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Lessons From Epicureanism (Episode 131)
838 Plays6 months ago
"The thought for today is one which I discovered in Epicurus; for I am wont to cross over even into the enemy's camp, – not as a deserter, but as a scout."
In this conversation, Caleb and Michael talk about lessons from Epicureanism. To do this, use Seneca’s quotations of Epicurus and other Epicureans as a source. The Epicurean tradition has a lot of wisdom about how to relate to wealth, master desire, and study philosophy.
(00:26) Introduction
(02:38) What Epicureanism Is
(07:54) The Enemy's Camp
(17:37) Philosophy Matters
(22:18) Urgency
(26:10) Money Money Money
(32:01) Desire
(38:06) Drugs
(40:05) Friendship
(49:24) Summarize
***
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Transcript
Introduction to Epicurean Philosophy
00:00:00
Speaker
But the pleasurable life, the Epicureans would say, is one that consists in really mastering desire, not satisfying desire. And that is probably as core of an Epicurean tenant as there is. Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Ontiveros. And I'm Michael Trombley.
Epicureanism vs Stoicism
00:00:26
Speaker
Today we're going to be talking about Epicureanism. The Epicureans were a rival school to the Stoics. They were an ancient life philosophy, ancient school that were competitors to the Stoics. So we've had past episodes about them by sort of an introductory episode, episode 10, about the philosophy and shared some of our thoughts, objections to it.
00:00:55
Speaker
And then we also have some interview episodes. Michael has a conversation with Catherine Wilson. That's episode 70. And then I have a conversation with Emily Austin. That's episode 34.
00:01:09
Speaker
But today what we're going to do is focus on what is of value from this school. And as an example of that, we're going to be talking about Seneca. Because if you've ever read Seneca's moral letters, one of the first things you'll notice is that he quotes Epicurus a lot.
00:01:35
Speaker
despite the fact that Epicurus is a rival philosopher, despite the fact that the Stoics have so many disagreements with the Epicureans. So he's sort of an existence proof of the fact that
00:01:51
Speaker
one can learn a lot from rival philosophies.
Stoics Learning from Epicureans
00:01:56
Speaker
And we'll be going through some of the places where he quotes under us by name. He also talks a little bit about Methadorus, another Epicurean, and see where that lines up with Stoicism and see what we can take away from those quotes. Yeah, sounds great. So before we were looking at Epicureanism,
00:02:18
Speaker
just on its own, just like what is it? How does it work? Now it's, well, if you're a stoic or anybody else looking to live better, I guess what can you take from it? And I've always loved Seneca's approach to this. I've always loved Seneca's engagement with other philosophies. So yeah, looking forward to it. Let's do it.
00:02:38
Speaker
So we'll start by saying a little bit about what Epicureanism is. If you want a deeper dive, of course, go to some of those other episodes I mentioned in the beginning and then talk about this question. Why does Seneca quote Epicurus so often to begin with? What's his approach there? Because he does give us details. He does answer that question.
00:03:00
Speaker
in his letters and then go through some of the key lessons that Seneca has pulled out some of these key quotes from Epicurus and see what can we learn from those both as you say as
00:03:16
Speaker
Stoics, people who are attracted to Stoicism in some way or another, or just generally when you're thinking about your philosophy of life, what it is to live well. There's a lot of overlap between the different schools, even when they're rivals, of course. So we'll be looking at some of those key lessons that I think can be applied broadly, especially at least when we're thinking about some of these ancient Greco-Roman philosophies of life.
00:03:45
Speaker
Cool, cool. So want to hop into what it is? Yeah, let's do it.
Epicurean Hedonism and Desire Mastery
00:03:50
Speaker
All right, so what is Epicureanism? Quick refresher. First, it's a hedonistic philosophy. It says that the best life is the pleasurable one. And of course, it's important to remember here that
00:04:07
Speaker
the hedonistic life for the Epicureans was achieved by living virtuously and when they're thinking about pleasure they focused not entirely but spent most of their attention on reducing
00:04:25
Speaker
pain, avoiding pain while taking advantage of sort of the essential pleasures, friendship, minimal meals, and so on. So what you get from the Epicureans is it begins with a sort of hedonistic foundation
00:04:45
Speaker
But then begins to look somewhat similar to some of these other virtue ethics where they say actually in order to live well one must master your desires for these
00:05:02
Speaker
fleeting pleasures that don't bring long lasting satisfaction and instead set your sight on a life of tranquility, a life where you avoid illusions, a life where you avoid pain.
00:05:20
Speaker
And that's achieved by mastering desires and experiencing some of these basic pleasures of life. So they're by no means what you might think of as a heatiness today if you were to use that term in a critical way, in a negative way. Instead, they're rather measured and moderate philosophers. Yeah, and you can think about this.
00:05:45
Speaker
Because the hedonistic label, that's just what you're measuring, or that's just what you're trying to maximize. And then that doesn't necessarily come, if you had never heard that term before, that doesn't necessarily come with a picture of the good life. It just says, that's what we're trying to maximize. What that looks like in practice is still undiscovered. And then the Epicureans provide a particular answer to that, as you said, which is one of the more moderate. And if that sounds a bit unintuitive, or it sounds like, well, they don't actually think pleasure is the good if they argue for a minimal theory.
00:06:14
Speaker
You can think of something like an addict is a really good example of the hedonistic pictures. Do you think of somebody who's a drug addict, somebody who's addicted to gambling, addicted to any sort of short-term spike in pleasure? Do you think that person has a pleasurable life?
00:06:31
Speaker
Do we look at those people and go, wow, that is the life that has the most pleasure? No, we don't, because it's one that has these short-term spikes and then these long valleys, probably the greatest gap, probably the greatest dissonance between high and bottom, but not the highest sustained heights. And so that's a good, I think that's like a quick example of the Epicurean argument and why they really are still hedonists, even though they argue for a kind of moderation.
00:06:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good example because they're sort of asking the question, what life feels the best to lead? And you can think about the life of an addict as having an immense amount of pleasure, but it also has an immense amount of suffering.
00:07:19
Speaker
So, whereas someone who's able to achieve a stable state of tranquility might not be experiencing pleasure in the sense of euphoria on a moment-to-moment basis, but they have a positive hum to their life or something of this sort, and they don't face those valleys that others may endure.
00:07:41
Speaker
like the Stoics able to endure what others might see as setbacks because they don't put as much of value into what so many people crave. Yeah, exactly.
Seneca's Exploration of Rival Philosophies
00:07:54
Speaker
So Seneca has one of his most well-known lines about Epicurus, as he's introducing one of his quotes from The Man is, the thought for today is one which I discovered in Epicurus, for I am wont to cross over even into the enemy's camp, not as a deserter, but as a scout.
00:08:20
Speaker
And that's the key slogan, not as a disorder, but as a scout that captures his approach. He is looking for truth and understands that, you know, there's information in the ways that others think. It can be reminders. It could be novel information, perhaps, but his approach is one of the
00:08:49
Speaker
Seeker, none of the dogmatists who is aiming to win an argument. Instead, he's trying to get a lay of the land, a lay of reality, and it's to the extent that he can. So I think that's an excellent slogan. Yasuo has another quote explaining why he goes to Epicurus so often.
00:09:14
Speaker
There is no reason why you should hold that these words belong to Epicurus alone. They are public property. I think we ought to do in philosophy as they are wanted to do in the Senate. When someone has made a motion of which I approve to a certain extent, I ask him to make his motion in two parts, and I vote for the part which I approve.
00:09:37
Speaker
So I am the more glad to repeat and distinguish words of Epicurus, in order that I may prove to those who have recourse to him through a bad motive, thinking that they will have in him a screen for their own vices, that they must live honorably, no matter what school they follow.
00:09:56
Speaker
So that's essentially expressing the same idea in the beginning. You know, these words are a matter of public property. But he also introduces this other idea of decoupling ideas. You can recognize that an opponent has true beliefs, even if that's coupled with some false beliefs, perhaps. And so many times we get in debates with people who he might disagree with.
00:10:23
Speaker
and see ourselves as aiming to fully defeat whatever they say. And of course, that bias might lead us to argue against claims, which, if they had come up in any other context, we would see are true. Because we have this sort of oppositional stance, we immediately see them as false. Yeah, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and it makes me think of
00:10:50
Speaker
And if you also think of like separating the art from the artists too, or I mean, Seneca doesn't think Epicurus is a bad person. He doesn't think he's like a tyrant or a terrible individual. He just disagrees with him philosophically. But it's kind of a good lesson for, I think a philosopher maybe done something that's morally dubious or has lived a life that you wouldn't admire wholesale. That doesn't, I mean, the words can be part of property, right? And there's a kind of value you can take from those ideas
00:11:21
Speaker
It's obviously a different question because again, I'm curious about a bad person, but I love that idea of, you know, once it's been put out there, it's kind of a common good to make use of.
00:11:33
Speaker
Right, right. I suppose it goes to one distinction we've talked about here before from Julia Galiff, and you have a conversation with her as this distinction between the soldier mindset, scout mindset. And what Seneca is explicitly saying is he has a scout mindset towards the Epicureans, or at least is
00:11:53
Speaker
aspiring to it, where he's trying to see what's true here, not seeing himself as marshalling arguments to defeat the Epicureans, or as another metaphor might be to an activist. Activists is aiming to use rhetoric in a way that achieves their goal, where the scout is just trying to get an accurate lay of the land, that map.
Virtue and Happiness Debate
00:12:22
Speaker
Yeah, I love it. And that's like, yeah, that's a, I would say intellectual quality that I think is one of the highest that you could have a couple's with humility, but that that scout mindset is a beautiful, beautiful thing. Yeah.
00:12:37
Speaker
one other thought Seneca has, I'm curious to get your response to this one as well, is that he suggests in some places that Stoicism and Epicureanism really are quite similar and even to the extent that
00:12:53
Speaker
Perhaps the Epicureans and some Stoics who argued against them were making futile distinctions or perhaps engaged in almost verbal arguments of some sort or another. At least that's how I read this line about Epicurus. So he says, Epicurus also decided that one who possesses virtue is happy, but that virtue of itself is not sufficient for the happy life.
00:13:22
Speaker
because the pleasure that results from virtue, and not virtue itself, makes one happy. This is a futile distinction, for the same philosopher declares that virtue never exists without pleasure, and therefore, if virtue is always connected with pleasure, and always inseparable therefrom, virtue is of itself sufficient. What's your response to that?
00:13:51
Speaker
Seneca's argument, if Epicurus thinks that virtue and pleasure are necessarily related or necessarily inter-entailing, or if virtue necessarily causes pleasure, then virtue is sufficient for happiness because if you have virtue, you'll have pleasure and therefore you'll have happiness. I think there's like two levels you can take this on. On one level, there's this idea of like, why are we fighting so much? You know, like,
00:14:19
Speaker
If we're both aiming for the same target and the stoic says, well, you're aiming for the target and the Epicurean says, no, you're aiming for the thing exactly behind the bullseye of the target. You both kind of aim the same way. You both practice. You both pull the bow. You both develop the same skill as the archer. And it's like, we really shouldn't argue this much.
00:14:42
Speaker
it's more just like a kind of a verbal nuance. That would be the charitable way to take what Seneca is saying. I think if I wanted to put on my philosopher hat and be really nitpicky about it, I guess I'd have to see Epicurus' arguments, but maybe there could be cases where you could have virtue and virtue brings pleasure, but not enough pleasure to make you happy. So it's necessary because an unvirtuous person will be guilty and anxious and
00:15:08
Speaker
uh jealous greedy and desiring so it's necessary but maybe it's not sufficient because there's a certain pleasure that comes with virtue but you know again the classic stoic argument that you could be happy on the torture rack it seems very plausible to me that the epicurean could say well virtue is necessary for happiness uh but it's not sufficient because you you get a pleasure of a good character but it doesn't overcome
00:15:34
Speaker
you know, the physical pain of being torture heard, for example. But that's, I would say, the second part where I would say, I don't think we want to, I don't think you should fully collapse them philosophically, although in practice, they might end up looking nearly indistinctually. Right, right. Yeah, there is a distinction there.
00:15:56
Speaker
This line reminded me of Nassim Taleb, who we recently cited about his book Anti-Fragile, who I think his way of thought is more pragmatic, practical, and
00:16:13
Speaker
may challenge some traditional Stoics, traditional Epicureans who thought if there's a serious distinction between their schools, where does it come out in action? Yes, there is a philosophical difference. It's grounding the good life, it's a happiness, it's a virtue.
00:16:33
Speaker
and we can think of edge cases, but where's that decision, that career path, that question about political, maybe engagement, where the philosophy makes a difference. Otherwise, basically just talking about the same thing. Well, I think that there's also, I mean, that's a great point. I think maybe there might be
00:17:01
Speaker
So I think maybe pragmatically collapse them and say like, yeah, both need virtue. But I think what virtue ends up looking like, you can both agree with that and then have a different argument for virtue. And I do think that's where it comes out of practice. I think in practice, we'll probably get into this later, this episode, but in practice, the biggest distinction is kind of your obligations towards other people, your obligations for social and political involvement, whereas I think Epicureanism can be quite selfish.
00:17:28
Speaker
where stoicism essentially is not. And that's, I think, a difference of what actually virtue looks like in practice. Right, right. Yeah, that'd be a way of answering the challenge. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's get into some of these places where Seneca quotes Epicurus. So I took a number of lines from Epicurus from Seneca's moral letters, the letters to Lucilius.
00:17:57
Speaker
and group them under different headings. So we can go through these headings.
Role of Philosophy in a Good Life
00:18:02
Speaker
The first place where he thinks that Epicurus illustrates a truth, something that's true, is that philosophy is
00:18:16
Speaker
exceptionally important. It's a part of living well, in particular the pursuit of knowledge. So Epicurus has one aphorism, the knowledge of vice is the beginning of salvation.
00:18:33
Speaker
which is something the Stoics, in addition to other Greek and Roman philosophers, would agree with 100%. They're interested in pursuing knowledge, and often self-improvement involves, as a first step, that knowledge of vice. This place is where one misses the mark.
00:19:01
Speaker
Yeah, it makes me think of Socrates. I know that I think as the beginning of philosophy. I've also been, I also think about that passage in Plato's symposium when they talk about the philosopher.
00:19:16
Speaker
loves wisdom and love entails kind of a lack, a longing, a desire to have something you don't have. And so this picture of like, how could you love self-improvement? How could you love knowledge or pursue knowledge unless you recognize there's a lack there, recognize that you don't have it, right? So you can't have that kind of motivation to change without a recognition that you're not at the destination you want to be at.
00:19:42
Speaker
Another line from Epicurus Seneca uses is, if you would enjoy real freedom, you must be the slave of philosophy. And Seneca continues in his own words, the man who submits and surrenders himself to her is not kept waiting. He is emancipated on the spot. For the very service of philosophy is freedom.
00:20:07
Speaker
And that one's sort of, I think, a classic, in a way, paradox. In order to be truly free, you need to submit yourself to something, at least follows that form, but the general
00:20:24
Speaker
idea, of course, is to put this practice of philosophy at that central point in one's life. The practice of philosophy is going to be what leads to the excellent life according to both the Stoics and the Epicureans. And that's Epicurus' ways, a memorable way to put it.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this is just basically responding to what these remind me of, but it's interesting how it differs from Epictetus.
00:21:04
Speaker
you know, Seneca saying like, you're not kept waiting, even just studying philosophy is freedom, where I think Epictetus would be a little bit more harsh on that. Let's say it's the path to freedom, you might be kept waiting, but Seneca seems to be a bit more positive here. But yeah, both think philosophy is a way of life is the way to go, and if you don't do this, you're in trouble.
00:21:30
Speaker
Yeah, so that's because somewhat unclear, at least in a section that I read, how fast, how long do you need to be in service before you're free? Hey, well, I've got one weekend, but I don't want to commit too much time to this. Yeah, that's right. I think on one hand, he has this view that the sage is rare.
00:21:59
Speaker
a very rare occurrence. So perhaps here we're seeing more of a rhetorical flourish, right? So you're not free in an instant, but you're on the path, which is probably similar to Aitida's view. Yeah, yeah. Seneca likes the flourish. Yeah, yeah. Another category I have here is urgency.
Living in the Present
00:22:28
Speaker
Epicurus has this wonderful quote, the fool with all his other faults has this also. He is always getting ready to live. And then he has another, Seneca also puts this as, it is bothersome always to be beginning life. Those two make me think of Epictetus's
00:22:54
Speaker
lines about the Olympics, you know, the Olympic Games have started. What are you doing? Causing his students against, you know, putting off their
00:23:07
Speaker
efforts to live well in the moment, whether that's by engaging in too much study, thinking you need to answer more questions before you're ready, or putting your hopes in some other teacher. I think in the Epicureans, a philosophy that
00:23:30
Speaker
pursues tranquility, we still see that focus that you don't have so much time, perhaps, and it's best to get going while you can. Yeah. So what's the argument? Like when he says the fool is always getting ready to live, the point here is that you're not really living unless you're doing philosophy. You're kind of always at the start of the Olympics, but not actually competing. Is that the idea?
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah, let me look at the, let me look at this letter. This is from the letter on Groundless Fears. But I think this is one of the letters where he takes a little bit of a detour, you know, sometimes a letter on a theme and then we'll end up with, in closing, I have this excellent line from some other philosopher that
00:24:19
Speaker
is not obviously connected to the theme. But he says, reflect my esteem, Glucilius, what this saying means. And you'll see how revolting is the fickleness of men who lay down everyday new foundations of life and begin to build up fresh hopes, even at the brink of the gray. And I think here it's, I think it's, um, you can read
00:24:46
Speaker
the fool with all his faults has this also. He's always getting ready to live as the claim that the fool procrastinates. They're always getting ready to pursue that career. But there's also that thought that
00:25:05
Speaker
they're not fully devoted to what they're doing especially in other letters you see Seneca critique people who read widely but not deeply or bounce from plan to plan almost in a way bounce from identity to identity if you and if you want to think about this in the role ethics case they haven't found the roles to devote themselves to fully and in that sense they are not
00:25:33
Speaker
fully living I Think that's a that's a that's the way to put it yeah, I mean it's like the person who's like I'll write my novel eventually or You know, I'll retire and then I'll start doing the things I want to do There's something tied in there with like memento mori Like not realizing that you'll die not realizing that you know, you need to live for the now
00:26:00
Speaker
And so just kind of off putting that and being stuck in this, I guess this complacency. Yeah, it's not good. I'm sympathetic towards it, but not good.
00:26:10
Speaker
Right, right. So there again we have a useful reminder from the Epicureans. So then one theme that I wanted to talk about that Seneca probably quotes Epicurus on the most is on the use of material wealth and our desires for material wealth.
00:26:36
Speaker
So a number of letters, he'll quote Epicurus on this theme.
Wealth and Desire in Epicureanism
00:26:42
Speaker
Some examples are, he who needs riches least enjoys riches most. Poverty brought into conformity with law of nature is great well. And also the acquisition of riches has been for many men, not an end, but a change of troubles.
00:27:06
Speaker
And he continues, we can go through a few more of those as these come up. But you can see, I think Seneca himself was a very wealthy man because of his political positions. He owned a substantial amount of property.
00:27:32
Speaker
That forces him to have an answer, you know, how do you use wealth? Well, what is the stoic answer to that? What is the virtuous use of wealth? And I think to some extent he finds it in Epicurus. And Epicurus was someone who was not rich, did not have a high position in society, but rather lived in essentially a secluded community.
00:28:02
Speaker
and taught these themes that are really quite, in a sense, stoic. Also, you get some sense of Musonius Rufus' teachings here from those lines, I think. And just about those reminders, I suppose, about what one's desires are and how that shapes how you relate to wealth. There's so much of our cravings for
00:28:33
Speaker
wealth bring not an end to our sufferings, but a change. Yeah, that makes me think of, I mean, it makes me think of people that win the lottery, right? That, I think, not just anecdotal, but I think actually measurable, where people kind of reset to a baseline happiness. And you think, well, if I win the lottery, things are going to be perfect. But no, it's just you quickly kind of fall back to that baseline static happiness.
00:29:00
Speaker
Now it's just different. Now it's just like, oh, I can't go outside without people bugging me. All people in my family are asking things or, oh, I'm trying to kind of hit that. I'm trying to hit that rush. I also think of people, there's kind of like a depression that occurs for people after they win the Olympics. Modern Olympics or you achieve a goal you've achieved and it's not.
00:29:22
Speaker
You don't, we're talking about material wealth, but that kind of recognition of the heat, it takes a hedonist to really understand the hedonistic treadmill. It takes a hedonist to really understand, oh wow, now that I've actually thought a lot about the nature of pleasure, it's clear to me that my way to get pleasure is not actually to have the thing that I desire.
00:29:43
Speaker
or the thing that I would say most people desire, material wealth at least. I think that's pretty insightful. I mean, you pointed that out with Seneca too, there's that irony of him being one of the richest men in the world at the time. I don't know, probably.
00:29:59
Speaker
I don't know perfectly, but certainly top 1,000 in my as far as I can tell. So you're talking about like today's equivalent of like a billionaire or something like this, right? Or like a very, very, very rich person reflecting on the nature of wealth and kind of
00:30:17
Speaker
I guess agreeing with it from position of experience and agreeing with the wisdom in these claims. Because sometimes these claims can be seen as the rationalization of people that don't have wealth, right? And that instillism gets that criticism too. It's like the rationalization of the people that don't have the things they want. So to see the rich person agreeing with this, I mean not necessarily giving up his wealth and leading it all away, but agreeing with this is I think kind of interesting.
00:30:45
Speaker
Right, right. And I think you can see, especially with that line, the acquisition of riches has been for many men, not an end, but a change of troubles. You see that in Seneca's life. He becomes exceptionally wealthy, likely didn't experience the euphoria that he predicted or at least others would have predicted for him. And in the end is forced to
00:31:12
Speaker
give up his wealth or at least offers to give up his wealth, return it to Nero, who he serves as a political advisor, in order to escape politics or to leave politics, which is the very thing, of course, that brought his wealth to him.
00:31:30
Speaker
So there you see exceptional success, but with that success came the sword of Damocles, I suppose. It's one way to put it, much higher risk for Seneca, and risk that's realized that the end of his life as Nero orders him to commit suicide. Yeah. Go ahead. Oh, no, go ahead.
00:31:56
Speaker
No, let's keep going and keep hearing what Epicurus has to say.
00:32:01
Speaker
So I think some other themes we have from both on material wealth is we have another line about Pythakles, which summarizes this Epicurean view of desire. If you wish to make Pythakles rich, do not add to his store of money, but subtract from his desires. And I think to abstract this out from
00:32:29
Speaker
material wealth. You can think about it as a principle for using indifference well, indifference like wealth, but also achievement, social status for the Stoics. Another pleasure itself would be an indifference. And what Seneca thinks we can take away from this is that theme of
00:32:59
Speaker
mastering desires for those things that don't bring lasting satisfaction, lasting happiness.
00:33:11
Speaker
which is of course a difficult project, but that is the project of philosophy is mastering our desires by changing how we think in particular, how we, uh, think about the nature of happiness and internalizing that, uh, those are exposed building up
00:33:34
Speaker
a character by repeatedly making decisions that show how our desires have changed and moved from thoughts into action. Yeah, agree with that.
00:33:50
Speaker
as you were saying that that focus on well the philosophy is this focus on the internal and then also this link here between Epicureanism and it still looks just called the discipline of desire I don't think
00:34:07
Speaker
Epicureans divided their philosophy in that way where they had a discipline of desire, but both just recognizing the, I guess harmful nature of desire. There's also kind of play on rich here like a kind of a
00:34:23
Speaker
Oh, obviously a word play. There was that other quote for poverty brought into conformity with the law of nature is great. Well, there's this kind of play on what it means to be wealthy, what it means to have things that resonates. I think it's really hard though. I don't like, this is really hard because, and that's the thing when you see that's, I think that's also the thing that's so perverse about like productivity hack stoicism.
00:34:50
Speaker
At the end of the day, these philosophies are about controlling your desires, reducing your desires, not in a way that's life denying, but in a way that you're basically refocusing them on what matters and what is really important. And so when productivity hacks those, you're just
00:35:13
Speaker
You're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. You're not questioning your desires. You're not changing your desires. And you can just be... You're doing this unreflectively. Obviously, there's space for productivity in any sort of life. But at its worst, you're not unreflectively just using it and satisfy your desires, which is like totally things mixed up.
00:35:34
Speaker
Right, right. I think that's something one can learn from the Stoics, but perhaps maybe learn best from some of the Eastern traditions is this other idea that desire always is always reemerging. And it's something one is always working on either reducing or accepting in particular ways, right? You know, you start with
00:36:04
Speaker
and insights, like the idea that wealth is not of absolute value and then catch yourself overvaluing status and the status that comes from a, some other, you know, maybe the position that this view gives you or something of that sort. And then adjust your character in some other ways and then find that this higher re-emerges again in some other form.
00:36:36
Speaker
I mean, that's just a part of the stoic path, I suppose, or path, that's just part of the path of improvement. Yeah, and as you said, the Eastern religions, they do it best, or focus on it the most, but it's really here in stoicism, and it's there in Epicureanism as well, and it's interesting that it's there in Epicureanism. Well, they're not interesting once you actually know it, but it's like,
00:37:02
Speaker
That's that. There's something so ironic about that, which is like the path to pleasure, not the path to satisfaction. Maybe the, maybe we're using, I'm using English words here, so it's getting a little twisted up, but the pleasurable life, the Epicureans would say, is one that consists in really mastering desire, not satisfying desire. And that is probably,
00:37:30
Speaker
as core of an Epicurean tenet as there is. I think that's probably one of the main, probably the main ethical insight of the Epicurean. Yeah, I think so. And I think they reject that caricature and hedonist view because of that, because of the fact that so many exceptionally
00:37:56
Speaker
pleasurable ecstatic euphoric experiences what have you come with this awakening of desire or feed desire I'm gonna sound really naive here because I don't really know much about hard drugs and I am naive so but I sometimes think in a vacuum I'm looking at a viewer thing this way but I'm like you know if I could do heroin
00:38:21
Speaker
and not be addicted to it and ethically source it and just have this incredibly pleasurable experience. That seems appealing. But the thing that prevents me from doing that is a recognition that it's then associated chemically and physically with an extreme desire that follows afterwards and an extreme desire that's difficult to satisfy and perpetually there.
00:38:45
Speaker
And so it's a silly example, but it's an example for me that kind of highlights this nature in its purest form, which is that, look, if I could get that peak without the valley, yeah, there's no issue with that. But the issue is that it's naturally tied in with that valley. And the peaks, as far as I'm aware, get harder and harder to achieve.
00:39:06
Speaker
And so that's what we're talking about in a very extreme sense, but it's the same kind of thing if you're making more and more money, lifestyle creep, anything like this, or more and more status. There's always somebody you want to impress. There's always somebody you want to like you or think a certain thing about you. And look, if you could have any of those experiences without the crash, I don't see any problem with it. You're not hurting anybody, but you're hurting yourself because they come with that crash, right?
00:39:36
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And effectively what you see with other, even other less extreme pleasures. You see that same, it's the same patterns.
00:39:54
Speaker
So I think that's, yeah, those are some thoughts on how the Epicureans saw material wealth and where Seneca quoted them. Last theme here we can talk about, or last large theme I wanted to chat about was on friendship. So the Epicureans
00:40:17
Speaker
disagreed with the Stoics where they thought that the happy life must include some amount of friendship.
Friendship and Happiness
00:40:31
Speaker
Which, of course, given our social nature and the circumstances we happen to be in, the Stoics hold, you know, agree
00:40:40
Speaker
with that claim to some extent. But Seneca does have a letter where he says, in a real sense, the sage doesn't need friends, but if they find themselves in society, then they will have friends, which I think the Epicureans will disagree with. But nonetheless, given that we find ourselves in society, there are lessons we can take from the Epicureans. And that's what Seneca does. One place where he
00:41:11
Speaker
Quotes Epicurus on this very theme is that Epicurus once said, the wise man is self-sufficient. And then he continues. This phrase, my dear Lucilius, is incorrectly explained by many, for they withdraw the wise man from the world and force him to dwell within his own skin.
00:41:31
Speaker
But we must mark with care what this sentence signifies and how far it applies. The wise man is sufficient unto himself for a happy existence, but not for mere existence. For he needs many helps towards mere existence, but for a happy existence he needs only a sound and upright soul, one that despises fortune.
00:41:57
Speaker
So here, even in the explanation of the sentence, you can see that a little bit of disagreement with Epicureanism, but nonetheless, he does make that distinction that I think Epicurus would as well, which is the idea that the wise man is self-sufficient.
00:42:15
Speaker
does not entail a rejection of society and also of course does not entail that they're the best competitor and survivor or something of this sort. They can literally live on their own, which is not true for the majority of humans perhaps. What do you think about that?
00:42:40
Speaker
I mean, I like my friends, I think friends are nice. I think this is, I'm on the pro-friend bandwagon here. There's something to be said, I mean, it's interesting to me with Epicureanism where I can't tell if it's like a priori or a posteriori, which is, I can't tell if the Epicureans are making their arguments
00:43:09
Speaker
empirically, which is to say, look, we've seen 100 people and we've seen the person that's the happiest. And it's that guy who like, you know, eat simply and hangs out with his buddies. Or if it's like, or if they have some sort of principle that they're like deriving these arguments from.
00:43:25
Speaker
Because it seems like modern science agrees empirically, right? I was just reading about this long-term Harvard study. I think it started in 1935. And it's ongoing. It's brought in people's children to keep it going. And it said empirically, it was physical health was really important. And then your loneliness and your connection with other people were some of the largest, the most important indicators for self-reported long-term happiness.
00:43:55
Speaker
So I think there's this, like, there's just this empirical fact when you look at it at the level of like pleasure that yeah, relationships matter. And this kind of, I think,
00:44:07
Speaker
relates to that virtue quality, which is that you're probably going to have better relationships if you're kind, forgiving, just. If you have these kind of virtues, you're probably going to have better relationships with people, more honest friendships, less transactional relationships.
00:44:28
Speaker
and things like this. So it all makes sense to me an Epicurean picture there. Hey, it's observational and maybe even if they're a bit off, you know, one good friend instead of a room of friends, you know, but the argument's there. The stomach idea of friendship, this is something we've talked about before. It's not really clear to me why a friend would be a good and not just the preferred and different. Maybe you have a sense of that.
00:44:56
Speaker
Um, I think it's a good, I think it's a, I think it's like a preferred and different. It's something we should select, but it's interesting for me to hear Seneca talk about the wise man, uh, you know, needing friends in this capacity or maybe I've misunderstood.
00:45:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's not so much that they, I think Seneca has a traditional stoke view where they do not need friends in order to live a happy life, but they do need other people, of course, for mere existence, which is just to say one needs to live in a society to survive or social animals. So I suppose this is a quote
00:45:43
Speaker
This is a place where the Epicureans and Stoics disagree. In the real sense, the Stoics think the wise man is self-sufficient, but at least does not need society for their happiness, even if they need them for mere existence. Yeah, I do think as progressing Stoics
00:46:09
Speaker
I think a lot of it gets muddled when we start talking about the wise men. I think as progressing stoics, we probably have something like the Epicurean would say, doesn't matter who you are, eat well, sleep well, have enough food and have enough shelter that you can live comfortably, but not so much that you get like
00:46:28
Speaker
vain and shallow and desire more and then like have a good group of friends you trust and could like talk to and make good relationships with that just sounds like good common sense advice and i think the progressing stoic we can really put a lot of
00:46:43
Speaker
responsibility for our development on ourselves, you can become a very lonely microcosm of a world when you become the inner citadel guarding impressions out there fighting off false impressions of the world. And I think there's something to be said for somebody progressing just like,
00:47:05
Speaker
connecting with other people, whether that's about philosophy or that's even just about things that are more casual. But I have a huge benefit in kind of processing how I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, my friends and people that are close to me.
00:47:20
Speaker
whether the sage needs that or not, what that looks like for the sage or not, it's certainly something that I think Epicurus emphasizes the right amount, and Stoicism probably emphasizes a bit too little, at least Epictetus does for the progressives though.
00:47:40
Speaker
Yeah, I think the Stoics do a good job emphasizing roles and roles one plays in society, but perhaps do underrate in some respect our dependence on others and what we can learn from.
00:48:06
Speaker
others, especially as progressors, dependents both in, of course, this mere existence sense that Seneca is talking about. But also if we think about others who are walking the path and in different places, there's much to learn there as well.
00:48:22
Speaker
There are a number of places where, I sound like they're quotes Epicurus with full agreements, but the aesthetics and Epicureans agree about the view of death. They think the virtuous person does not fear death. They agree on the importance of role models, modeling yourself after someone of high
00:48:48
Speaker
character and of course on the importance of philosophy and the virtuous life.
00:48:58
Speaker
But I think we can end it there. That's a general tour of some of the themes Seneca pulls out from Epicurus. And I think a good example of someone looking for places of agreement, places where one's so-called opponent has put things in an illuminating way. A good example of some playing the role of a scout. Yeah, specifically those last two we talked about.
00:49:27
Speaker
desire, like using indifference well by managing desire, limiting desire, and focusing on friendship. Yeah, and another way to think about it, I was like, who could have
00:49:40
Speaker
If you want to learn how to swim, go and talk to a swimmer. If you want to learn how to manage indifference well, go talk to the person who thinks that the secret to life is pleasure in managing indifference well, and they'll have something to tell you about how you desire things or the benefits of friendship. Because friendship, I guess, here is one of those hacks. It's one of the things that you can want and want and want, and it kind of at least seems to have a positive return.
00:50:08
Speaker
Um, it's one of those indifference that you can lean more into and get more out of. And so, yeah, you go, you know, you go to the expert, you go to the specialist, the Epicure hands. Do you want to, if you want to learn about that, they're the people to go to. I think that's a good emphasis that any stoic or, you know, any person in general can learn from. Nice. Yeah, that's well put. Awesome. Thanks, Michael.
00:50:32
Speaker
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00:50:51
Speaker
Stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyer.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.