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Kinky Boots- Maroon Is Not Sexy
26 Plays12 days ago
Get ready for FASHION, get ready for GLAM, get ready for vaguely CONSERVATIVE STREETWEAR. This movie may have been a lot of people's introduction to drag, and hopefully we've all come a long way since then. Come learn about what it means to make BOOTS.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434124/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_kinky
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview of Hot Set
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hey, it's us again, your friendly neighborhood costumers. In this episode, we are here to talk about kinky boots. um And I will very quickly read a summary so that I can at least seem like I'm on track before I go off track. um Just based on the two hours that we spent chatting previous. There is no such thing as a straight line in conversation. Oh, that.
00:00:45
Speaker
Everywhere. Okay. I'm going to read... no there's a one sentence summary on hold on there's a one sentence summary on IMDb and then there's two more that are very long that I'm choosing not to read because they are from visitors, I think, to the site. And they are pretty hard hitters.
Movie Summary and Initial Thoughts on Kinky Boots
00:01:08
Speaker
It's like the term greedy fiancé. Oh my. Okay. The first summary on IMDb for Kinky Boots. A drag queen comes to the rescue of a man who, after inheriting his father's shoe factory, needs to diversify his product if he wants to keep the business afloat. Boom.
00:01:28
Speaker
Right to the heart of it. And Out. Fact. Done. People. Location. Binnie.
00:01:35
Speaker
ah I also want to jump in really quick to the fact that this movie is costume designed by Sammy Sheldon, who's... Sorry, Sammy Sheldon Differ, whose career...
00:01:47
Speaker
A lot of us know. oh yeah. and I did not realize. But oh, my goodness, just to name a few. Jurassic World Rebirth, Kraven the Hunter, A Haunting in Venice, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Quantumania, Eternals. Yeah. artemis fowl jurassic part jurassic world fallen kingdom or fallen yeah fallen kingdom i can read i'm doing great um skipping down to like 2008 hellboy to the golden army my god 2005 for vendetta 2007 stardust yeah and that's after kinky boots which is 2005 before kinky boots the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy oh the merchant of venice Like a fairy story from 2002. A little short. That's
Personal Experiences and Interest in Shoemaking
00:02:36
Speaker
very sweet. um
00:02:38
Speaker
Black Hawk Down looks like it was her first oh my movie. Wow. She really pivoted away from Black Hawk Down quickly. like I mean, she did X-Men First Class, Ghost Recon Alpha, Kick-Ass 2, Ex Machina, Ant-Man, Assassin's Creed. This is insane. The action, the comics, like it's crazy. The fantasy. The variety fantasy is pretty crazy. Yeah. So like, this is wild. Like, hello. Hello.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah. Hi. Hello. Hello. um Yeah. So I have seen this before, but the only other time I watched it was on an airplane. And you know how airplane movies go. Either you are traumatizing yourself and you are 100% focused and like sobbing or You're taking it as part of the vacation. you nut yeah It's vacation brain. You're very lightly watching it. And so I knew the story, but I didn't watch it with a lot of focus the first time. Have you seen it since before this? I have never seen the movie before. um i've seen the stage production ah on Broadway day a couple times and um had the fortune of doing a brief internship with the costume designer for the Broadway production. So I've been backstage and seen the wardrobe ah like
00:04:06
Speaker
seen like all of the wardrobe for Kiki Boots. And I've also been in the back rooms of the cobbler that made a lot of the custom boots for the Broadway production and watched a lot of sort of grumpy old Italian men making shoes on machines that look quite similar to the factory machines in this movie. Yeah.
00:04:33
Speaker
How did you ever have an interest fleeting or otherwise in trying to learn how to make shoes? I mean, it wasn't ever something that I thought about until I was literally in a cobbler shop and watching people make shoes. Yeah. um But I didn't I've never done anything to like pursue that. i would say it was more just like a realization of the amount of like specialized shoes.
Complexity of Shoemaking and Cultural Context
00:05:04
Speaker
craftsmanship skill that's needed but no I have never made any moves to make a pair of shoes um yeah same yeah there was like a brief moment where I was interested in learning how to make a very specific shoe um because it was medieval and pre-medieval even so it was like not that
00:05:26
Speaker
complicated a construction. Yeah. um And I remember talking to an instructor that we've shared in the past and she had taught Ms. Marianne, sorry, she had taught once a cobbler class. Aha. Because um where we both went to school, um one of the places we both went to school, the place that we both went.
00:05:52
Speaker
so A place where our education overlapped. Intercepted, yes. They offer tailoring, corsetry, draping, um just a couple like specialized millinery. So those are the four like specialized things that they offer. But there was one time that they offered cobblering.
00:06:11
Speaker
Wow. Cobblery. Cobbling. Cobbling. Thank And her – because she loves shoes. And she was like, oh it was terrible. Oh, no.
00:06:22
Speaker
And it's not because it was – it was just – You can't necessarily teach all of that in one semester. Yeah. And so it just wasn't enough time. And so I'm sure that everybody who took that class learned a lot, but they just didn't have the time to finish the realized product. Yeah. And so – I've always just like remembered that and just really respected how much work goes into it. And um really wanted to highlight that because in the movie, when they're like under the gun to make some shoes, they're talking about like the lead time that they have. And if you don't, if you make other things and you don't make shoes, you would hear that time and go, wait, you're only making this amount of shoes. Why would it take that long? Yeah.
00:07:15
Speaker
Because it's a very work intensive. And especially when you're working with things like leather, you have to shape it. And like it has to learn the shape that it needs to be in. There's so much that I can't even tell you because I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. i don't know enough about it. But yeah, there and there's so many specialized little materials. And like it's it's like ah I would say it's it's like any sort of intense craft where the process is.
00:07:44
Speaker
has to happen in a certain order with certain tools, with certain materials, and you can't speed that up like it takes how long it takes when you're designing something i feel like you just like when you're sewing you need a twall like you need a first draft yeah to make sure and especially a shoe a shoe that's being designed for drag queens um i would assume that you would need to test it so that it would be safe like for weight bearing and not harming anybody's foot or back or hips Right. Especially like the the factory in this movie at the beginning is making like very old school classic men's dress shoes. Brogues, you will. Brown leather like men's dress shoes. So to then pivot into... making high heels to making these like really um flamboyant like styles where you're like have different leathers like mixed together different style lines like every boot is like different has like different stuff going on you're not going to have it be perfect the first time especially as we see in the movie charlie's first pair of boots that he makes have nothing to do with the boots at the end of the movie. yeah my God. so like the, the synopsis is correct. This is about someone who has inherited against his will, um his father's shoe factory.
00:09:18
Speaker
And he just doesn't care about shoes. Like they're just not his world, which I get like you, you want, sometimes you want to move away from what your family does because you want to do your own thing. And that's what this character is. But he doesn't know what his own thing is.
00:09:34
Speaker
And he's called back after his father dies. And like Melinda said, brogues are what they designed. Traditional men's shoes. um But there's not a demand for them anymore. And so they're not making ends meet. They're not...
00:09:48
Speaker
just not doing well. And he has to lay off a bunch of people and he feels like garbage for doing it. Meanwhile, his girlfriend is like, well, we can finally dump this factory and go with a real life amongst real people.
00:10:04
Speaker
And like this is in the north of England, right? Is that where it's like located? i think at one point there's a there's an argument about because they're in Northampton. yeah And there's an argument about whether that is actually considered the north or the Midlands. And I simply don't know enough about the personal feelings about geography in the UK that local residents have to know if that is true. All I know that based on the context clues that I'm being given from this movie and this story is that this is an industrial area. Yeah. And so like industrial as in. Factory. The factories. Yeah. And like the the jobs that are available are pretty just like straightforward
00:10:49
Speaker
Assembly. Assembly. And not, you know, I'm going to art school and I'm going to live my dream as a glitter-fied dragon. Like, it's just – Nope. You're going to work and you're living. And the way that that's displayed, we'll talk about through costume for sure. um But Charlie's girlfriend has different dreams than his and then he – meets this drag queen who he attempts to save from being harassed at night and it goes very poorly um guess what she's fine she's fine she can handle herself and she takes him back to like is it her flat or to the club that she's working at
00:11:29
Speaker
I think it's the the club. i think Yeah, because he watches own Yeah, he watches
Character Dynamics and Themes in Kinky Boots
00:11:34
Speaker
the show. um very It's a very homey dressing room backstage area. So it feels like you're at someone's home. And so they get to know each other and he's constantly fighting with his – what's the word that I'm looking for? ah Intolerances and ignorances basically. um Throughout the movie, like he's not an evil person, but he's just like, don't let people know, you know, like he's like embarrassed. He's fighting with his own like homophobia yeah and like transphobia, even though the ah the movie is from 2005. The terminology that is used in the movie is not terminology
00:12:12
Speaker
that we would want to be using now, but it was terminology that people were using at the time. And so we don't necessarily need to you know perpetrate it but there's a lot of words that are said in this movie and it's very much illustrating yeah this kind of like oh well we don't have any of that here kind of vibe right which is like crazy patently untrue and so there are people of all sorts everywhere um But they form a relationship and then through the voice of a worker that Charlie has let go and then calls back and then he calls back basically every employee that he let go because he's trying to revitalize this factory. They realize that they actually have a niche market in drag and in larger bodies.
00:13:06
Speaker
potentially more masculine bodies needing these shoes that are like stilettos and thigh highs and all of these things that they will pay for and that they will care for and that they will collect because they're performers or it's just like a preference. And um so the goal is to be able to make enough sample shoes to have a show, to be a part of a show in Milan and get buyers and then revitalize their factory.
00:13:33
Speaker
And the movie says that this is based on a true story. Did zero research. Same. that No idea. yeah So can't can't speak to that. But what I love about this movie is that it's like a slice of life movie. And so there are two worlds basically that we see.
00:13:51
Speaker
One is... the kind of a little bit through like Charlie's POV, right? a dreary, regular world. Yeah, working class, blue collar.
00:14:04
Speaker
In a town that is experiencing like an overall like economic downturn because of the shift in manufacturing from places in England to like importing Shoes and clothes from international like countries where things are like cheap and like cheaply made, essentially. ah Sound familiar? and um And I do think it is kind of an interesting way that like the factory like ethos of like creating these really high quality... men's shoes that will last a lifetime um kind of dovetails into this idea of like creating these like really like sturdy um stiletto like heels for drag performers that like that level of craftsmanship and quality is like the intersection between the two different types of shoes which I enjoy and felt like
00:15:08
Speaker
I don't know. I felt like that could have even been highlighted maybe like a little bit more. This like intersection of beautiful footwear, if you will, and practical footwear um is really called into question in one of my favorite outfits that Lola wears, um which is this like gorgeous blue number. I just like love it with matching blue shoes. Yeah.
00:15:36
Speaker
But Charlie is like, okay, I'm going to make you shoes because he identifies this issue. He and someone else have both identified this issue. And he's like, okay, well, I know men's shoes. So he makes this thigh high that I feel like was really available in the 90s. Maybe not the thigh highness of it, but the type of heel, which is like a chonky block heel. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a very conservative angle, the shoe. Quite low. It's a very low lifted shoe and that's it. And it's burgundy, oh think. Disgusting. So Charlie is like, well, this daring from like a men's shoes perspective, right? Right. Like it's lifted more than it would be a men's shoe. There's a little bit more of an angle on the heel. And burgundy. Who would wear that in men's shoes, dear Lord? And it's like a suede, i think. it
00:16:32
Speaker
It is a suede. I'm looking at the picture on IMDb and Chiwetel Ejiofor's face as Lola is so great. Just like offended. And especially because she's coming there because Charlie asked her not to.
00:16:46
Speaker
because Charlie wants to hide her. And she's like, I generally do what people, the opposite of what people tell me to do. So she's gorgeous and comes in and is like picking up these shoes and she's like, this is disgusting. And she's not wrong. She's like 100% correct. Yes. It's like I could see someone but who is a fall risk potentially wearing this. And I say that as someone who has been labeled in the past couple of months as fall
Costume Design and Character Transformation
00:17:15
Speaker
risk.
00:17:16
Speaker
Literally had a wristband that said fall risk. And I laughed when the nurse put that on shoulder. But ah like she's just horrified by this because she's like, did you not see what's on my feet right now? And she educates Charlie and he has to like...
00:17:35
Speaker
absorb what she's saying that she's basically saying what the lines are is like the sex is in the heel yes and the sex appeal is what these shoes are are for I I had to look it up because I was like I'm pretty sure there's a song in the musical ah that is this moment yeah so there is a song in the musical that is called the sex is in the heels So like they did. And I will, I just want to shout out that all the music and the musical was written by Cindy Lauper. So it's cool so fun. It's so fun.
00:18:08
Speaker
i love that. And so what I get, I like started yelling at the TV screen because I was like, I just want somebody to talk about things that like we talk about in a costume shop or when we're as designers designing for characters, right? Like we have to provide renderings. which is the image that you draw or that you generate, um through like Photoshop collage, whatever your chosen art form is. Some people do it digitally. Some people do it manually.
00:18:36
Speaker
Um, of a character and it also serves as a breakdown of what they're wearing. I'm sure we've like gone into depth about this before on previous episodes. but I hope so. Good luck of going back and trying to find that. um But yeah, a rendering is an image that communicates from the designer and director's agreed direction for a character to the costume shop and any other manufacturers.
00:19:01
Speaker
what is needed. And the information that's in there is like texture, angles, like hello silhouette. What's the word that I'm thinking of? um Size.
00:19:13
Speaker
Proportion. Proportion. Thank you. My God, my brain. um But like all of these things are a part of it, color, everything. And so if you have a character that you want to be like dowdy or practical, you're probably not going to put them in a stiletto. But if you want somebody adventurous, fun, flirty, whatever kind of adjective you want to choose,
00:19:31
Speaker
Maybe you'll put them in a higher heel or something, right? Just like to communicate a different thing. this This boot, this sample boot that he makes is the perfect way of saying like we can say all the same words and be talking about completely different things. Because you could say you could say red suede thigh high high heeled boot And you could be talking about this sample boot or you could be talking about the boots at the end. Well, they're not suede, but like the boots at the end of the show, which are stunning and sexy and gorgeous. And like this if you don't have the visual, you can say all of those words and they could be either shoe. Yes. But you don't want this. And especially when you're working off of the information that Lola was bemoaning in the beginning, which is. Yes. The size is an issue, being able to find shoes that are big enough, but also that are strong enough to carry her weight for her frame. And so and to carry her through a performance because performer. To be sturdy enough not to just be show and tell shoes, but like actually working shoes. Yeah. And so what Charlie hears is sturdy. Yeah. So, boy, howdy. And like, i' I've got this picture in front of me and it's just so funny because you actually look at it and the person who made this shoe, they really hit every point of why this is wrong. It's not just the heel. It's not just the angle of the sole. It is the, when you think of brogues, there's a design at the toe. Yes.
00:21:10
Speaker
That's almost like a yoke. And so there's that. Yoke at the toe and front part of this boot and at the at the end of the heel. And then there's, it's again, burgundy suede, a black zipper, a massive black zipper. And this is a massive boot. And then the sole and the the heel are also black.
00:21:32
Speaker
Yeah. And so this is just a – this is a clodhopper. Oh, it's so bad. Like the – if you like trace around the outside of the shoe like on a piece of paper, like you put your foot down and you trace it around and then you trace it around a pair of the brogues, it would be the same. Yeah. It's like a hunting boot shape. Yeah. Like that's not what you want out of a – boot for a drag queen. It does not taper into the ankle. like None of the information that would be conveyed from the shoe that a drag queen would wear is here. None of that. There is no minimizing. There is no elegance. There is no shaping. It's just boom, man, leg, foot. Yeah. It's just, it's not delicate. It's not elegant. It's none of those things. It's not soft. And so she has this speech about the sex is in the heel. And the whole time I'm yelling, because of course she accidentally tripped the PA system. So everybody in the factory is listening this conversation. love And um I'm just yelling like,
00:22:35
Speaker
There's a reason why heels are shaped the way that they are. It's because it transforms how your leg perches. It transforms how your muscles are displayed. yeah It transforms how your hips move in order to compensate for your toe heel difference. it It changes everything about how you walk.
00:22:56
Speaker
No matter how you feel about wearing heels, I, for one, am not a person who can really function in heels because I just – this boot would probably serve me. you know like i'm Honestly, i know. I've never – I always have had really sensitive feet. yeah um i i can't wear heels. It just has never really worked for
Drag Fashion Evolution and Media Influence
00:23:15
Speaker
me. Yeah, it's just not my strong suit. yeah And i I would just faceplant. and so but But there's architecture and engineering in those kinds of shoes. Yeah. that is real real and some people care about the people who are wearing those shoes and some people don't and so like it's it's a whole spectrum but for Charlie to kind of like approach making this as if he's never seen the heel before i mean come on Charlie it's like come on and then it also is highlighting the way that masculinity is being displayed in this movie right the traditional masculinity which is kind of through the character that Nick Frost plays whose name i it's like Dawn um Which is that anything feminine is weak.
00:23:59
Speaker
And if you're a man, you don't even notice the most basic stuff about women. Which is like kind of crazy. Yes. And that's how a lot of people think and approach, think of and approach masculinity. And that's yeah really stupid. It's also just funny to me because I'm like, the girls are wearing the heels to look good. And they're appreciating how they look. And some people appreciate it more than others and have like fixations on shoes. And that's, you know, tea but don't what it is. But, but, but like you've seen people before with your eyes. Yeah.
00:24:34
Speaker
so yeah So it's like this – it's almost as if this story is taking place in the 50s. So watching people be dressed more modern and have cell phones kind of took me aback for a second because these attitudes are so – ancient completely. And it's like you're in the shoe game.
00:24:56
Speaker
Even if your dad was making experimental men's shoes, you would have some kind of absorbed knowledge that you would be actively rejecting, right? Like, I don't know. It's just like, Charlie, where you been, girl? So...
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah. And it's so... Yeah. Charlie's an interesting character in this movie because he's just a he's just a lost little lamb for so much. like He's helpless. And he he says later, like, I'm just not no good at being a man. And it's like, well, if you're judging yourself by this very narrow margin, i don't think anybody's successful. No.
00:25:36
Speaker
But back to Lola, my favorite. She is... Amazing. And like there's part of this movie where she is dressed in her men's clothes like to I think to just like kind of bridge the gap between the discomfort and comfort provided in the factory because she is a learning lesson and moment. Yeah. lot of these folks. It also kind of was giving me like RuPaul vibes because that is someone that will like go back and forth between.
00:26:11
Speaker
different presentations depending on like context so i was like i wonder if that was part of it i don't know that makes perfect sense and like she's still fabulous and she's got eyebrows for days um but like she's very understated for part of the movie yeah and then when she is lola she is just gorgeous tailored clothes like i mean she stands out like the lights turned on And then when you go into the club and see her perform and see her with other performers, that's where all, of course, like the shine is. But it's also where a lot of the color is, like the more saturated color. Yeah, there is not a lot of color to be had anywhere else in this movie. It's and very keeping to like a muted
00:27:00
Speaker
Yeah. elsewhere It's very drab, but intentionally intentionally drab. But it's it was also interesting to to watch this because this movie 20 years old now. and I mean, sorry.
00:27:16
Speaker
but um Like, i I don't especially keep up with too much in the drag world, but it's obviously become much more mainstream. Oh, it's way, way more mainstream. Like, it's so different.
00:27:32
Speaker
But just seeing the difference in... the way that drag queens are like done up in this movie and like ones that we know now in pop culture, it was really stark how...
00:27:49
Speaker
um in a way they almost felt like understated compared to, i would say like the diversity of what drag is now. There was kind of like one way of doing drag. it It felt like in this movie that feels like more accurate to the time period. Yeah. And that's not to say that there weren't,
00:28:09
Speaker
different styles or anything happened no of course like it was very present and like individual queens like totally stood out especially towards the end of the movie when they're in milan and they save the show because they you know they all just stomp out and third act and like amazing but yeah it was very much It feels more handmade. Like it feels more. Yeah. Which is what it was. and it's like RuPaul's Drag Race.
00:28:38
Speaker
I feel like bringing it to the fore, the mainstream, really changed people's expectations of what drag is. And I think that this is a conversation that a lot of queens have um on podcasts, et cetera.
00:28:52
Speaker
I know that I've watched Trixie and Katya have this conversation. um Because now... From what I know of RuPaul's Drag Race, now people who go on as contestants, they have people making things for them. They have professionals making things for them. So the level of their drag is like insane as opposed to...
00:29:15
Speaker
You know, when you think of these are not the same thing, but like when you think of um theatrical costuming or film costuming and then you think of like cosplayers like there's there's always a spectrum right of like um beginner DIY ground floor professional.
00:29:31
Speaker
craftsperson And then there's everything in between. Right. But like when people think of cosplay, they always think of hot glue guns. So like, yeah but that's not what it is. But like drag used to have so
Fashion, Society, and Drag as Performance Art
00:29:45
Speaker
much. And I think it still does have so much.
00:29:49
Speaker
handmade stuff where people have to learn how to do things in order to afford something that looks a certain way. yeah They have to make it themselves. um And then people become craftspeople or get famous enough to be able to hire craftspeople to build things for them. And so this definitely feels more old school. And it was kind of nice to see. like Yeah, it was kind of fun to... Yeah, a little bit. and But like there was this overall feeling that I had through the movie where I was just like...
00:30:20
Speaker
man 2005 was a very conservative clothing time like people like to think about like Paris Hilton and like those people in terms of like when they look back on this era they think about like tabloid culture and celebrity culture but like The regular ass clothes that all of us were wearing in 2005 were so conservative. And I do have to bring up 9-11, think.
00:30:58
Speaker
Like, I do think that that, like, ushered in this, like, conservative era. Like, it did. yeah and it's not – and, like, the politics, like, trickled down into everything. And I do feel like there was this, like – Sort of – I mean, we all lived through this era where, like, business casual was just regular clothes. And not only that, but, like, when people think of certain parts of early 2000s fashion, what they're thinking of is, like, Abercrombie and Fitch. Yeah. And that's very, like – That was part of it. 100%. But not all of it. the way think of it is very specifically, like, Martha's Vineyard Rich Kid.
00:31:35
Speaker
Yeah. Where it's, like – Just even if there's like low rise jeans and like scoop necks, you know, that do show skin, there's still something about it where it's like the colors and the textures even of the garment itself that just never step over into anything exciting because like, well, this color would be too much. So we have to scale it back to Navy, you know, like yeah the the prevalence of polo shirts Oh, my God. On middle schoolers? The amount of, like... And high schoolers? Like, casual canvas blazers that we were all wearing. Boat shoes? Like, the sort of, like, loose, like, cargo capri pants? Ugh, it's so gross! And, like, I just...
00:32:25
Speaker
Rage. So yes, everything was really, really, really dialed back. And I know that like a lot of, it's come back a lot of the stuff and i wish it would go back to the hell from whence it came. um Because we did it.
00:32:40
Speaker
Now we can let it go. But like seeing it come back again is such a trip because it's like I did not make this connection to 9-11 even though we lived through it. But I do think that that is the cause. It is. Everything really closed down. Everything became so conservative. and The 20th century ended that day. like And there was just this – it changed everything in society. It's crazy to me that there are like – full grown adults walking around this world that weren't born yet when that happened because they have no memory of the before time.
00:33:19
Speaker
I mean, obviously in a movie like this, you have to create contrast between the drag world and like the civilian, like whatever world, yeah you know? And like, obviously, like there's so many reasons for storytelling that like the people in the factory have to kind of be drab in order to like tell the story. um but i I have to admit, even from the drag performances, i like wanted more costume wise. i wanted more. Yeah.
00:33:48
Speaker
i i also think that, you know, being raised on Priscilla Queen of the Desert, yeah you you get used to the bombastic drama.
00:33:59
Speaker
yeah i think also of the looks, the makeup looks. And so, like, Lola is pretty understated makeup-wise. She is. She's not... She's glam. She's glam, but she's not caricaturized. Right. And so, because she's your focal point...
00:34:18
Speaker
you're not always looking in the background until Milan. And then Milan, everybody was pumped up more because they're in Milan. But like Lola was glam and gorgeous, but there wasn't the amount of
00:34:39
Speaker
What's the word that I'm looking for? accessories, but like the finishing details. And not from the design, but from just from that style of drag at that time. Right. like Everything that she had was like beautiful and glamorous, and like the fit was amazing. and like Everything was great, but it was it did feel like... It felt older.
00:35:04
Speaker
it felt older. There was a there was a number... um towards the beginning where she has like a big yellow wig, blonde wig. Yeah. Yeah. It's yellow. um But it's very yellow. Blonde hair is yellow, everybody. I think that we should all, we can all admit that. We can all admit that now. Thank you. um But it felt very old Hollywood.
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah. And so glam was the right word where it felt glamorous. It felt very glamorous. that kind of like understated collected beauty. And like the, the shows that we saw, like the little snippets of the shows were really tight. Like the background dancers and everything, it was really cool.
00:35:46
Speaker
um But it felt like a certain style. And so it's like, Oh, that would be cool. If that was like the, the night's theme or like the show's theme for that show. ah But it wasn't as,
00:36:03
Speaker
And there was no kitsch. There was no unhinged. think that's what it is. There was no like uncontrolled fun, if you will. Yes. It was very, very tight, very glamorous and very beautiful, but without the the variety.
00:36:19
Speaker
m that I think kitsch is the word that I was trying to get to. is And like not derogatory in any way. Oh, no, no Drag. There's so much clever stuff that happens in there. And part of the cleverness is pointing at some, like taking something that is just average and then yeah making it have way more character. yeah and so that is usually where the kitsch falls in. And like, and that wasn't necessarily on display. yeah,
00:36:47
Speaker
Maybe that's just like what people did or didn't have access to and like what they could hide in their closet. Because it seemed like based on the attitudes of the factory workers, they became more tolerant and people had, there was a spectrum of the employees who were more or less. And like, I don't care. You know, like, of course people are different, um but there was still such intolerance on display. Yeah.
00:37:12
Speaker
That yeah I guess you wouldn't necessarily want to have like super neon things in your house when you could maybe hide something a little bit darker. don't know true if that was feeding into it.
00:37:25
Speaker
i think it's possible. And I i felt like there was... um There was like jokes and stuff throughout the movie about like whether Lola was like passing or not. Yeah. and I feel like the current climate that we live in with like different types of drag, that is less part of the conversation. Yeah, it's not as black and white anymore. It's understood now in a more mainstream way that drag is a performance. Yeah.
00:38:00
Speaker
And like that... drag queens are artists and that people have different representations amongst that art form and drag kings yeah but like and that people have different goals like for some people different goals that like what they want their performance to be is is just different like i feel like it's the same conversation as if we had done the movie to wong fu thanks for everything joy numar there's so much of that movie is about passing or not passing and And feel like maybe that was just the conversation. i mean, that movie is like maybe 10 years before this movie, but like, I feel like that part of of it was more just the conversation back then as people were.
00:38:52
Speaker
you know, hopefully like developing more like love and and understanding for these communities. And language for it. Yeah. Because like unless yeah you were a part of a queer community, you weren't exposed to conversations about this. Unless you had people in your life who were out and proud and felt safe talking to you about this stuff. You just, it was not mainstream the way that it is now. Right. Right. And I think that that is so true. Like you said earlier that Charlie was sort of like, well, we don't have this type of thing here. And Lola's like, get real. Like he's so for real
00:39:27
Speaker
And it's like also as somebody who like I knew a drag queen briefly in my childhood who was such a sweetheart. And she had the biggest bushy beard like ever. But sometimes she would like scale down to being like a 50 o'clock shadow. But she would like lounge around. And this was ah the – I was a child. So I i didn't – there was no accessibility at that time for me to be able to see her performances or anything. Right. But she would just hang out in sparkly heels like at the house. I love that.
00:39:58
Speaker
But wearing like the rattiest jeans in the world and like denim on denim on denim. You know what i mean? Like yeah so comfortable up top, stilettos down below. Right. you know People didn't necessarily talk about this or get exposed to it.
00:40:14
Speaker
And it's like – But it was always there. yeah and it's like if you got to grow up adjacent, you knew it was there. Like this was never a mystery to me. Right. Like i i think it was less – Like, I didn't know anyone that was like involved, at least as far as I know, you know what I mean? Like, you know, like Lola said, like, I don't know, actually. But my first real exposure to drag was when I was like 12 or 13. And my friend's parents took us to Beach Blanket Babylon. Yes. Which is gone. I know. Speaking of costumes, we're going to have to – I think we should do an episode on Beach Bank of Babylon at some Oh, my God. Just to talk about those costumes because – Is there like a documentary or something? Like – I would hope so. I hope so. I hope so. famous for their costumes yeah please anyone who's never heard of it please just google them um but that was like a huge revelation to me being like 12 or 13 and being like this is happening every day like couple hours from my house like and it's so fun and it's so cool and it was
00:41:29
Speaker
ah like they you know they let us in at like 13 like it was family friendly yeah it was just a quick thing it was like a dine uh not a dinner theater but like like kind of kind of a dinner theater where i don't remember if you could like have full meals or not but you had like little tables that you'd sit at and then it was it was just like a kind of an intimate venue yeah and then you had this amazing show That would come at you and the costumes are phenomenal. And like, what an amazing experience, like as a kid to be like, yeah this is awesome. And not just, not just be exposed to like community theater or Broadway, at like the current theater, you know, like that kind of thing, but be like, no, there's so many more ways to display art. And like, this is rad. Yeah.
00:42:17
Speaker
Yeah, it was amazing. I mean, i'm i have a time I wish I had gone more. Like, I wish I had been more times. I only went a couple times. But um back to the movie. Back to the movie. um But yeah, I just like there was the execution of drag in this movie was really lovely to see. I think it was just kind of interesting to watch it now when we have more types and varieties and expressions available that you can like see readily to be like oh yeah this is like I i don't know is it like the monoculture of drag like I don't know.
00:42:59
Speaker
I'm certainly not an expert. so this is one of those moments where I go, oh, I just like sometimes I love this little line that I feel between us is golden thread where one of us is more academic than the other. The monoculture of drag.
00:43:12
Speaker
OK. but you know Back in the time when like everybody had like their Cher impression and the Lucille Ball impression, yeah like whatever. There was a singular idea of what drag was. Yeah. Or maybe it just is this was the palatable version of it for Hollywood or you know what I mean? Like whatever. Probably a combination therein.
00:43:31
Speaker
and Yeah. Because like it's always been, ah i think, a varied spectrum. But the Hollywood version has certainly always been more limited. Yeah. And so it felt nostalgic in that sense of like.
00:43:46
Speaker
the the fabrics, the styles all being like, ah, I remember this. Like, i just, I loved that the way the clothing and the drag existed in the club when we saw it
Costumes as Narrative Tools in Kinky Boots
00:44:07
Speaker
made the spaces feel so alive.
00:44:11
Speaker
And like there was such a variety of people in the audience who were in and out of drag. um And some of those people ah were probably displaying that spectrum of ah their desire for what drag means. And when charlie and i can't remember her name the character oh the the factory girl ah can't think of her name either i can only remember the fiance lauren but when they're sitting in the audience they don't like stand out like sore thumbs right but they do visually they are set aside
00:44:55
Speaker
Because other people in the audience who are there to see the show have dressed up. They're there on a night out. They want to look cute. They want to look gorgeous. They want to look hot. They want to look sexy. They want to look all these things because they're there for different reasons. And so Charlie and Lauren are just like every day, you know. And so they don't stand out like you are not welcome here. They stand out because their purpose for being there is slightly different. Mm-hmm.
00:45:21
Speaker
And they're wearing – Market research. Market research. And they're wearing the clothes of the drab outside. Yeah. And they're not fully transitioned into the magical world inside the drag club. And when I say magical, I'm not saying it like, ah the magical gay. But like the magic of the warmth of that space. Because that's what it is. That's what transforms it is the warmth and – how much effort and time people are spending on showing, showing all of these characters joy through how they're dressing, like expressing themselves. And so all these background characters have a lot going on because yeah they're not wearing work smocks or these old fashioned like work coats um that have pretty drab things underneath. Like they're deliberately dressing in a way to express joy.
00:46:10
Speaker
themselves and i loved that differentiation like yeah it's it's pretty subtle like you're not gonna go oh my god i'm hitting the face with gold and glitter but you're like no there's a warmth here and a coolness here there's literally like a rosy glow inside that club that is not perpetuated anywhere else no and even though the factory workers seem to enjoy each other and support it like they've worked together for forever And they work together well and they go to the pub and like, you know, do all this stuff together. It's just a different world that exists out there.
00:46:49
Speaker
And so it's, it just doesn't have the same feeling. And I just love that subtlety. This is a great example of real life.
00:47:02
Speaker
Like that's why called it a slice of life. And that kind of costuming is so, It's really hard for it to just because in order to achieve that, everything has to be right.
00:47:14
Speaker
And anything that's not right sticks out like a sore thumb. And you're like, oh, like, yeah what is that weird? Like you might not always be like super conscious of it just watching the movie. If that's not like your focus. But like if any of the people in like the factory had like veered into like a cartoony version of those people you would be like what is wrong with that person yeah and like kind of same with the drag side where it's like if you'd gone super cartoony kind of would have felt like you weren't
00:47:51
Speaker
Taking it as seriously. Like I wonder if maybe that fed into the design of of all the drag looks. And I wonder if that came solely from our costume designer or if there were local drag artists who were like, this is my drag. I can...
00:48:09
Speaker
I would think that it would have to be. mean, I would hope so, because that would be so cool. Obviously, Lola is played by an actor that we've seen in so many different things and different roles. And we know is not like a renowned drag performer outside of this movie.
00:48:26
Speaker
But I have to believe that the majority of the other like drag queens in this movie had to have been real drag queens. They just and looked like real drag queens. Yeah. Like I want to know if somebody was consulted or if people were like, come in and like, we'll pay you to be extras essentially. Like, right. Because everybody looked great. Like, um but if they had gone too hammy, if you will,
00:48:54
Speaker
it it would have felt somehow, I don't know, somehow like it wasn't giving weight to what drag is. right Does that make sense? Because it's like we're talking about the kitchen, we're talking about the drama of drag, but it's like especially in this story at this time, if there was like a ham handed way of delivering the drag,
00:49:19
Speaker
it would have made it seem alien, I think is what I'm saying. i agree. And the way that drag is displayed is showing a culture that is different than what our main characters are exposed to or used to But that is beautiful and adventurous and like talent, right? Yeah. And I think like probably for a lot of people seeing this movie, they're not going to be super familiar. Right. This is their a lot this is the introduction. And the amount like just like watching the movie, just experiencing the movie itself, the amount of like grace and understanding that Lola has to have for the is bullshit. measurable
00:50:05
Speaker
It was like unreal. The amount of like patience and like. just grace that she has for like all of this like homophobia like transphobia like that is like coming at her like throughout the movie and that is just like so many people's experiences of life yeah so i'm sure that that like That level of of like ignorance is going to be present in some of the people watching the movie. right And so like it takes a really delicate hand of being like, let me show you this entire like world that you're not a part of. Yeah. But also like make you want to be a part of it.
00:50:53
Speaker
Yeah. And it's like, I'm thinking about us talking about how, kind so like, not conservative, but the type of drag that was, like, popular at this time. And I'm like, Priscilla Queen the Desert was before this. Yeah, it really was. like the last. That was too Wong Fu. really was. those are very different, brighter palettes, all those things.
00:51:10
Speaker
And so it's like... This is just a different style and a different place being represented. And one of the journeys that I do love is the journey that's being told through shoes. And it's the journey that's representative of the community that we're following, mostly the factory workers.
00:51:29
Speaker
Of course, the drag performers um and the people who are, you know, clientele who are going to be buying these shoes. But like going from these like traditional boring men's brooks, shade, no shame um And people just being like, we just make quality, sturdy shoes to by the end being really proud of the shoes that they're making. And they're like patent leather, like yeah shiny, glossy. A little pocket for the writing crop. For the crop. It's just like so cool. um And then like I wish that we'd had a little bit more time in the movie to really relish Milan and to see the queens on stage with their shoes. Because like this is film. So this is before digital. Yeah.
00:52:16
Speaker
And so sometimes you don't really get to see details as well in film um as you do in digital. Like if you pause, it's going to be there's going to be more texture in there and it's probably going to be a little bit grayer or darker. yeah um and so the factory is making this variety of shoes and they have to make it in different sample sizes. Right. And there's like all these boots, these like stiletto boots and different things. And we get to see it, but we don't get any like insanely loving shots. Right. like right You really get to see it in like high res with the lighting. Pan across. like Yeah. Every style. Kind of dark. And like earlier in the movie, when Lauren is pointing out to Charlie at the the drag club, like look behind you.
00:53:09
Speaker
This is your niche market. And we get this like pan of all of these people with their like feet sticking out. It's all these different shoes, all these different heels. And we can see each one. I don't think that we got that kind of same loving shot.
00:53:24
Speaker
in milan and i really wish that we did because this factory made such a variety and they're all designed by lola which i love that she oh yeah she's the designer she knows the market she knows what she needs and so there's such a variety and like we see different fabrics and them being cut and we see different stages of the building but we don't really get to like relish in the final result and It's more of a bigger picture of like the performance of the queens. Right. And I was thinking about that, too, because I was like looking at the clock and when Charlie is making the burgundy sample pair, we're like 45 minutes into the movie already at that point. Like we're pretty far into the movie. It's a long time.
00:54:11
Speaker
Yeah. So there's a lot of. Yeah.
00:54:16
Speaker
establishing and like character and like story before we even get there so it does like i was sort of wondering because i'm like watching the movie and like we only have like 10 minutes left and we're like barely getting we're like getting on a plane to milan i'm like i want like 20 minutes in milan how we need the third act Yeah, so i I totally agree. I would have liked more loving shots of the shoes. And that is something that I really enjoy about the musical, if anyone has seen it, because the
00:54:51
Speaker
The other drag queens that perform in Milan, in the musical they're referred to as the angels. And i think there's, in the Broadway, I think there's eight of them. And I don't know if people do that show regionally. I think there's like space to like cut down the number of of angels. But...
00:55:10
Speaker
They come to the factory with Lola. They are present multiple times throughout the show. i like that. There's a lot more opportunity for them in drag and more shoes and like more variety. So there's just more drag, i think, in the stage production because they have like incorporated these characters throughout the story. um and there's, I think, just more time to like watch and enjoy, ah which is what i want to do Yeah. i want to relish in it yeah
00:55:44
Speaker
i don't know i think that a lot is hanging on the character of lola in this movie where she has to carry a lot of the color and the magic And so even when she's in the factory in like, shall we say day day clothes, she has shirts that have pops of color and have like fun patterns and things happening and like tailored jackets. And like the way that she dresses herself is with care and it's not perfunctory. Nothing that she does is perfunctory. She wants to feel like herself in whatever she's wearing.
Concluding Thoughts on Kinky Boots and Upcoming Episode
00:56:19
Speaker
And so even that difference stands out in how her clothing
00:56:24
Speaker
fits on her and um it's just like a real contrast to charlie who feels like like he's just lost and swimming through his life and um There are so many other characters that ah you know have different responsibilities for the for the storytelling and like the homophobia of it all. yeah um like They fit into the the drabness of the world and the darkness of their own clothes. They don't really stand out. at ok I should mention the ex-girlfriend. so I was going to say, where do you land on Nicola, fiancé? I don't care for her. um No.
00:57:04
Speaker
Because like you can you can want different things in someone, but you don't have to be a prick about it. And you also don't have to be homophobic and yeah shitty. yeah um But her character, she's reaching for something that that goes looking for Charlie. So like we see her thirsting after these shoes.
00:57:25
Speaker
Are they like Louis? What are they? They're Jimmy Chews. Thank you. They're Jimmy Chews. Louis Vuitton. there You wish, Louis Vuitton. And so ah they are bright, I think red.
00:57:40
Speaker
Yeah, they are. And so that's like the theme here. She wants them. He says, I'll buy them for you eventually, you know. Yeah. They're kind of like this carrot for her. And he just never really does because he doesn't really see what's the point.
00:57:54
Speaker
So he's never really working towards that goal. But the whole movie, like, that's her – that's, like, her dreams in a nutshell is buying things – buying a life that is represented by these shoes. It's a status thing for her. is. And so – This like symbol of warmth and sexiness and power and everything has different meanings to different people. And why I say that she's reaching for it, but it instead reaches for Charlie is that she's pursuing this pair of heels over and over and over again. And then she finally buys it for herself. Mm hmm.
00:58:28
Speaker
kind of as like in a fit of peak like a little bit of a revenge against charlie once they're no longer together and so there's like an ugliness attached to it for me um and so every time she wears those shoes there's going to be this ugliness that she brings with it whereas lola is in pursuit of kind of these like perfect red boots right stiletto boots but when she wears them Everybody is affected by her brightness.
00:59:00
Speaker
And so it's, there's just like so many levels, like layers to that and how it aids the performance. Of any actor who's playing any of those characters, because like the the shoes that Nicola is going on Nicola, right, that she's going after are also pretty demure conservative heels are not super crazy.
00:59:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, they're they have a little they're like a little cage heel. which Yeah, but they're not super strappy. They're not like super shiny. They're just bright. And like, well they're sexy for her style. Yeah, they're certainly wild in the context of Nicola. Right. But they're, yeah, they're just, they're not like insane, you know? No.
00:59:48
Speaker
And um they're certainly not that high, you know? So they they are something that would fit into her her life. Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:00
Speaker
for for what i do to represent myself and then lola's shoes are just always all all over. They're like, there's a constellation of her shoes. And we do get loving shots of all these different shoes that she wears throughout.
01:00:19
Speaker
And they're all different colors, all different heel heights, strappy, not strappy, thigh-high boots with pockets for crops. Like there's just so much symbolized and represented by these things. And like Lola comes into Charlie's life and is like,
01:00:36
Speaker
these shoes will set you free essentially yeah like you know you don't have to be drab and like beaten down these shoes are the first step to your liberation right and it's like the the relationship between Lola and Charlie is like she kind of demands that That he get involved in his own life.
01:01:02
Speaker
And that's not something that Nicola seems particularly invested in. No. She wants him involved in her life. Yeah, she likes him kind of as a placeholder.
01:01:15
Speaker
Yeah. And like what he what space he fills. Yes. But like, like. like the the mere presence of Lola demands that Charlie be better and like engage with his own mind and like figure himself out.
01:01:34
Speaker
And, you know, what ah what a nice thing to do. Yeah. To someone. is Yeah. So it's, there's, this is a movie where costumes serve as,
01:01:50
Speaker
costumes and plot devices yeah and metaphor. You know, like there's or at least some other word that describes something a little bit less tangible. They're everything, darling. They're everything. And like, I think that it is a lovely story And i think it's definitely a movie worth watching. And it's work that I think is worth seeing. Because yeah this is this is not as big as Romy and Michelle, which is funny to say. um
01:02:25
Speaker
Because, like, so different different time span. But it's not like... Well, it's just like a different style of filmmaking. Oh, yeah. Different style of filmmaking. But it's like... yeah what I'm trying to get at is what we always kind of come back to, which is that there are so many different ways of using costume. And sometimes you're really hitting people in the face with fashion. And sometimes you're using more subtle ways of talking about how fashion can be important in people's life and how it is more than something empty and is instead a skill.
01:02:59
Speaker
It's um representative of something else. It's, you know, um yeah something that brings people together, tears them apart. Self-expression. Yeah. All these different things that it's that it's art, that it's, you know, controversial, all sorts of things. But that also this movie is more slice of life than Romy and Michelle, yeah which is slice of life, but very controlled slice of life in order to really deliver a story. Yeah.
01:03:27
Speaker
like like the dream sequence where everybody's drab but it's within a very tight color palette. this Yeah, that movie's like a slice of cartoon. Yes, it's like a slice cartoon. And like this is very much more slice of life that you could go out and see on the streets and that you could see different ways of people dressing and being. And so it's just a ah nice different example of costume design and what costume design can achieve.
01:03:55
Speaker
Yeah. And that's Kinky Boots. um I know what's on the schedule for our next movie, but i hope that you want to still do that movie. I don't think that this season would be complete without it, but I don't know if it's a movie that you particularly like or want to to talk about. I don't remember.
01:04:19
Speaker
oh it's The Devil Wears Prada. Oh, God. Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Yeah. It's a big one for a lot of people. Let's talk about it.
01:04:34
Speaker
I feel like we have to. yeah I also personally really like that movie. I know. Sometimes we're just different people. It's crazy.
01:04:49
Speaker
Yes. Let us watch. Let us. Okay. All right. Well, everyone, I don't know how much of that will make it into the final edit. Everyone, please join us if you so dare. Next week, we are going to cover, I would say a juggernaut. I would describe it as a juggernaut in popular culture.
01:05:11
Speaker
in movies about fashion. It's a film that people feel a lot of ways about and I support all of the ways that people feel about this movie. And the film is something you may have heard of called the Devil Wears Prada. 2006, Anne Hathaway, Emily Blunt, Meryl Streep, Stanley Tucci.
01:05:33
Speaker
There was a little sequel that came out a few months ago. that I have not seen. ah I'm excited to talk about the movie and I'm excited to talk about the movie with Ariel, particularly.
01:05:46
Speaker
Why is no one ready? ah I mean, We will be ready.
01:05:57
Speaker
we will We will be ready. but We're going to talk about those two turquoise belts for like an hour. oh my God. And nothing else. Nothing else.
01:06:07
Speaker
but We're going to talk about the Chanel boots for an hour and nothing else. Philosophy and nothing else.
01:06:18
Speaker
Oh, I'm so excited. join us for that episode. Thank you so much for listening. Bye.