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Local Democracy: Are Elected Mayors the Solution?
25 Plays1 month ago
Jonathan Carr-West is interviewed by Alex Iszatt about the future of local democracy. Do elected mayors offer greater accountability, greater local identity, and greater understanding of the issues that face local communities? 2025 saw a number of elections postponed as those areas were in discussion to develop plans for unitary councils or directly elected mayors.
Dr Jonathan Carr-West has been Chief Executive of LGIU (Local Government Information Unit) since February 2013 where he leads on all aspects of the think tank’s policy, membership and influencing work. With over 15 years’ experience, Jonathan is a leading national expert on local government transformation, local democracy and public services. Some of his particular interests are in participative democracy, the evolving nature of public services and devolution.
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Transcript
Introduction and Objective of the Discussion
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, welcome to the Observations podcast. I'm Alex Isat. Now, this month's local elections happened against a turmoil of distrust in local politics.
00:00:18
Speaker
But with one exception, the LGIU's pre-election poll found 43% of people believe directly elected mayors give their area a stronger voice compared to just 16% who don't.
00:00:32
Speaker
Now, are mayors really the key to rebuilding trust or are they just a sticking plaster? Now, here to unpack this is Jonathan Carr-West.
Global and Local Trust Trends
00:00:40
Speaker
He's the CEO of Local Government Information Unit whose team research exposed this paradox.
00:00:46
Speaker
So, Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me. Now, let's start with your poll. So, the elections obviously have happened now. Were you surprised at any of the results? I have to say I wasn't hugely surprised by the results because we've been doing these polls for a number of years. And what we've seen is a steady decline in trust in political
Public Perception of Local Government
00:01:09
Speaker
institutions. And that's reinforced by lots of research and lots of data from around the world, which similarly shows this sort of emerging crisis in trust.
00:01:19
Speaker
What we found, though, is that that looks slightly better at local level. So if you ask people, you know, so firstly, people recognise the value of local government. So a majority of people think that the council, their local council, is the institution that makes the biggest difference to quality of life in their area.
00:01:39
Speaker
When you ask people if they understand how decisions are made within that council, what the role of elected councillors is, most people don't. six out of ten don't really understand When you focus in on trust,
00:01:52
Speaker
Only about one in four people trust UK government, MPs, central politicians, to act in the best interests of their local area.
Voter Turnout and Public Engagement
00:02:00
Speaker
But trust in local government is a bit higher.
00:02:04
Speaker
So it's about just over 40% of people trust local government to act in the best interest of their area. Now, you could take a glass half full or a glass half empty approach to that. That's still a minority of people.
00:02:16
Speaker
That still pi means most people don't trust that that institution is going to act in their interest. But it is a far better rating than any other institution gets. So our argument is that if we want to rebuild trust in local democracy, or in democracy more generally, you have to start with the local.
00:02:36
Speaker
Absolutely. And do you think then that's 40%, half full, half empty? that's where the lethargy comes when people are actually not even going to the polling
Government Devolution and Public Confusion
00:02:44
Speaker
booths. We're still seeing that there is a real difference between people's opinions on social media and so actually them turning up.
00:02:53
Speaker
That's right. I mean, we've just had local elections in England, um not in very many places, mainly in county councils. We're still waiting final turnout figures ah for that. But early indications are that they're pretty low, around 30 percent.
00:03:10
Speaker
That's... We normally get 30 something percent for for local elections compared to low 60 something percent for for national elections. So it is a problem.
00:03:22
Speaker
people People's lack of engagement, people's, I don't want to use the word apathy because I don't think it is apathy. i think people care very deeply. about the quality of public services in their local area. They care very deeply about their neighbourhoods.
00:03:37
Speaker
But that doesn't translate into voting behaviour. People don't because they don't understand and they don't trust political institutions. So they' their passion for their local area, which many, many people have, doesn't translate into voting in local elections.
00:03:54
Speaker
And of course, you know not everyone did have ah the chance to vote as well at this election.
Reorganization of Local Government
00:03:58
Speaker
you We have and some councils that are trying to be unified and there's devolution. And I noticed in with your poll as well that people are a bit confused about exactly what's going on. And do you think that there is something that we can do to try and rebuild this as well?
00:04:15
Speaker
and Devolution, unitary authorities. There are so many words that are thrown about. Yeah. Yeah. And look, it it is a confusing picture. So the government brought out their devolution white paper just before Christmas.
00:04:28
Speaker
That sets out two objectives. One is to roll out mayoral devolution. So people will be familiar with the Greater Manchester model where you have a combined authority. and Andy Burnham is the elected mayor of Greater Manchester.
00:04:42
Speaker
ah Ben Houchen is the um elected mayor of the Tees Valley. you know Government wants that to exist everywhere in England.
Accountability and Trust in Elected Mayors
00:04:50
Speaker
No devolution islands is their is their phrase. So we're going to have that model with a directly elected mayor absolutely everywhere.
00:04:58
Speaker
At the same time, local the government wants to reorganise two-tier local government. So listeners who live in in a major city, this won't mean that much to them They will just have one council that does everything. But across much of rural England, we still have a system where you have a county council ah that delivers some of the big expensive services like adult social care, children's services, some highways and stuff.
00:05:25
Speaker
and then you have a district council which delivers uh more local services know planning waste collection housing etc so you know you might live in essex and you would have essex county council and braintree district council the government's plan is to get rid of both county councils and district councils and create new unitary authority across the country so that everyone will just have a single council.
00:05:52
Speaker
Now, that is a complicated process and it sits alongside devolution. So you will have a mayor of Essex, but it's it's a separate process, a separate but related process.
Transparency in Governance
00:06:04
Speaker
Are people aware of this? Inevitably, of course they're not because we haven't done a very good job at explaining it. And there's very mixed views on this. People don't have strong views about whether this is a good thing or not.
00:06:18
Speaker
Of course, you know you in your poll, you say that those places that do have mayors are saying it is a good thing. So, um of course, like that mixture of having that confusion about how it's going to affect people, how a unitary authority might affect you, compared to the poll which suggests that having a mayor is positive, those um those two things potentially could end up bringing trust back to local government. What are your thoughts on...
00:06:44
Speaker
having every mayor having its own process, funding, that could also get quite complicated and sticky. Right. So, of course, there's two things going on here. So having a unitary council and having a mayor are different, and they'll be on different geography.
00:07:01
Speaker
We do find when we poll people who about elected mayors that people generally approve of it. They like the idea. they There's a simplicity about it. There's an accountability about it. And they think about 40% of people um ah most people, by the way, are undecided, but about 40% of people say, actually, this also gives us real voice to Westminster. This enables our on our place to sort of have a voice and to be represented. And I think we've seen that with mayors like Andy Burnham,
00:07:31
Speaker
or Ben Houchen or Steve Rotherham in the Liverpool city region, they have been really effective at putting those places on the map and fighting for investment, making the case to to central government about how those areas ah should should should go forward. So people recognise that.
00:07:49
Speaker
Does it rebuild trust? I think that's harder to say. It doesn't, by the way, rebuild voting patterns. for I mean, turnout in mayoral elections is still around the 30% mark. So again, people like the idea.
00:08:02
Speaker
but it's not reflected in in turnout of the polls. In terms of unitary councils, very little evidence, people are ah pretty mixed, people don't have strong views on this.
00:08:13
Speaker
I think the point I would make is that if we want this to be part of a trust rebuilding exercise, we have to take people with with us.
Challenges in Mayoral Effectiveness
00:08:21
Speaker
So I would say that our polling shows that people are open to these ideas, but they don't understand very much about it.
00:08:28
Speaker
What we know from previous government reforms is that when people feel they have had things done to them that that haven't been explained to them, that they haven't been consulted on, that can have a negative effect on trust.
00:08:41
Speaker
So I think both reorganisation and mayors can be part of a trust rebuilding exercise, but it's not really about the destination, having those things or not. It's about how you go about the process.
00:08:53
Speaker
That's what's going to make a difference in terms of trust. but Absolutely. And as you mentioned, this turnout for mayoral elections also is still quite low. So it is building that. There are still some disconnects.
00:09:04
Speaker
You talked about um and Manchester, but also you know with London is a huge area. Sadiq Khan has obviously been the mayor for quite a while and there is ah quite a lot of... frustration, shall we say, um about some of the behaviours that he has done, especially when it comes to Greenbelt, as an example from a couple of weeks back.
00:09:23
Speaker
So
Electoral Dynamics and Local Control
00:09:24
Speaker
people may be looking at these and Andy Burnham, Sadiq Khan and thinking, is not really working in those huge places? Is it going to work, for say, somewhere like Teesside?
00:09:34
Speaker
Well, I think...
00:09:38
Speaker
So this is interesting. So in a lot of parts of the country, one and this is largely forgotten now, there were referenda in 2012 about whether they wanted elected mayors for the local authority.
00:09:49
Speaker
And that included places like Manchester. And most places said no, with a few exceptions. Bristol said they wanted one, for example. Most places said no. the George Osborne then introduced combined authority mayors 2014, only two years later anyway.
00:10:05
Speaker
I think the evidence in as far as it exists is that people in Manchester would not want to go back, that they do see the value ah of a mayor. And I think in the end, what politicians would argue is that you're only as good as your last your last election.
00:10:20
Speaker
And both Sadiq Khan and Andy Burnham were were re-elected pretty recently with with pretty big majorities. So I think they would say, look, actually, the proof is in the pudding that we implement things, in some cases, quite controversial things like Sadiq Khan extending ah the ultra-low emission zone, hugely controversial, lots of noise about it.
00:10:40
Speaker
That did not translate into votes against. He still won the election quite comfortably. So you also have to look at, you know in the end, what what does the poll what does the you know we can talk about polling, we can talk about focus groups, we can talk about about sort of what the the sort of public discourse, but in the end,
Political Volatility and Multi-Party Landscape
00:10:59
Speaker
politicians are judged on elections.
00:11:09
Speaker
you
00:11:12
Speaker
We're looking at reform. Obviously, that is a party that has come out quite a lot in the last election. And they did win some of the mayoral races and they did campaign on local control.
00:11:24
Speaker
um And that is something that seems to be what they're still pushing now. and Obviously, ah we're looking forward, talking about this local control. the pole Your poll suggested as well that people do want more to happen in their local areas.
00:11:40
Speaker
Do you think we've still got quite a while now until the next elections and looking forward, what do you think that people really want to see change? How do you feel that we are going to be moving forward?
00:11:53
Speaker
Well, so Reform won two mayoralties at the beginning of May um in Hull and East Yorkshire and in Greater Lincolnshire.
00:12:04
Speaker
um They also took control of 10 councils, yeah including Yeah, mainly from the Conservatives, but also previously Labour-controlled Doncaster. So some big councils, Lincolnshire, Staffordshire, Kent, County Durham, these are all now, know, have clear majority control from from reform.
Challenges for New Councils
00:12:23
Speaker
it's It's not a very adequate answer, but it's a bit early to tell what that looks like. They didn't, you know, sort of reforms position on some of the issues we've been talking about. Local government reorganisation, for example, it is not yet clear.
00:12:39
Speaker
So there will be a process. and And actually, this isn't just about reform. This is about councils changing control. So inevitably, there is a process where people come in to leadership positions in in councils, whether they're whether they're reform or conservatives or liberal Democrats, liberal Democrats took control of Shropshire, Oxfordshire, for example.
00:12:59
Speaker
There's a learning curve. you know These are complex organisations. They're spending, you know they have billion pound budgets. They're delivering services like adult social care, like child protection services that are literally life and issues of life and death.
00:13:14
Speaker
And there is a learning curve where people come in and have to learn how to sort of manage those organisations what their aspirations are for them and how how to achieve that. So we're we're at very early stages in that.
00:13:27
Speaker
One factor that we do look look to looking forward, though, is the elections that didn't happen. What I sometimes call this of electoral dark matter this year, of all those places that are in the devolution programme where elections were postponed this year. So places like Essex or Surrey that should have had elections and didn't,
00:13:47
Speaker
They will be having mayoral elections next year, that is going to be a key test, I think, of whether the reform have cemented that. yeah They've made this huge progress, and 600-plus councillors, 10 councils from basically two mayors from a zero start. So that is you know that is a pretty seismic event.
00:14:09
Speaker
We will see next year whether they're able to sort of build on that, capitalise on it, and push on to to further electoral success. One thing i should we should point out is that
Impact of National Politics on Local Elections
00:14:19
Speaker
yeah just as in the last general election, Labour won a landslide in terms of ah parliamentary seats off quite a narrow vote share.
00:14:28
Speaker
The same is true this time around. So actually the vote share between the main parties, Labour and the Conservatives have historically low vote share, but the vote share between the Liberal Democrats, ah Reform Labour, Conservatives, it's relatively narrow. So you don't need, in a first-past-the-post system, fairly small changes can result in very, very big changes in outcome.
00:14:53
Speaker
So there's still, ah for all of the parties, there's still a lot to play for. We don't live in a world anymore where ah sort of landslide in one election guarantees you, virtually guarantees you, that you're going perform well in the next. Things are very volatile and very very changeable. First past the post as a system is very predictable when you have two big parties. When you have five parties, including the Greens as well, all with sort of 20-ish percent vote share, then it starts to throw up really quite unpredictable results.
00:15:27
Speaker
Well, and you're rightly to say that it is volatile situation generally as well. with When it comes to politics every day, we're seeing something new coming out because obviously Labour is also new and taking control. So do you think that might also change and swing? We've got a year to wait for these mayoral elections in some places.
00:15:46
Speaker
So do you think it will depend on what Labour is pushing as ah as the government as to what we will see on more of a local level? I think, you know, i would I always make the case that Local elections are not an opinion poll. They're real elections that have real consequences. But of course, it would be quixotic to say that national politics doesn't influence how people vote in local elections. Of course it does. And actually, the sort of mixture of people's view of national politics, their concern about local issues, it's really complicated.
00:16:18
Speaker
And people, you know, people, I think, don't, when we go into the ballot box, we don't always know ourselves that's exactly what the mixture of that is. Both things matter.
Importance of Public Engagement in Democracy
00:16:28
Speaker
So what Labour does in government nationally will of course over the next year will, of course, impact on those elections.
00:16:35
Speaker
But so too will the delivery of of local politicians in the run-up to that of those elections. Some of those mayoral candidates will be people who have led county councils.
00:16:45
Speaker
yeah They will be judged on that record. People will be looking at, you know does it feel like this place is going in the right direction? Do I feel yeah it safe and secure in my neighbourhood? Do my children have good schools to go to? Are there homes for young people? what's my yeah Is my high street prospering? Are the potholes being mended?
00:17:04
Speaker
All of those things, let alone you know is my elderly grandmother being looked after properly? you know Are children with special needs being being adequately catered for?
00:17:16
Speaker
All of those things will play in to how people vote in mayoral elections and local elections. and you And people aren't very I think you can't reasonably expect people to be really kind of ah across, well, what powers does the mayor have and what's what's the responsibility of the council?
00:17:33
Speaker
People will vote according to their sense of are things going going in the right direction? or Then looking ahead for next year, what do you want from LGIU's perspective, what do you want to see for moving forward to help people understand processes that happening for mayoral, for devolution, for all of their councils?
00:17:52
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think we, as always, we would like to see high quality public debate about, you know, more public information, more consultation the public about what
The Role of Representative Democracy
00:18:02
Speaker
are these changes, who is going to be responsible for what, ah you know, in the new in this new world, what are mayors actually going to do, what geography they're going to do it over, how are they going to interrelate with the health service or other bits of the public sector?
00:18:17
Speaker
And, yeah, so a high debate. And in the end, what I would like to see most of all is people coming out and voting. You know, we get the politicians we vote for and people are people are quick to complain. And I understand why people feel it doesn't make any difference. But one of the things we saw in in this election, look, the Runkhorn by-election was decided by less than less than, by single figures of votes.
00:18:40
Speaker
So, you know, if anyone ever thought, oh, it doesn't matter whether I turn out or not, it does matter. And, You know, people looking at the information that's out there, making up their own minds, taking a view, voting.
00:18:53
Speaker
that' that At the end of the day that's what matters. and And I think it's really important because democracy is a process, not an outcome. and and And what matters is how far we engage with with the process. not And actually, that's more important than what the results are.
00:19:09
Speaker
ah Sadly, though, that does ask for people to take responsibility of what's going on in their own ah backyard. And occasionally is doesn't happen you know they want to make those changes they want to see change as you said you know they're seeing what's happening on the ground level but it's also people you know and that's uh taking that forward no that's right and and look we go back to the beginning of the conversation this is all happening in the context of a big decline in trust in political institutions but and there's all sorts of reasons for that but we have to remember still the representative democracy
00:19:43
Speaker
is one of the best mechanisms, if not the best mechanism for prosperity, for freedom, for, you know, self-actual, for communities to fu fulfill their aspirations and have their needs met. So it's really important that, you despite our disillusionment, that we don't throw the,
00:20:00
Speaker
the sort of democratic baby out with the institutional bathwater, you know, there are institutional virtues, representation, accountability, the ability to hold the ring between competing interests, not just bowing to who shouts loudest, but really making sure that all parts of the community are considered.
00:20:17
Speaker
These are achieved through those representative systems of democracy, whether that's the local council or whether that's the mayor or whether that's parliament. And and we we need to...
00:20:29
Speaker
You're in a world in which those things sometimes feel a bit quaint and us are sort
Conclusion and Role of Democracy Volunteers
00:20:33
Speaker
overcome by events. and We see polarisation and it's really important that we keep making the argument that that matters, that representation, that democratic institutions are fundamental to our quality of life.
00:20:47
Speaker
And we will also be ensuring that all of the reports that have come out from you guys are also heard as well, because it's important to know what the public generally are also thinking and feeling as we move ahead. Well, thank you so much, though, for joining me today. i really appreciate your insights.
00:21:03
Speaker
And yeah, let's ah let's move forward and get people out there voting. Thank you. Thank you.
00:21:18
Speaker
The Observations podcast has been brought to you by Democracy Volunteers, the UK's leading election observation group. Democracy Volunteers is non-partisan and does not necessarily share the opinions of participants in the podcast.
00:21:32
Speaker
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