Transcript
Speaker: I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
Speaker: Hello friends. Welcome. Today is our finale for season five, which is crazy. i like look at our episodes and I just have to keep scrolling because we've put out so many.
Speaker: could you believe that? can't. It's very cool. I know. and i think like some people are listening. I do worry in the current podcast landscape that like There's just like AI bots like scraping our episodes, but I don't i don't know how you would ever know. so Yeah.
Speaker: yeah Someday we'll just hear a different podcast. Hear ourselves saying like deeply, deeply problematic things or something. Yeah. And then we will know that we have been scraped. That we have been scraped. But if you're a if if this episode is reaching your human ears out there, ah let us know. We're on Instagram and threads, like technically, even if we don't spend a lot of time there. But we're there. And if you drop us a follow or a comment or something, we will see it
Speaker: And we are still people currently for now. as you can tell, we love to chat. so Yeah. We like to chat about this common interest. We really do. So, yes, I encourage you, if you are a human listening to our show, let us know. um But yes, today, the matter at hand, ah we decided to conclude our season on movies about clothes with the documentary from 1990 or 1991. feel like there's sort of mixed ah dates of premiere for this particular film. ah But we picked the documentary Paris is Burning, which according to the IMDb summary is
Speaker: A chronicle of New York's drag scene in the nineteen eighty s focusing on balls, voguing, and the ambitions and dreams of those who gave the era its warmth and vitality, which I think is a really good description for this particular movie. I agree.
Speaker: I think yeah that's a really kind of lovely description. summary And i do want to preface our discussing this with a couple things. Yeah. Real world gravitas.
Speaker: One is that there is legitimate criticism of the white director, Jenny Livingston, who existed outside of ballroom culture, African-American and Latino culture, and who was essentially making this to be consumed and sold to consumed by and sold to white audiences. So over time,
Speaker: There's been a lot of criticism. There's also been a lot of ah welcoming of this documentary and a lot of lauding it. And that's kind of where I had heard of it was from that avenue. Yeah, me too. And so I also had seen, and I mentioned this before, I'm Your Venus, which is a documentary that focuses on Venus extravaganza, who we find out at the end of this documentary was murdered 1988. Yeah.
Speaker: while Paris is Burning was still being filmed. um Both her biological and her ballroom families are in that documentary trying to get what justice is available now. And her family does achieve the legal posthumous name change for her to honor her. And they also are able to, her ballroom family is able to um put her family home that she grew up in on the historical register. So it's a historical site. Yeah.
Speaker: um And then another documentary I'd like to recommend is How Do I Look by Wolfgang Bush, which is about ballroom in Harlem and harlem and Philadelphia. and it took place over 10 years and is considered to be kind of a balance for the accused exploitation of Paris is Burning because it was created by and for the ballroom community.
Speaker: And after this documentary, Paris is Burning, came out, there was some friction between some of the subjects, if you will, and the um the director, where some folks were paid, others were not. And then there was a conversation about ethics, and they were going to be sued, and then there was...
Speaker: you know different different stuff that happened and people did settle for certain amounts of money. So there was just like some feeling of being exploited, i think, for some folks after this. um There's also critique a critique that names gatekeeping. And how some things are just not meant for outside eyes. So there's like a lot of feelings about that with this documentary um that I felt just should be mentioned we're discussing it. And like today we were so in a time of social media where we just are so used to seeing so much personal shit. So it doesn't necessarily automatically click for us that, you know, unless we are a part of a marginalized community or a closed community, it might not occur to us that this is not necessarily for us. um
Speaker: But I do feel the privilege, and I'm sure you do, of being able to look into these moments of these people and their lives and their community. Yeah, I felt really thankful that this movie, that we did get to see that and that the people that were in the movie did, you know, talk so freely about what it is and and they...
Speaker: At least at the time it was being filmed, they seemed to be participating out of wanting to share and wanting to show people. And they were very you know kind in explaining things and stuff that there would be no way for anyone else outside of that community to know, especially in like the eighty s when Yeah.
Speaker: If you weren't there, there is no way for you to know that that was even like happening. So yeah, it is an interesting balance of at what point are you sharing and so like, it's hard to know what people's intentions are when they're making something, but It is interesting to me that at least in the film itself, the director was not like a character. And there was criticism for that.
Speaker: Really? People had an issue with that, including Bell Hooks. Wow. um Named that as like an imperial presence. Interesting. And I think that it's because of the racial dynamics, because the people who are in this documentary are specifically African-American and Latino. Yeah.
Speaker: yeah And so they had to create their own community and their own ballroom culture because there's segregation in white gay, like in gay culture and queer culture. And so it's like, this is primarily about people of color and so, and and black people. So it's just like having a white community.
Speaker: documentarian creates a different dynamic that then especially later retrospect you can have a lot of conversations about is there criticism of the because I'm talking about the fact that she didn't yeah insert herself into the film. Yes, there's criticism because so people would would have wanted her insert herself into the film. It's a thing where I'm not a part of this community, so I don't know that it's for me to argue, but I believe that what I was reading is that she is queer and non-gender conforming, and so she's like a part of the community, but not a part of this community. Sure. There was like an argument that the cinema verite of it all
Speaker: kind of in other documentaries makes them ethnographic, which is a film style typically made by Western filmmakers aiming to document the lives and practices of people belonging to non-Western cultures. So kind of like divorcing it from...
Speaker: the home front, if you will. i can't find it, but it it is on the Wikipedia page where there's listing of all the, there's positive and negative critique for sure.
Speaker: um But there was something about because of her privilege of like her racial presence and her background kind of connecting herself to a marginalized community that she's not a part of. And being able to gain from that marginalized community by making this film and then submitting it for awards and potentially making money off of it. I think that some people had a problem with that, which is why... Well, sure. But I don't see how her being in the film would mitigate that. Like if she was a character of the film, I don't think that would necessarily change that. I think that you have to read other people's critiques in order to get why that might make them feel a type of way as a total... Yeah, yeah. I'm not i'm yeah i'm not arguing about how anyone should feel about it. but
Speaker: No, but there were some critiques that are based on that. and so I'm just imagining how it would be how i would read the documentary if it was like a Michael Moore style film where he's like fully a character in the narrative. And that I think would have been very odd. It would have been for me. From my perspective, but I'm curious to understand why people don't feel feel that way. For me, the way that I took it with her not being present, except you can see her, I think, like once, like in a reflection, um is that I think their argument was that because she wasn't.
Speaker: I don't know. I can't say it because I feel like it would be true if if she was yeah present or not that that she's editing it to guide your perspective. I think that would happening anyway. Sure. But this way it felt as the viewer as if the people in it were telling me their stories. Yes. And no one was...
Speaker: verbally guiding how they told it. It was just like a question and then they answered it. And I'm also yeah just very familiar with that documentary style and I haven't interrogated it and I will admit that. No, no, I just, yeah. so it's like, I just want to put out front that there are some There are some feedback issues from this, but it's also like it is... We've said this before, and sometimes it gets very rote and painful, but it is a product of its moment, its time. And so I can't speak to issues that that that happened or or any of those things because, again, this isn't like super deeply researched. I did try to research some stuff and read some articles so that I wouldn't come across as a total ham. But like it's also...
Speaker: It's a very old documentary. And what's lovely is that there are other documentaries that came after to show the community of Ballroom in some different cities. Yeah. Because this is New York City. um And like later over a different period of time, but to see how it's grown, how it's changed, like where it moved from its beginnings. kind of fascinating because like...
Speaker: On the cusp of all of this with this documentary is like when Madonna released Vogue as a song and she was obviously very inspired by this culture and did bring it to the mainstream awareness of a largely white audience that had not, you know, never been to New York city and was never going to be in these rooms.
Speaker: um So it is interesting. And I think that that might be why there is like a followup section towards the end of the film that is like filmed a couple years later. And I think that the familiarity and explosion of awareness of ballroom culture through people like her changed what it is because suddenly people outside the community did know what it was and were interested in something that they previously didn't even know was going on. It's like, I wonder how much it changed what it is because like today, um a lot of ballroom language is just like slay. clock it shade. Yeah. So many things.
Speaker: And I, I don't know that they change ballroom culture. Well, it was interesting in that section that was at the very end to see that there was a competition that was being judged by um Gwen Verdon herself, which I'm like, I don't know what her history is with this community. Okay, you're right. Because even in the documentary, it's being discussed. Yeah. Yeah. Where it was, um so sorry, you have to like look at my notes, but it was Dorian Corey who was talking about her origins. And she was born June 6th, 1937, may we say. Yeah. yeah so like very different time to to be growing up than many of the younger folks in the community at that moment. And like, this is this is like the height
Speaker: of the AIDS epidemic or almost the height, which might be like a couple years later at like 93 or something. But like, yeah this is happening. It's been happening. yeah So like the population of the gay community has changed and been decimated in many spaces. So it's like to have an elder like that present and talking about ballroom culture And how she's seen it change. Yes. And how she was wearing an outfit that just like felt so very, and I say this very fondly and I hope there's no disrespect read from this, but like an older auntie or like a grandmother who has like been there and she's like got these like rhinestones coming down a waterfall over her shoulder. And like, it almost feels like a silk kind of like, or like a rayon kind of like,
Speaker: blouse happening and she's and I i don't know if it was a dress or a blouse but she's just like you know from my day we had like beads and you know all of this yeah all of the drag stuff was centered around the Vegas showgirl yeah it was big it had that was a touch point yeah and it had all this bigness and like theatricality and now it's all about runway mos yeah and Runway models. and so yeah you're right there are things that absolutely changed and then madonna coming in big names coming in like that like now with the rise of rupaul's drag race like there are so many things that are now
Speaker: available to mainstream consumption and have changed how it functions within Maybe not like in the in a club where there's like a you know drag performer performing. But right the way that the mainstream is accessing it has changed because now you've got big names judging. You've got um costume designers who are building it or fashion folks who are building the looks.
Speaker: And just like the way that the availability of like makeup products have changed over time and the um way that people learn about things like the the way that like I could stay in my house, never leave, but I could learn so much about certain things just by watching like YouTube tutorials and videos and podcasts and, and access a community that is so physically far away from me yeah and learn about it, but still not be part of it, but be a consumer of it. Right.
Speaker: Is fascinating. and Yeah. It's a very, it's a very different time of how we access things. Yeah. And so it was, Really interesting to see. And there's a lot of things that happen um within this documentary um that are ballroom cultural things, conversations on realness, which is...
Speaker: a different way of talking about trans folk passing and there were competitions for that and like all these different things that we would talk about I think differently now but I'm also not a member of the ballroom community so I'm not trying to like speak for a ballroom I'm just like really trying to hammer that one down yeah I think there are that we can approach it from appreciating the documentary yeah appreciating the aesthetic free appreciating the um the different ways that people were approaching clothing yeah in it and the different goals that people stated that they had for what they were trying to do you know i think i think you're absolutely correct like i i think it
Speaker: I'm glad that you're bringing in like what people have said about the documentary because like specifically to speak for myself, like I am not part of that community. yeah And I didn't. So I'm coming to it from a perspective. It didn't raise those flags for me. Maybe it should have. I don't know. But like, yeah,
Speaker: it's It's important to listen to the community that the movie's about. So thank you for bringing all of that. Yeah. And thank you for bringing it back to this because I also wanted to say, i think a long time ago, the second reason for the second thing that I wanted to talk about this was...
Speaker: When you're thinking about costume, especially when it's costume for real people who exist in a non-fantasy world, it will apply to fantasy worlds as well. But like when you're thinking about real people in this world that we know, you want to look at people who exist around you and see how they're interacting with clothing and how they are designing their lives. And like these women and men and potentially non-binary folk,
Speaker: like have so much
Speaker: fighting against them in their life that they have carved out these spaces to express themselves in a way that they can't in others.
Speaker: And they have, they use so many tools to express who they are. And like, the clothing, the hair, the makeup is so, it's all an art form.
Speaker: And it was like interesting to see so many younger like queens and and like, you know, young folk like beginning their journey, you can kind of tell with like their expression and their competition clothing. And you can see them learning to sew and like making and building their own clothing as well as altering it.
Speaker: And then competing, we got to see some of the competing and seeing like the basically like catwalk. And it's just like there's such a variety of expression. and like it seems like a lot of it is to look finished and elegant and like really, really, really well put together. Yeah. There's a precision no matter what. you're Because like there's – all of these different categories that you could basically can like submit what your look and what your performance is meant to be. And there's tons of different categories of like what people are there to do. And it seems like that so was sort of ever growing and evolving of like why, what expression people wanted to have, like how they wanted to look.
Speaker: But the, judging was about how precise and finished and um deliberate and and perfect that was. Like whatever category you were in, whether it was something that might look Out of context.
Speaker: Like somebody that you would see on the street. And just not really think twice about them. Because everything about them fit. And was right. And that was the goal for some people.
Speaker: And some people it was about. Something that was very elaborate. And fantasy. and like And being the cover of a magazine. Yeah. But it was like. No matter what your goal was. You had to achieve it perfectly. In order to.
Speaker: win essentially to win your category and like in the documentary we see people in casual clothing we see them scales of casual and scales of like essentially competition like levels of clothing and it is just like so amazing the scale also because it's the 80s yeah like 1990 is like yeah when it's listed as coming out but it's just the 80s but it's like There's such a variety
Speaker: of things on on display. Like there were a couple dresses that I was like, I i want to see this in person.
Speaker: um I don't remember the competing person's name, but they are competing against Octavia st Laurent.
Speaker: And she is wearing, I think, like a blue dress. And they're wearing multicolored dress that looks like it's rhinestone or beaded.
Speaker: and I was like, anytime I see rhinestones or beads, I'm there. Let me in. want to crawl through the screen and just like take a quick gu peek. And then there was somebody else who had this like bodycon black dress with my gold beading around the neck.
Speaker: And I believe it went around the back and it was just like, Oh my God, come on now. Like there's just such a scale here. And there's conversation about like going into the shops that are the designer shops. And then like folks who can, you know,
Speaker: steal shit. Yeah. like You know, making that happen. And I was like, fair. You know what? That's fine. Get it. um I loved the ah the opening of the movie is like this wonderful tracking shot following someone in to the room And she's in this like outrageous gold lame situation. Situation. mean, it's like these like giant puffed sleeve rolls that are It's like you're not sure if you're looking at someone's side or back. Yes, because there's just so much volume going on. And then when she takes like takes the sleeve, because the sleeve is like not attached to the dress, it's just like being held on by like arm and like force of will. And when she like takes the the sleeve pieces off and everyone just is like dying because it's so theatrical and it's so fun and it's so cool. And it was just like, what a beautiful...
Speaker: opening to like, we are going inside this yeah world. But then I was so surprised to see some of the looks that were like, military, or like, you know, corporate business, very straight, very, very straight laced.
Speaker: Yeah, contained. Yeah. There was a lot of those were categories that people like I didn't I didn't know that. And, um you know, here here I am barreling into this community that I'm not a part of and just like not knowing anything about it. Hello.
Speaker: um But it was fascinating, especially with the interviews of people talking about, you know, why that was someone's goal. And it was like, mean yeah. and And just like.
Speaker: the different goals even and And this is a really perfect example of real life. I'll say it again. I'll say at it every day, how powerful clothing is and what it conveys subtly out loud, like all of those things. This is because it's not, it is about expressing yourself and it is about taking power for yourself, how you um can control how you move through the world to a degree, but it is amazing.
Speaker: to see again the spectrum of how people use clothing to express themselves because it is that spectrum of like going straight laced and being read a certain way when you are out in the world outside of the ballroom or like being big and like taking up space and being um extravagant if you will and like it just like hits on why costume is important to me and very frequently the word costume will be used to
Speaker: and this is like a point of contention in the world fairly, that the word costume will be applied to wardrobe or like wardrobe of a people, clothing of a people. There's like two definitions, it feels like to the word costume. There is the theatrical costume and there is the costume of a people, the clothing that is identified with this people in this time.
Speaker: And so I'm not going to try to to to use that necessarily, but it is like... This is why I love the the the area that we work in of costume is that you can study how people move the world, how they change the world with what seems kind of small now, which is like wearing pants or wearing a skirt, wearing high heels or not like different kinds of shoes. What all of these things tell you about someone, what spaces they allow you to be in and what spaces you can carve for yourself in order to
Speaker: to wear or to create the things of your dreams like those are all big things yeah they are and i'm going to like really poorly um paraphrase like a clip of some other like video that i saw at one point where um someone was sort of like gently needling this woman and saying like you know you know like what do you know about masculinity you're like a woman you're not a man essentially i know this video yeah yeah yeah and so and so and her comment was like I have to know everything about this in order to like understand how to like survive and
Speaker: So seeing especially the categories in the ball that were about, you know, ah looking very, like for lack of a better term, very straight, very like businessy, very corporate, very like everyday in a way. It was like people who are marginalized by the mainstream are an expert on the mainstream because they have to understand what it is in order to navigate it. Yeah. hi So, Oh, I eat as part of, she's marginalized. ah
Speaker: um But i think that it was so true that like, I don't think that you could have achieved such perfect looks if you sent a bunch of corporate businessmen into that. No. They can do it. They can't do it because they, you know, they can't see the water because they are fish and they swim through it. Like they need, you need like the outside perspective in order to understand what it is and how to do it um
Speaker: And yeah, it was just like, I appreciated that we got these conversations with people in addition to just seeing footage of different competitions. I really appreciated um getting a little bit more personal with some of the people that were in the documentary about like who they are and why they enjoy doing that, you know, why they care about it. And,
Speaker: Just like a little bit more who they are as like humans, I think really um because, you know, we both ah approach the work that we do because we care about stories and we care about people and we're interested in those things. So it was more meaningful than just having a bunch of footage of competition. think. Yeah. And that that's also why we landed on watching a documentary versus yeah ah a movie. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Which is was a connection. Is this our first documentary on the podcast? I think so. I think so too. And it's like, it's just, I, I kind of like, I felt giddy a little bit while watching it. Cause it was just like, it is a point of connection. I'm not connecting with a fictional person. I'm connecting with someone who is very real and lived a very real life.
Speaker: And like, I do want to say that that big gold dress that Melinda was describing from the very beginning Yeah. Is Pepper LaBeija is wearing it. Thank you. And she is in the glory from waist up. So we don't get to see the whole outfit. But there is a picture on IMDb in the photos. It's 16 of 48 pictures. So you can go and see.
Speaker: Excellent. And she's she's also wearing at some point. It's photo number 20 on IMDb. this like blue and white number that is rhinestone to the gods and has this like hat that's like a little fascinator it's a little bit to the side and is actually kind of cool because i'm sort of building a hat base like that right now that like tilts a little bit with a peak like that perfect there's like a beaded tassel i feel like there's just like uh it's just incredible
Speaker: I and just needed to name that outfit. It's so good. And I think that that blue and white outfit, there's like layers. I think she like takes off a jacket and she's got like even more beading underneath. Like there's, it's a wonderful, like,
Speaker: um yeah her her looks were absolutely stunning in the film i really i think i'm with you that if it's got sequins and beads like i'm there yeah um so they were just especially when it's 80s like 70s it's like a siren song where it's like i see light reflect off of a little chip of plastic and i'm right with you i know please all i ever wanted i so I mean, there's like so many layers to to this and to like, to the whole documentary could talk about it poorly because I'm not good with words today for like a really long time. But I just like, I love that we get to see so many of these people at rest and when they are working, like making outfits and when they are showing like all these things we get to see just so many different layers and I just like feel really grateful that they allowed that to happen because we get to see so many layers of creativity and like they're like feather earrings there's this amazing bait a couple of amazing bathing suits that we see um they're both yellow which I think is amazing like it just feels so so like
Speaker: Of a specific point of the 80s. It's like very bright, saturated colors, right? And then we get these two. God, what else? It's like I want to call out like specific outfits, but there there are honestly so many.
Speaker: There are so many and it's hard to like, because so many of them are like, there is a lot of footage of competitions and there are so many people. And a lot of them are people that we don't necessarily like, no, like we don't you like, we don't get personal with more than like a handful. I will say there was one particular moment that I really loved. I'm trying to remember,
Speaker: what the category was but the performer people started like calling them out in the middle of their performance because it was supposed to be exclusively menswear and they were like accusing the performer of wearing a woman's fur coat and the response of them like defending it was saying it buttons on the right it buttons on the right and I thought that was so Perfectly funny for like what we do. oh yeah. Throw us in the ring and we would also be like, hey, hey.
Speaker: Absolutely. Because it was like a very... elaborate like fully fur coat that you might associate with like a fancy lady like out on the town but that doesn't mean that it isn't a man's coat but um I just thought of like how many times I've had conversations with people who don't know that there is like That that is one way that you can tell whether something is intended to be, you know, a quote like man or woman's garment is which directions the buttons go. But like no one ever makes that mistake in regular life, I feel like. But suddenly people feel like, yeah, like –
Speaker: You know whether, you know, like if it's important to you that it be one or the other. People don't make that mistake when they're just picking out clothes, but somehow they think it's like different.
Speaker: some Somehow rules don't seem to apply to people. Like they lose they lose their awareness when they walk through like the door of like a costume fitting and you suddenly have to tell them very basic information about clothing.
Speaker: It's dear actors, beloveds. You, I don't think that you forget how to put on your pants.
Speaker: No, i I tell myself that there there are so many other things happening for them in those moments with um character and emotion. that But in a fitting.
Speaker: ah no. It's like ah when you're learning your your your track, especially if you're not a professional actor and you're like learning how to juggle all of the things as a performer that you have to do backstage. But like in a fitting, you don't know how to put on pants? Beloved. Yeah.
Speaker: it a number of times also I will not exempt professional performers from knowing how to juggle a lot of things just having worked with a lot of them I will say i don't necessarily think it was trying to just be charitable that's so kind of you to do i'm not feeling very charitable right now you've also ah had a summer and I've been recuperating so it's more it's more recent for you I've been out of the trenches for a little bit.
Speaker: I'm just really, this is so off topic. I'm just really hung up on you know, working with the children. and I, when I say children, I mean anyone under the age of like 25. who have not ever like existed in a world where they had to wear clothes that don't stretch. And they truly some of them truly don't know how to put on a pair of pants because they've never worn a real pair of pants in their life. Well, when we're talking about putting on a pair of pants, at first I was just doing the doing up a button, zipping, you know, up the leg, close it. No, but you are correct.
Speaker: Having a collar... Oh, God. Familiar for quite a few people who are very used to more casual fitting clothing. And I've had to teach. I've had to teach some ladies that sometimes dresses have zippers.
Speaker: Because they did not understand how they were supposed to get a dress on their body that didn't stretch. And I had to go, it has a zipper. You open the zipper, you put the dress on, and then you zip it up. Because that was not obvious to them. They did not know. and we are taking this as a safe space to complain. We really do go out of our way to have very welcoming oh my god i mean i would never never like i don't never mock somebody no sometimes it is a little bit funny and sometimes you'll get a little sneaky laugh out of me like there was one time a student was telling me that he was choking and i was like okay but you're talking are you struggling to speak
Speaker: No. Okay. But I'm choking. And this was for a period show and they had a fully buttoned up collar. Yeah. And they were like, oh, it's just, it's too tight. It's too tight. And I went, of course, let me, let me see what I can do. I could stick my whole hand yeah and I'm not a small woman. I could stick my whole hand up to the middle of my forearm into this person's collar. Just so you know, usually the the the benchmark and of course sensory needs are very different. This person, it was not a sensory need. It was just an unfamiliarity.
Speaker: Yeah. But like generally when you're checking fit for something like that, you want to be able to fit two fingers into the collar comfortably to make sure it's like your size. And I was like, I can fit my whole arm while you're wearing it around your neck.
Speaker: But I do you think you're going to be okay. I think we have to adjust. Just wear it around a little bit. See? But I think that we'll adjust to a new sensation. That's all. Right. And they were fine. But the way that they delivered it was so, dare I say, campy. But, like, I think that they were kind of aiming for a little bit of a laugh while also being a little bit, like, I might die in this shirt. And was like, no, you're going to survive. You might be uncomfortable in the shirt. Yeah. But I don't think... They can get past it. No. I mean, I would never...
Speaker: I would never try to make someone feel dumb for not knowing something because the number of things that I don't know in this world is astronomical. And um for me.
Speaker: But it is... it's it's like every I think it's just that like every time I think I've encountered everything with people like being confused by clothes there's always something new like I've never encountered all of the ways that people will be like unfamiliar with clothes and there's no way to learn how to do any of this stuff other than doing it like that but I think it's just mostly more a fact of the way the casualness with which we live through this world with our clothes. And um that's not to say that, you know, i i do not long for any nostalgic past where people had to like cram their feet into patent leather, Mary Jane's and put on like itchy petticoats and go to church. Like I do not long for these moments, but it is a different relationship with clothes when you're only used to wearing,
Speaker: Things that are very stretchy, made of like performance fabrics and are made for you to like, you know, do cartwheels and somersaults and run around. Like not all clothing is made for these purposes. And that's okay. But sometimes that's the only experience people have ever had.
Speaker: but anyway. was just thinking about how like our thrifting experiences when we were growing up was like stuff from – the first part of the 1900s, ye olde 1900s, but also like the 60s, 80s, right? Like it was old stuff that had those older fabrics and also had the experimental fabrics and like...
Speaker: It felt like death. with them on and Not because they came from someone's estate, but because they're just that type of fabric that's like, really there's no air getting through here. um And now we have like in thrifts, there's like Shein stuff, which is crazy.
Speaker: I know trying to find something that's not 100% like awful polyester, but at the thrift store is a difficult task. And um the number of conversations that I've had with older people that get upset viscerally angered when I tell them that stuff from the early 2000s is vintage at this point because the rules of vintage is just about how many years in the past the clothing is from. There's not a like people use a time period. They think that the word vintage means like it's from the 50s. And I'm like, no, no.
Speaker: Vintage is just anything 20 to 25 years old and older. It's the same thing with classic rock. Yes. I'm so sorry. But like the stuff that we listened to in high school is considered classic rock in the sense that it is from at least 20 years ago. And does it make me feel like I should crawl into a hole in the ground? Of course it does. Of course it does.
Speaker: But it it is the same thing that translates over to close. Yeah, it's it's exactly the same. And I've had so many conversations with people that have argued with me about what is considered vintage and what is not and whether it is like referring to a specific period of time, which it does not. um But like, you know, watching movie,
Speaker: to bring it To bring it back watching the documentary, you know, the very like first thing that we open is that... it is like a black screen with giant letters 1987 the screen and you know ah that's the year that both of us were born some teenagers were getting up to no good getting up to no good and doing beautiful things and i think that it i think other than the fact that like you know
Speaker: we're old so we we remember times in the past um but I think that there is so much more there's so much more documentation of the past now like do you know what I mean like yeah you know if you were born in the 1950s and you wanted to look back on like your parents generation in like the 30s when they were like kids you would have a couple photographs and you know there'd be like a handful of things but there was no video there was no casual video there was not a wealth of photography unless your parents happened to be photographers which most people weren't pay for all that film yeah but like there's just an accumulation of documentation of the past that it makes it feel more accessible and less time has passed when it's not true at all like the same amount of time has passed but like
Speaker: We have these documentaries. We have more evidence of like what people were up to. We can see it with our own eyes. So it feels more present maybe um as opposed to. But I don't know. Maybe someone who's 20 right now would look at something from the eighty s and be completely disconnected from it. I'm not really sure. yeah i don't really know. don't know.
Speaker: buy it Crazy. Yeah. I mean, I can only – mean, I'm but one tiny person. So I can only think about things – you know, I often think about things in relation to myself because, you know, – That's a very natural way to do it. That is a natural way to do it. So when I see that, you know – this documentary is being filmed in 1987. mean, I know it's like filmed over several years, but like, you know, I think about, you know, oh, the other side of the country, like what was my family doing? Like I was, you know, being born at this time, like what were my relatives? Like what was their experience? What was their life? It was not connected to ballroom culture. I know that yeah,
Speaker: I don't know. It's just I feel like I've gone way, way, way, way way off topic here. But um the clothes in the film were excellent. How about that? Excellent. They were great.
Speaker: I feel like everybody's skills at gathering clothing, however they did, and collecting them, which is fantastic. And everybody just had such individual style. Like in the background, you can see people who are still looking good, but aren't necessarily competing. And so they're, they're more casual.
Speaker: And then it seems like the closer you are to the floor, hi, you've got more more, going on. And it's like, if you scroll through the IMDB, there are some stills that are pretty great. And like, there's one of Venus extravaganza.
Speaker: who She had just some great outfits. She really And there are two of them. And her bangs. Her bangs. Like her hair was just yeah so great.
Speaker: And like there's no question that she had a lot happening in her life. But the way that she was able to express herself and just be extravagant.
Speaker: is like a really beautiful thing to see. Cause like there's this, the still that I'm looking at on IMDb is number 36 and she's just got like her hair all teased up.
Speaker: She's wearing this yellow, ah i think it's a yellow dress. She's sitting down on someone's lap. And so I can't like really, it's like a, it's part of a dress that's like zebra mixed with yellow.
Speaker: And it's just like so Hades. So 80s. And it just like looks so good on her. and like So I don't know if it was like an original you know that maybe she like combined some different garments into that or if it's one that she purchased or or got.
Speaker: But it's just like so loud and like fits her. like That's the thing is that... I, I've never really been able to determine like what my style is. Like my style as I've, I've grown up, like I've been pushing back against like certain things that fashion, fast fashion, like wants you to do. Right. So it's like, once I learned to sew, I started making clothes for myself, but I'm not making clothes that are
Speaker: intended for like, look at me at this space that I am taking, that I'm standing in that I'm proud of, you know what I mean? Like, look at me head to toe, like, I am this beautiful bird, like, I'm a gift for you to look at. And so I feel like that is sometimes what people do with fashion, right? Is that they, they're inviting you to look and And maybe they're fighting you in that way too. Fighting your expectations, fighting your limitations by saying, this is the space that I take.
Speaker: There's also this outfit that Venus is wearing um that we see a couple times where it's like this um kind of like lime green and yellow number where she has like matching like, you know, green and yellow bracelets so yeah like these yellow hoops.
Speaker: And she just... There's like this, in and she just embraces like these really bright 80s colors. So she's like this exotic flower that like stands out against like, you know, just like a regular street background.
Speaker: And I just... love the power that these things can have, especially when it's not being pushed on you, when you are reacting. And that's like what so much of what we're seeing in this is, is reacting to the world yeah and what's being forced on people's bodies.
Speaker: And just the the boundless imagination and innovation like on display is like Pretty damn cool, right? Because it's like the people who are sewing their outfits might not be working in a shop sewing.
Speaker: ah Probably not. It's just a skill that they're like, yeah, I'm going to do this so that I can have this thing. that can dress my dreams. I think that my personal style has always been a little bit more look at me perhaps than yours. Yeah.
Speaker: I definitely ah started experimenting with fashion at a very young age in perhaps slightly avant-garde ways. um per Particularly thinking of when I was like four, I had a phase where I would wear like brightly pastel colored Easter baskets as hats every day.
Speaker: ah Because ma I thought it was glamorous. And I love this information. um I probably peaked at that age in terms of my fashion expression and um how innovative I was. But um I do think there's something in particular about like, if you are going to be
Speaker: If you have to choose to engage with this stuff like drag and like the fashion aspects of it, I don't think there's anyone who's going to go through all of that effort and feel like lukewarm about clothing.
Speaker: There is inherently going to be a lot of passion about like how you can use it and what it can do and how you can have fun with it. So it's like they go, they they have to go hand in hand because if you were not interested, you wouldn't be fighting your way into this space and creating this space that no one is giving you permission or asking you to do. So it's like you have to it it's they go hand in hand. There's no other way.
Speaker: and I think it's really kind of nice to see this version of that, because like to to talk about like the the narrative movies that we've been watching, like Devil Wears Prada and so many other things.
Speaker: they didn't convey joy or curiosity. They only conveyed the containment and the control. Even though there's that whole speech that Meryl Streep gives.
Speaker: It doesn't talk about passion passion it doesn't talk about you know fighting for space or to be seen or yeah anything because it's mainstream and because it's homogenized and because it's so many other things that like it's just not a struggle that they have to even consider to like yeah put in the storyline.
Speaker: And like Empire Waste, you know my favorite movie um that I can definitely pull out and describe. Yeah. ah different scenes for sure absolutely that is one that is about you know pushing and taking up space and so it's like it is interesting when people choose to tell that story versus the story about like these are the clothes that I designed for you thank me for it or like You know, I need to make these clothes that rich people can buy and can like, yeah, be worn by a limited amount of people who don't have to fight to take up space. Yeah.
Speaker: And I think it goes back. I can't remember which episode it was that we were talking about. So if you don't know what I'm referencing, then go listen to every single one of our episodes like three times and boost our downloads. But um one there was a conversation that we were having about how...
Speaker: in I think any artistic field, but especially in fashion, like you're an outsider doing something crazy until it gets adopted by the mainstream and then it just gets taken for granted.
Speaker: and that is all of what we're seeing in this. That is every, like everything that we're seeing in, in this is innovation and individuality and passion. And, and we see like, yeah,
Speaker: Even just in our adult lifetime, we've seen an explosion of awareness and interest in drag through drew RuPaul's Drag Race. And like, I know for me, like I have watched a few of the early seasons, but I don't really watch the show. And something that I found really off-putting in some of those early seasons was...
Speaker: Some of the queens that came in and were a little bit more experimental and were not necessarily focusing on beauty were kind of bullied by other queens for not engaging in the sort of beauty contest aspect of what of one facet of drag. And they were like... you know, the the weird alt girls within the drag community. And I was sort of like, but they're doing something interesting and fun. And they're, they're like, really engaging with the absurdity of what all of clothing can be if you think about it long enough. And so it was a little bit
Speaker: off-putting for me in some of those early seasons to see people that were in the drag community that were like unaccepting of other people in their own community just because they were quote like doing it wrong well I mean we do have to say that it is said very matter-of-factly, like by Pepper LaBasia.
Speaker: i think it's Pepper. ah That it's not, some people call it, i think it was Pepper, but it's like, um that it's not a competition, it's a war. Yeah. Like people's emotions get hurt, things get really high and all of that stuff. So it's like, you know, no community is exempt from,
Speaker: from competition to that degree that's true but i think i want people to fight honestly yeah i think that's that's all i'm looking for and it felt engagement yeah like you know the art of war um and so it was just sort of like i guess it it just i mean i know that that shows inherently a competition and that the stakes are high because there's real money to be had and um And a ah career ahead of you after the show. But I was sort of like, can't we have fun? like
Speaker: And I guess the answer was no. um But ah
Speaker: yeah, it was... it's I felt like it was more...
Speaker: I don't know. It seemed more honest and egalitarian in this i documentary about how people because i think maybe because they were literally community in the same city and like and the structure of houses like you are you are working to get into a house into a ballroom family and then so like there's a standard that you're working towards and then you're trying to maintain and exceed that standard. So at least with the art of war and the rules of engagement that does exist to like, there is the community and then there's like the structures within the community. Yeah. um
Speaker: I, I recommend watching this, I think, because, um or at least like reading about how it is potentially exploitative if you don't want to watch it. um And then watching the other documentary that was mentioned at the beginning, but like learn about ballroom from people who are trying to tell you if they're interested in telling you or showing, you know, yeah because it it is a very beautiful culture. And like, there is so much,
Speaker: happening in subcultures that if they're opening the door, take a look, be respectful, but take a look and see the art that is being presented. And like, if people aren't opening the door and saying, no, thank you, leave us alone, then, then leave folks alone. But like, yeah this was just like, I, I feel like I got to see artists who,
Speaker: We're in New York at a really – because New York, I've never lived there. You have. I don't know that I'm built to live in New York. I mean, ultimately, I wasn't either. That's why I'm back. It's like my mom thrived in New York. But like – and she was there in the 70s and 80s. Damn. Before she back here. She had to fight people on the street corners. I mean, she was – Just an aside.
Speaker: And just so you have a costume in mind, my mom is this very petite, tiny little Sicilian American woman with like perfectly coiffed hair. But she started working for United Airlines in 1967, think.
Speaker: So she'd been fighting people since 1967. And she was wearing – because that was when they had the cute little uniforms. And, like, they had the cute little coat and, like, all these – The little hat. The little hat. Like, all of And she would be, you know, tip-tapping up the sidewalk in her little heels with her little suitcase behind her. And she'd have to weed through Hell's Angels. Yeah. to get to her apartment building and like just all this. So she, she had, she had that side, like I'll stab you, leave me alone.
Speaker: But like, she loved New York and i love that for her, but like, there's just this like very visceral reality in this documentary that this is such a high point, a beautiful high point for people's lives where this is something that brings them a feeling of maybe wholeness or something, you know, like being a part of these competitions, being able to go and watch the competitions, like all of these things.
Speaker: it is a part of their life that that brought these specific people who quite a few are no longer with us. um It brought them a lot of beauty in their life that that didn't necessarily have a lot of kindness in it. And so it's like being able to see these artists create and make things when the world was not welcoming it or being kind to them.
Speaker: is incredibly inspiring and just like, what a, what a gift. i don't know to have this like yeah but an insight into these, these human beings for this, this moment.
Speaker: And for people that, you know, do ah have criticism of of how the movie was made or like the goals of the creators. Like I can't, I i cannot begin to, i don't think that it is ah for me to weigh in on any of that. um i've I've had a couple projects that I've done where I felt like I was,
Speaker: tiptoeing into communities that I was not part of. And um the only way that I could feel halfway decent about navigating them was just to like, listen to what people said, and to recognize that these communities are not monoliths, and that every person in it is an individual that's going to have an individual perspective on how or whether I should be there as like a cis white lady. Like some people are, you know,
Speaker: like want to engage and some people are like i don't want you here like this isn't for you and both are valid valid so like you know some people might look at this film and say that like it opened people like it opened up people that couldn't be in New York, but like would have been part of that community if they had been there. Like, or some people might say that it is exploitative because the filmmaker was not part of the community. And like, was, you know, what was her intention? you know, how did she, you know, potentially profit off of the movie and maybe not share it, which sounds like maybe there's accusations of that. But um I don't know that there's
Speaker: one solid answer to land on but I know that a lot of people consider this movie like important to their development as a person so I'm sort of like it's not for me to say right it's it's complicated yeah from being outside and it's like I I do think that this is an important film And like, I was a little bit surprised that I'd never seen it before. Yeah, same. I was like, oops. feels a little bit like a foundational text because there's some really loving
Speaker: um discussion about identity. and things that happen in this that feel like they are aimed at younger versions of themselves um yeah out there. But ah to speak to costuming and commut like things that you might not be a part of, that's a big thing in costuming, right? like And at the level that I've been working at, that you've been working at,
Speaker: There's a lot of people out there who really, and I can't speak to higher, although I feel like it's very similar. There's a lot of, um, Yeah, we'll do better. We'll do better. We'll hire the designer who is from that community. We'll hire a designer who has knowledge on this thing. And then there's a lot of not doing it. And so yeah i I implore any of our listeners who work in the industry or who are costume designers to keep fighting the good fight because like it makes such a difference to...
Speaker: to so many people and like, it sucks, like trying to hold down the line. um Especially when you're having conversations with people within our community of folks who do costuming, who don't really see the point of trying to elevate people from marginalized communities. When you're telling the stories of marginalized communities um and not trying to speak for folks that like we don't understand the nuances because like we can do research I can do the the the few moments of research that I did before this but that doesn't mean that I'm going to know the nuances of things that doesn't mean that i'm going to be trusted with like telling somebody's story right no and so like it is worth it even if you're doing community theater it's worth it
Speaker: d it i mean i've i've encountered a lot of really wild stuff in professional theater so uh nobody's exempt it doesn't have a limit it like goes there's always wait the limit does not exist too uh but um yeah i do think that it if there is ah you know something to progress to be seen. it's good i think it's good to
Speaker: be able to look back on stuff that maybe was really like groundbreaking at the time and say that that didn't do enough because that means that our conversation has moved forward. And so if you can look back on stuff and say, you know, like that person didn't do it the right way or like they, you know, shouldn't have been the one it's like, well, that does mean that we at least have enough awareness that like the conversation has progressed before. to a better place than it was then. and
Speaker: that at least is good, but we just have to like, in the needle yeah, we got to protect progress though. yeah um because ah it'll go away ah the minute you take your eye off the ball. And that's yeah that's our show. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, um hope maybe we'll maybe we'll come up with ah a very light and airy theme for season six. Like movies where nothing bad ever happens and everyone's happy all the time and no one ever makes a mistake. Wouldn't that be great? Gumdrops and lollipops. Absolutely.
Speaker: Well, thank you very much for listening to this season. And thank you for listening to this episode. It's it's hard to talk about real world things. um But I don't know. It was a nice change for my brain. I have to say it was a nice change to see. Yeah.
Speaker: Real people. um And real fashion and real fashion, real things that inspired other people in that that industry in and real ways. This is a solid time capsule of a lot of fashion. So yes, I do think it's worth it's worth it for many different things to watch. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, thank you for listening. Yeah. We'll be back soon. Well, we we're going to take a little break and then we'll be back it's you know with season six. And we don't know what it is yet, so we can't tell you.
Speaker: But it'll be a banger, as the kids say. Oh, the kids. Yeah. Okay. Now I will retire. the mic.
Speaker: I'm going to go put on my grandma wig and my Mrs. Claus glasses. Yeah.
Speaker: Just turn into that old lady emoji. ah Oh boy. all right. Bye. Bye.
