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Delivering Democracy in Remote Amazonian Communities
23 Plays8 days ago
Alex Iszatt talks to Martin Simonneau of “Cool Earth” about supporting and delivering local democratic decision making in remote communities such as in the Amazon Rainforest. Martin explains that Democracy is practised by these communities and talks about how their voices are amplified at international conferences such as The United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, which recently took place in New York.
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Transcript
Introduction: Beyond Voting in Democracy
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome to Observations podcast. I'm Alex Izat. Now, today we're talking about democracy, but not the kind measured in ballot boxes. What does it mean to truly hear voices when the loudest systems drown them out?
Empowering Rainforest Communities with Cool Earth
00:00:22
Speaker
Few know this tension better than Martin Simeno. As policy lead for Cool Earth, he works with rainforest communities from Peru to Papua New Guinea, places where indigenous knowledge has sustained ecosystems for millennia.
00:00:36
Speaker
yet where decisions about their land are too often made in distant capitals or corporate boardroom. His fight to flip the script, putting power back into the hands of the people.
00:00:46
Speaker
So he's joining me today. Thank you so much, Martin, for coming on to Obspicuous Podcast. Good morning, Alex. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely. let's talk a little bit about Cool Earth ah and the policies that you have. Can you go give our ah listeners just a little bit of detail?
00:01:05
Speaker
Of course. I mean, I work for um a great charity, actually. We harness the power rainforest to try and tackle climate change. Now, you might say a lot of charities do that.
00:01:16
Speaker
And that's true. There's quite a crowded field. But the way we go about protecting rainforest is quite unusual. We work with indigenous communities and in local communities as well who have lived in rainforest, as you say, for thousands of years.
00:01:32
Speaker
And I say local communities because some of them don't identify necessarily as Indigenous. um And what we do at Cool Earth is we provide them with unconditional cash transfers.
00:01:45
Speaker
So put simply, me that's a cash payment, a small cash payment with no strings attached. So they're able to decide what to do with that money.
00:01:58
Speaker
when it comes to you know having those decisions made, we did hear often for a long, long time about the Amazon and all of the ah changes that are happening, but they always get spoken about in as you say, seats of government, heads of government. So why do you think then that it's taken so long for some of these local communities to have their voices actually heard?
Challenges in Indigenous Representation at Global Forums
00:02:22
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's right. I mean, I'm glad do you highlighted point that we are making a bit of progress and Although I don't know if anyone's aware, but currently, i as we speak, there is the 24th session you the UN Permanent Forum on Indigenous Affairs, which don't think many people know. i mean, it's quite a big yeah congregation of of Indigenous leaders and Indigenous communities from all around the world in New York at the minute discussing what they should do to protect their knowledge systems, their practices, and also decide what their future is going to look like.
00:02:57
Speaker
And so these events happen, however, not enough. And I mean, the the reason they don't happen enough is because obviously indigenous peoples and their communities have a long history of persecution and oppression.
00:03:14
Speaker
and We're looking at the Amazon today and the colonization of the Americas is the reason why many indigenous people today still struggle to have their voices heard in global environment.
00:03:30
Speaker
um Along the time is what we hear more than anything of people like me talking about the Amazon or their communities, which is problematic, even though I come from a place of, of you know, ah well-wishing place where I want to help these communities.
00:03:46
Speaker
We'll also hear from governments and their leaders talking about the Amazon and the rainforest at the Things like COPS, the conference of parties every November, when where the rainforest is discussed, where the fate of the Amazon is discussed.
00:04:00
Speaker
We'll hear it from and business leaders even. you know Even the damaging industries have got great PR campaigns or PR stunts saying, let's protect the Amazon.
00:04:12
Speaker
But is it really working? It's debatable. It's questionable. and And too often, yeah, the people that live in the Amazon, the people that have lived experience of the reality, of the complexity of the reality in these places are completely left out and because of various policies, because of new laws coming out that ah damage their knowledge system, their practice systems, then their their own conception of what development looks for them, you know, today, but also tomorrow.
00:04:43
Speaker
And too often we impose a certainty on these these And that's the real issue is. Well, of course. And you know that does you know break down what is democracy to them, really, because obviously we're then also imposing our own ideologies of what democracy is. You're talking about you know that the meeting in New York now, but that's isn't necessarily something that those particular communities would have had to deal with internally. So when it comes to democracy, do you think that we might be enforcing ah maybe a way that isn't quite what they want?
Democratic Practices and Corruption in Rainforest Communities
00:05:20
Speaker
Absolutely. i think I think giving them a voice is probably the first step for them to be able to to to express or convey a a more precise narrative or ah complexity that they have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.
00:05:35
Speaker
And democracy exists within these, you know, these communities. What we often see is very remote communities, which are actually very well connected to the rest of the world.
00:05:46
Speaker
It's not because you live in the middle of the rainforest and you have to travel there by pickup trucks and boats and, you know, buses and then walk for another 10 hours that you're completely, know,
00:06:00
Speaker
ignorant into what's going on in the rest of the world. In fact, you're very well connected. And and actually, a lot the communities we work with, and we're going hire the ones we work in in Peru, so these partnerships we've established for almost 20 years have got very strong democratic processes.
00:06:15
Speaker
They elect their own leaders, they elect a leadership committee, then they have general assemblies where they decide how issues should be analyzed and resolved, should there be any issues?
00:06:29
Speaker
And you know that that there is a voting system in place. and Now, like any democracy, corruptions also exist. Problems also arise. and Leaders are not always the the best leaders.
00:06:43
Speaker
and Debates occur, et cetera, et cetera. So I think, but but at least what what's interesting is that what's important at this stage is that whatever issues they debate within their communities,
00:06:55
Speaker
is is what's happening to them currently. So tell you the impacts of climate change. So longer droughts, which is quite unusual in a place called the rainforest. But this is very much the case nowadays because of how climate change is so, and is is is shaping actually the nature of their environment.
00:07:16
Speaker
And they have to take measures to address those.
Local Decision-Making in Climate Change
00:07:20
Speaker
Now, too often, as you say, it's people in New York, in Washington, in Paris or London that are going to make those decisions on how to address those issues in these quite small communities.
00:07:34
Speaker
And what Kudav did was to say, well, actually, we probably shouldn't make those decisions for them. They should tell us what they want to do. And this is why the power of cash and why we deliver those small cash payments are so important, because they're able to so address their own priorities and shift those issues.
00:07:53
Speaker
needs should they need to. One day it could be floods, the other day it could be drought, the other day it could be food security or health, etc, etc. But obviously, when it comes to ah those climate issues that they're seeing, we see the pictures over here and it can be devastating, but it is easily forgotten and therefore people don't quite understand. And then we have obviously here in the UK, we have climate activism um where people are upset about protests um on the streets, which also does take away from the idea that climate issues are quite prevalent in societies, as you're talking about.
00:08:34
Speaker
What do you think then needs to change? Because that mindset in people from Western societies are frustrated and annoyed realistically about climate activism. So from your point of view and from what you're seeing, what do you think needs to change?
00:08:53
Speaker
i think i think most people, well, I don't know if it's most people, but lot people are concerned. i think I think it's the ones that, you questioning whether we should address climate change that make a lot of noise but i don't think it's a majority they just you know take up a ah whole big space in in the media and that's always been the case you know i mean obviously it's slightly harder now with what happened in the United States earlier this year a new government would you know the most powerful country in the world and electing Trump again has damaging effects on the rest of the world and
00:09:32
Speaker
create this this continuing narrative whereby environmental issues or or climate issues at classes work and that's problematic. um But I think there is progress. I mean, I think when you ask readers or or people that read the news in the UK, I think that they are concerned about the environment. fact, the top three, when when we're asked you know what what people want to see in the in the news, within that top top three, you have environmental issues.
00:10:02
Speaker
people have the appetite to know, to understand more and to know more and to act more. and Now, I understand it also for the media. It's very difficult to convey how difficult the complexity of the rainforest, about what it means to live there, what it means to struggle potentially on a day-to-day basis.
00:10:21
Speaker
And it's very difficult to write a paper or a story in a creative way that engages the audience for them to act. And that's why the role of NGOs continues to be important. So in my current position, I'll never stop telling people to to donate, to support us, to really look at, you know, what charities are out there, because there are a good ch a lot of good charities, not just Cool Earth, who are working on these issues, but also given the difficult funding landscape after the changes to USAID, for example, or even,
00:11:00
Speaker
and Currently in the UK, the government wanting to spend more on defence in the military, possibly rightly so, at the expense of aid budgets or climate budgets. and This makes it quite a difficult landscape to work in.
00:11:16
Speaker
But there is still momentum. There are strong coalitions within the charity sector or even within the civil society to keep pushing, to to keep putting these issues right at the top the agenda as huge priorities.
Including Indigenous Voices in International Climate Conferences
00:11:34
Speaker
Well, you're right. And I think sometimes obviously people who as shout loudest aren't necessarily the right ones or the majority um if they're, you know you're from what you're understanding and hearing, but they always do make the major coverage, don't they?
00:11:48
Speaker
and But when it comes to like, looking at those communities that you're working with out in Peru, ego in Amazon, do you feel that um there the environmental campaigns, those voices, you they're dealing with extreme weather issues, they're dealing with ah food issues, things that potentially, I get on Western Sites, can't necessarily comprehend. and Do you feel that there is something missing in the democratic process
00:12:19
Speaker
to help them go from nick what what they're seeing every single day to actually fitting also into how other people can can help them? Is there something that that is missing?
00:12:33
Speaker
Always, I think we can always do more.
00:12:37
Speaker
Again, you know, we we as as we said, you mean democracy is possibly at risk at the minute, globally, right, which puts even more pressure out on these more vulnerable, more marginalized communities with their own democratic processes.
00:12:51
Speaker
And yes, absolutely, we need to give them more more of a voice, more of a of a share of ah the democratic process. We're trying to do that at the various international conferences like COP.
00:13:06
Speaker
Last year I was in Baku in Azerbaijan, so quite a controversial COP, as you can imagine. had And thanks to some of our supporters, we were able, and our allies, we were able to bring and some Indigenous leaders.
00:13:22
Speaker
So they already have a space. And we did at our own small level. Cool earth isn't a household name yet. We're still sort of relatively small charity. But we are committed to making sure that our voice might be important in the, and in the Cool Earth voice might be important in these conferences, but the most important voice are the voices of the people we support. But again, what as I was saying at the beginning, this is probably the first step.
00:13:50
Speaker
The next step is how do we make sure they have the tools to actually influence? How do we make sure that they have the power to take decisions and to make as decisions within our sector? I mean, the conservation sector is very conservative. It's very Western-led.
00:14:07
Speaker
It's not community-led. It's not Indigenous-led. And we have to change this. for the for the future of the planet. Well, of course, when it one is led by businesses who um then have the narrative that you know they're helping people save money on their groceries and they're in their you know local shop, and not really realising how much of the devastation that it's causing, you know those kind of narratives are often heard a louder than the people, the voices that are on the ground.
00:14:41
Speaker
And obviously we're living in a very social media world and not all of these voices from the communities are are going to be able to get online and and do the TikTok video to help.
00:14:54
Speaker
So do you feel that the that that disconnect with like these big huge businesses and a able, by having all the money to be able to do these social medias. Do you think that, and you know, do you think that that's maybe something that could be worked on?
Business, Media, and Indigenous Rights in Climate Change
00:15:10
Speaker
Absolutely. i mean, again, you know, businesses have the role to play in in fighting the climate crisis or the biodiversity crisis. I'm not completely not against that. I'd also say argue that there is so much creativity in a lot of these rainforest communities. A lot of people know how to work a phone definitely, or be far better than I can, that will or understand social media.
00:15:35
Speaker
Now, yeah, we need to make it more accessible, absolutely. And then let them express in whatever creative way, also using their own codes, what it means to live in the rainforest, what it means to protect it, what it means or what the rainforest of the future will be like. And essentially that is Kauldeuf's role in a way, um is to to highlight how that can be achieved.
00:16:00
Speaker
and Because these yeah these communities are so resilient. i mean, they've been fighting these threats for and They understand how our planet works.
00:16:12
Speaker
They also understand how important healthy ecosystems are to the survival of their societies, but our entire species as well. and say So to allow them to publicly express what it means, what does it look like on the ground would be a great achievement at this stage.
00:16:35
Speaker
Oh, and it shouldn't it shouldn't take it this long, really. you know we We've had the um the issues with the climate problems for many years. And we've also though had some backlash from some indigenous communities Not long ago, um we had the Anzac Day tribute ah with the Indigenous Australian ah people got shouted at and abused.
00:16:58
Speaker
People generally ah starting to get a little bit angry or annoyed that some of their rights they believe are taken away from them. How do you ah fight against that when people are like, well, no, I was here.
00:17:12
Speaker
um I should also have these these rights. I should also be heard. And then also elevating those local voices as well. It seems quite a hard balance. How do you try and encompass that?
00:17:25
Speaker
Correct. I mean, the thing is that Indigenous peoples have been, are probably some of the most marginalised group in the whole of society. And like like many other groups, and I'm not saying they're the only ones, and so many things will have to be done for them. Well, mean, there's a whole package of like transformative policies and and changes that will need to occur for them to actually reach a level where where they are respected and and heard.
00:17:56
Speaker
and In Peru at the minute, we're currently monitoring quite yeah a devastating new law called I mean, which has been dubbed the anti NGO NGO law, and whereby government's trying to prevent NGOs charity, but even national and local indigenous organizations from and taking legal action whenever there's a human right violation issue or crimes against human rights, against human beings.
00:18:28
Speaker
And that's just been passed by Congress. So that's what we're fighting against constantly, whether it's people, you know, criticizing how indigenous peoples live or whether it's government going against their own indigenous peoples.
00:18:45
Speaker
Again, you know this is nothing new. you know This is something indigenous people in local communities have had to endure over so many decades and centuries. What's amazing is is the resilience they have to keep fighting them.
00:19:00
Speaker
and I don't think they'll stop. and They'll continue and they'll create new processes and new alliances and new events or conference conferences, networks, circles, whatever you want to call them.
00:19:12
Speaker
to continue to fight for for their existence and their rights. Not only that, but also the existence of the territories they live on, which are generally, yeah, full of biodiversity, full of life, are very important, carbon sinks in our case.
00:19:29
Speaker
um So these natural harbours that we desperately need to to to keep and in order to find a climate crisis. Human rights issues are being violated is something that can get quite easily swept under the carpet.
00:19:48
Speaker
Another one of the um major problems with having a society that potentially doesn't fit the Western narrative is that it kind of makes the media and then it kind of just goes away again.
00:20:02
Speaker
ah That kind of issue, if you're fighting against something like that, you know what what do you see as like the future because this kind of violation keeps coming up over and over again and then gets ignored?
00:20:15
Speaker
is Do you feel that we're going to get to a place where everybody at least has the basic human rights?
Financial Security and Indigenous Empowerment
00:20:23
Speaker
And you have to think that it's possible. You know, how long is it going to take? That's a different different question. Whether it's going to be even possible, i mean, it's another question. back But essentially, mean, the way, what we do actually call it, so these small payments that we give to individual households or even communities as a with no strings attached, rests on the, ah or relies on the idea that that that every human being, regardless of who you are, where you are what you do, should have financial financial security as as a basic necessity.
00:20:56
Speaker
And from there, you build on to doing whatever you need, right? But at least there is a kind of safety net. And particularly for those people the front line of the the climate crisis or the biodiversity crisis, I mean, these people are not responsible for the situation we're in.
00:21:13
Speaker
They're not, and they're also being asked to work so hard to contain it or fight it with practically nothing at their disposal. So no resources, no money, no ability to influence policy at a national level, et cetera, et cetera.
00:21:30
Speaker
So yeah, I mean, they they the struggle is is is difficult. I mean, it's a huge mountain to climb at this stage. But there momentum that's being gained. They are, for example, at COPS, they are, have momentum ah have that space to be able to advocate for their issues and to solve them.
00:21:58
Speaker
and And I guess what we're going to try and do Kulaf as well and try and this is to try and lobby more and more governments or delegations that go to these international conferences to allocate more and more unrestricted, more direct funding to go to these these communities for them to then able were to decide what's next and to actually really conceive what the future of their land or their communities is. It's not up to us to decide what it is.
00:22:28
Speaker
I mean, it's too complicated. Too complicated to to to decide for someone else. It probably works even for us in
Cool Earth's Vision for Indigenous Policy Adoption
00:22:36
Speaker
our own communities. You don't want someone a thousand miles away to decide what tomorrow's going to look like.
00:22:42
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. it And if giving that finance also helps them elevate their voices, then, you as you rightly say, that is the first step, isn't it? Because, you know, they're not completely out in the middle of nowhere, you know, trying to start a fire. thats is It's these people...
00:22:58
Speaker
want the same that we everyone has and they should have. And like human rights obviously is the first thing that they should they should be having. Do you think then um that you know with the Cool Earth Project ah and going off to COP and ensuring that NGOs as well are also heard, do you feel that at some point you can actually take a step back and say, know what, yeah this is we've succeeded, that everyone now has their voice heard?
00:23:26
Speaker
Absolutely. i mean, i think our greatest goal would be to disappear a way, which, you know I mean, to disappear in the right way, meaning we've successfully done what we set out to achieve.
00:23:40
Speaker
In a way, you know, we've lobbied governments enough to say, OK, well, our approach is the way forward. This should be implemented at the scale of all Indigenous peoples who live in the rainforest across the world.
00:23:53
Speaker
And at this stage, yeah, we can probably say, that's it, we've done what we needed to do. and And it's a policy that's been implemented across the world, and it works. We're a bit far from this, but you know, there's always hope.
00:24:08
Speaker
Absolutely, there's hope. And you know, that's what the future I think that everybody wants. So you know, getting even like the first steps to helping achieve that is positive, getting everyone to have their own say about what affects them is very important.
00:24:20
Speaker
And so, Martin, thank you so much for coming on to talk about Cool Earth and and all of the changes that you're trying to push through and interesting insights into the Amazon and Peru. So thank you so much for your time today.
00:24:33
Speaker
Thank you so much, Alex. It was great talking to you. You too.
Conclusion by Democracy Volunteers
00:24:47
Speaker
The Observations podcast has been brought to you by Democracy Volunteers, the UK's leading election observation group. Democracy Volunteers is non-partisan and does not necessarily share the opinions of participants in the podcast.
00:25:01
Speaker
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