Transcript
Speaker: I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to another episode with your favorite costumers. Audacious for me to say, but I'm going to say it anyway because i feel like playing it. You're welcome.
Speaker: Today's episode is Disney's 2021 Cruella, the live action. That does in case you didn't know just letting you know um i'm gonna read the one sentence synopsis on imdb which is best of luck to whoever put this on there during the 1970s london punk rock revolution young grifter estella transforms herself into the raucous revenge bent cruella de vil
Speaker: I mean, yes. Big broad strokes. this I can't disagree. No, it's not incorrect. It's just woefully incomplete. Yes.
Speaker: There's so much that happens in this movie that is telling the backstory for an animated villain who makes coats out of Dalmatian dogs. Yes. Yeah, this movie, like every 20 minutes, it was like a new movie with like new objectives. And it was kind of like wild to watch, I have to say. It was my first time watching it. And I was like...
Speaker: I was like, okay, I've only watched like an hour and I've already completed like multiple story arcs. Like what is happening in this movie? It's got a lot of momentum. It just keeps going. It just kept going.
Speaker: Wow. And it's like, it's fun. There are like some pretty, pretty great moments where it's like, okay. Yeah. Sure. I would love to see fashion shows like this. Of course. Somebody rolls out of the back of a dumpster and it turns out to be this like massive gown.
Speaker: Yeah. I would love this. That was great. with I also would love the the speed that people sew. Oh my God. yeah like Disney magic hand waving kind of sewing. I would love to be able to plug that into my life. We are like whipping out couture gowns in a couple hours in this movie. There's a scene where we're to understand that Estella is hand sewing because Estella Cruella, same person, um that she's hand sewing like what we think are beads onto an evening gown and then it's done overnight.
Speaker: Yeah, like thousands of beads. Hand sewing? like we see yeah We see her thread like one onto a needle and sew it. And like we watch that.
Speaker: and so we see how long that takes. And then we cut. The next day, i'm assuming. Because like that's the momentum of this designer. is like Get it done. Get it done now.
Speaker: and I was just like, how dare you? What? What? Like, I know I'm not quick with hand sewing, but don't hurt my feelings like this.
Speaker: But like to obviously... It's a skill that you build up speed over time. but But I feel like it harkens back to our episode about the royal tailor. There's only so fast that the human hand can move. Yeah. And like that one was pre-machines. So it's like pre-industrial age. So that one was like exclusively hand sewing. Yeah. And that was hand sewing entire wardrobes. Like, yeah, I would...
Speaker: show me the person who can still like that in real life. I would love to watch them work. And it's not like a challenge, like, hey, fuck you. It's like, I would love to meet these people who can function that fast.
Speaker: But it they can't. It's not it's not actually possible. like there're i I always appreciate when people who have made things that have gained like a lot of like sort of social media internet notoriety when they will publish a little behind the scenes yeah ah like information about like what they were doing. And any time that it's hand-beating sequins, like that kind of stuff, it will be like...
Speaker: This was 3,000 hours of work. And there'll be like a picture of each panel of a garment, like a dress or something. And there's a person working on each panel.
Speaker: and the cumulative 3,000 hours is also split over multiple people working on it at one time. I'm nodding very aggressively for the listener. Yeah.
Speaker: And like there are some people that like I follow on social media who are costume designers and I've watched them kind of grow their careers, I feel like. Or at least I've been able to watch their accounts long enough that they're pulling back um the curtains on their careers maybe a little bit more over the past few years.
Speaker: And so it's been very interesting to like watch certain people grow and like not just their internet following, but like there's somebody who like makes their entire wardrobe and it's and extremely gorgeous and they have like countless pieces and they work for a costume house like in New York. yeah And so they show a little bit of their work from there and it's like really gorgeous stuff and they are extremely precise. And it's like, if I had kind any get up and go like, you know, in my dreams, my trajectory would kind of parallel this person's career. Right. um And I'm just like, how are you manufacturing all of this? And then I have to remember it's social media. Like, yeah you know, you're not necessarily posting every day. Like you're yeah saving up stuff and then showing things. But it's also like, even then this person is probably
Speaker: probably like sewing at night, sewing in the morning a little bit, sewing on the train, like doing that kind of thing to be able to have that kind of momentum to like just create this variety of pieces. Either that or I am truly hobbled. Yeah.
Speaker: ADHD. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I know that I am like, I'm in a fix. I'm in a bind at this moment because like, again, I'm like recovering, but like, i just look at this kind of work and I go, what?
Speaker: Like you don't have a shop for your life. That's incredible. it's It's always fascinating to me when there there are people out there that like just the quantity of production that they're able to do, it's like insane. But then I'm also like, are they doing anything else? Yeah, i don mean maybe I would be that productive if I, you know,
Speaker: didn't do all the nonsense stuff that I do with other hours of my day. Like, yeah, I mean, same. Like, i waste a lot of time too. But I also think that it's, I think that there's a benefit to like being interested in more than one thing. Yeah, I think that it's like good for your brain. And i feel like some people are built to be like, this is what I do. This yes this is the thing that I do. yeah And I know that I'm not built that way. And so very often...
Speaker: When there's a character who is a stitcher, sewist, a soist to tailor um in something like this, like a movie, they are the type of person who this is their one defining feature. And it's a movie. So it's going to be like even stripped down further where it's like, this is what they do. But in this one, it's like this intervention. Yeah. She's got two hobbies. Dualities. But ah it's like, yeah, she doesn't sleep because she's plotting revenge and sewing. And like, i have to kind of go...
Speaker: Not all the way to the beginning of the movie, but my second note for this movie was the first oop was how Cruella was sewing the first time we see her doing it at her industrial in like a close-up. The fabric is being pushed into the machine in like the most bonkers way because being punched. It's literally being pushed under the needle, and that's actually not – how that functions. It's how it functions if you're just sitting down to sew for like the first time, like this is your first week sewing. You think you have to feed it, but there are actually machine parts that are called the feed dogs that grab onto your fabric and pull away from your hands. So you actually kind of pulled towards you in order to make it be flat. So you're not sewing lumps into your fabric. And so the way that this character is sewing, there's just very obvious like bumps. And i was like, hey, hey, hey. Yeah. That's what happens when you sew – when you're in a manic state –
Speaker: where you're only thinking about revenge, I think, and you have lost to your fine motor control like that. yeah It was really wild to watch that moment where you're just like anyone who does know how to sew is just like, what are you trying? Why are you punishing this poor fabric like this? Like, yeah. And it's also like,
Speaker: If we were seeing her in the ugly stage of her teaching herself how to do this, then it would make sense. But we don't see that. We jump between please out between two points of this character knowing how to do crafty, creative things, like instinctually almost. um So we don't see the learning.
Speaker: ah But I did like the first thing that we see, which is at the beginning of the movie, we see Cruella... As a child, it's her origin story and, or at least the origin story that she knows at the very beginning. And i love that they're telling us that she's very interested in fashion in a way that is achievable,
Speaker: Yes. Honestly, those looks on her as a kid are some of my favorite things the They're so cute and like so creative and so achievable if you don't necessarily have the budget or like the backing to have a machine or somebody who's going to show you how to use one.
Speaker: And so it's like she literally just takes her school jacket, her uniform jacket, and flips it inside out so that she's wearing the lining out. But the lining she has painted. Graffitied. Yeah. And so it's got all this character on it. And then at a different point when she is wearing the uniform jacket proper side out, like the shell out, she has all these like brooches and buttons on the safety pins and safety pins. And so she just has like this really cool, creative eye. But it's stuff that she can just collect on her own that isn't like a massive budget breaker.
Speaker: and And there's like there there's like a um montage of her like being drug into the principal's office like over and over again. And every time she's in like a different punk version of her uniform, like one of them, she's wearing like her tie as like a belt. And she's got this like other stuff like wrapped around her like blouse instead of her jacket on like.
Speaker: ah There's one where I think she's got this like big lacy explosion at the neck instead of her tie. She does all of this really cute stuff that I'm like, wow, I wish at 10 I was that creative. And it's just like it's ah it's supposed to begin in 1965 and she's what 11? 10? Yeah. I think it said, if you actually like zoom in on her birth certificate later in the movie, which I did not, it says that she was born in 1952. So she's going to be like 12, 13 maybe. But she the actor is very small that's playing her. Yeah. yeah
Speaker: She looks like she's about 10. But... but Yeah, i I really enjoyed all of that stuff. And that like this was like our first like narrative arc that was like 15 to 20 minutes long is like Child Cruella, which I was like, if this movie came out three years later, there would have been an entire Netflix like season long series about Child Cruella or i guess did I guess Disney Plus, not Netflix. But, um you know,
Speaker: Look out for that. Like, I'm sure if they think that people will watch it, they would make that. um i i can't believe how they handled the plot line with her mother dying. That was I know.
Speaker: And okay, this also leads into a costume related thing, because her mother demonstrates this. This movie is built on cartoons, right? And so like, it's built on a cartoon. And so yeah I want to talk about it later. So put a pin back in that when we come back. But like,
Speaker: What they did with the language of this movie is that not everything is dialed up to 300 the whole time. They're establishing like a recognizable grounded world. And so there are some characters that really exist in the grounded world the way that their costumes are. And so that way it really elevates these other characters when they are way more campy or high fashion or anything. They stand out extra.
Speaker: And so the mom is like... Very cutely dressed, I think. Like we see her once in a flashback as a maid. But in the beginning, we see her just like as a mom in the 60s. And so she's just dressed in like these coordinated outfits. She's very well kept.
Speaker: And she's ah an opposite visually to Cruella as a child even. And this is like Cruella mild, you know. and But her mom is like very normal, normcore. Yeah.
Speaker: But like not... Not boring, just normal. Not boring and not without money completely. Like she obviously is dressed very well. and But like she's very...
Speaker: Bland kind of compared to a lot of things that we see because she's supposed to read so normal. Yeah. And then. And then.
Speaker: yeah And then she gets murdered by dogs by being tackled off of a cliff. Just whoosh.
Speaker: There she goes. it was a little CG tumble like into the sea. Crazy. the full The velocity, the the force, the the physics involved in that moment was like, I was like, what am I watching? You're watching a crazy murder happen, like on a sea swept cliff is what's going on. And then at the at the beginning, we only see...
Speaker: like the silhouette of the person that she's speaking to who like this is happening in front of, we think like, don't know for sure that this person is responsible until later in the movie. And then we get a fantastic closeup of her and the outfit that she is wearing. um And she being Madam Emma Thompson, like, I mean, like, all allll praise to her. Fantastic. The barrens. The Emmas of this movie, the juggernaut of the Emmas. Yes. In this movie. Just force. Wild. also, like, every single piece it.
Speaker: I should start when I'm actually doing it right and like giving myself enough time. I should start counting how many costume pieces characters like Emma Thompson's character are wearing throughout the film. think IMDB said that Emma Stone had like 47 different outfits throughout the movie. So I bet it's got it it. I mean, I don't think it's quite that much just because she gets a little less screen time, but it's got to be you know, it's got to be around there because like,
Speaker: This is one of those opportunities where you get like quick cuts. Like here's a brief moment of a day. Here's another day. This character changes from this thing to this thing in the same day. yeah and like you just see this one crazy piece for one blip of a second and then we're in a different day, a different scene.
Speaker: And but it's like I should start tracking that and tracking if they repeat like certain pieces. um Because like i always think of that later.
Speaker: But yeah like Emma Thompson is this incredible character who is like super duper wealthy, has her own fashion line and also is a Baroness. So she has tons of money. It seems to just do whatever she wants, including having these crazy themed parties at her home where it seems like she's dressing up her staff, like for sure and possibly organizing or costuming other people like guests. Because this first party where ah Estella's mother dies is like at this massive mansion on a cliff. And it's like an 18th century aristocracy, like court. Right.
Speaker: And there's a full on runway fashion show in the middle of the party. So it's not even just a party. No. And it's not the only fashion show that we have in this movie. Oh, absolutely not. have competing passion fashion shows happening at different times, which is just like...
Speaker: How fun, right? To get like hired on to do this job and then to start planning it. And you're like, okay, fashion show number one, fashion show number two, fashion show number three. We're going to grow in in numbers for for this competing fashion show for Cruella. And then we're going to have this number for, you know, the Baroness. And this is how many looks we need for each one.
Speaker: And then we need doubles because we need to have like the original garment. And then we need to have like the torn apart like thing. yeah And then, I mean, there's just so many.
Speaker: massive moments for costumes in this movie that are like fantastical on top of real world.
Speaker: Yeah. This is definitely a movie that like, I'm really glad that I have now seen cause I had not seen it before. um it When it came out, i was my attitude about the movie was i don't understand why this movie exists. yeah Personally, i don't need an origin story for every character, especially when it's a cartoon villain. I'm good. They can be bad. It's a cartoon. That's fine with me. um
Speaker: But the the setting and like... tone and like fashion of it were intriguing but i i did not make a point of seeing it so like it was amazingly beautiful to watch like the the fashion and like the costumes and all of that was great like amazing the movie is crazy the the movie logic is 100 cartoon cartoon Like it really is. And like, it's so Disney does cartoon live, you know, and like all of the live adaptations have kind of felt like that.
Speaker: The one, of course, that I want you to see the most, the two that I want you to see the most. I lied. I'm putting on another one. Cinderella and Beauty and the Beast. it's the same thing where you're like say what now of but like when we were kids we would have accepted it without question yeah of course it was 2d you know but this we're like hold up like wait you said what now you're gonna set this whole house on fire and murder someone like okay um like Like, honestly, that was that moment was less like the the scope of things happening. You're like, didn't bother me as much.
Speaker: The first time that like Emma Stone fully was like, I am going to take on this persona of Cruella now. And the fact that she like,
Speaker: As soon as that happened, so like something happened in the brain of that character. yes That I was like, we turned a corner that we couldn't unturn. Like the tone of the movie changed radically. And I was just like, I don't know what we're doing here. i do love that there was like a self-awareness to it, though, where like Jasper says...
Speaker: why are you still doing that voice? yes Why still happening? But that didn't stop her from doing it. No. And she was like, I'm going to, um you know, Estella's had her time. Now Cruella has her time out of the box. And it's like, oh boy. It felt like I was watching a different movie with like a different,
Speaker: thing to say and it was just I was like I i i can't really follow where this movie wants me to go at this point like yeah I was I really enjoyed watching it from this perspective because it's like then I don't have to be like what are we doing where are we going I don't I'm just like i don't know these are like caricatures of emotion and revenge and you know special interests that are gonna butt heads and do what they have to do to get to the end when Cruella is an independent woman. like we'll get there.
Speaker: it So I was just like, I'm ah sure. and But like, this this is such a fun watch for costumes. It is. It really is. it comes with what's very interesting is like the reality kind of parallels some of the plot. like what actually happens with our costume designer, Jenny Beaven, who we have talked about before. We've done um some of her work before. She's been in the game for a long time, making things that are very iconically recognizable and just beautiful work. And um so she's a pro's pro, you know, like this is not her first walk in the park. Absolutely not. No, she's a professional. And so like, it's really...
Speaker: Disconcerting and upsetting, but not surprising to find an article from Variety from 2021 when this movie came out about something very similar to what happens in the movie. So Emma Thompson's character, the Baroness, who has her own fashion house that Estella starts, she gets hired by, starts to work for. um and Estella starts showing promise, right? Like that's why she got hired is because she broke into ah window at her job in the middle of the night and like made this kind of like Vivian Westwood display. Yes. I wrote like, oh, it's another movie about store windows and mannequins. Like somebody falling asleep in the window. yeah i is yeah guy like Why is that a thing in movies? I'm like, you like when how often has this happened that it must stick in people's minds? It has never happened. Her doing that kicks off this whole story and being hired by the Baroness to basically...
Speaker: be plugged in as a designer but without any credit and so yeah the baroness has like this whole fleet of junior designers i think would be sort of like how they're treated and it's like she sees her job as uh deciding which of their actual creative work she will put her name on It's like she's kind of acting in the role of like creative director, except not at all because she's not doing any direction. She's just saying, make me a good line. Yeah, like that means nothing. they Hate, love, hate, love, you know. And so it's totally feeding into what I don't care for about fashion houses, which is the un the unlabeled, unclaimed labor, right?
Speaker: like that gets submerged, like buried in the sand underneath a named label. And so that's what's happening in this fashion house. And it's like really zeroed in on Estella designing things. And then the Baroness going, oh, I did such a good job designing that, like to her face, you know? Yes. And what's crazy is that that's exactly what Disney did to Jenny Beaven.
Speaker: So this article is very, very interesting. I suggest looking it up. It's by KJ Yosman Variety. And it's titled Cruella Designer Snubbed Over Licensing. Costume Designers Guild Decries Unfair Practices. So this is a thing in case you didn't know that.
Speaker: When you are hired to design a film, a movie, so production, a stage production, you get kind of left behind if they're going to use your designs later. You do not get credit and you do not get compensation unless somehow you have a miracle contract that includes that afterwards.
Speaker: I feel like in theater, like if you especially if you're on like Broadway, I think that there actually might be like more labor protection than there is in Hollywood. That's fantastic. Because I'm very ignorant of this. I'm just not surprised when people screw over costume and like wardrobe side of things. And that's a bummer to say, but it's true. Because like it's it's a common theme.
Speaker: And if you have never experienced this in your costume experience, i I love that for you. And that might sound sarcastic, but it's like, I really genuinely love that for you because it means that you're working in good places. yeah But like very often wardrobe costume is like reduced in a weird way that is very trackable to tons of misogyny, but also just like There's this constant fight, it feels, to prove that it's like a real job, you know? And yeah that there's education behind it, there's skills. It's not just, oh, well, you love shopping. It's like, no, there's so much that goes behind it.
Speaker: And there's so much to make it go. But people act like it's not important when it comes to time to hear... um decisions or like, you know, it really depends on like a director or an artistic director to allow the space for a wardrobe team or costume designer to have equal weight with like other designers somehow. i might not be saying it correctly. No, but you are though, but like you are. um But, and I think that it is part of this space space
Speaker: that we are in where we are working so closely with actors and what they need. And it becomes a thing where everybody feels like they can throw their two cents in to your work and that your job is like a supportive role rather than a creative role. Sometimes is how yeah it seems like people view it. yeah,
Speaker: um the idea that you would like go up to a different designer in a different department and tell them how to do their job is not a thing that many of us would presume to do. But people feel really comfortable telling us what we should do with our jobs. And it's really weird.
Speaker: you mind if I tell a story that I'm sure I've told you before because you you know about it? ah Sure. There's a previous place that I worked. This is a burned bridge and it's a justifiably burned bridge.
Speaker: um Where part of the role that I was acting in was as like ah overall maintenance for for a collection um of costumes. And so that means that it's under Two people's purview, the costume department, right?
Speaker: Like if you're going into that section, let us know your needs because we are responsible for organizing, for cleaning, for maintaining, for repairing, for renting, organize, like all of it falls to us. yeah And so like let us know if you need something and we will happily help you find it. And like don't just shove it back on a rack. Don't you know knock something so it falls on the floor and then never pick it up. like If you are borrowing something and putting it on somebody's body, please clean it before you return it so that we don't have...
Speaker: issues down the line, right? Like moths or just overall maintenance issues because like somebody sweat into a wool, you know, jacket and then it sits on a rack. Like that's really gross to put on somebody else. So please don't do that to us. please And like, if you can't clean it, let us know so that we can. And so, you know, I had generated all this paperwork and updated like agreements for people to sign, sent out emails just to be like, these are the new policies, you know, please just let us know. And we're happy to help you out.
Speaker: And then I heard through the grapevine that someone during my off season was going to come in and just take things for a show that they were producing. So I emailed this person and said, hey, just would you mind filling out this paperwork and like, you know, just reading over the agreement and before you return things to racks, please put it on an extra rack so that I can...
Speaker: Put it where it actually go it actually goes. And just like, please do this. And then they came back and said, oh, well, I've just been taking stuff whenever for years and years and years. So it's like really weird that you'd be, you know, trying to kind of. Oh, my God. Yeah.
Speaker: And I went and mentioned this. Not, oh, this is what's happening right now. But as a question, has this ever happened before to the person who had built this warehouse and this collection? ah Has it been practice for like, you know, these folks to come in and just take things during the off season whenever? And their response was, hell no. Like, what are you talking about? And I was like, uh-oh, this makes me think that it's been happening behind your back anyway. yeah And then I asked this person,
Speaker: who was taking these things and who had a response when I said, hey, can you do it in an organized way that respects our work so that we can come back to like a clean space or we can step in and clean this stuff for you? Like just, it's very easy, right?
Speaker: I asked them, would you go into a scene shop and just take tools? And their response was, oh my God, no. yeah so I was like, can you please interrogate in yourself you okay? You think it's okay to do this to me and not to them?
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. Because it's amazing. It's phenomenal. And it really stops people in their tracks when you confront it and go, why are you okay doing that to me, but not to a place that you seem to have this like very different opinion when we are just two sides of the same coin, like people who build sets, who build lights, technicians, we are all technicians. We are all on the technical side of what we do. It's just, you have less respect for what we do because there are runways that show this stuff.
Speaker: Well, and it's just like, I think that people have this opinion of like, well, I wear clothes every day. so how, you know, like, and I'm like, well, sure. Like, I live in a house, but that doesn't mean I know how to build one.
Speaker: But my favorite thing is like, and this is going to make me sound like I'm such a pill and like maybe I'm not. But like, I think every costumer, every everyone who's worked wardrobe has at least one experience, maybe in the beginning of their career, maybe if it's only community or, you know, like whatever, like theater, or it's like a first time actor in a movie, it's a student film, anything like that.
Speaker: I think everybody's had at least a similar experience to where you have that kind of conversation, but you come to it because, you know, you've got, maybe it's a period outfit where let's say it's a ah male set of clothes. like you know this is You're dressing somebody who's supposed to be perceived as male and pants are supposed to be worn up at the waist. like There's a collar that needs to be closed, a tie that needs to go in, but that's not how people dress today.
Speaker: And so right you have to step in as a wardrobe person, yeah as a costumer, and you have to adjust the clothing and educate your actor on how this is supposed to sit on their body that it is supposed to make them move differently. That's part of informing their character. No, you're actually not choking to death because the the collar is buttoned. I can fit my whole hand in there. You're going to survive. You know, like there's all this stuff. And it's like that thing of like you said, well, I wear clothes every day. And it's like, do you know, I just had to teach you how to put on pants.
Speaker: Yeah. well Right. Which is like, ah it's, it's a really, really weird thing. I don't even know what to call it. It's like a weird mindfuck. And it happens every time. So there's clearly something like systemic about it that makes it happen every time. But on the flip side...
Speaker: so many people talk about designers with this like effete hair of like a costume designer. And it's like Sandy Powell, all these people who dress a certain way because they are their character in the world. And they're very conscientious of how they present themselves. So they have very interesting haircuts or hair colors or very specific glasses frames. Like, you know, they're very deliberate about the language that they are walking through the world with as a costume designer, a fashion designer, any of these things.
Speaker: And so it's like, you're made into a caricature. And then depending on who you are, maybe you lean into it, because it's like, yeah, I am a character right now. And I'm very good at creating characters. So here's my advertisement of what I can do on my body.
Speaker: But then... Even when you have that, going back to Jenny Bevan specifically, even when you are a legend in your field, you are really, really good at what you do. You are a recognizable name with an impressive CV. Massive track record.
Speaker: ah You will still be... run over by a massive company like Disney. yeah they had Disney and Jenny Beaven had this like plan pre-COVID to make um a fashion line based on Cruella.
Speaker: Yeah, which is like not perfect. Yeah, like this is not limited to Jenny Beaven, FYI. But then COVID happened. And so the plans just kind of fell off the face of the earth until a couple years later, or like a year later,
Speaker: Somebody, and I'm quoting loosely the article, a friend of Jenny Beaven's sent an Instagram like story over and was like, hey, did you know about this? Disney had made a fashion line with rag and bone or whatever that was Cruella themed and had never contacted Jenny Beaven about it. Using reference like reference to her work, her designs, and she didn't get credit. And she certainly didn't get compensated. And this is not limited to her. Even within the article, there's a few other designers listed because the whole importance of the article is that this is so prevalent that the costume designers guild stepped forward and was like, you've got to stop.
Speaker: Which is like, if I were the head of the guild, could you imagine? Because that's, you got to stop. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, it's it's interesting because like, I mean, we know now like a little bit just because people have like mentioned things in the press, like in the most minor ways that like,
Speaker: I think it's it's become a little bit more known because of these like massive like franchise films like Marvel and like Jurassic Park, ah like the the new movies. But listen, i'm I'm not going where you think I'm going. I'm not going where you think I'm going. But that there that there are things built into the actors' contracts about participation in...
Speaker: video games in movie, like ah theme park attractions and like specials and like things are spelled out that like you are going to participate in all of these things that are not actually you acting in the movie. They're on top of it. And the sort of massive pay disparity that comes with that participation based on who they think they can low ball. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: essentially. And it's the same thing with this creative work as the designer. Like, right before we started recording, when we were just like, just kind of like, oh, we're going to talk about this thing on the episode. It's like,
Speaker: The character of Cruella is synonymous with the design of Cruella. That black and white hair, the big like coat, the fact that it's like she wants a coat made of Dalmatian. like Those are design choices that somebody made at some point because this character has existed for like 60 years, like visually, yeah like longer, but like visually for Disney, this character has existed for like 60 years.
Speaker: And, If you want people to think like, oh, this person's dressed like Cruella, all you have to do is put them in that black and white wig and put them in like a Dalmatian coat.
Speaker: Everybody knows what it is because the design of the character is synonymous with the character. And it's the same with all kinds of stuff like You'll see like artwork online of people that are just like illustrators or like graphic artists and they will just draw like a silhouette like line drawing of a thing and like fill it in one color and you automatically know. Exactly.
Speaker: Julia Roberts from Pretty Woman. That's Ferris Bueller from Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Like the design of the costume is synonymous with the character. And that is what costume designers have given to all of us through their work by creating these looks.
Speaker: It's just, it's, it's so interesting to see where that value begins and ends. And like, it the When you start to peel it back and start to learn more about it, it's kind of endless. And like it's really complicated.
Speaker: But there's just a level of, like I'm going to say respect, that just like kind of disappears about the work. And then it just gets monetized and profited from without including the team that created it. yeah And it's it's really...
Speaker: It's disheartening and it's it it builds on so many things that you witness in the work, right? Because, like, of course we're we're taught and it's true that, like, it's not about us, right? Like, when we're doing a job, it's not about us. But, like, our work is valuable, clearly, because...
Speaker: It's being replicated everywhere. money Yeah. Like these are things that are reproduced into Halloween costumes. They're constantly used for so many different things. And there's just no compensation for that. And so, but it's like.
Speaker: Again, to go back to this article, um the head of CDG at the time, I don't know if they still are, um Salvador Perez Jr. is interviewed towards the end of the the article. And there's a quote ah towards the end that says, producers, directors, musicians, actors, and even first ADs get a percentage of profits from their work.
Speaker: Costume designers who help generate additional revenues from productions deserve to be compensated for the additional income earned. We were hired to design the costumes for the show, not the merchandising. Which like the placement of that second piece, the we were hired to design the costumes for the show, not the merchandising,
Speaker: the placement in that in the article is a little confusing to me because it feels like we should continue the conversation from there. That's not really an ending statement. um And it almost feels like it's in conflict with what's right before that. Right. But I think it's like, i yeah, it's kind of clumsily put in there. But it's true where it's like the contract is just for this thing and then it ends and it doesn't include the life of the thing. yeah And i don't care for that someone who works – in a part of the field.
Speaker: I'll be on sabbatical, if you will. But like, you know, it's, it's just disheartening. And this movie, it is interesting, because like, it is you know, the origin story for a villain from a cartoon. But it really does hone in on something real, which is in certain industries, people doing the work, and then somebody turning around saying, I did that. And taking credit for it and making money off of it. And like it it does personally help me be on the side of Cruella because I'm like, yeah, get yours. But I will say that i the most the most resonant line that Emma Thompson has, I think for me in the movie, is there's like a scene where the two of them are in the car together. And it's kind of our like Devil Wears Prada at the end. Like everybody wants to be us kind of moment between the two of them.
Speaker: um But Emma Thompson says, like, you have the skill and talent to have your own label, but whether you have the killer instinct remains to be seen, essentially. and she's not wrong.
Speaker: that having skill and talent is not the only thing that you need to be successful in this type of industry. you in some like, unfortunately the environment that we are in lends itself to the Baroness figures of the world being successful because they will step on anyone they need to, to get where they want to go. um But, you know, we have to create a more equitable society for everybody. The work never ends. But like, she wasn't wrong saying that in the way that things are now,
Speaker: You need to kind of act like her to get where she is. So I don't agree. Like, it's not a world that I want to live in. but it's not unreal.
Speaker: It's not the it's not not the world that we do live in. And it's like with the industry that we work in, it really is all about... how many times you will say yes. Right. And it's like, we're often told don't say no or like, yeah you know, reserve your nose, which is like to a point, a really good set of advice. Like there are points where no is absolutely what you should be saying. um But it's like, you literally have to leave your phone on and say yes to anything that comes your way in order to build enough of a CV in order to kind of climb
Speaker: anywhere. You're basically putting cardboard boxes on top of each other to try to get to a skyscraper. And it's like, you may never get there. You may just, it just might be lateral moves, you know, you never know. right And that is kind of, for me, one of the perpetually frustrating things about our field is that I've talked to so many people and like, I'm at a community level, right? Like if I were where I am physically located and with the work that I would be interested in doing, if I were to say yes to certain jobs, I could get to like a Lort theater, but it wouldn't be like a certain level. It would be like a regional, you know, like on a certain grade of scale. Right.
Speaker: But it's like, I'm not going to be working Broadway shows. I'm not going to be trucking it to LA to be doing all these different things on set because a I don't have the drive anymore um because I don't want to be working the hours that a lot of these amazing people have to work.
Speaker: yeah And like, that was an issue that came to light um to people who don't work in the industry or who are, who were just learning and entering the industry during COVID in 2020. I'm sure we talked about this a long time ago, but like it it came to light because there was a big thing that Broadway released about things that have to change, but also like in the movie industry, People were talking about things that have to change because costumers are there, like wardrobe is there before anybody else and after anybody else. yep
Speaker: And that's true in theater and in film. Like maybe you have a specific run that doesn't require that. But if you think about it you break it down, costumes can't set things on autopilot. You have to...
Speaker: like I keep going back between the term costumes and wardrobe, but it's like costumes. That's just like how we refer to it. That's how refer to it in the theaters that I've worked in. But like you have to set things in actors' ditty bags, by on their racks. You have to preset costumes. yeah you're You're cleaning, is organizing, preparing so that whenever when when the day actually starts, everything's ready to go. Everything's ready. And that means going all over the the theater, right? like You have to ah prepare all of the laundry, set it out, put it away. You've got to like set up all your baskets or your racks for quick changes wherever they need to be. like All these different things. You have to
Speaker: check that everything is where it needs to be so that when the actors come, everything is where it needs to be. And then if there's just one thing missing, you have enough ability to go track that one thing, not 500 things. And at the end of the day, you have to do ah laundry unless you have a specific crew for laundry, but that's still your crew who's going to be there after everybody else is gone yeah because you have to be there as long as the machines need to run, you know? And so like frequently first in, last out.
Speaker: And so like in LA, in Hollywood with movies, people were just going to sleep under the costume racks because they weren't going to have enough time to drive to their housing and then back. And they were there so late that they were freaking exhausted that it was unsafe for them to drive. And the production is not...
Speaker: paying for someone to drive you around. No. And they're sometimes not even paying for housing, which is- Oh, definitely not. Like if you're local, they're not paying for that. Like, no so you, you just kind of live where like, you know, obviously some stuff is made like at studios, but if you're like on location, you could be like out in the middle of nowhere And like, I remember, cause I, I don't have any significant work history in film or TV, but I was talking to someone when I was living in New York, I was talking to someone who was like my peer, but had been living in the city much longer and had like a longer work history in New York. And I, and we were talking about doing film and TV, which she had done and and I had not. And the one piece of advice that she gave me was, um,
Speaker: never accept a job that's self-report to set outside of normal working hours. And so basically what that meant is don't take a job where they won't pay for you to get like an Uber to the set if you have to show up at 4 a.m., which is often when people are showing up. Yeah. And those are the stories that people were telling in 2020 of like, I mean, people were talking about how Everybody they know has gotten into a car accident at some point yeah because they're driving exhausted. exhausted And like production companies will just pay the fines so that they don't give you time to eat.
Speaker: Yes. And so that's the thing that companies will get away with is just like not feeding the bodies of the people who have to do work and labor and just going like, ah, we'll pay the fines because we can afford it.
Speaker: So there's just like a lot of dehumanizing stuff that happens in any field. Like this is not limited to this at all, but it's just like, you know, the reality that exists right now in the world that we're in is that this is really hard work. And like,
Speaker: For it to be devalued in the various ways that it is by production companies, by sometimes audience who just don't really understand and just like don't know what goes into it and just kind of swipe it away a little bit in the same way that the companies will.
Speaker: It's just like it's worth stopping and talking about every once in a while. And it was kind of interesting to see that conversation play out. if just In this movie? And then have it play out in real life afterwards? Okay.
Speaker: Bananas. So – ah Should we talk about – I feel like we should talk about our favorite looks from this movie because we've talked a lot about less stuff fun less fun stuff. Okay. I did not even get to like describing all of the things that I love. So there's probably more.
Speaker: oh I mean this is like we're picking like one or two but there's like count. Like there's so much There's many good looks. So like, you know, we're gonna we're going to pick like one or two each. Okay. Fantastic. so Yes. So I have to – I have to figure out what my second will be, but there is a piece that is kind of my favorite because of how it works within the plot and how it looks like I really, really deeply enjoy it. So do you have one that's like you're burning? This is your favorite, favorite, favorite.
Speaker: Okay, so I mentioned before that honestly, the like kid Cruella school looks were kind of my favorite because it was this like wonderful foreshadowing of her being this like punk designer. And the fact that it was happening like before punk existed was sort of like, who cares? um But I think I know which one you're going to pick for your favorite. So I'm going to pick a different one. Because I think that that one is also one of my favorites. So I think I really enjoyed
Speaker: the um the look when You see it for like 20 seconds. When Cruella is doing all of her big publicity stunts and they like...
Speaker: they like block the doors of the Baroness's car from opening. And she's like stuck in her car and Cruella climbs up on the roof. And it's the most like Vivian Westwood look, I think possibly in the movie, she's got this like military jacket. That's just like absolutely like vomited on with like metals and chains and like all of this stuff. And then this giant, like, ruffled ombre skirt that's like 20 feet long so it like covers the car when she like unfurls it but it like it just closes just enough that you can see Emma Thompson's face in the window trying to get out angry little face in the window yeah I think that one was pretty spectacular and like a close runner up is
Speaker: the actually the makeup that she wears on that sort of red carpet moment where she's like painted her face black but her actual like skin tone is peeking through in the lettering where it says the future um so I think those are my favorite so I have three that I'm going to say so ok my my big one is yes the beetle dress or the moth the moth dress yes because i love how that plays into the plot one of yeah costumers fashion design anybody who works with fabric one of your biggest fears is destroying your stuff and so to have this plot of getting these like large
Speaker: Larval sacks, whatever they are. Pods.
Speaker: What's the word? Chrysalis. Yeah. Like these these massive box with like just like stacks and stacks and stacks of chrysalis. These moths is so incredible because when it gets delivered, everybody just thinks that these are beautiful beads that are like this shiny, amazing, light catching beads. And that's the gown that like the gown exists, right? But it's these things that we think are beads being hand sewn on top of the gown. So that's the scene that it's like, are you for real? But like, she's supposed to have sewn all of these overnight. And each one is maybe like half an inch long. Yeah, they're tiny. I need you to be so fucking for real right now. Please don't put this out there. I hate you. And like, then the next the next time we see it essentially is it's getting put into a vault because like there's a whole plan to make the baroness think that this is about to be stolen by cruella so she puts all these gowns the whole collection into a vault and then when the show is supposed to be happening and people are supposed to be getting these dresses on they can't get into the vault and when they finally open it
Speaker: These massive clouds of moths come out and everything left behind has been eaten by the moths. And I was just like, for a- It was a plague. oh for a set piece like that, that is yeah supposed to be visually impactful and move the plot. Yeah. I was like, this is such a great device. Like it's a massive piece of revenge. And like, it's also supposed to be this like highlight, you know, just all these different things. I just really enjoyed how it looked. And how it played into the the story.
Speaker: And then my second one is actually the outfit that she's wearing when she has that face paint. This is the future. or the yeah um So she's got this like she comes in on the back of a motorcycle.
Speaker: And she's wearing this leather jacket that has clearly been like cut up and altered from a pre-existing leather jacket. And it's like a doublet.
Speaker: And it is a tailored doublet made out of leather. And like she also has like red glitter on her lips. And it's just like... such a cool look also I'm a sucker for like medieval stuff or renaissance mixed into like modern shapes like just kind of anything that's super tailored but like has an exaggerated silhouette that's mixed in with modern clothing I'm a sucker for and then my third is there's so many beautiful costumes so I really really do recommend watching this movie because there's just so much to track that I'm not going to bother to go back to either the Emma's for this one I'm going to go to one of the dog accomplices
Speaker: Oh, there there's a scene where Horace and Jasper are dressed up like, like they're they're breaking into the Baroness's house, I think to like, um look for raccoons and rats.
Speaker: And Horace is like, yeah you got to watch out for these raccoons and rats. And way down the hallway, like he gets caught by security, who, by the way, the wigs, this is in the 70s now, I think. And so it's like, yeah it's 75. So the wigs for a lot of the men are very, very like shaggy, but long. And some of them are just so funny. It's not that they're bad. It's that there's just like something slightly exaggerated about them. Yeah. Yeah, there's like varying levels of the cartoonishness of this movie. And it's like subtle, but there's like an uncanny valley that like you pick up on a little bit. And it made me laugh every time. But there are these three security guards who catch Horace. They're walking him down the hallway and he's like, you don't understand.
Speaker: Like the rats, the raccoons. And then he looks down the hallway past them at this tiny little silhouette of this little tiny dog. He goes, the hybrid. And then runs and the camera cuts to the dog. And he's in an outfit that they made for him to make him look like a hybrid raccoon horse. rat raccoon it's so funny my god and i was just like okay that's really fun and if i had made that little costume for that dog i wouldn't stop talking about it because it's so cute yeah i thought you were gonna pick the garbage dress
Speaker: Oh, I love that dress. Don't get me wrong. like That's why I didn't mention it because I was like, oh, it's definitely going to be one of hers. So um the idea that she gets like a dumped out of a garbage truck into a pile on the ground and everyone's like, oh, my God, this filthy trash is everywhere. And then Emma Stone emerges from the trash. It's like...
Speaker: It's extremely Vivian Westwood and it's also extremely like early career Lady Gaga yeah in those moments, which I think is also like influenced by Vivian Westwood in her own way. um i want more fashion shows like this the same way that the fashion shows we've seen in other films in this season. we've talked about wanting to see that they're a little bit more theatrical, right? Yes. And it's like ones that exist now are theatrical in their way, but they don't necessarily... The ones that I have seen don't necessarily feel like there's like...
Speaker: a story involved or like a wildness or like set, you know, the way that we've been seeing them used in these movies. Yeah. So they would be like really compelling if we could see stuff like this for real. Cause if a garbage truck pulled up to us, if we like flew out to New York for fashion week and we're like, New York, New York, and then a frigging garbage truck backed up and we're like, home boy, it's, this is going to rough. And then,
Speaker: this woman like stands up and then steps onto the back of the truck and as the truck drives away the the gown unravels unfurls from her unfurls thank you so you can see this massive train oh come on i will say i did work uh locally i did work a concert i was like on like event staff like very briefly at this venue and I did work a concert where this woman was the opening act to a much more established musician and we were out in the country because we were at a winery
Speaker: She got so they have because we were in such a remote location, they had um like a medic team like on staff on reserve in case someone had something happen to them.
Speaker: She convinced the driver of the ambulance to like put her on the stretcher in the back and drive up to the venue and they unloaded her from the stretcher like with her microphone and then she started singing and it was so delightful and that is so funny fantastic because it's just like phil and i were talking about this recently where I mean, this is such a sidestep, but it does come back where it's like, yeah I think a lot of audiences have this expectation that everything is always going to be perfect. And so it's like, yeah there can't be any like organicness to it. And there's like a lot of music where people, and I'm not going to directly quote this person, but like so many years ago,
Speaker: had this like complaint that, oh, well, everybody thinks that they can sing. But their expectation and their belief of what singing really was, was very limited to like, if you're on Broadway and you sing like you're on Broadway, then you are a real singer. and it's like, i I think that human history would disagree. and it's also kind of sad that we don't have as much rawness in how we produce things. um Because you can connect with it differently. I'm not saying that like the highly produced things of today mean that people aren't talented. It's just that there's a different expectation from audiences now that things have to be 1000% polished. Yes. Or it's considered like a failure. Exactly. And it's like I think that there's just so much missing from that. And like there's an adventure that's just not there because what's being served to you is just like this –
Speaker: It's almost like homogenized in its perfection. And so it just like lacks a little bit of soul for me. And so having experiences like this, you get genuinely surprised. You get like, yeah oh, and then you can engage with it. In a way that you weren't preparing for, where you were going to go, oh, golf clap, you know, instead you're like, oh, that was great. Like, that's crazy. And like anything could have gone wrong, but it didn't. it like It rewards you for having gone there in person and seen the thing. Whereas is like if something is perfectly produced, like you might as well just like watch it on TikTok at home. Yeah. In a way. Yeah.
Speaker: you You want a variety of these things. You want there to be art that feels like art. And sometimes you're not invited to the whole process. And that's okay. You know, like you want it to be the something that makes you feel something. And that's different for everybody. So, you know, you're not like wrong if you have a certain preference. It's just like I miss some of these opportunities. And so this movie definitely offered some of them in this like, you know storytelling kind of way, which was very fun. It was the spirit of punk in London in the 70s.
Speaker: um There's also this other thing that I want to talk about, which isn't specifically the costume pieces, because of course we could go on forever. There's so many. But it's this thing of designing a live action version of costume.
Speaker: um Yeah. a nation and so like a perfect example is um disney princesses at disneyland like this is a disney product so why not talk about disney for the longest time the cast members costumes because like i went when i was like four years old right and then right again when i was like thirteen and then again when i was like twenty they used to be very flat And like very often when you're buying costumes that are like mass marketed, they're very flat, meaning that the fabric is just like a satin that is one specific color and there's no texture, there's no overlay, there's no finishing. It's just one flat color and you're reproducing a cartoon. So like...
Speaker: why not The cartoon was one color, so the dress is one color. And so that has started to change with Disney, which creatively I thought was really interesting. And they started changing it in their parks where now the cast members' costumes have textures and like different fabrics that aren't just like a lightweight satin. There are actually many different fabrics in many different tones of one color with like different accessories that have so many layers so that they feel...
Speaker: more There's a reality that's lended there. So it's like yeah the costume is just like a simplified version when it's a cartoon. And then when it's in real life, here's all the details that you might not be seeing.
Speaker: And I recently watched the Avatar The Last Airbender on Netflix, the live action version. Oh, oh, God. Why? Well, not the movie. There's a show. Oh, okay, okay, okay. no no got you Gotcha, gotcha. It's a more recent product. And like, maybe people have issues with it. I'm not aware. i just needed something to watch. so They kind of had a mix of that where they were reproducing the cartoon iconic costumes and there were differing degrees of texture and layer and like all these different things happening so that it kind of like stood out when there were ones that were just flat because like there's a lot of color symbolism in that show of like what culture you come from. wear this
Speaker: And so... There were many, many costumes and some had tons of details and some were just more based on silhouette information. so this movie is definitely one of those things where it's like...
Speaker: If you watch it, which you should look at what this designer and this wardrobe team, because on IMDb, this wardrobe team is massive. There are so many people listed.
Speaker: And like, it's, I think one of the longest lists that we've had in one of the movies that we've covered, which is very cool. Cause there's just so many people listed. um you you can really see how much work went in there because they chose not to do something flat. They chose to find something with life.
Speaker: And like your eyes are never overwhelmed because of the skill of the people pulling these things together. They're making a world that makes sense. You don't have to like close your eyes and like, oh my God, be overwhelmed by it. And it came from a world that's from a 2D animation as the inspiration. So like that, it's just a very interesting thing to track with all these like live live action adaptations that are happening now is to see how people translate these like flat images into something real.
Speaker: And so yeah that was fun in this movie. It was. Yeah. Yeah, this movie was a journey. it was a journey. But it was a visual feast, as it were. Like, there's always something on screen that you wish you could have seen for longer to appreciate it. But there's so much because as I said, every 20 minutes, this is a new movie with a new set of objectives. Yeah. That there simply isn't time on screen for all of the stuff like to get its glory that it should.
Speaker: so like i would love to see like an exhibit of this ah just to like appreciate things and like take time and ah recognize the skill of the designer in her contribution to creating this. I don't remember. i mean, this movie kind of came out.
Speaker: In the midst of COVID. So I feel like it kind of. Didn't really get its moment. I don't know. how it would have done. ah Without that.
Speaker: But I feel like. it It came. And then it kind of went. and Because that was like just the nature of. Entertainment at that time. And I feel like we were also. Really inundated with live action. Adaptations too. Especially from Disney. Like they got to slow their roll on that. And I think I saw it.
Speaker: I said this in the last episode that like I saw this on an airplane. So yeah, I didn't see it the first time in the way that it was meant to be seen. I was like, I just desperately need to watch something on this long flight.
Speaker: There's probably a bunch of people out there who've only seen this movie like on their phone. So that's even smaller than an airplane screen. So you know, like, it certainly wasn't on like, didn't I don't know if it even got like a big theatrical release or if it was like sort of straight to Disney Plus.
Speaker: I don't remember. i can't remember either. Yeah, it said it came out in 2021, so I feel like there's a decent chance that it didn't really get a the Although, no, I think it said there was some kind of red carpet, that it was like the first post-COVID red carpet that Disney did specifically. So there was something in the theater, but I doubt that very many people saw it yeah in the theater just because of the timing.
Speaker: So, yeah. Maybe some kind of re-releases in his future, I don't really know, but ah It was certainly a movie that I have now seen. will say Well,
Speaker: I'm glad that we added it to to our run for this season. I mean, it was the perfect choice for this season. Like it it highlighted a lot of ah wrongs about the fashion industry in like a way that I don't like some of it was clearly intentional. I don't know if all of it was intentional. And it like, it really did spark a lot of conversation. And so i hope that it sparks some consideration in his audience whenever it gets watched.
Speaker: I don't know. Right. Oh God. Okay. That was Cruella. Well, all right. So that was Cruella, right? 1977, punk, punk, punk. So we're going to go slightly backwards in time in terms of our setting and just travel ah about 10 years back to 1960s London for our next movie.
Speaker: We're going to be watching Last Night in Soho, which came out the same year as Cruella. And in this case, we follow an aspiring fashion designer named Eloise in the present day, who's able to sort of slip back in time to 1960s London, where she encounters this sort of mysterious, glamorous woman named Sandy. ah But things don't stay glamorous, I'll say, and maybe leave it there. Mystery, mystery. Intrigue. to talk about this yes oh this is a movie that like affected me differently than other ones have where I was like I want to talk about it so yeah I'm excited to re-watch it and re-explore the not so glamorous on offer yeah
Speaker: I it's a good companion piece to Cruella in many ways, but like maybe slightly more based in reality, even though it literally involves like fantastical paranormal activity. Yes. And there's a lot of technical stuff that's going to be really great. Yes. Oh, it's going to be so fun. it's a yeah Thank you for listening to this episode. We'll see you on the next one. Yeah. Thanks. See then.
