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President Trump and Preserving and Protecting The Integrity of US Elections
32 Plays24 days ago
US Elections expert David Levine is interviewed by Edd Charlton on President Trump's Executive Order "Preserving And Protecting The Integrity of American Elections" and its impacts on US democracy. They also discuss Congress's SAVE Act (Safeguard American Voter Eligibility) and how this effects the way American elections will work in the future.
David Levine is a senior fellow at UMD’s Center for Democracy and Civic Engagement, who works to ensure that eligible voters can vote, free and fair elections are perceived as legitimate, and election processes are properly administered and secured. He is also an election security adjunct professor at George Mason University, an advisory committee member for the Global Cyber Alliance's Cybersecurity Toolkit for Elections, an advisory council member for The Election Reformers Network, a member of the Election Verification Network, and a contributor to the Fulcrum.
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Transcript
Intro
Introduction and Context
00:00:10
Edd
Hello and welcome to the Observations podcast.
00:00:13
Edd
We are a nonpartisan apolitical podcast. My name's Ed. I'm going to be your host today.
Focus on Election Integrity and SAVE Act
00:00:18
Edd
and today's episode is going to focus on preserving and protecting the integrity of American elections.
00:00:25
Edd
This is following the changes to the SAVE Act brought forward by President Trump. I'm very honored to be joined by David Levine,
Guest Introduction: David Levine
00:00:35
Edd
David is a senior elections integrity fellow at the Alliance for Securing Democracy and at the German Marshall Fund, where his success work of vulnerabilities in election infrastructure and administration, as well as policies,
00:00:49
Edd
David, thank you ever so much for joining us.
00:00:52
David Levine
Ed, thank you for having me.
00:00:54
Edd
It's an absolute pleasure. Can we just start? Can you just give us a bit of a background to you? What's brought you to where you are today in terms your career for our viewers out there?
00:01:02
David Levine
Sure, Ed. no I appreciate you starting off with that question. um In 2006, I was in law school in Cleveland, Ohio, and there was an election um that spring that went awry in a number of respects.
00:01:18
David Levine
And the Cuyahoga County Election Board, which is includes Cleveland and its surrounding areas, made the very smart decision to appoint a three-member panel of experts to look into what went wrong.
00:01:29
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:01:30
David Levine
The less smart decision was that those three members decided that they were going to um hire lackeys ah from the nearby law schools to get their coffee, do their research, run their copies, and anything else that they needed. And I was one of those lackeys.
00:01:46
David Levine
And it was a really, really wonderful experience. I got to ah look at um how poll worker training was conducted, ah how voter outreach was done, ah how voting equipment was procured, and a whole host of other things that led to the struggles that the county had with its elections.
00:02:04
David Levine
um And that was what propelled me into this field that I've now been in ever since then.
00:02:09
Edd
Incredible, thank you.
Understanding the SAVE Act and Executive Order
00:02:11
Edd
So today we're going to be focusing on the SAVE Act, which is being introduced or is trying to be introduced at the moment. and For those of those those people who may not know, what has changed with this executive order? Can you give us and an overview of that?
00:02:27
David Levine
Sure, Ed. Well, I want to mention sort of two pieces. So one is um the SAVE Act, which is something that's been introduced and passed in the U.S. House of Representatives and potentially could have a vote in the U.S. Senate.
00:02:40
David Levine
um as And then there's, of course, the president's executive order, which has some overlap with the SAVE Act, but is different in a number of respects. um But the the president's, President Trump's executive order would would fundamentally restructure how U.S. elections operate in a number of respects.
00:03:01
David Levine
So to back up for our listeners, at least in the United States, elections are primarily in the domain of the states. And then Congress um has the authority um to be able to come in and also regulate elections. And they they primarily do that through the introduction and adoption of laws, but they can also do that through through hearings and ah delegation of power to certain federal agencies like ah the U.S. Election Assistance Commission.
00:03:30
David Levine
um What's interesting about ah President Trump's executive order is that the president, frankly, has large authority or broad authority to act in a number of places. And, you know, probably some of your listeners have heard about some of those actions.
00:03:47
David Levine
The president traditionally enjoys broad authority to act with regards to tariffs. The president enjoys broad authority to act with regards to immigrations. the president enjoys enjoys broad authority to act with regards to the use of the military. Now, irrespective of whatever you think of the president's actions in those places, right, the president does enjoy broad authority, though there, of course, are questions because of what the president has done as to whether he's overstepped his authority in those domains.
00:04:16
David Levine
What's different and interesting about elections is here, the president actually has very little authority, right? um And the president yet is taking a very big swing through his executive order.
00:04:29
David Levine
um The president ah is trying um to be able to, in some cases, make fundamental changes to how ah elections are legislated. And in some cases is making, talking about making fundamental changes to how elections are administered.
00:04:44
David Levine
um And I think that's part of the reason why we've seen a tremendous amount of litigation thus far.
Political Challenges and Legislative Dynamics
00:04:52
David Levine
I think with regards to the SAVE Act, um we see it right now in Congress ah efforts to be able to legislate ah in a way that I think um Very clearly, ah Congress has a role to act.
00:05:08
David Levine
But I think there's an interesting question as to whether or not that legislation will pass because in the U.S. House, there was um there's a narrow majority of Republicans and that enabled that legislation to pass. And while Republicans control the United States Senate,
00:05:22
David Levine
um that legislation needs to overcome a filibuster if it's to make it to the president's desk. And in order to overcome a filibuster in the U.S.
00:05:28
Edd
Yeah.
00:05:30
David Levine
Senate, you need 60 votes, which means that Republicans will need support from at least a handful of Democrats ah in order to get that legislation. And so that, I think, broadly speaking, is a bit of a difference between the SAVE Act and as well as the president's executive order, I think one of the other things that I think is fascinating about the interplay of these two initiatives is that the Supreme Court has ruled on something called the major questions doctrine.
00:05:58
David Levine
And what we've seen in the last administration with the president Biden was there were instances where the courts held that the president was trying to delegate authority to agencies where the courts found that this was something that was such a major issue that in fact it should be Congress that gets involved.
00:06:17
David Levine
And the and they the courts ruled on this with regards to climate change. They ruled on this with regards to, um they did it with regards to education and other initiatives.
00:06:27
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:06:28
David Levine
And what is actually interesting here is even if the president might theoretically be able to engage in this executive order.
00:06:38
David Levine
There's a real question about whether he's actually able to do this in light of the fact that Congress has made very clear that they want to act here and through the the SAVE Act. And so there are a whole host of hurdles, but I want to leave it there because I know there's probably a whole lot of places we can take this conversation.
00:06:54
Edd
No, that's that's absolutely fascinating. and and thank you for that. and So based on that, if this does go through, if this does happen, and and they want to there's ah push back on this, is it Congress, the courts? How would how would you see that evolving? Who would get involved?
00:07:14
David Levine
Well, I think that the final arbiter for much of this, whether it's the SAVE Act and parts of the legislation that could get challenged or the president's sex executive order will be the courts.
00:07:26
David Levine
um And, you know, we've ah regardless regardless of where you are on the political spectrum, I think everybody would agree that that that President Trump, um you know, came into office thinking he had a mandate to radically um realter
00:07:32
Edd
Thank you.
00:07:44
David Levine
large segments of American society. um And clearly, you know, he wants to do that in a whole host of places, including with the regards to elections. um I do think that, you know, when we look at the executive order, that a certain amount of this will be with the courts, but I think it's also very important to note, and we can go more into this, that a lot of what is in the president's executive order really amounts to what I call giving a speech, right? Something that other legal experts like Justin Leavitt have pointed out.
00:08:13
David Levine
um We know, for example, that the National Voter Registration Act makes very clear that you can't require right proof of citizenship on that federal voter registration form.
00:08:27
David Levine
It's clear in the language. of the National Voter Registration Act. It's also clear in the conference committees in the US House and the Senate that resolved this bill. They looked at this explicit issue and said that attestation was gonna suffice.
00:08:37
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:08:41
David Levine
And of course, after um the insurrection or the targeting of the US Capitol in 2021, Congress took a look at the Electoral Account Reform Act um and chose, frankly, not to wade in to some of these issues further. And so, um you know, what what's interesting there is that a lot of what is in the executive order amounts to sort of the president's preferences.
00:09:04
David Levine
And the interesting question will be those agencies that aren't forced to do what the president wants, right, including a federal agency like the EAC and well as state and localities, whether they will ultimately heed some of the president's calls in executive order or choose to go in a different direction.
00:09:22
Edd
That's really interesting. It's great. And as you said, there's a loads we can go into there.
Motivations Behind the Executive Order
00:09:27
Edd
Really broad here, in your opinion, why do you think he is doing this? Why is this being moved forward?
00:09:34
David Levine
I think there are few things that I think are are worth noting on. First off, again, the president has targeted American elections for the better part of the past eight years.
00:09:45
David Levine
I mean, there's no question. um The president raised concerns about um elections even following the 2016 election, you may recall.
00:09:54
Edd
ah
00:09:54
David Levine
He formed a commission ah to look at voter fraud, which organizations right and left found was a very rare issue. um that That commission was obviously hotly contested and didn't, frankly, finish out its mandate. It ultimately petered out amidst an onslaught of litigation.
00:10:10
David Levine
He questioned ah the integrity and continues to question the integrity of the 2020 election. which to be clear to our listeners was carried out in a secure manner that ultimately um reflected the views of the American voters.
00:10:24
David Levine
And he even has questioned the legitimacy of the 2024 election, which he won, in which he suggested that um to some of his supporters that the margin of victory was so big that it overcame any efforts to try and steal it.
00:10:42
David Levine
um And so, you know, I think that this president um continues to try and raise the temperature and question the integrity of elections, reason one.
00:10:53
David Levine
I think number two, um I think what's what's what's really, you know I think really important and being really thoughtful about here is um we have seen since the inauguration over the past few months that there's been an onslaught on the guardrails of U.S. democracies.
00:11:12
David Levine
um And, you know, one of the the interesting questions here, right, is that while there are guardrails that we have in place, that those guardrails are only as good as the people that defend them.
00:11:24
David Levine
um And I think there's a real question um about, you know, a question over whether or not those guardrails, right, an independent judiciary, a media organization,
00:11:38
David Levine
and reporters, they're able to do their job. Universities, right, that are able to conduct unbiased research are all facing and dealing with a certain amount of duress. And that doesn't appear to be right by coincidence.
00:11:51
David Levine
In fact, appears to be largely by design.
00:11:51
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:11:53
David Levine
And I think the third thing that that is is is is really important um and is really worth noting, I think as to why this is being done, you know, is about right, ultimately about right being able to win and ultimately, right, political power.
00:12:13
David Levine
And I think that's a really, really, really important point. You know, what we see playing out in the United States in in a number of respects isn't um completely unique to the U.S.
00:12:25
David Levine
Just the other day, ah the National Public Radio did a story talking about Viktor Orban and Hungary, and looking at other places that were studying efforts to erode
00:12:32
Edd
oh
00:12:36
David Levine
Right. Guardrails in their countries, in part by looking to what folks like Viktor Orban have done successfully in Hungary. And so, ah you know, I see this as an effort to raise the temperature around undermining the integrity of U.S. elections, an effort to retain and bolster political power and an effort to target right guardrails around small d democracies.
00:13:00
Edd
Yeah, that's really interesting. and actually that's one of the key phrases coming through from this act, the White House believes that the United States lags behind other nations in enforcing basic and necessary election protections.
00:13:13
Edd
ah Can you give any examples or do you know of anybody that the the states are currently lagging behind currently under current legislation?
00:13:21
David Levine
but Well, hopefully, this doesn't answer exactly what you're asking, please feel free to follow up. But I think one of the things that's fascinating about the executive order right is that in some instances, there the citations to those countries aren't quite right.
00:13:35
David Levine
you know We just look at the example of of Sweden.
00:13:35
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:13:38
David Levine
right Sweden only allows by-mail voting to those that are overseas. In fact, if you're if you're a local, you you live within Sweden, and you can't get to the polls early voting or in person, you got to vote by proxy.
00:13:52
David Levine
Does that mean that the white ass really is sort of supportive of moving to proxy voting in the United States? um Clearly proxy voting is is a practice that's used. It's used in the UK.
00:14:00
Edd
right
00:14:00
David Levine
It's used in Sweden number of other places, but I'm not sure that those who wrote the executive order have that thought in mind. um I do think um that there are countries that countries um that have looked particularly you know in the pandemic and look to expand opportunities to cast ballots.
00:14:18
David Levine
um But I think that in a lot of, you know, it in in a lot of instances, the US, in fact, right, is pretty good about providing opportunities to vote. um I think there's a case to be made for having perhaps greater uniformity at a minimum level, but 47 out of 50 states offer early voting in the United States, um which is which is pretty good.
00:14:40
David Levine
um Not all 50, but 47 is pretty high.
00:14:41
Edd
Yeah.
00:14:43
David Levine
and And I would also you know argue you know there are some aspects of of voting that are that are unique, right? We, you know for example, in the United States, allow have state-by-state designation for when ballots can ultimately be accepted.
00:14:58
David Levine
But I want to be really clear that like a lot of other countries, right the voters have to get the ballots two right they have to get the ballots to election authorities or send them out by or before election day. So the concern that the the White House has is about when those ballots are accepted and received.
00:15:17
David Levine
And I think you know the interesting question is if you're a military or you're an overseas voter, and you are returning that ballot by election day or even ahead of election day. And through no fault of your own, that ballot gets there a couple of days after.
00:15:32
David Levine
um you know, what that means. And so I think there's some states that have said, okay, we really want that ballot to be in our hands by election day, but others have decided that they can have the ballot, right, be accepted a few days after so long, right, as it was sent ahead of election day.
00:15:49
David Levine
And, you know, i think there's a policy debate to be had, um but it's very clear legally that that, you know, allowing ballots to come in after election day has been something that,
00:16:01
David Levine
the United States has had in some places going back decades, if not even centuries.
00:16:04
Edd
yeah
00:16:06
David Levine
And so, again, um i think, ah you know, there there are some questions around this executive order that ultimately and the courts will help resolve. um But I think that some of what's been said in terms of how ah the U.S. fares with regards to other countries, in some cases, the accuracy is a little bit in question.
00:16:26
David Levine
And in some cases, there's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison going on.
00:16:30
Edd
That's really interesting, thank you.
00:16:33
Edd
So you mentioned earlier about these, and a lot of the the postal votes and the proper, not proxy, but all postal votes are being done on a state level.
Federal vs. State Roles in Voter Eligibility
00:16:43
Edd
ah Looking at the SAVE Act, that introduces voter eligibility requirements at a federal level.
00:16:49
Edd
and Yet the US Constitution historically leaves this decision up to the states. ah Now, does this overstep ah congressional authority, in your opinion?
00:17:00
David Levine
You know, i think I think ultimately, you know, I think that Congress has a role to play here. um I think that, you know, there is provisions that allow Congress to act. I think ultimately what we see from the SAVE Act on a legal level, right, will will will help determine the nature of any legal challenges, right? Presuming that the SAVE Act is to pass and somehow make its way past the U.S. Senate.
00:17:25
David Levine
um but i But I do think a point that you have made is that um states have taken the lead on this. And you know this is not necessarily a partisan issue, right? We just saw the other day, the former Republican Secretary of States of Alabama, John Murrell and Kentucky, Trey Grayson, that weighed in and talked about um being ah being able to allow states right to do this, both from a legal but also a policy view.
00:17:54
David Levine
And I would also add that even if we allow states to perhaps allow for um proof of citizenship, that that's not necessarily the end of the story.
00:18:07
David Levine
In fact, the state of Kansas tried offering a proof of citizenship about a decade ago to voters. And one of the concerns that existed was the ability um not only to actually um weed out those who weren't eligible, for which there were very few, but to also mistakenly sweep up those who were actually eligible to vote.
00:18:30
David Levine
And so Kansas, which is far from being a very liberal or democratic state, ultimately got rid of write their citizenship requirement because they were unnecessarily and mistakenly getting rid of voters who in fact were eligible to vote.
00:18:47
David Levine
um And so you know when you talk about states having the authority to to um require proof of citizenship, that's one piece of this.
00:18:58
David Levine
But there's also a piece about how you ensure you are only removing those that are not eligible, right?
00:19:04
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:19:05
David Levine
And then whether or not you're accidentally sweeping up those who are. And what we've what we found is that from states who have tried this is that they've had trouble doing that. And you know part of that is a matter of making sure you actually have the right tools in place. And so, you know one of the issues even that exists here with the SAVE Act is that Congress has noted, you know, and said that, well, states and the EAC will will work out a solution on how to do this, but the language is vague. And,
00:19:34
David Levine
You know, some could charitably argue that it's vague because they're going to allow states and localities to figure this out because they're the authorities of the EAC. But some could also charitably it could also suggest that part of the reason why Congress is vague about this is because we don't really at this moment have the tools that can ensure that we can accurately engage in this process.
00:19:57
David Levine
Part of the reason why Kansas had difficulty being able to do this and ultimately decided against it. um And this is something that continues to affect states that have gone in this direction, including voters in New Hampshire in a recent election.
00:20:10
Edd
That's really interesting. Yeah. And thank you for that. so It's very good interesting to note that that parts of this has but ah been tried ah in states or tried in in principle.
00:20:20
Edd
And we've seen changes. um Just looking to some some other organisations that raised things around this. Amnesty International has argued that the act could severely affect women in particular.
00:20:33
Edd
and or particularly women who have changed their names through marriage. and How significant do you believe that this concern is? And is it addressed by lawmakers?
00:20:44
David Levine
I think that's a really good question. You know, it it's, it's, I think there's been a lot of conversation, rightfully so, around this provision. um And I think one of the things that's interesting um is that, right again, to some point that was made a moment ago, um there isn't, you know, Congress basically suggests through the State Act that that there's going to be a way in which Congress, that states will be able to sort of figure out a mechanism to deal with this and provide provisions so that individuals can be able to get the documentation that they need in order to be able to vote.
00:21:17
David Levine
um But I think, yeah I think this, you know, ultimately the proof would be in the pudding here, right? How will folks be able to get that documentation? including married women, you know, and, you know, how easy is it to be able to do it? But even before that is how necessary that is.
00:21:35
David Levine
And so I think, you know, we saw in a recent lecture in New Hampshire, again, where there were some married women that came to the polls, right? The information didn't entirely match. And their ability to go back and and and get that documentation appeared to be difficult.
00:21:50
David Levine
And so I think, you know, I think this is something to pay close attention to. I would also add, though, that married women, while an important piece this, are not alone. I mean, us at the University of Maryland, Democracy and Civic Engagement came out with some of the most recent research around proof of citizenship and found that not only could this affect voters that perhaps are perceived as being more left-leaning, but frankly could except could impact voters that are more right-leaning.
00:22:14
David Levine
In many cases, young men, right many of whom voted for President Trump in droves, ah have more difficulty being able to access right and get proof of citizenship in in order to be able to vote.
00:22:24
Edd
Mm.
00:22:25
David Levine
So I want to be really clear that you know this is something that could perhaps affect voters that are perceived as both being more to the left as well as Voters to the right, you know, and and the question I think that that that needs to be thought through here is, again, is this necessary?
Balancing Election Integrity and Voter Rights
00:22:41
David Levine
Do we have an issue of ineligible voters? right, being able to falsely claim US citizenship and being able to so ultimately successfully cast votes, right, and number one. And then number two, even if there are if just a few, right, do we have a narrowly tailored solution that will help ensure that we weed out those voters while not, right, being able to mistakenly disenfranchise others? And and right now, right, we have very minuscule instances of ah voters who are not citizens being able to ultimately be able to participate. And the reasons for that are pretty, pretty logical, right?
00:23:20
David Levine
If you decide as a non-citizen that you want to participate and putting, you know, in a federal election, which you are not allowed to do, You have decided you are creating a paper trip, and then you have ultimately decided that you are going to try and register, which could raise a flag, and then potentially vote, which could raise a flag.
00:23:40
David Levine
And you are then going to cast a vote that could subject you to a fine, potential prison time, and maybe even deportation, all for a vote that is unlikely to make an impact
00:23:46
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:23:51
David Levine
in any election. So the stakes are tremendously high. And what we've seen is that, and I know this is a former election official, is that states and localities have generally today been pretty decent about capturing those folks and ultimately prosecuting them.
00:24:06
David Levine
And that even when these things happen, which are rare, they're often happening by accident. So you take all of that and then you add on this this this sort of notion of of do we have a tool, right, that can ultimately...
00:24:20
David Levine
again, capture voters. and And you have a situation that, right, is a very complicated
00:24:26
Edd
Yeah, that's fascinating. And you talk about disinf fried disenfranchising voters there. and So if the goal of all of this is to improve election integrity, what and what policies or safeguards would you suggest that don't risk disenfranchising the voters?
00:24:45
David Levine
ah You know, I think there are a couple of things that are that are worth noting, right? I mean, and the UK, of course, dealt with this, obviously, when they were thinking about the implementation of sort of voter ID. i think one is you have to be very honest about what the scope of your problem is, right?
00:24:59
David Levine
and And I think if ultimately the scope of the problem is small, then your solution ought to be broad, right?
00:24:59
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:25:06
David Levine
So that you can help ensure that you are Again, enabling people to participate, right, which I think is part of the goal of a healthy democracy. And so, you know, I think that um there are tools that Department of Homeland Security has had and Social Security has to try and help ensure that only eligible voters can vote. And I think states and localities can work together with these federal agencies to try and fine tune, right, those tools so that you can perhaps have a more technical mechanism there.
00:25:37
David Levine
um But until you have that tool, right, that can help you validate who is eligible and who is not, um I think you want to make sure that you're using what you have to be able to sort of, um that's evidence-based, to try and ensure that you're conducting fair elections.
00:25:43
Edd
Yeah.
00:25:53
David Levine
And so, you know, that's making sure that, again, your federal voter registration forms and the state voter registration forms are very clear, right, about who is eligible and not eligible to vote.
00:26:04
David Levine
And I want to be clear about this, right? There are some places that allow non-citizens to vote in local elections, right? So if you're Washington, DC, for example, that allows this, right? It can be a little tricky there. So, you know,
00:26:17
David Levine
Congress could be working together with states and localities and others on how do we make sure that we're clear with voters, particularly non-citizens, about what elections they can vote in and what they can't, right?
00:26:29
David Levine
But I think that's about that's about sort of fine-tuning outreach and being clear with voters about what they're eligible to do and what they're not. That's not about right punishing ah folks or creating a climate of fear when one isn't justified.
00:26:44
David Levine
And so I think you know i think it's it's important to have evidence-based solutions to our problems. um And that means right identifying a potential vulnerability and then having a right-sized solution.
00:26:57
David Levine
So again, we are ensuring that those who are eligible can participate while ensuring that those who are not eligible are not.
00:27:05
Edd
Brilliant, thank you. um Final few questions from me. Does this piece of legislation going through the executive order, ah does this affect election election observation in the USA?
Impact on Election Observation and Future Implications
00:27:18
David Levine
That's a really good question. You know, I may, maybe I have to come on to a different episode to sort of look, look through that to sort of figure that out. But I will say, not to sort of do this, but I would say a couple of things.
00:27:26
Edd
We'll definitely have you back.
00:27:30
David Levine
So one is I'm not aware of any provisions at at this time that that directly get at that issue. But I think a couple of things, you know, raise, raise questions for, for me.
00:27:42
David Levine
Um, you know, number um, um which I think is is really important, is there clearly has, you know, there has been a climate um over the past few months and concern around foreigners, non-citizens participating in the process in numbers that, right, which aren't in fact true.
00:28:03
David Levine
um There's been, you know, concerns previously in the United States over the allowance of a foreign observers, you know, particularly when you perhaps have countries that participate in international organizations where other folks from those countries have perhaps engaged in foreign interference.
00:28:20
David Levine
Think of a country like Russia, which of course is part of the OSCE, but has also had affiliated actors that tried to interfere and in the U.S.
00:28:22
Edd
Mm-hmm.
00:28:28
David Levine
elections as well as previous elections in a whole host of other countries, including U.K. um And so, you know, one of the concerns that I think exists here um is whether, know, this executive order, perhaps the SAVE Act could could whip up nativism um that could perhaps raise some concerns um right that that that creates some further headwinds for international observers.
00:28:51
David Levine
I think that's sort of you know one one one piece of this. um I think you know the second thing that's worth noting is that while um the U.S. Department of State has traditionally right you know sent a letter allowing for international observers, as democracy volunteers and others know, ultimately election observation um is allowed from state to state, as well as, by the way, from from from locality to locality. And I think You know, that remains true here. And so in the same way that, you know, when the president, any president, Republican or Democrat, tries to legislate on elections, right, um in a significant way, right, the president doesn't really have a lot of power there. So, you know, um I think, you know.
00:29:34
David Levine
they can make lots of statements with their preferences, but ultimately I think that election observation, like the administration elections will continue to fall, right? Those decisions to States and localities.
00:29:45
David Levine
um You know, but, but, but one of the things I think that will be interesting to sort of see is that, you know, if your elections administrators and you are trying, for example, you know, let's say you, you suddenly feel like you need to follow the president's directive and his executive order around suddenly procuring a new piece of voting equipment.
00:30:03
David Levine
Um, that would be a very difficult feat to do um in terms of the funding. It would be a very fit difficult feat to do in perhaps if you wanted to comply with the Voluntary Voting System Guidelines 2.0.
00:30:15
David Levine
um And if you were doing that shortly ahead of an election, um that would provide present perhaps perhaps a number of challenges, not only for those election officials, but for observers, right, um ah who who are then trying to observe ah write a new piece of equipment um with election officials who are less familiar with it. So I think there are a number of indirect um possibilities here, but I think, um again, that election observation remains in the U.S., primarily in the domain of states,
00:30:44
David Levine
um states and in some cases localities, and and unless something drastic were to happen, that is likely to remain going forward.
00:30:53
Edd
Really good, no, thank you. Final question that our viewers will no doubt be asking, what happens next? Where does this go?
00:31:03
David Levine
No, I think that's a really good question. and And I think it actually goes to, you know, i perhaps I've raised in this podcast a number of potential concerns with the executive order. You know, I think there this allows to talk about, you know, a number of things. I mean, one,
00:31:15
David Levine
It's worth noting that there are aspects of this executive order that are likely, at least a few, carry forward, right? Any administration gets to come in. um A new administration comes in and gets to prioritize its enforcement, right, of federal statutes. And so I certainly expect um that insofar as this executive order talks about sort of prioritization of certain federal statutes that that the, you know, the Justice Department will will prioritize, right?
00:31:43
David Levine
The enforcement of certain federal laws and not others. And I think it's worth noting, for example, that the White House calls, for for example, the Department of Homeland Security to do reports on voting system security.
00:31:54
David Levine
What's interesting, of course, is that the Department of Homeland Security has been doing that to a certain extent. ah and that the Department of Homeland Security, notably CISA, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, has been gutted by the administration over the past few months. So there's a policy question about how well they'll be able to do it in light of a number of election officials that have departed.
00:32:14
David Levine
But there's certainly the authority to do that. And if, you know, I would i would expect them to be able to continue doing that. um But I think a lot of this is going to depend on, at the end of the day, right, the litigation that's sort of ongoing here. We know that the Election Assistance Commission has reached out to some states about how to implement right pieces of this.
00:32:34
David Levine
And ultimately, i think you know that sort of remains to be seen. right We know, for example, that if the EAC, c which is, of course, a bipartisan independent agency that derives its power from Congress through the Help America Vote Act, if they decided that they wanted to take the president's suggestion, right because it's not, the president can say what they want about the EAC, but they They don't. it's The EAC is an independent agency, gets its power from Congress. Let's say, you know, the EAC says, you know, states, you're going get your new voting system. You're going to get rid decertify your old systems and certify new ones to VVSG 2.0.
00:33:12
David Levine
um A couple of things that are worth noting. One. These are voluntary voting system guidelines, right? So they're not compelled to do this. Now, there are a handful of states that have said in state law that they're going to require and follow these guidelines. And that's because the EAC has some technical expertise and has been pretty decent on this up to this point.
00:33:32
David Levine
But states, if they felt right that suddenly they were being asked to comply with guidance to procure new voting systems in a short period of time, and they don't have the money for it, could probably simply decide, you know...
00:33:48
David Levine
I don't think this is the this isn't what I signed up for. or We're going to go our own direction. And so, again, i think that's a long way of saying that, you know, some of this depends on how courts rule.
00:34:00
David Levine
And some of this depends on, again, what agencies that are being tasked through this executive order, like the EAC, as well as states decide that they want to do in light of this language. um In terms of what happens with Congress and the SAVE Act,
00:34:13
David Levine
you know, again, some of that I think is going to be a function of number one, whether this legislation goes through. And I would, I want to underscore that I think part of the reason why this executive order moved forward, right. In spite of this legislation going forward. And we talked about why that's a legal potential issue is that the white house and others recognize that it's this legislation probably won't go through the Senate.
00:34:35
David Levine
It probably doesn't have the support. So, um, You know, I think that the folks' attention is rightfully focused a little more on the executive order. um And again, i expect a lot of litigation here.
00:34:46
David Levine
And I think the question that I think we'll be looking toward is is a lot of what's in here, which I think in many cases are potential overreaches for the executive. Will it get adopted in any way, shape or form by the federal agencies and certain local state and local election authorities?
00:35:02
David Levine
And I think that will ultimately drive what we see happen over the next weeks, months and perhaps years.
00:35:09
Edd
Fantastic. I mean, David, this has all been so fascinating.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:35:13
Edd
know all our listeners will have really enjoyed that and hopefully we'll get to catch up with you again the near future on another episode. Absolutely. As you said, there's lots to unpack there.
00:35:22
Edd
So thank you ever so much to David who has joined us for today's episode. And we hope that you will join us again next week when we'll be launching our next podcast.
00:35:33
Edd
Thank you ever so much for having us.