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The Secret to Showing Vulnerability Without Losing Your Credibility
54 Plays8 months ago
Dr Katharina Schmidt completed an executive MBA at Kellogg Business School and then for the next 20 years had an international career with various professional services firms before she started her own business as an Executive Coach & Leadership Team Developer.
She’s lived all over the world and speaks 5 languages fluently. And she had a career as a professional volleyball player!
We talked about Confidence and Vulnerability – and how to show both as a leader to build trust in your team.
We covered:
- The link between vulnerability and psychological safety
- The right balance between confidence and vulnerability
- What being a vulnerable leader actually sounds like
- How imposter syndrome fits into the picture of confidence and vulnerability
- What experiments you can try that will encourage you (and everyone around you) to be more vulnerable and build trust
Find out more about Dr Katharina Schmidt: https://www.inspirationanddiscipline.com
Read more of her articles: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbescoachescouncil/people/katharinaschmidt1/
And connect with her:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-katharina-schmidt-psyd-343612/
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Transcript
Vulnerability as a Leadership Tool
00:00:00
Speaker
Vulnerability as a leader, it's not easy and it's for many people, it's really counterintuitive and it is a delicate act. And when I say it like that, it almost sounds like it's a tool, but if as a leader, you're able to find entrances in your own vulnerability and your own vulnerable behavior, it is an amazing trust builder.
00:00:31
Speaker
Welcome to The Visible Leader, a podcast that challenges conventional leadership and inspires you to create a workplace culture that empowers your team. Join me as I talk to thought leaders and changemakers about practical ways to apply new learning and rethink the status quo. Get ready to become a visible leader in your organization.
Dr. Katarina Schmidt's Journey
00:01:00
Speaker
What do you think about being vulnerable? Does it fill you with horror and fear? You've probably heard of psychological safety and you're probably all striving for it in your teams. But are you really doing anything different that enables it to happen? Vulnerability creates more trust, which creates more psychological safety and
00:01:28
Speaker
you'll have more engaged people and higher performance. So it's definitely something worth striving for, but how do you get it whilst also appearing credible, visionary and projecting confidence when you need to? That's what I'm talking to Dr. Katarina Schmidt about today. We're going to talk about some small steps you can take straight away.
00:01:56
Speaker
it's not scary. And actually I think you can try them out at home with your partner or your lovely teenage children and see how you get on being a little bit more vulnerable and what impact that has on other people. Today I'm talking to Dr. Katerina Schmidt, who I met
00:02:22
Speaker
many years ago when we did some coach training together. And I really wanted to invite her onto my podcast, partly for selfish reasons, because she's lush, but also because she really knows her thing about this subject we're going to cover today. So I know you're going to come away with some actionable insights, which is really important for this.
00:02:49
Speaker
So Dr. Katarina Schmidt completed an executive MBA at Kellogg Business School, and then she spent the next 20 years with an international career with various professional services firms before she started her own business as an executive coach and leadership team developer. She has lived all over the world.
Understanding Vulnerability in Leadership
00:03:12
Speaker
She speaks five languages fluently, but
00:03:17
Speaker
What really caught my eye was that she had a career as a professional volleyball player. Who knew? So welcome, Katarou, welcome to my podcast. Thank you so much, Karine. We are going to tackle the subject of confidence and vulnerability and how those two things come together as a leader. But quickly first, how long were you a professional volleyball player?
00:03:48
Speaker
I mean, if you count the beginnings, I started when I was 12 and I ended my career at 32 or something. And then there were two years that I'm exceptionally proud of that I played a one on Gran Canaria, which is one of the Canary Islands and one in Barcelona, which I played together with my not yet then husband at a club. And it was amazing.
00:04:18
Speaker
Oh, that's amazing. I love these details. I'm finding out about you. So back to the subject. What do we mean when we say vulnerability in the context of leadership? Brenna Brown, of course, is the queen of vulnerability, and I think we should give her credit for that. She defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure.
Creating Open Dialogue in Teams
00:04:48
Speaker
All of those are by nature, not things that we associate with leadership.
00:04:57
Speaker
uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure. And I can make a step further. The other woman that has really coined the outcomes of vulnerability, psychological safety is Amy Edmondson. And she said, if you're able to say, I don't know, I need help, I made a mistake and I'm sorry.
00:05:24
Speaker
Those are the, if you want to call it like that, operationalizations of the big container of vulnerable leadership. And I want to say this right of the get-go. Vulnerability as a leader, vulnerable behavior as a leader. I wrote my doctoral dissertation on the effects of vulnerable leadership behavior on psychological safety.
00:05:51
Speaker
It's not easy and it's for many people, it's really counterintuitive and it is a delicate act. And when I say it like that, it almost sounds like it's a tool, but if as a leader, you're able to find entrances in your own vulnerability and your own vulnerable behavior, it is an amazing trust builder.
00:06:20
Speaker
Trust is important for so many things, psychological safety being one.
00:06:28
Speaker
I think the term psychological safety is used so frequently now. I hear it so many times. Oh yeah, we've done a course on psychological safety. We're really psychologically safe in this team. And I'm like, oh, interesting. You know, I'm kind of curious, like how that's showing up for them and what they actually mean. And then, unfortunately, sometimes I see a lot of
00:06:54
Speaker
behavior in that team that shows that people really aren't showing up and saying their things. So it's, it's an interesting one that, so just in case people haven't totally understood the psychologically safe term, can you, can you just define it for us? Seems that's what you did. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I'm, I don't want to throw.
00:07:17
Speaker
Scientific definitions of people. Psychological safety is a state in which a team, and I would say it is ongoing work. You're never there. Like a happy relationship. Otherwise, if you have done the course and you're like, oh, we're psychologically safe. It's like putting a tutu on a dog and expecting the dog to be a ballerina. It is ongoing work. And our psyches, let's say like that, most
00:07:47
Speaker
psyches of individuals who work in organizations that we work with a lot are not by nature comfortable with the types of behavior that are needed. And let's define psychological safety, as you ask. It's a state in which people feel safe to speak up, to challenge, and to give their opinion.
00:08:13
Speaker
And it is usually a team in which the leader is aware of the power differential that the formal authority gives him. And let me give you one actionable example. If you want to have a real dialogue about a decision that you want to take and the options that there are and the data that people have to make those decisions, as a leader, speak last.
00:08:41
Speaker
Because what you say is so influential that it'll prime and frame what everybody else will say. This is one example.
00:08:52
Speaker
and invite everybody to say something, even the people that are introverted, and maybe you can give them different entrances. You can give them some time or you can give people time to think, write, and then share, which is a wonderful way to have a psychologically safe discussion. Let's break that one down. So that's allowing people a moment to think.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah. Potentially allowing them a moment to write that thought down so that they've captured it and they're not influenced by that group thing. And then allowing sharing in a way that doesn't dominate with one loud voice. Yeah.
00:09:37
Speaker
And I love, I call it think, write, share. Even when I'm on Zoom with teams, I'll make people repeat, repeat after me, think, write, share. And it's a minute to think. It's not like hours. It's a minute to think, then everybody writes stuff down online. You can do that on wonderful visual tools like Miro, Miro, whatever, whatever you do.
00:10:03
Speaker
And only then you share. You prevent groupthink, you prevent the effects of power differentials, and you make sure that the people who need a little bit of time have time. And it's not always the ones that have the ability, which is amazing, to think out loud and have the courage to be the first to speak. It's not always them who will crime where the dialogue goes.
00:10:31
Speaker
Lovely. I think the share piece being that everyone is going to share, there's not a place for sitting and allowing that conversation to go ahead. Like you say, in a very safe way, that's vulnerable, isn't it? Knowing that actually in this meeting, there's that expectation that we are all going to share. It doesn't matter if it's not the right answer or you're not sure whether it's going to chime with the team.
00:11:01
Speaker
it's allowing for that type of vulnerability. So vulnerability, you've marked off those things that allows people to be wrong, admit they were wrong. Shock, horror. How does it show up? If you think about a leader that has got that balance right,
00:11:27
Speaker
If I was a fly on the wall, what would I be looking if I saw a leader that had? We're talking about this combo of confidence with vulnerability. What does it look like if I was looking down on somebody that's doing it really well?
Balancing Confidence and Vulnerability
00:11:43
Speaker
That is such a big question, Karine, and I love it.
00:11:49
Speaker
If you look at the polarity, sometimes the polarity by the way is called confidence, humility. There are other ways, but let's call it confidence versus vulnerability. It is one, I would say of the bigger leadership polarities or paradoxes. There's participative versus directive. You're not going to be participative if the house is burning. You're just going to say this and this and this is what we're going to do.
00:12:16
Speaker
There is, which many of our clients struggle with, there's deliberate versus emergent. We still believe that we live in a controllable, predictable world in which deliberate three-year strategic planning works. Well, we all know by now that the world has become more emergent.
00:12:42
Speaker
and that we all need to add emergent, which in some worlds is called agile, flexible ways to deal with our strategy and that it's much more about experimenting and trying things out as opposed to planning and deliberately pushing towards execution. So confidence
00:13:03
Speaker
versus vulnerability is one of the many leadership paradoxes. And your question was, how does it look like? I would say there is definitely not a 50-50. Because what people expect of their leaders, we all know that. The research shows leadership is associated by people with dominance and unfortunately still masculinity.
00:13:32
Speaker
which can be found in women as well, by the way, but it is very much associated with someone who has all answers, who knows where to go, who's charismatic. I would say that a good balance in that polarity looks
00:13:50
Speaker
like someone who manages that delicate act that brings confidence that we together will find answers, that it is okay to make mistakes, who shares their own mistakes or fuck-ups, and really explicitly does that, that occasionally
00:14:13
Speaker
gives insight in how does it look from the inside, sharing personal stories. And again, it is a delicate act. I have heard, I had coaches on calls or on sessions who have experienced that
00:14:36
Speaker
sharing vulnerability did not go down well. So that's why it's called a risk. And that's why the psyche is not going there. It is uncertain. It is emotional exposure. It makes you vulnerable. And our psyche, and especially when we're in leadership positions, has been trained to cover, and Bernie Brown calls it armor for that vulnerability. So it looks like someone who is
00:15:07
Speaker
emotionally mature enough and safe enough, psychologically safe in him or herself to share stuff that makes him or her emotionally exposed that might be risky. Someone who asks for help, someone who will say, I don't know yet, let's figure it out together.
Practical Steps for Leaders
00:15:28
Speaker
Someone who says, Hey, I'm sorry. I think I didn't handle this well. Someone who says, wait a mistake there.
00:15:36
Speaker
and not all day long. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? It is that balance. And like you say that those percentages, if there is an imbalance too much in that direction, some of those behaviours might push us into a direction of losing credibility if it's overplayed.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah. Not having confidence. And there is wonderful that I actually love. It was, I think it was 10,000 people that they did their qualitative research with. It's from Gallup. And they asked, what do you, like the question was, what was one thing that a leader did in your life that you still remember? And they synthesized it and they came with four aspects that people expect from their leader. Stability.
00:16:28
Speaker
which relates to confidence, compassion, hope, and trust. So you don't want to be vulnerable to a degree that you undermine those expectations.
00:16:45
Speaker
And it is a delicate balance and it is different for every human. So it's also a dance where you need to figure out how much vulnerability can that person handle and how much can I share with each person, which I would say is another leadership paradox. You don't have to go there, but it's adaptation versus authenticity.
00:17:08
Speaker
How much can I bring of myself and how much do I adapt to what someone else is needing? There's so many leadership paradoxes in our work as leaders. Yeah, I love that one. I love that authentic. Well, I mean, I've kind of always thought about that bit. The authentic side of things, if that is
00:17:33
Speaker
pushed quite far, then you might end up with a, well, this is what I'm like and take me as I am, you know? And actually that's lacking in growth and that ability to adapt and grow your own leadership. Yeah. Say it again. It's authenticity. Absolutely. This is who I am. And especially as a leader, I am willing.
00:17:59
Speaker
to adapt to you so that you can bring your best self and you can do your best work and you can work hard on achieving results. So you're a leader, you're in this society and you're kind of full on confident, but you've realized that actually that's limiting. It's limiting your ability to
00:18:25
Speaker
build trust, build psychological safety. So you want to step out of it a bit. And I think it would be useful to think what would some small steps you could do, practical steps you could do that would not look like you've turned into an alien because
00:18:44
Speaker
It's important, I think, for your own self that you don't have a complete change of personality. But maybe there's some things, and you've already included a few things in there about the thing, right? Share and things like that, which are kind of opening out this more of a participative way of being. Have you got any other small steps this leader could take tomorrow? Yeah.
00:19:09
Speaker
So the most important step I would say, and it's the step that you and I love to take with people, is to do introspection and to reflect on your own vulnerability, on your triggers, on what costs me energy and why is that? When do I become defensive? And why is that? What is being attacked in me?
00:19:33
Speaker
I would say, and luckily there is more and more companies that believe that good leaders need to do introspection. And that's why executive coaching, leadership coaching, team development is working and is growing. It's doing the work with yourself.
00:19:56
Speaker
to find your own edges and your own vulnerabilities. And then I would say, because I'm with you, if you have always been this charismatic, shining, I have all the answers. Come, I have a big shoulder leader. It could be a big contrast if all of a sudden you have decided I'm becoming or I'm
00:20:24
Speaker
exhibiting more vulnerable behavior, that it can be a contrast. And so I would say,
00:20:35
Speaker
a very, very good one to start with. After you've done your reflection, you keep doing your reflection. It's not that you're ever, ever there. You've reflected, it's not. I've reflected, I'm good now, thanks. And it's life. And life, if you put yourself in high stakes situations,
00:20:57
Speaker
Life will throw stuff at you that you can learn from. It's all the things, all the events, all the situations that trigger you, that create thoughts and emotions in you. One is listen more. Listening in itself is an act of vulnerability because you open up, you show that you're willing to listen to others, you show that you don't have.
00:21:24
Speaker
all answers and you might be convinced or you might learn something from someone else. Just consciously listen more. And like when I invite them to experience with listening, for example, by observing how much do I talk and how much do I listen and then giving me a percentage in their meetings.
00:21:48
Speaker
And there really still is a lot of leaders out there who talk on average too much. And when the stakes get higher, they talk more. Out of the belief that when I talk, I have more influence and I will
00:22:04
Speaker
push the dialogue and the action and the execution into a certain direction. Well, there's research that shows that listening is more influential in some situations than talking, and that we're only talking to people without making them think about something, asking a question, or transforming what you say into something that the other person has to think about, which usually happens through a question or silence. If you don't do that,
00:22:32
Speaker
your talking is less effective. By the way, there's also research which you probably know that shows that listening creates likeability and likeability is a part of engagement. So listening, first strategy, asking for help, delegating more and really doing it in a way in which you say, I would love to have you help on this one or
00:23:01
Speaker
Hey, Corinne, I would love for you to think with me on that one. We have done this and this and this. What is your perspective on this? Just inviting people to think along with you, which again then involves real listening and being with that other person and wanting to understand her. And then if you want to take it a step further,
00:23:29
Speaker
Let it come out of your mouth. Hey, I don't know it. Let's figure it out together. Or...
00:23:36
Speaker
I have one amazing, she's a female leader. I would say vulnerability is a behavior that is more feminine versus masculine, which is the confidence part. And as a society, we value more the confidence part. And that female leader, by the way, she's very, very confident in what she does, but she will make it a habit.
00:24:05
Speaker
to say, sorry, people, I messed that up. She will, and small things, big things, small, it's not like, it's not, hey, I messed up our 2023 results, but it's, I didn't communicate that well enough, or I think I could have been clearer in my expectations of this meeting, stuff like that. And by that, she gives others permission to do that too.
00:24:35
Speaker
I'm just pulling you away from this episode because I want to share with you how you can get a copy of the free guide that I've created in which I share with you several of the techniques that I use with my coaching clients today and that you can use too, which will help you create more of an impact as a leader, have more influence and the holy grail, have more time away from the doing.
00:25:04
Speaker
You can use this time for key things like focusing on strategic thinking or going for a bike ride. If you want to grab the free guide, check out the show notes and click on the link.
00:25:25
Speaker
I think the examples you gave, they're so manageable tomorrow, aren't they? They're not like, you have to go on a training course and you're going to have a really complicated model to follow that you're going to need to remember in the moment. They're very common sense.
00:25:43
Speaker
but very underused qualities often. So listening, being one, talking too much, hogging the dialogue. All of that is, people know this, but actually having a go at doing something different. I love that thinking partner. I love that way of, this is something that's happening. And that could happen at like CEO level,
00:26:13
Speaker
talking to anyone in the organization and inviting someone to be a thinking partner at any level and how powerful that would be, how you would feel if, you know, your views and genuinely being sought as well. And then the person isn't just going, yeah, but we tried that or, you know, shut down. Yeah, that is another one that many leaders tend to forget in a high stakes
00:26:43
Speaker
time short world where we need to make results faster, it is to postpone a decision and say, let's chew on this. Let's take the decision next time. So that for you feels like something that's lacking at the moment in business. Oh yeah.
00:27:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think we try to pull on grass to make it grow faster. Sometimes time is an invaluable resource that'll create more clarity. It is how the brain works. So imagine we're in a meeting where five people, not too many, because that doesn't work.
00:27:30
Speaker
five, six people optimal size to really take important decisions. And we exchange data points and our perceptions.
00:27:37
Speaker
Maybe we create a little bit of friction because we have like opposing views and people have interests. It's about budget and it's about money and, oh, you're going to take something from me. It is those emotional triggers that are in the room because it really means something for power. And we do, none of us likes to give up power.
00:28:02
Speaker
And if then, as a leader, you're able to say, hey, this is what I hear, this is what I feel, which already is vulnerability, because you're not saying, okay, I know the answer, we're going to do this. But just a tent, like if your brain is constantly under pressure, and most leaders that we work with,
00:28:23
Speaker
their brains are constantly under high-stakes pressure.
The Role of Reflection and Personal Stories
00:28:27
Speaker
It is so easy to just want to get the decision done and off your table. Sometimes, I'm not saying all the time, I'm not saying we're here to slow down completely, but sometimes we need to slow down to speed up. And if you give all the brains at the table
00:28:45
Speaker
a moment to reflect and especially then if you have a culture of reflection and the leaders that have been emotionally triggered have been able to reflect, the decision becomes better and it becomes executable faster. Everything you're saying here, I think there's a place that we can practice all this stuff, isn't there? There's a place that we can practice this lovely listening, this being vulnerable,
00:29:16
Speaker
asking really good questions, and I'm thinking in our partnerships, our relationships with our teenagers. Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can, you know, I don't know if you're the same as me, Katrin, you might not be, but sometimes I'm, I'm really good at listening when I'm at work.
00:29:40
Speaker
And then I get home and I get triggered and I bite someone's head off. And I think, oh, my clients could see me now. I think they're impressed. I'm so with you. And my 15 and 16 year old sons have been my biggest teacher. And one of the things that I actually realized in that process of doing my research around vulnerability,
00:30:06
Speaker
is that we tend not to share our vulnerabilities with our children. We do not talk about those moments of extreme adversity in our adolescent years or during our studies. And I have two sons and I can do a lot, but I cannot be a male role model. And my husband is even worse than me because he's one of those who practices
00:30:32
Speaker
like knowing where to go and confidence and the next decision every day. He's one of my biggest research objects. And us becoming aware of that and becoming like baby steps and practicing with sharing our own vulnerabilities and the moments of adversity and not knowing and not having an answer or feeling hurt by whatever beautiful, lovely teenage son stayed to us.
00:31:03
Speaker
has been an amazing journey. And I think a journey in which they see us more as humans, and that's one of the big outcomes of my research. It creates humanity in the relationship between a leader and their follower. It creates more equality, creates safety, and it creates more psychological safety. Yeah. Being more human.
00:31:32
Speaker
One question that I often ponder over is, what are your views about leaders being friends with the people in their team? I have seen you two on that, on LinkedIn. And hey, let me be vulnerable here. I don't know. I really, I know I have seen it. I have seen it work out. I have seen it break friendships.
00:32:03
Speaker
It is so challenging. I mean, fire someone that you love.
00:32:10
Speaker
do something to someone that is one of the most traumatic experiences which firing is that you love. But then would that mean that I'm not going to be friends with you because I might have to fire you someday? I don't know. I don't have the answer. I just know it's like vulnerability. It's delicate. It's challenging. It's not easy.
00:32:37
Speaker
I tell everybody that when I see it, I don't tell them what to do, be friends or not be friends. And I've had it. And I broke people's hearts in leadership positions when I was friends with them. And I had to take decisions that they really didn't agree with.
00:33:00
Speaker
I think where I've seen it over the years, because obviously it has been one of those things that I've chewed over, I think it creates a additional possible complication
00:33:13
Speaker
but it could create additional positive, so it's got possible complication, probable positive for having that bond and that loyalty, but it definitely takes a type of leader that can have a difficult conversation and is very straightforward. And I think if you can't do those things really well, you're in dangerous territory. Because I've seen leaders do it really well. They're really straightforward.
00:33:42
Speaker
and they can say what needs to be said, and they can put aside that, and everybody knows where they are. The boundaries are really clear. And I look at that and think, wow, that's really impressive. But to be able to juggle those two things, you have to be pretty good. My imposter syndrome is my superpower. My small imposter syndrome is not overwhelming. I keep it in check.
00:34:09
Speaker
but I don't mind it being there. I'm okay. It gets me doing stuff. How does that fit with confidence and vulnerability, do you think? I have the tendency now to ask more about your superpower. Let me stay with your question. I would say vulnerability is an enabler.
00:34:36
Speaker
for your imposter syndrome. And by the way, I have it too. I would say that among high achievers, it's very prevalent. Research says 70% of people will experience imposter syndrome at some point in their life among high achievers. It's a lot more prevalent. I'm rarely on the phone or on a call or in a session with someone.
00:35:04
Speaker
that does not at some point have it, because we tend to up the stakes. And when you up the stakes, there is intrinsic insecurity. You cannot up the stakes and not encounter insecurity at some point. So I would say it is an enabler. Vulnerability is an enabler for your imposter syndrome to keep it in check, to talk to it, to manage it, to cope with it, and to make it your superpower.
00:35:34
Speaker
No, I love that connection. That's great. And when we think of, I don't know if you have a leader in mind that you think gets that balance really, really well, who would you pick on? You're going to laugh at me and I don't know, but I know that you play soccer. In America we say soccer, football. Ted Lasso. Ted Lasso has been one of my biggest inspirations.
00:36:03
Speaker
in terms of a man bringing vulnerable leadership styles into the world, vulnerable leadership behaviors into the world. And there's so many examples. When I defended my doctoral dissertation, I used him as an example, and there's this one example where his
00:36:24
Speaker
a third trainer that he has given the opportunity to go from the janitor to the trainer. His name is Nate, and he's starting to fight Ted.
Examples of Vulnerable Leadership
00:36:35
Speaker
And at a certain point, he goes to Nate, Ted Lasso goes to Nate, and he says, hey, what is going on with you? What do I have to learn here? And it's a very intense situation. And then Nate explodes and really,
00:36:55
Speaker
gives Ted Lasso feedback that is painful and he takes it and he's silent. And I mean that, what do I have to learn here is a wonderful way to make yourself vulnerable. What can I do differently instead of what is going on with you?
00:37:15
Speaker
And there is a ton of examples of well-known leaders who show vulnerable behaviors. I think Tim Cook at some point, the CEO of Apple at some point,
00:37:28
Speaker
declares that he's gay, vulnerability, very exposed position. And I see it because I've been so focused on it. I see it in small situations, in a team development, but I also see it in bigger contexts. Zillow had an algorithm where they would predict housing prices, but the algorithm was a failure. And the Zillow CEO just admitted that. In analyst conversation, in public,
00:37:57
Speaker
and i think that was a very good way of dealing with failure and and also normalizing failure we live in a vuca world volatile uncertain complex ambiguous and hyper connected. And there is no company and no human and no decision.
00:38:16
Speaker
that can live without vulnerability. We cannot act in our world without vulnerability. And acknowledging that and saying, hey, I fucked this up. Or it is a failure, and I'm not going to talk around it. Not a good decision and not good execution, and I'll take responsibility for that. I think it's incredibly strong. Of course, you don't want to do that every week.
00:38:43
Speaker
Because then it's questionable if you're in the right position. But if we want to bring more experimentation, like mindsets of experimentation into our work, which I think I need it in a VUCA world, we need to assume our own vulnerability. Oh, my boys, only who does nothing.
00:39:07
Speaker
does not make mistakes and they can, I always say, only does nothing, does not make mistakes. So I try to normalize it. No, I love it. My daughter is, she sometimes says that she's failed at lots of the things she's tried, you know, she's tried skateboarding, she's tried this. And I'm like, you've had a go, like a load of things. And now you've found out the things that you,
00:39:35
Speaker
Really enjoy, you know, it's that reframe, isn't it? For our teenagers. Yes. You've included so many actionable things that people can try, some ways they can think, who they can practice on. Anything else that you think might be a good takeaway from this conversation that people can apply?
00:39:59
Speaker
Maybe one last thing that we didn't dive into. There's so many things that you and I could still explore. If you're a leader in nature, you're in a position of power. And power has effects on others. There is a lot of research that shows when a person of power is in the room, we do
00:40:21
Speaker
amazing things, sometimes unexplainable, irrational things. But power also does something to the brain and to your behavior. And one of the things that research has shown it does is that we lose a little bit of our empathy. The more power leaders have, the less empathetic they behave. And I would say, vulnerability, reflecting on your own vulnerability with someone in a safe spot.
00:40:52
Speaker
is an antidote to the effects of power. I think if leaders listen to this and they take one thing, it would be pause. Pause and reflect. I love that. It's so easy to just be piling into the next day. Yeah, yeah, line everything up.
00:41:14
Speaker
So pause as we come to an end. I knew we would have a wonderful conversation and I knew it would be packed with insights for my listeners. So I'm really grateful that we got this chance to talk. Thank you. Thank you, Corinne. And thank you for reconnecting with the topic of my doctoral journey. Really, really enjoyable.
00:41:44
Speaker
And one last thing, if people want to find you and find more things that you've written and said because you're fabulous, where can they look?
00:41:54
Speaker
Ooh, that is a lovely ego question. I publish on Forbes and I have a lovely website, which I don't know. It's wonderful. It's insightful. There's definitely inspiration on there. It's called www.inspirationanddiscipline.com.
00:42:16
Speaker
And from there, you can either hop on my Forbes publications or on my LinkedIn. And on LinkedIn, I regularly publish some of my leadership inspiration and discipline thoughts, insights, and I think it's all like you. It's very practical. It's actionable. It's usually one thing, and there is always invitation to experiment and expand your own repertoire.
00:42:46
Speaker
Well, I shall put those in the show notes and thank you very much. Thank you Corinne. What I really loved about that conversation is that it's clear that being a vulnerable leader has business benefits, but it's not about falling on your sword and being okay with repeatedly making mistakes, but it is okay to try something and miss the mark.
00:43:12
Speaker
And it's useful to ask, what could I have done differently when you see someone else miss the mark? We want to be confident in our leaders, but if they share when they don't have the answers or they seek somebody out to help them find the best solution, that will only increase our confidence in them. So what are you going to do differently?
00:43:34
Speaker
Katerina's suggestion, which I love, is to start with yourself. Easiest place to start experimenting. Start reflecting. Think about how you can be a better listener. One thing you can try, don't interrupt. I know this is hard. You're enthusiastic. But allow space for somebody to talk and don't jump in with your solutions. Generally, people are coming to you
00:44:03
Speaker
Not because they want you to solve the problem, because they just want to think things through. Now I would love to hear what resonated most from this discussion. So please share with me one thing that resonated most and the one thing you're going to do differently. You'll find my details in the show notes. And finally,
00:44:28
Speaker
I would love to hear your feedback, so please leave me a review. Thanks for listening to the Visible Leader podcast. To stay up to date with the latest episode, hit the subscribe button. And I'd love to hear what you think, so please leave me a review. If you have any questions or comments, reach out to me. Cornhines on LinkedIn.