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Episode 16: Starrcade '98
39 Plays5 years ago
For much of 1998, the two factions of a fractured nWo have battled for dominance. Now, at Starrcade '98, it's time to finally see which faction reigns...wait...not a single match addresses that? Oh. Well, we can at least see if this Goldberg guy can retain both his title and his undefeated streak, I guess. WCW's been building that angle for more than a year, so there's no way they can screw that up, right? ...I feel like I've said that before. Plus: Another triangle match, except that means something almost entirely different now! And when will I learn to stop wishing WCW would put more promos on these shows? For all this and more, let's go to the ring!
Music by Michael Gary Brewer at https://www.instantmusicnow.com/
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts' Confusion
00:00:02
Speaker
Oh, John's Ralphis now. Oh, okay. I'm going to be really confused by that file. Yeah. I don't remember when we invited Ralphis for an interview, but the cover star, we can get to be on a show probably. Yeah.
Meet the Dramatic Hosts
00:00:43
Speaker
Hello everyone, and welcome to Let's Go to the Ring, where we take a look at the good old days, and not so good old days, of World Championship Wrestling, series by series. I'm your host, Bob Moore, and I look to the skies for a podcaster, someone to speak fear into the black hearts of the same men who booked Starrcade. But he's not in the skies, he's seated right here next to me, Alec Bridget. I bring hope to all.
Holiday Humor and Stress
00:01:09
Speaker
We're also joined by the Prevailer of Good, with a voice hopefully not of silence, and a mission of promoting Scorpahawks. This is Matrix Mullens. Hi. Truly an inspirational hero to us all.
00:01:28
Speaker
How's it going, guys? Good, good. Holiday preparation all, uh, driving everybody crazy yet. I just think it's easier just to wrap people up instead of presents and then just unwrap them with everything in front of them. That is not a bad idea. I should try that with my dad. I'm scared of what do you know comes doing, which is skipping right to New Year's Day? Yes. Close enough. Yep. 28th Happy New Year. Why not?
00:01:57
Speaker
Time and face are relative.
Starrcade 98 Main Event: Goldberg vs. Nash
00:02:00
Speaker
Tonight, we're taking a look at Starrcade 98. Who's next? The challenge has been issued. Last year, Goldberg was just starting his career and facing Mongo in the midcard. Tonight, he is the world champion with an undefeated streak of 173 matches, facing his challenger, Kevin Nash, in the main event. That is one heck of a swift rise to prominence.
00:02:24
Speaker
Yeah, that is a big jump. I win every other day. And it should be good. I mean, WCW spent over a year building this guy up. There's no way that they'll screw this up and waste over a year's worth of effort. Again. I mean, they've surely learned their lessons by now. You would think so. Surely. Yeah, I did. That's why I said it. Yeah. Goldberg doesn't have face paint in this one.
00:02:53
Speaker
No. Does he ever have face paint? I know, but I was just saying there's gotta be a way for them to screw it up. I was trying to think. I was thinking if he ever did have face paint, it would look a lot like Road Warrior Hawk, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I am all about all things Hawk. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Starrcade 1998 was held on December 27th, 1998 at the MCI Center in Washington, DC, in front of a sold out crowd of 16,066 fans.
00:03:23
Speaker
It received about 450,000 pay-per-view buys. Now that's down 200,000 from 1997, but still around 210,000 more than 1996.
WCW vs. WWF: Buy Rates Comparison
00:03:34
Speaker
So it's like right smack dab in the middle there. Cause it's always good to do less numbers year to year. Yeah. At least they're still up at the moment though. But did the pay-per-view cost more this year?
00:03:47
Speaker
Probably did. Probably did. Yeah. Losing only like half half is good. Yeah. Now for comparison's sake, the 450,000 is actually still a pretty good number for the year.
00:04:04
Speaker
It beats all but three of the WWF shows for the year. But those three, WrestleMania 14 in March, SummerSlam 1998 in August, and Survivor Series 1998 in November, did beat it by quite a bit, earning $730,000, $655,000, and $600,000 respectively.
00:04:25
Speaker
Now, Starrcade does beat the buys for WWF's December show, though that was part of the more minor In Your House series. That would be In Your House, Rock Bottom, which earned $290,000. I mean, when you name a show Rock Bottom, you assume it's gonna be down, right? You would assume so. Yeah, yeah, just given.
00:04:45
Speaker
We're gonna cover this in more detail on other shows, but there's been a change in the NWO. After Hogan's eventual, actual loss to Sting at Super Brawl, tensions in the group eventually led to a split into a black and white Hollywood faction led by Hogan, and a black and red Wolfpack faction led by Kevin Nash. The Hollywood faction are pure heels, while the Wolfpack
00:05:09
Speaker
Okay, yeah, they're faces. They're the NWO. I don't get how they're faces, but they're faces. Well, one of the three people that came in to destroy the company is now a good guy. Yeah, exactly. So it's hard to figure out about that. I don't know. It's so simple. Even Sting joins the Wolfpack at one point, and don't get me started on that one.
NWO Factions and Hogan's Fake Retirement
00:05:30
Speaker
At this point, Hogan has announced his retirement from pro wrestling to run for President of the United States
00:05:38
Speaker
And Scott Steiner is now leading the black and white. Don't worry, that run is just another wrestling angle. Yes. So he doesn't get elected? No. Although Scott Steiner does prove, while successfully running the duo in Hogan's absence, that he's a good manager, which while as he leads, the future re-runs the Shoneys. Yes, yeah. Gotta start here. Exactly.
00:06:05
Speaker
We open with a video showing World Heavyweight Champion Goldberg cutting back and forth between close-ups from various angles in black and white and odd sepia-toned clips of his entrance and him doing the jackhammer.
Goldberg's Quick Match Finishes Critique
00:06:18
Speaker
The clips have a time counter at the bottom, advancing as they go from clip to clip.
00:06:24
Speaker
I think the idea here is to show how Goldberg finishes his matches quickly, since a clip labeled 8-03-41 shows the start of the match and one labeled 8-04-04 shows the end. It's not necessarily a bad video, and it does make Goldberg look kinda cool, but it tells you absolutely nothing about what's going on on the actual show. It's just, hey everybody, Goldberg exists. I mean, if there's any ever in doubt, they've cleared it up.
00:06:52
Speaker
I think they should have stuck the sepia the whole time. It didn't mess with my eyes as much. Yeah. Kind of going back and forth between the two filters was kind of weird. I mean, it was ominous. I don't know. You know, all the black and white thing is more of an NWO thing to me now. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
00:07:12
Speaker
We get a bronze-colored Starrcade logo tonight, and it's officially branded as WCW slash NWO Starrcade this year. I did kind of like the color scheme myself, the bronze logo. I can see that. They're kind of getting away from the neon that they've been stuck in for a long time. Yeah, saved by the bell is a way, way long time. Well, I guess it's still popular now, nevermind. They were the college years. That did run afterwards. I don't know how... Yeah, I don't remember when exactly that was.
00:07:44
Speaker
Tony Schiavone welcomes us with an amazing opening line. In a city where the fate of the free world is decided on a daily basis, tonight, the fate of WCW, the NWO, and the world title that's been in existence since 1905 will be decided at the MCI Center. Wow. Because your wrestling show is right up there with the business of the United States government. More exciting than C-SPAN.
00:08:13
Speaker
It probably is more exciting than C-SPAN. I'll give him that. This year, the stage has kind of a Greek columns look with a Starrcade logo hanging in the center. I like the idea of the stage design, but I thought it looked kind of cheap. It's like they had a good idea, but didn't have the time to fully flesh it out, so it just seems rather basic. Right. Plus, you have people who will have to walk awkwardly around the logo. Yeah, it's a little weird.
Hype for Goldberg vs. Nash
00:08:37
Speaker
Tony introduces his fellow commentators tonight, Bobby the Brain Hienan and Iron Mike Tenet. Sadly, no Dusty. We're done with my favorite commentary team for our Starrcade run, unfortunately. Tony says that it's the biggest world title match they've ever witnessed with Goldberg vs. Kevin Nash.
00:08:58
Speaker
I get what he's going for with Goldberg risking not just his title, but his undefeated streak. But even so, there is no way that this match is bigger than last year when everybody was telling us the very fate of WCW itself was on the line, right? For the year before where it was a match of the century slash lifetime, Bronze Age, you know, whatever, whatever you want to call it.
00:09:21
Speaker
Hienan says that Nash is bigger than Goldberg and has been a Worlds Champion, and he's more experienced, but Hienan is still betting on Goldberg tonight. Tene says Momentum might be on Nash's side as well with his time with the Wolfpack. Tony builds up the upcoming Flair vs. Bischoff
Flair vs. Bischoff: Horsemen Banned
00:09:39
Speaker
match. Two stargades in a row, Eric? Wow. Yep. He says that Eric Bischoff has demanded that the Horsemen, that's Malenko, Benoit, Arn Anderson, and Mongo, be banned from the building.
00:09:52
Speaker
Could we have let Malenko at least have a match and then ban him from the building? That would have been nice. He's been great. Absolutely, yeah. That's amazing that they could show us that. Yeah, it would have been. Like show us in the back and yeah. Oh, just tell us they're not there. Yeah. Because let's be honest, Stubbs W, they were probably actually backstage. We've almost guaranteed that they flew them all into the show. Oh, yeah. So it's not like they weren't actually there and you couldn't show them being kicked out. They were definitely backstage. Yeah.
00:10:23
Speaker
I did see them like driving around the States in like a giant caravan, RVs going from match to match just to save on some flights. Yeah, the WCW and saving money don't tend to go well together. No. Can you imagine if we had like the polling technology we had now where like, who do you want to see next? And if people could put votes in and whoever the top two votes were would fight.
00:10:52
Speaker
Twitter would be deciding Raw and Daily Vicious. Yep, yep. There's no way that could backfire. The announcers agree that Bischoff is trying to stack the deck, but they say Flair has been world champ 13 times, so he is a formidable opponent. They turn to DDP versus the Giant, and Tanay says that DDP remembers the chokeslams he suffered, and it's his chance for revenge. Oddly, Tony throws to a promo for QVC.
00:11:23
Speaker
Apparently WCW is running a special on QVC showing matches and selling collectibles Brett Hart and Scott Steiner build up the show No, it would be awesome if like, you know They did like a no disqualifying match and then the next item for sale was tossed into the ring And then like they beat him over the head with like a pan like see how tough these tough one pans are Only like it cuts like a close thing and has like a $39.99 There you go. It's a nonstick pan. Look the blood washes right off. That would be good
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, Chris Jericho chimes in that it's their biggest wrestling special yet. What, bigger than Starrcade? I pray that this show finds its way to the WWE Network at some point. It sounds like absolute gold. I'm serious. Yes. I mark out every time Mean Gene says 1-900-909-9900, so you bet I want to see a wrestling show entirely based around chilling merchandise. Absolutely. Speaking of Mean Gene, Tony throws to Mean Gene.
00:12:20
Speaker
Gene tells us that police have escorted Mongo McMichael out of the arena and shills the hotline. 1-900-909-9900. Yes! He wishes Ring Announcer David Penzer a Happy New Year. Is he aware that it's only the 27th? A little early. He has a plan to talk to David Penzer for the next week and a half. I guess so. He's not popular backstage. Pretty sad.
High-Paced Cruiserweight Triangle Match
00:12:47
Speaker
Our first match is Huventug Guerreira versus Ray Mysterio Jr. versus Billy Kidman in a triangle match for Kidman's WCW Cruiserweight Championship. The referee for this match is Charles Robinson.
00:13:04
Speaker
So as part of the Eric Bischoff's evil boss storyline, he was making a lot of wrestlers in the back mad, and that included Eddie Guerrero, who felt that him and other Latino wrestlers were both to get more opportunities, more money, and stuff like that. So he decided to form a union of sorts, taking cue from previous groups, and formed the LWO, the Latino World Order, which consisted of every Hispanic wrestler they had in the roster,
00:13:32
Speaker
Except for Mr. Jr., who initially did not want to join the group, mostly because it's Eddie Guerrero and he didn't trust him. Which is a pretty good thought process at that point. By this point, he was forced to join them, as per a match stipulation. So he's a reluctant member of the group.
00:13:51
Speaker
So the idea going into this match is that Eddie Guerrero has two of his guys both going for the title, which is really stacked in the deck. The expression we're going to use all show, I guess. And Sarah used it once. In the favor of the L.W.O. to get the title off Bill Kidman. Okay. It's our first look at Hooventook Herrera in a match and he is already unmasked. Yes. That's kind of sad.
00:14:17
Speaker
Ray gets a cool entrance with a prize fighter kind of robe. It looks really cool. He and him points out that Ray wipes his feet on an LWO t-shirt. Yes. Kidman has kicked his fictional heroine habit, so good for him. Yeah. Oh, well. Progress is progress even if it isn't in this realm of reality.
00:14:39
Speaker
Our last triangle match was back at Starrcade 1995 with Sting, Luger, and Flair, but where that one had just two in the ring at a time and one on the apron, with them tagging in and out, this is just a traditional three-way match with everybody fighting at once. I ended up liking the 1995 match, but I'm still glad to see this version instead, much less complicated rules-wise. Yes.
00:15:01
Speaker
And of course, even these two matches are different than other triangle matches we'll also get, as we'll cover in later shows. The word triangle match means very little consistently. Other than three? Yes. That's true.
00:15:16
Speaker
Guerrera slaps Kidman and Mysterio in turn. Bad idea. They team up against him and set a fast pace, with Guerrera frequently countering one's move, only for the other to nail him right afterwards, until Mysterio accidentally hits Kidman when Guerrera dodges. Kidman fires back, and Kidman and Mysterio trade blows while Guerrera cheers them on. So, both stop, turn, and double clothesline him down, then go back to brawling.
00:15:41
Speaker
That honestly might've been the spot of the night for me. It was pretty good. Yeah. You would never learn. No.
00:15:50
Speaker
Gerrera tries his luck against each in turn, but gets knocked aside. Kidman puts Gerrera on the turnbuckle, but Mysterio interrupts. So Kidman lifts Mysterio on his shoulders, but Mysterio rolls forward and off to avoid a Gerrera flying crossbody. Then Kidman lifts Mysterio and drops him in a splash on Gerrera. Kidman and Mysterio break each other's pins. They team up again, but Gerrera gets a falling DDT on both simultaneously and tries to pin both guys at once.
00:16:18
Speaker
but gets thrown off at two. Sequence of three-way counters ends with Gerrera flipping out of a Mysterio German suplex and getting nailed with a Kidman clothesline just in time for Mysterio to charging, get sent Skyward by Kidman, and counter with a Facebuster on the way down. All perfectly timed there.
00:16:36
Speaker
It earns Mysterio and Guerrero some two counts. Guerrero clotheslines Kidman out and throws Mysterio over-the-top rope onto him. During the tag match later on, by the way, Tony will note that the over-the-top rope disqualification rule is gone now. I missed that. Hey, it's a good thing. Guerrero follows with a springboard splash. Back in, Mysterio and Kidman simultaneously greet him with dropkicks as he jumps off the top rope.
00:17:02
Speaker
Gerrera hits a springboard Hurricanrana to Mysterio on Kidman's shoulders. Kidman saves at 2 and gets 2 on Gerrera. Kidman counters a Gerrera suplex into a bulldog, kicking Mysterio on the way down and getting 2 and 9 tenths on Gerrera. Gerrera's a little late on a save after a Mysterio-seated springboard moonsault to Kidman, so Robinson just kind of stops.
00:17:26
Speaker
He's a very charitable referee. Yeah, he can't all go perfectly. Yeah. Mysterio Hurricanrana is Guerrero from the apron to the floor and Guerrero nearly hits head first, turning sideways at the last moment to save his life. He held the ropes just a little bit too long. I think that's probably what caused it. I believe so. Yeah.
00:17:46
Speaker
Big moves and pin attempts by each, with each making saves, until Kidman hurls Guerrero outside, and Mysterio ducks a Kidman charge to send him out and hits a top rope springboard moonsault to both. Back in, and Mysterio hits a springboard Hurricanrana to Guerrero, but Guerrero hits the hoovy driver for two, as Kidman saves again. More quick moves, pins and saves, and with Mysterio Hurricanrana-ing Guerrero and himself out,
00:18:13
Speaker
Kidman hits a shooting star press from the top to the outside on both of them. The crowd starts booing and Eddie Guerrero comes down the ramp. Sorry, I should clarify that a little better. The crowd starts booing as Eddie Guerrero comes down the ramp. Yeah, it may sound like Eddie was like, oh, they're unhappy. I should help them out. Yeah, sorry about that. He's very, very good. Let's say this is some good high flying
00:18:38
Speaker
Yeah, that was my reaction when it was on the show at first was, why are they booing? This is awesome. And then I realized, oh, Eddie's coming.
00:18:46
Speaker
Robinson goes out to argue with Eddie, but checks on Mysterio outside as well. In the ring, Kidman counters a Guerreira sunset flip by sitting down, but Eddie charges in and flips Kidman down so Guerreira's on top. Eddie slides out and celebrates, but as Robinson slides in to count, Mysterio makes the save with a dropkick, then knocks Guerreira down and Kidman back on top for the three count and the win.
00:19:10
Speaker
Eddie stops dead in mid brag and slowly turns around to see that Kidman has won and freaks out. He goes full on cheesy 80s action movie villain. It's great. Oh, yeah. It's like, no.
00:19:30
Speaker
is the best part, a match. Thoughts on this one? Fun and frantic. Yes, definitely. What I really like with a match is that there's so much going on, and it actually really uses the fact there's three people quite well. There's a tendency in badly booked, or at least so-so booked, to other matches where it basically breaks down into a series of 1-1 matches. Right.
00:19:57
Speaker
where someone will evidently roll out and they will wrestle, then you will wrestle and so on and so forth. This match really is built upon there always being three people in the ring or about to be in the ring or trying to get in the ring. There's never a point where it doesn't feel like this really is a triple threat match essentially, even though they don't call it that. Everyone is relevant the entire time. Yes. There are breaks, but only to set up big moves in the outside or stuff like that. Yeah.
00:20:24
Speaker
It's hard to really pick who did best here. Cause I mean, Kidman doing the arguably the ballsiest thing we've seen on a show so far because the shootings are pressed. Just if you ever seen it, you kind of have to understand logistics of it. So you jump off the top rope and push your feet forward, but then you're basically doing a backflip in the air. So you're doing forward while rotating your body backwards and do a full rotation and land back the way you were beforehand.
00:20:55
Speaker
Terrifying move to see let's see the outside even to be able to catch you. It's it's tricky for sure Yeah, the shooting star press despite that. There's other even more flippy moves and everything I think the shooting star press is by far my favorite top rope move the physics of it are Incomprehensible to me. I don't know. Yeah, it looks neat. It just has it has a great look to it and
00:21:17
Speaker
Yeah, your mind creates this visual that time is somehow going slower. Yeah. Because you're rotating again, but it looks like the momentum of it. So it looks like someone jumps, time slows down, and then suddenly catches up again. Much like the editing trick Zack Snyder used to death in all those movies. Yes. They slow down speed up. Whereas stuff like the 450, which is amazing in its own right, is a cool move, but it is very fast and very sudden. Yeah.
00:21:42
Speaker
There's almost a sort of mystical aspect to watching someone shooting a star press, especially the higher up they are. Seeing people do it over the ground is a press of its own right, like the running or standing ones, but with air you'd sort of get an extra appeal to doing that.
00:21:56
Speaker
Now, I will note that I usually don't like matches based on whether they have outside interference or not. That's just my rule as I should be clear by now. In this case, I give it a bit of a pass because one, it's actually not that much interaction. It's important to the finish, obviously, but it's not like it really takes over the match.
00:22:16
Speaker
And plus, as we'll see, what happens with this finish leads immediately to the next match.
Eddie Guerrero's Challenge to Kidman
00:22:21
Speaker
So it's not like you're screwing me out of a clean finish and then, hey, buy the show next month. There's immediate payoff to this. Yeah, to be fair, it's averted, too. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he interferes, but then his interference is undone. Oh, yeah, no, I just mean the fact that the finish is decided by us interference in some way. Yeah, okay. But yeah, this is definitely the least offensive way they can do that for me personally. But yeah, it's where they can match.
00:22:45
Speaker
Oh, I enjoyed the match. Anytime you have this much high flying action, it's always a highlight for me.
00:22:53
Speaker
Sure. Rey Mysterio is great. I mean, actually there was no one in the match that wasn't amazing. I will agree that the shooting star press was probably the best move in the whole match and that whole slowing down time, I think that's a good way of describing it. This may be the footage that inspired a beautiful Joe. A fun time.
00:23:16
Speaker
dilation game that has lots of high-flying lubes. But I did enjoy the interaction. I've been coming in, the crowd booing, and you see this domino effect that determines the winner of the match, and having three near-pin falls in interference back to back to back and doing it flawlessly. I did not take away from it at all, and it was nice to see that they're just doing this flip-flop.
00:23:45
Speaker
Yeah. Absolutely. Kudos to the ref on this one. Keeping it all straight, too. Yeah, I had a feeling you were going to enjoy this one. It's so, like, innovative, action-wise. The great start. Out of all the Starkades and everything, I enjoy the ones that start strong. Absolutely. Just think, if they'd had a match like this to open in Starka 91, the Battle Ball Show would have been much better.
00:24:15
Speaker
Yeah, this is one of the best openers we've had. It's right up there with Milenko versus Ultimo Dragon for sure. It got a little sloppy at points and there were times that I could see them setting up the timing, but I can forgive it. The spots that the guys were going for were mind-blowing, so it's no surprise that it was hard to get everything perfect.
00:24:35
Speaker
Some absolutely incredible moments and a consistent quick pace with minimal pauses. A terrific and exciting match that showed off just how talented and creative all three of these guys are.
00:24:48
Speaker
Hooven to Guerreira seems like he's not quite as consistent as the other two in there, and the apron-hurricane-rana spot was a little scary, but he still does a great job otherwise. If there's one flaw that I can mention to it, it's that the fun character work early on feels like it kind of falls by the wayside later on, when the insane spots come fast and furious.
00:25:06
Speaker
But, they do keep the general storyline going quite well, and the match feels like it tells a complete tale. Even the ending interference can be forgiven since it's just countered and undone, so the match still gets a clean enough finish. Excellent, excellent start to the show. Two times on a match, they tease a spot that feels like it's going to be a version of the Doomsday Device, the Road Warriors, which makes me want to see Road Warrior Hawk doing the move that Rifteria does, doing a flying hardcore match with somebody.
00:25:36
Speaker
Oh, that sounds terrifying. I know, I thought I'd want to see it. Take this match and replace a few of the other matches tonight. It would be my favorite Starrcade. Yeah. Just replay it. Yeah, I could watch this match several times in a row, honestly, easily. Yeah, I can see that. Mysterio's run coming out of this is pretty strong, leading to a big match, yes, in February where you see him cone in. Okay. Which decides that you turn a big way.
00:26:06
Speaker
Kidman leaves with his belt, and Eddie climbs in the ring and grabs a microphone.
00:26:37
Speaker
You could have finished the job and I left them laying. You're a moron. You're a moron. You guys aren't worth L.W.O. material. You guys aren't L.W.O. material. I can't believe this. That belt is supposed to be L.W.O.S.A. You can't beat a cream puff. I can't believe you can't beat a cream puff. Shut up. I'm talking.
00:27:04
Speaker
I can't believe you can't be a sassy boy like Kidman. He's a pretty boy. He's probably getting ready to go out on a date. He's probably combing his hair because you guys can't hack it. Man. Never seen him like this. No, neither have I. You are an embarrassment. I don't got nothing to do with him. Now that's what I want to say.
00:27:32
Speaker
I tell them, hey, I don't want to do this anymore. Especially the two. All you do is fight against me. All you do is go against anything I say. And I'm trying to do the best that I can. You're supposed to be the best in the world. And you're supposed to be the best in the world. Can they both be? Yeah. When you want something done, I guess you just got to do it yourself.
00:28:02
Speaker
So Kidman, if you're back there, and if you can hear me, you dweeb, this vatos loco is gonna challenge you to a cruise away champion, because I know I can win it. Now Kidman's already gone, and you know what?
00:28:29
Speaker
You talk a lot of garbage when you're all the way over there. But if you want a shot, there's no time like the present. Don't be foolish. I tell you what, pretty boy. You let me go get my stuff on, and I'll be more than happy to kick your butt all over this ring. Wait a minute. I don't mean to go in the back. If you want to talk out of that garbage now, you're really the sissy if you won't fight me right now.
00:28:59
Speaker
Ball's in your court, Eddie. Hey, wait a minute. I haven't even had a chance to prepare mentally. Can you see it? What's the matter, Eddie? Are you afraid? I haven't had a chance to get ready. Afraid? No, I'm not afraid. If you got the time, I'm out of bounds. Now I want a piece of you, pretty boy. You want me all right. Kidman's going to wrestle again. He just wrestled two men. He's not 100%.
00:29:26
Speaker
This was a great performance buried in the middle of a kind of clumsy performance. Yeah. Eddie stumbles over his words a lot, and some of his statements come out rather perplexing until he corrects them. But he comes off as very raw and angry, and some of the clumsiness actually helps with that. It's almost just him being too mad to think clearly. It just ends up a little too disorganized for that.
00:29:51
Speaker
Hooventook Herrera's acting is great here. He looks totally distraught by how Eddie's treating him and close to tears at points. I really felt bad for him. I'm not entirely sure why Kidman's so eager to fight Eddie right away when Kidman's the one that just had a crazy match, but boy did this pack in a ton of emotion and make me want to see this fight.
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's so close to being a really good promo segment. He just doesn't quite nail enough of the content to feel like he's just being angry and then just... Yeah. It's a shame, but it's... although he's really good, yeah. Referee Scott Dickinson runs down to the ring to officiate and we've got ourselves a match.
Guerrero vs. Kidman: Storyline Continuation
00:30:30
Speaker
So our second match is Eddie Guerrero with Huventu Guerrero versus Billy Kidman with Ray Mysterio Jr. for Kidman's WCW Cruiserweight Championship. The referee for the match is Scott Dickinson. I will tell you after the energy fest that the first match was, I would not want to be wrestling a second match and I can't believe that Kidman still has something left for this. Yeah, pretty impressive.
00:30:55
Speaker
Eddie attacks before the bell and batters Kidman with forearm strikes, a clothesline, and a powerbomb and inside cradle for two each. Eddie flings Kidman high up and lets him drop, learning from Malenko last year. Abdominal stretch, Anguera, now wearing Eddie's leather jacket, holds Eddie's hand for leverage on Kidman, but Mysterio breaks that up. Twice. Eddie and Guerrero yell at Mysterio, but Eddie shoves Guerrero away angrily.
00:31:22
Speaker
Back in, Kidman fights back with a cool slingshot head scissors. But Eddie stops that comeback fast, as Tony asks if Kidman, having to face three guys tonight, is setting a record. Blatantly not. No. Even if Battle Bulls are excluded, the participants in the Iron Man Singles tournament at Starrcade 89 and Sting and Luger at Starrcade 95 equaled Kidman's total.
00:31:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's true. Kidman high-flying drop kick turns the tide, but he pauses to recover by the ropes and Guerrero grabs his leg so Eddie can hit a rare frontside chop block, the kind that would actually hurt. Eddie bends Kidman like a pretzel in an awesome submission hole that looks like it would hurt basically everywhere. Yes. The crowd chants, Eddie sucks. Kidman slips a leg free, so Eddie continues the beating. Eddie indicates that the crowd can kiss his
00:32:15
Speaker
Mysterio helps Kidman roll out. I'm not entirely sure why that's okay to do. Guerrero helps Eddie get the better of a brawl outside. Back in, Kidman makes a comeback, but Guerrero helps Eddie loosen the laces of his steel-toed work shoes. Mysterio tries to warn Dickinson, but that distracts him, and Eddie knocks Kidman out with the shoe. Eddie signals for a time out because his shoe accidentally fell off. It cracked me up. Have it all the time.
00:32:44
Speaker
Mysterio and the crowd disagree, so Eddie hurls his shoe at Mysterio angrily, who dodges. Kidman kicks out at two because it took Eddie too long to pin. Eddie hits a brain buster, but takes too long going up and eats a Kidman Superplex for two and a half. Even Heenan is now praising Kidman's endurance. Eddie dropkicks and elbow drops Kidman's knee and puts on a headstand leg lock. Mysterio uses Eddie's own shoe to stop him from using the ropes on a couple two counts.
00:33:14
Speaker
Eddie hits an amazing rope ascending springboard Hurricanrana with only one shoe on. Yeah, it's amazing. He runs to the ropes, he steps on the middle rope with his sock-covered foot, and then steps onto the top rope with his other one, and then jumps. This really jumps backward while turning around and doing Hurricanrana. One of the most amazing moves of the night. Yes.
00:33:37
Speaker
Eddie tries a powerbomb, but you can't powerbomb Kidman, and Eddie eats a facebuster. Kidman builds to a slingshot leg drop for two. Eddie holds onto the ropes to block a top-row perk and runna. Kidman lands hard, and Eddie puts him up top. Eddie's bodyguard rushes the ring, and Mysterio stops him. Kidman shoves Eddie down, but with Dickinson distracted, Gerrera crotches Kidman on the top turnbuckle.
00:34:02
Speaker
Guerrero celebrates and Eddie goes back up, but Mysterio shoves Eddie crotch first onto the top rope, knocking Guerrero down in the process. Kidman hits the shooting star press for the three count and the win, as Guerrero is too late to stop it. Not that it would have been okay if he had anyway, because it would have been a DQ most likely, but hey. I mean, given the way to spin, who knows? Good point.
00:34:26
Speaker
Mysterio helps Kidman leave with the belt, and Tony praises Kidman's two victories tonight. Heenan praises Kidman's guts. Thoughts on this match?
00:34:35
Speaker
I thought it was really good. What I really liked is the story of it on two fronts. So on the actual story front directly, it's Guerrero doing hard, impactful, sudden start to wear down on a guy who's wrestled along that with lots of flying jumping. So it makes, absolutely makes sense. Just strike him really quickly and wear him down, take whatever energy he has left out of it.
00:34:57
Speaker
The other aspect to it is that, as you mentioned, Kibbin has to be tired of wrestling that match. So doing it this way allows him to cover as much as you can while someone's beating you up, you know. Wait. It's best to just rest while you're down. Exactly, yeah. But no, it's not like they just start a regular match, like the previous match, and he's just going again. It's a lot of time to allow him to get energy back so he can do shooting star press and things like that. Absolutely makes sense.
00:35:27
Speaker
I love, jokingly, sort of love seeing the shoe as a deadly weapon. It continues to be the most befuddling of all dangerous weapons in wrestling history.
00:35:37
Speaker
I mean, at least this one they do specifically say is steel-toed, so it makes sense why it would hurt to be hit with it, but still, I don't get why it hurts more than when he uses it to kick. Absolutely. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah, just get him down and stomp on him. This is the second Starrcade in a row that having steel on someone's toe is causing them to have things fly away.
00:36:00
Speaker
That's true. Yeah. I was worried for the crowd again on this one, but at least they showed that Mysterio had the shoe later, so I knew I hadn't gone. Either I didn't go flying into the crowd or someone nicely retrieved it.
00:36:14
Speaker
But yeah, seeing Eddie perform this way under, obviously what is realistically is planned out circumstances, but playing like he's unprepared and wrestling in gear that you should not be wrestling in normally and wrestling so well, like with that, with the rope ascending move. It's pretty amazing.
00:36:31
Speaker
It shows you how talented that dude was. Yes, absolutely. There's just lots of little things like the constant parts of who we try and do a system and Ray trying to stop it. So it makes the interference a part of the match, but there's an equal balancing point to with two of them. And it's so integrated that even like me don't like it. You can accept the fact that basically the match is built around this. So it's not like a cheapening thing for me having interference like this.
00:37:00
Speaker
Finishing, I guess it's fair since they cheated to get him in that position, so it's only fair to then cheat to get him out of it. So it sort of evens out that way. Yeah. There's just a lot of nice little things in there. Even, even just Whovie putting on Eddie's jacket and wearing it ringside the whole time is actually a little touch I like.
00:37:16
Speaker
I don't even know why Kidman just comes back. Why does he have to come down? Well, he was challenged. He's a face and faces are stupid. Yes. Well, I was just really surprised for him to come down. I thought they were just going to let this play out, you know? Yeah. I was legitimately surprised by that too. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it might be just a little tussle and that would be it. It wouldn't be like a full blown match. You know, it might be like just a quick exchange, maybe Eddie.
00:37:43
Speaker
could be really heelish and knock him out or something after he's all tired and everything. But no, I think it was great. It's a good example of how he just, his arrogance kind of burns all those bridges, you know, his allies in the beginning of the match and the storylines that lead up to that. You know, they are sort of his protege, his kind of things. And he just tells them they're worthless. And guess what? He gets to eat it.
00:38:10
Speaker
So it's really satisfying even if you're not happy with the first match and you wanted to see a different winner, at least you still see a resolution where everyone gets some sort of redemption and Eddie gets what he deserves.
00:38:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a fascinating ending that way. Like, you were saying, Alan, like you were saying just now, it really carries forward that storyline of the first match expertly. Yes. It's not something we've seen in the other ones. Usually when people are getting called out, they've run out of time and the show ends. Yeah. Yeah, it's like normally you see that promo happen and that's like, oh, that'll be the next show or that'll be something that Al will be discussing and is what happens next in the storyline thing. But in this one, it's like, no, it's actually on the show. I was like, what, what? Really? Yeah.
00:38:58
Speaker
A second really good match from Kidman tonight. There's a lot of shenanigans in this one with Guerrero and Mysterio, probably like you were saying, to help Kidman have some chances to catch his breath, given that he's already had a high energy match right before this. But even so, it's an impressive performance from him. He's not bouncing all over the ring like the last match, but he's not letting Eddie do all the work either. He gets in a lot of cool moves over the course of this match and puts in the effort to make his side of things work.
00:39:24
Speaker
Eddie, for his part, has an epic heel performance here. Brutal, ambitious, and spiteful. The best character work that I've seen from him yet. And he drew big reactions from the crowd. That's without even mentioning his awesome ring work with great creative spots and a good mix of power and agility. Good storytelling and carrying forward the story of the prior match, and Guerrero's desperation to earn back Eddie's respect too.
00:39:52
Speaker
This has to be the best first two matches of any of the Star Cades we've seen. Yeah, it's hard to argue with that, honestly. Yeah. I can think of maybe a better single match starting out potentially, like Altimo versus Milenko was really good, but I don't think we've had a single Star Kid that had the two split along time into one extended match. Right. One unified storyline. It's really amazing.
00:40:17
Speaker
Eddie did a really good job of just totally dominating when, not only was Kim in tired, but like Eddie just seemed like he was being relentless in the beginning and it was very impactful to show his frustration and it looked like maybe he kind of did a little rope-a-dope kind of thing just to get back in the match. Great 1.5 matches. Yeah.
00:40:43
Speaker
It's like you get a real feeling of the strategy that Eddie has going into this match that he's like, okay, this guy's tired. I'm gonna try and do everything I can to wipe him out fast.
Eddie Guerrero's Real-Life Impact on Storyline
00:40:54
Speaker
You get that perception from it so well. It's one of the better portrayals of strategy, I think, in a match. It's really nicely done.
00:41:04
Speaker
I think the only downside for me to this match or matches together is that we don't get to see the rest of the LBO in any sense. It'd be nice to see them mostly because the park has an LBO. I knew there were you in there. But you know, I like Silver King and Hector Garza and C'Clopay. Yeah. Most people like saying C'Clopay to be fair, but it's fun to say.
00:41:26
Speaker
Going off of this show, Kidman has a really nice run of strong matches. He gets to fight people we've seen before, but he also gets to see Psychosis and Tava Guerrero get their shot to the belt as well. Maybe Tava Guerrero Jr. at this point, but yeah. So that's a fun part of it. The other part's fortunately not as fun. The January curse continues, because this is WCW.
00:41:50
Speaker
Outside of all wrestling, just not part of a show, Eddie Guerrero was in a really bad car accident on January 1st. Oh geez. Yeah, January 1st, yeah.
00:42:01
Speaker
between the night show that comes after the show and then the next one. Man. Yeah, it's really bad. Fortunately, that spells the end of the L.W.O. as far as management is concerned, because the L.W.O., for all its purposes, was a group to build up the Eddie Guerrero material feud, essentially. Really just Eddie Guerrero as a whole, trying to promote him that way.
00:42:22
Speaker
So once he's out, they really didn't have any idea what to do with that. So I quickly write it up story by having them officially align with WCW and disband the group.
00:42:34
Speaker
The extra sad stuff is Eddie Guerrero does come back, but unfortunately, he comes back too soon because we're at the point where Bischoff and company have already shown that if they have a grudge against you, they will exploit the 90-day no-compete clause in your contract, which means if you aren't able to compete in 90 days, no matter what the reason, they can fire you. The final clause, they stuck it in contracts. No, it's notably done to six, AKA X-POC.
00:43:03
Speaker
who legit breaks his neck rustling for WCW. They're mad behind the scenes at National Hall. Our National Hall have really good contracts and they have good downside guarantees and basically would cost them more to punish them. So he assigned to send a FedEx package with a pink slip to six while he's at home recovering from his neck being broken.
00:43:24
Speaker
Oh, geez. Yeah. So Eddie Garo knows this and fortunately forced himself to come back too early. And he is not the person he should be in when he comes back, which causes a lot of stuff he has to deal with and get over in the future because he's essentially forcing himself to work hard because he's afraid for his job. Yeah. Not a fun director recap, unfortunately. No. It's sad that the show we get to see the WO have this big moment is basically at the end of them. Yeah.
00:43:53
Speaker
as part of the promo where they get the LWAO to rejoin WCW, they mention, just offhand, because he obviously doesn't appear on the show. This is the January 4th night chart, I believe. So three days after the accident, they mentioned that Igeraro was in the hospital with a broken leg and they imply that the bad guys had something to do with it, which is a really tacky way to incorporate actual things in real life into the story. So they could have gone without that, but yeah.
00:44:26
Speaker
we get a bizarre, short, black-and-white video. Clouds fly by, interspersed with shots of Goldberg and Kevin Nash's faces, and the two of them arguing or fighting while ethereal music plays. I swear, if I was watching this in 1998, I would have thought that one or both of Goldberg and Nash had died.
00:44:54
Speaker
This just looked like an in memoriam kind of video. Yeah, you're just waiting for their name and like a timestamp to figure out there. I don't know what they were thinking with this one, but it did not accomplish whatever goal they had. I guess they were just trying to get an attention grab, you know? It makes no sense as a build up, right? It's like... No, it is not. They chose the wrong epic music.
00:45:22
Speaker
Yeah. It's like too calm a music and the wrong kind of footage to use and the cloud thing is just like mystifying. Maybe they were going for like, this is like a battle of the gods or something, but... Hey, that would explain the columns. There you go. Yeah. That would make some sense.
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah. The only way that music cue mixed with any video makes sense to me is if you were doing that for the last year's Darkade and it was like showing the interview and Hogan, like battering people and like, yeah, it's the dark black. And then you play that and show Sting like coming out. Right. So show in the dark and light thing. That's the only way that makes any sense. Yeah. But for Goldberg versus Kevin Nash, it has nothing to do with anything. Basically. Yes. It's a promo site. Nice. They ran it twice.
00:46:11
Speaker
Yeah, they do it again later on. Yeah.
Norman Smiley vs. Prince Iakea: Technical Wrestling
00:46:15
Speaker
Tony builds up Goldberg versus Nash, and we cut to our third match. So our third match is Norman Smiley versus Prince Iakea. Referee for this match is Billy Silverman. Heenan corrects Tony's pronunciation of Norman Smiley, saying it more French, even though Smiley is British. Yeah, that bugged the hell out of me. Yeah. Tony begs Tanay to say something intelligent because Heenan won't.
00:46:44
Speaker
It's been a while since we've seen Smiley, all the way back at Starrcade 90 in the tag tournament. I liked his work then. He's gotten a tad sillier these days, but not as silly as he's going to get. He does a little dance as he heads into the ring. Prince Iakea was, I understand, trained by Dean Malenko. And his gimmick name references King Curtis Iokea, who was a friend of Kevin Sullivan and plays the master in the Dungeon of Doom angle.
00:47:13
Speaker
Why are they pronounced differently? Good question. I don't have an answer. I'm going to use Ayakea as that's what they keep calling him here. Ayakea does a neat ceremonial dance in the ring. Ayakea has a strong start, including a neat roll out of a smiley whip attempt. I've never seen that used as a counter before. Yeah. Ayakea dragon screw leg whip has me missing Dusty. Yes. He's probably laughing in the back right now. Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:43
Speaker
Jon's depressed that Dusty is not on. Don't bring it out. You're allowed to be sad. It's okay. Makes you human. Hayekes sends Smiley outside with a dropkick and does a forward flip off the apron onto him and gets him back in the ring for two counts off of that and a snap suplex. Smiley takes over using an eye poke and builds to a front side hammerlock suplex into a wraparound hammerlock hold. I have no idea what those are called but they were really cool.
00:48:12
Speaker
Smiley easily keeps control with holds and takedowns, but the announcers pretty much ignore the match in favor of a good, but poorly timed discussion of Flair vs. Bischoff until Smiley takes time to dance for a bit, which calls their attention back to the match at hand.
00:48:26
Speaker
Smiley gets an extended, turning scoop slam for two, and a triangle hold to the head as Tanay builds up Smiley's submission wrestling skill and worldwide experience. Smiley punches free of an Ayakea sunset flip, but Ayakea grabs him again to complete for one in a nice spot. Smiley with strikes, a jumping double stomp, and a painful-looking submission that really bends Ayakea backwards, turning into a series of arm locks.
00:48:53
Speaker
Yeah, they joked her in that hold that he's got every part of IKEA locked up except his left leg. Actually, that's a later one. Oh, is it? Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah. Somebody in the crowd hassles Smiley. So Smiley yells back and does a peck jiggle. The only guy I've seen do that other than Lex Luger. I smell a challenge coming. Yes.
00:49:18
Speaker
Amazing, suspended double underhook suplex by Smiley gets two and three quarters. Ayakea gets the ropes with his toes. Ayakea stops a cross arm breaker by clasping his hands together, then rolls Smiley over and strikes his way free. Smiley cuts short another comeback with a drop toll hold and dances, which gets massive cheers. The crowd appears to largely be here for the dancing, sadly enough.
00:49:43
Speaker
Ayakea surprises Smiley with a great bridging suplex for two, but Smiley ties up virtually every one of Ayakea's limbs in a crazy standing submission hold. It was pretty crazy. Yeah. The suplex is really good too. Hienan asked if that's what Thanksgiving looks like at the Shivani house. Everyone going for a drumstick. Tony says that some in his family just want Domino's pizza instead. That's kind of sad. Product placement.
00:50:13
Speaker
Yeah. Hey, I got that money somehow. They only had like a picture of the Noid pop up when he said that. That would have been great. Smiley transitions to pins for a couple one counts and a two count. Iikea fights back and hits a spinning head drop to the thigh. Smiley sounds like it was the crotch, and Iikea protests that it was the abdomen, but Tony agrees with me that it was the thigh.
00:50:36
Speaker
Smiley wrenches Iikea's nose. The crowd is dead, so Smiley dances again. Smiley dodges the shoulder block in the corner, and Iikea actually stops before hitting the post. Smartest man in wrestling? Yeah, it's amazing.
00:50:50
Speaker
Ayakea springboard crossbody from the apron, but Smiley rolls through for two. Smiley tries a backslide but can't get leverage, so he slips around and fights for his Norman Conquest hold. Ayakea struggles, but Smiley finally locks it in and falls back. Ayakea can't reach the ropes and taps out to give Smiley the submission victory. Smiley dances again and has words with someone in the crowd again. Thoughts on this one?
00:51:16
Speaker
What I like about this match is it was very strong back and forth and also technical. They both seem to actually know the holds they're going for. They definitely seem to be slightly lopsided towards Smiley, who's definitely generally controlling the offense as far as like locking the opponent up and doing those kind of moves. But it's not to say that IK doesn't have his own. He has some suplexes and the fact that he's counter-wrestling is a press-ment zone right now.
00:51:43
Speaker
The only real problem I have with the match is that for a reason, so Smiley is a bad guy in this case, it's not clear. He's supposed to be supposed to be. I feel like the fact that he constantly keeps stopping as good as the match is going, he constantly stops to dance, which gets the crowd to cheer for him. It's very distracting.
00:52:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's supposed to be, you know, a heal-ish thing, or like Disco Inferno did in his early days, where it's like, he's always not taking his opponent seriously. Yeah, it's just a taunt, you know, he's just showing that he, you know, was- No, yeah. What it means is, though,
00:52:21
Speaker
By the first time he's done it, the second time I guess you want to say it, he realizes that the crowd cheers this. So it's basically him stopping a heels match to play a face, at least as far as this personal crowd goes. And my big issue is just the pacing of it because it's a start and stop part of it. I feel like if he'd done the dance the first time, saw the crowd, reacts what he did,
00:52:46
Speaker
You could have teased at a second time, like start and then yell at them and see if they get a reaction and then lock in a hold or do a strike. The problem is I feel like he's not fully playing a heel. It's sort of a reaction thing, like you were sort of implying that he's doing it because the crowd is not reacting so he does it. Yeah. I guess I'm more mad at the crowd for only really reacting to that, say for a few things. Cause there's a brief moment, they actually, he takes a hold and the crowd cheers. And even the answers say they appreciate the action.
00:53:16
Speaker
You've got to cut the dancing part of it out of a really, really good match. It's still strong and don't take too much away from it. It's just the pacing is often because of that. And especially following Eddie Guerrero's heel wrestling. Yeah. Seeing this in contrast is maybe him not being used to being that character and just feeling a little defensive. So he does the dance to get cheers and attention. That's still a good match.
00:53:41
Speaker
Well, I mean, I don't know if Smiley or Smilay or whatever we're calling him is wrestling all that much anymore. Again, I don't know what's coming up to this. So I can just say, you know, we haven't seen him since 1990, right? Yeah. Obviously he's playing one character and tries to get, you know, whatever screen time he is. So he's going to ham it up a bit.
00:54:03
Speaker
They didn't drag things out, but it was a long match. And they probably could have resolved it a little bit quicker without some of the other antics. I really did like IUK's fighting style. A lot of the moves he did had a certain whip to them, or his strikes look almost like a different martial arts.
00:54:24
Speaker
or something, you know, it made him unique, different than any of the wrestlers I've seen on Starrcade. So I did enjoy, I was more interested in seeing more from him than I was Smiley. Yeah, I was gonna say, I've seen other IAKM matches, and he can be good. But this is the first time that I've, because of what you were saying, well, like the counter wrestling stuff, Al, and the interesting style of his moves and everything, John. This is the first match where I've been like,
00:54:54
Speaker
I can see that you were trained by Dean Milenko. Yeah. I can see where you got like an awareness of all these different move types and everything. I really liked this. It was cool to see Spiley's style here. Very submission focused with a lot of very creative and interesting holds. With IOK I'm more focused on striking and power and acrobatics. It gave the match a very varied style.
00:55:20
Speaker
I maybe would have liked to see a little more of Iikea, like you guys were saying, getting a chance to control, as anytime he gets offense, it gets stopped pretty quickly. But it made Smiley look awesome, so if that was their goal, bravo. I really liked the ending. It looked legit. Focus on Smiley fighting to lock the hold on. Once he did, that was it. Iikea didn't get to hang out in the finishing hold and just keep resisting. He was just done.
00:55:46
Speaker
It really built up the Norman Conquest as a powerful finishing hold, too. But yeah, I was very annoyed at the crowd during this. They seemed to ignore everything but the dancing, and I was liking this, so I just kept wanting them to cheer. I really want to see Norman Smiley versus Dean Malenko now. That would be a really fascinating match, I think.
00:56:08
Speaker
So you can maybe bring a tie on this. Bob and I are a bit divided on the whole Norman Conquest move name thing. So I understand his name is Norman, and so there's maybe not a lot of things you can do with it. I just feel like the 11th century invasion of England is not the most topical thing to name a move after. That's a super famous historical event. I know.
00:56:31
Speaker
I understand that, I'm just, I don't know, it's, they like referencing old things on Starrcade and WWE in general. This is probably the oldest thing they referenced. I like the move, I just, I'm not sold on the name. Well it's better than pulling from like Normandy, you know, Storming of Normandy, World War II. Yeah, yeah, no. The beats of Normandy or something. Okay, no, I gotcha. Norman Conquest chicken wings sounds like a recipe. It does.
00:57:00
Speaker
or like a food chain, you know, like, it's like something you would have show up at like a Renfest.
00:57:06
Speaker
Yeah. If that hasn't been done, that should totally be done. Mm-hmm. That would be good. I'm just not a fan of any chicken wing finish. No? No, they hurt. Oh, okay. From your experience then. Yeah. But, I mean, like, it's also, it's a funny name for... I mean, I don't know what you would call it, really, but... It's interesting, because the chicken wing sounds like a silly name for the move, but then you see the move and you're like, yeah, that's a fairly logical thing to name this. Yeah.
00:57:37
Speaker
I will, on a serious note, add, so as we're really fighting the finish sequence, you can really see that IK is trying to fight out of it. I think a point I was saying, at the very end, he's ready to reach the rope, trying to roll and grab the ropes, and Norman, to finish him off, locks his free arm up as well, and that's when he taps out.
00:57:57
Speaker
Yeah. Pulls all hope away, basically. It's a very detailed ending, which is very cool to see. And I like submission holds in wrestling generally, but a lot of them, it's just like you get the hold on and then they fight in it and fight in it and fight in it. Eventually they tap out. Yeah. With this one, it was just, no, the fight was about getting the hold locked in. And once it was locked in fully, it's just like, I'm not escaping. So yeah, I'm going to tap before this guy does serious damage to me.
00:58:26
Speaker
I just like the extra touch that Teya is fighting the whole way and then once, basically once his last chance to get away is removed, he taps out. It reminds me a little bit of MMA fights. When they get those holds in, they know that they're career, it's not career ending per se, but it can mean that they're out for six months. So you're going to surrender fast if you know you can't escape immediately because it could actually
00:58:53
Speaker
damage you severely. So yeah, it feels very legitimate for it to do that. It makes me wonder somehow some of these other submissions. I mean, I haven't seen any bear hug submissions in a while, so it's a good thing. You will. You will. It's a great match of two technical wrestlers versus the crowd. Yep.
00:59:20
Speaker
Based on the strength of matches like this, Nerwin Smiley's heal character really sort of takes off. He gets a nice mid-card push going next in a match against Travis Gower Jr., where he gets to be extra deviously evil, as I was trying to say. Okay.
00:59:35
Speaker
On the flip side, unfortunately, Prince IKEA's forums does not help him, and he's not on a pay-per-view for most of 99. Oh, that's kind of sad. Yeah. Unfortunately, he has to go through character rebranding, which Bob was aware of to get back on the shows. Jeez. But we'll cover that when that happens.
00:59:55
Speaker
We cut to the stage and Scott Hall shows up wearing an Outsiders t-shirt.
Scott Hall Reflects on 1998
01:00:00
Speaker
He slowly walks down the entrance ramp doing almost parodies of his old poses. Someone holds up a giant NWO Wolfpack credit card sign that was slightly strange. Hall gets into the ring as T'Nay tells us that he's been a man without a faction. Hall takes a microphone and hesitates a couple times, but finally speaks. Hey yo!
01:00:28
Speaker
I think you got to agree with me that being in DC for the holidays is just too. And it's no secret that 1998 ain't been the best year of Scott Hall's life.
01:00:57
Speaker
in and out of the ring. And I got nobody to blame for that but myself. I lost everything I ever cared about. That's okay. Later on tonight, a guy I used to look at is my big brother,
01:01:27
Speaker
Kevin Nash. He's got the opportunity of a lifetime. We rode up and down the road together and we used to talk about what it would be like to be the main man in wrestling. Well, Kev,
01:01:56
Speaker
You told me a while back that I had to prove myself to you. And a lot of people in buildings all around the country been telling me I gotta prove something to them. I ain't the smartest guy in the world, but
01:02:25
Speaker
I ain't gotta prove nothing to Kev. I'll use some negatives, he definitely proved that. I ain't gotta prove nothing to you. There's only one guy that I gotta prove something to. And he's 6'6", more handsome than 10 movie stars.
01:02:52
Speaker
And his name is Scott Hall. So I can't wait to kiss 1998 goodbye because I guarantee you that 1999 is my year. I'm going to be partying because it's 1999. I'm not normally a fan of Scott Hall promos, but this was actually pretty great, I thought.
01:03:23
Speaker
It felt like a guy acknowledging his problems, but being defiant in the face of them. Maybe for good, maybe for ill. Once he was past the catchphrases at the very start, it felt quite real to me. And I liked the mix of concepts. He feels like he's opening up to the fans, but he's also saying that they aren't the ones that he cares about judging him. It's an interesting and complicated promo.
01:03:44
Speaker
I confused a little bit because he doesn't have to prove anything to Kevin Nash, but then says he wants to prove something to Kevin Nash. So that feels like more of a turn at the end. No, he's proving something to himself. Well, I mean the very end when he's...
01:03:58
Speaker
by my Kevin Nash. I don't know, it just feels, he doesn't, it doesn't turn into contact with himself, but it feels like it's, it's like a turn away from needing to needing one to be his, you know, when he's approval and being around him, but then actively promoting the guy at the same time. It's confusing to me. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. It was an interesting promo.
01:04:21
Speaker
in that I'm not going to say it was unnecessary because it did wake up the crowd. The crowd did cheer at a couple points and I was trying to find out where he was going to go with this. Yeah. He just seemed like he was challenging himself and just basically said, this isn't the year for me. Yep. Yeah. So he probably wasn't expecting me to come out here, but here I am.
01:04:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think, for me, it's a good promo, but it is confusing about why it's on the show. This has not really anything to do with anything that's actually going on tonight. Well, it's foreshadowing. Right, but... I think it's good just saying that fight's there for this foreshadowing. Yeah, you just didn't need Kim to cut a promo to foreshadow. Obviously, for certain reasons, we need to know that Scott Hall is in the arena tonight, but we don't necessarily need him to walk out and cut a promo to do that.
01:05:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, the story will get you as the show ends. Feels stronger if there's no buildup of him at all. So when he does whatever happens, it's like, where's Scott Hall come from? As opposed to, well, we know Scott Hall's in the back. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a good segment, but maybe it would have been a good segment on a nitro. It doesn't need to be on this arcade. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree.
01:05:41
Speaker
Tony says it was one of Hall's most memorable interviews. I'm pretty sure someone would have had to ask him a question for it to be an interview. Oh, he was interviewing himself. Oh, there you go. It wasn't for the fans. Yeah. This is just one of those things like we marked this day in history. It's a tat-a-tat, just self. Yeah. Yes.
01:06:07
Speaker
We go to a video package covering the Bam Bam Bigelow versus Scott Hall feud. Um, sorry, I mean, it's actually about Nash versus Goldberg. It just takes forever to get there. Because first, it has to show the setup for an earlier Bigelow versus Nash versus Goldberg match, which started with Bigelow beating up Scott Hall in the backstage area. I actually thought for a moment that this was live when it started up since we just saw Hall cut a promo and leave until I realized Hall was in a different outfit.
01:06:35
Speaker
Another reason why I don't need to Scott Hall promo. Yeah, yeah, it's very strange. Aside from being confusing, this is notable only because we get a clip of Terry Taylor in a suit setting up that match. I haven't seen him since I think Starrcade 91, the first battle bullshit. Yes, he's the Peter Eyes man in the 1990s or whatever. Yes, yeah. Terrence Taylor, yeah. Yeah. As we briefly mentioned last episode while discussing the Sting vs. Hogan non-fast count, he is a backstage agent now.
01:07:03
Speaker
Otherwise, this was just confusing and did very little to set up Nash versus Goldberg. Not very good video packages tonight. Well, and it's funny, too, is the sole threat they're doing with Bayman Bigelow is that he's supposedly not working for the company. He keeps running in attacking Goldberg and trying to interfere. But then he wants a video package where he's in a sanctioned match with them. And then later it's like, what's he doing here? He works here.
01:07:31
Speaker
People we haven't seen in a long time. Bigel we haven't seen since... What track is that? 86? Oh my gosh, yeah. When was that one? 86 or 87? Somewhere around there? I want to say 86, but it's probably 87. Yeah. It's one of the two scaffold match shows. That narrows it down a little. It's been a while, yeah.
Ernest Miller vs. Perry Saturn: A Clash of Styles
01:07:50
Speaker
Our fourth match is Ernest the Cat Miller with Sonny Ono versus Perry Saturn. The referee for this match is Mickey J.
01:08:00
Speaker
Ernest Miller was hired off the strength of teaching Eric Bischoff's son Karate. Yes. He was brought in as a Karate guy as part of a lovely food that we can't wait to cover, which involves him and Wrath and Mortis and Glacier. Oh my gosh. On the epic battles with the ages. At this point, however, he is past all that. He is now a heel Karate guy managed by Sonny Ohno.
01:08:26
Speaker
Because apparently, if you're Asian or have any Asian connection, Sunnio must be orbiting around you in some way in WCW.
01:08:35
Speaker
That few came off of, I don't know, breaking away from young Kazayashi and using Ernest Miller to attack him and get his way with him, which brings in Perry Saturn, who comes up to defend the guy and help him out. In turn, Ernest Miller keeps attacking him and causing him to lose matches. So this is the big blow-off for the story, where Ernest Miller is the cheating, stippling heel, constantly bragging and taking people out.
01:09:01
Speaker
Ono has a mustard yellow suit and black shirt with white sunglasses. That look should not work at all, but somehow it actually kind of did? Aside from being a three-time world champion in karate and once in kickboxing, as Al mentioned, Ernest the Cat Miller was also Garrett Bischoff's karate instructor. Kind of like the short tiger robe that he had.
01:09:24
Speaker
Yeah. Heenan's midway through a sentence when Cat grabs a microphone for a promo. Cat tells the crowd to shut up, and Heenan apologizes and does so. That cracked me up. He feels no one paid attention to him. This is what he feels he has to do to get noticed. Hey, people, shut up! Sorry. You know, you people should be glad to see me out here. John is shaking his head.
01:09:54
Speaker
For once tonight, you get to see the greatest in action. And I got to be the greatest athlete to ever step foot in this ring right here. I see you people know talent. Look, you all love me. But right now, I got to whoop somebody. When I get through whooping this guy, you people don't know why I'm the best. Now get him out here.
01:10:21
Speaker
They already know that? I thought that was established. Well, they know he's the best. They just don't know why. Oh. Basic heal promo here. It makes his arrogance clear. Nothing really special. I did, however, like when he claimed the crowd loved him and posed while they booed and just pretended that they were cheering. That was pretty funny. It did what it had to do, but I really don't know why he had to cut a promo. Yeah.
01:10:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's kind of all it's worth saying about this, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, really. I like that he got a reaction from being a bad guy. It's like him and the crowd reacting the way they're supposed to for an age. Yes. It's nice. I do like, I don't know if you're not gonna try to play it, as part of his other promo continuing from this. He's like, at least once or twice, the crowd are making zero noise, and he yells at them to shut up. I've missed that. He's like, shut up, voices in my head.
01:11:17
Speaker
Maybe it's Randy Orton. Yeah. I don't know. I think they were trying to fill a void from Dusty not being there and failed. So you don't know why he's the best yet? No. I mean, he looks the best obviously, but I don't know why he's the best. Okay. Well, I'll have to wait and see if you change your mind.
01:11:44
Speaker
Perry Saturn's incredibly annoying siren brings him in. He's wearing a backwards bandana and a chain vest, which looks... interesting? At least the weird little fringe of hair is gone. Would he be better if he wore chainmail on his head? No. No, it would not. Too late to tell Scott it's time or that. Yes, it's too late. Got a little...
01:12:05
Speaker
Hienen points out that Sonny Ono has a pinfall win over Saturn, and Tony asks if he's doing PR for Ono now. Hienen says he wouldn't do that, no matter how much money Ono has in Japan, and Argentina, and Swiss bank accounts. Just the same guy you tried to sell a show to. Yes, yes, that's true. Kat takes the microphone again and tells Saturn that, by law, he has to give Saturn five seconds to leave before he rips him apart with his bare hands, then turns his back, counting.
01:12:34
Speaker
Saturn winds up the whole time, and Hienan jokes that the cat might end up on the south lawn of the White House. Ono tries to warn Cat, but Cat reaches five and turns around, and Saturn nails him in the jaw. Nice Popeye punch. It's a very quick patch. I actually would have liked that. That would have been hilarious, yes.
01:12:54
Speaker
Cat rolls out and yells at the fans as they taunt him. Cat stalls outside and insists that Saturn stay back. Saturn turns to talk to the ref, so Cat slides in, but doesn't quite reach Saturn for this ambush. Cat sheepishly looks up at Saturn and Saturn stomps him. That was pretty funny.
01:13:13
Speaker
Kat slips free, does a karate pose, and rolls out of the ring. Henan and Tanae build up Saturn's legit past as an army ranger and say that Kat's martial arts tournament wins aren't going to impress Saturn.
01:13:27
Speaker
Back in, Cat offers a handshake, bows, and kneels before Saturn. Saturn kicks him in the chest, but Cat rakes his eyes, sweeps his leg, and chokes him in various ways. Cat argues with Jay after a two-count, and Saturn levers Cat into a few two-counts as Tanay points out that Cat seemingly has no defense against Saturn's Matt wrestling. Cat rolls out, and Ono lectures him on letting Saturn wrestle him instead of keeping to his strikes, which is actually a pretty good manager moment there. Yeah. He earns that yen.
01:13:57
Speaker
Back in, Kat nails a sidekick, but wastes time celebrating and gets two. Kat lands strikes, but Saturn keeps rebounding off the ropes to fire back. Saturn counters a spin kick into a back suplex in a great spot. Saturn gets two off a swift spinning suplex, hits a swinging neckbreaker, and goes up, but Kat dodges a jumping axe handle and hits a sidekick. Both are down, and Kat rolls on top for two.
01:14:23
Speaker
Cat elbows free of a Saturn suplex and hits a big sidekick and beckons to Ono. Ono takes off his coat and gets in. Tony wonders why they're doing this since Cat will clearly be DQ'd if it works. Good question. I again don't have an answer. Sunny charges across the ring and lands quite a nice flying kick. To Cat. As Saturn escaped just in time.
01:14:48
Speaker
Ono, by the way, was himself a bantamweight world champion from 1975 to 1981. Kat angrily gets up and kicks Sunny to knock him flying, but Saturn hits the Death Valley driver on Kat for the three count and the win. Saturn celebrates and leaves, and Kat brushes off Ono as he attempts to apologize. Thoughts on this one?
01:15:12
Speaker
It's one of the matches where if you're judging it by the first half, it's really not that strong because there's all the promo build up, the silly wind up punch that takes forever. As funny as it is, the I'm going to lead, just kidding, I'm going back. And then it still takes a while to quite get into an actual even flow of the match.
01:15:32
Speaker
Because in theory, with the story they're going for, the striker versus wrestler sort of contrast is good. But I think it's really this point that Ernest Miller is not a strong enough actual wrestler to be able to go with it fast enough. So it's the more awkward, realistic wrestler versus striker thing than an actual dynamic. That makes sense. Ironically, this is two matches and two years in Starkades with Saturn that took a while to get to an even flow.
01:16:02
Speaker
That's true. I'd be mad they took whatever worked one later. I can't be too mad at that.
01:16:14
Speaker
Once he gets going, there are good moves. The only thing I would take points off for, because of the point scale thing, is the timing on the axe handle and then kick thing was a bit off. Yeah, he doesn't kick him quite right. I don't think he was supposed to interrupt the actual move, but he's clearly supposed to hit him faster as soon as he lands, yeah.
01:16:36
Speaker
I really wish he just didn't have the actual move. Yeah. Do a round kick, hit him in the chest. I don't want to kick him with a face coming off that break his jaw probably, but yeah. I would definitely just actually done the counter one. Especially given that like two matches ago we saw drop kick out in mid-air and it's like, oh man, you can do that, can't you? Yeah. My final note I wrote for was, a good nitro match, but why is it here? And my biggest point is that Ernest Miller takes a Deathfire driver and goes down, but doesn't land on his feet like a cat should.
01:17:08
Speaker
See, totally a diverse joke. Okay. Boo. Boo. Meow. Very interesting choice of opponents for this match. I think they're just trying to change things up and trying to find things that appeal to a larger crowd. Cat's kind of refreshing in that now we have different types of heals. You know, we can see like all the different ways you could be a heal.
01:17:31
Speaker
I did like the striker versus, you know, technique versus technique. And there was, like he said, a good managerial moment there, which I thought was a nice touch. I'm not used to seeing Sonyona give those things. Yeah. Wait, what?
01:17:45
Speaker
We've seen him manage in a lot of different matches, and this is the first time that I've said, oh, that was a good manager moment. Well, he's usually just taunting the whole time we're trying to distract, and I'm glad that they kind of went that way, because he gets kind of annoying, like in New Japan versus WCW. It was... Seven sunny Ono manager matches in a row. Yeah, so there's a segment in the middle where Saturn's going up against Rope, and the cat just kind of walks into a bunch.
01:18:15
Speaker
And then they just go back and forth a few times, which I thought was kind of nice, showing that they can both be strikers, so to speak. And then at the end, predictably, you have interference that backfires. And I thought that was just a nice finish for the match and kind of felt more in line with what I would expect from this. I don't know. Yeah.
01:18:37
Speaker
He disappointed you by being effective. So when he messed things up, you're like, oh good, that's what I was hoping for. Right. That was the only part about this match that I didn't like was that he just wasn't playing his role to its fullest until the very end.
01:18:55
Speaker
This had some pretty good comedy, but considering how short it was, for me, there was way too much stalling in there. Yes. I think the general story kind of works. Kat being overconfident and not having his guard up, so Saturn just manhandles him. But once Kat gets his head in the game, he holds his own until his temper brings about his downfall. It just feels a little weird to me just how outclassed Kat looks until late in the match.
01:19:19
Speaker
Heck, even to the end, the sidekick, which does look good, is really the only move that keeps working for him, which makes Saturn look kind of a little bit dumb. Third time, the cat goes for the exact same kick. You should probably see it coming. If it helps, that would become his finisher. Yeah. There's the feline-er, isn't it? Yes. Oh. That's the right reaction to that name. A proper Norman sigh of exasperation. Yes. If I was going to have something to do with, like, the tin roof.
01:19:49
Speaker
And they do realize that martial artists learn throws too, right? Not just strikes. I liked a lot of Saturn's counters and matwork, though. He looked really good here. But the match as a whole was just a little too slow and uneven for me. It did have fun moments, but not enough of them.
01:20:07
Speaker
Comparing the immediate future of these two is an interesting study of highs and lows. So the high point being, Perry Saturn gets engaged in a lengthy memorable feud with Chris Jericho, which are some of his more famous stuff. The flip side
Ric Flair's Defiant Promo
01:20:23
Speaker
is Ernest Miller has very exciting feuds against wrestlers like Scott Norton and Disco Inferno. Oh, that's not like they'd be your favorite feuds, Al.
01:20:34
Speaker
Yeah, he's one more but I'll mention that when the relevant person was up as well We go to the stage and Mean Jean wishes everyone in DC a happy and prosperous 1999 again several days early and brings in Ric Flair who comes out in a great sparkly silver robe Good to see the robes again
01:20:59
Speaker
Whoo! My God! Gene! We have finally arrived! Whoo! McLaren, very quickly, I'm going to get to the meat of the matter.
01:21:15
Speaker
Earlier on we got the news the other horsemen have been barred from the building They had to restrain Steve manga McMichael He was taken away by officials and apparently you'll have agreed to all of the stipulations Including not having a horseman here and the fact that Eric Bischoff could have the NWO black and white here understand this Bischoff
01:21:37
Speaker
today still runs WCW. He still calls the shots. I met with Arn. I met with Benoit. I met with Malenko. I told Mongo, it makes no difference. We're in the MCI center. I don't care who's here. Bischoff gets an ass kick tonight. Simple. I think you've got a lot of people that would like to see that. And me, Gene, when I say,
01:22:07
Speaker
Did we beat up Bishop? I mean, we beat up Bishop piece by piece. We stomped his arm. We strangle his neck. We bite his fingers. We gouge his eyes. We kick him in the—you know it!
01:22:25
Speaker
We put the figure four on him. We squeeze it until the bone goes kick. I've seen it. I've heard it. I've felt it. And with a little luck, the better grace of God, you, my friend, will find out what it means to be a jet flying limousine ride.
01:22:51
Speaker
Kiss stealing, wheeling, dealing. Son of a gun. Because tonight, you're going to bleed. You're going to sweat. And you're going to pay the price of wrestling tradition. Woo! Woo! All right, the response of the venture boy Ric Flair. No horseman in the building tonight. He and Eric Bischoff head on here tonight as part of Starrcade.
01:23:23
Speaker
Not really any surprise that Ric Flair cuts a very fun promo, especially when he loses his dang mind like this.
01:23:30
Speaker
I really like this one. Flair does a pretty great job of still laying out the story's important notes in the process. Bischoff's still powerful in the company and he's stacking the deck, leaving Flair without his allies and Bischoff with plenty who could come to help him. Good energy and good storytelling gets Rick Flair. Well at least we're getting this instead of the
Eric Bischoff's NWO Storyline Recap
01:23:49
Speaker
promo pack could build up the match. I hope they find that owl that they let in there.
01:23:58
Speaker
Just that intro for that promo is just like, oh yeah, here's the energy level dialed up to 11. Honestly, if I was just listening to the words and then he didn't have the woos and everything else, I'm like, it feels like he's channeling Ultimate Warrior. Yeah. It's completely bonkers. It is bonkers. As a promo. Yeah, absolutely. And so the noise that a bone makes when it's breaking is...
01:24:28
Speaker
I was aware of that. I thought it sounded more like a crack myself, but you know. Not from the inside, Bob. Oh, there you go. Okay. The ultimate woo-weer probably leaves the stage.
01:24:48
Speaker
Oh, the ultimate woo year. That is awesome. Man, if, if there had been a face, um, there's a brief time of both in the company together and WDF, that would have been great for the tag team. Oh my gosh. That would have been a terrific tag name. The ultimate woo years. Oh man. Yes. Absolutely.
01:25:09
Speaker
We cut to a very lengthy video package covering the entirety of Eric Bischoff's NWO-related storyline from 1996 to 1998. This was very well produced, but it's longer and far more complete than it needed to be. It goes on for three full minutes before it even reaches Bischoff vs. Flair. We see the Flair family again for the first time since Starrcade 1993. Lots of blasts from the past tonight.
01:25:39
Speaker
Their appearance doesn't go quite as well for them this time, with Bischoff beating up David and kissing Flair's wife Beth. It's quite a slick video package, and it does a good job of making Bischoff incredibly hateable, but only a quarter of its near four-minute runtime is actually spent on building the match tonight. I was very annoyed by this one. Yeah, just think, all that time they're wasting could have gone to that Saturn, Ernest Miller match. Really made it...
01:26:22
Speaker
We cut backstage to see Scott Steiner and Buff Bagwell taunting Conan about the Wolfpack being dead. Kind of odd to say given that their leader is having a world title shot tonight,
01:26:35
Speaker
Threatening Conan, Steiner lets slip that he promised Luger that he wouldn't attack Luger, so when Luger runs in to make peace, Conan is suspicious of him. Luger tells him, you gotta chill out, man. I'm cool. And scene. Not sure why that was on the show.
01:26:53
Speaker
That's important for Nitro. Of course, we gotta watch that now. Yeah. I will say in a few times, I'll say, and Stiner just got
NWO Tag Team Match Analysis
01:27:00
Speaker
Stiner's defense. The point he's trying to make with the Wolfpack is that they're down two members, some storyline in real life purposes at this point. So they were bigger open, they're down to basically like three people. Yeah, fair enough. But one of them may be world champion at the end of the night. Right. Well, he doesn't believe he's going to win. Yeah.
01:27:20
Speaker
Our fifth match is NWO Black and White members Brian Adams and Scott Flash Norton with Vincent versus Fit Finlay and Lightning Foot Jerry Flynn. I love that name. Lightning Foot? Yes. With Jerry Flynn's mullet. Referee for this match is Scott Dickinson.
01:27:44
Speaker
It feels kind of weird that we're seeing Jerry Flynn for our show well before the much more famous Jerry Lynn. Yes. But more famous and much better. It's worth noting that Flynn is another legit martial artist in the string of them tonight. His Wikipedia page claims that he came, quote, close to beating Goldberg in a series of matches in 1998. I got curious, so I took a look at several of them.
01:28:10
Speaker
I mean, sure, in the same way that one could get really close to beating a Grizzly Bear before being mauled. Okay, to be fair, he does land some nice kicks and get a hold or two, and I'm sure there's some matches that I didn't see, but still, no. He did actually get more offense in than Mongo, though.
01:28:28
Speaker
Seems like they have, like, a lot of new blood. I mean, they may not be new, but, like, a lot of first-timers, seems like they're just trying to, you know, make a name for themselves. I think that's a good use of Starrcade for non-stars to be part of Starrcade. I mean, yeah. Yeah. It's like they only have four different shows a week, and you get more of them other places. Yeah. A star is made. There you go. In Starrcade.
01:28:53
Speaker
They mistook it as Star Maid instead of Starrcade, yeah. I getcha. NWO theme count? One. As the teams enter, Tony says that they've just received a note from the WCW Executive Committee informing them that the Goldberg vs Nash match will now be a no disqualification match. Tine says he noticed the committee was behind closed doors debating for a while today, and Hienan says Tine was listening with a glass at the door.
01:29:23
Speaker
Tony wonders who pushed for the no disqualification stipulation. Brian Adams has very strange facial hair with pointy sideburns that look like little arrows pointing to the sides of his mouth. Not really a fan of that. Why not? Well, it's for the ladies. He's like, hey, right here. Oh, okay. What? Yeah. You heard me. I thought it was for like directing food.
01:29:51
Speaker
It's a reminder for himself what he uses to eat. Hamburger. Oh, there we go. Yeah, a real problem until then of sticking the hamburger in his ear. Finlay does well against Adam's... I gotta say, that was one of the weirdest comments you've ever made. It's kind of fun. Hey, right here. There's arrows.
01:30:12
Speaker
Finlay does well against Adams to start, eating a massive clothesline but returning his own jumping clothesline and elbow drop for two. A missed corner charge lets Adams tag Norton, who beats Finlay up and hits a big power slam. Flynn stays with the kick. Finlay slaps Flynn's back as he's ducking back through the ropes, which apparently counts as a tag now. Okay?
01:30:34
Speaker
Norton blows right through a double clothesline from the two and clotheslines both down. Flynn dodges a corner charge and hits a spinning wheel kick, using the ropes to flip himself safely outside. Today, mistakenly calls Flynn Thunderfoot instead of Lightningfoot. No one really cares. No, not really. Norton tags Adams.
01:30:53
Speaker
Flynn ignores a test of strength offer and hits kicks and chops, but Vincent sneaks in a blow from behind so Adams can hit a tilt-a-whirl backbreaker for two. Flynn is reaching Lucaresque Valium levels here. Yes! Flynn counters a couple Adams punches with a hold and kick in a neat little martial arts sequence.
01:31:11
Speaker
Finley tagged in, and he keeps up the attack with forearm strikes. Adams counters a back body drop attempt with a pile driver and tags Norton. He batters Finley, getting two off a neckbreaker. Finley tries for a tag, but Flynn stands there looking bored until he realizes what Finley is doing and finally reaches out. Norton drags Finley away and trades off with Adams to continue the beatdown, though Finley does get two off a DDT. Punch to Adams' balls gives Finley time to tag Flynn, and Adams tags Norton.
01:31:43
Speaker
Flynn lands several kicks and hits a neat spinning enziguri variant. Adams in with a double axe handle, but Finley in to team up for a double clothesline with Flynn to Adams. Finley and Adams brawl outside, and Flynn kicks in interfering Vincent, but Norton clotheslines Flynn and power bombs him for the three count and the win. NWO theme count? Two. Tony calls this a big win.
01:32:07
Speaker
Really? It's not every day you beat Jerry Flynn. It's like twice a week you beat Jerry Flynn. Yeah. But not every day. I think he was just talking about Norton. But like it being a big win for Norton? No, because Norton's big. Oh, okay. I getcha. There's a weird blank second or two in the video as the replay ends. I'm not quite sure what happened there. I guess just something wasn't quite timed right? Yeah.
01:32:33
Speaker
Thoughts on this one? It's a decent match. The high points for me are pre-limited, honestly. I would say it's really just the moments where you see Adams and Norton really showing off their pretty legitimate power. That said, it's a little weird that, as you mentioned, a piledriver is used and no pen attempted, and then neckbreaker is used and has been attempted. That seems backwards.
01:33:02
Speaker
When Flynn's actually in the ring just doing his kicks, I thought that looked good. He clearly knew how to do those correctly. Other than that, I don't have a whole lot to it. My note was that there's just no oomph to the match. And I'm just really not sure why it's on this show.
01:33:19
Speaker
It's not that it's so bad that I want it off the show. It's just it has to have some sort of significance to a bigger story or something. It's just we need nine matches and here's an extra match. It's a bad thing that we're saying that multiple times tonight. It is. Yeah. This is one more match in the previous show and it's definitely at least one match too many.
01:33:39
Speaker
Yeah. Well, maybe that's the NWO part of the show. True, they don't have a black and white NWO match, and it's such a huge part of events that they have to, so... It's in the logo. Yeah. It would feel a little weird if it was WSW, NWO, Starrcade, and he didn't have... Well, he had the Wolfpack there, NWO. They didn't say which NWO it is. Yeah, true. I just like Norton.
01:34:04
Speaker
They really played up his power in the thing. You know, basically people are trying to tag and take him down with teamwork and he just basically takes out the team. Like, multiple times throughout the match. And it seemed like more of a showcase match for him than most to anyone else. A lot of the other stuff I was like, okay, when are they gonna tag Norton? When are they gonna bring him back in? Because that's when the heavy hitting stuff happens. I mean, either it's to him or he's dealing it out.
01:34:32
Speaker
They did a good job, I was saying, with the kicks and everything. There's a martial artist theme that's sort of peppered throughout the whole night.
01:34:40
Speaker
I mean, Eric Butchdrop played the book in this show. True. All we need is a motorcycle segment and we'll know for a fact he's booking it. True. But yeah, you know, I mean, I guess if there was a running theme for tonight, it's always a wrestler or at least a striker versus a wrestler on some level, unless it's the first match or first one and a half matches. Really, the only thing real notable about this was Norton for me. And the commentators do a really good job of building him up too when he's making those moves.
01:35:09
Speaker
Norton was a big important character. Like, as an overall, that would absolutely be, oh, because this is why we need to showcase for him. Yeah, but I don't know that. Yeah. No. Not until I'm telling you that. Yeah, looking at it in a vacuum. It's like, oh, yeah, but I love this Norton guy pretty good. Yeah.
01:35:24
Speaker
No, I understand. No, I get that, yeah. I'm with you on that, Al's not, I'm sure, but... What part? Because you don't like Scott Norton. I don't hate Scott Norton, I just... I like Scott Norton pretty well, so... I'm mostly going to see about the brick pattern, I'm just tight. That is true. I don't know. That's a little weird. I don't understand that. But I think flash, I think brick wall. Yeah.
01:35:46
Speaker
Have we had Brian Adams in the show before? I don't believe so. I legit mix up Brian Adams and Brian Clark all the time. Oh, yes, me too. And Brian Clark, you know who he had. Brian Clark's the guy that almost got his neck flattened by Vader, I believe. He sits up when it's black and got murdered. Yeah, no, I believe this is our first time seeing Brian Adams. Okay.
01:36:06
Speaker
Yeah, this was okay, but I'm with you guys. There's no sense of any importance. It's just a match. There's some good power moves from Adams and Norton. Inflin's kicks were quite varied and nice. Honestly, sometimes better than Cat's.
01:36:19
Speaker
Flynn just really doesn't have much in the way of personality other than martial arts noises. He's got moves, but nothing binding at all together. Finlay just kind of seems to be there too, though he feels like the dependable guy you put in to kind of keep everything going, which works well enough. He's lucky.
01:36:38
Speaker
There's not much in the way of a story to this one or anything to raise it up. It's just a generic tag match, and like you, I'm confused why this is even on this show. Flair wasn't ready. Yeah. I know we don't be trying to get too much of the fancy booking, but I feel like if you could have just another fence to Scott Dornan, because he is a still alive and genuinely terrifying person.
01:37:01
Speaker
Even now, given the interview importance, I could easily see if you'd swap them out for Scott Steiner and both Bagwell. Two legit big important people in the video and had them win a tag match. That would have been slightly more important. And why are they not fighting Wolfpack members? I mean, I get Conan has a match later, but why isn't Conan's match Conan and Luger versus either these two or Bagwell and Steiner?
01:37:29
Speaker
It's like the entire focus of this year has been, as we mentioned at the start of the show, at least a large focus of this year has been Wolfpack versus Black and White. What do we not get on this show? Wolfpack versus Black and White.
01:37:46
Speaker
I mean, yeah, yeah, absolutely. If you're trying to make a match to make that story important, do some version where you have Buff and Lexus involved in the match. And since Luger is not involved in anything, put Luger in there. And the problem numerically is that there are only three people officially in the little pack at this point. But you have the official fourth person, which is Disco Inferno. So you can't just, not that I want that more Disco Inferno matches, but I was gonna say, now I see why they didn't do it. No, there you go.
01:38:16
Speaker
This girl probably pitched that, and they're like, oh yeah, hey, quick, you and Finley, you and Fling out there. Yeah. They could have made it more interesting and have
Bischoff's Insincere Apology to Flair
01:38:23
Speaker
Wolfpack and an NWO member on the same tag team. And then not only they enter fighting, they might pull it together enough to win the match and then beat the crap out of each other. Yeah. Yeah. It's just such a weird thing. There's like, there is no story going on in this match. It's just there to be a match.
01:38:46
Speaker
Yeah. Maybe it's just set there to set the tone so the next match would be that much better. It's the pace car for the... Yeah. Good planning. There's not a whole lot I can talk about with Norton and Adams without talking about other stuff, so we'll skip them for now. Jerry Flynn would get a personal if you'd leave the year with the person I mentioned before, Ernest Miller, which the Battle of Karate, which theoretically could be interesting. Fair enough, yeah.
01:39:14
Speaker
It would be very personal if you because Earth Miller would cut off his ponytail. I know. Do you donate it to like kids that need hair? Locks of love. Sorry for not knowing that immediately. Probably would have thrown it at them.
01:39:31
Speaker
Uh, the flip side, Finley would go from being the strong technical wrestler we see to going the direction of Bob will not like, which is the hardcore direction. Oh, yeah. That's 994, yeah, Finley. The red clover. Yes, fear the clover. Hienan is just asking how we'd like to be a fly on the wall of Eric Bischoff's dressing room when Bischoff's music hits.
01:39:55
Speaker
early, as we cut to Mean Jean Okerlund, who introduces, to our great surprise, Eric Bischoff. A totally different song starts up. Bischoff pokes his head out from behind the Starrcade logo and waves, then walks out with a big smile. He fakes wiping tears from his eyes. I do actually like the short hair and beard look for him.
01:40:21
Speaker
This thing goes much further than the NWO Black and White, NWO Hollywood, and WCW. This has gotten personal. Tonight, Eric Bischoff, it's you and Ric Flair. We know all about what's happened between the two of you, and tonight, it's gotta stop.
01:40:44
Speaker
You're right, Gene. And before we go any further, I want to say to everybody here in Washington, D.C. and including the first family. Hi, Bill! Hi, Hillary! Hi, Chelsea. I just want to say that I am profoundly sorry for all of the pain that I know I've caused.
01:41:09
Speaker
Not only Ric Flair and his family, but wrestling fans around the world. I know I've caused pain. I know I have spoken untruths about Ric Flair. And I want to set the record straight here tonight. I am profoundly saddened by the decision that Ric Flair has made to participate in this match tonight.
01:41:40
Speaker
I feel badly for his family, most of all I feel badly for Ric Flair because clearly here is a man that is pushing himself beyond his physical abilities. This is a man that each and every one of you should stand and cheer for because he is overcoming singularly the biggest obstacle any athlete could overcome, that of a bad heart.
01:42:09
Speaker
The man suffered a coronary. No other athlete in any sport would do what Ric Flair is about to do tonight. Risk his own life and his family's future by stepping into the ring with me. And there's one reason he's doing it.
01:42:24
Speaker
The man is broke. He's on his last leg financially. He needs the money. For you see, Ric Flair never saved a nickel. He never saved a dime. Out of the 104 years that he has been in that ring, he has never saved one nickel.
01:42:40
Speaker
Those jackets don't stud themselves. No. And when Ric Flair says he's a jet fly in Limousine, Ryan, Kistealan, son of a gun, the fact is that Ric Flair paid for those jets out of his own pocket. Ric Flair paid for those limousines out of his own pocket.
01:42:56
Speaker
I, on the other hand, fly in your Learjet every Monday night. And I ride in a limousine everywhere I go. The difference is, I save my money. My company pays for my Learjets and my limousines. And hey, Ric Flair, when it comes to get stealing, you know who's king! Good night, everybody! Harvey, I hope you heard that.
01:43:18
Speaker
Thanks for your thoughts, hilarious. Odd thing to be proud of. Yeah. Creepy ending there, just to mention that. Yes. Gene says, Harvey, I hope you heard that, referring to Harvey Schiller, Turner sports president and Eric Bischoff's boss.
01:43:34
Speaker
The majority of this, though, I thought was a good, insincere, jerk-heel kind of promo. Bischoff is quite good at that character, and he really lays it on heavy here, piling on the false sympathy and lies, and then ending with insult after insult to get the crowd good and mad at him. So I think it's a good promo. If a bit close to reality with WCW's eventual financial situation here. It's like, yeah, you do ride on a Learjet every Monday night, Eric.
01:44:02
Speaker
WCW is no longer a business as of now. Yeah. These things might be related. I am getting really tired of all these promos and videos though. It's just feeling like a little much.
Chris Jericho Taunts Conan
01:44:16
Speaker
We got a long video package and two promos for the Flair vs. Bischoff match. Couldn't we have just had the promos or the video?
01:44:23
Speaker
Preferably the promos since the video was much longer than it needed to be. Yeah, I feel like we do the math as well between the two promos video package That's actually longer than the match we get too. I believe so. Yes I am clearly understand what you're saying about the bring to be promos. I absolutely agree This one turn content to break it absolutely have no problem with this promo released Which is he come without for a match tell the top music and side to do the promo on the way to the ring and
01:44:51
Speaker
Yeah. As opposed to having him separately into the ring later. I can see that, yeah. Like if Rick's already in the ring and he's like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's like on the way to the ring. He's taunting him. Yeah. That makes sense. So we're not occupying any more time on the show. It's just, yeah. Yes. See, they got to learn good time management skills. That's all it is. Absolutely. I wish he wouldn't reference Chelsea. That was weird. He looks kind of like Dr. Strange, but like Dr. Creepy.
01:45:23
Speaker
I don't know the exact timing of this, but I'm pretty sure by this point, WVF has done a show where they supposedly had Bill Clinton at the show, which is just the impersonator. So if K-Fate was to be believed, Bill Clinton physically attended WVF shows. If you're calling him out, he's clearly not watching this show.
01:45:43
Speaker
We're gonna go one clown to another now, Tony says, throwing to a video package about the Jericho Conan feud. Ah, another video package.
01:45:55
Speaker
We see Jericho posing with a fake Conan, who he beats up and puts in the lion tamer hold. His security guy, Ralphis, holds a microphone for him to continue taunting Conan while he's holding the guy in the hold, which was creative at least. It's a short enough video, I guess, but did it really tell us anything other than that Jericho is fighting Conan?
01:46:14
Speaker
Now, nope. So, our sixth match is Chris Jericho with Ralphis versus Conan for Conan's WCW World Television Championship. Referee for this match is Billy Silverman.
01:46:27
Speaker
So 1998's a big year for Jericho in WCW. It's when he gets to really be the true heel of Shelf, he's clearly wanted to be for all his time. His early stuff in WCW, it's good wrestling wise but he's so stifled character wise. He just smiles, he would just smile and cheer and then wrestle good matches but has no character. Now he's a heel, his best work definitely happens there for sure.
01:46:53
Speaker
He has all of you with Malenko, which we'll cover when we go out to those shows, which is really strong. Off of that, he gets to win a couple titles, including the TV title, which he lost about a month before the show. This is late November on Nitro, he loses it.
01:47:06
Speaker
It's when they're trying to build up the story where the Wolfpack is getting stronger. It's a show after World War III with Kevin Nash. Conan wins the TV title, so it's showing their direction going upwards. Oh, okay. Jericho, when his response to losing the title, would bemoan the whole event, claiming there was conspiracy, claiming there was cheating. He's arrogant. He didn't get his way, so now he's going to be extra-helish now.
01:47:30
Speaker
which includes the previous Nitro where he attacks Conan and takes the TV title, which is why he comes out wearing it on this one. Let's see to eventually explain. Okay. Jericho has a rockstar kind of outfit and his rather strange hairdo. Long hair, but with an extra little bob on the top of the head. I never quite got that look. He evened the snooki hair of Kyle before. Way before Hershey did.
01:47:56
Speaker
reminiscent of the Maho Magic Girl series. Popular manga. I'm not sure that you want your hairstyle to be reminiscent of the Maho Magic Girl series myself, but you know.
01:48:15
Speaker
As you mentioned, Al, he's wearing the TV title even though Conan is champion. His WCW theme has been replaced on the WWE Network version with his WWE theme. I'm guessing it's a copywriter licensing theme, but it's funny. Jericho grabs a microphone. For crap's sake. I like Jericho, but really?
01:48:42
Speaker
Okay, that caught me.
01:48:55
Speaker
of all in a couple seconds, Conan AKA baby Huey is gonna come out here, he's gonna start talking and to be quite honest with you I guess I'm just not hip enough because I don't understand what this guy is talking about.
01:49:13
Speaker
I don't know what rowdy rowdy means. I don't know what bowdy bowdy means, but I can tell you this. I am the man of the hour, the man with the power, the man too sweet to be sour. I am the woman's pet, the man's regret, the man with the voice, the Jerika Hollick's choice.
01:49:40
Speaker
The choice of the Jericaholics to be the greatest television champion of all time. And for gosh sakes, baby Huey, show some fashion sense. Show some je ne sais quoi like Ralphis and myself. Pull up your pants because your drawers are hanging out. Daddio. Thank you.
01:50:05
Speaker
I again have no idea why we needed both this and the video package. You run video of Jericho cutting a promo, then Jericho comes out and cuts a promo. Yes. Why? Also, why baby Huey? I don't know. I don't know. Otherwise, again, decent arrogant jerk promo. Jericho is good at doing promos. It's just I'm very much done with all the promo segments tonight.
01:50:33
Speaker
It's nice to see Ralphis on the show. Yes, it is nice to see Ralphis on the show. Jericho's good too, I guess. Who's Ralphis? He was a truck driver, I believe, right? I believe so, yes. And Jericho saw the guy I thought he would be fun to have on as his security guy slash bodyguard slash guy to accompany him to the ring.
01:50:56
Speaker
Yeah, the idea in Jericho's mind was a good, serious character should have a big, scary bodyguard. But he's Chris Jericho, and he's a more comedic character. So his bodyguard should look even less entertaining than he is. Yeah. Okay. And he liked the gap to smile that Raph is having. I mean, it makes sense to a certain degree, but I was just trying to see what the background was.
01:51:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's pretty much it. He thought it'd be a funny part of the character to be like, this kind of chunky guy is my bodyguard, rather than a big intimidating dude. Yeah, it was Derek of personal security. Derek of personal security, muffin top. Yes. He couldn't afford shirts that fit, it was really sad. Yeah, that was the part that I was like, all right, all right.
01:51:43
Speaker
Well, you don't have to buy a longer shirt because all the weird jet money they're spending on Eric Bischoff. Yes. Conan enters. NWO Wolfpack theme one. Ding. I hate the Wolfpack theme. I think it's the kind of crappy sounding wolf howl that it starts with primarily. And much like the NWO theme, just how often you're going to hear it on some shows. So have you turned your back on the Wolfpack? Because I told you're not supposed to do that. Yeah, yeah.
01:52:12
Speaker
Conan grabs a microphone and runs through a bunch of catchphrases. It's not a real promo, so I'm not playing it. He is rowdy rowdy and bowdy bowdy, you know? Like Jericho, I am somewhat confused about what that means. Play Master P.
01:52:25
Speaker
The actual match begins, finally. Hooray! It's mostly even to start with strikes and some acrobatics, including a Conan dropkick to a seated Jericho after a monkey flip dodge and a Jericho spinning wheel kick. Conan finally clotheslines Jericho out, and Jericho hits the barricade, but Jericho pushes Conan aside on a dive into the barricade himself. Jericho moves the steps, but Conan reverses a whip to send him to the barricade instead. Jericho uses the ring post.
01:52:52
Speaker
Back in, a Jericho suplex and a showy flexing pin with one foot. Come on, baby! Jericho yells, but gets two. That was good. Tony, I think, mentions that has not worked for him once, but he keeps doing it. Correct. Jericho keeps telling Silverman to ask him on a rear chinlock. Another Jericho tradition there.
01:53:14
Speaker
Conan gets a boot up on a dive, whips Jericho to the ropes, and follows right after with a nice rolling clothesline. Jericho tries to go up and over on a corner whip, but Conan catches him, slams him, and flips over into a pin for two. Nice spot. Jericho comes back with a jawbreaker and a clothesline, then is running second rope moonsault, the lion's salt, for two. Conan rolls out, and Jericho tries a springboard dive, but Conan shoves him into the steps that Jericho moved earlier. Ow.
01:53:44
Speaker
Yeah. Back in, that gets two. Jericho tries the Lion Tamer's submission hold, but Conan grabs the legs to block, so Jericho catapults him into the top rope instead. Conan fights back with kicks in the corner, but Silverman tries to force a break and Conan accidentally knocks him out. Jericho hits Conan with a TV title, wakes Silverman up with a slap, and gets two.
01:54:09
Speaker
Jericho throws a tantrum, and Conan counters a whip with a facebuster and locks in the tequila sunrise hold for the submission victory, reclaiming his TV title.
01:54:22
Speaker
So what was the point of that segment with Steiner and Bagwall threatening Conan earlier then? Was that just entirely pointless? Mostly. Yeah. Seems like if you're going to threaten the guy, you might want to maybe stop him from retaining his TV title. Yeah. Seems like something you might do. I know that's me like asking for interference, but it's like if you're setting it up, you might as well do something with it.
01:54:47
Speaker
You could have them try to interfere and have them work. Yeah, exactly. Like Luger stops them or something. Yeah. Thoughts on this one? It was one that I kind of mixed on. There's some points where I like the sort of build up payoff, like the steps around. It's not an immediate payoff, so it's almost like a check off step. You forget they're moved and then they're coming to play.
01:55:10
Speaker
The other side, though, is there's not a lot of heat to this for me. Jericho does play a really good heal, I mean, wrong. That's always been his strength. Yeah, I'm doing the posing taunt and, you know, the yelling at the ref and stuff. His character work is 100% on point. It's just the two of them, I don't know, they don't have
01:55:30
Speaker
dynamic I was really hoping for with Jericho match. It's not bad. It's just okay. And I was, I don't know, maybe cause it's Jericho I'm expecting more, but
01:55:41
Speaker
It was okay. Definitely, Jericho is the high point of that. Taking another look at Conan, just his character shines more whereas Conan is more reacting. Other than the promo, obviously. In the match itself, he's just a babyface guy fighting through the match where Jericho slips in these little moments where he taunts the crowd or does his pin and everything. His is a more complete interesting character to me than Conan at this point. That's all.
01:56:05
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think there was great chemistry between the two for the match. Um, I think that was more in line with the pacing though. They could have given Jericho longer bits and maybe like stretched out just a little bit. So there was more impactful, but it was great moves, great energy, a lot of power and strength. And, you know, they had lots of great stuff. It's just that like, it didn't feel impactful if you just get up
01:56:31
Speaker
Half a second later and go into the next set of moves It's almost like if they had maybe another I don't know four minutes from a video package being cut earlier Maybe that would have been helpful Perhaps
01:56:48
Speaker
You know, I did like that, you know, Jericho just moved the stairs just to be half amused against him. Yeah. That was nice. No, I think that they did decent performances, but they could have done better with pacing and video package may or may have not been part of that. Yeah, the first time that I watched this show, I found this one really dull.
01:57:12
Speaker
The second watch was much more positive as I started the night on the match itself. I think the collection of promos has just put me in a really bad mood. Being able to view the match alone was much better. I still think it's more of a collection of often nice spots than a cohesive story. I don't really get the sense of much of a plan from either wrestler.
01:57:34
Speaker
But all the same, there is some story building around Jericho being hoist on his own petard with the ring-step spots, and I like the faults finished with Conan kicking out of the belt shot. The kick-out was a pleasant surprise. I just feel like
01:57:49
Speaker
They've got all the big spots, but not the buildup and the reasons for the big spots. The toppings without the ice cream. Yeah. I guess both full sprinkles. Yeah. Which I guess I'd be kind of okay with, but you know, not as good as the ice cream, which is, you know, sure, sure. There you go.
01:58:06
Speaker
It's weird because I actually do like this match, but I just feel like I should like it more than I do I think it's the same reaction you were having out where like it's Jericho. I really like Jericho. I'm pretty good with Conan Yeah, this feels like it should be a really good match and it's a it's an okay match Yeah, so even though it's entertaining. It's still like I can't even say it's disappointing. It's just like entertaining, but it's not entertaining yeah, and
01:58:32
Speaker
I think the previous match and the Bischoff promo and video packages are still lingering for me at this point, you know, and then you throw more video packages and promos on top of it. It's just sort of like Marty and like in a mood to, Oh, great. Yeah. You know, it's too much.
01:58:51
Speaker
Yeah, I was telling Al when he and I watched it together and you can verify, I was clearly like checked out at the time of this match. For sure. There were spots that came up when I was doing the show notes that I had no memory of whatsoever. Like none. That told me how much I completely checked out on this match. For sure. I blame them more on Bischoff than I do the previous match though, to be perfectly honest.
01:59:17
Speaker
Jericho would leave WCW about the middle of 1999, mostly because he felt these creative legs were being taken out from him. He tried to charge you with Goldberg, which nobody would help him with, basically. Goldberg refused to even acknowledge it, which temporarily makes sense. But there's never the payoff it should be with Goldberg beating him up properly. So that sort of set him in the mindset of, I can do whatever I want, but
01:59:45
Speaker
I'm not going to be able to deliver fully because they're not letting me. Yeah. So he signed his WDF and obviously does quite well there. Yes. For many years. Yes. And obviously still going strong today. Yes. All that stuff with Scott Steiner and Buff Bagwell threading Conan pays off on Nitro the very next day.
02:00:05
Speaker
where we have a match between the two, which due to some lots of interference and mistime assistance with Lex Luger, leads to scratch time and win the TV title. Okay. Why are we using the pay-per-view to set up the free show? Yeah, that's a good point. Jeez. Note for historical purposes, 1997 show did not have a TV title match. It's champion at that point was just Conferno, so I'm not disappointed that we didn't have one.
02:00:32
Speaker
But that is the exact same trend. They had the very next night's row, he loses a title book or T. So two years in a row, TV tape man just lose the very next night and not on the show that you would think they would for maximum impact. Yeah. It's tradition. We cut to Lee Marshall with The Giant at WCW's internet desk. Poor Giant has curled up really tight behind the desk like there's not enough room for him to fit. Yeah.
02:01:02
Speaker
I think it's safe to say anybody who's felt that chokeslam wants nothing ever, ever to do with you again. But you look at Diamond Dallas Page. He took that horrific chokeslam from you. He got out from it, kind of laughing in your face almost by showing up here tonight. What are you trying to say?
02:01:17
Speaker
Well, I'm saying that you gave it to me. Are you trying to rub it in my face? You don't think I can't stop Diamond as Paige? That's not a lot. You don't think I can't stop him? Let me tell you something, Lean Marshall. You take this and all your little computer games and realize one thing. I am the giant. Yet tonight, I'm going to squash Dallas Paige like the giant that I am and the cockroach that he is. Do you ever get in my face again? I really, it wasn't a personal, it was, I was just talking about the, well, the choke slap.
02:01:45
Speaker
Wow. Can we stick with this? Can we go? Lee Marshall may be getting Chokeslam. We wouldn't miss that. Short and fair enough bit here that built up how annoyed Giant was at Paige's resilience, but dang, there's a lot of promos on this one. I'm not sure that this added much beyond what's going to show in the match itself myself. Yeah. I did love Tony asking if they can go back and see if Lee gets Chokeslam though. That was hilarious.
02:02:13
Speaker
At least it was Lee Marshall, not Mark Madden. That's always a positive. It wasn't great. I thought it was a little playful. Have fun with it. It was certainly shorter than a lot of other promos. That is true. It's nice and quick. Yeah. He keeps it short. So that's kind of nice guitar riff at the end. Speaking of nice guitar riffs, our seventh match is EZ-E, Eric Bischoff versus Rick Flair.
02:02:43
Speaker
The referee for this match is Charles Robinson.
02:02:47
Speaker
Okay, so we obviously addressed the little before and plus we had the video package addressing some of this. Oh my gosh. So, you know the general gist of this, which is that Bischoff's evil boss, he's doing stuff to make everyone happy. Behind the scenes, about a month before at Nitro, Flair tells him, he tells him to send David, his name at the rest of his point, I believe in high school, Boston College, tells him he has a big tournament and he's not gonna be available with that show. They say, fine, sure, it's the month we've got some time.
02:03:14
Speaker
Day of the show, Bischoff suddenly decides that they need Ric Flair in the show and is irate of the fact that Ric Flair is not there, even though he knew he wouldn't be there.
02:03:27
Speaker
They sort of try to turn that into the part of the story. So it becomes Bischoff personally being mad at Flair. They just don't say that, but they're really trying to sort of work the internet in the early days of that. That's why Flair is in this point, basically. A weird mix of reality and fantasy. Yeah. The wrinkle, of course, as was mentioned, the Bischoff promo, they have Flair fake a heart attack.
02:03:53
Speaker
for some reason, and they famously don't tell the boys in the back, including our Anderson, who does not take that well. Yeah, they did not tell Arne that. Is that the promo where he has the line too? Yeah, I was going to say, you want to cover the famous line? Yeah, where he's yelling at Bischoff and says, Bischoff, I'm going to reach down your throat and rip out your heart and show the people that you have no heart.
02:04:23
Speaker
So is your hand empty or? See, I guess the logic of it would be that he's ripped out his heart, so now he has no heart. But I'm sure that's not what he meant. Yeah. Ric Flair has some perplexing lines sometimes, but that's among the most perplexing. Yeah.
02:04:39
Speaker
Maybe you're supposed to say no heart left. Yeah. Can rip out his heart and then pull up next to every scene and show you the empty gap where his heart used to be. Yeah, I think he just mixes two concepts in one single sentence. It's like the Owen Hart kicked your leg out of your leg thing. Yes. Yeah. It's almost worth all these knowing promo packages that that hilarious bit exists. Yes. Almost. Interesting side note.
02:05:04
Speaker
This is the first time that Ric Flair has been featured on a Starrcade and has not been in the main event. We get a sign in the crowd. It says, Impeach Hogan, elect Sting. I think that's what WCW was trying to do last year, man. Right. Also, you kind of skipped a step. Yeah. It has to first be elected. Yeah, exactly.
02:05:28
Speaker
Bischoff's out first, Flair second. Flair takes off his robe midway down the ramp and sprints to the ring, and Bischoff slides out. Flair chases Bischoff around and beats him up outside, then rolls him in. Bischoff pleads for mercy, but Flair keeps it up, even choking Bischoff, and after Robinson stops that, seeing if he can stretch his mouth out a bit. That looked pretty painful. Yeah, a little fish-o-kin.
02:05:51
Speaker
Some kind of confetti seems to be falling from the ceiling for some reason. I'm not sure why when it started, but it keeps going for quite a while. Yeah, it's like the tiny squids in Watchmen. They just sort of fall from the sky whenever. Flare continues the destruction of Bischoff. Bischoff tries to gain some time by claiming that his knee is hurt, but Flare just starts abusing Bischoff's knee then. When Flare puts Bischoff's leg on the rope to continue the attack, Robinson makes him break, and Flare turns to him, leaving himself open for a Bischoff kick to the head.
02:06:21
Speaker
Flair rolls out and Bischoff celebrates before following to ram Flair's head into the barricade. Flair blades. That was fast. Shocking. Bischoff takes over in the ring with good kicks and bad punches, but a Flair punch to the balls turns the tide. Tony says that Flair should do it again. Flair does. DQ? Nah. Flair rips Bischoff's shirt off. We don't need to see that, Tony says.
02:06:49
Speaker
But Robinson tries to force a break on corner punches and Flair knocks him aside. Robinson is down as Flair props Bischoff on the ropes, gets a good run-up, and kicks him in the crotch. Tony jokes that Flair will be punting for the NFL.
02:07:04
Speaker
Flare belly to back Suplex and he asks the crowd if they want more. They do. Flare stalling Suplex and figure four leglock, but Robinson is out. Kurt Hennig, in nice blue suit, runs down and slips Bischoff some kind of object, and Bischoff slugs Flare in the face with it, then wakes Robinson and slumps onto Flare for the three count and the win. Bischoff holds up his hand in victory, object still there, and a dazed Robinson tries to get a look, but Bischoff quickly snatches the object with his other hand to hide it.
02:07:34
Speaker
Henik pulls Bischoff out of the ring before Robinson came to recover enough to look. Thoughts on this one? My note was that it was a messy but structured brawl. Because there's definitely a story which is that Rick Flay just wants to beat up Bischoff. They eventually get to the middle point where Bischoff gets to do his kicks, which they got to with the previous year's show. And obviously we have no Scott Hall because of the whole storyline where Scott Hall is kicked out in a new O.
02:07:59
Speaker
I think my issue is, there's both two issues. First off is, Bischoff really doesn't have much at this point. Like I said, his kicks are okay, but it's definitely not enough to sustain you, as we've learned from previous people on the show. His kicks aren't just not enough, and his aren't as good as... Yeah, the martial artist's strength continues, by the way. Yes. He was good at skipping. That's true, yes.
02:08:24
Speaker
he didn't have much to give both like stamina wise and his offense is not that great. Flair's good but I don't know it doesn't feel
02:08:33
Speaker
Like, truly passionate Rick Flair, it feels like Flair is doing the moves he does. Vaguely in the sequence he does, you know, you got the sidey blades, and the soup flag goes bigger for. Weirdly for Matt to spilt around him being passionately angry and defiant, and I just don't feel that other than him just saying it. Yeah. Well, to jump in in the beginning when he was like, ran down the ramp and went in, felt like it was going to be a great intro, like that he was passionate, but it kind of waned.
02:09:02
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So other, other aspects. So Charles Robinson is known as being a Big Work Flare fan, I believe at this point. I think that actually comes a little bit later. I mean, yeah, not the full thing where they're actually aligned together. That's definitely. Yeah. Let's find a little funny that Charles Robinson is being the referee in this match that has designed to be against Flare. And you guys pick for that. I think they have another famous quicker referee that could use perspectives like this.
02:09:31
Speaker
and figure video why weren't they involved
02:09:35
Speaker
The whole point is to get the horseman not able to help and he gets his dick for five minutes and then one guy helps him out. Yeah. And it's Kurt Hennig. Yes. Who I believe had been like absent for a while and then just comes back here. I believe that was the case. Yeah. Where rather than any of the other NWO black and white members that we know are there, like Bagwell and Steiner were backstage for some reason, but aren't out here. Yeah. Yeah. You think that you could have made a bigger thing of it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
02:10:05
Speaker
And I don't know was the cheap finish is sadly expected. Yeah. One of the few matches like I've seen flair like being okay with the loss.
02:10:16
Speaker
No, I thought it was a decent premise and it started out pretty good. You have Bischoff doing his sheepishly leaving the ring and walking around and pretending he's hurt and endearing things. So, you know, there was a nice narrative, but really it's like heel versus heel overall. I didn't think that Flair really played up the face more. He's kind of at this stage, he's the heel that you love anyway kind of thing is Flair's gig here. He's just such a
02:10:46
Speaker
traditional figure in wrestling that no matter what he's doing the crowd loves him. Yeah. So even though he's very much doing a heel act with the punching people in the balls and kicking them in the balls and doing anything else would seem weird. Just the crowd still treats him as a good guy. Yeah. But it's one of those weird things that happens in wrestling sometimes. Yeah.
02:11:08
Speaker
Yes, like even later Rick Flair, like in WWE rather when he would come in, he'd be the good guy and the villain would be beating him up like doing actual moves and strikes. Then he'd punch him in the ball of the refs track and like, yay! Everyone's like, oh, that Rick Flair.
02:11:23
Speaker
He punches people in the dick. Yeah. It was also one of those weird things where usually they do a good job of keeping the camera back and giving the announcers the ability to be like, oh, he didn't have anything, you know? They zoomed in on Bischoff's weapon and he's like, oh, I'll...
02:11:41
Speaker
poorly switched this from one hand to the other after everything's done. I thought that was just... I wasn't sure if that was a bit they were going for at the end or if that was a near botch, but... I thought it was a bit. He at least did kind of very quickly grab it, which was kind of nice, but... He should have turned the crowd like the last object he used to cheat. Yes. Here you go guys, wee! Wee! I knew there was going to be some sort of foul play to finish the match though, given the characters. I honestly wasn't certain who was going to win.
02:12:11
Speaker
The crowd reaction for Flair is great, and I appreciated that this largely kept to the template from last year's Bischoff match. His kicks can be strong, but he's not going to do enough sustained damage with his offense to take down Flair clean, just like with Zabisco. This one just didn't feel as well put together, though. Developments just seem quite sudden, like Flair blading after literally one kick and a single knock into the barricade. I mean, I know it's Flair, he bleeds all the time, but that felt really fast.
02:12:39
Speaker
Yeah. You do still always get a story with Flair. With the Figure Four, he can just start working the knee to give the match some direction, so that's good. That's just, like you guys were saying, this didn't feel like a hate-filled blood feud kind of match, despite Flair nailing Bishof multiple times in the crotch. The personalities are there, but they're not turned up to 11 the way I thought they would be. It's a little more aggressive and angry than normal, but not a lot.
02:13:03
Speaker
I really would have preferred a flare win given the storyline here. It just doesn't feel like Bischoff should be getting away with all the things he's done. But otherwise, I really can't put my finger on much that this match actively does wrong. I just didn't find that I liked it all that much. The personalities are good. It's just, there's not much going on, I guess. Yeah. Kind of a disappointing sequel to the last Bischoff match, right? Wasn't even super big fan of. It's just, Bischoff wasn't as good. Yeah. Yeah.
02:13:34
Speaker
No, it's one of those rare things that, like, I actually want Flair to win, so... But it is a little bit disappointing. Yeah. Oh boy, there is more to the story.
02:13:44
Speaker
So the very next night, Flair cuts his passion in promo about wanting to get Bischoff, especially F coming off of Starrcade where he loses. They play a video package earlier where Bischoff and Hennig and other people are bragging about how they won and everything. So it's what set him off more. He turns out an actual hard deck again because it works just as well the second time.
02:14:05
Speaker
Yeah. That's where it was a crazy promo where he like takes all his clothes off and sets his shorts. I've heard of that one. That's weird. Yeah. He basically, he puts literally everything on the line. He says he quote, give up all his possessions. If he loses this one match again to Bischoff.
02:14:22
Speaker
And in exchange Bischoff will be out of power if he loses. So it's everything versus everything. As you can probably guess, since Flair did not give up all his possessions, this leads to him winning, and basically he replaces Bischoff with a write-off storyline that way.
02:14:40
Speaker
So yes, this match was entirely pointless. That's just weird. Like if you're going to do that anyway, why not do that on Starrcade? Yeah. Give people the big, Oh, that's awesome. Player one, you know, he beat Bischoff. He's finally out of power. That's such a huge story moment, but it's not on Starrcade. Nope. And it's literally the next night. Yep. That is bizarre. Gotta hop the ratings, man. I mean,
02:15:08
Speaker
It really is feeling like this one, like what is the point of this show in a way? Like not maybe not the entire show, but a lot of this show is feeling like you're using this show to set up the free show. And it's...
02:15:23
Speaker
There's a general air of desperation, I think, with WSW at this point. They're doing really well, but they're past the streak of beating WF. So they're like, whatever we gotta do to get the ratings back above WF, we gotta do it. And of course, I mean, sacrificing parts of the biggest show of the year just to hop the ratings. It's just strange that it's like you have actually a perfect ending to that storyline.
02:15:51
Speaker
that you do on the next night instead of on this night. It's like 97 all over again. You got a perfect ending. You just didn't do it. Why pay for this show and this match when you can just watch it tomorrow? Oh, hey, it's another video package, Joy.
02:16:12
Speaker
This one's building up to DDP versus Bret Hart. Oh, sorry. DDP versus the Giant. We just spent a lot of time with Bret Hart in this package. Largely because Giant's feud with Paige seems to be largely about Giant interfering with Paige's attempt to fight Bret Hart. Kind of feels like the match should be Paige versus Bret Hart with Paige finding a way to stop the Giant from interfering then, but I guess Paige just wants Giant more. The choke slam off the stage featured in the package looked kind of awesome at least.
02:16:42
Speaker
So our eighth match is The Giant versus Diamond Dallas Page. The referee for this match is Billy Silverman.
02:16:50
Speaker
Sorry going into this match is that DDP would lose his US title due to some shenanigans involving the Giant as they don't ever like to say would definitely apply pretty strongly in the video package. At this point, by the way, Bret Hart is aligned with the NWO. He's part of the black and white group. Despite the fact that he came in last year specifically to stop them from doing shenanigans. Yes. He has now joined them.
02:17:15
Speaker
Yeah, both people whose story arc of last year's show was to stop the intabuo are both to have joined it in some form or another. At least Sting only joins the wolf pack, but still, I'm gonna stop talking before I rant on that. DDP loses his title and can't get his rematch properly because Giant is attacking him, so he figures I gotta take Giant out and then I can go back after Bret Hart. Okay.
02:17:40
Speaker
They still were obviously the Bret Hart match, unfortunately. Yeah. Again, it's Starrcade, and the match that you're putting on is not the match that you're building towards, but the match to build towards the match you're building towards. Correct. Yeah. It also means the US champion, Bret Hart, is not wrestling on the show. Yep. Giant enters, mocking Diamond Dallas Page's Diamond Cutter sign. NWO theme count? Three.
02:18:02
Speaker
Woo! Paige's pyro scares Henan, and Paige runs on over to pose by the announcers to Tony's amusement, and atop the internet table, and in the crowd. Giant just kind of sits there atop the top turnbuckle to wait for him to finish, looking bemused. Tine tells us that Paige has been working on new variations of the Diamond Cutter to deal with the Giant.
02:18:23
Speaker
Giant spits his gum at Page, so Page spits back at him. Page lands strikes, but Giant blocks an early Diamond Cutter attempt, so Page clotheslines him out of the ring. Page is about to dive after him when Giant just grabs his feet and drags him out instead. Kinda like that twist there.
02:18:39
Speaker
Giant gets the better of a brawl and headbutts Page to send him over the barricade. Page lands with ribs across a trashcan. That couldn't have felt very great. No. Page uses the can to block a Giant Punch and smacks Giant with a can. The ref was right there, so DQ? Nah. We're good. Giant flings Page to the steps for about a 0.4 Sena. Yeah. We're good.
02:19:06
Speaker
Giant rams Page into the ring post a couple times, then hurls Page over the top rope back into the ring. That looked cool. Yes. Back in, Giant methodically assaults Page's leg, and earns several one counts off a leg lock. Page gouges Giant's eyes to get free, and Giant is angry.
02:19:24
Speaker
Giant takes Page apart, batting aside his comebacks. A battered Page uses Giant's own body to pull himself to his feet as the crowd claps for Page, but Giant just tosses him into the air and catches him into a bear hug. It doesn't last long.
02:19:39
Speaker
Giant sends Page absolutely flying with a slap, shoves away a Diamond Cutter attempt, and hits a monster power slam. Page is dead. But Giant stops his own pin twice, and tells Silverman, I'll pin him when I'm good and ready. Giant mocks the Diamond Cutter sign. Giant tosses Page into an elevated bear hug again. The arm stays up on Silverman's third check, and Page claps his arms around Giant's head and bites his nose to get free.
02:20:10
Speaker
Paige with an interesting loop around sunset flip variant, but Giant just picks him up by the throat, holds him high, and smashes him into a backbreaker. Ow, ow, ow. Paige screams as he lies on the mat, and Giant taunts him as Paige tries to drag himself away. Giant gets overconfident, and Paige surprises him with a beautiful float over DDT. A diamond dream, apparently.
02:20:36
Speaker
Both are down, but Page crawls on top for two, but Giant throws him right onto Silverman to knock the ref out. Bret Hart charges the ring with a chair, and Giant holds Page, but Page escapes and Hart nails the Giant. Page punches Hart in the crotch to send him rolling out, and crawls on top of the Giant as Silverman awakes, but only gets one.
02:20:57
Speaker
Interesting, but you can see Paige grabbing the Giant's arm to put it into position for being shoved off. I wonder if Paige was improvising to get shoved off particularly heavy or if Giant just forgot a spot there. Um, I can go either way and that would be probably the former, but yeah.
02:21:11
Speaker
Paige nails Giant with a great diving clothesline and shoulder block off the top turnbuckle, but Giant grabs him by the throat on a third dive. Giant sets Paige on the top rope and tries a choke slam, but Paige flips over him to turn it into the diamond cutter in midair for the three count and the win. Awesome ending spot there.
02:21:31
Speaker
Lots of people doing the Diamond Cutter sign with Paige as he celebrates. A recovered Heart threatens to reenter with the chair, but Paige turns his way and Heart backs off, telling Paige to come for him instead. Giant wakes up and drags himself to his feet. Paige keeps an eye on both of them, and goes for Heart when Heart thinks he's not paying attention, and Heart finally backs off. Thoughts on this one?
02:21:53
Speaker
So it's an interesting one for me because the story, which as we know, DDP, like, particularly laid out and probably like a binder full of, yes, of notes and drawings and descriptions is very strong. It's a really good story of DDP literally and figuratively fighting upwards to get his victory.
02:22:12
Speaker
All his stuff that wouldn't work on a smaller opponent is just not enough to take out the Giant. He can take these big blows and any move he does to counter is almost twice as strong as anyone else's move to counter out of it. Yeah. Everything he has to do, he has to do harder and he has to do better. They build the diamond cutter nicely throughout the match as well. There's a lot of really good spots and obviously builds up to the ending really well. I'm a little confused as to how Giant no-sell kicks in the balls though.
02:22:42
Speaker
It's part of the build-up to the finish. God, I don't remember even seeing that. So he catches D.P. on the third jump. D.P. kicked from the balls and he fully no-sells it and puts him on the top rope. Maybe it was supposed to be the gut or something instead. I don't know, but it's very few that he no-sells that. I didn't even notice it. Well, they make a point of it didn't phase him or it wasn't enough. Maybe he knows the iron stance from that one comfortable move. Invincible armor, yes. Yeah, invincible armor, yeah. That's the one. You don't forget moves like that.
02:23:12
Speaker
Iron skirt.
02:23:16
Speaker
So all of that's really good. I think my problem with the match as a whole is that at this point, the giant just can't really keep pace for that. There's a lot of points where giant stops and poses in that second bear hug. He clearly is sort of leaning in. You could see him definitely catching his breath. This is kind of a shame because everything's particularly well when he does the big moments, like the choke breaker. Yeah.
02:23:47
Speaker
and throwing him around, all that's really good, but he can't quite do anything as fast, clearly as fast as Paige would be able to keep the match going. But actually seeing his pace with Henig. If this was 1997 Giant, this physically,
02:24:03
Speaker
The match would be, I don't know, 40% faster with less pauses. Everything else being the same would be really, really good. For me, it's good. It definitely, it's okay to DP showing him fighting from beneath, fighting through the pain, coming creative finishes and hitting a big moment to impact the match really well. I can sort of get past the interference because it didn't really affect things that much. Again, it's undone. Exactly. Yeah. But for me, it's just a case where.
02:24:33
Speaker
It's not to its fullest effect because Giant just doesn't have the physical ability to do the match as fast as clearly as DDP wrote the match out. They cover part of it. It's not like it's really fast DDP and then super slow Giant. There's just enough pauses there because he clearly has to catch his breath and maybe has to remember how how much stuff paged right up for the match that throws the pacing off for me. It's good. It's just it's not what it absolutely could be because of that.
02:25:03
Speaker
He does give us chunky guy muscle pose though, which was wonderful. It's one of the few pauses to catch his breath bits I have no problem with.
02:25:11
Speaker
Very big surprise ending for me. I was expecting the giant to pull through at the end. I think there was some title movement from there. I thought there was points where DDP would come out ahead and there's points where the giant would. I think they did have a lot better chemistry than some of the other matches for sure. I didn't take note of him taking points to rest and everything, but I just thought that Diamond Dallas Page was just that much faster.
02:25:42
Speaker
There's some of that too, but you can see it on the second bear hug. He's leaned in, he's napping on deep. He showed up for a moment or two. I kind of blank on those things. When the bear hug shows up, I kind of just go to a little happy place and then two or three other moves later, I'm like, okay, good. We're back in play.
02:26:03
Speaker
The most memorable point is at the very end, just the look on DDP's face after like converting the Choke Slam into Diamond Cutter. Yes. It was enough for me to be happy with the outcome. Even though I really kind of just wanted to see Giant win this one. Usually he's just gonna cannon fodder.
02:26:24
Speaker
Yeah. What did you think of the transition into the diamond cutter there? You know, honestly, I thought I didn't even really like notice it. I had to go back a couple seconds just to make sure that it was that. But it looked like, you know, they both fell to the mat and I guess DDP fell the right way. It's a good example of using a bigger opponent's weight against him.
02:26:49
Speaker
Yeah, this is what DDP became very famous for, is the sheer variety of ways that he can turn things into the Diamond Cutter over the course of his career. Whatever finisher or big move my opponent has, I will find a way to make that turn into the Diamond Cutter at some point during my feud against them. It's always exciting to see that happen.
02:27:14
Speaker
And obviously a certain young upstart coming a few years from now would take that into quite a while as well. Yes. Yeah. Randy Orton has very much inherited that gimmick with the Archio out of nowhere thing. Yeah. It's a fascinating element of Paige's character that it's one of the reasons I really like Diamond Dallas Paige. Oh, sure. For me, this was very, very good. I'd been fading really badly on this show, but it woke me up.
02:27:39
Speaker
It has a slow pace, but a ton of drama. Giant takes his time decimating Paige, who after an initial flurry just can't get anything solid going, but just won't die. Giant looks awesome and powerful as he makes full use of his size to utterly dominate Paige, but Paige gets to look great in just flat out showing fighting spirit. Yeah, absolutely.
02:28:03
Speaker
The whole match is built around Paige just trying to live long enough to find an opening for the Diamond Cutter, probably the single most powerful move in WCW right now, and it had me on the edge of my seat. Little slowdown in the middle for some bear hugs, but they keep those relatively short. The rest of this match was Paige making Giant look like the biggest and most powerful ever, and expertly using that to get the crowd's sympathy.
02:28:28
Speaker
I loved this match. And at this point in the show, when things have been getting quite dull, this was exactly what I needed. A well-booked match with a ton of drama and a strong storyline performed by two excellent wrestlers with the full grasp of their characters and the tale that they want to tell.
02:28:44
Speaker
I definitely get your point on it that this could be even better. And I agree. Yeah. I mean, if we had earlier giant unquestionably, this, this could be better. It's by no means a bad match. But just for me, it's a good or even great match all the same. And at this point in the show, especially, oh my gosh, was I thankful for it. No, absolutely. Yeah. Same thing reaction. I was like, Oh, okay. Yeah. Good again. It's like, Oh, yay. Something I can be interested in.
02:29:13
Speaker
Biggest thing to address, no actionable pun intended, the giant. What happens with him in W.C.W.? Well, he leaves W.C.W. He would show up at W.V.F.'s St. Valentine's Day Massacre in February as the surprise weapon for the took man, both the story and company wise. So this is a nice match for him to have a big moment and then basically leave. If this is a swan song match for you in a company, you got to be pretty proud of it.
02:29:42
Speaker
I don't know if it's literally his last match, but it's his last real big match. Yeah. So yeah. They never really truly get back to the DDP or his Red Heart story, at least on pay-per-view. It's kind of a shame. Yeah. Because this is like him beating Giant to get to him, but then... Right, yeah. What actually happens is on a Nitro a bit later, Red Heart loses the title to Roddy Piper.
02:30:25
Speaker
Tony says we're on the threshold of the biggest world title match ever.
02:30:31
Speaker
Look, it's a big match, but again, this is really bigger than last year? Or bigger than the Flare Dusty match for the title in a million dollars? Or Flare Vader with Flare's career on the line against the title?
02:30:46
Speaker
Well, even if you're accepting the condition they put on at some point, which is the biggest world title match this year, you still have the famous, famous match, the Georgia Dome, with Goldberg unseating then champion Hulk Hogan. Yes. While still US champion, by the way. People will forget that. Yeah. It's the second biggest brand they ever got in the show. Yes. That was in June. Yeah, it's just strange.
02:31:10
Speaker
And Goldberg's streak is always on the line. Correct. It was on the line when he won the title the first time, yeah. Yeah, it was on the line when he had a match against DDP for the title of Halloween Havoc. Yes. I don't get that line. We get the weird Not in Memoriam video package again, and then it's time for the main event.
Nash vs. Goldberg: No DQ Match
02:31:30
Speaker
So our final match, thank goodness, is Kevin Nash versus Goldberg in a no disqualification match for Goldberg's WCW slash NWO World Heavyweight Championship. Referee for this match is Mickey J.
02:31:44
Speaker
So as they've ended up through confusing video packages and commentary throughout the show... Goldberg and Kevin Ash died, went to heaven, and came back to fight for the title. Correct. They did good enough to get a second chance on Earth and then fighting for the title. No, the big story throughout 1998 is the two factions, both one in control and one in power.
02:32:07
Speaker
And of course, the problem is that the world title is held by Goldberg, who was undefeated. Yes. That leads to World War III. Arguably the weirdest, most complicated match that you've ever booked in Davis W, which I'll look forward to that when we do the series on that. I am not looking forward to writing the match recaps.
02:32:25
Speaker
Kevin Nash wins the World War 3 match, the last one they do, thank God, and gets his shot to, once again, gain control, gain powers, lead the individual Wolfpack in this case, by feeding Goldberg. Michael Buffer kind of oddly described this as a mandatory match, which I guess is because of the World War 3 thing, probably, but still, if a match is on the card, isn't it always mandatory?
02:32:52
Speaker
Though I guess last year kind of proved that wasn't the case several times. Yeah. Well, Kevin Nash's match was definitely mandatory before he just didn't show up. Nevermind. Point retracted. Buffer seems to take special joy in doing a particularly elongated, are you re-ready tonight? I'm glad he's having fun. Nash is out first. End up your Wolfpack theme count three.
02:33:18
Speaker
Weird line in Nash's intro from Buffer, although he is a native of Detroit, Michigan, his accomplishments and glory for professional wrestling make him a citizen of the world. What?
02:33:37
Speaker
they have a diplomatic community or what were they trying to say? Yeah, I don't know what the heck. I was more stuck on him being listed as a founding father of the NWAO. Yeah. Which is accurate, but it's a weird way of saying it. It's probably because they're in Washington. Yeah.
02:33:52
Speaker
Nash signals that he wants the belt. Obviously. We get the full Goldberg entrance this year, with him walking all the way from his locker room, flanked by security, signing an autograph for a kid, and finally arriving onstage. He takes it a little close to the Starrcade symbol and nearly bonks his head, but makes up for it with his awesome stand in the midst of his spray of pyro. It always looks cool.
02:34:14
Speaker
Buffer says that he's defeated 174 consecutive opponents without a loss. The rest of the show, they've been saying 173. Maybe, maybe one of the 173 wins was against two guys? I don't know. One of them was especially heavy, so. Okay. Was it roadblock? Yeah, probably. Buffer calls the world title, the WCW slash NWO world title. That's why I've got it that way in the intro. I didn't realize that was ever a thing, but I guess that's the branding this year overall.
02:34:43
Speaker
So it was like they spray paint half the individual on there? That would be hilarious. Goldberg hands the belt to the ref and Nash takes it for a moment to try it on and smiles tauntingly at Goldberg. But his expression turns very serious as the bell rings, which Tony points out. The arena looks like it's in the midst of a deep fog with all the lingering smoke from all the pyro. It's a scary match. It's not Halloween havoc, come on.
02:35:11
Speaker
Dueling poses to start. Nash gets cheers and booing, and Goldberg just gets solid cheers. Nash acknowledges the disparity with a nod to Goldberg. They test each other's power to start, locking up and wrestling around the ring. Goldberg proves the stronger by easily lifting the taller Nash for a backdrop to escape a side headlock, and Nash rolls out of the ring. We get a quiet Goldberg sucks champ from Nash fans, and a much louder Nash sucks from the Goldberg fans.
02:35:39
Speaker
Back in, Nash hits a knee strike to take control and lands punches, knees, elbows, and forearms, but when he tries a boot choke, Goldberg takes him down and batters him with punches and his own choking. That escalated quickly. Surprising submission section as Nash tries a pretty good cross arm breaker, but Goldberg slips free and puts on an ankle lock.
02:36:00
Speaker
Nash gets the ropes and Goldberg breaks as Heenan points out that Nash's height allows him to pretty much reach the ropes from anywhere but dead center of the ring. Not sure why that matters so much in an ODQ match, but good point anyway. Yeah, there's a thing where rough breaks still happen, rough breaks and all that. Yeah. It makes no sense.
02:36:18
Speaker
Goldberg takes over with Quick Striking, a monstrous punch knocks Nash down, but Nash pulls Goldberg into the second turnbuckle and stands on his neck, but breaks out a 4 count from Jay. Again, this is no DQ, so why? He's just very polite. Yeah. I guess he is a face, so, you know, you might not actively break all the rules even in a no DQ thing, I don't know.
02:36:41
Speaker
Sure. Goldberg dodges a big boot and hits the spear, but when Goldberg drags a dazed Nash to his feet for the jackhammer, Nash proves me wrong on the rule-breaking thing by punching him in the crotch. Goldberg expertly sells his balls. Weird thing to say, but that just looked really legit.
02:37:00
Speaker
Nash gets two counts off a side slam, a nice elbow drop, and a rope drop. Goldberg fights back, but a Nash clothesline gets another two. Goldberg's spinning neckbreaker leads to a sideways suplex for two and three quarters. Goldberg hefts Nash on his shoulder, carries him one-handed, and slams him for two and nine-tenths. Goldberg is just amazingly strong. Yeah. Shocking flying spinning dropkick by Goldberg, but Disco Inferno runs in and gets killed dead by the spear.
02:37:31
Speaker
Bam Bam Bigelow runs in, but gets sent out of the ring by a Goldberg clothesline. Goldberg gets ready to spear Nash again, but while Nash is struggling to his feet, and Ref. Jay is watching the security staff try to deal with Bigelow, Scott Hall, dressed as security, climbs on the apron and zaps Goldberg with a taser. Hall blends in with security to retreat, and an unaware Nash hits the Jackknife Power Bomb on a stunned Goldberg for the three count and the win.
02:37:58
Speaker
NWO Wolfpack theme count? Four. Nash gets the title and breaks the streak, and the crowd seems split on this. Nash sees Goldberg still down and struggling with the after-effects of the Taser, and gets an uncertain, confused look on his face. Thoughts on this one? For me, it's a pretty simple match. Kevin Nash being conniving and using experience, and Goldberg is just ridiculously strong. Yes.
02:38:25
Speaker
The commentary does play that really well. They talk about how he pushes the way out of the corner stroke, for instance. Yeah, that's something they've never seen happen to Nash before. Yes. So there's a lot of that going on, which is really good. Likewise, Goldberg has a weird moment where he'll suddenly do a spinning neckbreaker or that spinning kick you talked about. Yeah. Which is, I thought it was actually done slightly better than Jericho's weird jumping back elbow, pin kick thing, his match. Just weird, the two people doing like that, you'd think it'd be Jericho 100%, but in this case, no.
02:38:55
Speaker
I appreciate that Nash gave a bit more than I was actually expecting him to, especially coming off of the Thashers match where I just assume it would be really badly booked and yeah, Goldberg squashed, but no, yeah. Nash really does let him look strong and he escapes pushing with the ropes and it's clear that he's not gonna outpower Goldberg. He's just going to find that opportunity to take it and get advantage.
02:39:19
Speaker
The average is interesting because it's both not at all important to the match and very important to the match. It's an ODQ situation. I don't think either person who interferes directly ever actually hits Goldberg or Nash, at least in a notable way. So it's not like they had an ODQ. They could have run in and just he spears them right away and throws them out and tamed with.
02:39:41
Speaker
Bam Bam Bigelow. But then it's very important because Kevin Nash actually looking at their way when Scott Hall comes in, but also the ref's looking away too. And if the ref saw it, he'd be like, oh, I should do nothing. Yeah. The ref doesn't hear it? Yeah, you wouldn't hear a taser. I mean, come on, it doesn't make any loud noises or anything like that. Yeah, I know. Right? Tasers aren't electric. They're psychic. And you only hear them in your mind. OK.
02:40:12
Speaker
Yeah, I can't explain it either, man. But, I mean, yeah, it's no DQ basically just kind of for that ending spot, except that the ref is looking away the entire time anyway, so why does it matter that it was no DQ? I was thinking of that tag match from a six-star game. Oh, right. The Jayhawks versus the Russian team? Yes. Yeah, the finish is them hitting with the chain while the ref's back is turned, as if that mattered. Yeah. Yeah.
02:40:37
Speaker
But yeah, it's a decent enough match. It's nice back and forth realistically. It's just a shame that they go the direction they do to have that convoluted screen finish to it.
02:40:49
Speaker
awesome match, a lot of great big moves, a lot of energy. I wish they could impart some of that energy, that big heavy hitting style to the giant in the previous match. Not that it was a bad match in any way. I'm just saying like, you know, this was a match that kind of started out as like an eight and stayed there all the way. A lot of chaos with the DQ, the no DQ.
02:41:13
Speaker
I like that they still count things out and try to get them to break a hold, not necessarily because you can't tap out or whatever. I guess you can, but it kind of breaks the monotony. If you're just holding a hold the whole entire... Yeah. It's to give you a reason for them not just continually choking the guy. Right.
02:41:34
Speaker
And I'm glad that they do that. And that may be the reason why they still try to hide the overt use of chains or tasers or whatever, just so that they can still have that underhanded element, even though it's not necessary. But I mean, how many rep bumps did we have on this show? Yeah. And then... Why don't they give them armor? I don't know. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah.
02:41:57
Speaker
No, I enjoyed a lot of crazy power moves in this. People weren't being thrown over ropes, but both Nash and Goldberg had things where they're like, well, this could be the pen, you know, like at any point. Yeah, sure. You know, there wasn't anything that just seemed half-hazard. I couldn't picture any missed spots, to be perfectly honest. I think it was the smoke helping, but... Oh, really?
02:42:18
Speaker
Still amazed he's not got some sort of burns on him from all that. Yeah. I was surprised to see Hall showing up. I don't know why, but... He with all the foreshadowing from earlier? Yeah, I saw him show up once, you know, I thought that would be it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's not the best ending. It looked like Goldberg was, like, still in the game after the stun, but I guess not. Yeah. Because he's kicking and jumping around.
02:42:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think he's just kind of trying to show like spasming from the... Yeah, what'd he do at the end? He rolls out of the ring and just move around. Yeah. Yeah, that's like, actually, my power bomb's not that good. Yeah. Yeah. But it didn't even look like a normal power bomb. It just kind of like just dropped him. That's the Jackknife. Yeah, this one did look a little looser than normal. But normally, like, he gets him up and then kind of clearly imparts forward momentum and then releases. Yeah. Do you think he was legitimately tased? Or is it just a...
02:43:17
Speaker
and I highly doubt that he was dead. Just not dedicated. Mainly because Scott Hall remained alive after the show, and I'm pretty sure if a legit taser hit Goldberg, the person doing it would be dead. Fair enough. You would think after all those months of walking through the pyro and the sparks, it's going to be so toughened that nothing would get through. It just has elemental resistance at this point. No, it's your nervous system, man. He's 100% grounded against all electricity. Yeah, sure.
02:43:47
Speaker
There's just a cable attached to him. He goes to one of the ring posts.
02:43:55
Speaker
For my part, I have to take the match and the ending a little separately here. Okay. The match felt like an epic main event. I am totally with you on that run. Great semi-dueling crowd reactions. Big power moves from both guys. Good feeling of drama. A lot of close calls. Not a very fast pace, but everything has a feeling of impact. And there's always a sense that things are moving, just that these are big guys and they're about power, not high speeds.
02:44:23
Speaker
Although Goldberg's acceleration on the spear might beg to differ. Nash makes Goldberg look really, really good for most of the match. That's true, yeah. Very surprising. Yeah. Nash is a big guy, but Goldberg just knocks him flat or tosses him around with ease, which looks amazing. They never lose the feel of an even fight, though. Honestly, for most of this match, I found myself thinking, this is what the 1997 main event should have felt like.
02:44:50
Speaker
This had the epic feel and the good back and forth to it. Yeah. So even though I might have opposed Tony's comments earlier in the show on biggest match ever or whatever, it definitely in the actual match felt like a bigger match than last year. Yeah. Sure. The ending, I don't know. It feels like maybe a bit of wasted potential. You could have used the end of Goldberg's streak as a way to make a new star. Nash getting it.
02:45:18
Speaker
It's alright, it's just nothing special. I actually like that it's a cheap finish in this case. It doesn't feel like Goldberg should be going down even to the Jackknife Power Bomb alone. It feels like it has to be something special to take him out. Either a new really awesome finisher or some kind of shenanigans. Yeah.
02:45:38
Speaker
There's interesting story possibilities coming out of this, especially with Nash being unaware of what happened. So whether this is good or bad depends less on the loss itself, I think, and more on what's done with it going forward. A good or even great big man power match with a possibly okay ending?
02:45:57
Speaker
fair or not, there's a certain stigma attached to how this match plays out. Because behind the scenes, based on his experience and how well things he had done in the past, Nash is given a certain leeway in booking at this point. And lo and behold, his great idea is to give himself the streak-breaking victory. So whether it's earned or not,
02:46:19
Speaker
There's always that caveat because he, at least in part, gets to decide that happens. Yeah. As opposed to Bischoff and Matt going, you're so great, you got to break the streak. It's pointing at himself going, you're so great, you need to break the streak. And I can see that. I just feel like.
02:46:34
Speaker
looking just at the show itself and what's on the show. It's not the way that I would have chosen to break the streak, but it's not a disastrous way to break the streak. No, sure. There's absolutely things you could do with this. Sure. Whether they do or not is another question. Yes. Why do they build up people to not have them do what you expect them to do? Yeah.
02:47:03
Speaker
Coming off of this match, Goldberg obviously has a couple of feuds going on. One, he's got to get rid of Scott Hall, which is the set to do at the next show. It's sold out. And there's the lingering Ben Bigelow keeps attacking him story, which could resolve the month after that.
02:47:20
Speaker
Scott Hall would claim that there was no connection between him and Kevin Nash as for interference. That was just his own action he chose to do. Nash would be upset by the idea that people thought he had some sort of plan. He actually got unaware, I don't know how this happened. In fact, on the next lecture, he's mad at Disco Inferno for interfering in the match and wants to punish him for putting a dark cloud over the match.
02:47:45
Speaker
He also, on that show, to sort of clear the year and prove that he really, truly beat Goldberg, he announces that he will put the title in line on the January 4th night show. He's gonna defeat Goldberg once and for all, no questions asked. It feels like I've heard those exact words before, in the prior year, though for something that was not directly booked. That is true.
Goldberg's Arrest and Finger Poke of Doom
02:48:07
Speaker
However, on the next night show, as part of the build-up, a very strange U-turn occurs.
02:48:12
Speaker
While backstage, Goldberg is accused of, quote, aggressive stalking. That was the rewrite they gave because the original thing he said no to. He's aggressively stalking Miss Elizabeth, who, by the way, is not on the show anywhere. Yeah. But he's super important on the next show to go with that. So he is arrested on these charges and taken to the police station, which they make sure to point out is across the street.
02:48:37
Speaker
Like literally is an arena on one side, two lane, three lane road PlayStation. Now the big main event is off. So what are they going to do? I mean, Goldberg's being arrested and processed. Fortunately, a hero arrives. The now unretired Hulk Hogan.
02:48:56
Speaker
He claims that he's going to help the audience and he will take over his place and give them the big match they deserve. So now it's Nash versus, oh man, I was hoping Nash would just get arrested and they could wrestle inside the police station. That could work. I can see a prison fight between the two. It's probably the only time in the movie where that happens. Close couple of times.
02:49:22
Speaker
About 20 to 30 minutes before the main event is set to occur, all the charges are dropped, Miss Elizabeth, basically raising perjury for making false claims, backs off the claims, and now Goldberg is set free. So now he's gonna go across the street and take his title match, which he doesn't do. He's still not there in time with the main event. So we have the big epic main event, the biggest title match ever, immediately following the biggest title match ever, of course. Hogan and Nash square off.
02:49:51
Speaker
Hulk Hogan extends his finger, touches Kevin Nash, takes a massive back bump, and is pinned for one, two, three. Kevin Nash stands up and laughs, and he is joined in the ring by other wrestlers, including Lex Luger and Scott Steiner in both Bagwell. The new N.W.O. was formed, the N.W.O. elite.
02:50:17
Speaker
which in their mind is the strongest part of the black and white and wolf pack. And for some reason disco inferno. He's just there. They needed someone to kick. Yeah. So that's where that story was going. That is the finger poke of doom. Now my video hasn't frozen. I'm just... I'm just hanging out here.
02:50:41
Speaker
Yeah, I figured that. No, I get that reaction. I get that reaction. Yeah. I feel like my hairline is receding, but my hair is falling out. This makes no. Yep. Yeah. If there's one angle that people point to and say this killed the company, chances are very good. It's going to be the finger poke of doom. Yep. The dumb mock.
02:51:12
Speaker
if the idea was Hogan legitimately has learned Dim Mach and has killed Kevin Nash with it in the center of the ring and pinned him to win the world title, you could at least go somewhere with that. But this is, no, Nash fights Goldberg, breaks the streak, and then we don't go anywhere with that because Hogan comes in and Nash just turns out to have been allied with him
02:51:41
Speaker
for an unspecified period of time and intentionally loses to him so Hogan can gain the title again. And we just have formed the NWO again after a year of them battling back and forth because they hated each other now. Basically, 1998 is pointless, is what that says. I think Hall had a whole speech about that.
02:52:01
Speaker
Yeah. He said 1999 was going to be better. Hall is a liar. That's going to be his year, and he is part of the individual elite. And I know we haven't seen most 1998 shows, but it's going to kind of cast a pall over all of the 1998 shows for me, because I'll know all this stuff between NWO Hollywood and NWO Wolfpack, the resolution for that is
02:52:24
Speaker
either they were never fighting or they just kind of stopped fighting and decided to be friends again. They decided they love Hogan so much that he had to be the world champion again. Yeah. The guy that they decided they didn't like and that's the entire reason the group broke apart is that Hogan couldn't defend the world title. Their resolution to that is Hogan comes back in and we're going to let him have him defend the world title again.
02:52:49
Speaker
Nash just, he's not even like fighting him, losing to him, and being like, oh my gosh, you've proven that you're a better wrestler, so okay. He just goes down like he was shot when Hogan pokes him in the chest, revealing that this entire thing is a big lie. Picture the bump that he takes from the spear in this match. It's the same bump he takes. It's that sudden sharp back bump. Poke, slims it backwards.
02:53:17
Speaker
There are two big angles in 1998. The N.W.O. Hollywood versus N.W.O. Wolfpack and the Goldberg streak. And in one moment, in the Figurebook of Doom, they have killed both those angles.
02:53:30
Speaker
Yeah. Because you've removed all the potential cool storyline possibilities you could have from the end of this match that would turn it from a, eh, I'm not sure why you went that way too. Oh, that was cool. And you've removed the entire NWO versus NWO angle. Yeah. And given neither of them a satisfactory conclusion. Well, and the biggest thing is that this shows that WW when pressed will default to the norm. Yeah. Which for them, the norm is NWO. Yeah.
02:54:00
Speaker
I mean, they were clearly trying to break away from that a little by having a face version, seeing if they could keep them both going. They were clearly weakening the heal version, the black and white. Hogan leaves, and you know, just got standard charge, and it's not as the same level. The point where there's a jokingly, the B team of people like Norden and Adams. Yeah. They're in the NVO, but it's not like, oh, Hall and Nash are here. It's, oh yeah, those guys are also here. But yeah, anytime they can't think of anything to do, they just go back to NVO.
02:54:30
Speaker
Yep. That's what you get. Any other thoughts on that? I wish I didn't know it. Yeah, I know it's, it's like the dusty thing where he wins the title and then like, you know, the next day it's taken away from him. Yeah. This could be a decent moment, but it's entirely spoiled.
02:54:53
Speaker
So WBF is still trying to save money. They're doing, alternately, taped shows and live shows. So every other one is taped for live.
WCW's Attempt to Spoil WWF Title Win
02:55:02
Speaker
And so they taped a show where the main event is Mick Foley winning the world title off of The Rock, but as the match is approaching back in during like the direct buildup, like the bringing out and everything, Tony Schiavone is told directly, if there's your piece by Bischoff clearly, downplay this, give away the results of what's going to happen so no one will switch. On the WWF show. The way the WWF results.
02:55:28
Speaker
He's given a line, which basically he says, um, some of the lines of Mick Foley, he used to wrestle here as Cactus Jack wins their world title in night. Ha. That'll put butts in the seats. At which point, depending on where you read it, it's in between three to 600,000 people change channel upon hearing. Ooh, really? Click. Cause they like Mick Foley and would like to see him win the world title. Correct. Yeah. So reverse marketing there. Yeah. Ouch.
02:55:57
Speaker
It's like a .2 in the rating spike or something. Some exact number that's just noticeable when you're fighting for like 3.4 and 3.6 and 3.7. Reminds me of a whole like, you know, whenever there's like a new book release or something and someone reads the last chapter or whatever and puts up like a billion memes giving away the ending. Just in this case, it made you actually go and buy the book. I did. I bought the book because of it.
02:56:27
Speaker
That whole thing is just them being petty and it extremely backfires. Kind of deserve it, actually. Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. We get a quick replay of the Tasers app, Hall's Escape, the Power Bomb, and Nash raising the title in the air. And Starrcade 98 is
Starrcade 98: A Strong Start and Meandering End
02:56:47
Speaker
done. That was sudden. Yeah. So, overall thoughts on Starrcade 98.
02:56:55
Speaker
is they show with a very strong opening section, two interconnected matches that are very good, a third match that is very surprisingly good. My own issues with how much dancing and crowd interaction there is aside, the match level is really good. Then it sort of slowly meanders downwards.
02:57:14
Speaker
None of the matches are terrible, it's just they're not really important or they're just okay. Nothing is matching up to what we just saw. And plus they constantly stop every other match for three video packages or promos. So it's just them dragging their feet to get to feature length. It's like movies when they run the credits for like 15 minutes and you're like, wait, this movie's only 80 minutes long? Oh, well that's why. But it's in the middle of the show. Yeah.
02:57:43
Speaker
It picks up again, really strong, that's surprising with DDP, much like we ran into a little with 97, him and Henig do a really good job with that. And then they have a really strong win event with a kind of dubious, over complicated mess of a finish, but makes you curious to see where it's going to go.
02:58:00
Speaker
And of course, we know where it goes and it's terrible. Yeah. One takeaway, I think, for the show as a whole is that the Prince Iachea North Poly match was a match I had very little interest in. I was like, oh, it's probably okay. But, but surprisingly good. And then the flip side is I see Chris Jericho and Conan in a match and now it's because I hoped. Yeah, that is interesting.
02:58:22
Speaker
You get a show with a great start. Not even a great start, a fantastic start. Absolutely. The Cruiserweight and Impromptu match kind of, you know, you got to see four great athletes. You know, it was almost like a tag team thing because they were all working against each other or with each other at points. Yeah. You have a great beginning and then you have filler and way too many promos. Honestly, if they took out the promos, I think a lot of it would have been a little bit better.
02:58:51
Speaker
And I hate to think that people are in the stadium waiting for this, suffering through it too. And then you have promos built up after promos, but I'm going to get off of that word.
02:59:06
Speaker
And then you have a couple little highlights, you get some good crowd interactions, you have a couple dances and then you have two good matches at the end. It has a great beginning and then a match at the very end that is
02:59:23
Speaker
totally worth the caliber of what Starrcade's supposed to be. That's just so. And then they WCW it. Yep. No, yeah, yeah, I totally see what you're getting out of there. But no, it really is like, I still had a smile at the flare match. So, you know, I don't know. It was definitely worth a watch, but save yourself some time. Go to the beginning, go to the end.
02:59:50
Speaker
And you can watch the last two and watch the first two. And stuff in between can get smushed around. Yep.
02:59:56
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard to wrap my head around my thoughts on this show. It has a really strong start with a crazy three-way match followed by a couple very good singles matches. Then it kind of trails off into this meandering, directionless blob for quite a while filled with video packages, promos, and matches that aren't so much outright bad as just underwhelming and not really interesting. And then it pops right back up for the last couple matches and delivers two good contests with good storylines before a show ending that feels, I don't know, okay?
03:00:26
Speaker
Obviously looking back at it knowing where it leads, it ends up feeling pretty bad, but taking just this show, it feels acceptable but not the big bombastic finish the night seemed to need. And then the show just stops. It feels like we need something to really wrap it up, but we just kind of unceremoniously sign off. I just kind of thought, wait, that's it? There are so many promos and videos.
03:00:54
Speaker
The promos are mostly fine taken individually. Some are even good, but having all of them and the video packages just felt like far too much on one show. I started thinking back to Cowboys explaining bunkhouse stampedes again. Why does this always happen to show after I say WCW needs more promos? Another lesson in being careful what you wish for, I guess.
03:01:16
Speaker
It just really, really slows down the middle of the show, and it feels like a contributing factor in why some of the matches come off underwhelming. Matches 4 through 7 are all quite short, none of them longer than 9 minutes. Cut some of the promos or videos and give each of those matches a little more time to work with, and I think some of them could have upped their game. It really contributes to the middle of the show feeling like kind of a slog.
03:01:40
Speaker
I still miss the Tony Dusty Hienan announced team as there's a lot more energy to it, but Tony, Tine and Hienan did have some good exchanges, and generally did a good job of talking up the matches and their storylines where they could, with the exception of the first quarter to half of the Smiley Iakea match that they basically ignored. Tine and Tony both miss a few of Hienan's joke setups too, it doesn't feel totally smooth.
03:02:05
Speaker
The show felt like it had a big atmosphere. It felt important. But the matches didn't always seem to hold up to that. We see some signs of the NWO Factional feud between Hollywood and Wolfpack that's been going on, but there's no matches based around that, which feels strange. Instead, we got a tag match with NWO Hollywood versus Finlay and Jerry Flynn.
03:02:25
Speaker
What about, say, Luger and Konam vs. Scott Steiner and Bagwell, which we get signs of backstage but don't actually get? And as much as I like Smiley vs. Iakea, it felt like just a match for matches' sake.
03:02:37
Speaker
It doesn't help that seven of the nine matches involve some kind of outside interference, whether it be managers, accompanying wrestlers, or outright run-ins. And of the two that don't, Smiley vs. Iakea and Jericho vs. Conan, Jericho vs. Conan still teases a cheap finish before averting it, and based on that backstage segment before the match, should probably have featured interference.
03:02:59
Speaker
It's just the era we're in at this point, I know, and it doesn't ruin the matches, but it's just so repetitive with it happening in almost every match. And of the three big things the show builds towards, Player vs. Bischoff, DDP vs. The Giant, and Nash vs. Goldberg, only DDP vs. The Giant has what feels like a really satisfying ending.
03:03:21
Speaker
This can be a decent show. It's just a show with a big, inexplicable valley in the middle of it, and a few kind of perplexing moments and match finishes. It's fine to watch, but probably not straight through. Definitely fast-forward through all the video packages at least. It's weird because so much of the show feels important, like especially the ending, what they build up as important everything is. But getting to there in the middle, like, it could be a random nitro or a thunder.
03:03:51
Speaker
Yeah. Knowing that everyone was potentially in attendance, you wonder why they chose the people they chose. Fair. Yeah, it's fair, yeah. If there's this big rivalry, why isn't Hogan even mentioned in the whole thing? He's running for president at the moment. Still, there wasn't a promo or anything in there. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it is very strange. Hogan being held off as a big surprise for a great story they have coming up. Yeah, not worth it. No, not at all.
03:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's just a strange show and it's one of those ones that's really hard to wrap your head around exactly how you feel about it. Because like you said, John, it has a great opening and pretty good to great ending. But the middle is just like, what? There's so much just slowdown and... The best promo was like 12 seconds long with the giant. Yeah, exactly. Good beginnings, good endings, not so much in between.
03:04:50
Speaker
All right, Match of the Night and MVP. So Match of the Night, I'm a bit torn. They're going back and forth even while we're discussing it. For me, it comes down to either of the two opening matches, basically. I think for me, of the two, I have to pick the Eddie Guerrero Kidman match. I really like the story they built of falling up on the previous match.
03:05:12
Speaker
There is a lot of interference, but it's evened out really well, I think, because it goes both ways with Tovey and Ray there. And just how much I was impressed by what Eddie Guerrero could do in this situation, must be running the ropes with one shoe and all that. Yeah, yeah, that was pretty impressive. His heel work in the match to the story is really good.
03:05:34
Speaker
MVP was a little tricky for me because, again, my initial thought was just go straight to Eddie Guerrero, because he's so good, because that match is so great and everything else evolved. And plus he's crazy, we're dramatic, no business. Well, I can't pick him with VP though, because there's just too many issues in that middle promo between the matches. If he had nailed that promo 100%, he's MVP. He just ties both them up.
03:06:04
Speaker
So I, going away, I apparently just seemed to go, which is MVP for me is someone who's matched in quite good matches at night, but they did so well. I can't ignore what they did. So where's my sound? MVP for me is DDP. Okay. Cause he built a really good match. I just don't think giant could execute it as well as he wrote it. All right, John. Um,
03:06:32
Speaker
The first two matches were so good, though. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to go with the cruiserweight championship triangle match as my match of the night, because it had a lot of great bits in it. It had, like, oh, yeah, we should be teaming up against this other person. You know, it had some funny bits, too, and a lot of good work. And, you know, it led to the other match, so we'll go with that.
03:07:01
Speaker
Yeah, and for you it set the pace for how good the show could be. So yeah, it's an absolutely valid choice. Yeah, absolutely. And this will surprise you, but my MVP will probably be Goldberg, actually. Okay. Which I've always made fun of him when I was thinking this, but really,
03:07:23
Speaker
Nash did a good job of making him look good, and he was robbed this night, and this is not how I wanted to see him lose his streak, so honestly, I really felt for him. So, Goldberg. Your MVP is his consolation prize. I guess. He probably feels better now.
03:07:43
Speaker
I get that. I mean, it's a good performance. Together he and Nash put on something that feels really epic. They were in the clouds. No, I was surprised at how much I liked the last match. It did feel worthy of the last spot. The reason why that match did not get the match of the night is because of the ending. Sure.
03:08:07
Speaker
I'm really surprised I'm choosing Goldberg, but, uh, he did a great performance and, uh, and, and I don't like Kevin Nash because of how everything turns out now. So if I'd actually before I told her that you might've picked him, but now I would have thought about it. I would have considered it probably valid. Honestly, if you didn't tell me that, I probably would have picked that as the match of the night and then just shows Kidman to honor the first two. All right.
03:08:35
Speaker
The first two matches are exceptional, and I could easily see myself going with one of those, and I keep thinking that I might go back and do it different, but I'm going to stick with what I said in my notes and go with it, just because otherwise I'll question myself all night. I'm going to go with DDP versus the Giant. Much like last year, it was the purest emotional connection that I made with a match all night, though in this case at least it wasn't the only one.
03:09:04
Speaker
DDP was a terrific underdog hero and the giant was a great intimidating sadistic villain and it made for a great mix. Cap it all off with a great ending diamond cutter and it edges its way to the front. It's a near thing but that one just hit me just right and I think it's that lingering gratitude from it basically saving the show for me at that point too.
03:09:28
Speaker
Like going back to that Steamboat match that saved... Yeah, where you just had, thank you, Steamboat written as your notes. That's what I had, yeah. For my MVP, you and I were thinking along the same lines, John, I'm giving this to Billy Kidman for not one, but two excellent performances to kick off the show. Amazing work, especially considering how insane that first match was. The fact that he had anything left for the second, and he very much did, was incredible.
03:09:56
Speaker
Honorable mentions to Eddie Guerrero for a great heal performance and DDP for a terrific underdog battle, but Kidman really impressed me tonight and he's my MVP. And that wraps up our review of Starrcade 98. If you've enjoyed listening to us tonight, you can find us on Twitter or Facebook as Let's Go to the Ring. Links will be available in the episode description. Follow us for episode announcements and other show details, and share your own thoughts about the Starrcades as we go through.
03:10:25
Speaker
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03:10:49
Speaker
Join us next time for Starrcade 99, the battle to end the millennium. No, it isn't. It is, however, the Starrcade to end WCW streak of good pay-per-view numbers. Next year, we're back down to the old normal and sadly back up to the old number of matches, too. 13 matches, guys. That lucky number. The most since way back at Starrcade 90. Yeah, wow.
03:11:16
Speaker
You ready for one of those shows again? John's face says no. I think you just bit into a lemon. Yeah. Yep, hopefully there's less promos on that one, because 13 matches, again, promos, we may be here all night. Yeah. When they do the pay-per-view, do they tell them how long the show's gonna be? Yes, usually. I wonder if that has to do with the number of sales.
03:11:44
Speaker
This is Bob Moore for Alec Pridgen and John Mullins, signing off. Good night, everybody. Happy wrestling. And work on those sweet luchador moves.
03:12:13
Speaker
How do I say that? Flare rips Bischoff's shirt off.