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Debunking Leadership Myths
46 Plays1 month ago
I talked to Scott Allen about tackling some of the most persistent myths about leadership.
Why do these myths continue to hold sway, and how do they shape our understanding of what it means to lead?
Scott dives deep into the origins and impact of these myths, encouraging us to rethink traditional views on leadership.
Key questions explored:
- Are leaders really born, not made? Scott’s insights challenge this well-worn belief.
- How do we define leadership? Spoiler: it’s far more than just holding a title.
- Does charisma automatically make someone a good leader, or can it sometimes be a drawback?
- Why do so many leaders feel compelled to have all the answers? Scott turns this idea on its head.
- Should leaders always be ethical, and is there ever a place for lying in leadership?
Join us as we challenge these myths and offer fresh perspectives that will make you reflect on your own leadership journey. This episode is packed with ideas that could transform your approach to leadership.
Intrigued? Listen now and prepare to rethink what you thought you knew about leading.
Mentioned in the episode:
- The Leader’s Framework for Decision Making by Snowden & Boone – A must-read Harvard Business Review article exploring decision-making in leadership.
- Research on charisma by John Antonakis – Groundbreaking research on how charisma influences leadership from a professor at the University of Lausanne.
- Psychological Safety by Amy Edmondson – Learn more about Amy Edmondson’s pioneering work on creating environments where teams can thrive.
- Dissent in organisations by Megan Reitz – Explore Megan Reitz’s research on speaking up and dissent in the workplace, and how leaders can foster open debate.
Find out more about Scott Allen at scottjallen.net or connect with him on LinkedIn
Contact Me:
- Book your free 30-minute Leading Smarter Discovery Call https://calendly.com/visiblydifferentcorine/1-2-hr-discoverycall
- Download my Leader's Guide to Increasing Your Impact, Influence & Free Time https://www.visibly-different.co.uk/increasing-your-impact/
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who might benefit and don’t forget to leave a rating and review!
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Transcript
What is True Leadership?
00:00:00
Speaker
a Just because you have the title doesn't mean you are engaged in the activity of leading. You can have the position of authority, the title, the noun, leader, but are you actually engaged in the process of influencing others toward a common vision, the verb? I can develop and I can grow, I can learn. People will say, are leaders born or made? And oftentimes the answer is just yes. They are born and they are made.
00:00:31
Speaker
Welcome to the show. I'm Corinne Hines and this is the Visible Leader Podcast.
00:00:39
Speaker
I take a practical approach to leadership, unpacking the art and science of leading effectively. And together with my lovely guests, I explore topics like showing vulnerability without losing credibility and how to rethink performance by ditching those appraisals.
00:01:06
Speaker
On today's episode of The Visible Leader, I was joined by Dr. Scott Allen. He's a professor of management, a keynote speaker, and an author whose work focuses on developing leaders at every stage of the journey. Scott's work explores what leadership is and what it isn't, and this led us to a great conversation about debunking some of those myths that really hold people back, and the good news.
Leadership Myths and Realities
00:01:36
Speaker
If you listen to this and recognize yourself, then you will also notice that there were some common activities you could do, which will make you a much more effective leader straight away. So if that sounds interesting, then please listen on.
00:01:57
Speaker
i Hello, Scott. Welcome to the podcast. Good morning. Good afternoon. How are you? You're in the future. I am in your future. It's really lovely. Nothing's happened. So Scott, the subject of today's podcast is all about debunking myths. Yes. Why have we been drawn to this? Why are there myths around leadership?
00:02:27
Speaker
And it's such a good question. And, you know, I think like many complex questions, there's probably multiple reasons, right? As human beings, we like to simplify and make complex things and it makes sense of them in very simplistic ways. So I think that's potentially one reason.
00:02:44
Speaker
I think also, at least in the West, we tend to lionize individuals and kind of this hero type worship that we can engage in at times. And so I think that can also at times kind of simplify. But yes, it's so interesting. There are these myths that just don't necessarily go away. And so I'm excited to have a conversation about some of those today so that listeners can hopefully think about leadership in a little bit of a different way moving forward. Hopefully share it with the people they know and their children, et cetera, because I think sometimes these myths hold us back. I'm certain they do. And hold people back that are untraditional in maybe what we see as a leader. Yes.
00:03:31
Speaker
and actually as The world changes so quickly. We need these people. Exactly. We need to be challenged in these stereotypes. Okay. Number one myth. We've decided these ahead of time. They're not every single myth, but they're the ones we're most interested in. Do we need a drum roll or something? We we might need to add that in.
00:03:55
Speaker
Number one, very common. Leaders are born and not made. And before we start talking about that myth or that, or maybe it's not a myth, I think some of these are things that we're challenging and and maybe there's truth in some of them, sure but it's a potential myth. What is your definition of leadership? Because I happen to be reading, this would be a bit of a challenge now. You wrote this in a book, Scott, or not a book, sorry, an article. So you may or may not refer to this as a version, but what's your definition of leadership?
00:04:34
Speaker
So I think about leadership in a couple of ways. One definition could be leadership is the process of influencing others toward a common vision. Now, sometimes people get hung up on the word influence. So I think we could also say ah mobilizing, right? Leadership is the process of mobilizing others toward a common vision. So Greta Thunberg would be trying to mobilize others, right? And to some degree, there will there be some level of success or failure.
00:05:01
Speaker
But those are two kind of ways that I think about that it's an activity and it's a process and it's an influence process because can I use myself to influence others to see what I see?
Can Leadership Be Learned?
00:05:14
Speaker
And then a good friend of mine, Ron Riggio, he's a professor at Claremont McKenna College, and he says that leaders and followers are co-creating.
00:05:23
Speaker
So, a leader can't just, hey, here's my vision and then it's done. It's co-created by leaders and followers working together. So, process of influencing others toward a common vision and in many ways co-creating that with them because a leader or an individual, one person can't necessarily do it themselves. Now, we're going to get into some myths where maybe someone can, but we'll see where the conversation takes us.
00:05:50
Speaker
ah So thanks for that clarification. yeah yeah It does align with what you've previously said. Leaders are born not made. So when I sometimes meet people and I am coaching, I'm always coaching lead people in leadership roles. So in that way, I mean, people leaders tend to be in that in that category.
00:06:14
Speaker
And then sometimes I meet people and they've got something, they've got some thing, no management training. They may have never led anything and I can just feel it that, oh, we're okay here. We're in safe program hands. It's a vibe, you know? And sometimes I'll meet people that have got a big team and I think, ah, it's interesting.
00:06:37
Speaker
There's something here that makes this much more challenging for you than that other person I just spoke to. Well, that's a very common question. People will say, are leaders born or made? And oftentimes the answer is just yes. Yes, they are born and they are made. You know you could go to some studies on twins, on identical twins out of the University of Minnesota, longitudinal studies that have gone on for decades.
00:07:05
Speaker
And at least some of the research would suggest that it's about 70% learned or environment, 30% genetic inherent. So what would be some of the genetic components? Well, maybe stamina. Maybe I'm an individual who can work 18 hour days and I'm just built that way. I don't need a lot of sleep or potentially extroversion. So if I prefer extroversion and I am a person who gets energy from the outside world and I can spend hours and hours and hours mobilizing and influencing others and having conversations and actually that's energizing to me, well, you know, that potentially could be an advantage. I'm underlining and bolding could, okay? So there's that element.
00:07:51
Speaker
Now, the 70% environment piece, every one of us can learn, develop, and grow. I can improve my comedic timing if we're going to talk about charisma, because another myth at times is that something like charisma can't be learned. No, it can be. I can become a better communicator, a better public speaker. I can develop and I can grow. I can learn.
00:08:12
Speaker
So I think there's a whole bunch going on in that question, but the myth of leaders are born and they just have it and no one else does, it's completely false. So I think for a lot of people out there, there's there's hope in that because you don't have to be this stereotypical charismatic that again, in the West we tend to lionize some individuals that Oftentimes, some of those exemplars, they aren't helpful because they alienate a whole swath of individuals that have just as much to contribute in the world. They really do.
00:08:49
Speaker
Yeah. And it's where does leadership reside as well, isn't it? Because it doesn't have to be in the traditional places at the top of an organization with lots of people. So leadership as a characteristic, if you think about your definition, they don't necessarily have to be in hierarchically high up positions to be mobilizing and influencing towards that common goal.
00:09:18
Speaker
Karan, yes, exactly. And which which can be another myth, right? Oh, I don't have the title. and And sometimes I'm in organizations and people will literally look at me. It's called a leader identity. They'll look at me and say, well, I'm not the CEO. I'm not a leader. No, no, no. Actually, you're you're in charge of eight people. You're creating their day. You are. To them, you are shaping the weather patterns of this organization right now.
00:09:42
Speaker
and you are a leader in their eyes. You're the person who they are looking to. And so this whole notion, that that definition process of influencing others toward a common vision, that's my daughter when she was three on the playground grabbing four other kids and saying, let's go do this.
Everyday Leadership Examples
00:10:00
Speaker
I mean, that's that. Or at times I worked in a college of business I wasn't the dean, but that doesn't mean that in even brief moments, I couldn't make a statement, a statement that was latched on by five or six other people, and all of a sudden the conversation moved in that direction. So I think at times, leadership can happen in brief moments, and then maybe my statement catches a little bit of fire and changes the trajectory of the conversation, and then I step back into more of that followership role again.
00:10:30
Speaker
So yes, at times I think people think that they have to have the position or they have to have the authority, but great acts of good in world history. And we again, we can just go to Gandhi before he had a formal position of authority, or we can go to Mandela, or we can go back to Greta Thunberg who's trying to make a difference. No one anointed that Martin Luther King Jr. was not the leader, the the elected leader of the civil rights movement in the United States.
00:10:57
Speaker
He was an individual who gained influence and through that influence mobilized a number of people to see our country in a little bit of a different way. Now, what's interesting is we could get into really fun conversations because Malcolm X, for instance, was trying to do the same thing.
00:11:16
Speaker
why didn't he catch as much fire? Why didn't his message resonate as largely potentially as Martin Luther King Jr's? Well, that would be a fun conversation. And there's no right or wrong to that, but it's a fun thing to kind of discuss because some people tend to catch fire, some people ah struggle to. And so I think for me, it's damaging at times when people don't have that identity that they can make a difference, that they can have influence A goal of ours and our family was to get to all 50 states. And so we accomplished that goal and we traveled as a family. It's a core value of ours. We were just in the UK this summer and it was a brilliant, wonderful two weeks.
00:11:57
Speaker
My daughter came down after we accomplished the 50 states goal and she came downstairs one Sunday morning and she said, well, what's next? And I said, I don't know, I'm kind of out. What do you suggest? And she said, how about all the continents? That would be incredible for our family to experience. And in that moment, she's influencing me and my wife at the time to kind of see that as, oh, wow, that's kind of cool. That's, yeah, that would be fun, right?
00:12:25
Speaker
So it's a damaging myth at times that if you don't have the title, you can't have influence, right? I love it. We are definitely touching on more than one of our myths here, which is fine because they are interrelated. So you can't just like pick them out, and i but which which is what leadership is, isn't it? It's complex and it's yeah it's all intertwined. So Born Not Made, I think I had a bit of a, can you teach an old dog new tricks? Do you think you get to a point sometimes where that is more challenging and or is it a lifelong thing that actually there's always a way of dipping into this as a skill?
00:13:08
Speaker
I am going to argue that there is always a way, and I don't necessarily buy into the old dog new tricks. Now, as a hard and fast rule, I think that's damaging because again, every one of us can learn, develop, and grow. And you have people who have retired from their current position. A lot of baby boomers right now are retiring every day across the world.
00:13:32
Speaker
And they are taking on new careers. They are taking on second careers. And they're learning. And for those of them that are volunteering, maybe in their community, they're learning a new aspect. Maybe they're working with immigrants in the community and better understanding that issue. And that's changing their perspective, changing how they think and make sense of that whole concept.
00:13:57
Speaker
So I think for sure you can teach an old dog new tricks. I think that individual has to be open. They have to put themselves in the situation to learn that's maybe outside of their comfort zone. And are they aren't sitting at home with the television on for eight hours a day being fed you know confirmation bias.
00:14:17
Speaker
So I think there's some agency that the learner or the individual has to take that they're going to travel, even travel, as you know, is so incredible for changing our perspective on the world. But the person has to engage in that work. yeah So old dog new tricks. Sure. I think so.
00:14:36
Speaker
Because sometimes it might just be that I'm not getting the results I want and people are leaving my organization in mass and we can't retain younger employees. Well, maybe it took that for me to say, maybe we need to change the culture here. And the style I led in 1995 isn't appropriate for 2024.
Charisma in Leadership
00:14:56
Speaker
But again, there has to be some level of this person being open to learning. Because I think there are people, we have these cognitive biases that impact our ability to make sense of the world. It's called self-serving bias. So at times, I'm with organizations where comments are made like, and you heard this before with millennials, oh, millennials, they're terrible to work with. And now it's Gen Z's, of course. yeah yeah And if I kind of stay stuck in that,
00:15:22
Speaker
and I only see what's wrong with them and I can't look at what I'm doing, yeah well, then maybe I won't learn. But if when I'm not getting the results I want, I kind of get curious. I look at what maybe I need to own. I think you can learn. I think you can teach an old dog new tricks.
00:15:39
Speaker
Yeah, this dog has to be reflective and curious. And then you've got like a door that can be pushed open. Yes. There's a futurist named Peter Diamandis that I really love. And he says, look, our minds are neural nets.
00:15:56
Speaker
They're neural networks. and And what are we using to train that neural network? Am I training my neural network by sitting in front of the news eight hours a day and really just being fed what's wrong with the world? Or am I training my neural net by going out in the world, meeting people, learning, engaging, building relationships? And that's a totally different world. So what are we exploring ourselves to?
00:16:25
Speaker
Next one, we've covered it a little bit. So let's see if there is something around this that we haven't already looked at. So number two myth, leaders must be charismatic. So to be a leader is to be charismatic. And then the second piece here is, and if you did want to develop some more charisma, whatever that is, it can't be learned. So first of all, charisma, can you sum it up?
00:16:55
Speaker
charismas Charisma is a fascinating topic, it really is. It might be someone's optimism, it might be someone's sense of humor, but essentially this individual is attracting others for whatever reason that is. Now in some circles it could be their intellect.
00:17:12
Speaker
If it's an Albert Einstein, right? He had kind of a quirkiness and a brilliance about him that was attractive. It was his knowledge. Same thing with like a Stephen Hawking in some ways, right? That you don't have an individual who's traditionally charismatic as we would think about the person you know, at the podium, just inspiring. But there's different paths. So you have like an Angela Merkel, who probably was not all that extroverted, and in a traditional sense, isn't necessarily all that charismatic, at least in a public persona way.
00:17:46
Speaker
rising to the highest levels of power and authority. So there's many, many paths to the role, for sure. And so you don't have to have a traditional sense of charisma to move forward into formal positions of leadership. Again, sometimes that might make it a little bit easier. If you can kind of slide in and out of groups, build relationships, connect, use humor, use optimism, engage,
00:18:12
Speaker
Maybe it's how you communicate and how you speak. Well, those can be versions of charisma. So it can be helpful. But is it always needed? No. And people have moved up to the highest levels of authority and power in world history, and they didn't have a traditional sense of what we would define as charisma.
00:18:33
Speaker
Now, can it be learned? Yes. And again, the research fascinating article for listeners who'd like to explore this. Just look up John Antonakis. He's in Switzerland. A-N-T-O-N-A-K-I-S, John Antonakis. Charisma.
00:18:49
Speaker
And you'll see a TED Talk, and you can also find a Harvard Business Review article. And his research would suggest that it can be learned. You can put me in a comedy educational experience about improv. And I can get better at improv. I can improve. I might not be the world's best person at improv, but I can develop those skills. If it's if I'm ready to learn, if I'm motivated to learn, I can improve in those skills. that You can make me a better public speaker as well.
00:19:17
Speaker
So there's ways that we can improve charisma. I think people who have a definition or a rule in their head that that can't happen, it's false. Now, I want to say one other version of charisma here. There's individuals who, in a one-on-one or in a small group way,
00:19:34
Speaker
really are great at building relationships. And that's a different version of charisma, that there's an authenticity about them, that there's just a warmth about them. It's not a, again, I'm at the podium, but like a Brené Brown, who is self-admittedly fairly introverted, she has an incredible amount of charisma. and And in her case, it's kind of her vulnerability that attracts others.
00:19:58
Speaker
So for me, it's about kind of what's attracting others. And for everyone, it's a little bit of a different path. But again, I think it's limiting to think, oh, I could never do that, you know, her first TED Talk. There's other interviews with her where she reflects on that first TED Talk. And again, her vulnerability is just beautiful. And she's a method huge following as an influencer. She looks so different now as well, doesn't she? She's like her shift in how she holds herself.
00:20:27
Speaker
Yes, or or it could be like an Adele who has some incredible skill and just a great beauty in her singing that attracts others and that's her huge strength. Is that just skill and that ability? Like again, in Einstein, the skill and the ability, all of a sudden there's a charisma there, there's a spark there that makes people feel, well, that's another version that's attracting others, right?
00:20:56
Speaker
I also and was thinking about when it's a disadvantage because sometimes I will work in organizations and they have a very charismatic leader heading the business up.
00:21:11
Speaker
Big personality, very attracting of the type of thing we're talking about. But actually taking that person away, and because they're dependent on that charisma, being their superpower, sometimes that means that the rest of the board, the other people that report in,
00:21:32
Speaker
they're reaching for this thing. you know and actually Because they have got this charisma thing, sometimes they aren't distributing decision-making further down. They are the kind of solutions person. Everybody's turning to them and they're like this figurehead that they are now in a position where they're struggling to bring on the next generation because of this like super skill. Yes.
00:21:57
Speaker
I think just like every other aspect of a human, some of those strengths can be overplayed and it it can become a ah limitation. And so is that individual surrounding themselves with people who will provide them with authentic feedback? Is that individual have a coach like yourself who can provide some authentic feedback?
00:22:18
Speaker
Does that individual understand that it can't be all about them?
The Power of Questions
00:22:23
Speaker
Although that's seductive and that's wonderful and it feels great at times. Actually, that's not very sustainable if you're trying to leave a legacy. And so we have a lot of leaders like a Jack Welch, for instance, we could go down the list of some of these Charismatics who really didn't build the bench and it was solely dependent upon them.
00:22:46
Speaker
And, you know, I think that's that's too bad. And we can also get into a conversation around authenticity. Sometimes you have individuals who are incredibly charismatic, but there isn't much under the hood. ah You've worked with this individual where they were really awesome and fun and attracted others and blah, blah, blah, but they really didn't want to work. And they really weren't the sharpest tool in the shed. And, you know, there wasn't much else there.
00:23:12
Speaker
But charisma is a powerful force. I mean, if we go to US politics for a moment. Barack Obama versus Hillary Clinton a few years back, he had very few sources of power. He had less money. He had less experience. He had less of a network. And we could go down the list of what he had less of. But there was a charisma there that attracted large amounts of people. And you know he won the DNC. He won the nomination. And then he went on to John McCain, who had more experience.
00:23:46
Speaker
had a lot of money, had an incredible network, had been everywhere in the world, years of service, and he moved past him. And a lot of that was charisma that he attracted stadiums filled with people. Well, I don't care what your politics are, but it's interesting to observe. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:24:06
Speaker
Hello, it's Corinne here. Before you get stuck into the podcast, I wanted to tell you about something I've been working on recently that could help you get better results with key leaders in your team.
00:24:18
Speaker
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00:24:44
Speaker
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00:25:13
Speaker
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00:25:41
Speaker
Find me on LinkedIn, search for Corinne Hines. Also, the link will be in the show notes and I look forward to speaking to you then.
00:25:55
Speaker
Next, leaders need to have all the answers. This instinctively feels, obviously, they don't yet.
00:26:07
Speaker
We so frequently see leaders that are trapped and don't even realize they're trapped in that paradigm of offering answers and being very, very weak on good questions. So what why is it there?
00:26:25
Speaker
Well, sometimes the leader is in their own mind constructing the leader as the person with the answers. And again, that puts that individual in a box in their own head. And I think it's tragic. There's a really famous Harvard Business Review article by Snowden and Boone called The Leader's Framework for Decision Making. Listeners, if you love decision making and you're interested in that as a leader, this is a fascinating article. It's it's foundational.
00:26:54
Speaker
And they define four different types of problems, five actually, but I'm going to kind of focus on one. They're simple, complicated, and those generally have answers. Simple, it's easily answered. Complicated, maybe we're going to have to call an expert to get the answer. When you have a complex challenge or a complex problem, sometimes it's called a complex adaptive challenge.
00:27:15
Speaker
where there's no one in the world we can call to say, hey, how do I really develop a high functioning team among these six people? There's no one you can call in the world that says, do these three things and you're good, right? It just has no answer. Or how do I influence my child to achieve all A's in school? Well, there's no psychologist that's gonna say, if you do these four things, they'll get A's. There's an infinite number of variables.
00:27:44
Speaker
So when it's a complex problem or a complex adaptive challenge that we're working, it's about the leader elevating the right question for the team to work. And there's a woman named Amy Edmondson who does wonderful work. She's at Harvard and she talks a lot about psychological safety. And another friend of mine in your neck of the woods at Oxford, Megan rates and Megan writes a lot about kind of what happens when we dissent in organizational life.
00:28:14
Speaker
Because the leader, after elevating the right questions, like the most important questions that we should be giving the real estate and the time to, do we have a group of people that has the psychological safety to say, here's what I see. This is what I think. This is what I think we should do. I disagree with that. And are we setting up a ah space for us to kind of have that really, really difficult conversation so that we can come up with our best guess as the path forward?
00:28:44
Speaker
But you've been in meetings, I've been in meetings where the leader comes in with their own agenda, comes in with their own ideas, maybe ask the question, but they've already decided they aren't creating a space for that really. And and everyone stayed quiet. No one said, no one dissented. The leader thinks they have buy-in. The leader leaves the meeting. Four people go to the water cooler and they say, well, this is going to be a train wreck. And no one said anything in the meeting.
00:29:08
Speaker
And that's just tragic for a leader. The recipe is on the wall that you are about
Influence Beyond Authority
00:29:14
Speaker
to fail. It's not sustainable. So it's about elevating the right questions at times as a leader, understanding that you're limited in your own ability to make sense of the problem, creating the space. And Jeff Bezos kind of famously said,
00:29:27
Speaker
I like to sit back and watch them have the conversation and come up with my own perspective. He doesn't come in and just drive home his perspective. He likes to listen to the debate and then he speaks last. Now I'm not saying that's always appropriate, but that's a consideration for sure. Because you want to know what the team thinks and that they've had that debate. I think sometimes leaders put themselves in a trap and that trap is of their own making because they aren't willing to be vulnerable to say,
00:29:57
Speaker
You know what? I don't know what we should do here. What do you all think? And co-creating that path forward with the team authentically, like genuinely. And some red flags. A leader doesn't have that. That doesn't exist for a leader. That's psychological safety. Some of the red flags are when it's a pretty important topic, but there isn't healthy debate in the room.
00:30:26
Speaker
That's kind of an indicator that maybe you don't have the psychological safety. Or when you say, what are the downsides of moving in this direction? No one really has an opinion. No one really speaks up. Or another red flag is if you're doing all the talking as a leader in the meeting.
00:30:45
Speaker
And that's another red flag. And there's others, but sometimes leaders think they're supposed to have all the answers and they walk in. And especially if they're a little bit insecure and maybe they have some imposter syndrome and they're afraid to be vulnerable. Oof.
00:30:59
Speaker
Leadership today is so incredibly complex. Work from home, COVID-19, globalization, digitization. Just go down the list of the complex adaptive challenges leaders are facing. You have to have that psychological safety. So check out Megan's work and Amy's work. It's it's incredible work because it's critical for leaders to have that skillset today. I'm going to put everything that you're mentioning in the show notes so people can tap into it. Yeah.
00:31:27
Speaker
Leadership equals authority. What do you think some of the misconceptions around the relationship between leadership and authority? There were plenty of kings of England who had the position of authority, but they weren't leading anything.
00:31:45
Speaker
yeah They had the title. And again, as a coach and as an individual and and a student of organizational life, you have individuals who have the title and have the position.
00:31:56
Speaker
but either literally or figuratively, no one's behind them. In organizational life, it's a little bit more difficult because you have the bodies behind you, they're standing there, you're paying them and they don't wanna dissent, so they stand there and they nod, but are people really truly committed or are they just kind of complying, right?
00:32:17
Speaker
And so for me, when I think about this one, you can have the position of authority, the title, the noun, leader, but are you actually engaged in the activity of leading others, the process of influencing others toward a common vision, the verb? So we confuse the two. And you know sometimes people say, you know you're on LinkedIn and there's these memes that are overly simplistic.
00:32:42
Speaker
you know that kind of, again, try and simplify some of this. Leadership is action, not position, you know, stuff like that, that's just kind of like a, and like 10,000 people have liked it. Well, sometimes it's position. Sometimes the person has complete authority and power to make all kinds of decisions for others, but they don't feel influenced at all. They just have to because the person has the authority.
00:33:07
Speaker
But they're not influencing the hearts and minds of people, right? It's not a common vision, like we said in that definition. So this kind of like gets into that, do you have to have the position to lead? No, ah you don't. I mean, again, throughout history, people without the position have gained influence. Now, sometimes for horrible, terrible ends,
00:33:30
Speaker
Right? My definition that I shared with you has been used for evil. Just look at cult leaders, look at other individuals throughout world history that have gained influence and all of a sudden amassed a following, then maybe they gain formal authority and power and do horrible atrocities. But just because you have the title doesn't mean that you are engaged in the activity of leading.
Ethical Leadership Challenges
00:33:57
Speaker
So you're in a leadership job title role and you just have a feeling that you haven't won the hearts and minds, you haven't got the leadership, you've you've got the the job title, but other people aren't there following you. You're not influencing. What can you do?
00:34:19
Speaker
How I think about this, and I said it a little bit ago, I think one of the greatest assets of a leader is to ensure that they have some thinking partners that will give them authentic and real unfiltered feedback.
00:34:36
Speaker
So who are those thinking partners for you? And who are those individuals? It could be a psychologist, it could be a coach, it could be ah a spouse or a partner, it could be a colleague in another organization, but that's a beautiful question. I don't feel like people are in, and don't people are I don't feel like people are truly committed. I'm not getting through why.
00:35:00
Speaker
And that's a question that if you have an individual that is self-aware enough to kind of realize that, admit that, and do you have a team of people surrounding you who will give you that unfiltered feedback? Now, I've been in organizations where they don't have that. No one's willing to say that. No one's willing to give the the leader or the authority figure the bad news you know it's they give a speech it was horrible everyone is bored out of their mind and they step off the stage and they look at their handler and they say how'd that go and the person looks at him and says oh that was awesome
00:35:31
Speaker
you know yeah No one's willing to give them the bad news. The reality is you're in a position of power. Dan Goleman called it CEO disease. By the time it gets to you, it's been filtered. People aren't going to be totally honest and authentic with you. You have to chip away at that. So for me, that's number one. Who are your thinking partners and are you open to admitting that I don't have the people. They're not committed. They're just kind of complying. Their heart isn't in it. Again, that right there is a complex adaptive challenge. There's no person you can call in the world to say, what are the four things I need to do to get these 30,000 people rowing in the same direction and excited? No, you're in the realm of experimentation. You're in the realm of your best guess as to how to shift that.
00:36:20
Speaker
but you need some thinking partners because what you're doing right now isn't yielding the results you want. Why? Yeah. I think the fact that you might be asking yourself that question, you've taken a great big step, haven't you? Yes. That's the difference.
00:36:34
Speaker
And back to self-serving bias, the challenge can be that that leader, an immature leader or a leader who's not willing to admit that they don't have the hearts and minds of the people will blame the people. Oh, it's them. They're terrible. Oh, I can't stand Gen Z's and millennials. They don't get it. Well, okay, you can blame whole generations of people or you can but look within and maybe it's you.
00:37:01
Speaker
yeah But our minds, our minds will fool us. Our minds will fool us into, oh gosh, Gen Zs, you can't lead them. They're terrible. Ugh, nothing I can do.
00:37:12
Speaker
Right? Not me. Sorry. Moving on. yeah The possibly last, because I'm looking at the time and we've been having such a good conversation. I know we've got to finish soon. So let's see if in the next five minutes we can answer this one. Because I think this is really juicy. Leaders should always be ethical and never lie. Hit me Scott. In five minutes. Is this going to be the clip that you that you pull out?
00:37:43
Speaker
stan Okay, I am going to enter these waters very carefully, okay? In the course of world history, there are instances where manipulation, deceit, and lying have been for the greater good. And Machiavellianism maybe was in service of the greater good.
00:38:06
Speaker
And at the highest of levels, ah maybe it is a woman or a man protecting their family, and that's what they had to do to stay alive, or that's what they had to do to buy some more time.
00:38:21
Speaker
So obviously these are extreme examples, but for us to take that completely off the table, like altruism, you know, always love your neighbor or a constant categorical imperative, never lie or never act on ethically. Well, that takes a lot of options off the table in some pretty extreme instances, right?
00:38:46
Speaker
Churchill was using, at times, deceit in World War II. That was happening. So there are times and places. I think if you are going to act unethically, or if you are going to make decisions, are you super aware of the downsides? Are you super aware, and have you had the thinking partners surrounding you, making you very, very clear on what the downsides are?
00:39:12
Speaker
Now, in normal day-to-day interactions and organizational life, of course, ethical behavior and character and integrity are incredibly important. But I oftentimes, again, will get a little bit frustrated when these kind of just blanket statements are made, when over the course of world history, sometimes people have been placed in situations where they have to act against their values. They have to act what could be considered unethically. And leaders are put in horrible positions.
00:39:45
Speaker
where there's no good decision. It's the lesser of two evils. And at times, they are placed in situations where they have to make decisions that are pretty difficult and pretty challenging. Yeah, no, it's interesting. And I think the other side is complete transparency is a big subject.
00:40:05
Speaker
Yeah, but again, taken to an extreme, I mean, is the UK going to be completely transparent about every plan that it has in scenario plans? and No, you can't, because we are in a competition across the world, and we have to secure our people.
00:40:22
Speaker
And so again, leaders are placed in these very, very challenging kind of double bind situations where how do we be as transparent as possible? But do you want me to be transparent about why we held Jim accountable and he made, you know, an inappropriate comment to another colleague? Do we put that up on the website? I don't know. Yeah.
00:40:43
Speaker
These things can be taken to extremes and you have these competing commitments, privacy versus transparency, trade secrets versus transparency. So yeah, it's it's an interesting conversation. I think for me, it's, is the leader intentional? Are they aware of the downsides and the upsides of these potential decisions? Have they thought that through, had the conversation with their team, does the team feel like they can have the conversation?
Reflective Leadership and Growth
00:41:10
Speaker
And then again, sometimes we're making a decision of the best of two lesser options or two bad options. I think there's a thread across all of this, which is being reflective, being conscious of your biases, having great people that you can get really good feedback from. They seem to thread through all of the myths that we've explored today.
00:41:35
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely a ah good starting point. Are you surrounded by people who will be authentic with you, give you that feedback? Are you aware of the fact that you have, you suffer from 180, I think it is, cognitive biases that have been identified. Your thinking is limited.
00:41:53
Speaker
Your best bet, especially with these complex adaptive challenges, is having a team of people who can help you s think through some of these challenges. Otherwise, you're hanging out there and that doesn't feel very sustainable to me. Great place to end. Thank you for this whistle-stop tour of myths and there are others that we talked about that we just haven't been able to squish in. Maybe we'll have a part two. Yes.
00:42:23
Speaker
Really great to catch up with you, Scott. And I'll put everything in the show notes, but if you could just say, where can listeners find you? Yes. So scottjallon.net and LinkedIn, Scott J. Allen. Just look me up. I'd love to connect, have a conversation. Would love to hear your perspective as well. And Corin, I just really appreciate the opportunity today.
00:42:47
Speaker
Great. Well, I really enjoyed the conversation, so thank you very much. I know that the conversation will help many listeners who are looking to be more the leader they aspire to be. It's not easy. It's not easy. No, no that's probably one of the myths. Yeah. Yeah. I have great respect for anyone who raises their hand and says, you know what? I'm willing to to step up and lead. I really do.
00:43:13
Speaker
The bit that resonates with me most about my conversation with Scott is when he talked about the tired stereotypes some leaders make about whole generations of workers instead of reflecting on their own leadership ability to influence and mobilize. Thankfully, all the leaders I engage with are reflective. No, they don't have all the answers. I know they really shouldn't try.
00:43:42
Speaker
I hope you're inspired by this episode and you're currently looking around you to check that you've got the right thinking partners there to help expose any biases you have and really make you an even better leader.
00:44:01
Speaker
Please share this episode with anyone you think might benefit. Come find me on LinkedIn, Corinne Hines. I'd love to hear from you. I love hearing your suggestions for questions you like answered, which I can create an episode for. Thank you.
00:44:30
Speaker
I'd love to hear what you think, so please leave me a