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Kelli Send: Why Financial Wellness Is a Workplace Issue
9 Plays27 days ago
In this episode of MustardHub Voices: Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes sits down with Kelli Send, Co-Founder and SVP of Financial Planning Services at Francis LLC, to explore why financial wellness has become one of the most overlooked drivers of employee engagement, retention, and workplace performance.
With more than 35 years of experience in retirement planning and employee financial education, Kelli shares how her early experience inside the traditional brokerage industry revealed a major disconnect: most financial advice was built for wealthy investors, while everyday workers were left to navigate complex financial decisions on their own.
Together, they unpack the hidden impact of financial stress in the workplace, why 401(k) participation alone is not enough, and how employers can better support employees through holistic financial wellness programs. Kelli explains the difference between unbiased financial guidance and conflicted advice, why fiduciary responsibility matters, and how employers can create stronger cultures by helping employees achieve what she calls “work-life money balance.”
The conversation also explores the future of workplace financial wellness, including personalized financial education, AI-powered benefits support, generational differences in money habits, and why small and mid-sized businesses may actually have an advantage when it comes to supporting employees financially.
This episode is a must-watch for HR leaders, founders, benefits professionals, and business operators looking to improve employee well-being, reduce turnover, and build healthier, more productive workplaces through better financial support.
About Kelli Send:
Kelli Send is the Co-Founder and SVP of Financial Planning Services at Francis, where she leads the firm's financial wellness team. With more than 35 years of experience advising plan participants, Kelli oversees curriculum design and delivery as well as Francis's money coaching services. Under her leadership, the financial wellness team has earned more than 20 Eddy Awards for excellence in plan participant education.
Francis was founded on the principle that the American worker deserves holistic investment and money advice without jargon, judgment, or a hidden sales agenda. Kelli and her team work alongside clients, not above them, to help workers achieve what she calls work-life-money balance.
Outside of work, Kelli is a self-described master juggler of career, kids, and household. Her happy place is on top of a mountain with boards on her feet, with Disney World as a close second.
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Transcript
Introduction of Host and Guest
00:00:05
Speaker
Hello again, everyone. This is another installment of Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. In these episodes, I sit down with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes, and my guest today is Kelly Send.
00:00:17
Speaker
Kelly is the co-founder and SVP of Financial Planning Services at Francis. where she leads the firm's financial wellness team. and With more than 35 years of experience advising plan participants, Kelly oversees curriculum design and delivery, as well as Frances' money coaching services.
00:00:36
Speaker
Under her leadership, the financial wellness team has earned more than 20 Eddie Awards for Excellence in Plan Participant Education.
Purpose and Founding of Francis
00:00:44
Speaker
Frances was founded on the principle that American Worker deserves holistic investment and money advice without jargon, judgment, or a hidden sales agenda.
00:00:52
Speaker
Kelly and her team work alongside clients, not above them, to help workers achieve what she calls work-life money balance. and Outside of work, Kelly's a self-described master juggler of career, kids, and household. Her happy place is on top of a mountain with words on her feet with Disney World as a close
Discussion on Affordable Ski Locations
00:01:12
Speaker
second. Welcome to Behind the Build. Thanks for joining me, Kelly.
00:01:15
Speaker
Thank you, Curtis. It's ah ah my pleasure to be here. I'm excited to share... the wild world of financial planning in the workplace. i ah We'll dig into all things financial wellness in ah in a second, but I have to know first, I know you're an avid, I guess, snowboarder. Off the top of your head, tell me a great ski mountain that won't destroy your paycheck.
00:01:43
Speaker
oh A great ski mountain that will not destroy your paycheck. um I would have to argue, believe it or not, if you're going to go smaller, do in the Midwest, the best ski place. It's not a mountain. it's it's It's a little baby mountain. It's a place called Crystal Mountain in Michigan. It's one of my favorites.
00:02:02
Speaker
um we're We're from that area originally, and you can get in and out of there with you know very little very little cash, ah most of the expenses. And i I ski. I don't snowboard. Okay. Okay. Okay. Got it. Ski only.
00:02:16
Speaker
We took lessons quite some time ago at Snowmass. And at the end of the day, my husband said, I'm never skiing again. And I said, I'm never snowboarding again. So. ah match made in heaven, it sounds like. Yeah. um Thank you for that. That is good to know. um i will have to keep that sort of in my hip pocket next time I'm ah i'm planning a family vacay.
00:02:39
Speaker
But i want to I want to start with you. you know You've spent more than you know more than three decades advising plan participants.
Transition to Financial Wellness
00:02:47
Speaker
That's not you know a field I think people sort of stumble into casually. So what originally pulled you into financial wellness?
00:02:59
Speaker
Well, um I got my start as a broker at a large brokerage firm and quickly learned that it was more about selling people things than it was really helping people.
00:03:13
Speaker
I was attracted initially to the concept of of teaching. And so I prospected companies to be, this would have been, gosh, in the late eighty s to do lunch and learns about money topics in the hopes that then I would turn them into a retail wealth management client.
00:03:35
Speaker
And, I quickly learned, um, that, um, that organizations became, this was just, as just at the beginning of the 401k world, uh, that, that organizations really were, um really interested in understanding how to start 401k plan. So,
00:03:55
Speaker
um i received this prospect and went to who is still to this day, my business partner, Mike Francis, our my co-founder, who had already had developed
Francis's Independence and Client Trust
00:04:05
Speaker
a couple 401k plans that he was advising.
00:04:07
Speaker
And what drew me to it is really helping people and less about getting the rich richer, but really helping everyone. um And that is really the the impetus of what started Francis to begin with. And we grew it to the largest 401k team at that large brokerage. And ah back in 2004 went independent because um you really can't say you're independent unless you really get independent. And so we took the company out from underneath the large brokerage. This would have been in 2004 and have been growing ever since. With that same mantra, we're going to help everybody.
00:04:45
Speaker
um Everybody deserves you know um ah a sound money plan and help from professionals, not just the wealthy. um I love that. And I'm curious, like as as you spent the years inside that world before, you know, before you you founded Francis, what was it specifically, you know, you talked about... um a lot of things, right. You know, really helping people as opposed to helping, you know, the rich get richer. But I'm curious, like what are the things that bothered you about the way that the financial advice was like being delivered to the everyday workers, right. Was there a moment, was there a conversation with a participant or, or, or something that made that, you know, right. That sort of started that shift in your mind.
00:05:41
Speaker
Well, it it really is just just a massive misconnect because back in that era, this was when pensions were starting to go away and participants were given these crazy things called a 401k plan and given this list of investment choices with very little ability to know what know what they're doing and help or to understand what they were doing. And so... it really was a giant you know disconnect between making this entire population of these employees ah make these decisions and having really nowhere where to turn um is really created sort of that thing that we really need to help everyone. ah and And certainly the employer wants to help as well to the extent that they can financially, right? With offering benefits like this, because even today, 30 later,
00:06:37
Speaker
The average worker is still struggles with understanding basic you know financial planning topics. the The disconnect there is this.
00:06:49
Speaker
A broker will help them, but only if they already have money. So how do you help the worker that's got most of their money in their corporate retirement plan, their 401k plan, their four three b They don't have money to invest otherwise yeah elsewhere out in IRAs and this and that. So they make a really terrible prospect for the wealth manager.
00:07:11
Speaker
And in the way that we've structured our business is, you know, we are flat fee. We are paid just for our time. And so what happens in the wealth management industry is they want, because they get typically paid assets under management, so 1% fee or that whatever um that they have to from just the standpoint of how they, how they get paid.
00:07:35
Speaker
They really focus just on those C-suite individuals. yeah Our focus doesn't have to be that way. It can be much broader because we're just, we're paid paid differently. I want to hear about the founding story, right? I mean, this all of this, you know, the the observations that you had eventually became ah Francis. And when you named your your your business partner, it sort of clicked how it got the name.
00:08:01
Speaker
um I'm guessing, but you could probably share that with with everybody. um Tell me about the gap that you guys saw that nobody else was filling, right? There's there's obviously educate, right? You talk about um the the workers, right? didn't Didn't really understand or know what they were would doing. And so it's sort of clear to me, right? i Obviously being somewhat familiar with with the history, but perhaps you can kind of tell us a little bit about that story.
00:08:28
Speaker
Sure. um We had a large company that we still have today that came to us and said you know, we're hearing lots of stories about kind of pay for play arrangements within the mutual fund industry where brokers will get you know compensated or mutual fund companies will compensate the broker ah for shelf space so that their their their brokers will advertise and yeah promote their products.
00:08:56
Speaker
so this large company said to us, look, you know you need to sign off as a co-fiduciary. um There's fiduciary status and there's then there's a risk of fiduciary status, two different terms, right?
00:09:09
Speaker
um People use them interchangeably, frankly, incorrectly. um But we went to the top of the organization of this large brokerage firm, and said, look, this company is asking us to sign off as an Arisa fiduciary. And the answer was, you know, get out of here. I don't know if it was partly because, you know, we were this Midwest-based, you know, pretty young, you know, ah specialty team for the firm or whatever. But I do think ultimately it's the, it's that you cannot be selling mutual funds and make a living selling mutual funds and claim you're independent.
00:09:44
Speaker
And so it was that sort of aha moment. Um, Furthermore, my business partner graduated from law school, went to law school at night. And really, it started to change our perspective about what does it really mean to be a fiduciary?
00:09:58
Speaker
And so that's really was sort of that we've got to leave the large brokerage firm um or stop saying that we're independent. It was really a would you rather, right?
00:10:08
Speaker
um And so that's what spurred this effort to depart. Yeah.
Services Offered by Francis
00:10:13
Speaker
So ah ay for listening hearing for listeners that are that are sort of hearing about Francis for the first time, maybe you can walk us through what you do, who are your clients. You don't have to name any names, but you can kind of give us a picture of who your clients are and what does engagement actually look like? Yeah, great.
00:10:30
Speaker
So Francis is an investment consultant in the retirement plan world. So you're an employer. You offer a 401k plan. There are some legal responsibilities that you must ah perform.
00:10:43
Speaker
make sure that you've got good plan design, make sure that you've got good investment choices for your folks. um That all is what we do on our investment consulting side. And we have, you know, 14 billion under advisement at this point ah doing just that. So we help regional national employers, help them design and build their retirement plans.
00:11:06
Speaker
um That is a completely separate customer than my customer. My customer are the employees or the people that have money in the plan. um Years ago, there was a thing, a body of law that passed the 404C, they call it basically, is the employer, one of their fiduciary responsibilities is to provide adequate information and education.
00:11:26
Speaker
Well, what does that mean, right? So how do you do that? so They call you. many yeah Yeah, exactly. i mean, how do you how do you know if they're and if they're engaged, right? So we started the practice really focusing more on the 401K, right?
00:11:40
Speaker
where we would we would hold classes at these locations at different corporations, whether they be a law firm or you know a firm selling widgets, right? Factory folks. um we Right now we have three bilingual Spanish speakers where we do just a ton of work in Spanish speaking communities.
00:11:57
Speaker
And so it's it's started there. um What we we quickly learned is that a person's money life isn't just about the four one k And there has been engagement issues with 401ks forever since they've started. And the industry has has largely responded by automating things, which is a fantastic thing.
00:12:21
Speaker
Automatic enrollment, right? When you get hired, you're automatically enrolled. Your savings are automatically increased. And then there's auto mutual funds, target date mutual funds. So the industry has really done a great job automating the 401k decisions.
00:12:35
Speaker
But you quickly learn meeting with individuals, which is what we do all day long every day, that their money life isn't just about the 401k. yeah And their preparedness for retirement very much depends on all the other things.
00:12:51
Speaker
Right. Savings, debt, you know other IRAs, spousal accounts, saving for college. i mean, the list goes on and on and on. So over the years, we expanded to include a ah broad-based financial planning benefit.
00:13:05
Speaker
even tax planning today is within our purview. And so it really started with very much of a, you know, and and and the industry talks about 401k one-on-ones, which means that your record keeper, one of the big mutual fund companies, sends a rep, they meet with the people, they get online, they pick savings percentage, they decide the tax treatment, they pick their funds and out they go. And then 20 minutes later, somebody else comes in. It's literally that.
00:13:30
Speaker
And that's kind of what we started with. We are now much more holistic financial planning services because it isn't just about the 401k and the ability to effectively prepare for retirement is very much dependent upon the ability to manage money today, budgets, debt, things like that. And so we broadened it. The the broadening of what we do is, was just a natural outcome of how you start to work with families and you get to know them.
00:13:57
Speaker
You realize that it's so interchangeable. um It isn't just 401k and done. It just is not. You you you use this phrase, work-life money balance, which, yeah I mean, is a deliberate addition, right, to the usual work-life balance language, which I really like that. I mean, so why does money belong in that equation, right? What what changes when employers start treating it that way?
00:14:27
Speaker
Well, what why do people work? To live. To get money. Yeah. Right. And so those two things work, you know, work life balance. I can't even say work life anymore. I've been so used to saying work life money. um yeah You know, money is or the lack of it is core.
00:14:49
Speaker
Right. And that's the reason why we get up in the morning and work, you know, um And so we find, and in fact, so much of our, the thing that we, we advertise on our website is, you know, how do we find work-life money balance? That's why we, we have things like, you know, ski stories on our website.
00:15:06
Speaker
Um, but frankly, it's, it, it's all intermixed and, um you, you pay your worker from, event if you're, if you're a person trying to decide, okay, do we engage, do we do this kind of employee benefit?
00:15:19
Speaker
Um, we We have a group of employees that that um they put in a good day's work, but whether or not they're going to be productive and effective is going to be based on all everything else in their lives, which is foundational to money. And so that's how we started with this work-life money balance is ah money is integral in both work and life. And so it needs to be included in the equation. Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:47
Speaker
So one one of the i want to ask you a little bit about this this industry problem that you um were pretty direct about, right? You you you said that wealth managers,
00:15:57
Speaker
um how did you say it? or They often deliver this conflicted advice, right? um And that most workers are left with nowhere to really go. So I want you to unpack this for me. like what is What does conflicted advice look like in practice first?
00:16:17
Speaker
Happy to do so. um Conflicts arise when you, the firm, or the representative of the firm, personally benefit by a decision that a participant makes.
00:16:34
Speaker
ah Even large 401k record keepers, not going to name names, but large firms that do 401k record keeping. So when you go to your statement, tell That's the name on the statement, right? That's the website you go to when you check your account.
00:16:51
Speaker
Virtually all of them are conflicted as well, meaning that what they really want is for you to, when you leave that job, roll your money over into one of their IRAs where they get paid way more than if they were just left in the retirement plan at work.
00:17:08
Speaker
And so the question becomes kind of who owns the data, right? So record keepers, will go out and um pitch um these departed people by literally placing outbound phone calls um to try to get them to roll money into one of their IRAs, which frankly is, in most cases, higher cost. Now, our model is if somebody wants to do that because they want to go out and buy Apple stock and not the 12 choices that are available into the workplace plan, we'll help them find somebody and do it, right?
00:17:43
Speaker
so it's but But there is the sense that they're all there to help when they make money based on the decision, yes, I'm going to open up that IRA when I leave my employer, or no, I'm going to stay in the the corporate retirement plan.
00:17:58
Speaker
So that's one type of conflict is the the actual record keeper for the plan, that the employer is hired, right? That record keeper winds up... essentially creating a very clever customer pipeline for themselves.
00:18:15
Speaker
That's really all that that winds up being, right? And it's brilliant, right? And large mutual fund companies have largely been been successful and are getting even more successful and even larger because this constant pipeline. Yeah.
00:18:28
Speaker
ah The second conflict comes in with the investment consulting work. So you're now an investment consultant sitting on the same side of the table as the employer and you're helping them. with the their retirement plan.
00:18:41
Speaker
Many of our competitors have a side car, if you will, ah ah the wealth management side, same same firm, and they can direct the conversation in such a way that the folks will roll money into them as well. Guess what? That's also conflicted.
00:19:00
Speaker
And so the way that Francis was founded is to completely eliminate all of that. We're simply paid for our time, just like an attorney, Or an accountant would be paid um because we believe that's the right thing for the participant.
00:19:14
Speaker
um And you can make, I'm sure there's probably four one k consultants that do what we do that have the the side, wealth management side that think we're crazy. But it it if any time you do that, it results in uneven delivery because they're not going to spend time on the person that has $10,000 in their plan.
00:19:35
Speaker
They want to spend time with the person that has a million dollars in their plan. And that's that's that's the that's the problem. i And I would say it it doesn't it extends even this particular problem extends far beyond 401ks, right? In any kind of wealth management, you walk into a Chase Bank and and all of their you know ah wealth advisors are going to be selling Chase products. um Am i sort of directionally right on that?
00:20:04
Speaker
ah You are. Sometimes they'll offer certain mutual fund families that do provide them commission. So it won't be necessarily that particular brand name, but it's it's just that, you know, and you know, you don't, you don't make a lot of money as a wealth manager, helping people build an emergency fund yeah or helping people with social security or Medicare or some of these other issues that we run into every single day. So it's a much more even delivery. It's equitable.
00:20:31
Speaker
rather than only shooting for the people that already have the money. um And it just, it makes better better workplaces because people stick around. You know, I will tell you one just it precious story. This was not me that actually had this happen to. It was a colleague of mine.
00:20:48
Speaker
We had the unfortunate situation where a client of ours had to get rid of a particular location. So they, everyone received layoff notices and we were brought there to help them understand what they could do with their 401k plan. And at the end of the meeting, a woman walked up to one of my colleagues and said, you know, is there any other companies in this city that you work with? Because if, if there are, that's where I'm going to apply for my next job.
00:21:18
Speaker
Isn't that crazy? Because like that yes, you knew how valuable this was for help. And that if, if they had Francis, then that means that those folks care about their employees.
00:21:31
Speaker
So how how would the average worker even know whether the person in front of them has their best interests at at heart? and That's one question. And the second is, I guess, if they didn't, I mean, what's the what's the real cost of that conflicted advice, you know, for the worker, for their family, for the employer who thinks they're offering a benefit?
00:21:52
Speaker
Right. Well, it's it's interesting because the word fiduciary is thrown out like crazy. to advertise that that is someone that has your best interests in mind.
00:22:06
Speaker
And there's even been several regulations that have been implemented and then and then turned off. And so it's been an issue in the industry for years. um They really, someone that says that they are a fiduciary, they are only a fiduciary after you say yes to buying their investment products, right? And so then once you say yes and you become a customer,
00:22:28
Speaker
then they're gonna charge you a percentage of assets. So the word fiduciary oftentimes is code for, they're gonna you're gonna get charged a percent of assets. Now, is that terrible?
00:22:41
Speaker
No, it is not necessarily. And so you make a great point, Curtis, is you know what's the harm, right? And so some of the folks that do what we do in a conflicted way will say, well, at least conflicted advice is better than no advice.
00:22:55
Speaker
And if that's the business model that they want, that more power to them, right? That's just not how we've chosen to run our firm. And so it's really that issue. um How a person knows is they just need to understand how their proposed planner advisor is going to be compensated.
00:23:15
Speaker
And if it's a percentage of of assets, then you then compare that to what you're paying in your 401k. And oftentimes you'll find that staying in that 401k is way more cost effective.
00:23:30
Speaker
One of the things that you've said that sort of surprised me, right, is that financial stress is kind of a reality for most people, regardless of income, which I think that that kind of cuts against this assumption, right, that that it's just a low wage problem.
00:23:47
Speaker
Yeah. and So I'm kind of, yeah, i kind I see you mounting. I'm kind of curious, like, tell me what you see that makes this true. It is not a low wage problem. It is absolutely not. um It is the lack of of comfort level of knowing what to do and that money is by definition a limited commodity.
00:24:10
Speaker
What is the old saying? This dates me, but there's a lot more places for my money than money for my places. it's are skin but You know, it it regardless, you know, so it it isn't. something that just plagues those folks that have jobs where they don't earn much. It's stress is an issue because by definition, it's a limited commodity. If we got paid any amount we wanted to, we wouldn't be stressed.
00:24:39
Speaker
But, and plus it's a personal issue. ah Families don't always want to talk about it. um I don't think I did that great of a job and I'm in this business, right? So it's, It's a matter of where do people turn now? Some states, Wisconsin, which is where I live, has implemented some of this now where they've mandated it to be part of the high school curriculum.
00:25:01
Speaker
We're all about that ah because they just people don't. You know, we know i have young engineers that graduate and they don't they don't know hardly anything. And they've they're very highly highly yeah highly educated.
00:25:13
Speaker
um There is a lot of talk today about. um The sort of that the initial incomes, ah if people have a hard time making ends with that, with the amount of student loans, oftentimes when they they come out of college.
00:25:31
Speaker
There has been a great resurgence in our workplace um of, you know, going into the trades, because generally speaking, those folks that are in those trades and spend a career there are pretty darn well prepared.
00:25:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah um And so money stress is something that we all carry around with us um because by definition, we don't have it and we work for it.
00:25:56
Speaker
But then there's a matter of there's a million different ways that we can we can spend it. And what we try to do is provide structure. We don't want to be a ah company that says you can never do anything or dismissive. Oh, just spend one less, you know, one less day at Starbucks buying a mocha. That's dismissive.
00:26:13
Speaker
Right. It's helping people understand kind of how do I in small little bits make make make positive change. um you talked about You talked about financial stress.
00:26:24
Speaker
um How does that show up at work? What does that actually look like on a Monday morning in a meeting in someone's performance you know or performance reviews?
00:26:35
Speaker
Tell me. Well, um there are several studies that would – they use the term presenteeism. where they're there, they're present, but they're thinking about other things.
00:26:47
Speaker
And so how many hours during, during your day, do you, do you find yourself wandering, um, and thinking about other things? Um, certainly it can, um manifest itself, uh, in more days off, right? You um, you've got to, you've got to take care of somebody that's, you know, out of work or something, yeah know, there's, there's all of those things as well.
00:27:11
Speaker
So, um, And it helps to me, the biggest factor is does this from ah from an employer perspective, keep people at work working and productive? Because um we have seen that this benefit does lower turnover.
00:27:32
Speaker
um And that is a very good thing for employers because then they don't have to retrain, you know, so providing this benefit. And oh, by the way, Curtis, it is the number one obstacle that we have as a firm is because of the way that we are paid, we have to get paid to do what we do. We're not getting paid based on assets. So some of our plans pay for it, or some of our employers pay for it out of corporate coffers.
00:28:00
Speaker
And that's a tough conversation to have with a tough CFO. That's like, wait a minute, we're going to provide financial planning and we have to pay for it. Right. But, but that's starting to kind of turn the tide is turning where people realize these, these CFO types and CH,
00:28:17
Speaker
I'm sorry, Chief Financial Resources Officers. I can't say that. But, you know, they they have discovered that, frankly, this type of benefit does keep people in their seats working.
00:28:31
Speaker
But then, you know what it does that's even more amazing is people retire on time. You know what i mean? So, you you've got people that are just like, we're we're working with a university now. and the local university. And the comment was, you know, we want to hire Francis to help our teams achieve retire, but then go ahead and get retired so that the newer, younger ones can come in, you know? So it's helping that worker stick stay where you want them as an employer. And then when they're done, then they ride off into the sunset with their money and have a great life, allowing lower paid individuals to go into those spots. Yeah.
00:29:10
Speaker
do you Do you think that leaders are connecting the dots between the the financial stress and like what you're talking about, the engagement, the retention, the productivity issues that they're that sometimes they're trying to solve elsewhere?
00:29:21
Speaker
They are. They're starting to. It's been a slow, slow start. But I think there is a recognition. You know, one of the challenges is if you're an hr executive is you know, what is a financial wellness program look like? Because In order to really make a successful program, we would argue you need to have people engaged.
00:29:43
Speaker
So offering workshops from your record keeper, you know, most of these large record keepers today, you know, they have, oh gosh, you know, an article, they'll be, you know, come and listen to a class on budgeting. And and so there's there's all this really great classes that they can attend.
00:29:58
Speaker
But in general, the worker's just not engaged enough. We have found that having a personal relationship with a planner, ah is it really really moves the needle much more effectively than just group type education because you still have to get people to come to these. And and certain industries, healthcare, care for example, oh my gosh, totally, to get people to come to meetings, ah you really yeah forget it. and So it is it varies based on the industry as well.
00:30:27
Speaker
you know But I think, yes, HR folks, CFO types are starting to recognize that a financially healthy um, worker or one that has access access to someone to help them is a better worker. It's just paying for it. Right now, the other half of our plans will actually debit this. It can be a completely free benefit free to the employer because it comes out of the 401k plan.
00:30:55
Speaker
This is a approved expense for the 401k plan. So some of our plans do that as well. Um, want to, I want to talk a little bit about, um,
00:31:06
Speaker
you know, some of those folks in small and medium sized businesses, right? Because I think there's this assumption that like financial wellness is a big company benefit. Something like, you know, fortune 500s offer, maybe not like a 40 person company, you know, can pull off or something like that. What do you say to that?
00:31:24
Speaker
Um, I would actually suggest that midsize to smaller size employer is actually going to be easier to implement. Um, Oh,
00:31:36
Speaker
You know, on average, if we've got 20% of the population meeting with a Francis planner every year, 20% of 40,000 people is a lot.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah. Right? So, in fact, smaller employers, where it's not such a big, giant budget item, I think is actually more effective. um What can they do better than the large enterprises when it comes to supporting their people financially? Yeah. You know, it sounds like you're talking about some structural advantages, maybe.
00:32:09
Speaker
Well, ah yes. Often smaller employers tend to be not national in scope. Right. So they're more, you know, kind of centrally located in one location. And so it's much easier to have Francis financial planner come in and spend two or three days there and meet with people.
00:32:27
Speaker
um I will tell you that COVID has been a really good thing for this practice because, We now are using this technology all the time. We actually, pre-COVID, we were 80% on-site and 20% virtual.
00:32:43
Speaker
Post-COVID, it's about 60 on-site, 40 virtual. Part of it is aging, right? with the As the workforce ages out, the people that are not so comfortable with technology are retiring.
00:32:55
Speaker
um But it's that mid-size employer that can really dig in deep and really help their folks because they're dealing with everybody in maybe one or two or three or four locations. Where it becomes more challenging and therefore all virtual is in a national employer. You know, we work with, um you know, several of firms that are really truly national.
00:33:16
Speaker
um and And that challenge ends up being communication, right? Is how do you in the HR world, in the benefits world, make sure that your're your employees that might be in Anchorage or Miami, you know, right? How do they, how do you get the word out, you know, about what what you do? And so um I think it's easier when it's smaller, mid-sized employers because they just have communication methods, you know, yeah all so all staff, you know, messages from the president kind of things that allow them to kind of get the word out.
00:33:51
Speaker
Are there fewer regulatory obstacles as well, or is that not a main or even ah an issue worth considering? Not really. I mean, ah the 401k world is, you know regardless of size, the employer must do these things. you know These are their fiduciary duties, their risk of fiduciaries.
00:34:10
Speaker
um So regardless of size. um I think when you get really small, you know we're talking you know under 50 employees maybe. um it becomes difficult to um to to scale because there's just, you know if you've got 50 employees and you typically your budget's going to be pretty small, you may not be able to afford you know this type of this type of financial planning benefit um if you're going to pay for it out of out of corporate dollars.
00:34:42
Speaker
Most employers, you you mentioned, I guess, that most most employers... larger employers, right? You know, you've said the industry has done a decent job there because most employers will offer something, right? Like their sponsor, they will sponsor a retirement plan. um Or maybe you you talked about auto enrolling, auto escalating.
00:35:02
Speaker
um But you also said that the workers are are left sort of on their own for almost every other money issue. So, Talk to me about some of the gaps right that the 401k participation alone doesn't solve. ah First and foremost would be um what employee benefits do i consume?
00:35:25
Speaker
Do I do the life insurance? Do I do the supplemental life insurance? Do I do the high deductible health plan with the HSA or don't i um Where should I bank? Should I do a high yield savings account or should I do a regular bank? And should I pay my car off or my student loans off or my credit card off first?
00:35:47
Speaker
You have identified quite a few. yeah It's just like all that. if you were going to redesign an employer-sponsored financial support like from scratch, what what would it include if you're designing this?
00:36:04
Speaker
Well, the industry is on to some of it because some of the programs that I love are um emergency funds that are as part of the employer plan. Recent laws, Secure 2.0 is the name of the legislation that that built some of that still has some long way to go on that.
00:36:23
Speaker
um But truly, this is going to sound self-serving. I get it. But it's really basically having having this ah financial planning benefit that can help with all of those things.
00:36:34
Speaker
um sponsored by the employer. I mean, you the employer now offers, who i mean, who would have thought what, how many years ago, 80 years ago or whatever, we didn't even have health insurance. Employers weren't involved in that, right? yeah um And so I feel sometimes bad for poor HR folks because everything is their responsibility, right? They've got so much on their plate, but it's employees look to them. So to me, it's offering an employer solution that is either certainly sponsored by the employer, doesn't have to be paid by the employer, it just comes out of the 401k as part of the 401k fees.
00:37:12
Speaker
And so that's kind of how I would build it if we could start over. but Well, you mentioned that that that some things are trending in the right direction. So let's do like let's do some forward looking here.
00:37:27
Speaker
How do you see maybe the workforce's expectations around financial wellness shifting over the next few years, right? So not necessarily the actual things, but people's perception of the things. Is that changing?
00:37:43
Speaker
I think they're relying on their employer more and more. And that trend started way back when, you know, and so it's the employer's involvement. So, you know, the chief executive that has the attitude and some do um look, I pay my people to do this job for me.
00:38:01
Speaker
I don't care what they do with their money when they leave the building. Right. So it's it's incorporating that recognition that it's on the employer and the employerer. can through very low cost because now you're leveraging everybody together offer these types of services.
00:38:17
Speaker
um One case in point is there's a firm that actually some of our clients use this where they will, you will sign up for one year of of legal help.
00:38:30
Speaker
So people will sign up for that for the year. They'll get their wills done.
Trends in Financial Planning
00:38:34
Speaker
They'll get all that thing set up and then they just turn it off. So having having some of those types of programs, um I think is is is is going to be increasingly um important and asked for you know by the the workforce.
00:38:50
Speaker
um Secondly, I think there is a huge trend towards, I guess the industry would call it hyper customization. So um I'm in my 401k plan and i am you know I'm taking maternity leave.
00:39:05
Speaker
Well, wouldn't it be cool if your 401k provider could send you information about that? You know what mean? so really being able to customize the communication down to the level of what's happening in somebody's life.
00:39:17
Speaker
They're going to, you we're going to engage that. Examples, we do we do biweekly classes on various topics. And we learned several years ago, we get real narrow with those. um Managing money in the case of marriage or divorce, you know, um building confidence for global families. We get real narrow with them. To just talk about, well, you need to save in your 401k plan. It's too generic.
00:39:41
Speaker
So getting much more customized. um I think this tool right here, right, has to be first and foremost. So it's apps. It's, um you know, using an AI tool to answer benefit questions. These are all things that we're doing that I just think it becomes a lot more, a lot. There's lot going to be more demand rather than less demand going forward.
00:40:04
Speaker
think it's interesting that you said that you feel that folks are relying more on their employer of for those things, which I don't disagree, actually. I think that that's also very much the case. What I find so interesting is at the very same time that that's taking place,
00:40:20
Speaker
more of the workforce is actually moving towards fractional contract, even part-time employment, right? So these two trends are happening simultaneously, which on the surface, right, wouldn't you wouldn't think they they did they don't go together, right?
00:40:40
Speaker
If the workforce is trending in this direction, right, that seems to be more... um
00:40:47
Speaker
misaligned right from, from like the, the employer employee relationship, right. More part-time, more fractional, more con contract. And yet at the same time, the workers that are, are, you know, w two are now relying more on their employer for these types of things.
00:41:07
Speaker
Just a really interesting, i i don't know how that I have more commentary other than it's really kind of fascinating how those two trends are happening simultaneously. yeah And it wouldnt wouldn't it be interesting? An interesting study would be, of course, it'd take you a long time.
00:41:21
Speaker
You know, 20 years from now, if you were a contract worker, what is your financial condition? And if you were a regular W-2 employee, where were your what you know what was your financial condition? Because I agree with you, there is a lot more.
00:41:34
Speaker
But with freedom, being a contract worker, I think comes at a cost because we generally see employees that have Maybe one is ah ah a participant of ours and their their spouse is a contract worker or something like that.
00:41:49
Speaker
um They tend to not save as much for retirement. But it'd be a very interesting you know long-term study to do, no doubt, because I i suspect, I think, ifd be they'd be worse off.
00:42:00
Speaker
But I can't prove it. i I think that it it it reinforces this need, I think, and it stresses the need for reforms when it comes to these concepts of portability, um of benefits portability, right? um you know and And obviously that's probably a whole other um that's ah That's a whole other podcast episode on its own, um but it's really the one thing that to me can actually tie those two things together. Not necessarily a simple thing, but you know could be very much forward forward thinking. Do you you feel like there's generational differences um you know that play here? Like what younger workers ask versus what older workers need? um That generational difference.
00:42:48
Speaker
ah difference, I think, when it comes to benefits and things like that, I think can sometimes be, you know, a really, really critical problem for some organizations. They don't personalize. It's it's generational.
00:43:04
Speaker
It's also geographical. Now, right people are oftentimes surprised that there are parts of the state that I live in that don't have reliable high-speed internet in their communities.
00:43:17
Speaker
Mind blowing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You know, so they just, it's so rural, you know, that they don't, that they don't have it, but it absolutely is generational. I think, uh, the younger generation wants everything solved within this device right here. Right. If they can't get it on here, um, and they want an instant answer, um, using AI solutions answer,
00:43:43
Speaker
there is still, what do they say? Is there now three or four or five generations in the workplace to that to today? Because there are still, um you know, the, yeah what do they call it? The silent generation or the greatest generation, you know, be the pre-baby boomers. There's still some of those folks in the workplace and they don't do things like computers. And I think one of the, you know, what case in point, you know, um there are people today,
00:44:11
Speaker
that have no idea that even have a plan balance. There was one of these Northern Wisconsin participants that came in to see one of my colleagues and was downtrodden, just was just, and he said some four letter words about how he needs to get his, you know what together. And he's really ready, ready. He's gonna save, he's gonna do it, right? So my colleague meets with them, come to find out he had over $70,000 in his 401k and he had no knowledge.
00:44:37
Speaker
wow Now, how do you not have knowledge? well You don't send pay stubs anymore. So he had no idea he was saving. His employer automatically enrolled him, automatically increased his savings, put him in a target date fund.
00:44:50
Speaker
Record keepers don't send statements anymore. You know, so that'll be fine once all of those individuals that are really not technology engaged go ahead and retire. But right now it's it's kind of a problem, you know, and When he showed him that he still had 75 grand in there and he had no idea, he was just like, wow. And and frankly, case in point, there is a huge trend today or huge and not in a good way with abandoned 401ks because people leave their employer and they they don't get statements so they don't know.
00:45:22
Speaker
um Secure 2.0 passed a law that said, or was it 1.0? It might've been, done anyway, one of the Secure Acts ah that now paper statements are actually required once a year.
00:45:33
Speaker
And that seems so old school to the young person, but it is critical. And so it's really having the industry bri understand that not everybody has this in the palm of their hands.
00:45:45
Speaker
And therefore they need to make sure that they're communicating and engaging um with with clients. And so absolutely, I see that um while technology and instant quick bits of you know education is just catered just to you personally,
00:46:02
Speaker
is the future. The recognition is, is there still workers out there that just don't, don't do it ah and need traditional forms of communication. So that's why when, when somebody says what engagement technique works best, it's like all of it. Yep.
00:46:18
Speaker
You too. I'd love to, like just to wrap us up here. I have a question for you, you know, something always really like to ask, you know, if you, if a leader, a business leader came up to you, and then I'm, I'm sure this probably happens. um quite a bit. As a matter of fact, you know, they want to know how to genuinely support their people's financial wellbeing, but don't necessarily know where to start and don't have a fortune five hundred s budget.
Advice for Financial Leaders
00:46:47
Speaker
What's that single most important piece of advice that you, that you give them? If you only had a minute, you're on an elevator up to the top floor before the doors open. What is that one thing you tell them? they They need to listen to their people. They should get them together in a focus group and interview them and say, what do you need?
00:47:03
Speaker
You let's hear from your folks. I like that idea. Get a focus group together. Kelly, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate hpii appreciate you being here. Well, it was a pleasure speaking with you, Curtis. We really thank you for the opportunity.
00:47:21
Speaker
We covered a lot of good ground. um Thanks to all you watching and listening to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. Please visit mustardhub.com to learn more about Mustard Hub and discover how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge.
00:47:40
Speaker
Until next time. Thank you.