prosecution. I really hope not. I just hope that we can go back to the what we thought was the accepted democratic process of one person having their own vote.
00:06:01
Speaker
After all said and done, polling booths were originally introduced, secret ballot boxes and the like, to ensure that either a landlord or a businessman who was employing people did not have power over an individual voter. And all I've tried to do a century and a half later is so increase the protection of the individual.
00:06:25
Speaker
As it should. um you know And if we did have seats prosecutions, you I read that there's six months in jail potentially. um So hopefully that would also make people wary. But of course, we're talking about polling booths, but the big issue is going to be postal votes.
00:06:41
Speaker
Do you not believe that people may still get coerced in their homes? I do. It's a fear that was raised on a number of occasions during the passage of my legislation.
00:06:53
Speaker
The Elections Act 2022 does tackle to some extent the issue of postal voting and privacy, but we have one of most liberal systems in the world in terms of postal votes.
Election Fraud and Vigilance
00:07:11
Speaker
It's a position i don't like. I would be much happier if we had a more restrictive system. But that is a different debate for a different day.
00:07:24
Speaker
But at least we've moved to a position whereby you can no longer have an individual literally handing in money shopping but up bags full of postal votes, which they farmed out of a community, out of a family.
00:07:41
Speaker
There are much tighter restrictions and I'm very, very pleased to see that. Well, and hopefully, yeah as you rightly say, someone may take that forward and if that's something that is going to be continuing to be a concern.
00:07:54
Speaker
Can you tell me a little bit about the the Tower Hamlets scenario? Yes, Tablet has an interesting and somewhat depressing record in terms of all sorts of election fraud, manipulation and the like.
00:08:12
Speaker
And great efforts have been made. by the chief executive, the returning officer and others in Tower Hamlets to ensure that intimidation is removed, that manipulation of postal ballots is is ended, that ah people can vote freely as an individual.
00:08:36
Speaker
It was a very, very unhappy position. There was clear evidence that it wasn't just Tower Hamlets, that there were problems elsewhere in the country, which is why we had the Elections Act with the restrictions in relation to postal votes and other aspects of registration.
00:08:56
Speaker
But... We have to be vigilant. And that's why I'm very keen on organisations like Democracy Volunteers, that they should be watching over what the system is and advising politicians, government ministers and the like as to what still needs to be a change.
00:09:18
Speaker
Because we tend to think, oh, yeah, we had democracy first and a secret ballot first and therefore we must be the best in the world. We aren't. And we need to be aware of that fact.
00:09:29
Speaker
We're just going to take quick break right now, but don't go anywhere because when we come back, we'll still be talking about the Ballot Secrecy Act 2023 and how it may affect our next election.
00:09:47
Speaker
Did you know at the last UK general election, democracy volunteers observed in over 200 Westminster constituencies the largest domestic election observation in British electoral history.
00:10:00
Speaker
You can find out more about the findings
Impact of Social Media on Voting
00:10:02
Speaker
at democracyvolunteers.org. Music
00:10:10
Speaker
Welcome back, we're talking to Lord Robert Hayward about the Ballot Secrecy Act 2023. Now we've talked about what exactly it is and why it was put into practice, but what is the future going to hold now that it's in place?
00:10:26
Speaker
Let's get straight into it. And one of the things um with regards to this ah Ballot Secrecy Act 2023 is about social media as well. and Not taking photos in the polling booth, not being coerced into telling people also who they voted for. um Obviously, that's it that's something new that is constantly evolving. When you looked at the social media aspect and and the new age of voters and seeing what they were doing, what was your ah like in to take on it all and how are you going to ensure that looking to the future that there was ah no potential coercive behaviour through social media?
00:11:05
Speaker
It's something which you you've put your finger on as a real ongoing problem. Society doesn't stand still, technology doesn't stand still and therefore what we have to do is look at potential abuses to the system and ensure that legislation tackles those potential abuses before they become an actual abuse.
00:11:33
Speaker
And the... use of iPhones, cameras, photographing ballot papers, photographing what's going on in a polling station is without any shadow of doubt one of the upcoming potential problems for all democracies over the next few years.
00:11:55
Speaker
And we will have to respond to it very rapidly. I've got in mind that the government has said that they want to introduce ah legislation ah further in relation to elections.
00:12:09
Speaker
There may be a need at that point to include some form of restrictions, further restrictions on iPhones and photography in polling stations.
Legal Interpretations and Updates
00:12:23
Speaker
I'm not clear about it, but it's certainly something that will need to be looked at.
00:12:28
Speaker
especially ah with AI as well. I know the government is very keen to make us AI forward, but when that comes to voting, there is also a worry about electoral ah ah and votes via the internet and getting them moved forward. And there's always that argument, isn't there, that anything that young people do, like take photos and then they're not allowed to do, what might make them stop voting? What do you think about that argument?
00:12:57
Speaker
I don't think it will. i have a sneaking suspicion that when people are polled in relation to why they don't vote, they latch on to the most convenient excuse, and that will depend on what generation they are and the like.
00:13:13
Speaker
the The real answer is they couldn't be bothered. And unfortunately, i want to, unfortunately, that is the case. And I want to encourage everybody of any age to participate in what they're very lucky to have, which is a democracy.
00:13:30
Speaker
And so many other parts of the world don't have. But let's not pay too much tribute to explanations, which I don't think actually hold water.
00:13:43
Speaker
That's a fair but fa comment. Do you think there could be ah any way to misuse or restrict voters for using this act? Could anyone use it to their advantage?
00:13:57
Speaker
up I think it's as watertight as it possibly can be. um Sadly, there will be things that I didn't think of, that government didn't think of, my colleagues didn't think of, and we will probably we have to go around again at some stage because we've missed something.
00:14:16
Speaker
But that's always the case with legislation, that you have to bring it up to date because technology circumstances have moved on. So I don't see it being...
00:14:28
Speaker
unaltered forever, but I do see it working for now. And of course, it feels like it came quite late. yeah All of this is a great 2023.
00:14:41
Speaker
Do you believe that it should have been
Threats to Democracy
00:14:44
Speaker
the Ballot Secrecy Act? you know It's been around for quite a while, but it has to be updated. you feel like someone really should have started this ball rolling previously and that would have helped you?
00:14:55
Speaker
ah I think many people believed that the position was already clear. It was only that the Electoral Commission took full legal advice.
00:15:09
Speaker
And I... have a feeling nowadays that legislation, if it doesn't specifically say something, then it's allowed. Whereas previously, you would look at legislation, and it was my experience when I did basic law at university was, well, what was in the mind of the legislator at the time?
00:15:30
Speaker
Clearly, they intended to make it a secret ballot. But nowadays, the interpretation is it doesn't say that. And therefore, it isn't banned.
00:15:41
Speaker
So we have to keep up with not only technology, but legal interpretations. And I guess common sense sometimes isn't always there either, is it?
00:15:52
Speaker
Absolutely. So, you know you talked about the future and that there's potential that there could possibly be change ah coming and as we change the technology and and we move with the times.
00:16:05
Speaker
What do you see as the next big threat to a boost to a democracy? I think there are two big threats that I would identify.
00:16:17
Speaker
One is what we've already touched on, which is the ongoing abuse in relation to postal voting and the availability of postal voting on too liberal on a basis.
00:16:28
Speaker
And the other one is the satisfaction of society that we have democracy and we don't have to defend it. I'm... and electoral observer in other countries.
00:16:41
Speaker
And when you go, as I did a few years ago, to a place like Zimbabwe, which I know from previous part of my life at university there, the appreciation of democracy results in people queuing for over three hours to cast their vote.
00:16:59
Speaker
Now, there are so many countries where elections are sham. As far as I'm concerned, I want us in this country to continue to want to defend not only democracy in our country, ah but help democracy in other countries as well.
00:17:20
Speaker
And you're taking that as a country that really wants to yeah be democratic and have their vote count. Do you do you think then maybe that is something that's missing within the UK that people don't necessarily believe that their vote does count? And that's why one of the many excuses why people potentially are staying away.
00:17:40
Speaker
I people use all sorts of reasons, stroke excuses, but there is a degree of satisfaction about, well, we've got it. We're fine. We can throw out a government.
Voter Advice and Closing Remarks
00:17:52
Speaker
But as far as I'm concerned, we always have to be on our guide on our guard. We have to be careful about what we have, treasure what we have and protect it for the future.
00:18:04
Speaker
Absolutely. And for all those that are potentially voting in upcoming elections, just to give them a little round up, what do you say to them when they come to their booth to vote? Don't take selfies.
00:18:17
Speaker
Don't put it on social media. Don't take selfies. Don't take somebody else with you unless you need to, because there are those who are disabled or blind in one form or another that need that assistance.
00:18:31
Speaker
But beware. It's an individual vote. Use it in that way. Absolutely. It's your vote. Make sure you take control of it.
00:18:41
Speaker
Well, thank you so much, Lord Hayward, for that insight into the Ballot Secrecy Act 2023. And no doubt we'll be having a look to see how exactly it gets played out ah in the upcoming election. So thank you so much for your time today.
00:19:06
Speaker
The Observations podcast has been brought to you by Democracy Volunteers, the UK's leading election observation group. Democracy Volunteers is non-partisan and does not necessarily share the opinions of participants in the podcast.
00:19:20
Speaker
It brings the podcast to you to improve knowledge of elections, both national and international.