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Behind the Polling Booth Curtain in Russia - Election Observation and the Threat of Imprisonment
18 Plays13 days ago
Matt Davis interviews Russian election expert Ivan Shukshin. Ivan has extensive experience working with election observation initiatives, advocating for transparent and fair electoral processes in Russia.
His work focuses on exposing electoral fraud and mobilising public engagement in defending voting rights. Despite the challenges of operating in a restrictive environment, Shukshin continues to be a vocal advocate for democratic reform, regularly contributing to policy discussions and civil society efforts aimed at strengthening electoral democracy in Russia.
Listen to the insights of someone who has been falsely accused of crimes in Russia to prevent his right to observe elections, who now lives abroad to avoid imprisonment.
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Transcript
Introduction to Observations Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Observations Podcast, hosted by Democracy Volunteers. I'm Matt Davis, the Special International Elections Correspondent for the Observations Podcast. Today, I'm delighted to be joined by an international guest who's come over to the UK to observe a Scottish parliamentary by-election.
00:00:25
Speaker
We have a rare opportunity to discuss some observation work being done by other groups of observers. I'm here with Ivan Shukshin.
Election Observations in Russia
00:00:33
Speaker
As election observers who are visiting the UK from Lithuania as Russian amigres, we're interested to learn about your experiences observing some areas that we haven't observed.
00:00:43
Speaker
So let's take for example Russia, although I know you've also observed Azerbaijan and Georgia and other places that we haven't necessarily gotten around to for one reason or another.
00:00:54
Speaker
So starting with Russia, what are are the main issues with Russian elections that you've observed? Hello everyone. ah The main issue is that it's a total fraud mostly and you can't say it's free and fair because it's it's not free in terms of ah right to be in the ballot and it's not free in that in the way you control voting.
00:01:24
Speaker
so and and Of course it's not fair during the counting process and sometimes it's violent even.
00:01:34
Speaker
So what are some of the things that you've seen I suppose that kind of impact that fairness and I suppose freedom as well? oh So I know you've mentioned issues in the counting um process, what have you observed in that?
00:01:52
Speaker
Well, actually there are so many issues that it's hard to explain everyone. are unique, but for example, observers are not allowed to be near the counting table, so they can't see marks on the ballots and they have to believe and sometimes they are punished for coming to the table and they are grabbing.
00:02:18
Speaker
Police are trying to remove them from the public station no and sometimes the police can't do it without a court decision and they they're doing it via court the eight they falsify some they write like evidences that we saw here
00:02:48
Speaker
He interfered with voters, but it's a lie and they just say it.
Political and Media Landscape in Russia
00:02:55
Speaker
That's how they remove an commission member or independent observer from observing.
00:03:05
Speaker
So I suppose Why do you think Russian elections have failed to achieve democratic aims? Is it just that there is always been these kind of issues impacting freedom and fairness of these elections?
00:03:24
Speaker
I think the key point is that at first Putin's terms
00:03:32
Speaker
economical situation was quite good and everyone got abstained from political political life and they missed that critical point when the power was seized very well.
00:03:46
Speaker
Okay. So like, like Zehnavallny and others, they tried to start massive movement in 2011, but it was but it was It was already late.
00:04:02
Speaker
so They poisoned, they spoiled the whole system by that time. Putin started in twenty in his first term, during his first term. so Russia now.
00:04:20
Speaker
What role does the media have? um do people Do you think the population in general believes what they see in Russian media?
00:04:35
Speaker
It's hard to answer. Because a during the war all independent media were banned, blocked, claimed foreign agents and the their websites were blocked.
00:04:52
Speaker
So now this whole area has changed during the war. who and so so now and and I'm not talking about media, but about social media as well, like Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, everything is banned.
00:05:13
Speaker
So, of course, people feel that and they are not stupid, they feel that everything is biased to pro-Kremlin position.
00:05:25
Speaker
but it does affect the way they perceive the reality and sometimes they this they they don't want to be in this opposition to the mainstream. So they got abstained for from political life as well.
00:05:47
Speaker
Right, so you think kind of... most people in reaction to some issues with it is just to kind of disengage and just let political life be someone else's role, I suppose.
00:06:03
Speaker
They know that it's a dangerous thing, it's a dirty thing.
Unpopularity of the War in Ukraine
00:06:10
Speaker
yeah You've mentioned a bit about the um the war and I was wondering What impact has that had? Obviously you said it's kind of led to do this clamping down on any independent media.
00:06:24
Speaker
Has it had any other impacts on Russian elections? Well, the Kremlin tries to
00:06:35
Speaker
to to bring these soldiers to elections, they fight usually they fail. People don't like them, they are stupid, they are violent, they just see So I think they failed this mission to incorporate these heroes into the political life.
00:07:02
Speaker
see the Okay, so were people showing up to the polling stations of dress up you know as their soldiers? No, I mean candidates.
00:07:14
Speaker
Oh, okay, yes, yeah. They want to put them into the ballot. Right, okay, but from what you understand, least, people haven't been receptive to that, you know, they're not... No, they they stay don't win.
00:07:29
Speaker
Yeah, okay, is that... They're not popular, maybe they they feel it. Is that a... Is that a sign of and unpopularity or the lack of popularity of the war in Ukraine in Russia? Of course it's not popular.
00:07:44
Speaker
Maybe 25% is an active supporter. youre can you can It's hard to make opinion polls in Russia because sometimes it's illegal ah for for having a wrong answer.
00:08:01
Speaker
she so yeah But if you ask them, say, huh we have an extra billion of rubles, what should we spend it to? To education,
00:08:16
Speaker
so um to the war or something else? And the war, but so So, just a few percent. Okay.
00:08:29
Speaker
I know in other conversations we've had you've mentioned that anti-war candidates have been under the post-accused by the Russian state, right? Yeah, Nadizhyn was the anti-war candidate. And so, what's your question?
00:08:44
Speaker
I was just asking you to kind of yeah say a few examples of album that, because I know you've mentioned it, but as you were saying then, Yeah, he was anti-war, but he was so sleek.
00:08:58
Speaker
He's kind of a part of a system. He's very wise, but he still was anti-war. Nevertheless, he didn't get to the ballot. So even someone who can work within the system struggles if they express distant... Yeah, he was the mual depu a Moscow region.
00:09:22
Speaker
He tries to find the way, but if are anti-war, everything forbidden. And so, kind of about social media, you've mentioned already, but is there any chance for alternative viewpoints to get through on that front, or not really?
00:09:43
Speaker
VPN is very popular thing in Russia because this censorship was introduced very during three years so everyone had time to be prepared But it's a it's very easy for young men, but it's it's not so easy for elderly people.
00:10:13
Speaker
e so They need help. They are affected by propaganda very well. So we'll we'll move on and just talk a bit about some other kind of election observation experiences you've had.
Election Observations in the Caucasus
00:10:28
Speaker
So I know you've you observed it in Azerbaijan and Georgia. And Armenia. doenia ah Can you just tell us a bit about those experiences? What kind of things have you found and how healthy you think their democracies are at the moment?
00:10:46
Speaker
As for Armenia, my first observation was seven years ago, right after the revolution. the It was a bit strange, a bit weird that the same commissions at polling stations, they
00:11:06
Speaker
accidentally started to count, who she not not as they were told to, just, they just counted votes without was any fraud.
00:11:18
Speaker
But, so the same people, but without any fraud. That was fantastic. And Armenia, they have online video broadcasting from from each polling station.
00:11:36
Speaker
oh It's not a case in Scotland, but it's it works in Armenia, Azerbaijan and Russia. So Armenia was the first democratic country, which I observed online.
00:11:53
Speaker
yeah And as for Azerbaijan, they have broadcasting from each sixth public station. oh But it's ah They do not have free and fair elections.
00:12:09
Speaker
they and <unk>s It's so strange that they put it online and we can observe it, we can say see the whole polling time and calculate and count how many people voted and compare it to official results.
00:12:27
Speaker
And we see that differs sometimes twice. Well, one polling station, they got about 700 voters. It was a lot of use, but it was only 300 in the protocol.
00:12:44
Speaker
okay right So they just forged the protocol without any connection with how many people voted. for Okay, those are quite interesting observations that you have there.
00:13:00
Speaker
Yeah. It's very interesting to observe online because you don't have to travel, it's very cheap. Everyone can observe elections in Azerbaijan, at least while it's open for everyone.
00:13:14
Speaker
Also, you kind of broadcast that to anyone in the world? Yeah. can you that There is a specific website. it was open right five minutes prior the voting start but still it's open maybe if they find that someone observe using it they will ban it like in Russia they banned it in 2021 right before parliamentary elections but still we were able to get the success
00:13:51
Speaker
say Yes, yes. How have you handled those difficulties of having to adapt to, suppose, restrictions on the ways that you've been observing?
00:14:03
Speaker
Because I know it used to be possible to observe we're physically in Russia, and then now that stopped happening. And then similarly they've... clamp down on these video feeds.
00:14:16
Speaker
Okay. We always a adapt. every Every year they change legislation and they they restrict observer rights, like right to see the documents of the commission, or to make videos or photos.
00:14:37
Speaker
that's I know it's forbidden in Scotland, but in Russia it's very... you need it to prove something happened. So every election we adapt, we look through the legislation changes and we find the way to be observers. say If you are not allowed to be an observer, we found a way that now one can be and can observe being a financial representative of a candidate.
00:15:13
Speaker
okay so heat They limit observer rights but still we find a way how to observe at least a bit of this position.
00:15:28
Speaker
We are that much people can find it.
00:15:32
Speaker
what Are there any kind of challenges that you think are coming up for yourselves as observers in some of these countries?
Challenges for Observers and Solutions
00:15:45
Speaker
Challenges? Well, as for Russia, the the main challenge was the one when we left Russia. Because some of observers, independent observers,
00:15:58
Speaker
now they are in Russia and we are in contact, we are trying to help them to to study this legislation, to to be prepared for the observation.
00:16:10
Speaker
yeah So oh it's hard to... you are losing grip when you left the country. so And maybe the observers inside the country, they they they lose some belief that we can help them.
00:16:31
Speaker
so And they lose their belief in elections as in total. They see that everything is getting worse and worse. Yeah, yeah.
00:16:44
Speaker
Okay. Psychological thing is very important and very hard. Absolutely. So is there anything else you'd like to to say to me?
00:16:57
Speaker
Well, thanks as for video observation, oh think it would be great if you had video broadcasting from polling stations, at least with overview, just to to see, to for everyone to be able to watch what's happening, that everything is a fair like in if if you are not If you are afraid of showing faces of waters, you can at least the broadcast counting process like in Bulgaria.
00:17:35
Speaker
ah They count it at police station and right after the four counting starts, talk so they turn broadcast on and it's available for everyone.
00:17:50
Speaker
Okay, yeah, no, I think, let's say, kind of, on our end, I think the reason why we don't is just that that could feel like, I don't know, that perhaps an imprint of kind of the right having, like, a secret ballot and to kind of making sure that your vote is your own, that you're kind of not, in fact, kind of too watched doing that. I do understand your points there. Yes, you, you know, you can increase trust using this, or maybe you can, maybe it's an easiest way to open doors for everyone to remove this process of
00:18:25
Speaker
It's not verifying by electoral commission. so So if you just live here you might be able to visit police station during counting and observe by yourself, like like just a voter, that everything is fine and everything is counted fine.
00:18:44
Speaker
But I think it's not the case since you counted not in police station. We counted somewhere else anyway. But okay, yes, yeah. I see. I suppose on that front, it's... We like the idea of having an accreditation so that you know that someone's gone through at least some checks you know before before observation.
00:19:03
Speaker
But thank you very much, Kristen. Thank you very much for joining me today. Thank you.
Conclusion and Future Observations
00:19:07
Speaker
And yeah, i I hope you enjoy observing with us this Thursday. I think it could be real chance for you to find...
00:19:15
Speaker
to learn first hand, I suppose, how our system works from the ground level and then also learn a bit more about the work that we do as domestic observers in this country. Thank you for invitation the I'm looking forward for tomorrow's observation.
00:19:31
Speaker
it think it would be great to compare it to other countries because it's very unique system. Yeah, thank very much.
00:19:48
Speaker
The Observations podcast has been brought to you by Democracy Volunteers, the UK's leading election observation group. Democracy Volunteers is non-partisan and does not necessarily share the opinions of participants in the podcast.
00:20:02
Speaker
It brings the podcast to you to improve knowledge of elections, both national and international.