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Paul O'Brien: Why You're Solving the Wrong Problem
9 Plays8 days ago
In this episode of Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes sits down with entrepreneur, author, ecosystem strategist, and Startup Economist Paul O'Brien for a wide-ranging conversation on startups, workforce development, public policy, and the future of work.
Drawing on decades of experience in Silicon Valley, Austin, venture ecosystems, and economic development, Paul challenges conventional thinking about entrepreneurship, talent, hiring, and innovation. He argues that many of the systems organizations rely on today - from startup support programs to workforce development initiatives and hiring practices - are solving the wrong problems.
Together, Curtis and Paul explore why startup failure rates remain stubbornly high, why workforce challenges are often problems of optionality rather than talent shortages, and how better infrastructure, data, and workforce intelligence can help organizations make smarter decisions before problems surface.
The conversation also dives into the changing relationship between employers and employees, the evolution of benefits and compensation, the rise of the gig economy, and why predictive workforce intelligence may become one of the most important categories in HR technology over the next decade.
About the Guest
Paul O’Brien is the Managing Director of Startup Economist and the author of Startup Ecosystems, a new book distilled from two decades spent building the infrastructure behind entrepreneurship and venture capital. Based in Austin, Paul advises cities, governments, corporations, and economic development organizations on how venture activity actually gets built: through media, incubators, partnerships, and policy rather than branding and ribbon-cuttings. He’s helped shape Texas into a recognized startup hub and supported programs like Founder Institute and Mass Challenge. His analysis of startups, innovation, economic development, and the future of work reaches a readership of more than 140,000, including people at firms like Google and Sequoia. Much of his attention lives at the intersection of public policy and people: education, entrepreneurship, mental health, and the workforce. He is also the Chief Marketing Officer of MustardHub.
Learn More
- Startup Economist by Paul O'Brien
- seobrien.com
- mustardhub.com
If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build for more conversations with the leaders, innovators, and builders shaping the future of work.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome back to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. In these episodes, I sit down with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes. This is a very special episode of Behind the Build. i have with me today, Mr. Paul O'Brien. Paul, I'm going to let you introduce yourself.
Understanding Startup Failures
00:00:25
Speaker
Howdy. Howdy. Morning, everybody, or good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are.
00:00:30
Speaker
Hi. Honored to be here. i I have worked in startup ecosystems in the startup economy for 25, 30 years. And I'm very passionate about a notion that a startups by and large for the last 30 years have actually consistently failed at the same rate, at a rate of about 90%. And we say that as though it's encouraging of founders, like, don't worry about it. Most startups fail. It's not a big deal.
00:01:02
Speaker
This is the way it
Marketing Evolution and Economic Impact
00:01:03
Speaker
is. And yet nobody ever started to ask, despite having accelerators and and government programs and workforce development programs for for entrepreneurs, why is the rate of failure the same? Shouldn't it be better?
00:01:18
Speaker
um And so i I do that kind of work. i'm I'm very passionate about trying to change that number. And so I do a lot of work in in public policy. I do a lot of work in in education, publishing quite a bit.
00:01:31
Speaker
I do a lot of research about the workforce and and job training and putting together teams. ah and And I'm just desperately passionate about the idea that we shouldn't have so many startups and founders fail along the way.
00:01:45
Speaker
I made sure that my wife only learned about that. By the way, this is not likely to work out. So um I want to talk about the book. I want to talk about Startup Economist. I want to talk a little bit about Mustard Hub. I want to talk a little bit about everything. But I think that let's kind of start a little bit at the beginning. You've spent you spent decades doing this. I want everybody to know a little bit about what the Startup Economist is, right? So for somebody meeting you for the first time,
00:02:19
Speaker
What does the title even mean and how did you get started with that in particular? ie I started my career at Yahoo in Silicon Valley.
00:02:30
Speaker
And to make the the long story short, I've been in Austin, Texas for about 16, 17 years. And so for those of you that are familiar with all of the news and hype about startups, that that means I've been in the in two of the most prominent regions of the world for for startups and entrepreneurship ah throughout my career.
00:02:51
Speaker
most Most of my background is in marketing and storytelling, ah social media even. ah And over the years, the we've we've we've experienced a lot of changes in the way we do business, by which I mean the the launch of the internet by and large, taught a lot of businesses that marketing actually just means lead gen and doing SEO and maybe running Google ads or some such Facebook ads.
00:03:22
Speaker
And that's that's not correct. um If you go back before the internet into the 70s and 80s and 90s, of course, marketing meant figuring out who the competition is and where you should put your business and and putting together advertisements, but but actually understanding what should go in those advertisements so that they would work better.
Misconceptions in Marketing
00:03:42
Speaker
ah it was It was doing the research to figure out whether or not starting a business was even a good idea. Well, the internet came along and as the idea of marketing changed in people's minds, I think i think most businesses, ah certainly companies as well, and to a great extent startups, lost sight of the fact that that's that's the intention of it, that that's what it meant.
00:04:05
Speaker
You saw startups emerging. We see startups emerging. We see small businesses today that are just fixated on only getting customers and and yet still struggling because you can't only get customers. You've got to figure out how to compete in the market and what it's going to cost.
00:04:22
Speaker
I have a bit of an economics background. And so over the years of trying to remind people how to do marketing and what it means, um it it it occurred to me that we have a similar problem with cities and regions of the world, ah that the cities um are are very good at saying, hey, come to Dallas, move to St. Louis and attracting companies and and trying to create jobs in in their ecosystem.
00:04:49
Speaker
But they're actually suffering the same from the same problem that they don't know truly. They don't know how to do marketing well. They're they're throwing up ads on Facebook. They're they're putting out press release as though a press release is is relevant anymore. They're not creating content. And it struck me that there might be something to changing the idea from marketing to more economics.
00:05:10
Speaker
and There's an economic impact. it's It's not about customers or sales or growth. It's actually a question of whether or not we want to have a successful venture, a successful full outcome. and And that's an economics question, or at least i think people appreciate that it's an economics question. about the economy.
00:05:26
Speaker
It's about the ah ROI on our investments and and the impact of what we're what we're building and doing. You know, I'm curious how you feel. There's a couple of things that I want to just double click into that a little bit.
00:05:40
Speaker
um I think for a really a really long time, the idea of marketing and advertising, became conflated, right? It was always grouped together. And I think that a lot of folks, I think, started to ah operate from this standpoint that they were almost the same thing. and I think what got lost in marketing is the idea of market development, which is generally that first piece of marketing, understanding who your customer is and why they're even your customer. yeah And you talked about the Internet.
00:06:09
Speaker
And what I think is interesting, what happened, you know, late ninety s early 2000s,
00:06:15
Speaker
when people saw that their direct line to their end customer all of the sudden shrank. they could immediately touch their customers without going through any sort of traditional mechanisms. And so then sort of was born this idea of digital marketing. Why would we not do that?
00:06:32
Speaker
yeah Let's do that. Yeah, absolutely. and without real you realizing that like it's still marketing. you know And so separating this idea of like digital marketing from traditional marketing or marketing and advertising, um I think that it became, in my mind, right, is this confusion when the reality is is that traditionally things had not have not changed in the sense that the the market development is still required no matter what channel or medium you're using, exactly where you're doing it, right? Marketing is marketing, whether it's digital, print, you know, what have you.
00:07:12
Speaker
Right, the for the the the first, that's exactly right. nothing Nothing has changed. Literally nothing has changed. The first question that marketing asks is, Where is our customer? How do we influence them?
00:07:24
Speaker
That's it. And out of that comes all of the different channels or places that you might find someone. It also comes certainly the messaging, but then what also comes from that should be the direction as to what to do as a business. right Do we offer A or B? Do we price C or D? and and And you're right. I think people have lost sight of the fact that that question is equally important of should we be on radio or that billboard on the freeway or Facebook ads? right And yes, the internet came along and everybody raced at, well, obviously we should just do the internet stuff. It tracks better. it's
00:08:00
Speaker
You can do performance-based so we're not spending money at a risk. The thought I'd add to that, and this isn't as true, it isn't as true today, but it might be valuable for everybody to have this perspective about, you're right, the 90s and 2000s.
The Startup Ecosystem and Regional Dynamics
00:08:16
Speaker
What happened you know, appreciate there were a lot of people like me in 1998, 99, working at places like Yahoo. And was 20 years old, 22 years old.
00:08:25
Speaker
and i was twenty years old twenty two years old And as we we moved on from those careers on the inside of the internet and took on roles in marketing in in companies, it became apparent very, very quickly that the VP of marketing, the the CMO, the the board at the company had no idea what we were doing.
00:08:51
Speaker
no grasp of it at all, right? They were used to the agency and we're going to run print ads and so forth. And so that's where digital marketing emerged. Suddenly this 20 year old kid shows up and And frankly, ran circles around them because we're spending billions of dollars and and delivering massive returns that they don't even understand. They couldn't even sit in a board meeting to explain what we were doing, ah which was an incredible experience. I'm i'm i'm sitting with you know executives and investors at 23 years old, teaching them what search is because they don't get it. And and so and so what what happened to a great extent was it it it split.
00:09:29
Speaker
Right. It became digital marketing. And we're just getting back to the fact that actually it's not digital marketing. It's just marketing. Right. And whether you do it online or off, it's it's the same set of questions.
00:09:40
Speaker
So I want to talk about the book. You know, you just you just put it into print a little while ago. Quickly. Yeah. you know, sprung up to the top on on Amazon. And you've said that you wrote the book that you needed to read 20 years ago. Yeah. So give me the core idea that that you wanted on paper and and who did you write it for? Well, like, you know, like I shared, I...
00:10:06
Speaker
I grew up in Michigan when the economy was rough. And then obviously i ended up in Silicon Valley ah when the opposite was true. And then I came to Austin as it as it was transitioning from one experience to to what it is now.
00:10:22
Speaker
And those experiences truly shape who I am and how I think that we shouldn't have in our economy, in in companies,
00:10:35
Speaker
in in our workforce, in in universities. We shouldn't have experiences like Michigan where things aren't going very well ah because we know we know what to do. We just talked about some of it. yeah All of it's not marketing, but we just talked about some of it that that helps answer that. and And obviously, we can't recreate Silicon Valley throughout the world. It's it's got certain characteristics that work really well for for some of the things they do.
00:10:58
Speaker
And so as i ended up in in Austin, i saw I saw those two worlds kind of coming together, that there were things that just weren't working and don't work very well here in Texas. And then there were things that do or can or should.
00:11:11
Speaker
And so the reason I say it was it was something I wish I read 20 years ago is is I've spent my career trying to trying to figure out how to end up where I ended up today, not not realizing 20 years ago that that's what I should be doing.
00:11:28
Speaker
You know, there wasn't there wasn't anybody when we went to college, there wasn't anybody 20 years ago who said, you know what, there should be more people in public policy that understand entrepreneurship. It didn't exist. no You know, there weren't people in in venture capital that said, hey, we should understand how the government matters.
00:11:44
Speaker
it It didn't exist. ah And so all of these challenges that we have with with companies trying to be innovative, with cities trying to be supportive of entrepreneurship, as we transition the workforce, which i I'd love to get involved with with talking about, as we transition the workforce, just because you know now AI is coming along. Is it going to destroy jobs? Actually not. It's probably going to create a ton of jobs, but it's going to it's going to displace jobs. It's going to change a lot of jobs for sure.
00:12:14
Speaker
we we We now can say, look, we need a lot of people who understand that stuff. We need a lot of people who help people, who help who help the government, who help companies understand how to go through these transitions. ah and And this book is about that. I've had people ask me if it's a book about how to do startups. It's actually not.
00:12:30
Speaker
it's It's a book about the ecosystems. It's a book about how to create the... culture and the dynamics of of ah an ecosystem, whether it's a company or or a city or a country that is better suited to whatever is appropriate
Workforce Development Challenges
00:12:47
Speaker
of entrepreneurs and startups in that part of the world. but ah A recurring theme, right, or line in your work is that these ecosystems don't happen at the city level, right? They they happen at the regional for sure level. yeah So I'm curious, like, why why does that distinction even matter so much and and how do or where do they get it wrong?
00:13:07
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's actually a wonderfully critical distinction in in the sense that if you think about, you know, you think about the sector mustards hub hub is is in, HR, if we were to put it broadly, right? HR.
00:13:22
Speaker
um Whether it's ah in innovation in ah HR tech or platforms, or it's recruiting companies and staffing firms, or it's you know the ah HR people at companies, um hiring managers at companies, right? That's all a sector of the economy. That's all a sector and in some context that that that matters. and And so if you were to start your business Say you're in ah HR, you were starting your business and and you're in, i don't know, pick a place. You're in Bentonville, Arkansas. You're going to start your business in Bentonville. And your mindset is we're only going to focus on Bentonville.
00:13:57
Speaker
We're only interested in what's going on right here. That's it. Mm-hmm. um You are hopefully, obviously, you're absolutely blind to competition, which is very aggressively everywhere else.
00:14:10
Speaker
You're blind to opportunities, many of which could be better. You're blind to potential partnerships, which which certainly could be stronger. And now that's not to say, obviously, there's a region for HR. I think it's just a ah a neat way to appreciate that the mistake a lot of cities make is is the opposite. They think actually it is all about right here.
00:14:32
Speaker
<unk>s It's like running a race with blinders on. Yeah. Well, that you know, it's, it's it's you know, we're we're here, I'm here in Austin, Texas, you're here in here Austin, Texas. it's it's It's blinders in the sense that, you know, ah the city of Austin just topped 1 million people, but the metropolitan region of Austin is now 1.6.
00:14:52
Speaker
And a place like Cedar Park, which is right around the corner from us, ah just just saw massive investments from the the aerospace industry. So let's you know talk about aerospace for a second. If you're in aerospace, does that mean you go to Austin?
00:15:07
Speaker
Because it's cool and everybody says you should be in Austin? that's the That's the startup ecosystem or that's the ecosystem? Well, no, actually it's in Cedar Park. And the mistake that's being made is people will say it's Austin or people will say it's say it's just Cedar Park. that it No, in fact, it's a region.
00:15:22
Speaker
ah relevant to to whatever sector it is that you're working with, in that case, aerospace. that you know I'll add this point to to wrap the thought that what's also interesting when you look at comparisons of of startup ecosystems, the data, research about where venture capital is.
00:15:41
Speaker
notice Notice they'll always say ah like Miami versus Silicon Valley. Well, Silicon Valley is four major cities. It's a region.
00:15:52
Speaker
it's it's It's not even San Francisco. It's San Francisco plus one for other places. and And so just the way we talk about sectors, the way we talk about regions, the way we talk about policy, the way we talk about venture capital is broken.
00:16:05
Speaker
Because we'll compare a small town to a region of California. They're not even comparable. We're not even comparing the same thing. ah And and that that sets us up to fail because we we then aren't doing an a proper assessment of what's going on.
The Future of Work and Optionality
00:16:21
Speaker
So... It's no secret that you and I have known each other for a little while, right? You're you're you're with us here at Mustard Hub on our our leadership team. Yeah, we've had fun. A lot of your your recent writing has really turned towards ah workforce and the future of work. And I'm curious what kind of pulled you into that direction. Like what what brings an ecosystems and a venture guy into thinking really hard about um about the future of work and what our workforce looks like and the and the challenges it faces?
00:16:54
Speaker
ah ah Let me give you three things. Besides a good friend a good friend who pulled you. and That's right. Let me give you three things to to to consider. um you know Thing number one is that there are certain sectors of our economy that are horizontals more than verticals. ah yeah you know By which I mean their dependencies on absolutely everything about the future.
00:17:21
Speaker
um One of those is the energy, for example. Energy we have to do something about it. We have to invest in it. We have to we we all use it every day for everything.
00:17:31
Speaker
and you know And so we could talk about energy as a horizontal sector, a sector in a vertical, or we can realize that, no, actually it kind of affects everything in the economy.
00:17:42
Speaker
um Obviously, the workforce is one of those, right? Whether it's whether it's how how high school education works or what we do in universities or training, job training, trade schools, or it's or it's how HR and HR tech works, or it's a regulatory policy about um you know how do we handle employment? How do we handle health insurance, right? This is something that affects absolutely everything, number one.
00:18:10
Speaker
and And from that lens, number two for me is you know i i come from the startup world. I come from very innovative slice of of our economy that is disruptive ah by by design. i mean, that's kind of the point. We're inventing new things to improve upon and and replace the old.
00:18:31
Speaker
What gets most affected by that are our jobs. um You know, we're talking about it in the context of of artificial intelligence today, but we went through the same concerns and issues when social media became big.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yeah. You know, what do we do about all these employees on social media now? Yeah. Right. Same thing happened with the Internet. What what do we do with the Internet? right Oh, my God. And then computers for that before that. um Right. so So two things are a critical path.
00:18:58
Speaker
and then And then the third thing i'll ah' I'll leave you with is actually just you know that that personal passion I have for it. that yeah when i think about When I think about my point about 90% of startups failing and being disappointed about that or or seeing cities and states throughout the country or throughout the world that are struggling and and we know better, we know how to fix that. ah the same i get the same feeling when I think about companies and layoffs you know and and and perhaps going through these massive cycles because they staff up way too much.
00:19:31
Speaker
thinking they need the the people or or they're going to have the demand. And then they they turn around and they have to lay off a ton of people. And that that that disappoints me. that That's like a startup curve. We're launching a bunch of stuff and it's all going to fail.
00:19:42
Speaker
and it And it seems like we can streamline that a lot more effectively so that, you know, and in my personal experience, it's that founders should not fail as much. But when I apply that same theory as that same thesis um to society, all we're really saying is people should not struggle as much in in the work that they do. It shouldn't be so hard to thrive and be in the right job and and and be happy in it yeah and and not have to worry about it it turning on you in six months or a year because things aren't working out.
00:20:11
Speaker
You know, you you write in your book about, and you've even written some articles recently about this idea that that cities don't have a talent problem. They have this this optionality yeah problem. Yeah. And yeah, so um unpack that for me a little bit. What what is the difference? And, you know, why why does a business owner who's trying to you know Who's trying to hire and keep people care about that? yeah and that's a great topic. That's actually very much a perfect example of why I'm passionate about ah what what you all are doing, what what Mustard Hub is doing, and and workforce issues. And it's it's that...
00:20:52
Speaker
you know and in In my work, I come up through cities, I come up through public public policy organizations, and we're constantly talking about workforce development. and And workforce development traditionally, and and even frankly, ah generally means to cities,
00:21:08
Speaker
um Job training, right? So the community college, the university, the high school curriculum and programming ah and and making sure that people are prepared for jobs, number one. And then number two, it means what?
00:21:20
Speaker
It means attracting employers for the most part. It actually doesn't even mean really helping start businesses. It means trying to get a company here, which is why you see so much effort to you know bring Amazon to your to your city, but bring bring some major employer to the city. Because the way a government organization sees it is...
00:21:42
Speaker
Workforce ah business development is difficult, but if we can get Google to open an office here, that's 10,000 jobs. yeah And it's going to look wonderful for us. We we just brought 10,000. We have 10,000 jobs. and and it And it struck me as kind of amusing to to then appreciate that actually that's not even job creation. That's just job transfer.
00:22:01
Speaker
right What you're doing is you're moving those jobs from somewhere else to to your city. right It's a badge that that that some city official can wear, right? But you haven't necessarily like built something from nothing. You've just displaced it from somewhere else. Yep. and And it doesn't mean we can't also create jobs. It's that's just not very easy for a city or a government to create jobs. It's done not the work that they do. ah You have to create the circumstances, but the book, hence the book. You got to create these circumstances that enable people to start things that create jobs. So what's optionality? Well, ah optionality is a, is a,
00:22:34
Speaker
very new idea that that I cover heavily in the book. It's a new idea only in the sense that a lot of us have, have talked about it generically. Like we're aware of it. We know it's a thing, but it was never, it was never named.
00:22:47
Speaker
And what it means is that, um, Whether or not you have a healthy job economy in your region world actually depends on not whether or not I have a job, but whether or not I can easily go get two or three different jobs doing something applicable.
00:23:06
Speaker
Optionality, I have options. And so it applies itlies in in two meaningful ways. right Yes, if you are a business, if you are a company, and you're trying to employ people, appreciate that responsibility.
00:23:17
Speaker
a primary decision that people make when they move to to work for you or or they take your job is in fact, what am I going to do if I get laid off?
00:23:28
Speaker
it it It is, right? If I'm going to move, got to know that I'm going to be in a safe place where I can do something else. and And how that applied to to my past and my world is that we discovered the same thing is true of entrepreneurship, that that cities, the reason people don't start businesses is or the people the the reason people don't start startups, entrepreneurs don't startups don't start startups, is in fact primarily about optionality, not capital.
00:23:56
Speaker
and And it's because most businesses do fail. Most startups definitely fail, which means what? In order for me to try, in order for people in your community to try to start something, I have to know that I'm going to be able to safely fall back on something else. Yeah. Where's that safety? successfully into that workforce. Yep. Optionality.
00:24:16
Speaker
Okay. Now here's here's the trick to it. It it actually is easy to to to develop an ecosystem in this direction. The mistake that cities continue to make is they just chase the big tech company or they chase a big employer as though having jobs is what creates optionality. And that's that's actually not correct.
00:24:36
Speaker
A person can work in a certain place, right? A certain sector. let's Let's pick a different sector. Say I work in the music business. you know If you attract Google to the city, that doesn't create optionality for me.
00:24:50
Speaker
I work in the music business. Even if I work in music tech, I'm not going to go to Google next. right I actually work in the music business. true right so Optionality is is a simple matter of a city understanding their sector strengths and and focusing on those, attract those kinds of companies, support those kinds of businesses. And businesses and companies, employers, you can do the same thing, right? it's It's figuring out how to establish yourself in your ecosystem amongst the things that are loosely similar so that you create a a community, you create an ecosystem where certainly you might be competing with each other, but you're also collaborating because you're doing some similar things and it and enables you to draw talent
00:25:32
Speaker
into the ecosystem, into the community, because people want to work in that sector. And if you're celebrating the fact that you're a part of that community, you have jobs in that sector, and there are other opportunities in that sector there, it's it gets a lot easier to hire people.
00:25:47
Speaker
By the way, too, it gets a lot easier to raise capital because capital thinks the same way. Capital wants to go where there's options, where there's experience and strength from people. I had a really, really interesting fireside chat recently with with Steve Glenn, community builder out of Milwaukee. Yeah. Who I know that you know. Yeah, we just covered We touched on this, ah similar a similar idea, but little bit more of a, you know, tenn well, tangentially related in that the business owners and the startup founders, you know, who take that risk, who take that chance, who spend that time, know,
00:26:26
Speaker
often find it difficult to reenter the workforce for also another reason, right? The fact that their skills mapping to any particular job, right, isn't necessarily one-to-one, right? Somebody who's worked for themselves or somebody who's been a startup founder, A, has to defend against that stigma, right? us a yeah of ah Of a business that maybe didn't succeed. Right. But also, you know,
00:26:52
Speaker
There's a notion that I think that the business owners or or really a startup founder over time becomes unhirable, you know, and and and frankly, and I pointed this out to him. I'm a good example of that myself. I've been a serial entrepreneur for 20, 25
Aligning Skills with Jobs
00:27:11
Speaker
years. I started my first company 25 years ago.
00:27:14
Speaker
i built it up. You know, I i built a roll up portfolio. I had another startup. I've actually in my adult life post college, my, my, my, my education background is in music.
00:27:27
Speaker
Clever choice there for your example. Cheers. But my, my background was in music, right? Not the first thing people think of when they're, when when when they're listing their, their, ah you know, job um requirements.
00:27:42
Speaker
I've gone and I've started businesses, but I've never had that employer who can speak for me. So, I have a resume of things that I've done.
00:27:52
Speaker
the same time, I don't have that employer who can speak to my skills and I've never been integrated into corporate America in the traditional way. So there's this notion that a lot of folks in my shoes then all of a sudden become unhirable for a lot of reasons. yeah we We touched on that a lot and I felt like it was a fascinating conversation. and I'm kind of curious to hear your thoughts on that. i think I think we live in a wonderful era of innovation about about employment because we're, yeah this couldn't have happened 20 years ago. What I mean by living in the wonderful area era is is we can we could do this now. that
00:28:35
Speaker
That we've learned that i think I think part of the problem is we've learned we've made the mistake of of people building careers based on job titles, based on job roles.
00:28:48
Speaker
And you know what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to move up. You're supposed to move to the next one. um and it And it's a mistake because that's that's actually not a decent representation of what a person is capable of.
00:29:01
Speaker
and And I use the word capable carefully because you you correctly, I think, use the word skills. Well, skills are trainable. I can learn new skills. it's It's not a question of skills. it's not It's not that I was a VP of marketing and and therefore I can be a VP of marketing anywhere because that's not true.
00:29:19
Speaker
right I'm i'm a um a certain kind of marketing person. You might be a certain kind of product person. right and And you can't just pick up and and go wherever else. and and And so because of that past,
00:29:33
Speaker
I think you're right because of that past. Unfortunately, we build resumes. We build job roles. We have ah jobs with employers that are structured that way. They are. I have this role. I'm learning these skills. I do these skills. That's it. Or I came up through this way and these are the these responsibilities that I owned yeah through these organizations. For sure. And and and therefore, what happens, you know, i' I've had the same startup experience, but but we can apply this to to people in general, right? What happens then when those people are let go? What happens when the startup fails? Well, I'm in this box then of that's my skill. That's what I do. And that's it. i and And now you have a stigma that says, and it didn't work out very well. exactly and
00:30:17
Speaker
But the thing is, that's Maybe it didn't work out very well because the business was junk. It has nothing to do with the person. And and so my point that we're in a we're in a really exciting time to figure this out is one, we've we've learned that that's all wrong.
00:30:29
Speaker
We learned that we've been doing it wrong. But instead, it's it's that we've also learned... um ah personality types, are um psychology is a massive factor to to appreciate and consider.
00:30:42
Speaker
um Age, it frankly, is a factor, right? When somebody's quite a bit older, they're there's certainly capable of ah of a different variety of things. um but But then also, it's it's more so like understanding ah the kind of work they're doing, right?
00:30:57
Speaker
and the impact that they had on on the work. not Not whether or not they were capable with the skill or it was good or bad, right? But the impact. Were were they a valuable contributor? Was it effective? were were they were were Was the employer thrilled with their work, right? these These signals are signals that we can get at now that correlate with Again, psychology, does ah does a person have grit?
00:31:22
Speaker
Right. And tenacity and perseverance, that's a wonderful asset. Yeah. And it's not the same as, ah or is the person highly risk tolerant and they like to to try a bunch of different things and mess around, right? um That's a wonderful skill set or or skill set. That's a wonderful trait.
00:31:40
Speaker
um But they're two different kinds of people, right? and And someone may or may not work out in a job, because of of which type of person they are. and And yet that that type of person may be perfectly appropriate for a completely different job. Historically, we've not looked at that at all. That's been the problem. And that was and now we can. That was part of that conversation where the really mapping that individual into the next role becomes an incredibly difficult, it's it's it's a difficult it's a difficult concept because there's no there's no easy way to do it. Like I said, there was never, there's never any, there's not,
00:32:18
Speaker
There's no easy visibility right into where might that person be uber successful because a lot of those lot of those soft skills that you're talking about, right they don't make it into a resume. or there isn't you know In my particular case, there isn't an employer who's going to go and comment on those things to my next person.
00:32:36
Speaker
opportunity Yeah. Yeah. you know I can't help but wonder, maybe I'm curious what you think for changing our conversation. I can't help but wonder if perhaps the ah recruiting and hiring and, ah yeah you know, the the firm placement firms, I can't help but wonder if we can't challenge them.
00:32:57
Speaker
to figure out how to solve this more meaningfully because as an example of what we're talking about, you know, I'll still get a ah ton of emails from recruiters or LinkedIn messages from recruiters saying, Hey, we got this, we got this perfect VP marketing job and here's here's what it pays and here's where it is.
00:33:17
Speaker
And you know, and and and I'll read it and it's in, you know, it's in the the the finance sector. It's in, it's in banking. Right. And I look at that and I think, You're just fishing, right?
Role of Data in Workforce Management
00:33:29
Speaker
What what about me in in any way whatsoever says I'm appropriate to a marketing job in finance, right? right That...
00:33:38
Speaker
Now, i'm not I'm not saying it's their fault, right? I'm pointing out, I wonder yeah i wonder if that that sector is where some more innovation, some more data, some more intelligence would would be incredible to see if if the people who are trying to place people yeah can't figure out how to do so better than the way it's been done. Yeah, and and i would i would argue it can.
00:34:03
Speaker
um i would actually argue that it can. I mean, there is... There are so many like incredibly good and powerful assessments that can be taken, for example, just as an example, right? To to tell you a little bit about your, whether it's your personality, whether it's your work type, you know, whether it's skills finders, skill finders, um,
00:34:31
Speaker
Colby, personality tests, all of these things measure people's skills, right? And and aptitude in in a different way. The problem is is, the way that I see it, is that all of this information is fragmented.
00:34:50
Speaker
And even even whoever created these tests doesn't even have a database of everything. And so it it becomes nearly impossible right for an individual to sort of take their sort of own their own profile.
00:35:06
Speaker
right You go and apply for for jobs and and and there's profiling that happens, right and the organization doing it then owns these records and then gonna determine whether or not you're a good fit. And they sit there. And they sit there. They stay there. That's a guy. sit you right they They stay there. right You go to the next place, they do the exact same thing. you go to the next place, they do the exact same thing. Then I get hired somebody, I work for a little while, maybe I leave that place and I'm ready to do it all over again. The same this outdated and equated process. The thing. Fill out this resume. fill Or send us your resume so it can go in the database. So it starts all over again. You have your resume, you have your experience, and then...
00:35:46
Speaker
and then that place that you apply at is going to have their process with their tests that they like to take so that they own that data that you do.
00:35:56
Speaker
And so you end up losing this ability to a own your profile and for others to sort of access it in in some way. i don't know. We might have just created a really incredible startup idea here for somebody. go code mailil I mean, they right. Your, your resume is portable. it It seems very logical to me, right? Your resume is portable. There's a lot of, there's a lot of talk in, in, in, in government about the fact that a lot more about people needs to be portable, right? We see that in healthcare. care
00:36:27
Speaker
I don't make your healthcare care records private and, and frankly portable. Cause why do I have to start over with a doctor? It's the same notion. We just need something better than a resume that gives us insight to who people are. that's right And, and then, and then,
00:36:40
Speaker
Arguably, you want something on the base. You want those larger data sets. That's what I'm thinking. I don't know. Maybe the the recruiting or or the workforce sector of the economy can figure it out. that That you then want the data set on the back end to validate that it works. right That these people are actually better fits and and stuck around longer or were better employees or what have you. that that That's the startup, right? To me, can we...
00:37:05
Speaker
can can we Are we struggling in the workforce because people are unskilled or are we struggling in the workforce because we're putting people in the wrong jobs based on what they're actually ideal for? I would argue it's in fact the latter.
00:37:19
Speaker
It's not underskilled. It's not lack of job training. Obviously our high schools and universities are doing well enough that they can get people into the workforce meaningfully. I think it's that we're mismatching people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, if we stay here long enough, I'm sure we could probably solve all the workforce problems.
00:37:34
Speaker
But let's talk about the future of work. There's a lot of things changing for businesses that employ people, right? And and and beyond the things that are just headlines.
Regulatory and Infrastructure Challenges
00:37:45
Speaker
You even mentioned one right now, right? This this idea of of portability, right? um Benefits portability. And we can touch on that in a second. But I'm curious where you see leaders most misreading their people right now, right? What are they getting wrong about what's happening inside their workforce, right? How are things changing so much with technology, with policy, right? And and how is that impacting the future of work, right? I know it's a big theme that we like to talk about are are people problems. So, I mean, this seems particularly relevant to discuss right now.
00:38:20
Speaker
um But a lot of those people problems are really just visibility problems, arguably.
00:38:30
Speaker
ah Yeah, they're they're visiting their're visibility problems for sure. don't think arguably. Sure they are. ah A company is layers. Right. And they can't fix what they can't see. And they're going to be layers. Right. But they've tried to. Right. They've tried to flatten companies.
00:38:46
Speaker
and And so you're right. It's it's still a visibility issue. ah But i wonder I wonder if it's not a visibility issue in the sense of asking, ah like we were just talking about, asking the wrong questions.
00:38:56
Speaker
You know, does, does my employee look happy? Are they getting the job done? Great. Everything's fine. Yeah. We'll talk to them again in six months. And and and then the annual, um you know, it's, it's, it's that, it's that we lack visibility into ah what, what that fit and what that relationship actually looks like.
00:39:15
Speaker
But, but is that the, is that my answer to question? You know, I, I, I think, I think ah another substantial challenge, um,
00:39:27
Speaker
in in the workforce ah is it is actually just ah more a question of of the fact that people have different expectations of um and and I'm going to use this word, which I know means something means something in in HR in particular, but I mean it in a much broader context, and that's compensation.
00:39:52
Speaker
ah That people actually have very different needs and expectations of compensation. um you know someone Someone might need a lot of salary. Someone else, and and we see this a lot, this is what drives startups. Someone else might actually just need healthcare. care And it also it also might be generational, right? I mean, the 20-year-old entering the workforce is going to need something different from the 40-year-old with two kids versus the 65-year-old who's about to retire. Exactly exactly that, right? you know and And yet benefits packages are typically a one-size-fits-all thing. Here's your health insurance. Pick one of these three options. Here's your retirement. Here's your water. All right. so So if I can, let's let's talk about health health care or health insurance just for for one second because it's a it's a be in my bonnet or whatever you want. to call it my family works in healthcare. I'm i'm the odd one out.
00:40:39
Speaker
and And in the United States, as we had all this transition to to universal care or more Medicare, broadly applicable Medicare, what what bothers a lot of us who work in regulation and policy and and are familiar with healthcare, care what bothers us is is in fact that ah what's being considered and what's being done actually has nothing to do with with why it works why it even exists.
00:41:03
Speaker
ah And so what's put forth are are proposals and ideas to fix healthcare and health insurance based on what sounds good to the public. Yeah, well, there's a difference between but but yeah but between good policy, right, and politics. but and Right, exactly.
00:41:19
Speaker
and And yet it doesn't even recognize why it's the way that it's that that way today. ah Most people don't know this. are the The US healthcare system was developed post-World War two ah as a way to ensure that companies could employ people without having to pay them more.
00:41:39
Speaker
As a lot of men came back into the workforce and a lot of women transitioned out. It was a way to ensure that the economy would keep humming along by saying, the government saying, here's what we're going to do, companies, employers. Here's what we're going to do we're going to We're going to put together this thing called health insurance.
00:41:57
Speaker
And we're going to enable you to massively deduct the cost of the health insurance so that you can give it to employees, and give health insurance to employees so that they can have health care.
00:42:09
Speaker
It was effectively a benefit and we call it a benefit, but it was actually done for the purpose of ensuring that companies have a reason to employ people more meaningfully without having to pay for them.
00:42:21
Speaker
ah Companies don't want that to go away. Call it universal insurance, call it universal care, call it ACA, Affordable Care Act, call Medicaid, doesn't matter. Companies don't want that to go away.
00:42:31
Speaker
it's a It's a tax incentive benefit to to hire people. Of course, they want to keep it exactly the way it is. ah Until that changes, we we can't break much of anything. Why? Because the insurance industry also wants to keep it that way. We have money coming through insurance in order to give people health care.
00:42:51
Speaker
so So back to back to to my point or our discussion of what is compensation means? Well, yeah know we're we're not appreciating the fact that people actually have very different health care needs, too.
00:43:05
Speaker
And, you know, maybe I have cancer. And I don't need or want to tell my employer about that, but I do actually have substantial healthcare needs. And and therefore, exceptional healthcare coverage is a lot more meaningful to me than a salary.
00:43:20
Speaker
A lot, right? yeah right So were so it it ties kind of nicely what you're saying about visibility, but I think what the biggest problem is in the future of work is is my my lens on things, right? It's that our our regulatory environment is generally broken.
00:43:37
Speaker
our Our compliance considerations or compliance requirements are often... odd and and unnecessary and they're in place for reasons that don't actually really need to exist. um Back to healthcare, for example, we talk about healthcare privacy ad nauseum as though it's this massive security and compliance issue. When you ask the average person on the street, they don't care about whether or not their healthcare care records get out in public. Nobody cares. Like, yeah, I've got sick stuff. I've got issues. So do you. Everybody does. yeah right So there's a lot of regulations we put in place.
00:44:08
Speaker
and And I can't help but wonder if your point about visibility into the actual workforce needs ties very nicely to, okay, what what macroeconomically, what politically do we fix based on what people are actually saying matters?
00:44:24
Speaker
And I think we could. We could, I think. And then and then you run into sort of this next, I guess the next stage in the problem is, okay, if there's consensus that something needs to change,
00:44:37
Speaker
There's no ah there's no mechanism in place to actually facilitate this in a way that wouldn't instantly break every system out there, right? right how do the How does the infrastructure then need to change in order to support that?
00:44:59
Speaker
so i'm yeah I'm going to give you a... ah ah public affairs perspective to to just give us something interesting to talk about and and why people like me do that work. Perhaps you've all noticed in government and politics, um everyone's always proposing solutions.
00:45:19
Speaker
I've got the answer. And when- That's what gets people elected. That's why I'm pointing it out. That's what gets you elected. and and and And conveniently,
00:45:31
Speaker
Coincidentally, ah when when it doesn't work out, what do what do people get to do? They get to say the opposition prevented it. yeah They get to say voters didn't approve the bond. right They get to say, well, we have some consultants who decided we should go a different direction. right So I put forth the solution as a politician.
00:45:53
Speaker
And when it doesn't work out, it's not my It's everybody fault. everybody else's fault. um and And it's ah it's it's very important to appreciate that the reason that happens is people like hearing solutions. They don't they don't like hearing what doesn't work um because that causes disagreement.
00:46:11
Speaker
And the reason it matters is actually what you just touched on is something like infrastructure. um How do we change things? How do we solve things? When you work in public policy or or or you just work in government relations, what we actually do is we we flip those narratives a lot.
00:46:25
Speaker
right And what I mean by flip the narratives is we create for government, we create at the government or or're at the politicians, we create a risk.
00:46:36
Speaker
We create a threat. right If you don't fix this, here's what's going to happen. If you don't move this forward, here's what's going to happen. um because we've we've learned that the public may not care about those risks.
00:46:52
Speaker
and I don't care if healthcare care is not is is too expensive. I have insurance. So you can see how we can't fix healthcare. care yeah But instead, if we can get at the the policymaker to say, here's what's going to happen if we don't fix healthcare. care Here's what's going to happen if you don't follow through on these campaign promises. It's not good.
00:47:12
Speaker
yeah Then you put the people in place who make the decisions in a position where they'll actually make some changes. So it's similar in this regard.
Flexibility and Security in the Gig Economy
00:47:21
Speaker
Let's talk about infrastructure for a second, right? Yeah.
00:47:23
Speaker
um Infrastructure. So I've written about infrastructure. I wrote about an infrastructure on on Mustard Hub. So that's something we could share. But a lot of people have talked about it too. Most of us think about infrastructure as as like roads and and utilities. And it's kind of important to start with that appreciation because infrastructure you get my analogy that why won't your city build roads?
00:47:44
Speaker
Why won't your city put more roads in place? It helps facilitate transportation. It helps do all of that. Right. It all sounds good. Right. And, and the, and the policymaker, the mayor is saying, we're going to, we're going to fix transportation. We're going put more stuff in. We're going put rail, right?
00:47:58
Speaker
They're all positive supportive kind of things. And, and people by and large want the solution. Right. And then they argue about how bad things are. Traffic really sucks. yeah I want the solution.
00:48:11
Speaker
yeah but But nobody's actually genuinely talking about a real problem that emerges. you see what i mean? that That they sell the promise of of the fix, but nothing actually ever gets done meaningfully on the infrastructure because then along comes the $100 million dollar bond. And voters like, eh. don't want to pay for it. I don't need that. Yeah.
00:48:32
Speaker
and And my roads are fine. i don't need that. Right? And so we're not actually addressing these challenges in in the appropriate way. And the appropriate way is, in fact, what?
00:48:43
Speaker
Well, when it comes to roads and infrastructure, interestingly, there's a very meaningful workforce development consideration. And that workforce development consideration is similar to what we talked about with optionality. It's literally mobility.
00:48:55
Speaker
And it's that if I live on the west side of town, well, that limits where I can work. That's it. And if you're developing a lot of jobs or the new employer opens up on the east side of town, I can't do it. I can't help that. i can't get a job there. I can't work there. the The company over there can't employ people on the west side. Why? Because those we're just not going to go over there.
00:49:20
Speaker
it's There's a cost involved in mobility. So we create this pain point for the politician. We create this pain point for the lawmaker. That says it's it's not about your proposed solution.
00:49:31
Speaker
It's about the fact that if you don't fix this, your workforce is going to struggle, that your city is going to become more unaffordable. An urban center of a city actually becomes unaffordable because there's no mobility. If people can't get in and out, that becomes a very popular place to be, which makes it expensive. right right That's what happens.
00:49:50
Speaker
So In workforce development, similar notion. in in in In innovation, similar notion. Can we elevate the idea of what infrastructure is? Can we elevate the idea of what infrastructure is? That that infrastructure is also, in fact, a CRM, a customer relationship management platform. That's actually infrastructure, right? In the sense that if you have a company, of a business, well, your business isn't in the business of CRMing.
00:50:19
Speaker
but Right. But you need this you need this infrastructure to do the the business better. That's right. Right. Just like you need roads. The most valuable companies aren't necessarily building you know the one thing for those individuals, but rather the grounds upon which those companies can stand on and can be built on. Perfect. Eloquently. Can operate on. Yeah.
00:50:41
Speaker
they're they're typically behind the scenes, right? it's to say in and And using the analogy of the roads and utilities, you know, I'm not building a pathway for, you know, John Smith, who lives on the West side to get to the East side, I'm building a system of roads and bridges and utilities so that the community has mobility between those places. And that all the companies who run the ride sharing, right. Or who sell cars that get need to be driven on a road. yep Right.
00:51:11
Speaker
All can use those things. yeah Right. and And all can utilize it sort of in in the greater community. And I think that, ah There's a there's a ah straight line comparison, I think, to software.
00:51:25
Speaker
There's a straight line comparison to software, perhaps in the in the in the sense of, here's an example keeping the the thread together in our conversation, in the thread of how do we actually fix healthcare in in employers and and and in companies?
00:51:40
Speaker
Well, it's, it's, you know, it's that idea of maybe portability of your resume, portability of your profile. ah Why don't, why don't people have portable insurance or or heck with insurance, portable healthcare, right? Where, where I may be at an employer, why can't I, why can't I go get a job somewhere else and just maintain everything that I need to to provide for myself and care for myself? That that's an infrastructure problem.
00:52:06
Speaker
challenge It's an infrastructure opportunity. and And notice the mistake that we're making in society is saying, we're going to provide these solutions to fix that problem. No, what we should be doing is saying, hang on a second.
Predictive Analytics in HR
00:52:18
Speaker
This is a massive problem and I'm angry you're not fixing it. What is that problem? Well, the problem is I work for this big employer. ah their healthcare options aren't right for me. yeah Nobody's listening or nobody's aware to your point. yeah um Nobody's considering the, the, the sector or the region or the personality or the person kind of to my point, nobody's considering whether or not we could put something else in place. But then more importantly, nobody's, nobody's saying if we don't fix this, right it's not actually about unaffordable healthcare.
00:52:50
Speaker
It's actually about if we don't fix this, what happens when that person loses their job? Right. Right. They're just, they're, Oh my God. Yeah. And to say, we have to fix that. How dare you? To take it even another step further.
00:53:02
Speaker
Think about the volume right of the workforce that is um employed on a part-time basis, multiple part-time jobs sure or the percentage of individuals. you know What's the statistic in the next five years, 60, 70% are going to be involved in the gig economy in some capacity. So if you're a fractional um you know employee ah you know or or worker, if you're a contractor,
00:53:27
Speaker
If you are part time and you have multiple jobs, why can't you carry your earned value regardless of where you are or who you work with? Yeah. Yeah. And and i had even our i've I've made this argument about compliance and and regulatory issues and the fact that a massive employer can absorb the costs of that an individual can't. If I'm a freelancer, sort if I'm doing a startup, yeah well, the today the company gets these benefits, tax benefits and has a regulatory framework in which they're able to provide that to employees.
00:54:04
Speaker
But now I'm on my own. i don't I don't have the means to take on and provide those benefits to myself. um So i'm I'm at a severe disadvantage just trying to get something started. um that's another That's another great example of pointing out the pain. You're right. We're increasingly going to be freelance. We're increasingly but going to be get gig economy. It's not what's the solution to that. It's how dare we not fix it.
00:54:29
Speaker
This is a massive problem and somebody needs to do something about it. And what's interesting and I think what what kind of hits close to home when i when you talk about compliance, when you talk about all of these things,
00:54:42
Speaker
nearly all of the platforms that these businesses are running on are systems of record, right? They're transactional by nature and they capture events that have happened. We learn about things after the fact, after it's become a separation event, after i've you know I lost my healthcare, right? yeah yeah After all of these things happened, it it seems to introduce this limitation, right? Running a workforce on these systems tell us only about things after they've already happened. like i I'd even push back on you. It it doesn't seem to. It it unquestionably does.
00:55:23
Speaker
no Mine is a little softer. No, it's... a big guys you're right But yeah, you're right. It's almost... it's i think I think one of the problems to push on people, right? if If you're a business owner, if you're in a company, if you're an investor, if you're on a board,
00:55:39
Speaker
but it It is critical that you push the fact that, unequivocal fact, that what we have today is not not really what you'd call business intelligence. What we have today is really analytics and data.
00:55:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. right we we do We have the data points that that things took place. And it's and and the the the problem to push on is the fact that there's no reason we don't have insurance ah intelligence.
00:56:05
Speaker
There's no reason we can't have more. um We've covered we covered what's called predictive analytics quite a few times, right? That predictive analytics recognizes the fact that we can certainly use machine learning We can use to some extent AI, some extent AI, and we can actually sort of predict behaviors and predict things. um That companies, business owners, HR tech platforms, I think i think what what we're sort of touching on is what what we what we do today is, is is in in my world, the analogy I've used is hopefully you're all putting in place Google Analytics for your website.
00:56:41
Speaker
Well, Google Analytics is also just a snapshot of what has taken place. Right. And you better have it. Yeah. You absolutely should have you don't have it, come on. Shame on you. Turn on. It's free. um it's it's It's free, but think about it. It's free because why is it free? Because the snapshot in time is worth what? yeah I mean, it's it's helpful record. yeah But it's not what I actually need. It's not what I actually value. right What I want is those analytics to say, here's what's going to happen yeah if you. If I did this, what can I expect? Right. And and the point is, that's absolutely possible. It's absolutely and it's emerging. And I think that's why we can come at these these solutions in the workforce. that we're We're at the right stage and in in humanity where we have the research, we have the data, we have we have past to work with where we can say, this thing is actually possible. Why aren't we doing it more? Yeah.
00:57:27
Speaker
um and ah And to be semantic, you know machine learning is ah is actually a discipline of AI. So we can definitely use AI. yeah I can't do it. So it's one of those words where I'm like, you know that machine learning word? and It matters. that's it And that's our big bet, I think. you know Mustard Hub, really capturing...
00:57:51
Speaker
all of this transactional data, this historical data, and where available, this behavioral signals, right, that exist upstream of these events, right?
00:58:02
Speaker
And turning it into this predictive insight before these things surface as turnover or some missed number in ah in ah in a system of record.
00:58:16
Speaker
so So with your venture lens, you know, in your and your and your CMO hat on, like give me a clear, crisp soundbite of why that upstream layer Why that's where the value sits. Why having infrastructure so that platforms can surface this, this upstream layer is the most, you just said it yourself about Google analytics, right? It's free. Why? Because it's a snapshot of of things that have already happened. So why does the value sit at the upstream layer and why is it so hard for these transactional platforms to even do it themselves?
00:58:58
Speaker
I mean, that that part to me is a little a little obvious. I mean, retrofitting is... All right. Kind of the summary is... Let me stick with the web example because that's my world. That... You know, something like like WordPress or Squarespace, a lot of small businesses, you're you're using Squarespace or Wix, right? To to get something off the ground. Are those still up? That's, are they are they actually still around? I think so. I think so. um That, you know, those those are also nearly free. Why? Because it's it's enabling you to put to put something in place that is a snapshot of what you're doing right now, bre right? I'm simplifying, but hopefully that kind of makes sense.
00:59:36
Speaker
and And then we talked about CRMs, right? And everybody wants a CRM. um HubSpot is also essentially free. Unless you need a massive version of HubSpot, it's essentially free. Well, Salesforce is having this conversation about infrastructure too.
00:59:49
Speaker
Infrastructure as a service. Because I love how Salesforce actually kind of realized, no, the real value in a CRM, a customer database, is not the CRM itself, which is the snapshot.
01:00:02
Speaker
But it's where those two might exist together, right? why isn't Why isn't there infrastructure about customers that actually exists in my website infrastructure?
01:00:13
Speaker
ah That in my WordPress, that all these visitors, all these people are on my website. They're they're calling me from there. They're filling out my forms. there this infrastructure concept is is taking the old world of a static CRM and putting it in the platforms and the tools that that you all need and you use as this this layer in between that says, no, in fact, all of this data should be in what you use in a more meaningful way, right? That's that's infrastructure.
01:00:42
Speaker
and it's And it's not hard to do. and And your point about machine learning and and being able to measure the behavior of people, that The same analogy is point of fact about HR tech.
01:01:00
Speaker
that's That's why I'm excited and in writing about what what we've been doing and and and what others in the in the industry are doing. The same fact is true that, yes, I need an HR management solution. I need a ah you know human capital management platform for my company. Yes, I do.
01:01:15
Speaker
ah That's like WordPress, right? That's the data set that I need to have to manage what I've got going on. But then at the same time, I've got a hiring platform and I've got an applicant tracking platform. And that's all those those upstream other data sets. And they're just data sets. And why isn't all of that data, in fact, available in what I actually use to keep an eye on whether or not my employees are happy and and to help them? And you can. It's the same concept. You put the infrastructure in place in between them.
01:01:47
Speaker
this Stitch it together. That stitches it together and spits in the machine learning or the AI. right Spits in that and actual intelligence, not data, right that helps a business, helps a company understand whether or not they are hiring the right people to get back to where we started the conversation, whether or not they are doing the right things
Investments in Workforce Solutions
01:02:06
Speaker
for the people. I'll take it a step further. And I think that what happens is when you have, even when you have smaller, not necessarily even smaller, actually, anybody any platform in HR, HR adjacent world, or even vertical SaaS, and you're you're taking your data, as much data as you have that might be you know siloed in in countless modules that you have between learning and development or or scheduling, time and attendance, demographics and tenure, any of these things, you're still
01:02:43
Speaker
no matter how big your platform is, you're still working with a limited data set that's only specific to your platform and your customers. And there's no cross network data lakes that help you actually calibrate your models to real workforce realities. not just the weaknesses that you might have on your system, which then become amplified if that's the only data set you're working with. For sure.
01:03:09
Speaker
but But besides which, you know, it was going through my brain, that was is still the kind of the the, it with your customer data though. you don't just go build that. right well there's there's There's a company that already does it exceptionally well. so yeah It's similar in that sense that that that you're right. If you're going to create a data lake that ah that that connects all of the different human resource related things you use, it doesn't make any sense for any one of those things or you to go and build it because...
01:03:40
Speaker
People are already building it People are already making those connections. They're already providing the the behavioral intelligence. They're already providing other forms of of insight that that tie it all together to give you that. Right. Right. And it should just be plugged in. And those platforms should be focusing on their core business and doing what they do exceptionally well rather than having to take their entire engineering team. Right.
01:04:03
Speaker
their eyes off the ball and start doing something else where they don't necessarily have, you know, the expertise or frankly the bandwidth, right? Because they're, they need to deal with the pants on fire thing that's happening right now for their customers and not this other piece of infrastructure like you said that already exists. yeah So, so you think about, you think about capital, you think about ecosystems for a living. This is what you do.
01:04:25
Speaker
Where's the smart money going in workforce and and people technology, right? Tell, you know tell the startup founders, tell the business owners where this is all headed. And and and i'll and I'll add as a qualifier to this, right, as as more of this work gets sort of mediated by software and a i what do you think becomes more important about how leaders are are treating the humans on?
01:04:54
Speaker
Well, actually, you're... last question was going to be my number three about where the capital is going. So maybe that's part of the answer. So where you know where's the capital where's the the enthusiasm and and attention going in in workforce in general? um Number one is right people, right place.
01:05:14
Speaker
Hands down, right? Start at the top. ah the the the um the The number of people you see ranting about how you know the job board is is ridiculous or job listings are fake and and you know i have to upload my resume and fill out your your form and and do an interview and and do a video. And it's... it's it's just astounding and it's all trying to solve what we talked about a little bit are the right people in the right places.
01:05:42
Speaker
And, and we, again, we know it's not skill yeah or role or experience. It's something else. So that's a, that's a huge space ah that everyone wants to support because we just, we know that people aren't generally in the right places, solves a whole host of problems.
01:05:58
Speaker
um Number, number two, it it seems to be, uh, yeah i I'm going to use this word, but i'm I'm not sure it's the appropriate word for for everyone to to appreciate because i' I don't literally mean it in this context. But it seems to sort of be education and and training, right? it's It's the workforce development point that I was making that you know part of workforce development is how do we fix community college? Are we teaching the right things? um we you know we know we know that we don't know what public school curriculum should be.
01:06:35
Speaker
I don't think anybody can genuinely fairly say that, but we know it's not the best it can be. We know it's missing a lot of things, right? So it's that it's, it's, can we, can we, everyone is investing in changing education in any number of different ways to ensure that people are in the workforce in the most meaningful way. That's certainly number two.
01:06:56
Speaker
And then number three ah is, is, is to your last question. Coincidentally, it's, it's pushing into all of this, this appreciation of the fact that there's a ton of psychological research.
01:07:10
Speaker
We have the ability to do predictive analytics. we we We have personality assessments that we know work. We have all of this this it It's still data. We have that all of this data that says we know how to better care for employees. We know that job satisfaction is is low. We know that it's not all about compensation. It's about a whole bunch of other different considerations. We know these things. ah And so it's I think it's pushing into ah any any sort of
01:07:44
Speaker
yeah it's ah it's a word we've used with mustard any sort of behavioral workforce intelligence, right? which Which I think isn't explicitly intelligence about your workforce. It's it's intelligence about workforce behavior, yeah right? any Any insight that we can get into how how we can improve the environment of working.
01:08:08
Speaker
um We know we need to. We know we have the data about it. we know we have... better direction. it's so It's kind of like the education yeah context. we We know it's not right. We know we can do it. We know we have data about what's better.
Leadership Advice on Workforce Development
01:08:22
Speaker
and And so that's the third point. So there's a lot of investment. There's a lot of demand for anybody who's fixing that, who's addressing it, who's putting in intelligence in place, putting infrastructure in place ah to enable small business, even startups, enable startups, small businesses, companies, and and the full stack, ah HR tech,
01:08:42
Speaker
recruiting processes yeah to be much more meaningful than just applying data upon which then they have to make decisions. It's it's do it better. We know we can.
01:08:54
Speaker
love it. so I want you to wrap this up. Leader comes to you. Startup founder comes to you. ah You know, city official, right? Sure. we some Some regional or or state elected official comes to you and says, I want to build a workforce, I want to build a workplace that can actually see the people clearly before things break, or act before something happens.
01:09:22
Speaker
What's that single most important piece of advice? You're on an elevator with them. You have a second right before you get to the top floor and the doors open and they walk right out of there. What is it that you tell them? i am I have a reputation for this amongst yeah in in the startup ecosystem, in the startup community.
01:09:38
Speaker
And in fact, if you read my book, and I would love to do, if you read my book, i already have people getting about halfway through my book saying saying the answer. Getting about halfway through my book and saying, man, you just seem to criticize everything.
01:09:52
Speaker
And i and i and i I'm like, yeah, finish the book. Trust me, I get there. i'm I'm setting the stage um in an elevator. I mean, the answer is in an elevator. Think of all the things we talked about. Healthcare care is not great.
01:10:05
Speaker
Workforce is not perfect. Jobs are changing. We don't quite know how. Education is. The answer that I almost always give people is, in fact, right off the bat, you're wrong. Wrong. Here's what we're doing. You're wrong. Only he only to get them to go. Wait, what?
01:10:21
Speaker
No, let me explain what we're doing. no i you're I know you're wrong. I know what you're doing is wrong. In fact, that's why you called me. you're It's why you're asking me. Because what you're doing is wrong. and and it And it's just to, frankly, kind of do what I did in the book, which is we know there are better ways. We know there are better solutions.
01:10:38
Speaker
um We don't always know the right answer, but we know it's not as good as it could be. We know it's not working as well as it could be. And and so it's with with a lawmaker, with a city, with a startup, with a company, it's always to hang on, stop. What you're doing is not is not working.
01:10:54
Speaker
yeah just to make them go, what do you mean? And, and then my second favorite ah word is, is why, right? They'll explain themselves. They'll explain what they're doing. And I'll just say, why? Okay. Why?
01:11:08
Speaker
Why? And that, and that touches on what's called first principles thinking where you get down to the, what are we, what are we actually doing and why? And you just keep drilling in on that. And it and it enables us to, to then say, well, why aren't you?
01:11:21
Speaker
yeah it This thing is right here that would solve that problem. Put that in place. So you're wrong. Thank you why Why? And and here's here's what actually works better, right? not Again, not necessarily right. Here's what works better. Why on earth? Why aren't you doing that? Why aren't you using that? Yeah.
01:11:41
Speaker
Which you could definitely wrap up in about 60 seconds in an elevator. You're wrong. Why? And why aren't you doing this? um Tell everybody where they can find the book. ah Amazon is the easiest place. I think it's also on Goodreads. I'm not sure if it's on Barnes & Noble yet, but it should be. So Amazon for sure. And if you look up startup ecosystems,
01:12:01
Speaker
yeah Maybe throw my name on there, Paul O'Brien, because there are a couple books with a similar name. That's a good way to find it. I also have ah a very long-running website and and newsletter at seobrien.com.
01:12:16
Speaker
um And so if you want to hit that too, startupeconomist, seobrien.com, you can find the book there, but you can find a ah ton of other content. I get into infrastructure and startups and and ecosystems, obviously, very and and love covering things. So if anybody wants to chat or cover something with me, I'd love to hear from you and do that. Awesome.
01:12:36
Speaker
Five stars on Amazon. Thank you, Paul. Appreciate you for joining me. And, um, You know, not just because you're helping build the thing. Build the thing. thanks to all you watching and listening to Mustard Hub Voices behind the build. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss the next episode.
01:12:52
Speaker
ah Please visit mustardhub.com to learn more about what we do and discover how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge. Until next time.